Sacramento

[k6pme]

Yesterday I picked up the recent copy of The Sacramento News and Review. I don't normally read this mag but the cover article caught my eye. I've been watching this project struggle into existance for quite some time nad it looks like it will finally get off the ground!

Quote[/b] ]Sacramento’s pioneering status as a solar model is soon to be followed by the rest of the state, as the California Public Utilities Commission (PUC) readies to unleash a $3 billion incentive program to achieve a million solar roofs, or its equivalent in electricity production, over the next decade.

Quote[/b] ]Last year, Germany installed 840 megawatts of solar electric panels--compared with just 110 megawatts in the entire United States. Japan also has a vigorous market, and Spain, Italy and Canada are moving aggressively as well.

It's a long read but interesting.

http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/Content?oid=oid%3A54586

[K0RGR]

I wouldn't think Sacramento would be the ideal place for this. When I lived there, it seemed like we got valley fog every winter, sometimes for weeks on end. Most of the year, it would be perfect, though. It might be hard to keep the panels clean, though, with the dust from the delta.

There's lots of territory out there where solar should work. Real mass-production of solar cells should bring the prices down much further.

California has a wealth of potential natural energy sources - about every kind you can imagine. I think wave generators along the coast would have great potential. There's already a bit of geothermal going on out there, with lots more potential, I think. That land in the Big Valley that's now too salty to grow major crops could probably grow something that could be converted to biomass or biodiesel - and might help rehabilitate the land.

If any state in the union can get away from fossil fuels, it ought to be California.

[k6pme]

Normally I would have to agree with you. The valley fog and the dust from the long, hot and very dry summers could have a detrimental effect on solar energy. But Sacramento has some HUGE commercial solar arrays that have become quite successful. According to the article the reason for the current high price has to do the demand in foreign countries.
In keeping up with this issue in the past I know the rationale for infusing 3 billion into the market is to try and attempt to make the industry self sufficient. The other roadblock to overcome is consumer education.

Whatever it takes to reduce the dependence on fossil fuels.

[kl7aj]

Back in the late 70s my dad worked for the California department of wind energy when they were doing all the mapping for Altamira Pass. I think that's still the world's biggest wind farm. Because it's all privately owned, I think it's a great economic model. I think if private parties wanted to by square footage of solar panel, it would work


eric

[k6pme]

Yes, those would be the ones on hwy 205 just west of Tracy. Anymore though I see fewer and fewer of them turning. I don't know why but my theory is that due to age and falling out of favor they have become too expensive to maintain. Thats too bad since there seems to thousands of them.

[K0RGR]

I suspect the Altamont windmills are getting pretty long in the tooth. They are all generation 1, and they're up to about generation 10 now - much more efficient machines. The owner might not have the capital to replace them with newer machines, but their age has probably made parts less available. There were spells when I lived out there when the windmills would seem to die off, then come back.

That, of course, is another California energy advantage - the wind will always blow from the ocean to the inland areas - much more reliably I think than most places on earth. Even here near the Buffalo Commons, the wind dies once in a while. I remember the joy of trying to drive a big van through the Altamont on a windy day! You'd turn your wheels to the right in order to go left.

[WB2WIK]

The windmills they are a-turning plenty in Palm Springs...they have very low electric rates per kWh because they get most of their power from the wind. They seem to keep those up to date just fine.

Here in L.A., the DWP heavily subsidizes anyone who wants to install solar panels. The homeowner does the installation and DWP provides $8,000 offset allowance to help pay for it. They approve the install and allow you to pump power back into the grid, using an approved switch. If you generate more power than you consume, they pay you for it. My next door neighbor makes about $100 a month from this, as they have only two people living in a large home with a roof full of panels...instead of paying an electric bill, he gets a check.

I'm thinking of doing the same thing, but that would involve removing several antennas and a roof tower, so I've been dragging my feet...

It's a great idea, though, whose time has obviously come!

WB2WIK/6

[WB2WIK]

If you didn't know, the Sacramento, CA area is also the leading R&D Center in the world for development of hydrogen fuel cell powered motor vehicles. There are 31 member companies, including all the major car manufacturers of the world, cooperating in a joint effort to verify and produce hydrogen fuel cell cars, buses and trucks and I can't wait until they're on the market, completely replacing our reliance on petroleum products.

