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Hams -- File Written Testimony on HOA Restrictions!!

Discussion in 'Amateur Radio News' started by W6EM, Sep 9, 2012.

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  1. K2NCC

    K2NCC Ham Member QRZ Page

    Personally, I could ask nothing more from you on this topic. Thank you.
     
  2. W4BUZ

    W4BUZ XML Subscriber QRZ Page

    Sounds great, Cheers :D
     
  3. NN4RH

    NN4RH Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    I doubt if towers next door lowers "property values" directly. What it probably will do is reduce the number of potential buyers. People who don't want to live next to a tower wouldn't buy the property at any price. That might have the indirect effect of giving buyers an advantage in price negotiations but not necessarily.


    As far as the county property tax assessments are concerned, it makes zero difference whether there's a tower next door or not.
     
  4. W6EM

    W6EM Ham Member QRZ Page

    Tim: Don Schellhardt, KI4PMG's testimony acknowledged your Petition in his testimony. Here's an excerpt from it:


    `"1. The FCC’s key recommendation -- that no new actions should be taken, by either Congress or the Commission, to restrain over-regulation of ham antennas by HOAs -- is wildly inconsistent with most of the information that the FCC received in this Docket.
    "Over 200 public comments were received in Docket 12-91. One of these filings, submitted by the AMERICAN RADIO RELAY LEAGUE (ARRL), was in turn based on more than 1,200 reports that the ARRL collected from individual hams. Counting this indirect participation in the Docket, through the ARRL, over 1,400 commenters made their views known to the FCC.

    "This number does not include the 3,300 people who signed a Petition submitted to the FCC by one individual ham ... "

     
  5. G4OBB

    G4OBB Ham Member QRZ Page

    This is really a simple matter...you get NOWHERE in this world without fighting...HARD.

    Guess it all depends how dedicated you are , and how much you BELIEVE in what you are doing , and why...
     
  6. N2ZNC

    N2ZNC Ham Member QRZ Page

    Years ago I lived in a development where they had HOAs. I wasnt overly concerned with the antenna issue until, I was told that If I wanted to build my deck it had to be the same decks that everyone else had. I couldnt change my front door cause it had to be the same as everyone's else's, couldnt paint my house any differently, all the windows had to be the same.. So I sold, and got out.. Never again would I buy a place that had an HOA..
    Now to the Amateur radio issue: As an emergency provider for over 25yrs, in NYC, I can tell you that Amateur Radio will have very little if any use, since NYC has the most advanced communication systems and redundant systems in the world.. So while certainly there may be room here for amateur radio in some aspects, the fact is that it will be of no use here. Now I know that in other parts of the country where these type of service are lax, it is a totally different issue, so certainly Amateurs probably play a big role.
    But lets face it, even in the event of a major emergency in rural parts of the country, if amateurs play any role, it probably wont be utilizing their stacked beams that they would want if the HOAs are eliminated.
    If anything, things like field day, where amateurs can learn how to set up portable communication systems would be most useful.
    And realistically VHF/UHF systems are most useful and where it would be at..

    So Im not sure, how trying to eliminate HOAs with the use of EMMCOM or other types of emergency preparedness reasons would be helpful. After all, people who live in complexes with HOAs basically agreed to them. If you dont want to have them dont purchase or move into them.

    I mean when purchasing what is the most expensive thing anyone can purchase, "a House" one has to set parameters over what a person would purchase, and where youre buying.

    Example: I wouldnt purchase anything with an HOA, I wouldnt move anywhere with the nickname, "Tornado-Valley" or "Hurricane-Harbor" or Earthquake Central..

    Thats just my opinion..

    George
    N2ZNC
     
  7. K4KWH

    K4KWH Guest

    I seem to recall on this anniversary of the Twin Towers that NYC communications DIDN'T work so well and Amateur Radio was called upon to provide much needed, however temporary, communications support. Even the first photos of the towers to assess the damage were flown by----yep! VOLUNTEERS of the Civil Air Patrol who were the only others besides the military that were allowed to fly in the days following. The key here being volunteers. Hams, like those in CAP, were/are volunteers without which our Nation would suffer. Might I also point out that the first defenses of our beloved land were "volunteers" who not only gave up time and talent, but some of them their very lives.

    I don't mean to denigrate the fabulous city of New York, but it is also not the center of the known world. IF, indeed, you have the greatest communications systems known to man, then that's great. But, like 9/11, such systems are subject to failure and human error. Even disorganization will be disasterous even if you have the finest equipment on earth. It still comes down to the human factor. Professionals of all ilk cannot be prepared for all contingencies, and they WEREN'T prepared to have airliners AIMED deliberately at the heart of NYC, the Pentagon, and probably the White House. And it was VOLUNTEERS---even people on the streets of New York, covered with dust--that rallied to help even with injuries themselves. And that doesn't even account for the many heros who, doomed even then, stepped up to the plate and volunteered.

