Field Day Dupe Sheets

Discussion in 'General Technical Questions and Answers' started by K0CMH, Jun 5, 2007.

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  1. K0CMH

    K0CMH Ham Member

    OK, I may be missing the obvious, but:

    I'm looking at the Field Day dupe sheets and am confused on how to fill them out. It just doesn't make sense to me looking at the blank form.
     
  2. W3GER

    W3GER Ham Member

    IMHO, dupe sheets are obsolete.

    Quoting from the FD rules at http://www.arrl.org/contests/rules/2007/fd.html, part of your report must be:
    "8.3.2.1. An attached list of stations worked by band/mode during the Field Day period (dupe sheet or an alpha/numeric list sorted by band and mode);"

    In this day of computer-assisted logging, it's a simple matter to get your logging program to produce a sorted list of stations worked for each band and mode (which can easily be scanned by eye for dupes).

    If you do use a paper log, you would then have to (laboriously!) transcribe all the calls onto a dupe sheet, 26 columns (A-Z), 10 rows (1-0). Suppose you worked me (W3GER) twice on 20-meter CW. As you go through your 20-meter CW log, when you get to the first occurrence of my call you'd write it in the 3G box (my call area and the first letter of my suffix). The second time you get to it you'd see I'm already IN the 3G box, and that's how you'd know it was a dupe.

    73 de W3GERry
     
  3. K8JD

    K8JD Ham Member

    You are supposed to fill out the dupe sheet as each contact is made, not later from a serial, sequenctial log after it's all over.
    That is supposed to save you the wasted time of working duplicate contacts in the heat of the contest.
    You should be able to quickly look up (or have a logger do it) calls to see if you should give them a call!
    I think a computerlog could have the dupe function but not familiar with them.
     
  4. WR8Y

    WR8Y Ham Member

    FD is a LOT more fun with a laptop or other computer running a logging program. I think there are some "Freeware" ones out there.

    With the computer, it's doing all the dupe-checking for you, as you hear a call, you enter it adn the computer tells you RIGHT NOW if it's a dupe, if so, you backspace and start over!

    You do NOT need a new, super-whiz-bang computer, either...

    I remember the old days, where we had a 'logger' doing the paper work alongside an operator at each radio.... now, you can do it all yourself with the software and computer.
     
  5. W6TMI

    W6TMI XML Subscriber

    Seems easier to not complete and log the contact as soon as you realize it's a dupe.

    Maybe I'm a dupe! d'oh!
     
  6. KA9VQF

    KA9VQF Ham Member

    I’m using a freeware contest logger called TR Contest Logger. I don’t exactly have the newest laptop on the planet, it is a Compaq LTE 5380. It runs windows 98 special edition.

    You can download it here:

    http://www.oceaniadxcontest.com/software.htm

    It will tell me if a contact is a dupe or not before I make the contact. Just type in the call and it tells you with an annoying blinking thing and even a beep noise if you enable it.

    I rarely make dupes anymore since I have been using the software. I’m pretty sure the software makes the proper adjustments for me when it is printed out.

    Its been pretty much since last year that I have even fired up the laptop, maybe I should do that and find the floppy drive before field day gets here.
     
  7. VA3SAX

    VA3SAX Ham Member

    last year I used the computer when we did search and pounce and we'd enter the call to see if it was good before calling the station. the computer made a noise and gave a big red warning when we duped...of course there was the time my partner entered the call wrong...and that came up as a dupe
     
  8. WB2WIK

    WB2WIK Premium Subscriber

    Manual logs and dupe sheets are still very much in vogue for Field Day, because the very nature of FD is that a lot of operators take to remote hills, beaches, etc using minimalist equipment with no power available other than maybe a gel-cell or such. Using a "laptop" as a computer for such an operation might require having three or four spare, charged batteries on hand and many people don't have these. If the battery required to run the "rig" barely survives the 24 hour operation powering the station, it's not going to last if it also has to power a computer.

