Silly APRS presentation

[N5PVL]

The other night at our local club meeting, we had a guest there who gave a brief presentation on APRS.

The presentation was fairly good, but then the guy started acting strange, and ended up insisting that there was total VHF coverage of the United States with APRS; That no matter where you drive in the US, there will always be an APRS digi that you can utilize on 2 meters.

At this, several eyebrows went up, but we were too polite to argue with a guest who had suddenly taken on the demeanor of a religious nut, obviously ready to make a big stink if everybody didn't go along with his obvious lie.

I wondered what kind of a weirdo this guy was, and then he clarified matters by stating that he was a big fan of WinLink.

Oh, that kind.

I had trouble understanding what this fellow thought he was gaining by making wild and ridiculous claims which marred what othertwise might have been a fair presentation on APRS. At first he had a few club members interested but when he went off into foo-foo land, I'm afraid he also lost the critical mass of support that he might otherwise have garnered there.

It's doubtful now that more than one or two club members will become involved in APRS if any, and that's a shame.

I guess the guy had gotten so used to feeding his fellow hams BS about the Lid-like WinLink system that he thought it was necessary to BS them about APRS too.

[N8YX]

Explosion in three...two...one...

[AC3P]

Maybe he thought that the process of a gateway station picking up the signal on APRS and posting the positions on the Internet was ther same as nationwide 2 meter coverage.

[N5PVL]

Gosh I dunno.... His statement was that no matter where you go in the US, there is VHF #access to an APRS digipeater. He specified that there was no section of highway where this was not so. #- National VHF coverage, in other words, which is patently silly.

To get the full effect though, you would have to have seen his behavior suddenly change when he made his weird statement, as if he was aware that he was lying and was ready to act aggressively if anybody called him on it. - Basically a religious fanatic routine.

I'm pretty sure that on some level at least that he knew he had left reason behind and was sensitive about it. I felt sorry for the guy because he was obviously messed up somehow, and up to that point he had done a really good job on his presentation.

Have you ever read Kurt Vonnegut's description of the totalitarian mind? - Vonnegut likened it to a cuckoo clock from hell which had a bad tooth on one of its gears... It would keep perfect time until that bad tooth rolled around and then the hands would go backward, the little bird would pop in and out at random - and then it would grind its way past that bad gear and start keeping perfect time again.

It was kind of like that. Once the guy got past his bogus statement and moved on, he went right back to giving a good presentation and acted normal again. By that point though, he had lost a good portion of his audience.

[K0CMH]

Maybe he runs a quad phased loop array and a 1 Kw amp on his mobile rig. Of course, anyone within a mile of him on the highway would have their lunch warmed up. . . .

Seriously, isn't there capability of a satelite link for ARPS?

[WA3KYY]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Mar. 08 2006,08:55)]Gosh I dunno.... His statement was that no matter where you go in the US, there is VHF #access to an APRS digipeater. He specified that there was no section of highway where this was not so. #- National VHF coverage, in other words, which is patently silly.
Guess he's never driven along I-70 and then I-76 from Maryland through Pennsylvania on the way to Dayton. I was watching several of my club's members last year and there were numerous locations along the route where they were not within the coverage range of a digipeater. Since the web site had the ability to show other APRS signals along the same route, you could see that all stations in certain sections were not able to reach a digipeater. I don't think the situation has changed since last May.

And I wonder just what the coverage is out in the sprasely populated areas of the Great Plains along the interstates not to mention when you move off into the surrounding areas.

73,
Mike

[KA4DPO]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Mar. 08 2006,07:41)]The other night at our local club meeting, we had a guest there who gave a brief presentation on APRS.


At this, several eyebrows went up, but we were too polite to argue with a guest who had suddenly taken on the demeanor of a religious nut, obviously ready to make a big stink if everybody didn't go along with his obvious lie.
Lucky for that Bozo that Janet Reno isn't a member of your club. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[AE6YD]

On a good day, with an excellent antenna set-up, a lot of power and favorable tropo it just might be possible...

