FCC Noncommital on Code Changes [Archive] - Page 2

w0vu

02-22-2006, 04:36 PM

Quote[/b] (k3ng @ Feb. 21 2006,10:06)]Quote[/b] (w0vu @ Feb. 22 2006,08:41)]Quote[/b] (k3ng @ Feb. 21 2006,09:03)]Quote[/b] (w0vu @ Feb. 22 2006,07:52)]Very well put, Charlie..
Quoting someone's license class in a CW debate is pretty weak and in my opinion, reprehensible as a ham. #Certainly not consistent with what ham radio is about. #Perhaps we should replace the CW test with a recitation of the Amateurs' Code.
You have your opinion, I have my opinion, thank you very much. Waiting for something for nothing is not my idea of Ham Radio either. #I rather had fun working 3Y0X 14 x's
on SSB, CW and RTTY. If I had waited for them to give me HF privileges I would have miss them... Plus the 312 other countries I have..

Bob w0vu
Did you work them with a homebrew rig and antenna, or did you take the easy way out and buy a commercial rig and antenna? #Did you work them QRP or take the easy road and operated QRO? #Also, did you take the "easy" code test in front of a VE, or the "harder" one that the FCC used to do? #If you took the easy way out on any of these, you got something for nothing, using your logic.
Read my Bio on QRZ OM!! All tests (5) but the first and last one in front of the FCC in KC, Mo.. I build all of my low band antennas here. Really don't have to answer to you on my qualifications here on this forum, I pass the CW test not because I was force to, but because I wanted the extra privileges that went with the new license. 5 wpm
is very easy to do. Enough said..

Bob w0vu

W0NCL

02-22-2006, 04:46 PM

I know a few folks that are just waiting for the CW requirements to drop out and think they would make great hams! Like other folks have said the sky hasnt fallen in other countries where this has happened. I have found myself learning so much from the diverse set of folks I have met on the radio and online, that I cant hardly wait for them to get on the air. Just let it go. 73 Mark W0NCL

wa4dou

02-22-2006, 04:49 PM

I have lobbyed in favor of relevant testing in posts made over the past few years. The entrance requirement into amateur radio and the intermediate grades has never required a great deal of effort. My gripe has been that even those requirements are being attacked as too much, yet I've seen no effort on the part of those doing it to offer up any sort of requirements that are relevant. The arguement has been to tear down and decry the existing requirements. The pattern is all to clear.

k3ng

02-22-2006, 04:56 PM

Quote[/b] (w0vu @ Feb. 22 2006,09:36)]Quote[/b] (k3ng @ Feb. 21 2006,10:06)]Quote[/b] (w0vu @ Feb. 22 2006,08:41)]Quote[/b] (k3ng @ Feb. 21 2006,09:03)]Quote[/b] (w0vu @ Feb. 22 2006,07:52)]Very well put, Charlie..
Quoting someone's license class in a CW debate is pretty weak and in my opinion, reprehensible as a ham. #Certainly not consistent with what ham radio is about. #Perhaps we should replace the CW test with a recitation of the Amateurs' Code.
You have your opinion, I have my opinion, thank you very much. Waiting for something for nothing is not my idea of Ham Radio either. #I rather had fun working 3Y0X 14 x's
on SSB, CW and RTTY. If I had waited for them to give me HF privileges I would have miss them... Plus the 312 other countries I have..

Bob w0vu
Did you work them with a homebrew rig and antenna, or did you take the easy way out and buy a commercial rig and antenna? #Did you work them QRP or take the easy road and operated QRO? #Also, did you take the "easy" code test in front of a VE, or the "harder" one that the FCC used to do? #If you took the easy way out on any of these, you got something for nothing, using your logic.
Read my Bio on QRZ OM!! #All tests (5) but the first and last one in front of the FCC in KC, Mo.. #I build all of my low band antennas here. #Really don't have to answer to you on my qualifications here on this forum, I pass the CW test not because I was force to, but because I wanted the extra privileges that went with the new license. 5 wpm
is very easy to do. # Enough said..

Bob w0vu
Ah, yes, but I see you bought a Hy-Gain antenna (you worked 3Y0X on 20 and some WARC bands, didn't you?), and I don't see anything about using a homebrew rig. #You took some shortcuts.

However, more seriously, you're not getting my point. #Your qualifications aren't in question, so relax. #What I'm getting at is that the bar that you had to pass was lower than that of your predecessors. #Again, using your logic, your ham predecessors could look down on you as getting a free ride.

Side question for you: #Would you have learned CW if there wasn't a test? #Would you work only phone DX today? #Did you put away CW after you got you much sought-after Extra privleges? #Your answers probably don't support your position on CW testing.

K4JF

02-22-2006, 05:00 PM

Quote[/b] (wa4dou @ Feb. 22 2006,07:46)]According to the latest qso statistics on the 3Y0X website, there were 43,659 qso's comprised of ssb,rtty, & jt65 modes. There were also 43,255 qso's made using that antiquated and archaic mode - cw.
Ssssshhhhh... can't say that on here. You're promoting an archaic mode that nobody uses anymore...... nobody.

k3ng

02-22-2006, 05:06 PM

Quote[/b] (wa4dou @ Feb. 22 2006,09:49)]I have lobbyed in favor of relevant testing in posts made over the past few years. The entrance requirement into amateur radio and the intermediate grades has never required a great deal of effort. My gripe has been that even those requirements are being attacked as too much, yet I've seen no effort on the part of those doing it to offer up any sort of requirements that are relevant. The arguement has been to tear down and decry the existing requirements. The pattern is all to clear.
So in lieu of harder written tests, you'd rather just keep an irrelevant test in place and watch our numbers continue to decline?

I don't spend a lot of time here and on eHam, but I don't recall droves of hams claiming written tests are too hard or should be eliminated. #I don't see an organization called "No Written Test International". #It's pretty much accepted that you can pass the written test with memorization.

The mere fact that you have to take a test and file paperwork is a barrier that keeps ham radio from turning into CB. #Part 97 is another deterrent.

While you and others may argue that the written test would logically be the next thing to go, there's nothing on the table with the FCC or any respectable ham heavily lobbying for this. #If I'm wrong, please cite some callsigns, FCC petitions, web sites....anything. #Until then, it's a theorectical argument with no concrete basis.

I'm all for pushing for better written tests, but standing behind the CW test while our base continues to erode just doesn't make much sense.

k3ng

02-22-2006, 05:12 PM

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Feb. 22 2006,10:00)]Quote[/b] (wa4dou @ Feb. 22 2006,07:46)]According to the latest qso statistics on the 3Y0X website, there were 43,659 qso's comprised of ssb,rtty, & jt65 modes. There were also 43,255 qso's made using that antiquated and archaic mode - cw.
Ssssshhhhh... can't say that on here. #You're promoting an archaic mode that nobody uses anymore...... #nobody.
I'm surpised he admited to working them on Satan Side Band, the evil mode. #:-)

K4JF

02-22-2006, 05:21 PM

Quote[/b] (k5okc @ Feb. 20 2006,14:57)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Feb. 20 2006,09:34)]You will never find the respect you're looking for as a gift.
The gift of billions of dollars of spectrum by the people of the United States, and of the World, means we should respect that gift with deeds just as worthy.

Knowing morse code is not a deed worthy of the gift of billions of dollars of spectrum.

Amateur Radio and FEMA failed the people last year, and the gifts future is in doubt.
Amateur radio did not fail at all. They came through when nobody else could. FEMA is another argument I won't go into here....

w0vu

02-22-2006, 05:23 PM

I do believe there is a Troll on this forum.

KG4NEL

02-22-2006, 05:28 PM

Quote[/b] (k3ng @ Feb. 22 2006,06:01)]Quote[/b] (KG4NEL @ Feb. 22 2006,00:00)]I just wonder what these forums will gripe about when the initial clamor over the FCC's decision settles down...it probably will take a year or two, but eventually, everyone will move on to something.

Hopefully, becoming more aware of the fact that there's a huge, fundamental rift between generations in amateur radio, and that denying that it exists or trying to see both sides from one viewpoint is a good way to get locked in a never-ending argument.

*shrugs*
You'll hear gripping about the decision for the next 30 years. Look at incentive licensing. This was done before before I was born (I'm 36)....and you still hear people whining about it.

I don't mind the CW debates so much as the demeaning tone and insults some of the pro-CW test people throw. It's just not right citing a ham's license class and talking down to them like they are second class operators.
Probably. Call me a closet optimist http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I've tuned out of this debate for a while now, as frankly the decision isn't in our hands anymore.

And, I have more important things to be concerned about...like college...and...studying...yeah, studying http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

N2EY

02-22-2006, 05:35 PM

Quote[/b] (k3ng @ Feb. 22 2006,09:17)]
Quote[/b] ]Who said any entry test of any kind is irrelevant? No one said there shouldn't be any kind of test.

