...And that may be your next problem. Under unlicensed FRS rules, type accepted radios must have non-removable antennas. Under licensed GMRS rules, you MAY use an external antenna of any type, so going with some type of downward firing circularly polarized antenna may be your best best for aircraft use. You could also use a quarter-wave ground plane type antenna "upside down" and have good coverage. Do not use a high-gain type antenna, or you won't get any downward radiation. Also, most of the Beofengs that people are familiar with (uv5r) are not type accepted for use on GMRS. They do make one that is type accepted and certified, the model Btech GMRS-V1, which is an 8-Watt UHF radio that also features VHF receive.
Without enforcement, this is pretty much cause and effect. Fining one guy 20K for parking under the same repeater the same time every night and interfering ... well that doesn't send any real message to these people. When the story came out years back about unlicensed cops using 2 meters for talk-around, people like this figured it must be relatively safe to pirate on our bands. If they listen to some of the garbage actual hams put through 2 meter repeaters, they're probably doubly emboldened! Just like anything else nowadays. When you ask the government for help ... oh, they'll help .... but you will immediately be sorry you asked. So what can be done, really?
This isn't anything new. Hang gliders and balloon operators have been illegally using the 2M band for decades. Back in the late 70's and early 80's, lots of people bought Icom 2AT handhelds (or similar) because they were cheap and synthesized. The users would just roll in a frequency on the thumbwheel switches and use that, without regard to the specific frequency or who might be there. If they happened to pick a used frequency, then people got upset. If they were on a totally unused channel, then no one ever knew they were there. The balloon operator would use it to communicate with his chase crew, back before cell phones or any other cheap form of radio communication was available.
Maybe "Made in China" is the why of this illegal activity in the sky. Chinese handhelds are cheap and sellers don't check for your license. Here in the Netherlands 144MHz FM is like CB too. SSB is a different cookie, nobody uses that great mode.
I'd like to start this off with a question: Has any ham operator reading this actually ever heard or discovered PPG or even PG pilots operating on any ham frequencies? To clarify, I am not a moderator of the Facebook forum (at best I'm just an irritant to my long suffering wife while I post a lot there). I can confirm that Jim's (WB4IME) posts have disappeared from the forum but I cannot explain it. Jim, the forum you joined and posted to is probably not the best one for this discussion. That forum, while managed by three individuals whom I believe are located in the US, has a worldwide audience with 27k members and this particular issue is much more US specific than that. It's possible that one of the moderators received some complaints from international members, or even that Facebook was just being buggy. We have seen in this thread suggestions of shooting them down like skeet or using our radios to block their transmissions as well as suggestions that the FCC will throw a gajillion dollar fine at a PPG pilot who transmits a few words illegally on the ham bands. Please stop this type of nonsense. I get the humor and maybe a lot of hams do but both of these ideas are of course non-starters and the PPG folks who have read them tend to see this group as a bunch of grumpy old Mr. Wilsons yelling at Dennis to get off the grass. They are not helpful to anyone but are especially embarrassing for those of us trying to support the ham community with other powered paraglider pilots. Thank you for pointing this out (as others have). I searched part 95 for "Detachable" and found nothing except references to the new digital signaling system. However, the word "removable" finds what I missed under § 95.587. Based on this, my personal suggestion to my PPG pilot friends who refuse to even listen to what having a ham license can do, is to apply for a GMRS license. This is likely going to be our next challenge. We need to communicate air-to-air as well as air-to-ground and my experience with hand-held radios in the air has not been good. I have both a Boafeng 8W model and a Woxun radio I purchased at HRO. What I have found using both of these radios is that there seems to be a directional component built in to the system. I can get good communications in some directions but not in others, and that changes with heading. Anecdotally I believe that if the distant end is on the other side of my body from my radio, the signal in both directions is impacted, but I need to confirm that in testing. I also noticed on the Woxun that I could feel slight RF burn (shock) on my PTT hand coming through a screw below the PTT button while I'm transmitting. That reminded me that I have no real ground plane up there and that's likely part of the problem. My first idea is to construct a simple dipole antenna out of the thinnest coax available (by removing some of the outer shielding but letting the lower part of it become the ground plane), cut to the correct frequency and attached to one of the lines leading up to the wing. I have also considered attaching a vehicle antenna to the cage just above the prop but I'm not sure that the cage would provide a good ground plane, and getting it grounded well can be challenging on some motor models. I am open to any suggestions on this.
