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Echolink on 10M and 6M

Discussion in 'Echolink/IRLP Tech Board' started by K6CAW, Mar 17, 2012.

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  1. K6CAW

    K6CAW Ham Member

    It seems that Echolink stations are classified as "auxillary" stations by the FCC. This would appear to limit the operation of echolink link stations to 2 meters and above. Can anyone confirm this? I just want to be compliant with the regulations.
     
  2. ND5Y

    ND5Y Ham Member

    Show me where it says in Part 97 that Echolink stations are classified as "auxillary" stations.

    Echolink isn't a transmission mode or modulation type. You can operate SSB, AM, FM or digital voice modes anywhere that your licesnse class allows voice operation and you observe bandwidth limitations. It makes no difference whether the transmitted audio comes from your local mic, a phone line, or the internet as long as a control operator is present.
     
  3. K6CAW

    K6CAW Ham Member

    I'm saw it in Gordon West's extra class study guide 5th edition. Page 33 says "Automatically retransmitting the radio signals of other ham stations takes place with a common repeater, and can also take place from......an auxilliary station, such as one handling IRLP" That doesn't mention Echolink but the 2 are similar.
     
  4. ND5Y

    ND5Y Ham Member

    Your study guide doesn't say ALL VoIP stations are ALWAYS auxiliary stations. As far as I'm concerned that only applies if the station is used as a point-to-point link to feed Echolink/IRLP to a repeater or something. Otherwise it is no different than any other fixed or mobile station.

    If you have a VoIP link at your house so that you can run around and talk to other stations on your hand held or in your car, I don't see how that would be considered an auxiliary station.

    Here is what Part 97 says:
    § 97.3 (a) (7) Auxiliary station. An amateur station, other than in a message forwarding system, that is transmitting communications point-to-point within a system of cooperating amateur stations.

    To me that means something like point-to-point repeater or remote bases links or for a phone patch on a repater that doesn't have a phone line at the repeater site. If you have something like a station on 10 meters linked to your repeater using EchoLink, that would be like using EchoLink instead of an auxiliary station.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2012
  5. PE1RDW

    PE1RDW Ham Member

    it realy is simple, if the voip gateway is transmitting to a single fixed station like a repeater then it is a auxiliary station, if it is transmitting on a simplex frequentie for everyone to use then it is not.
     
  6. K6ABZ

    K6ABZ Ham Member

    Echolink is a remotely controlled station, also called a telecommand station; There are two ways to remote control a station: you can control it over the air, usually on the same frequency as the voice link, or you can control it via a wireline link. Echolink can be controlled by a wire link or over the air, but the Part 97 rules regarding remote control are clear. 97.213 says that a telecommand station needs to use an auxiliary station for radio link control, but that you can also use wireline control. There is no restriction on the frequencies that you can operate on for the actual voice communications, just that you cannot operate you control link over anything below 2 meters.

    So as far as I can tell, a simplex Echolink node can operate on any band, as long as you have authority to operate in that band and on that mode.
     
  7. K0RGR

    K0RGR Premium Subscriber

    I think Andre's interpretation is correct. The transmitter sending the audio up to repeater from the Internet would be an auxiliary station, and prior to a fairly recent rules change, was not legal below 222 MHz.. It would be legal on 2 meters now, but technically not on 6 or 10. Still, thousands of EchoLinkers did it on 2 meters anyway, and the FCC enforcer at the time chose to overlook that 'technical' violation of the rules (and said so explicitly).
     
  8. ND6M

    ND6M Ham Member

    don't think so,..... if it goes thru a REPEATER, then it is NOT a point -to point WITHIN (key word) a system transmission, what you are describing is commonly called a "BACKBONE" link. think old style DX clusters that were X-band repeated

    Part 97.3 (a) (7) Auxiliary station. An amateur station, other than in a message forwarding system, that is transmitting communications point-to-point within a system of cooperating amateur stations.

    also the last word of part 97 is: stationS. that refers to more than one receiving station,... and as you correctly state : "if it is transmitting on a simplex frequentie for everyone to use then it is not."
     
  9. ND5Y

    ND5Y Ham Member

    Wrong. Read the definitions in 97.3. Echolink has nothing to do with remotely controlling devices or satellites.

    (44) Telecommand. A one-way transmission to initiate, modify, or terminate functions of a device at a distance.

    (45) Telecommand station. An amateur station that transmits communications to initiate, modify or terminate functions of a space station.
     
  10. KD8DVR

    KD8DVR Ham Member

    Try this link:

    http://www.arrl.org/auxiliary-station-faq

    This is confusing, because an RF node could be a "remote base" which is an auxillary station.... ALSO, according to this, a remote base cannot be open to the public, as control operators must be specifically designated by the owner of the station. What I got tagged (*****) is interesting, because, an RF link owner of a simplex link is controlling a radio remotely, via his DTMF pad. Also, see where such stations may not be open to the public.

    I run an RF link, and this is especially concerning...