Did you see the NCVEC proposal? They argued that the current Tech written is too tough.

Quote[/b] ] The test(s) need to be relevant. Read my earlier posts. Knowledge of regulations, basic communications protocols, and basic RF theory are relevant.

Morse Code is the second-most-popular mode on the HF/MF amateur bands. So a test for basic Morse Code skill is certainly relevant.

Quote[/b] ]I'll agree with you that the CW test requires effort, but it comes down to relevance. If test studying and effort is truly your goal, you should be lobbying for increased written test difficulty.

It's not about 'difficulty' but about qualifications.

The basic claim seems to be: 'why should I have to learn A in order to do B, when it's clear I can do B without knowing anything about A?'

The answer is that it's not just about what someone wants to do right now. It's about overall qualification in the amateur radio service.

Suppose someone just wants to operate QRP CW on 7010 kHz. Look at all the *written* exam material that must be learned to get the license! Is all of that stuff 'relevant'? Why must it all be learned just to get on 7010 with a couple of watts?

Quote[/b] ]If Amateur Radio is one of the institutions that is being torn down, what do you attribute the declining ham radio population to and what are your ideas on how to fix it?

The first problem is publicity - too many people don't know ham radio even exists.

The second problem is image - too many people have a highly inaccurate image of ham radio.

The third problem is that there isn't a lot of good simple new beginner equipment out there. Sure, you can get a lot more radio today for under $1000 than ever before. But suppose somebody wants a basic 100W 80-10 CW/SSB transceiver without a lot of knobs and menus, plus a simple antenna, tuner, power supply, mike, key, speaker, decent filters, cables, etc. How much for all that?

Sure, there's plenty of good used gear out there. But most people today are used to getting their electronics new, particularly when they don't know much about the technology yet and are spending serious $$. While a new computer may become a doorstop in a few years, yet a 20 year old ham rig can be perfectly usable, newcomers don't often see it that way.

The fourth problem is unreasonable antenna restrictions.

The fifth problem is that too much focus is being put on license requirements and not enough on problems 1,2 3 and 4.

In the 1970s the requirements were much different than now, the economy was terrible, American ham radio mfrs. were going out of business and cb got all the publicity. The new incentive licensing rules went into effect in 1968-69, and many said they would destroy ham radio because they made it so much tougher to get all privileges. Yet ham radio grew like mad in the 1970s.

In the 1980s the growth continued even though all ham licenses required a code test and there were no code waivers.

In 2000 the requirements for both code and written were reduced dramatically, yet we've lost ground in the past six years.

Do you think that maybe - just maybe - it's not about license requirements? That perhaps the kind of person we want to attract is the kind that wants a challenge?

73 de Jim, N2EY

n0doz

02-22-2006, 05:35 PM

Ham radio is no longer on the cutting edge of technology because the majority of hams cling to outmoded methods and fight tooth and nail to keep from moving on. Instead of teaching the younger generation to reach for the stars, ham radio has become a museum of how it used to be.

n1uq

02-22-2006, 05:46 PM

KG4RRH

02-22-2006, 05:57 PM

Quote[/b] (ab0wr @ Feb. 21 2006,19:30)][quote]

It isn't the Morse Code that is the filter for most, it is the *effort* that it takes. I would almost bet you that *every single NCT* that says they can't learn Morse Code has never conciously learned *any* second language. I would also almost bet you that they *have* learned some second language elements but won't even admit it to themselves.
Granted, words like "I would almost bet..." isn't one, the generalities used her do seem to flame many...

I've told this story here before (...sorry Fred, can't locate the post right now and the is coming via my cell phone ) but not everyone can learn code ... I'm an example and I know of several others. Anyway, years and years ago, the FAA required basic code for a pilots license. During practise sessions, I could send and copy at greater than 20wpm without any great difficulty. I could copy a 30 minute straight session that included a full regional weather report and traffic vectors along with variable spacing and intentional keying errors, without error ... perfect in fact and I'm still proud of that; it was very hard work for a 13 year old. My flight and CW instructor, my dad, was the hardest teacher I've ever had. At the time, I was in local HAM club and enjoyed the help I got from many, many elmers who were all very helpful and happy to explain anything I wanted to learn. Unfortunetly, I had something happen before I took the test for Novice or grew to the age where I could use the hundreds of logged flight hours to get a pilot's license..

I almost died from bacterial meningitis.

After months of recovery to regain things like speech and general language skills, I moved on with my life, picked up a couple of degrees, a wife, and had a couple of kids. I still have a speech problem that requires me to actively think about how I'm going to make most sounds, but most people never notice it, just the occational pause. I got back into SWL/HAM radio when my kids flew the nest after picking up a couple degrees for themselves, walked into a test session without reveiwing anything other than the band allocations, and aced the tech. test a several years back. My wife bought me a multi-band HT (VX5). I then started to "refresh" my code skills, fully beleiving I'd have my General taken care of at the next test session and my Extra shortly after that. The only problem is that at speeds above about 1wpm (which may be too fast depending on the character) I can no longer descriminate between a dit and a dah, not by ear, eye (unless written down...what speed is that?), or touch. Another strange after effect of being sick is that my ability to learn languages improved to the point where in 3 to 4 weeks of deep exposure, NOT formal instruction but straight exposure, best in a group of good speaking locals that don't mind me asking questions, and I can understand enough to be a productive participant in a conversation, order food, watch TV, .... A past job brought me to many, many places around the world and I've picked up 18 languages with little difficultly, including nihongo (Japanese). The only ones I had difficultly with were several Chinese dialics that make serious use of very minor inflections. In all cases, languages have come to me slowly at first but then it's like a flood after just a few weeks. Maybe the FCC should require local language proficiency before we're allowed to carry on a QSO with a non-native speaker....

If you think that's strange, I can also copy AFSK packet (yes, 1's and 0's) at 300 baud very well by ear and I think I could learn RTTY if I wanted; just not CW. I wrote a program to convert CW to tones and I can mostly (LOTS and LOTS of errors) read CW off the air but not good enough to pass a 5wpm test. I have come close with making them sweeps instead of two fixed but still not good enough..

After spending years now totalling hundreds of hours and having tried every training tool I could put my hands on without positive results, I've have, once again, come to the realization that the only way I'm going to ever become a general or above is if the FCC changes the rules; I'm not looking for anyone to give me anything. I had thought that all I needed to do was develop a new pathway in my brain but it just wasn't meant to be. I'll live with the sat's, packet, repeaters for now. Quite honestly, after listen to the HF bands for a while, I'm not so sure I want to go there anyway. Between contesters doing massive amounts of traffic using only the minimal exchange possible and groups of HAMs that seem to feel they "own" a particular freq., berating other Hams that try to join in, it sounds absolutely nothing like I remember it in years past where most everyone seemed to want to help..

'73 KG4RRH Mike http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

k3ng

02-22-2006, 05:59 PM

Quote[/b] (w0vu @ Feb. 22 2006,10:23)]I do believe there is a Troll on this forum.
If you're implying I'm a troll, you need to learn what one is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Also, learn what this is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

ky5u

02-22-2006, 06:00 PM

Quote[/b] (k3ng @ Feb. 22 2006,07:55)]Quote[/b] (wa4dou @ Feb. 22 2006,07:46)]According to the latest qso statistics on the 3Y0X website, there were 43,659 qso's comprised of ssb,rtty, & jt65 modes. There were also 43,255 qso's made using that antiquated and archaic mode - cw.
If the CW test was eliminated, would that make CW archaic? The answer is no.

The CW Test is what is archaic. Can anyone get passed the fact that CW Testing isn't linked to CW band allocations, CW relevancy, CW usage, CW popularity, CW ability, CW usefulness, an operator's value to the amateur service, general intelligence, human decency, and the Gross Domestic Product?
Oooooo. Let me answer this one, teacher!

Revoval of the test is the first step in eliminating CW. If you don't believe me, look at the ARRL Petition RM-11306 which reduces the CW spectrum on 40m to 35kHz. Look at the CTT petition RM-11305 that seeks to allow voice anywhere in the bands. Little NCG dweebles will fill the bands up and drown out CW.

The "we're not trying to kill CW" argument is horse hockey.

Quote[/b] ] ng: I assume you're responding to me. I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but this is yet another straw man argument. Who said any entry test of any kind is irrelevant?

Here you go....

Quote[/b] ] ADA: It doesn't take technical knowledge to turn on a cell phone. If you live in America, the electronic device either works or take it back. Who fixes these items?? Americans are more worried about asking someone else how it works.My community college dropped Electronics Technology two years ago. So do I say more?

Your position is naive to say the least. So no technical requirement, no code requirement. What is next?

Quote[/b] ] ng:So in lieu of harder written tests, you'd rather just keep an irrelevant test in place and watch our numbers continue to decline?