"What I have found using both of these radios is that there seems to be a directional component built in to the system." "Anecdotally I believe that if the distant end is on the other side of my body from my radio... " You have re-discovered the body DF method of RF direction finding, T-hunting and radio Fox Hunting. It is also known as Body Fade, Body Shield, and Body Block. Basically: The human body shields VHF-UHF-microwave signals. When the HT is held very close to the body, there is a null formed in the antenna pattern in the direction of the body. If the antenna is oriented even slightly away from being parallel with the body, then the body shielding effect diminishes. "I have also considered attaching a vehicle antenna to the cage just above the prop ." I would recommend against any type of antenna that connects directly to the paramotor or frame. You will get more (spark plug) ignition interference on reception. Your best results will be with an isolated antenna system and isolated headset system. Your dipole idea is a good one, it works well, on insulated webbing rigging. However, be careful of the potential for such an antenna or coax to be involved in prop fouling or rigging fouling, it can be deadly. Stray wires and moving machinery... Murphy's Law will get you. Another method would be to mount a 17 inch flex HT whip downward under your seat harness, or poking outward to the right or left of your hip. If you can rig an upper leg pouch that orients the HT's antenna outward to the side of the leg, that would also solve the entire problem. Lastly... The Simplest = Best: There are some front packs for radios that orient the HT at a diagonal angle off to the side of the shoulder. These radio harnesses work well, and they alleviate Body Block: Also, some harness front packs are designed for Paramotor PG/PPG/etc purpose and have good gear mounting (and can be integrated with a rescue chute).
"I'd like to start this off with a question: Has any ham operator reading this actually ever heard or discovered PPG or even PG pilots operating on any ham frequencies?" As I answered on the Paramotor Forum when you asked me that question the other evening ... I have. But you apparently have chosen to not take me at my word. There are members of the Forums that have openly admitted using 2 mtrs ... but you overlook them ? Hmmm ... "We have seen in this thread suggestions of shooting them down like skeet or using our radios to block their transmissions as well as suggestions that the FCC will throw a gajillion dollar fine at a PPG pilot who transmits a few words illegally on the ham bands. Please stop this type of nonsense." I agree that statements made by others of 'shooting them down like skeet' or 'talking over them' is not the best approach and stated that on the Paramotor Forum. You have emphasized numerous times on the Paramotor Forum that the PPG Pilot will receive several warnings before any real action / fine is levied against the violator. While warning tickets may be issued first that does not prevent the FCC Enforcement Division from taking a more punitive action from the very beginning. Also making light of the financial fines levied by the FCC and the Courts does not assist anyone either. The fines are real .. the fines have been and continue to be levied and future large sums will be levied by the FCC. The fines are not silly nor nonsense. Educating the pilots on the possibility is assisting them with knowledge they need to know ... it isn't nonsense. I submit that knowledge presents a real concern for them and the childish reaction is to attact the message and/or the messenger. I wonder if you have a conflict of interest ? Your biased comments from the Paramotor Forum are available for all to read in the transcript. Here are a few of those : "Illegal though it may be, the PPG pilots using ham frequencies don't have the problem, it's the amateur radio people who have the problem with PPG pilots illegally using the ham frequencies." No Mark - Right is still right and wrong is still wrong. Violating the law has not become the new normal even though our world seems he** bent on going that way. "The communication needs to be in the other direction." (Hams to PPG) "But if a someone or a group of people from the ham community would reach out to the PPG community and not only explain that what they do is illegal, but also give them options and suggestions on how best to do it correctly, maybe even help with antennas and grounding systems and procedures and equipment, ... " I mentioned what some members of the PPG Community were doing is illegal. I presented numerous suggestions how the PPG Pilots could move forward with becoming licensed or consider moving to the other radio services which are either unlicensed or don't require testing. (Twice those posts were deleted. Only until I posted screen images from my computer showing the posts before they were deleted, did the deleting stop. Those images are posted here previously for all to see). However the audacity of some of the Pilots comments and what appears to be your support of same as witnessed in your comments listed above, indicate the PPG Community doesn't care it is violating the law - will continue to do so with pride and out of spite - and somehow expect the legally licensed hams to provide a solution to their illegalities. Why did you become a licensed Amateur Radio Operator ? Are you proud of your hobby ? Are you supportive of your hobby (Amateur Radio) ? It doesn't appear so from your comments. What the PPG Community is seeing is a licensed Ham who is supporting their illegal activities. Their thought processes are such that 'If this licensed Ham agrees with us it really isn't a problem.' Another licensed ham on the PPG Forum posted 'No one seems to care so keep doing it.' (That was posted on another PPG forum). The same licensed Ham posted on the PPG Forum "Also, how often does an average PPG pilot fly with friends? 20 hours a year at the most? I bet they have less than 20 minutes of airtime a year. We're not talking about a lot of volume here." Illegal activity and QRMers are one thing. Licensed Hams supporting these illegal activities as evidenced and perceived by others via their comments, is something else completely. If you want to point out nonsense and silliness ... look in the mirror Mark. Let me end this post with a suggestion. Take the information you are receiving here in this Forum and share it with the PPG Forum members. Continue sharing your positive, opening comment with the PPG Community: "It sure would be cool to get a bunch more of us licensed. Combining the two hobbies is kind of fun - that /air mobile thing usually piques the curiosity but having a standardized, lag free, long range and legal way of communicating in this sport would not be a bad thing." You continue to say 'Someone from the Ham community needs to reach out to the PPG community'. Mark ... you are that person. Now .. Thank you for coming here and asking questions. Thank you for trying to learn what frequencies and modes are acceptable. Thank you for inquiring about equipment / antennas / grounding / etc. Share the knowledge you receive with the PPG Community. I posted on your forum the Amateur Radio Community is always willing to assist. That is the very foundation of the hobby. Both hobbies have challenges with members, regulations and goals. But combining our efforts from both sides in a positive manner will only assist one another. 73
Yes. When I lived in Salt Lake City I found a group on 2m on a regular basis, usually near a place called Point of The Mountain.