    I've done some FDs where I've backpacked all the equipment to a mountaintop, climbing nearly 5000 feet vertically to get there and the only thing at the top was rocks. Not the kind of operation where you'd likely bring a computer along.

    For such cases, a paper log and dupe sheet work great.

    You do indeed fill in the dupe sheet as you go along, not later, to save time working dupes. The ARRL still provides paper dupe sheets which are about "D" sized paper (larger than log sheets), large enough to pencil in callsigns pretty easily.

    If you work W1AW put write W1AW in the "1" row and the "A" column, so you can find it quickly. The you work NE6ZZ, filling in that callsign in the "6" row and the "Z" column. After you've done this a couple dozen times, it's second nature and goes very quickly. Not quite as fast as computer logging for a good typist, but it doesn't slow down the operation much. I've made 200 QSOs an hour using a manual log and dupe sheet.

    Biggest challenge for field operations is keeping the log and dupe sheets dry! If you're operating in the field, keep that in mind, it's a real challenge..."dew" creates a mess if you're not careful.

    WB2WIK/6
     
  9. NN3W

    NN3W Ham Member

    Actually KF6RDN is on the right track.  I work all dupes and don't care if you're a dupe or not - until after the contest.  Dealing with the trouble of telling them they're a dupe takes MORE time than simply logging the contact and moving on. Plus, it allows you to recoup a QSO in case you or he blew the call the "first" time you worked.

    Go back after the "contest" and rescore the log with dupes removed.

    Even today, the advice of almost all major contesters is - WORK THE DUPE.  The only exception is during contests like Sweepstakes on CW and ONLY if you have a blazing run frequency going and working a dupe might cost you two other stations to go elsewhere.
     
  10. WB2WIK

    WB2WIK Premium Subscriber

    I disagree, but that why they make chocolate and vanilla.

    Most major contesters don't agree "Work the dupe!" unless working the dupe is faster than not working him. I'm a member of many contesting organizations and newsletters and think the majority agree with this.

    In Field Day, "work the dupe!" takes more time than it would in a DX contest. DX contest exchange is 599 05 or 599 CA or something pretty short. FD exchange is much longer since it includes the operation category and ARRL Section. SS is another one with a long exchange. Usually faster to send W2ABC B4 73 than it is to send the exchange and wait for him to send his for the frequency to become clear again.

    Plus, "work the dupe!" doesn't teach the errant operator anything. Pointing out the dupe does. If you're using computerized logging, pointing out the very precise error is pretty easy, and I do it all the time: "W1XYZ B4 0430 14029" gives him a lot of info, and the computer can send it in a few seconds. I use Writelog for Windows and the program will send all that info for me (the dupe info) while I'm listening on another receiver or something. Takes about as much time as working the dupe, but teaches something, so I think it's a very good trade-off.

    I do subscribe to the "WFWL" theory, though! [​IMG]

    (That's "work first, worry later!" when it comes to deliberating over whether a DX station is a SLIM or not, and stuff like that. Better to log a contact that might be real and then delete it later when you find out it isn't, then to possibly miss out on a new one.)

    WB2WIK/6
     
  11. NN3W

    NN3W Ham Member

    Put it to you this way, when you say worked you before, they often say, Oh...let me check.  What time was that?

    This I know from experience.  And frankly, I disagree with you that "Most major contesters don't agree 'Work the dupe!' unless working the dupe is faster than not working him."  This came up I cant tell you how many times and folks like K3ZO, W3LPL, K4ZW, NK7U, K3LR ALL say work the dupe with the SOLE exception being in CW sweeps.

    Saying 59 5 is about 1/2 second shorter than 2alpha Orange.  That is more negligible than saying, you're a dupe OM, and waiting them to say "sorry" or "OK" oh "Oh really?"
     
  12. NN3W

    NN3W Ham Member

    BTW here's a statement from KR2Q - he's on the CQWW Contest Committee...