Who cares? Better to have a few qualified people than a bunch of whiney, low motivation, "gimme"s.

N2EY

02-22-2006, 06:14 PM

Quote[/b] (K3DAV @ Feb. 21 2006,22:04)]
Quote[/b] ]You don't have to be a general or an extra to listen to the HF band, and hear the trash that are there who already know CW.

Which HF band? There are 8 of them! (160 is MF, not HF, and '60 meters' is five channels, not a band in the amateur sense)

Quote[/b] ]My ears don't need the higher class license to listen to the cursing, belching, keying on top of others, sound effects, arguing........well, you get the picture. 80 meters has become known by most hams as the CB/Ham band.

I think you mean 75 meters (check Part 97 - FCC actually refers to 80 and 75 as different bands!)

Quote[/b] ] GEE! I wonder why? Some of those idiots have been there since the CW test was at 20wpm. They know better, but still choose to be idiots. The joke is, they are some of the ones complaining about letting the low class Tech's into their country club. Awwwwwwwwww.

But what mode are they using? It's not Morse Code!

Look at the FCC enforcement letters and see where 99% of the operating violations (operators doing bad things, not technical breakdowns) occur, and what modes are used. Then see how few violations are committed by hams using Morse Code.

Quote[/b] ]While the rest of the world is enjoying their no-code newbies on HF, and having a great time, only in America can this kind of worthless argument be carried on and on and on and on and on.

Have any countries that have dropped the code requirement experienced increased growth?

Does any country except Japan have as many hams as the USA?

What are the written exams like in other countries?

--

The odd part of all this is that it has taken FCC so long. Way back in 1999, FCC announced the changes which took effect in April 2000. FCC specifically addressed every reason for keeping code tests and said that every reason but one was insufficient.

FCC said that they could not completely eliminate code testing in 2000 because of the ITU-R treaty requirement. They said it was the *only* reason to keep any code testing at all, and so reduced all code testing to 5 wpm - the minimum they thought met the treaty requirement.

Well, that treaty requirement disappeared in July 2003. FCC could have just cited their 1999 Report and Order, then dumped 5 wpm. But they didn't.

We've had 18 proposals from various groups, comments and reply comments, and now an NPRM on the issue with its comments and reply comments. Etc. Yet the best info we have today, more than 2-1/2 years after the treaty changed, is: "Don't hold your breath waiting for the rules to change".

Think about that.

73 de Jim, N2EY

KI6ADA

02-22-2006, 06:16 PM

I am replying to all. I meant that the new generation of young people are only interested in instant gratification. My 14 year old son can careless about Ham radio, he has his own cell phone. When I was 14 I built my first Heathkit.
I have a great love for the hobby. I have allot of experience in electronic repair and building projects.
I am frustrated in seeing Americans relying on other 2nd and 3rd world countries to handle our electronic repairs and customer support.
I am wondering were America will be in 50 years? Shall we move to another country so we can win back our technology advantage?

Ham Radio is a hobby, but is also anambassador to modern technology.
My thoughts were meant to be delivered to those who have friends and family that can careless about how things work.

I am presently learning CW and will test on April 29th for my General upgrade.

Lets keep Ham Radio a hobby and invite our friends to enjoy and not runaway over thoughts expressed on this wwebsite!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

k3ng

02-22-2006, 06:20 PM

Quote[/b] (N2EY @ Feb. 22 2006,10:35)][73 de Jim, N2EY
CW may be the second most popular mode, but you don't need to operate it to be a ham. #PSK is probably the third most popular mode and arguably it has many of the same positive attritubes that CW does. #Do we test for PSK proficiency? #Do we test for voice proficiency for that matter?

On qualifications, how is someone who knows CW more qualified? #In your A/B example, how does A make sense if it has little to do with B? #Why not test for B?

You bring up some good points on the decline of ham radio. ##1 is spot on. ##2 I don't agree with, I think the image is a product of what you see displayed on this forum. # On #3, there's equipment on eBay and it's easier than ever to get secondhand equipment. #Also note that there's more QRP kits than ever. #Equipment entry barriers are lower than ever, in my opinion. ##4, yes, in some instances. #2m shouldn't be a problem, though. ##5: I don't think testing changes are the silver bullet, but it needs to be a part of an overall plan. #It's tough to get anyone interested when you're fighting with 1-4 and then plop the code test on top of it all.

In the 80s, growth was good, but this isn't the 80s. #The old rules just don't apply. #That happened in about 1995 when the Internet went mainstream.

I think the challenge is there for whoever wants it, our problem is we just can't get folks in the door. #We have bad/nonexistent PR, lousy clubs with bad members, and a test that is viewed as non-relevant in today's society.

In the absence of another concrete statistic, we have to look at our licensee numbers. #They are declining. #We have to shed the image of being outdated. #Removing the code test is one step in that process. #If we improve the image, we get more folks interested and they become licensed. #If they are exposed to the right people in a club, their interest will blossom and they will undoubtedly become interested in CW, I've seen it happen several times in our club.

Thanks for your refreshing response.

73

ky5u

02-22-2006, 06:21 PM

Quote[/b] (n0doz @ Feb. 22 2006,10:35)]Ham radio is no longer on the cutting edge of technology because the majority of hams cling to outmoded methods and fight tooth and nail to keep from moving on. Instead of teaching the younger generation to reach for the stars, ham radio has become a museum of how it used to be.
And removal of CW testing will fix this? ROFL!! There is already a no code license class where you have the bandwidth to implement cutting edge technology. The younger generation wants music downloads, video, and file downloads all of which need bandwidth to implement. How much bandwidth do you need to do a decent music download? Your argument, so how much? MINIMUM 150kHz! That would give you about 128k data speed MAX! Kids would roll their eyes at even this speed.

Removal of the CW test only gives applicants access to HF where the WHOLE of most bands is 350kHz. So you'd want to give up the entire 20m band to two pimply faced kids downloading gangsta-rap music?

THINK about your arguments people.

k3ng

02-22-2006, 06:29 PM

AG4YO, answer me this: are any of the spectrum petitions dependent on code testing changes? #You're proping up your argument for CW testing with unrelated actions that haven't even occured.

If your metric for the health of ham radio isn't licensee numbers, what is it? #I'd rather have good people as well, though eliminating the code test won't necessarily bring in bad operators like some claim. #With our numbers declining, our already weak standing with the FCC will be eroded further. #When do you take action?

n3jbh

02-22-2006, 06:54 PM

I Love a good laugh. Fred your great keep posting this stuff.

n0doz

02-22-2006, 07:03 PM

>>Quote (n0doz @ Feb. 22 2006,10:35)
Ham radio is no longer on the cutting edge of technology because the majority of hams cling to outmoded methods and fight tooth and nail to keep from moving on. Instead of teaching the younger generation to reach for the stars, ham radio has become a museum of how it used to be.<<

>And removal of CW testing will fix this?<
Didn't say it would.

>There is already a no code license class where you have the bandwidth to implement cutting edge technology.<
Yup, and it's mostly used like CB. Not much consistent activity in advanced modes.

>The younger generation wants music downloads, video, and file downloads all of which need bandwidth to implement. How much bandwidth do you need to do a decent music download? Your argument, so how much? MINIMUM 150kHz! That would give you about 128k data speed MAX! Kids would roll their eyes at even this speed.<
Sure they would. I would, too. But music and video are computer and internet-based pursuits, not radio. My point was that we hams allowed things like IM and cellphones to take root without our participation because we were wedded to the old ways of doing things. It's as though a point was reached in technology, and the majority said, "Enough!"

>Removal of the CW test only gives applicants access to HF where the WHOLE of most bands is 350kHz. So you'd want to give up the entire 20m band to two pimply faced kids downloading gangsta-rap music?<
Again, not a valid argument. "Music downloads" have nothing to do with "amateur communications."

I've tried to read your posts with an open mind, YO. But you go out of your way to insult anyone that doesn't agree with you. Must be a liberal.

>THINK about your arguments people.<
And so should you.

n3jbh

02-22-2006, 07:06 PM

kc2idm emailed me this.

"if thats the outlook you feel u should have it sucks!!!!'
no one held my hand in to this hobby i picked up book after book and
studdied weather it was the theary part or the code.i provailed and will
not stop advacing till the end.
p.s. people add ther thaughts about the given subject and thats what
most do. U on other hand feel that you have direct decetfull comments to
people maby try kite flying or quilting."

Well I see by the way you type your reply’s to me. That you may have needed some one to hold your hand a littlie bit more often. And please explain to me the dynamics of flying a kite? Or hey quilting. You’re correct that is a lost art. You should attempt it some day.