    Amateurs have always "stepped up" to the plate. They aren't "whackers"---that should be reserved for the losers who are desparate for validation in other areas of life--and you will find those in ANY avocation. They are volunteers with an asset that savvy E-ops people recognize as a useful tool.

    You must recognize that each city and locale has its own physical and technical challenges that make the required response to disaster different. The hinterlands from North Carolina to Nevada have tornados that Los Angeles rarely sees. The coasts have hurricanes, California has earthquakes and fires. Inner cities have their own problems. Each response must be tailored to their specific situation. Amateur Radio volunteers can be useful in all these scenarios. IOW, you cannot apply the E-ops needs of New York City to that of a large city in other areas.

    HOA's have apparently impacted Amateur Radio's ability to respond due to their extensive proliferation. I have mixed emotions about it as I have NO HOA and will NOT join any such nonsense. It is MY house!!!!! I PAID for it!!!! My house is NONE OF YOUR **** business!! Do I make myself clear? I am having trouble believing that HOA's are impossible to avoid considering what I see in my local area. There are beautiful homes on landscaped lots with shade trees and creeks. None of them have HOA bull****. Yes, they were built before 1976, but they are still fantastic homes. They are not falling down crap with junk Fords in the yards. In fact, I would not consider buying one of those look-alike things on skinny lots that just barely hold the house in place.

    It still comes down to contracts. YOU signed it. YOU agreed to it. Now you want to get the gub'ment to negate a legal, binding contract to accomodate YOU. What if someone wanted void your mortgage so they can TAKE it for themselves? That means not even paying you a dime for it, but they want to get a special condition that allows them a "profit" at your expense. You'd scream bloody murder, wouldn't you? OH! How unfair it is! How WRONG it is!!! How, then, is it "fair" to get a special consideration just for your antennas while keeping protections for your property's contracts and value?

    I do sympathize with those under HOA's. I HATE HOA's and everything that goes with them! But you did it to yourself! Now you want a special consideration that will allow you to "force"(?) something on the neighbors they may not want. What if they want a soccer field in the back yard with bleachers? OH! We can't have that! What if he wants to paint the house purple? (I've seen some!) OH! That's ugly; we ain't havin' that!

    See where that's goin'?

    J
     
  8. N1EN

    N1EN Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    A couple of thoughts:

    1. Remember that amateur radio does not have EMCOMM as its sole purpose. Formally it also exists because the folks in Washington believe it is in the best interest of the country to have a pool of skilled electricians and communicators, to promote education (physics, electronics, astronomy), and to promote international goodwill.

    2. There is something to argument that hams who buy into developments burdened with CCRs have made their choices and ought to live with the consequences. However, what about future hams? As more of the population becomes HOA-restricted, the realistic pool of future hams dwindles.

    3. Developing the skills to set up a portable station is important, but they aren't the only skills that a volunteer communicator needs. You want people who are comfortable sending and receiving messages in potentially difficult or chaotic conditions, and for whom commonly accepted communications protocols are second-nature. Those are skills that require consistent practice to develop and maintain, and that in turn requires regular access to a station to engage in such practice.

    4. You're right that in most major urban areas, the professionals seem to be doing a good job at setting up robust, redundant communications systems, and it's unlikely that amateurs are going to be needed to help out the officials in most disasters. But can the same be said about non-government entities that might also be deployed in an emergency? Or, also consider that in such an area if there were ever going to be a call out for amateurs to help out....the situation is going to be that much more dire.

    4½. Along those lines, I have to admit that one of the gripes I have with "amateur radio as emcomm", at least in my corner of the world, is the artificial wall erected between amateur radio and the professionals. I wish there would be evolution towards seeing amateur radio primarily as a place where volunteer communicators can build their skills, and only secondarily as spectrum and equipment that can be brought in "when all else has failed".

    The story I keep telling comes from "Snowtober" last year. I had the misfortune of stopping in at the town shelter (my wife wanted a hot shower), where I observed that town police officers were acting as shadows for shelter staff, just following them around and using town HT's to relay information for the staff.

    I could imagine that there would be value in having a couple of cops on hand for security, and multi-tasking as shadows would be reasonable...but surely resources could have been better spent by having volunteers familiar with how to use an HT acting as a shadows, and letting a few of the cops go out and do work only they are qualified to do.

    In many major disasters, there's a need for additional people to man the phones, process memos, etc. Volunteers can do that if there's advance training. Some of those volunteers can develop those skills by playing radio on the amateur bands. And, of course, if some of those volunteers can whip out their own Yaesus / Kenwoods / Icoms / Wouxuns when a municipal repeater or trunking controller fails....that's not a bad thing either.