To WB4IME, You are not the Inquisitor of the Amateur Radio Service. You don't get to sit in judgment over anyone's motivation for their participation in the Amateur Radio Service. All hams are equal, there are no overlords here. You are being a very poor ambassador for Amateur Radio. Please stop your tirade.
KQ6XA ... I won't stop expressing my views. I am very concerned about the illegal operations occurring on all of the Amateur Radio bands. This topic is only one area of the problem. I will continue to point out where "Right is right and wrong is wrong." This situation is only one example of what is occurring. Wanna talk about the group on 7.200 in a different thread? Several licensed Hams are contributing to that violation of the rules. If this thread covered that situation I would not hesitate to identify the violators there as well. They need to be identified and not coddled or pampered. They need to be asked the difficult questions to identify what their true intentions are other than what appears to be the obvious. And if asking the difficult questions didn't stop the illegal activity I would not hesitate for a moment to consult with the FCC. Amateur Radio for the most part is self-policing. Every Ham has a responsibility to preserve and protect our hobby. Turning your head - ignoring the situation in hopes it will go away or because talking about it is not nice or makes one uncomfortable - will not bring an end to the problem. What has occurred is a change in society that affects Amateur Radio as well. There is a general lawlessness prevalent in this nation as well as the world. The "silent majority" has for too long remained silent for various reasons and the problems have gotten worse. Now that some of us who are concerned and are trying to do something about it for the betterment of all, there are various individuals who speak up and fight against trying to stop the lawlessness. It is truly ironic that in this present day "Good is bad and Bad is good." Contrary to your statement, I am not a poor ambassador of Amateur Radio. Anytime a licensed Amateur Radio Operator voices support for illegal activity, that should be cause for caution and for questions to be asked. My comments on the PPG Forum were all positive, educational and supportive. And yet a licensed operator (two actually) continued to make statements that support the illegal use of 2 mtrs. Doesn't that bother you ? If it doesn't why not ? It should. Asking about their reason/s for becoming licensed is a valid and pertinent question, in light of their comments. If you don't want to ask the hard questions .. don't. But don't condemn those who are trying to improve the situation, even by asking hard questions. Read the transcript that was provided. If need be I will email you a copy. The comments are there for you to read and it very clearly identifies an existing conflict of interest. Why is that ? What are the true motives ? I am thankful that questions are being asked and encourage the PPG community continue to seek assistance. But I will not stand for anyone to speak from both sides of their mouth. You and the remainder of the Amateur Radio community need to be informed. Hate me for it or disagree with me if you will .. but you need to be informed. 73
WB4IME: Just more grumpy old man screaming to get off the grass. I do not have a conflict of interest, I have a conjoining of interest. For the record, again, I do not condone nor approve of nor encourage the use of any frequency, ham band or not, nor have I ever. I simply stated the reality of the situation. I also explained that your posts are being deleted and I don't know why. That may possibly be because you are not a paramotor pilot yet you joined a world wide Facebook paramotor forum under an alias. I did not ever see a response from you regarding whether you have ever personally witnessed or heard PPG or PG pilots talking on the ham bands but I did read the response where you stated that you got involved in this issue through a friend who is in the sport. Yes, I am that person. As that person I am not going to throw around threats of multiple ten thousand dollar fines where the reality does not exist. I am posting here, I am concerned for the lack of desire in the sport to have access to easy, direct, clear communications with other pilots (and PPG pilot to pilot collisions are a thing), and have the desire, knowledge and resources to learn what I need to learn to help the PPG community as a whole improve communications while avoiding illegal operations on any band. Thank you for stopping your tirade. Thank you for this. Not sure of when this happened but if we can get more such reports we can help the PG and PPG pilots understand that there are issues with illegal communications. Yeah, that makes sense. I have the understanding but not the experience in antennas to instantly know this kind of stuff, thanks. This is a problem with some motors anyway. There are spark plug/wires shielding schemes that could be employed but simpler is better. Putting the antenna on top of the cage - even if it is electrically isolated - also presents other challenges with keep things out of that spinning whirly limb chopper back there. Amen! Something I'm always cognizant of. Also concerned about the weight of an antenna on one glider line but probably not a big deal. I've contemplated this but under the seat is complicated due to shifting around during launch and then flight. Also, that would tend to body block the signal to receivers above the transmitting pilot while the line antenna could be positioned high enough that the pilot below would only block a small section. Another possibility but there I'd think there's still be some body blocking towards the opposite side of the pilot. I have one of these but it's extremely poorly designed and the radios are not anchored well in it. I have seen others that seem to work better like the one in the photo but not much of the antenna is extending above the shoulder, and still the dead zone from body block would be fairly large below the pilot. The harness front pack have pretty much the same issue. Considering all that, I am more convinced that an antenna attached to the glider lines will really be the best solution from an RF perspective. But in all cases, safety and avoidance of issues must be priority. There is a wide range of equipment designs in the PPG community and avoiding cables and wires getting into line and props and in the way of flight operations is critical.