But please understand I am not making a personal attack here upon you.
You’re above statement done that very well on its own. So I say unto you please continue with this topic and demonstrate your superior knowledge and skill’s.

n3jbh

02-22-2006, 07:11 PM

I need to stop this is getting to hilarious

K3DAV

02-22-2006, 07:12 PM

Quote[/b] (ab0wr @ Feb. 22 2006,07:43)]Surprise me. Come up with an excuse we all haven't heard a thousand times.

tim ab0wr
That Tim, would not be possible. If 100 people gave you the absolute best reasons in the world, that made absolute perfect sense, you would still argue and say it is just another excuse.

This is the whole point of this thread and the dozens that have come before it on the same subject. You can't change. It is impossible for you to see anything from anyone elses point of view. You have already come up with the idea that all of the testing will someday go away, and the ham bands will become like CB. And you blame it all on people who choose not to like 1 specific mode of transmission.

It is so clear in your words that we should keep the CW requirement because you had to do it, and you want it that way. What others think or feel have no validity in your mind.

After over one full year of no-code hams on HF in the rest of the world have proven that everything you fear is just nonsense and just will not happen, you still preach the same old tune over and over. Your stuck in a rut and can't climb out. Dropping the CW requirement will happen like it or not. And no-code tech's will take and pass their element 3 exam and get on the HF bands. They will be good hams and have the same fun with it as you have had. If they had to learn CW, it would not make them any better an operator than you or anyone else.

The time of bickering over this pointles argument is long passed. Now is the time to welcome and help the new guys do the right thing when their time comes. You do that by leading by example. Not by prejudice.

How about if YOU come up with an excuse that we haven't heard a thousand times. Especially one that hasn't been already proven wrong by facts, a thousand times. I just find it sad that we must look at ham operators in other countries as a leading example of how to treat new hams on the HF bands.

ky5u

02-22-2006, 07:15 PM

Quote[/b] (k3ng @ Feb. 22 2006,11:29)]AG4YO, answer me this: are any of the spectrum petitions dependent on code testing changes? You're proping up your argument for CW testing with unrelated actions that haven't even occured.

If your metric for the health of ham radio isn't licensee numbers, what is it? I'd rather have good people as well, though eliminating the code test won't necessarily bring in bad operators like some claim. With our numbers declining, our already weak standing with the FCC will be eroded further. When do you take action?
Yes, they all are indirectly. Get rid of the code test so all the RVers and Sail Boaters can get ham rigs for free email instead of paying for the service.

Oh, excuse me. Everything needs a "metric" now. You make the assumption that the only way to gave good "metrics" is to remove telegraphy testing. The "decline" could be reversed by doing five things:

1. Giving techs something structured to do like organized ragchews on local repeaters.
2. Development of UHF and above into a data centric service.
3. Making sure everyone who passes the test gets on the air.
4. Contesting related to Echolink (where at least one path in the QSO must be on a radio link).
5. Enforcement. Get the FCC off its lazy butt and start enforcing the rules. They could clean up 75m on a weekend if they wanted to.

Then your "metric" will look good and my requirement for trained Ops would improve. Notice the lack of need for removing telegraphy testing.

AE4ZV

02-22-2006, 07:21 PM

Here's a plan:

Eliminate ALL tests and requirements for amateur radio licenses. Hand them out to anyone who wants one. Soon, it will be as much a pleasure to operate on the ham bands as it is to drive.

73'

# # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

ky5u

02-22-2006, 07:24 PM

Quote[/b] (n0doz @ Feb. 22 2006,12:03)]>>Quote (n0doz @ Feb. 22 2006,10:35)
Ham radio is no longer on the cutting edge of technology because the majority of hams cling to outmoded methods and fight tooth and nail to keep from moving on. Instead of teaching the younger generation to reach for the stars, ham radio has become a museum of how it used to be.<<

>And removal of CW testing will fix this?<
Didn't say it would.

>There is already a no code license class where you have the bandwidth to implement cutting edge technology.<
Yup, and it's mostly used like CB. Not much consistent activity in advanced modes.

>The younger generation wants music downloads, video, and file downloads all of which need bandwidth to implement. How much bandwidth do you need to do a decent music download? Your argument, so how much? MINIMUM 150kHz! That would give you about 128k data speed MAX! Kids would roll their eyes at even this speed.<
Sure they would. I would, too. But music and video are computer and internet-based pursuits, not radio. My point was that we hams allowed things like IM and cellphones to take root without our participation because we were wedded to the old ways of doing things. It's as though a point was reached in technology, and the majority said, "Enough!"

>Removal of the CW test only gives applicants access to HF where the WHOLE of most bands is 350kHz. So you'd want to give up the entire 20m band to two pimply faced kids downloading gangsta-rap music?<
Again, not a valid argument. "Music downloads" have nothing to do with "amateur communications."

I've tried to read your posts with an open mind, YO. But you go out of your way to insult anyone that doesn't agree with you. Must be a liberal.

>THINK about your arguments people.<
And so should you.
I see. You were just using the buzzword "cutting edge" without anything really in mind, and it has nothing to do with the topic here. My bad!

K9DTC

02-22-2006, 07:24 PM

I agree what is all the emphasis on CW? How many people know packet, slow scan TV, Amtor, Fax? Why not make all these thing a requirement?

When cars were first made there was only standard transmissions. So that is what you had to learn! How many people today learn standard transmissions first?

I know more about the hobby and apply what I know more than I thought I ever would by being in the hobby! The hands on gave me more incentive to explore these other facets!

This hobby is at all time low!! Let people in and let them "catch the Fever" of ham radio. Just like some people further their driving pleasure by learning stick shift so will other hams want to venture into the wonders of CW!

We have to adjust for the times or this hobby will die with the current generation!
Dan K9DTC

K3DAV

02-22-2006, 07:30 PM

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Feb. 22 2006,09:21)]Quote[/b] ]DAV: No I wouldn't have. #I have constant ringing in my ears that pulsate with my heartbeat. #When you send dots and dashes, all I hear is a bunch of dots that sometimes blend together.

DAV: Just don't skip the crack in that record to much longer. #You might break the needle.

I bet your crack runs a few miles on that "skip". But of course the entire rules have to change because of your condition, right? #Not just a medical waiver, right? # And I guess the soothing SSB static will make your ears feel better? # I've seen VEs give the code test with a flashlight for nearly deaf people who found a way to do it. #People have gone ALOT farther with bigger problems. #Does the world owe you something?
Oooooo Great comeback. What are your next words of wisdom? My Dad can beat up your Dad? I know you are, but what am I? Sticks and stones can break my bones, but names will never hurt me? Well you are too?

I guess you have shown us poor little Tech's how a person who knows CW is so much a better ham than us.

Come on I can't wait for your next reply of wisdom and well thought out charming tidbits.

FYI: Our local VE's have said that they don't do Flashlights. If you can't hear the tones, then you are screwed. And SSB static is soothing. People with my hearing problem would understand that. But I don't expect you to even try.

n0doz

02-22-2006, 07:43 PM

>I see. You were just using the buzzword "cutting edge" without anything really in mind, and it has nothing to do with the topic here. My bad!<
My bad for assuming you would know I was referring to RADIO technology, rather than technology as a whole. Kind of makes me wonder: are you being argumentative simply for the sake of needing to argue? Hmmm......

>>THINK about your arguments people.<<
And so should you. Still.

K1MVP

02-22-2006, 07:46 PM

Quote[/b] (KI6ADA @ Feb. 22 2006,00:49)][quote=ka3fad,Feb. 19 2006,20:19]I was just #read the editorial for March QST.

What's a tube? isn't that the TV? What's a telegraph key? isn't that a fancy hotel room key? What's a packet? Did you mean pocket? What's PSK 31? Is that a new video game? OK the list can go on and on and on....!

Save Ham Radio #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Yep,--read the propaganda in QST,"it seems to us" and
if you believe it, it is no wonder you are confused.IMO

AS far as "whats a TV"?--well at the rate the dumbed-
down tests are going,--the questions will soon be,
hams use the following,
a. a radio to talk
b. a video game
c #a computer
d. all of the above.

And of course hams DO use all of the above at one time
or another,--so ALL of the answers ARE correct, SO you
cannot get any wrong,--SO YOU PASS, and the FCC
WILL issue you a ham ticket, and YOU ARE a "qualified"
ham radio operator,--EXTRA class on top of that.
CW--http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif whats that? no need for that "old stuff"

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #73, K1MVP

P.S,--AND the ARRL will issue you a "diploma" for
# # # passing when you join them, and get your QST.
# # # Wow what a "bargain".

n0doz

02-22-2006, 07:51 PM

I actually agree that the various tests should be left alone. What I object to is the disgusting behavior of the few that seem to think that:
1. They are somehow "better" than others because they passed a test
2. Their "superior knowledge" makes them a superior person
3. Grade-school name calling makes them right.