The sooner, the better! Prototypes have been running for years. One hour-long "California's Green" television show (Huell Howser) was devoted entirely to this last year, and the cars are powerful, fast, eerily quiet, get great mileage and emit only water vapor.

http://www.fuelcellpartnership.org/

WB2WIK/6

[KD6NIG]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ April 21 2006,13:52)]I suspect the Altamont windmills are getting pretty long in the tooth. They are all generation 1, and they're up to about generation 10 now - much more efficient machines. The owner might not have the capital to replace them with newer machines, but their age has probably made parts less available. There were spells when I lived out there when the windmills would seem to die off, then come back.

That, of course, is another California energy advantage - the wind will always blow from the ocean to the inland areas - much more reliably I think than most places on earth. Even here near the Buffalo Commons, the wind dies once in a while. I remember the joy of trying to drive a big van through the Altamont on a windy day! You'd turn your wheels to the right in order to go left.
They aren't being replaced due to a contract fight between the new owner of them and people who claim that many birds are being killed by them as they are supposedly placed in a 'migration route'.

That and the fact that some of them had a manufacturing defect, causing the turbines to generate very hot shavings which in turn set the grass below them on fire.

A good portion of them have been retired, or lately, used for parts to fix the remaining ones still standing.

You could get a heck of a ham tower out of the things they put them on though, if they gave them away. #I don't think they are.

Sacramento has had some solar pushing thanks to SMUD. #They have an installation over part of the parking lot at Cal Expo. #I know they were working on building a natural gas fired plant near the old Rancho Seco site, but I don't know if thats been put on hold now due to the natual gas prices we've been seeing lately.

But without significant subsidies or the cost of solar going down, I don't see the average family throwing that kind of money at it. #Its simply still to easy to plug into the grid and pay that monthly assessment for lights and other power needs.

If you ever drive into Oroville in Butte county, you'll see a nice large solar installation next to the freeway. It powers the Butte County Government Center and I believe a Sherrifs substation with a small jail planned in the future. Supposedly except on the most cloudy of days they are making enough to supply all thier needs plus sell a little bit back to PG&E. Go a bit further up the hill and you'll see PG&E's hydro dams and powerhouses in the Feather River Canyon. I think except for the Pit river (up near Redding Ca.) there isn't hydro on that big of a scale in N. Ca. I can't speak for Socal, they may have some too, but I don't think there has been much new hydro lately anywhere, to be honest.

I'm sure the Butte County installation will probably realise its cost savings in a few years. Course, they had the resources to build it and the ability to wait for it to turn a profit. The average family doesn't.

[N6BOA]

Quote[/b] (KG6QQL @ April 21 2006,13:36)]Yes, those would be the ones on hwy 205 just west of Tracy. Anymore though I see fewer and fewer of them turning. I don't know why but my theory is that due to age and falling out of favor they have become too expensive to maintain. Thats too bad since there seems to thousands of them.
Not to mention the amazing amount of real estate needed to "plant" such a crop! It isn't economically feasible in a State as big as California (population size, not acreage). Those windmills don't produce enough power to justify the square footage thay take up.

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (N6BOA @ April 21 2006,16:23)]Not to mention the amazing amount of real estate needed to "plant" such a crop! It isn't economically feasible in a State as big as California (population size, not acreage). Those windmills don't produce enough power to justify the square footage thay take up.
The North Slope of Alaska is about the same size as the entire state of California, and the wind up here is almost always blowing stiffly. The entire area has the same stiff winds that blow unceasing for days and days. The amount of energy that the wind up here represents could easily power ALL of the country's energy needs. Just use it to break hydrogen out of water, and ship the hydrogen south.

There would be no pollution except some water vapor from burning the hydrogen; no atmospheric carbon loading; no cancerous fumes; no national groveling to Middle Eastern nomads.

[N6BOA]

"The North Slope of Alaska is about the same size as the entire state of California"

California doesn't have the luxury of so much free space. Too many people. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[k6pme]

Isn't THAT the truth... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif But you did bring up a pretty valid point. That some very valuable real estate on the Altamont.

[k6pme]

Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ April 21 2006,15:01)]If you didn't know, the Sacramento, CA area is also the leading R&D Center in the world for development of hydrogen fuel cell powered motor vehicles. #There are 31 member companies, including all the major car manufacturers of the world, cooperating in a joint effort to verify and produce hydrogen fuel cell cars, buses and trucks and I can't wait until they're on the market, completely replacing our reliance on petroleum products.

The sooner, the better! #Prototypes have been running for years. #One hour-long "California's Green" television show (Huell Howser) was devoted entirely to this last year, and the cars are powerful, fast, eerily quiet, get great mileage and emit only water vapor.

http://www.fuelcellpartnership.org/

WB2WIK/6
No I didn't know it was LEADING R/D center for fuel cell technology. I knew that that some work going on but that was it. I would love to see some of those cars hit the market soon.

