HOW about some HONESTY

[k4lem]

I have heard so many US-DX qsos where a phony 599 was gushed out perhaps to get a 599 back?

Oh, well, if it makes, ya feel good ...
Many stations depend on reliable reports to guage antennas and propagation.

On 75 I have heard this so often its rediculsu.

59 plus TWENTY, then would you repeat your name and qth. I have high QRN. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[W7WV]

I was told by a club on a Field Day that to put anything else out but 599 is a waste of valuable time for the contest.
Maybe that's one of the reasons why I am not a contestor.

[k4lem]

Quote[/b] (W7WV @ Mar. 28 2006,08:35)]I was told by a club on a Field Day that to put anything else out but 599 is a waste of valuable time for the contest.
Maybe that's one of the reasons why I am not a contestor.
Then I would guess drop the report all together. Some contests such as Sprint and NA do NOT use any report, just information gained from the contacting interchanging stations. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[ai4ep]

..or you could tell the other station--- "muffled audio, please repeat your id and location "...or something similar.
...or just tell them to turn the ECHO / REVERB knob back to the left .


That would get their attention.

[W3MIV]

The signal quality quantifier has become more of a "password" for contesting than a measure of objective quality. Most logging and contesting programs, in fact, have "59" set as the default and it is far more time and trouble to change than it is worth.

There is a time and place for everything, and an accurate signal quality report during a contest is not such a time. Even with many "rare" DX contacts -- 3Y0X is a prime example -- the number itself has become a mere formality and its passage between stations more a part of a tradition than any attempt to quantify a report.

It is archaic, at best, and the more so with digital or SSB contacts. There have been many, many attempts to break the habit of using a CW signal qualifier for other modes, but nothing has stuck quite so hard.

".... again? ......again? ......AGAIN!?..... wheeeskey thuh-ree mexico eeetaly veeektoria is OK? ........ QSL. you seegnal report 59 and thanx for QSO. QRZed.... "

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[k4lem]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Mar. 28 2006,09:14)]The signal quality quantifier has become more of a "password" for contesting than a measure of objective quality. Most logging and contesting programs, in fact, have "59" set as the default and it is far more time and trouble to change than it is worth.

There is a time and place for everything, and an accurate signal quality report during a contest is not such a time. Even with many "rare" DX contacts -- 3Y0X is a prime example -- the number itself has become a mere formality and its passage between stations more a part of a tradition than any attempt to quantify a report.

It is archaic, at best, and the more so with digital or SSB contacts. There have been many, many attempts to break the habit of using a CW signal qualifier for other modes, but nothing has stuck quite so hard.

".... again? ......again? #......AGAIN!?..... wheeeskey thuh-ree mexico eeetaly veeektoria is OK? ........ #QSL. you seegnal report 59 and thanx for QSO. QRZed.... "

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
[QUOTE]

Yes, right.. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[ne3r]

I've mentioned before, I cringe at sending a 59 to a station I can barely copy, and I sure wish I could get a more meaningful report, there is nothing like repeating your call sign six times and getting a 59 or 599.

Is it really harder to say or copy 43, or send or copy 579? I don't think so. In the 10 meter contest, I sent actual reports, this weekend, I said 53 001 and I got, QSL 59 001.

Baseball is a contest, does every time the bat makes contact with the ball count as a home run? No.

73
Joe
N3PAQ

[k4lem]

Quote[/b] (N3PAQ @ Mar. 28 2006,11:12)]I've mentioned before, I cringe at sending a 59 to a station I can barely copy, and I sure wish I could get a more meaningful report, there is nothing like repeating your call sign six times and getting a 59 or 599.

Is it really harder to say or copy 43, or send or copy 579? #I don't think so. #In the 10 meter contest, I sent actual reports, this weekend, I said 53 001 and I got, QSL 59 001. #

Baseball is a contest, does every time the bat makes contact with the ball count as a home run? #No.

73
Joe
N3PAQ
[QUOTE]

I conclude after 46 years, only two and possibly three factors inflence signals.

1. propagation and the take off angle the I's phere is looking for.

2. The efficency and possible gain of your antenna. This includes often a take off angle determined by relative height above ground and over all in clearness of your antennas

I heard a mobile cw station call an LX on 40 cw last afternoon. I was using Delta and 400 watts. The LX was in QSB, but about 579 peaking 589.
I got a 559 after his inability to get my call for a few tries.

This was 1600 EDST so lots of day light left here.
A station to my chargin who was not overly LOUD here
K1UA calls the LX and gets 599.
Think about it. New England and maybe near Ocean location made a difference.