K3DAV

02-22-2006, 07:53 PM

Quote[/b] (N2EY @ Feb. 22 2006,13:14)]
Quote[/b] ]You don't have to be a general or an extra to listen to the HF band, and hear the trash that are there who already know CW. #

Which HF band? There are 8 of them! (160 is MF, not HF, and '60 meters' is five channels, not a band in the amateur sense)

Quote[/b] ]My ears don't need the higher class license to listen to the cursing, belching, keying on top of others, sound effects, arguing........well, you get the picture. 80 meters has become known by most hams as the CB/Ham band.

I think you mean 75 meters (check Part 97 - FCC actually refers to 80 and 75 as different bands!)

Quote[/b] ] GEE! I wonder why? #Some of those idiots have been there since the CW test was at 20wpm. #They know better, but still choose to be idiots. #The joke is, they are some of the ones complaining about letting the low class Tech's into their country club. Awwwwwwwwww.

But what mode are they using? It's not Morse Code!

Look at the FCC enforcement letters and see where 99% of the operating violations (operators doing bad things, not technical breakdowns) occur, and what modes are used. Then see how few violations are committed by hams using Morse Code.

Quote[/b] ]While the rest of the world is enjoying their no-code newbies on HF, and having a great time, only in America can this kind of worthless argument be carried on and on and on and on and on.

Have any countries that have dropped the code requirement experienced increased growth?

Does any country except Japan have as many hams as the USA?

What are the written exams like in other countries?

73 de Jim, N2EY
Jim you are joking with me right? I mean that each one of your replies are just nit-picking by you, and have nothing to do with context.

I know the difference between 75, and 80 meters, and both are plagued with the same nonsense. But I am betting that everyone else, (Including you) knew exactly what I meant.

Just because I forgot to put the letter (S) after the word "Band", you make an arguing point about it? You must be bored.

Did you actually ask "What mode they were using"? Who cares? The point is that they are acting like idiots and the had to learn CW. So CW wasn't any kind of filter.

Another shinning example of how CW makes you brilliant.

ky5u

02-22-2006, 07:57 PM

Quote[/b] (K3DAV @ Feb. 22 2006,12:30)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Feb. 22 2006,09:21)]Quote[/b] ]DAV: No I wouldn't have. I have constant ringing in my ears that pulsate with my heartbeat. When you send dots and dashes, all I hear is a bunch of dots that sometimes blend together.

DAV: Just don't skip the crack in that record to much longer. You might break the needle.

I bet your crack runs a few miles on that "skip". But of course the entire rules have to change because of your condition, right? Not just a medical waiver, right? And I guess the soothing SSB static will make your ears feel better? I've seen VEs give the code test with a flashlight for nearly deaf people who found a way to do it. People have gone ALOT farther with bigger problems. Does the world owe you something?
Oooooo Great comeback. What are your next words of wisdom? My Dad can beat up your Dad? I know you are, but what am I? Sticks and stones can break my bones, but names will never hurt me? Well you are too?

I guess you have shown us poor little Tech's how a person who knows CW is so much a better ham than us.

Come on I can't wait for your next reply of wisdom and well thought out charming tidbits.

FYI: Our local VE's have said that they don't do Flashlights. If you can't hear the tones, then you are screwed. And SSB static is soothing. People with my hearing problem would understand that. But I don't expect you to even try.
Look, some of us mistakenly believe that if you simply give people a little shove in the right direction, personal pride takes over and they usually get over their particular pity-party. You are obviously so entrenched in your excuse that you have given up. My apologies for pointing this out to you. Just do me a favor and don't try to change my hobby because of it. Thank you!

Any assumption you make about how I feel about you as a qualified operator other than this is your own. I'd be glad to QSO with you any time.

P.S. I am almost deaf in one ear and have HF ringing in the other. My primary mode is CW.

K3DAV

02-22-2006, 08:00 PM

Quote[/b] (K1MVP @ Feb. 22 2006,14:46)]Quote[/b] (KI6ADA @ Feb. 22 2006,00:49)][quote=ka3fad,Feb. 19 2006,20:19]I was just #read the editorial for March QST.

What's a tube? isn't that the TV? What's a telegraph key? isn't that a fancy hotel room key? What's a packet? Did you mean pocket? What's PSK 31? Is that a new video game? OK the list can go on and on and on....!

Save Ham Radio #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Yep,--read the propaganda in QST,"it seems to us" and
if you believe it, it is no wonder you are confused.IMO

AS far as "whats a TV"?--well at the rate the dumbed-
down tests are going,--the questions will soon be,
hams use the following,
a. a radio to talk
b. a video game
c #a computer
d. all of the above.

And of course hams DO use all of the above at one time
or another,--so ALL of the answers ARE correct, SO you
cannot get any wrong,--SO YOU PASS, and the FCC
WILL issue you a ham ticket, and YOU ARE a "qualified"
ham radio operator,--EXTRA class on top of that.
CW--http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif whats that? no need for that "old stuff"

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #73, K1MVP

P.S,--AND the ARRL will issue you a "diploma" for
# # # passing when you join them, and get your QST.
# # # Wow what a "bargain".
And if you click your red heels together 3 times, you might wake up and be back home in the real world.

And yet even another shinning example of a person knowledgable of CW. The list is growing with every new post.

KI6ADA

02-22-2006, 08:02 PM

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

ky5u

02-22-2006, 08:09 PM

Quote[/b] (n0doz @ Feb. 22 2006,12:51)]I actually agree that the various tests should be left alone. What I object to is the disgusting behavior of the few that seem to think that:
1. They are somehow "better" than others because they passed a test
2. Their "superior knowledge" makes them a superior person
3. Grade-school name calling makes them right.
1. More qualified, never "better".
2. Absolutely agree.
3. This one is silly.

But it all sounds "cutting edge" to me. Young people are lining up to get in.

KD6NIG

02-22-2006, 08:09 PM

Upgrade or no, whatever it is, Ham Radio has simply degraded into a class system. You can see much of it throughout the prior pages.

You have 3 licence classes currently. But those are subdivided also by code speed. With all of this, you kinda get this 'pecking order' thing going on.

So where I sit right now, even after 13+ years licenced, is the No-Code Tech, which, according to many, is the bottom of the ladder.

I could move up a few rungs by learning code, in which case I could become a slow code general, or a slow code extra, which, from what I'm seeing around here, are the next two rungs of the ladder.

But there are plenty of rungs above that still. Plenty of people still above me to spit on me, tell me I'm not a REAL ham because I don't have code, or because I'm only 5wpm. So why haven't I upgraded? Real life, its a hobby, and frankly, I don't need to upgrade. I'm happy where I am. HF is cool, yes, but it not like I can afford the radio even if they handed me the licence tommorrow. Why study for something when right now I can't even use the privledges without some major overtime?

Oh, and then theres the other part. The elitists on here. I prefer being on the bottom of the ladder. At least down here the stuff being flung at me is the same. I'm A LAZY NO CODE TECH. Thats right, I am, according to you. If I upgrade with 5wpm, then I'm a SLOW CODE GENERAL, according to all of you. So why bother? Personally, I think you all LIKE the fact you can pick on the people on the bottom of the ladder.

I hope you all are proud of yourselves though. Those select few who have to stand there and puff out thier chests "well I had to test in front of an examiner". Well, I would have too, but sorry, I wasn't born till 1974. Its not MY fault that the FCC decided to change thier ways, is it? YES, according to some of you.

So, enjoy bashing me. I'm staying right where I am. Whe the code goes away, then I'll restudy my financial situation and decide if I want to get onto HF.

Right now, its nice to listen to, but frankly, if I'm going to encounter even 1% of the elitism I'm seeing on here on HF, then I don't want to be there. I get enough of it where I'm at now anyway, I don't need any more of it.

Its nice to see some of the snakes out in the grass finally rising up and showing thier true colors though, isn't it? I know what ALL of you fear by the way, you fear us getting into your exclusive club without paying the price. Its like joining a private golf club, but only paying a grand to get in, but you paid 10 grand.. The most hilarious thing I find however is that you spit on all of us, then you expect us to RESPECT you. For what? Making my hair wet?

I know that not every licencee above me is like this. But for the select few that are, I think you honestly really need to act your age. You treat some people like they are simply dirt, and its NOT THIER FAULT that the FCC changed the rules, ok? As for testing, the last time I checked, the VEC was in charge of that. So why aren't all of you beating down THIER door for lowering the standards? Its not the fault of the new, old, or whatever NCT that the tests got easier, now is it?

But I really know what you all fear-one licence class. One test, and we get it all. You're no longer unique. You can no longer puff out your chest and say "I'm a MIGHTY EXTRA!" Once the code goes away, you can say you're a 20WPM extra, and everyone except for your buddies is going to look at you and say..... "So?" Thats what you really fear-not being able to brag anymore.