On a serious note, I don't even think there's nationwide VHF repeater coverage as of yet.

[K3UD]

or cell phone coverage http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[KC9ECI]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Mar. 08 2006,10:55)]Gosh I dunno.... His statement was that no matter where you go in the US, there is VHF #access to an APRS digipeater.
Sure there is. At certain times of the day. You have to be in the footprint of the ISS at the time...

[K0RGR]

Quote[/b] (WA3KYY @ Mar. 08 2006,09:27)]
Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Mar. 08 2006,08:55)]Gosh I dunno.... His statement was that no matter where you go in the US, there is VHF access to an APRS digipeater. He specified that there was no section of highway where this was not so. - National VHF coverage, in other words, which is patently silly.
Guess he's never driven along I-70 and then I-76 from Maryland through Pennsylvania on the way to Dayton. I was watching several of my club's members last year and there were numerous locations along the route where they were not within the coverage range of a digipeater. Since the web site had the ability to show other APRS signals along the same route, you could see that all stations in certain sections were not able to reach a digipeater. I don't think the situation has changed since last May.

And I wonder just what the coverage is out in the sprasely populated areas of the Great Plains along the interstates not to mention when you move off into the surrounding areas.

73,
Mike
Certainly, there are places where there is no coverage, except for the previously mentioned satellite passes.

However, I've wandered around large areas of Minnesota and Iowa, and I find that I'm in range of an APRS digi almost everywhere I go.

In Iowa, I was connected to APRS while mobiling through areas of NW Iowa where voice repeaters don't exist. The fellow that runs most of the APRS digis in Iowa insists that you can reach a gateway from everywhere in that state with only 2 hops through digis.

I took a fishing trip in Minnesota last fall out to a sparsely inhabited area in the west-central part of the state, and again, with only a few small breaks, even on low power, my tracker was received almost all the time.

A friend of mine took a trip from here in Minnesota out to Arizona, and then north to Oregon. Except for small areas in western Nebraska and Utah, his APRS tracker was received all along the route. Heck, that's better coverage than I have with my cellphone! Our local APRS'ers watch for their buddies travelling around the country and exchange realtime messages with them. You can also initiate an IRLP conversation with them if they're close to an IRLP node, and they can send and receive email via WINLINK, too.

If your point is that it isn't 'real radio' because it uses Internet gateways to tie the digipeater networks together, I don't think those who are using it and enjoying it really care. I wonder how many old packet digis have been converted over to APRS digis, like they were here? Our biggest problem is that there are too many of them around here, resulting in packet collisions and slowing the thruput.

[N5PVL]

K0RGR says:

Quote[/b] ]
I wonder how many old packet digis have been converted over to APRS digis, like they were here? Our biggest problem is that there are too many of them around here, resulting in packet collisions and slowing the thruput.

Naw, the problem with them is the old NetRom style software. FlexNet makes very good use of redundant routing.

[N5PVL]

So, the guy was quoting an urban legend? - Or maybe parroting an particularly bogus propaganda point?

[WA3KYY]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Mar. 08 2006,14:40)]If your point is that it isn't 'real radio' because it uses Internet gateways to tie the digipeater networks together, I don't think those who are using it and enjoying it really care. #I wonder how many old packet digis have been converted over to APRS digis, like they were here? Our biggest problem is that there are too many of them around here, resulting in packet collisions and slowing the thruput.
Where did you come up with that non-sequiter? I was simply demonstrating the falsness of the claim made at the club meeting as reported by N5PVL that APRS coverage was available everywhere in the US.

BTW, those areas I mentioned along I-70/I-76 are not sparsely populated. For whatever reason, they just do not have enough digipeaters to provide continuous coverage along the entire route. It wil be interesting to see if that has changed in a year's time.

73,
Mike WA3KYY

[WA9CWX]

RGR,

Very interesting, I do not have APRS operation in the car, but I often drop down from 146.52 to 144.39 and am amazed at how much digi activity I can hear, almost no matter where I am at.

