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Hams -- File Written Testimony on HOA Restrictions!!

Discussion in 'Amateur Radio News' started by W6EM, Sep 9, 2012.

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  1. KJ4YVM

    KJ4YVM Ham Member QRZ Page

    I found it very interesting, reading all the previous comments. I read where some called HOA's un-American or said that they violated certain "amendments" to the Constitution, some even called them a rights violation. I'm sure that with some, I am about to be very unpopular.

    To start with Article 1-10 of the bill of rights of the Constitution, for these united states, are not amendments. They were a part of the original Constitution as it was agreed upon and signed. In fact they were so important that the representatives refused to sign until these articles (not amendments) were included. However, the Bill of Rights did not void any other part of the Constitution, such as the prohibition on Congress passing laws which would abridge your right to contract. If Congress passes any law nullifying your poor choice in contract, it will be a violation of the Constitution...a poor understanding of the Constitution, on your part, is apparent here. Rather than expecting the destruction of very important tenants of the Constitution, because you don't have a real grasp of the meaning of right to choice or freedom to contract, I suggest you increase your knowledge base. If you live in a community that has a covenant, and you agreed to it when you purchased there, you have no right to try and circumvent the contract you have with others who bought in the same community. If you don't like the terms of the contract then move and if you can't recoup your investment, knowledge isn't cheap, neither is integrity.
    I purposely moved outside the metro area just so I could have freedom, if that's what you want then you should too. If you aren't willing to make the sacrifice for your freedom then don't ask me to sacrifice my protection, in the Constitution, to make contract. It is the slow erosion of these protections that have led to the state of things here today.

    I do agree that HOA's are very much anathema to the ideas of liberty and freedom, which I was raised to believe to be the backbone of American ideal. However, you have the "right" to live in a community that holds these ideals in contempt if you want. Notice the word "community" as in "commune" or "communist". You chose to live there with full knowledge that these restrictions were imposed on you. If now you have a different philosophy in your life, move....then you will have rights too.

    I have read where some of you pressed the view that HOA's should be banned. That would be a violation of the right to contract, a right protected in the Constitution. I don't agree with the ideals that have brought about these communities, but I do believe that the people who want that lifestyle should be able to live it, if they choose. I know that there are few who understand the real depths of the concepts of liberty and freedom, but I for one believe the right to make bad choices is unalienable and when you make one, you should deal with your choice. Don't try and put it off on someone else. You made the choice nobody twisted your arm, that's freedom. Don't you wish you understood it better before. Now, take responsibility for your actions.
     
  2. K8YZK

    K8YZK Ham Member QRZ Page

    Well I know I will be bucking the trend here. I live in a HOA community, and I understand why they have rules that they have. I don't agree with all of them (like antenna's) but they are there for the good of the majority (all the owners). I do believe that some of those that run the HOA's do it to pump up their egos.
    Now with that said. I knew the rules before I moved in. I knew the requirements to get things changed, yet I still bought here. I think using Ecomm is a sham way to get the laws written by Congress to allow antennas, instead getting the rules changed thru the HOA's.
    Sorry you bought knowing the HOA rules, live with it or have it changed.
     
  3. KE4YOG

    KE4YOG Premium Subscriber QRZ Page

    I think that is will boil down to reasonable accommodation. That will be the key. Can you put up a 100 foot tower? No. Can you have wire antennas for HF that are well hidden and almost invisible? I would say yes. Maybe a vertical for VHF and UHF or small beam that is similiar in size to a TV antenna. Things can be done to make it easier. The great thing about ham radio and emergency communications is we are not centralized. While my shack my be off line because of damage my friend Walter may be up and running. He lives several miles from me and issue at my QTH may not be a problem at his.
     
  4. W6EM

    W6EM Ham Member QRZ Page

    A couple of comments to explain HFA's idea of a truely reasonable accommodation.

    HFA wants nothing more, in terms of CC&R preemptions, than allowance of simple wire antennas or a basic vertical. Don't ask about guys, traps, etc. Just something very basic.

    While not all of us are in agreement, the majority favor just the above for a mandated accommodation. Also, removal of any language prohibiting operation of transmitters from an HOA community. I know, that sounds absurd in light of cell phones, tablets, wireless modems and such, but you have to realize how ignorant the people were/are who proliferate CC&Rs.

    The Subcommittee holding hearings is the likely source of the legislation that required the FCC to conduct a study and prepare a report. A report that many view as having had a predetermined conclusion, as the proceeding 12-91 record comment data was largely ignored with respect to CC&R impact. So, if the amateur community wants to "set the record straight" by at least showing Congress that the FCC report was and is flawed, testimony was and is needed.

    I do not know, at this point, if ARRL will testify. From what I've heard so far, it is not widely known in ARRL circles, one way or the other.

    If any would like a copy of what I sent in, shoot me an email at my call at arrl dot net.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2012
  5. KF7RCC

    KF7RCC Ham Member QRZ Page

    Get real. In some states these HOAs also disallow displaying the american flag or putting up a basic flag pole for the american flag. This is absolutely sick and its a movement with the US to take away many Freedoms. Is this so we don't hurt someones feelings that was born elsewhere? Its the result of flawed thinking.
     
  6. W6EM

    W6EM Ham Member QRZ Page

    HOA CC&Rs aren’t your “normal” contract. In HFA President Don Schellhardt’s
    Testimony, he speaks to same:



    “In our Petition For Reconsideration of the Commission’s decision,
    we reiterated our prior contention that HOA “agreements” are typically
    “adhesion contracts”, as defined in the 1960 New Jersey Supreme
    Court case of Herringsen v. Bloomfield Motors. That is: HOA
    agreements are usually standardized contracts, followed so
    universally in the applicable marketplace that a consumer has no
    realistic chance to negotiate any other kind of agreement. Under
    these circumstances, an HOA agreement is not truly voluntary.”