Not that his antenna hugely superior to mine.

Later in evening I got a call for Ahmid, TA4A.
Gave him a 589 and got 599 back.

Many times I hear DX give a crumy report to a USA station very near me in four land. And the DX will be 589/599. Apparently the offended USA station lies and give a scotch report from spite?

Reports have, recall a lot to do with the noise at other end too.
One guy EA3JE, the splatter monkey, calls CQ on 80 with a 20 db over s9 signal. But he should basically reduce his power, which I am told is a Henry 10K 9kw amp and get a better receiver. 97 percent of stations that call him he just cannot hear.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[nr4aw]

I know what you mean. I hate getting a phoney sig report. It is just a wast of time! I try my best to give accurate reports anytime except when in a contest(which I rarely am). And even then I do it anyway. I just dont get it, they have to right (or type) a new callsign and serial number each time, what is so hard about doing the same with the RST?

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (ki4kgw @ Mar. 28 2006,12:13)]I just dont get it, they have to right (or type) a new callsign and serial number each time, what is so hard about doing the same with the RST?
You are missing the point entirely: the signal report is unimportant, and it is more effort to change the already entered default "59" than is worth it, on an "efficiency" basis -- which is all most contesters are interested in.

It is all a matter of contacts-per-hour and not at all about the quality of those contacts.

Remember too, when it is that hard to copy the call sign and the serial exchange, it is all that much more trying to also try to copy some figure other than the expected "59."

KISS is the best rule here.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[WB2WIK]

Quote[/b] (W7WV @ Mar. 28 2006,06:35)]I was told by a club on a Field Day that to put anything else out but 599 is a waste of valuable time for the contest.
Maybe that's one of the reasons why I am not a contestor.
That was poor advice, since a Field Day exchange doesn't include a signal report, at all. The FD exchange is callsign, classification and ARRL section.

WB2WIK/6

[WB2WIK]

Re the original subject:

I give signal reports based on my ears and not my S-meter. Somebody can definitely be 20/S9 and unreadable for any number of reasons, in which case I'll give a "39" or less report.

If the station I'm working is the only signal on a quiet band, he may be S1 and easily "sound" S9, in which case, he's 59.

The "59" exchange in many contests is silly and the default exchange. All the logging programs fill it in automatically, making it extra work to go back and change it. We might as well exchange first names and make everybody Bob.

I like the FD or SS exchanges much better, where meaningful information is exchanged.

WB2WIK/6

[PE1RDW]

Contest stations really hate me as I always give honest reports, 37 is 37 and not 59

[k4lem]

Quote[/b] (PE1RDW @ Mar. 28 2006,13:47)]Contest stations really hate me as I always give honest reports, 37 is 37 and not 59
The truth is I bet if you ask 80 percent of USA stations what exactly 59 means, they would NOT know.

And with cw the tone part is seldom useful, but sometimes there will be clicks or chirps. Not often due to non homebrew rigs in universal use now.

But its rediculus to give a staion a 5... xx if you need them to repeat their bloom'in call 15 times. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[k4kyv]

Quote[/b] (W7WV @ Mar. 28 2006,06:35)]I was told by a club on a Field Day that to put anything else out but 599 is a waste of valuable time for the contest.
Maybe that's one of the reasons why I am not a contestor.
All the more reason why contests are a waste of valuable time (and spectrum).

[kj5t]

As a contester I will chime in on this one. I am very aware of what 59 means and what 22 means and what 37 means, etc. However, like W3MIV said, during the contest I would care less about my actual signal report. As for removing the signal report from the contest exchange, I would not be against that. Why not just send the serial number or name or state or whatever is needed? In any case, I will still work the contest.

[n0iu]

This reminds me of the piece in the April edition of QST several years ago. It seems there was this company that designed the perfect HF antenna. It was small, lightweight, broadbanded, inexpensive, and so on. They knew it performed well, but the real test of any piece of gear is how well it performs under the rigorous conditions of a contest. They knew they had a real winner because everyone in the contest gave them a 599 signal report!

Scott NØIU

[w8cbc]

I give honest reports by ear. Strong signal buried in overpowering local noise - 28. Weak signal, perfectly clear - 51. In CW, I've only once copied a signal that sounded like it deserved less than a 9 for "tone" - and it turned out that it was my noise limiter reacting to the local hash.

I heard a 4o3aa with pileup in 80 metres Sunday night. 59s everywhere. How? I could barely copy him. 33 at best - which is what I would have reported had I made it through.

[WA9SVD]

Cough! CHOKE!