[N4AUD]

I can assure you that right here where I sit at my home deep in the Appalachians, there is absolutely no contact with a digipeater. Period. Nor for many miles in any direction.

[AC0H]

Quote[/b] ]In Iowa, I was connected to APRS while mobiling through areas of NW Iowa where voice repeaters don't exist. The fellow that runs most of the APRS digis in Iowa insists that you can reach a gateway from everywhere in that state with only 2 hops through digis.

This is correct.
The NWS guys love it when the spotters who have APRS capability are out. It's an easy thing to look on the map and tell exactly where a spotter is and associate his/her report with radar.

[KC5SAS]

There is very little coverage between New Orleans and Jackson along I-55. I commute between South Baton Rouge and the Town of LaPlace, just outside of New Orleans. Lots of dropouts down I-10 on that commute. When I reach the worksite I'm 27 miles from either a New Orleans Digi or one south of Baton Rouge (Sorrento digi). Good luck getting in mobile or portable from 27 miles out.

[PE1RDW]

When I check bob's aprs population report I get the impresion that european population is more evenly spread out then usa population, resulting in smaller coverage gaps, offcourse the terain is also very different and we don't have the saturation levels that happen around the big cities in the usa.

maybe the european situation was what that guy had in mind http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[N5PVL]

I am one of three hams in Willacy county, Texas. where there are no APRS stations at all. North of Willacy county is Kenedy county, larger than some states, which basically is the King ranch. Lots of cattle, deer and wild hogs there, but hardly any hams.

The dweeb who claimed that there is no place in the USA without VHF APRS access had to drive through both of these Texas counties in order to attend the club meeting in Harlingen Texas, in Cameron county.

I guess he had his APRS stuff turned off for the last several hours of his trip, and so he didn't notice the fact that he was driving through an APRS black hole.

I wonder how much time he has spent driving around west Texas, where you are lucky to find a filling station within fifty miles, much less an amateur radio operator, much less an APRS digi?

My point here is that making obviously bogus claims doesn't convince anybody of anything except perhaps that you are a liar. Why somebody would screw up a perfectly good presentation that way is beyond me.

[KD6NIG]

I gave a small presentation on APRS last night at my local club meeting.

I stressed that it was NOT available everywhere after reading this yesterday. I think everyone there who has used it before knew that, but I didn't want to reperpetuate that myth.

I think I got a few guys interested in it though, which is cool.

[K0RGR]

Quote[/b] (WA3KYY @ Mar. 09 2006,07:35)]
Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Mar. 08 2006,14:40)]If your point is that it isn't 'real radio' because it uses Internet gateways to tie the digipeater networks together, I don't think those who are using it and enjoying it really care. I wonder how many old packet digis have been converted over to APRS digis, like they were here? Our biggest problem is that there are too many of them around here, resulting in packet collisions and slowing the thruput.
Where did you come up with that non-sequiter? I was simply demonstrating the falsness of the claim made at the club meeting as reported by N5PVL that APRS coverage was available everywhere in the US.

BTW, those areas I mentioned along I-70/I-76 are not sparsely populated. For whatever reason, they just do not have enough digipeaters to provide continuous coverage along the entire route. It wil be interesting to see if that has changed in a year's time.

73,
Mike WA3KYY
Jeez - you took that as a personal attack?

The APRS network is a worldwide network. If the guy said there were no holes in the network, then he was misinformed. There are lots of holes. But it's not AT+T, either. If you've ever logged into the APRS Internet connection, you would see where the holes are pretty fast.

It was not a non-sequitor. I was responding to PVL, who along with too many of the people here on www.flatearthradio.com, blasts all Internet-augmented ham radio functions every day and 3 times on Sunday.

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Mar. 08 2006,17:58)]So, the guy was quoting an urban legend? - Or maybe parroting an particularly bogus propaganda point?
Charles,

"Never attribute to malice (or conspiracy) that which can be attributed to sheer stu***ity. (Or merely over zealousness.)