One way of deterring the PPG guys from operating on 2-meters would be to explain that they MIGHT be operating on a repeater input frequency and that their conversation may be inadvertently re-transmitted over several counties where thousands of people can hear them - including the FCC field offices. IMO the PPG guys don't seem to be the sharpest crayons in the box. If they would just purchase something like the ICOM IC-V8, which is easily modified for out of band use, make the modification, and then operate on an unused frequency in the Land Mobile part of the spectrum - problem solved. They will no longer be in the Ham Bands and they can still operate illegally without a license. And, the equipment is not cost prohibitive. Or better (cheaper) they could just program their cheap Chinese junk radios to operate in that band. I know a whole bunch of Hunters, in Northern Florida, that do that. They have a fantastic communications system using 50w mobiles in their trucks, like the ICOM V8000, and when out of the truck they use their ICOM V8 hand helds. If a bunch of Red Neck Hunters can afford radios like that I'm almost positive that a bunch of PPG guys could do the same. Dan KI4AX
I'm a paramotor pilot. "the PPC sport is attracting a large number of undesirables who do not respect the rules and guidelines of the sport, endangering others as well as themselves in the process." I call BS on this comment. I know hundreds of ppg ppc pilots. All but one or two are well trained and leaning toward being overly cautious regarding their safety and the safety of others. Most of the people I fly with are private or commercial pilots, aircraft mechanics and/or air traffic controllers. Even a Army Blachhawk Helo pilot. We don't even use 2 Meter radios for the most part. Phones work better. The two of us in my circle who do or have used radio are General and Extra license holders. "The 2 Meter band is quickly becoming overrun with unlicensed operators who use it for communicating in their sport – Paramotoring or PPC (Power Parachuting)." There are very few people in this sport so it is ridiculous to imply that they "overrun" the 2 Meter band. In fact it is true that a number of trainers do use radios without proper license though. I encourage my fellow pilots to get licensed. Anyone who can complete ppg training can easily get a Technician license. "I’ve conversed with a number of PPC’ers regarding this violation of the law." In a confrontational way I suspect. Folks, as a PPG pilot I see rapid growth in the sport. Like ham we are self policing. As a ham General license holder I see a hobby that is finding it difficult to grow or create interest in the hobby. Why don't you see this as a chance to grow the hobby. This is an exciting new way to use the ham privileges. If you push people they push back. If you try to drag people they pull away. Why don't you try to get alongside and see if you can lead this bunch to the ham hobby. Most PPG pilots are techies anyway. They build and customize their aircraft, they operate and build RC aircraft. They are just the sort to become new hams if lead to it. And those who posted suggestions to shoot at us or otherwise created a life threatening hazard; who are the "number of undesirables" now. Here are some suggestions: Approach pilots and trainers and explain the advantages of properly operating their radios. Approach our gatherings and volunteer to run the comms for the event like you do for other events like races and soforth. I hope we come together on this. I can see new and fun nets coming from this.
Mark : Thank you for your apology to the Amateur community for your previous statements indicating the problem was with the Hams. Also thank you for saying you are concerned about the illegal activity, don't condone it and agree you are "that person" who can assist rectifying this problem. And a final high five for the evidenced positive content change of your posting in the PPG Forum. Your constructive suggestions are just what the PPG members need. Regarding antenna placement ... what about a permanent installation at the top of the motor cage, where others have placed a strobe light ? Also consider a 10 ft length (or so) of RG-58 coax that is affixed to one of the risers leading to the wing ? The opposite would be a length of coax attached to the seat and allowed to trail beneath and behind the pilot, similar to a 'chase cam'. (Brain storming ...)