    << Another story on should we work dupes or not ... >>

    Yeah...work them! I was qrp, but actually had folks duping me! I told the first one "dupe" but then worked him anyway...from then on, I just worked everybody (with qrp, they may have had doubts and decided not to log it, even after they got my call right anyway...it happens).

    Here's an opinion from K1TTT that runs one of the big multi-multi stations in New England

    So, turn off that qso b4 automatic message and WORK THE DUPES!
     
  13. WB2WIK

    WB2WIK Premium Subscriber

    Yeah, I know Doug and David. Doug and I have contested together back in M/M days.

    I think about as many would vote the other way, though. I like the training aspect of pointing out the dupe and I doubt anyone's lost a contest because he took another two seconds to do this. Maybe someone has, but it would sure have to be an awfully close contest.

    Since Field Day is virtually never won or lost based on raw QSO totals (and officially "it's not a contest" anyway), I'd definitely opt for pre-duping rather than post-duping in this one. The way to win FD is by running QRP, making lots of CW contacts and getting all the bonus points. Highest QSO total ever made in FD never came close to having the highest "points" total.

    WB2WIK/6
     
  14. NN3W

    NN3W Ham Member

    I still think you're incorrect on this.  As noted above, a lot of the well-respected ops simply work the guy and move on.  There are two reasons for this.  

    First, logging the dupes saves time by not having to educate the other operator as to when the QSO was made.  Otherwise you risk having to have to engage in a back and forth - "yes I did, no you didn't" action.  I've encountered this, and its problematic.  I agree that as a training function, less experienced ops need to learn from their operating practices to spot logging and receiving errors, and to ensure they correct their errors - for their benefit.  This can be done as easily on-line as it can off-line through a review of your log, your UBN reports, and through practice outside of the contest.

    Second, logging the dupes ensures you have a valid QSO.  If you busted the other guy's first QSO, and you refuse to work them the second time (you duped them), you not only lose the credit for the busted QSO, but you also lose the opportunity to have made a successful contact with the station.  If you busted the other guy's first QSO, and work the dupe on the second QSO, you lose the credit for the busted QSO, but you've recouped part of the credit (if not all the credit) on the second QSO.  

    In the old days, dupes were an issue as dupes made you lose points and excessive dupes could result in disqualification from the contest.  Because most logs are now electronic (via CT, or Writelog or N1MM or Wintest), contest sponsors now no longer care about dupes, do not penalize for dupes and do not threaten to DQ you for making dupes.

    So, log the dupes!  I do!  Helped me make over 3,000 QSOs in the last CQWW...



    If you want a dirty secret, ARRL really doesnt check FD logs. They certainly don't check the logged exchange!
     
  15. WB2WIK

    WB2WIK Premium Subscriber

    I know about FD checks. Since it's not officially a contest, the logs aren't checked at all, far as I know. They review only the dupe sheets or a listing of calls worked by mode, along with the bonus points claimed and try to verify all is as accurate as possible if there's a close run between two or more stations vying for top spot in a category. I think that's all that is checked.

    When my group submitted the highest FD score in FD history (and was credited for it) -- the K6CAB group (Conejo Valley ARC) was the first to break the 30,000 point barrier for FD score -- I was FD Chairman of the club that year. We did it by running QRP on all stations, all battery power, several stations purely solar powered, heavy emphasis on CW contacts and getting all the bonus points available. Q total wasn't that important, so we used several neophyte operators including a full-time "Novice" station which didn't count in the transmitter total per the rules at the time. It was easy to prove all the bonus points, using photographs, videotapes and copies of publicity clipped from all the local newspapers. We were on Channel 2, 4, 5 and 11 News on television at various times over the weekend.

    That's what FD is about! We didn't even know we broke the all-time scoring record until several months later, when somebody pointed that out.

    WB2WIK/6
     
  16. N8UZE

    N8UZE Ham Member

    Some contest logging software simply will not permit dupes to be entered. You can fool the software but that wastes time too.
     
  17. NN3W

    NN3W Ham Member

    Now thats just silly.
     
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