I doubt the fellow had an insidious darker agenda. More likely, he was overenthusiastic about his particular endeavour, and exaggerated a bit.
So the thing to do is filter out the "not credible" information he may have provided, and assimilate the good, imformative parts of his presentation.

[N5PVL]

On an individual basis that is just fine... Unfortunately the fellow was addressing a room full of people and the effect of his dishonesty must be considered in that light.

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Mar. 10 2006,12:34)]On an individual basis that is just fine... Unfortunately the fellow was addressing a room full of people and the effect of his dishonesty must be considered in that light.
Charles,

I would hate to label the fellow as "dishonest" when "overzealous" may be more of an appropriate assessment. Unless he deliberately made claims that he knew were not true, he wasn't being dishonest. Misinformed, or overly optimistic. perhaps.
But I fear you may also be underestimating the rest of the audience of which you were part. Perhaps many of them knew enough to take his statements "with a grain of salt."
What you experienced is not unique to Amateur Radio, or to areas in Amateur Radio to which you disagree. (Or even with which you agree, support, and promote.)

[KE4PJW]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Mar. 10 2006,02:59)]The APRS network is a worldwide network. If the guy said there were no holes in the network, then he was misinformed. There are lots of holes. But it's not AT+T, either. If you've ever logged into the APRS Internet connection, you would see where the holes are pretty fast.
I would like to point out that digipeaters and igates are not the same thing. You can have plenty of digipeater coverage and your packets still may not be gated to the Internet. The coverage is larger than what is viewable on the net.

[N5PVL]

That's true. I had a digi set up here for a while in my rural location, and the clump of digis near Harlingen could not hear mine. As a result, it never appeared on the Internet maps.

It would surprise me to see a significant number of digis without an Igate though.

[N5PVL]

wa9svd says:

Quote[/b] ]
I would hate to label the fellow as "dishonest" when "overzealous" may be more of an appropriate assessment.

It was dishonesty.

Though nobody bothered to challenge the guy, he was obviously nervous and on the defensive about his statement. He knew it was a lie and he deliberately told it anyway.

You can call that overzealous if you like, but to me it is just plain lying.

Lying about how good something is - is just as destructive and dishonest as lying about how bad something is, and niether kind of lie has any place in the amateur radio community.

We may not all be better than that, but we most certainly should be trying. By the same token, we should expect better of a ham - any ham.

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Mar. 11 2006,16:02)]wa9svd says:

Quote[/b] ]
I would hate to label the fellow as "dishonest" when "overzealous" may be more of an appropriate assessment.

It was dishonesty.

Though nobody bothered to challenge the guy, he was obviously nervous and on the defensive about his statement. He knew it was a lie and he deliberately told it anyway.

You can call that overzealous if you like, but to me it is just plain lying.

Lying about how good something is - is just as destructive and dishonest as lying about how bad something is, and niether kind of lie has any place in the amateur radio community.

We may not all be better than that, but we most certainly should be trying. By the same token, we should expect better of a ham - any ham.
If you thought he was being deliberately dishonest, why NOT call him on it at the presentation? You may have missed a chance to set the fellow (and those in attendance) straight, so he wouldn't perpetuate misinformation.
If the fellow was deliberately spreading false information, then the logical thing would have been for someone to challenge his claims. Even if it wasn't deliberate, misinformation does no one any good if it's allowed to propagate.

[N5PVL]

I've tried that before, and have come to the conclusion that it is not worth disrupting a good club meeting over. The guy was a guest, he blew his presentation and I doubt anybody will remember him at all, by the time a few more club meetings have rolled by.

The folks who count were rolling thier eyes anyway, saying something would been just guilding the lilly.

[WA9SVD]

Not sure of your point then. If it "went over the head" of most of the club members, and those that understood what he was actually saying was in error, yet said nothing, what's the complaint? If he was in error, the proper thing would have been to politely ask him to verify or document his claims. Silence is usually construed as agreement; if you found his presentation was in error, it would have been much more productive and informative to the rest of your club to open a meaningful debate at his presentation, rather than taking the issue here, where the misinformation can't be undone.