I thought ham radio was about comraderie. Helping your fellow ham. Thank god that for the most part, most hams still are. But, for those who don't think that way, do us all a favor and don't go posturing around bragging that you are ham operators. Frankly, you're making all of us look bad, and you're not encouraging new people into our hobby. And thats another thing, this is a hobby, not a contest to see who is the best. If you want to have a urination contest, keep that in the bathroom where it belongs, please. You're scaring the children, which, by the way, are our only hope to keep our hobby alive. If the numbers keep falling like they are now, we'll be lucky to have a hobby by the time I can even think of saying "well, back in MY DAY...."

But feel free to berate me by email, PM, or whatever. You've all done it before. If you don't like me because of my licence class, you are more than free to ignore me. Try to ridicule me on the air, and all you'll hear is my callsign and clear.

I hope you're all proud of yourselves. Keep carrying on. Keep thinking you're the best and I'm just a peon. But in the end, maybe you'll finally realise, I jumped through the hoops provided to me, and I'm as much of a Ham Radio Operator as you. Sans code. Like it or not...I'm here....and I'm not going away.

K3DAV

02-22-2006, 08:13 PM

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Feb. 22 2006,14:57)]Just do me a favor and don't try to change my hobby because of it. Thank you!
THAT is the very point of your arguments. Out of all of the words you just typed, only 2 of them made your opinions valid to you. You say "MY hobby" as if it belongs to only you, and only you should have a say in the rules.

It's time that you learn a new concept. Ham radio is NOT YOUR HOBBY". It is OUR hobby, and when more than one person participates in anything, you must share equally and compromise from time to time. And that is something that far too many of you have no concept of when it comes to "OUR" hobby. You just go on thinking of it as yours to do with as you please. Sort of like a dictator in a small country. "It's all mine, and the rest of you will do as I say."

ky5u

02-22-2006, 08:21 PM

Quote[/b] ]NIG: But I really know what you all fear-one licence class. One test, and we get it all. You're no longer unique. You can no longer puff out your chest and say "I'm a MIGHTY EXTRA!" Once the code goes away, you can say you're a 20WPM extra, and everyone except for your buddies is going to look at you and say..... "So?" Thats what you really fear-not being able to brag anymore.

Call: KD6NIG Class: Technician

Man, you got us pegged! I won't be able to be proud of the effort I made to improve myself and you'll be eternally proud that you got in by changing the rules. Let me clue you in. You'll go from a NCT to being a NCG. If you think most General Class ops won't resent that then you're really missing the boat. Like most, they will gladly talk to you on the air. I would too. But you won't get the respect you're looking for this way.

ky5u

02-22-2006, 08:51 PM

I have a hearing disability and can't learn the code!!

KD6NIG

02-22-2006, 08:52 PM

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Feb. 22 2006,13:21)]Quote[/b] ]NIG: But I really know what you all fear-one licence class. #One test, and we get it all. #You're no longer unique. #You can no longer puff out your chest and say "I'm a MIGHTY EXTRA!" #Once the code goes away, you can say you're a 20WPM extra, and everyone except for your buddies is going to look at you and say..... "So?" #Thats what you really fear-not being able to brag anymore.

Call: KD6NIG Class: Technician

Man, you got us pegged! #I won't be able to be proud of the effort I made to improve myself and you'll be eternally proud that you got in by cheating the rules. #Let me clue you in. #You'll go from a NCT to being a NCG. If you think most General Class ops won't resent that then you're really missing the boat. #Like most, they will gladly talk to you on the air. I would too. #But you won't get the respect you're looking for this way.
Where exactly in my post did I demand respect? I don't think I did at all.

All I asked for is all of those people on the ladder on top of me to stop spitting on me because of who I am.

I'm just being asked to be recognised for what I am, a fellow ham radio operator. Not a lazy no-code tech. I'm not lazy, I choose at this time not to upgrade. Isn't that my choice?

I don't like the fact that some people around here feel that I'm not a real ham unless I take my tests in front of a FCC examiner, know 20WPM, etc.

Thats all I'm trying to get rid of here. And people using that the tests were harder, the code was faster, so I'm better doesn't fly with me. The FCC and the VEC have changed the tests and the rules. Don't put ME down because I met the requirements they set 13 years ago. Thats all I'm saying. Direct your venom and fire to the people who make the rules, not those who follow them. Its not my fault that I can't test for code at 20WPM now if I wanted to, is it? And it won't be my fault later either. Blaming me for following the rules in place is wrong. I didn't make them, I just looked at the hobby, looked at the requirements, and went for it.

I would just really like to know how things beyond my control are my fault, and make me a "non REAL HAM OPERATOR" as some people put it, is all.....

Now, if you want to call me lazy AFTER I upgrade without code, then thats justified. But just because I'm a NCT doesn't mean that I'm going to take that route. If I do, flame away. But until I do, calling me lazy is wrong, I think. Perhaps I'm just content with what I have now....don't I have that right?

And you didn't need to post that I was a technician. I thought I said that clearly, and my signature also plainly states that. I'm proud of what I am. I'm not proud of the stereotype people push around because of the level I'm currently at, though.

ky5u

02-22-2006, 09:07 PM

Quote[/b] (KD6NIG @ Feb. 22 2006,13:52)]Where exactly in my post did I demand respect? I don't think I did at all.

All I asked for is all of those people on the ladder on top of me to stop spitting on me because of who I am.

I'm just being asked to be recognised for what I am, a fellow ham radio operator. Not a lazy no-code tech. I'm not lazy, I choose at this time not to upgrade. Isn't that my choice?

I don't like the fact that some people around here feel that I'm not a real ham unless I take my tests in front of a FCC examiner, know 20WPM, etc.

Thats all I'm trying to get rid of here. And people using that the tests were harder, the code was faster, so I'm better doesn't fly with me. The FCC and the VEC have changed the tests and the rules. Don't put ME down because I met the requirements they set 13 years ago. Thats all I'm saying. Direct your venom and fire to the people who make the rules, not those who follow them. Its not my fault that I can't test for code at 20WPM now if I wanted to, is it? And it won't be my fault later either. Blaming me for following the rules in place is wrong. I didn't make them, I just looked at the hobby, looked at the requirements, and went for it.

I would just really like to know how things beyond my control are my fault, and make me a "non REAL HAM OPERATOR" as some people put it, is all.....

Now, if you want to call me lazy AFTER I upgrade without code, then thats justified. But just because I'm a NCT doesn't mean that I'm going to take that route. If I do, flame away. But until I do, calling me lazy is wrong, I think. Perhaps I'm just content with what I have now....don't I have that right?

And you didn't need to post that I was a technician. I thought I said that clearly, and my signature also plainly states that. I'm proud of what I am. I'm not proud of the stereotype people push around because of the level I'm currently at, though.
Where in your post did you demand respect? The whole thing. This whole post too. Your jealousy of some of those people is obvious. If you're secure in what you do, then who cares what other people think?

Personally I recognize you as a fellow amateur. I just hate to see you consumed with that attitude.

KG4NEL

02-22-2006, 09:12 PM

Quote[/b] (KD6NIG @ Feb. 22 2006,13:52)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Feb. 22 2006,13:21)]Quote[/b] ]NIG: But I really know what you all fear-one licence class. One test, and we get it all. You're no longer unique. You can no longer puff out your chest and say "I'm a MIGHTY EXTRA!" Once the code goes away, you can say you're a 20WPM extra, and everyone except for your buddies is going to look at you and say..... "So?" Thats what you really fear-not being able to brag anymore.

Call: KD6NIG Class: Technician

Man, you got us pegged! I won't be able to be proud of the effort I made to improve myself and you'll be eternally proud that you got in by cheating the rules. Let me clue you in. You'll go from a NCT to being a NCG. If you think most General Class ops won't resent that then you're really missing the boat. Like most, they will gladly talk to you on the air. I would too. But you won't get the respect you're looking for this way.

Where exactly in my post did I demand respect? I don't think I did at all.

All I asked for is all of those people on the ladder on top of me to stop spitting on me because of who I am.

I'm just being asked to be recognised for what I am, a fellow ham radio operator. Not a lazy no-code tech. I'm not lazy, I choose at this time not to upgrade. Isn't that my choice?

I don't like the fact that some people around here feel that I'm not a real ham unless I take my tests in front of a FCC examiner, know 20WPM, etc.

Thats all I'm trying to get rid of here. And people using that the tests were harder, the code was faster, so I'm better doesn't fly with me. The FCC and the VEC have changed the tests and the rules. Don't put ME down because I met the requirements they set 13 years ago. Thats all I'm saying. Direct your venom and fire to the people who make the rules, not those who follow them. Its not my fault that I can't test for code at 20WPM now if I wanted to, is it? And it won't be my fault later either. Blaming me for following the rules in place is wrong. I didn't make them, I just looked at the hobby, looked at the requirements, and went for it.