HONEST reports? You have to be kidding!

A few years ago, I was working a "DX" station during a contest, and gave him an honest 4x3 report, after he gave me the ol' 5x9. Rather than going on to confirm the exchange, he berated me and said "(expletive deleted) everyone gives out a 5x9 or 5-9-9 report" and went on to another station without confirming our contact.

I was just operating the contest to give out points; he lost mine.

And I still give out reports for what I HEAR, not what another stations wants. (I wish everyone would.)

Besides, it's only a reflection on my own station; the fellow down the street with the 5 el. Yagi at 70 feet will probably hear a station a LOT better than my dipole between the house and garage. That's not a reflection on the other station, merely on the pathetic antenna I have at the moment.

[k4lem]

Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ Mar. 28 2006,18:00)]Cough! #CHOKE!

# #HONEST reports? #You have to be kidding!

# #A few years ago, I was working a "DX" station during a contest, and gave him an honest 4x3 report, after he gave me the ol' 5x9. #Rather than going on to confirm the exchange, he berated me and said "(expletive deleted) everyone gives out a 5x9 or 5-9-9 report" and went on to another station without confirming our contact.

# #I was just operating the contest to give out points; he lost mine.

# #And I still give out reports for what I HEAR, not what another stations wants. #(I wish everyone would.)

# #Besides, it's only a reflection on my own station; the fellow down the street with the 5 el. Yagi at 70 feet will probably hear a station a LOT better than my dipole between the house and garage. #That's not a reflection on the other station, merely on the pathetic antenna I have at the moment.
Well, the art of amateur radio is communication ( a social skill) and radio science, all the rest.

Small wire antennas that work always impress me more than these HUGE arrays that appear to be commercial shortwave broadcast stations.

What gets me is stations such as K1XX and others like his get in contests and rack up HUGE scores. A score often will be given a multiplier for less than 100 watts, but should be given a derating if the station is using five over five stacked arrays on 210 foot towers.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[wg7x]

K4LEM sez:Quote[/b] ]What gets me is stations such as K1XX and others like his get in contests and rack up HUGE scores. A score often will be given a multiplier for less than 100 watts, but should be given a derating if the station is using five over five stacked arrays on 210 foot towers.


Gary,

Most contests, have divisions within the test that allow some of this type of ranking. Not all, but some. For example, the CQ WPX test this last week-end has a tri-bander and wires category. This means that the folks in that category only compete with others in the same class.

Kind of like handicapping in golf, I guess...

The big stations will always be there, and if you want to compete head-to-head with them, you have to be willing and able to put out the same level of effort that they do.

Station building is only part of the picture. You must also assemble a top-notch team if you want to win all the marbles!

But you knew that already didn't you? I think somebody is trolling, trolling trolling along.

You'll get no fish with that bait!

73 Gary WG7X

[kf6rdn]

Quote[/b] (k4lem @ Mar. 28 2006,15:36)]Small wire antennas that work always impress me more than these HUGE arrays that appear to be commercial shortwave broadcast stations.

What gets me is stations such as K1XX and others like his get in contests and rack up HUGE scores. A score often will be given a multiplier for less than 100 watts, but should be given a derating if the station is using five over five stacked arrays on 210 foot towers.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Be nice if they had a category for stealth antennas as well.

Rather then qrp, how about low ERP? I'm running 1.5KW into a rubber duck. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

A'well will never happen. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[w8cbc]

As another pea-shooter op, I'm with it! I was darned proud of putting a Q5 signal into Ireland and the UK one night in 80 metres with my 100 watts into a sneakwire. Someone a little west of me with 90 watts and a little less wire made it across too. It was a good night for us Low-ERP types.

[AG3Y]

As I have said so many times before, I am NOT a contester, but I do agree emphatically that the exchange involving the fake signal report does NOT have a place in any modern contest. It would be far more educational and beneficial to have an exchange that gives information as to ( maybe roughly, but whatever ) what ERP you are running, what grid square you are in, and certainly a serial number so the other station has some idea of how big a gun he is working ! This mindless exchange of "59" is worthless and should be discontinued!

73, Jim

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Mar. 28 2006,22:14)]As I have said so many times before, I am NOT a contester, but I do agree emphatically that the exchange involving the fake signal report does NOT have a place in any modern contest. It would be far more educational and beneficial to have an exchange that gives information as to ( maybe roughly, but whatever ) what ERP you are running, what grid square you are in, and certainly a serial number so the other station has some idea of how big a gun he is working ! This mindless exchange of "59" is worthless and should be discontinued!