[N5PVL]

Taking the issue here is productive, in that it instructs others who might be tempted to dishonesty in their presentations. It makes it quite clear that this kind of dishonesty does not return the desired result. As I mentioned, the fellow's presentation was pretty good before he marred it with this dishonesty.

The nature of the complaint should really be obvious. Do YOU like being lied to? Do YOU like seeing somebody blow what otherwise could be a very effective presentation?

I'll have to claim authority as to what is best done in my radio club's meetings. Projecting your own preference upon a club you have never attended is not very reasonable or realistic.

Sorry that this matter appears to be getting you so upset... To me it is a minor incident that is remarkable only in that it teaches a valuable lesson on the value of honesty when giving a presentation on a technical matter before your fellow hams.

[K6NCX]

Oh, come on. You found (at least, if we take your account at face value which is frankly a pretty big leap of faith) a bs artist who was an advocate of APRS and (Aha! The evil conspiracy!) Winlink.

And of course you've never encountered any bs artists who were enthusiasts for CW, or vacuum tubes, or AM, or 10 meters, or the Green Party, or post-tribulationalism, or Chevy trucks, Collins radios, or cubic quads.

Surely you can do better than this.

[N5PVL]

K6NCX speaks in defense of BS:

Quote[/b] ]
And of course you've never encountered any bs artists who were enthusiasts for CW, or vacuum tubes, or AM, or 10 meters, or the Green Party, or post-tribulationalism, or Chevy trucks, Collins radios, or cubic quads.

Of course I have! - But none of those were addressing a roomful of amateur radio operators, giving what was put forward as a technical presentation.

Perhaps BS is 'business as usual" for you, but personally I draw the line on BS included in what is supposed to be educational materiel.

Sorry to hear that you have such a casual, accepting attitude about BS, but I suppose it does explain much about your postings here on QRZ.

[WA9SVD]

I despise both BS and lies; but they are not one and the same, at least not in all cases. But by not even questioning what you felt was a lie, or deceptive statements, were you not also taking "...a casual, accepting attitude..." toward either the BS or what you perceived as lies?

[N5PVL]

I think I've wasted enough of my time responding to silly BS like that. #

SVD, I'll leave it to you to nit-pick the issue to the point of absurdity, and attempt to deconstruct the concept of verity.

Have at it, OM... #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Don't forget to wash your hands when you are through!

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Mar. 13 2006,11:09)]I think I've wasted enough of my time responding to silly BS like that.

SVD, I'll leave it to you to nit-pick the issue to the point of absurdity, and attempt to deconstruct the concept of verity.

Have at it, OM... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Don't forget to wash your hands when you are through!
Charles,
Guess we need to agree to disagree and move on before it gets too personal.

At least we agree on some things: Like "bad language" in another thread. (Or more specifically that it has no place on the Amateur bands.)

73, and good operating.

[N5PVL]

Might as well... I had my say on the first page, in the initial post.

I thought that the story would be instructive to other hams wanting to give a technical presentation as this is a pitfall that many manage to stub thier toe on, and it doesn't have to be that way if they know what to look out for.

[AE4XO]

He must NOT have driven south of Macon GA to Valdosta, We only have 1 digi in that 150 mile stretch.

[NE3R]

Quote[/b] (WA3KYY @ Mar. 09 2006,07:35)]BTW, those areas I mentioned along I-70/I-76 are not sparsely populated. For whatever reason, they just do not have enough digipeaters to provide continuous coverage along the entire route. It wil be interesting to see if that has changed in a year's time.

73,
Mike WA3KYY
APRS Coverage is solid on I70 from Baltimore to Hagerstown, in fact the coverage is fairly decent from on I70 to I68 to the WV border. There are some shadows, where a mountain is between your antenna and the digi antenna, but that happens. Basically, the same spots where you cant hit the FM repeaters in the area.

I might be giving a presentation to my club on APRS in a couple of months. Presentations and demonstrations seem to be the only thing that keeps the club running; last month we had a great one on CW keys.

73
Joe
N3PAQ