    Perhaps this logic was employed in the Communications Act of 1996 when Congress saw fit to cram down the FCC’s throat an order to override private land use contracts to allow installation of Over the Air Receiving Device (OTARD) antennas. Garden-variety, roof-top TV antennas and their masts, and satellite dishes of one meter in diameter or less.

    Your claim that private contracts are unConstitutional doesn’t fit well.

    Also, when private land use contracts are MANDATED by local and state governments, as they are in Fairfax County, VA and the ENTIRE state of Colorado for residential developments to be approved, they then become government contracts. In fact, they’re subject to PRB-1, by default, already.
     
  7. WA3VJB

    WA3VJB Platinum Subscriber Platinum Subscriber QRZ Page

    Frank, when you talk about deed-imposed restrictions on property use you say the standard "...ideally, is democratically agreed upon by it's members." But how can this be possible? Corporate attorneys establish those rules when planning new developments and writing title for the land plats that are created. It is their wording attached to that deed, motivated by whatever it takes to preclude or minimize the chance for litigation among disgruntled residents in the future.

    I don't think those restrictions can be overcome by asserting the potential need for occasional, localized emergency communications. A better approach is to have the Sales Office carry back the potential concerns of a buyer, and have the language struck from the deed on a case-by-case basis before a land purchase contract is signed.
     
  8. K2NCC

    K2NCC Ham Member QRZ Page

    Nobody took away your Freedom. You (if in such a case) gave them away when you signed that paper.

    And we all know you just want to put up that flagpole to hide a vertical in it! 8)
     
  9. K2NCC

    K2NCC Ham Member QRZ Page

    I don't think that's what he said.
     
  10. K2NCC

    K2NCC Ham Member QRZ Page

    Thanks for the comment Paul!

    I did say ideally, but that was a planted "out" for me anyway, as I have no experience with HOAs anywhere I've lived. I think they have Boards, and those members can change rules. Voted on perhaps, probably requiring at least a majority to pass. Maybe not. They may just flip a coin. However they do it, I'm sure whatever they come up with is to meet the board's agenda, which may not be the same as the residents.

    Oh, hey, do members of the covenant have to be residents of area it rules? I think if I were in charge, one member from EACH household would be a voting member. (although I still think it would be 99-to-1 against hams.)

    I was going to jokingly suggest you convert them all to hams. Oh hell no. I'm definitely moving then! 8) I won't even talk to my neighbors about ham radio because I don't want them to know how exciting it is. (Unless they move at least 50 miles from here!)

    Anyway, this is really all semantics. How many decades have hams been fighting this and all anyone got was permission to post a dish? This is a battle we'll never win on paper. Unless your Contract is flawed in some way, my non-legal-expert-opinion is that you're stuck with whatever ya got.
     
  11. W4PG

    W4PG QRZ Lifetime Member #279 Platinum Subscriber Life Member QRZ Page

    Folks get so caught up in extremes that many tend to forget that any preemption of CC&Rs would undoubtedly follow the wording in PRB-1 that requires reasonable accommodations. This has worked well for city and state governments so there is no reason it wouldn't work for HOAs. It's one thing to want a 100 foot tower with stacked monobanders. It's quite another to want a simple dipole or vertical that impacts aesthetics of a neighborhood much less than the telephone poles and cell towers that already exist.

    I would never live where an HOA exists (I do have a condo on the beach with an HOA, but I rent that place). I've also never had any problem with the "stuff" an HOA is supposed to keep out. All my neighbors keep their places decent and don't have to be told what to do. HOAs survived OTARD and ham radio would have a MUCH less impact on HOAs than OTARD did. Just about everyone watches TV, but I'm the only ham in our neighborhood!

    .............Bob
     
  12. KK4FIH

    KK4FIH Ham Member QRZ Page

    HOAs go against everything american! If i buy a piece of property i shoul'd be able to do as I please with it. I would never buy in one of these neighborhoods and sure as hell would NEVER let someone else dictate to me what i can and cannot do on MY OWN LAND! I live in a rural area and neighbors are far enough away that they can't see and hear what i do. Thank you for this great article.

    Bill
    KK4FIH
     
  13. W1QT

    W1QT Guest

    No matter if there is a HOA restricted area or not, The term "portable" comes to mind. No matter where or when, should there be a need,that is why being prepared to activate a portable station is a key factor. In such emergency, No HOA agreement would block temp emergency portable set up that would aid in assistance in the event of the need. The call for help or need for aid would over ride in the situation.
     
  14. N4UM

    N4UM Ham Member QRZ Page

    Lee - W6EM:

    Thanks very much for the info on the upcoming hearing. I sent the subcommittee an attached copy of the petition signed by 3348 individuals along with a copy of the URL where interested parties can view the comments made by petitioners and asked that it be included as "written testimony" in the records of the committee hearings. Thanks again.
     
  15. W6EM

    W6EM Ham Member QRZ Page

    FranK:

    You're right, and I got keyboard going too fast for the brain.... What I meant to say was that I don't think it would be un-Constitutional for Congress to preempt private land use "agreements." I use the term loosely.

    They've done it before, for good cause, in the case of the OTARD Rule. The FCC has so much as told us that they will do it if Congress says so.

    Again, Fred's editing alligator cut me off. One of the "new" features about QRZ.COM that I don't like.
     
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