I would just really like to know how things beyond my control are my fault, and make me a "non REAL HAM OPERATOR" as some people put it, is all.....

Now, if you want to call me lazy AFTER I upgrade without code, then thats justified. But just because I'm a NCT doesn't mean that I'm going to take that route. If I do, flame away. But until I do, calling me lazy is wrong, I think. Perhaps I'm just content with what I have now....don't I have that right?

And you didn't need to post that I was a technician. I thought I said that clearly, and my signature also plainly states that. I'm proud of what I am. I'm not proud of the stereotype people push around because of the level I'm currently at, though.
You make too much sense for a thread of this nature, please leave http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

If anyone wants to belittle me on the air, it's their choice to make themselves sound like a pompous, arrogant ass for anyone that happens to be listening in. If they want to do it in person, that's fine as well. I won't be losing any sleep over the fact that I don't get "respect" from a group of individuals that I don't respect anyway...it's a two-way street.

Some of the best, most entertaining folks I've met in this hobby have been older gentlemen that really overcame a lot of obstacles - it's a damn shame that some of them can't live up to the humble example set by their peers. Unfortunately, they won't see it until they realize that they've utterly failed as a group to attract someone raised on the AIM and Ipod culture...now, I'm not saying other factors aren't involved, but it certainly doesn't help.

n0doz

02-22-2006, 09:17 PM

You win, YO... you don't hear anyone but yourself, so you'e got to be right.
I still don't care either way. I acknowledge that I haven't gone so deep in this hobby like a lot of you that nothing else matters. Thanks for the "education."
I do enjoy reading the "meltdown" every time this subject comes up, though. Very entertaining!!

ab0wr

02-22-2006, 09:18 PM

Quote[/b] (KG4RRH @ Feb. 22 2006,10:57)][QUOTE=Quote ]

It isn't the Morse Code that is the filter for most, it is the *effort* that it takes. I would almost bet you that *every single NCT* that says they can't learn Morse Code has never conciously learned *any* second language. I would also almost bet you that they *have* learned some second language elements but won't even admit it to themselves.
Granted, words like "I would almost bet..." isn't one, the generalities used her do seem to flame many...

I've told this story here before (...sorry Fred, can't locate the post right now and the is coming via my cell phone ) but not everyone can learn code ... I'm an example and I know of several others. #Anyway, years and years ago, the FAA required basic code for a pilots license. #During practise sessions, I could send and copy at greater than 20wpm without any great difficulty. #I could copy a 30 minute straight session that included a full regional weather report and traffic vectors along with variable spacing and intentional keying errors, without error ... # perfect in fact and I'm still proud of that; it was very hard work for a 13 year old. #My flight and CW instructor, my dad, was the hardest teacher I've ever had. #At the time, I was in local HAM club and enjoyed the help I got from many, many elmers who were all very helpful and happy to explain anything I wanted to learn. Unfortunetly, I had something happen before I took the test for Novice or grew to the age where I could use the hundreds of logged flight hours to get a pilot's license..

I almost died from bacterial meningitis.

After months of recovery to regain things like speech and general language skills, I moved on with my life, picked up a couple of degrees, a wife, and had a couple of kids. #I still have a speech problem that requires me to actively think about how I'm going to make most sounds, but most people never notice it, just the occational pause. #I got back into SWL/HAM radio when my kids flew the nest after picking up a couple degrees for themselves, walked into a test session without reveiwing anything other than the band allocations, and aced the tech. test a several years back. #My wife bought me a multi-band HT (VX5). #I then started to "refresh" my code skills, fully beleiving I'd have my General taken care of at the next test session and my Extra shortly after that. #The only problem is that at speeds above about 1wpm (which may be too fast depending on the character) I can no longer descriminate between a dit and a dah, not by ear, eye (unless written down...what speed is that?), or touch. #Another strange after effect of being sick is that my ability to learn languages improved to the point where in 3 to 4 weeks of deep exposure, NOT formal instruction but straight exposure, best in a group of good speaking locals that don't mind me asking questions, and I can understand enough to be a productive participant in a conversation, order food, watch TV, .... #A past job brought me to many, many places around the world and I've picked up 18 languages with little difficultly, including nihongo (Japanese). #The only ones I had difficultly with were several Chinese dialics that make serious use of very minor inflections. #In all cases, languages have come to me slowly at first but then it's like a flood after just a few weeks. #Maybe the FCC should require local language proficiency before we're allowed to carry on a QSO with a non-native speaker....

If you think that's strange, I can also copy AFSK packet (yes, 1's and 0's) at 300 baud very well by ear and I think I could learn RTTY if I wanted; just not CW. #I wrote a program to convert CW to tones and I can mostly (LOTS and LOTS of errors) read CW off the air but not good enough to pass a 5wpm test. #I have come close with making them sweeps instead of two fixed but still not good enough.. #

After spending years now totalling hundreds of hours and having tried every training tool I could put my hands on without positive results, I've have, once again, come to the realization that the only way I'm going to ever become a general or above is if the FCC changes the rules; I'm not looking for anyone to give me anything. #I had thought that all I needed to do was develop a new pathway in my brain but it just wasn't meant to be. #I'll live with the sat's, packet, repeaters for now. #Quite honestly, after listen to the HF bands for a while, I'm not so sure I want to go there anyway. #Between contesters doing massive amounts of traffic using only the minimal exchange possible and groups of HAMs that seem to feel they "own" a particular freq., berating other Hams that try to join in, it sounds absolutely nothing like I remember it in years past where most everyone seemed to want to help..

'73 KG4RRH Mike # # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Frankly, it sounds to me like you have tried to learn Morse Code the wrong way.

It needs to be learned as a spoken language, not as a counting sequence.

It is rather hard for me to believe that you can learn Japanese as a spoken language but can't learn Morse Code as a spoken language. There is *very* little difference.

Have you tried using a set of headphones with one earpiece carrying the dits and the other one the dahs? I know of a fellow who learned this way #- it just made it easier for him. Once he learned it as a spoken language in this manner, he had no further problem with it.

And folks, I *HAVE* seen people write down the dots and dashes on their test paper and then go back and decode it later. There isn't any rule against that.

If you will take the time to actually *read* the VEC manual and the techniques available for making accomodations, you will find that it is even acceptable to pause between characters to allow the character to be put on paper. All it takes is a doctor's note to the VE that the condition exists.

In fact, if a doctor will confirm that your hearing prevents taking the test, a *sending* test can be substituted. Do you have the ability to operate a hand key and send dits and dahs? If not, a special key can be substituted (e.g. a two paddle keyer) where you could send dits with one hand and dots with the other. You would have to provide the keyer yourself but since the keyer will automatically send the right length of element to differentiate between the dit and the dah, all you would have to do is tap the left key or the right key in the right order to send the character. That way all you would have to know to send the letter "a" is that you would need a pair of taps - #left then right.

I assume you have no problem differentiating between your left and right hands?

Let me know if any of these suggestions would help in your re-learning the Morse Code.

As I said, the accomodations that can be made are significant. If you have not read the VEC manuals I would suggest you do so. You might be happily surprised at what can be done to get you past the Morse Code test. You just have to *want* to first.

tim ab0wr

ab0wr

02-22-2006, 09:25 PM

Quote[/b] (K3DAV @ Feb. 22 2006,12:12)]Quote[/b] (ab0wr @ Feb. 22 2006,07:43)]Surprise me. Come up with an excuse we all haven't heard a thousand times.

tim ab0wr
That Tim, would not be possible. #If 100 people gave you the absolute best reasons in the world, that made absolute perfect sense, you would still argue and say it is just another excuse.

This is the whole point of this thread and the dozens that have come before it on the same subject. #You can't change. #It is impossible for you to see anything from anyone elses point of view. #You have already come up with the idea that all of the testing will someday go away, and the ham bands will become like CB. #And you blame it all on people who choose not to like 1 specific mode of transmission.

It is so clear in your words that we should keep the CW requirement because you had to do it, and you want it that way. #What others think or feel have no validity in your mind.

After over one full year of no-code hams on HF in the rest of the world have proven that everything you fear is just nonsense and just will not happen, you still preach the same old tune over and over. #Your stuck in a rut and can't climb out. #Dropping the CW requirement will happen like it or not. #And no-code tech's will take and pass their element 3 exam and get on the HF bands. #They will be good hams and have the same fun with it as you have had. #If they had to learn CW, it would not make them any better an operator than you or anyone else. #

The time of bickering over this pointles argument is long passed. #Now is the time to welcome and help the new guys do the right thing when their time comes. #You do that by leading by example. Not by prejudice.

How about if YOU come up with an excuse that we haven't heard a thousand times. Especially one that hasn't been already proven wrong by facts, a thousand times. #I just find it sad that we must look at ham operators in other countries as a leading example of how to treat new hams on the HF bands.
Your claim that the rest of the world does not have Morse Code testing for licensing is wrong.