    5. Regarding VHF/UHF versus HF...remember that the appropriateness of a set of frequencies will be extremely dependent on local circumstances. VHF and UHF are great when population density, terrain, and perhaps the presence of any surviving repeaters or digipeaters permit...and NYC certainly qualifies. But in some more rugged locales, you either need to hope that ridgetop repeaters survive, or plan on putting out a wire for NVIS. And even in New York City, where it would presumably take something pretty horrific for city officials to turn to hams for help....if conventional communications channels are down and City officials have a desire to communicate with the feds at Mount Weather, it probably wouldn't hurt to have a few redundant HF stations around, as well as people comfortable using them. If everyone in the city were under a "no antenna" or (even worse) a "no operating amateur radio gear of any kind" CCR...that might be a problem.
     
  9. W7KKK

    W7KKK Ham Member QRZ Page

    I will be purchasing another home in the next few months and moving from my rental where HF antennas are tough to allow for the landlord.
    I know well of the struggles that many have had with HOAs in the past but I don't feel a bit sorry for those that move into an area that has them, sings off on them and then wants to fight thinking they are special.
    My first requirement for a home for us needless to say is NO HOA, I don't care how nice the home is or what the price is.
    At least we have areas here that are still no HOAs in place. I do understand that in some states it's almost impossible for some to find a place to set up.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
  10. N7SGM

    N7SGM Ham Member QRZ Page

    Fellow Hams,

    I'm not sure if what I say here will find favor or not but I'll offer my 2 cents and you will decide. I have absolutely no intent to discredit anyone.


    I don't live in an HOA governed subdivision and I guess from reading some of the posts here, I should be glad I don't. I do know two fellow hams that do reside in two different subdivisions under HOA, CC&R rules and have no problems with their antennas. One is a ground mounted 6-BTV and the other is a dual band roof mount. Judging from that I guess you could say it all depends on the HOA you are in and if you can otherwise operate under stealth conditions, will your rig transmissions be clean enough that it won't interfere with closeby neighbors. That will get you busted everytime.


    I'm thinking of a popular HOA in So. Utah that will not allow roof mounted antennas. Interestingly enough however they do allow antennas for TV like the Dish and Direct TV. I don't think those antennas are very pretty either. Now I too am not an attorney but when you make a ruling that says no antennas are allowed to be installed on the roof, I take that literally and that means NO antennas are allowed.


    I guess it all depends on how they want to spin the CC & R's in your particular subdivision. If you have someone (the CC&R enforcer) who doesn't like hams, you will be shot down everytime. One poster said an "enforcer" came on to his property and took photos etc. That begs the question, do you actually own the land your home is own or does it belong to the HOA?? That would be strange to say the least. If that were true, you would never be allowed to change or add anything to the lot your home sits on, legally speaking.


    If allowed antennas, it would be hard to draw the line I suppose on just what type of antenna would be allowed. Some large towers with yagi's my be too obtrusive while a dipole or a verticle may be allowed. It's hard to say but I would bet arguments will ensue. The HOA I was referring too in So. Utah has lots so small that even a 6-BTV could fall in a neighbors yard if blown over somehow. Some homes are built with what looks like a distance of 2 feet from the property line. So close in fact that I wonder if they pass building code with respect to safety; fires etc. Maybe HOA's don't have to be built to code????? That's a story for a different day I guess.


    I see the issues at hand on both sides but I think the individual HOA needs to entertain common sense and look at each individual case rather than making a hard fast rule simply saying NO antennas. Each case will be different and each antenna will be different. And remember you HOA folks, if you say no antennas, that means no antennas period. No back peddeling now!


    For me, I think I'll pass on living under HOA rules as long as I can. I lived in a trailer park once and that was enough micro-managing for me. I wholeheartedly agree with one of posters who said when the HOA is making my house payment, then they can decide if I may install an antenna or not.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
  11. N4SRQ

    N4SRQ Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    I believe the buzzwords here are "reasonable accomodations". I don't want towers and antennae farms in my development (although I envy those who can have them). We used to not allow any antennae but eventually came into the 20th century when we OK's dish type antennae. Being able to install a "modest" antenna would not significantly impact any community. We are looking for the ability to put up perhaps a NVIS type antenna for regional comms - that would not be a huge eyesore; and perhaps 10 feet above roofline for UHF/VHF LOS local comms.
     
  12. WB4AEJ

    WB4AEJ Ham Member QRZ Page

    You are obviously a pacifist.
     
  13. WB4AEJ

    WB4AEJ Ham Member QRZ Page

    You obviously don't think that this is an important issue.

    If we are attacked and your community doesn't have communications because they didn't let some ham in their community have a tower, you'll likely think very differently in retrospect.



    Fred, WB4AEJ
     
  14. K2NCC

    K2NCC Ham Member QRZ Page

    My war-buddies would disagree. You would too if you knew me. :p
     
  15. AC7DX

    AC7DX Guest

    I wonder just how many hams are in HOA's compared to over a few hundred thousand who are not effected?
    It appears that Hams bought in to a HOA and now have buyers remorse and are using this as an out. If you are in a HOA and concerned...put a damn mobile in your car or set one ready for an emergency and piss off
     
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