    From the link:

    What are the uses for auxiliary stations?
    There are several forms of auxiliary operation, such as:***** 1) Remote control of a station at a different location (such as a repeater on a mountaintop), where a radio link is used to make one-way transmissions of DTMF tones to change its operating parameters ******2) Voice links between two or more stations within a system of stations, such as: (a) Point-to-point links from a repeater's remote receiver(s) back to the main repeater site. (b) Dedicated point-to-point links between different repeaters in a "system" of either full-time or part-time linked repeaters. (c) A combination of remote control and point-to-point voice links intended to control and carry the voice signals from the control point to the transmitter(s) of a remotely controlled station. (This is the equivalent of replacing the wire between the microphone and the transmitter's mike input with a radio link from the microphone to the remotely located transmitter.) This is commonly referred to as an "uplink." (d) Point-to-point links from the receiver(s) of a remotely located station back to the station's control operator(s) at their control point(s). This is the equivalent of replacing the wire between the receiver's audio output terminals and its loudspeaker with a radio link from the receiver to a remotely located loudspeaker. This is commonly referred to as a "downlink."


    What is an auxiliary station?-

    When an amateur station, such as a repeater, is remotely controlled over a radio link, there is another station involved--the station doing the controlling. This "control" station is, under the FCC rules, called an auxiliary station defined by the FCC as "An amateur station, other than a message forwarding system, that is transmitting commu#nications point-to-point within a system of cooperating amateur stations [97.3(a)(7)]." There are a few important rules that apply to auxiliary stations: 1) All amateurs, except Novices, may put auxiliary stations on the air [97.201(a)]. 2) An auxiliary station may transmit only on the 2 m and shorter wavelength bands, except the 144.0-144.5 MHz, 145.8-146.0 MHz, 219-220 MHz, 222.00-222.15 MHz, 431-433 MHz, and 435-438 MHz segments. 3) When there is interference, licensees are equally responsible for solving the interference, except where one station is coordinated and the other is not [97.201(c)]. Control links should be coordinated. 4) An auxiliary station may, under certain circumstances, be automatically controlled and may send one-way transmissions [97.201(d), (e)].





    What is a "remote base?"+

    Auxiliary stations are also used in what have come to be known as "remote bases." The term "remote base" does not appear anywhere in the FCC rules. But, if you combine items 2(c) and 2(d), you can create the basics of a radio remotely controlled base station, or a "remote base." There are many possibilities for remotely controlled amateur stations.





    Are "open" remote bases legal?-

    No. Just as you wouldn't allow any unknown ham to just walk into your shack and start talking on your radio without your permission, the same rule applies to the use of a remote base. Every user must be specifically authorized by the station's licensee to use the station, thus making each of them "designated control operators" of the station. By the way, the receiver(s) and transmitter(s) at the remotely controlled station may operate on any frequency for which the acting control operator has license privileges. For instance, if the control operator holds an Advanced Class license, the operator may use a remote base which operates on any appropriate HF phone band, provided that he or she doesn't exceed his or her own privileges. The control operator may allow other amateurs to talk over the remote base while he is in control, but even though they may hold amateur licenses, these other people are only talking over the station under provisions of the "third party" rules, not as control operators.
     
  11. KD8DVR

    KD8DVR Ham Member

    Gee... forgot this one:

    See this link:

    http://www.arrl.org/voip-faq

    From the link:



    Fine, so the Commission doesn't care about the VoIP part. Are there any particular rules of which a ham considering such an operation should be aware?

    The obvious answer is all of them, but we'll focus on a few that are easy to overlook, particularly for stand-alone, single channel operations. The main points to remember are:
    •All stations must be controlled.
    •Only certain types of stations may be automatically controlled.
    •Simplex voice operations do not qualify for automatic control.
    •Any station that is remotely controlled via radio must utilize an auxiliary station to execute said control, and auxiliary stations are restricted in frequency.

    It's not as hard as it sounds. All you have to do is think about the type of station you're operating and how it's controlled. Let's look at a few examples.


    --------------------------


    This would consider an RF controlled link to be an Auxilary station, which falls under rules in my previous message. As such, as the OP asked, use of an Echolink system on 10 and 6 meters would be forbidden. This also indicates "Open" Echolink RF nodes may be prohibited.
     
  12. WB8GRS

    WB8GRS Ham Member

    Hi All,

    Is the ARRL link http://www.arrl.org/voip-faq out of date? In the ARRL FAQ (see link and below), they say you can't operate as an Auxiliary Station in the 2 meter band, but as I understand YOU CAN except for 144.0 to 144.5 MHz and 145.8 to 146.0 MHz.

    I believe the following is not correct. I believe 147.41 MHz is an approved Auxiliary Station frequency.

    "•A control operator communicates with and controls a simplex VoIP node with a handheld, transmitting and listening to the node on 147.41 MHz. This is wireless remote control. Such control must be executed by an auxiliary station, but 147.41 MHz is not an allowed frequency for such a station. This operation is not legal. It may be made legal by locally controlling the node, choosing a control frequency on which auxiliary station operation is permitted, or controlling the node via a wireline link. The next three examples show each option in action."

    I assume the info in the ARRL FAQ is out of date information, am I correct?

    73,
    Steve - WB8GRS


     
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