[WB2WIK]

Quote[/b] (KG6QQL @ April 21 2006,17:04)]Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ April 21 2006,15:01)]If you didn't know, the Sacramento, CA area is also the leading R&D Center in the world for development of hydrogen fuel cell powered motor vehicles. There are 31 member companies, including all the major car manufacturers of the world, cooperating in a joint effort to verify and produce hydrogen fuel cell cars, buses and trucks and I can't wait until they're on the market, completely replacing our reliance on petroleum products.

The sooner, the better! Prototypes have been running for years. One hour-long "California's Green" television show (Huell Howser) was devoted entirely to this last year, and the cars are powerful, fast, eerily quiet, get great mileage and emit only water vapor.

http://www.fuelcellpartnership.org/

WB2WIK/6
No I didn't know it was LEADING R/D center for fuel cell technology. I knew that that some work going on but that was it. I would love to see some of those cars hit the market soon.
It's by far the LEADING R&D center for this, as the only one having active participation from every major automobile manufacturer in the world.

Each contributes to the knowledge base and they share in the results. This is almost unheard of among rivals.

Nothing else going on anywhere that duplicates this kind of effort or team.

When I saw a demo of a generic hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicle up there, I almost fell over....so fast and powerful, yet so incredibly silent. The only sound that could be heard as the car was accelerating 0 to 60 in 6.5 seconds was the noise the tires made on the pavement.

"Revving" the engine while stopped produces literally no sound. So much for hot rodding from stop lights.

WB2WIK/6

[k6pme]

I checked out the website breifly and they have two Earth Day events, today and the 28 April. Unfortunately I am working. But they also have a California Fuel Cell Partnership Public Tour on the fourth friday of every month in West Sacramento. Being that West Sac is only about 30 minutes from me I'm going to call Monday to see about attending on 26 May. (Thats if I can afford the gas in my GMC, hows that for irony?)

I've been wanting to see one of these things for awhile now.

[N7VQM]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ April 21 2006,13:05)]Real mass-production of solar cells should bring the prices down much further.
Advances in silcon chip production processes should help with that, too. #However, as the demand for photovoltaic cells increases, so could the cost of other electronic goods because they both compete for the silicon raw wafer supply. #However, we could get lucky and the rise in component cost would be less than the decrease in energy cost.

[kb2vxa]

It won't get far with global dimming. What's that? Seems you've had your head too far up the global warming thing. FYI, California is one of the most affected areas on the planet, ever wonder why?

They can use more turbines, the wind isn't the only thing that blows in California. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[k6pme]

Quote[/b] (kb2vxa @ April 22 2006,14:51)]It won't get far with global dimming. What's that? Seems you've had your head too far up the global warming thing. FYI, California is one of the most affected areas on the planet, ever wonder why?

They can use more turbines, the wind isn't the only thing that blows in California. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Whare's the love in THAT? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[K0RGR]

Quote[/b] (N7VQM @ April 22 2006,13:33)]Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ April 21 2006,13:05)]Real mass-production of solar cells should bring the prices down much further.
Advances in silcon chip production processes should help with that, too. However, as the demand for photovoltaic cells increases, so could the cost of other electronic goods because they both compete for the silicon raw wafer supply. However, we could get lucky and the rise in component cost would be less than the decrease in energy cost.
I thought that there had been real advances made in "amorphous" solar cells that were not made on silicon wafers.

FB on the fuel cell development. We're all waiting!

If Mr. Bush wants history to remember him as being better than Nixon, a good way would be to forego the next round of tax cuts for the billionaires, and use the money to expedite the deployment of key energy technologies.

By the way, we here in corn country disagree with the oil company propaganda claiming that it takes more energy to make ethanol than it creates. That's based on very old numbers. Ethanol plants are now much more efficient, and getting more so all the time.

Look out for the naysayers - a lot of the opposition to new energy terchnologies is from those with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. After all, if we stop using oil, what will Texas do for a living?

[k6pme]

Hmm...Interesting. I finally looked at the newspaper today and there is a big article in it about fuel cell technology. If anyone is interested it's www.sacbee.com. You have to register but it's harmless. (I get an e-mail about every 2 months that I delete)

[N7VQM]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ April 22 2006,16:47)]I thought that there had been real advances made in "amorphous" solar cells that were not made on silicon wafers.
The amorphous cells are thin-film type made using silicon vapor deposition. #They're not highly efficient, but they're cheap and, like you said, don't use wafers. #However, the wafer-based cells are still the most common.

Some interesting info in the Wikipedia solar cell article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cells).