73, Jim
Yep Jim, ur 5-9-9 and 60 over here! Power is 1500 uWatts into 5 el. Yagi. (OOPS, did I say 1500 uWatts? I mean1500 Watts.) Ur Serial# 12,234,599. (I started at 12,234,598...)

As long as there are contests, there will be those that abuse, misuse, accuse, and just plain cheat the system. All for an ego boost and maybe a piece of paper or a byline in fine print in a magazine.
The "signal report" is a mere formallity, and of no help at all, so should be removed as a contact "proof." But what to substitute? Some contests want name, rank and serial number; or age, birthdate, Social Security Number, or what not.
But the problem isn't limited to contests, unfortunately. Many operators will be offended and incensed if they don't receive a "5x9" report, no matter what. (UR 5x1 into my dummy load at 6 feet... below ground in the basement, OM. Better check your antenna or turn up the power.)

WA9SVD's 3rd Law: It's better to get a 5x1 report than a 1x5 report...

When I get/give a report, it's as much a reflection on MY antenna system as it is a comment on the other station.

[NN3W]

Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ Mar. 29 2006,15:24)]# #As long as there are contests, there will be those that abuse, misuse, accuse, and just plain cheat the system. #All for an ego boost and maybe a piece of paper or a byline in fine print in a magazine. #
#
Interesting thought, but K1MAN is not a contester. Nor are the wonderful, courteous hams on 3910....

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (NN3W @ Mar. 29 2006,19:08)]Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ Mar. 29 2006,15:24)] As long as there are contests, there will be those that abuse, misuse, accuse, and just plain cheat the system. All for an ego boost and maybe a piece of paper or a byline in fine print in a magazine.

Interesting thought, but K1MAN is not a contester. Nor are the wonderful, courteous hams on 3910....
More interesting. I've never intentionally listened to K1MAN, and the few times I came across his signal, I moved away quickly. And I don't operate on 80/75 Meters. Guess I'm just lucky!!!

[k0cmh]

Until this last SSB contest, I always gave accurate signal reports. But I just gave up and went with the flow this time.

However, I did post in another thread how I did give some actual reports, such as 56 57, and got back "QSL your 59 54". I don't think most contesters ever hear the actual words or numbers of the signal report. It is just a sound they hear where it is supposed to be.

However, in my non-contest contacts I always give as accurate report as I possibly can. However, I always try to give the the information about my antenna, it being a dipole in my 2nd floor attic. That way they can judge better the meaning of my sometimes less than perfect reports.

I usually get less than a 59 or 599 in return. It usually only happens when I also send a 59/599. So for non-contesting it still works for me.

Bottom line, I think the signal report has become rediculous and useless in a contest. I understand (possibly incorrectly) that it was supposed to help authenticate the contact, but since everyone automatically says 59, then it serves no purpose.

Now I will admit to being a scoundral. Twice during this past SSB contest I did the following: after receiving a station's report, I simply said back "thank you and good luck." Both times they immediately replyed "what's my number". I replied with only their serial number, not the signal report. I got back "thanks" and then"QRZed". I immediately keyed back and said " do you want the signal report". The reply in both cases was "thanks QRZed".

So much for signal reports in contests.

[kl7aj]

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Mar. 28 2006,07:04)]..or you could tell the other station--- "muffled audio, please repeat your id and location "...or something similar.
...or just tell them to turn the ECHO / REVERB knob back to the left .


That would get their attention.
Reminds me of this Far Side cartoon I saw. This farmer had this red hot branding iron that said, "This cow is the property of Farmer Jones. Do not attempt to steal this cow under penalty of law. State Penal Code 99-45835 Rev.6"

The cow had this look of horror on his face. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

eric

[k4lem]

Quote[/b] (kd8bsr @ Mar. 28 2006,23:58)]As another pea-shooter op, I'm with it! #I was darned proud of putting a Q5 signal into Ireland and the UK one night in 80 metres with my 100 watts into a sneakwire. #Someone a little west of me with 90 watts and a little less wire made it across too. #It was a good night for us Low-ERP types.
Those FOUR square guys from Ireland have incredible ears. They hear US stations I have trouble copying. No wonder they're often as strong or stronger in NA than NA stations.

Usually the vertical DX ops will be relatively light in US since their take off angles are low and if they're smart, they have lots of radials also.

I have heard nights, maybe its a combination of low absorption and relatively high wave angle, that produce incredible signals from 100 watts and low dipoles.
After all on 80 meters, what dipole is anything other than a low dipole. A wavelength is 250 feet above ground!