Do you even know what other major countries still have Morse Code tests?

tim ab0wr

ab0wr

02-22-2006, 09:28 PM

Quote[/b] (K3DAV @ Feb. 22 2006,12:30)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Feb. 22 2006,09:21)]Quote[/b] ]DAV: No I wouldn't have. #I have constant ringing in my ears that pulsate with my heartbeat. #When you send dots and dashes, all I hear is a bunch of dots that sometimes blend together.

DAV: Just don't skip the crack in that record to much longer. #You might break the needle.

I bet your crack runs a few miles on that "skip". But of course the entire rules have to change because of your condition, right? #Not just a medical waiver, right? # And I guess the soothing SSB static will make your ears feel better? # I've seen VEs give the code test with a flashlight for nearly deaf people who found a way to do it. #People have gone ALOT farther with bigger problems. #Does the world owe you something?
Oooooo Great comeback. #What are your next words of wisdom? #My Dad can beat up your Dad? #I know you are, but what am I? Sticks and stones can break my bones, but names will never hurt me? #Well you are too?

I guess you have shown us poor little Tech's how a person who knows CW is so much a better ham than us.

Come on I can't wait for your next reply of wisdom and well thought out charming tidbits.

FYI: #Our local VE's have said that they don't do Flashlights. #If you can't hear the tones, then you are screwed. #And SSB static is soothing. #People with my hearing problem would understand that. #But I don't expect you to even try.
Really? Your VE's said that?

Please, I would like names and city. This is not acceptable based on any of the VE manuals.

If you won't take action on this -- I WILL.

Send them to me privately if you want.

tim ab0wr

ky5u

02-22-2006, 09:35 PM

Quote[/b] (n0doz @ Feb. 22 2006,14:17)]You win, YO... you don't hear anyone but yourself, so you'e got to be right.
I still don't care either way. I acknowledge that I haven't gone so deep in this hobby like a lot of you that nothing else matters. Thanks for the "education."
I do enjoy reading the "meltdown" every time this subject comes up, though. Very entertaining!!
Yep me too. Good luck amigo.

ab0wr

02-22-2006, 09:36 PM

Quote[/b] ]kd6nig:
But I really know what you all fear-one licence class. One test, and we get it all. You're no longer unique. You can no longer puff out your chest and say "I'm a MIGHTY EXTRA!" Once the code goes away, you can say you're a 20WPM extra, and everyone except for your buddies is going to look at you and say..... "So?" Thats what you really fear-not being able to brag anymore.

This is quite revealing of your mindset.

You *DO* understand that there are such things as Morse Code qualifying runs done at various speeds regularly through the year?

What do you say to someone who qualifies at 40wpm on the qualifying run, gets a certificate from the ARRL, and then says "I'm a 40wpm qualifier and you aren't!".

Are you going to whine about that also? Or get off your butt and go learn the code and get the qualification too?

Some people will actually *work* at looking for reasons to tear the mountain down rather than climbing it. They want to make life into a race down into mediocrity instead of a climb up into superiority.

Which are you?

tim ab0wr

KD6NIG

02-22-2006, 09:45 PM

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Feb. 22 2006,14:07)]Quote[/b] (KD6NIG @ Feb. 22 2006,13:52)]Where exactly in my post did I demand respect? #I don't think I did at all.

All I asked for is all of those people on the ladder on top of me to stop spitting on me because of who I am.

I'm just being asked to be recognised for what I am, a fellow ham radio operator. #Not a lazy no-code tech. #I'm not lazy, I choose at this time not to upgrade. #Isn't that my choice?

I don't like the fact that some people around here feel that I'm not a real ham unless I take my tests in front of a FCC examiner, know 20WPM, etc.

Thats all I'm trying to get rid of here. #And people using that the tests were harder, the code was faster, so I'm better doesn't fly with me. #The FCC and the VEC have changed the tests and the rules. #Don't put ME down because I met the requirements they set 13 years ago. #Thats all I'm saying. #Direct your venom and fire to the people who make the rules, not those who follow them. #Its not my fault that I can't test for code at 20WPM now if I wanted to, is it? #And it won't be my fault later either. #Blaming me for following the rules in place is wrong. #I didn't make them, I just looked at the hobby, looked at the requirements, and went for it.

I would just really like to know how things beyond my control are my fault, and make me a "non REAL HAM OPERATOR" as some people put it, is all.....

Now, if you want to call me lazy AFTER I upgrade without code, then thats justified. #But just because I'm a NCT doesn't mean that I'm going to take that route. #If I do, flame away. #But until I do, calling me lazy is wrong, I think. #Perhaps I'm just content with what I have now....don't I have that right?

And you didn't need to post that I was a technician. #I thought I said that clearly, and my signature also plainly states that. #I'm proud of what I am. #I'm not proud of the stereotype people push around because of the level I'm currently at, though.
Where in your post did you demand respect? The whole thing. #This whole post too. Your jealousy of some of those people is obvious. If you're secure in what you do, then who cares what other people think?

Personally I recognize you as a fellow amateur. #I just hate to see you consumed with that attitude.
Call it what you like, but it isn't jealousy.

I don't demand respect, I know it needs to be earned.

But some of the people in this thread DO demand respect. The statement "I had to take my test in front of an FCC examiner and you didn't" SCREAMS "I'm better than you, BOW DOWN YOU LOWLY PERSON!"

There is a way to make that statement without making it sound like that by the way.....make no statement at all. Use that as an answer if someone asks, but when your opening statement is that, to me, you're simply bragging or wanting me to feel like I should respect you because of that statement. It drips ego.

I look up to those hams, in my licence class and above, who treat me as what I am-an Amateur Radio Operator. They don't look at me and go "Heh. NCT. Must be lazy." The true amateur asks WHY and makes a judgement, instead of just assumptions.

I could puff my chest out too and brag about things, sure. But I'm not gonna. Lets just say I do my part to live by the amateur's code, and leave it at that. I help my fellow hams when I can, and I don't expect anything in return. I don't have to brag. I'm a Amateur Radio Operator and I'm proud to be a member of the Ham Family, so to speak.

And being part of this family, I say this sincerely...some of you lose just a BIT of ego, put the 'dumbing down' in the lap of the people who are doing it, and we'll get along fine, all of us. And I'll respect you for your licence class, because you're willing to help me, instead of look down upon me.

w7lpn

02-22-2006, 09:54 PM

I'm learning the code to pass the 5wpm required. If it was still 12 or 20wpm, I'd try to do that. Not because I'm afraid some "Old" ham won't talk to me, but just because I don't want to wait until they decide and I like and respect traditional nostalgia. I won't use it on the air much, I don't think, unless I get fast enough. I might change my mind. Anyway, it doesn't need to become personal. So long as the FCC keeps the trash off the air by making testing just hard enough to keep the lazy rule breakers off, that's fine with me. "Freebanders are freebanders because they don't want to follow the rules or get licensed, and are too lazy to learn the rules and get tested. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

KI6ADA

02-22-2006, 10:02 PM

Do you know how many extras and advance technicians work off repeaters? um, let me see I have worked mostly extra and advanced operators while using the Echolink repeater system.
Come on people your scarring me, all aspects of Ham radio is just a hobby,ITS JUST A HOBBY!
Lets have fun and make our friends see how much we can do in amateur radio including CW.
GET OVER IT, THE HOBBY IS FOR EVERYBODY, NOT JUST A FEW TUBE WARMERS. WELCOME TO 2006 NOT 1936.

I spoke my case and have a great day http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

K1MVP

02-22-2006, 10:12 PM

Quote[/b] (K3DAV @ Feb. 22 2006,13:00)]Quote[/b] (K1MVP @ Feb. 22 2006,14:46)]Quote[/b] (KI6ADA @ Feb. 22 2006,00:49)][quote=ka3fad,Feb. 19 2006,20:19]I was just #read the editorial for March QST.

What's a tube? isn't that the TV? What's a telegraph key? isn't that a fancy hotel room key? What's a packet? Did you mean pocket? What's PSK 31? Is that a new video game? OK the list can go on and on and on....!

Save Ham Radio #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Yep,--read the propaganda in QST,"it seems to us" and
if you believe it, it is no wonder you are confused.IMO

AS far as "whats a TV"?--well at the rate the dumbed-
down tests are going,--the questions will soon be,
hams use the following,
a. a radio to talk
b. a video game
c #a computer
d. all of the above.

And of course hams DO use all of the above at one time
or another,--so ALL of the answers ARE correct, SO you
cannot get any wrong,--SO YOU PASS, and the FCC
WILL issue you a ham ticket, and YOU ARE a "qualified"
ham radio operator,--EXTRA class on top of that.
CW--http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif whats that? no need for that "old stuff"

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #73, K1MVP

P.S,--AND the ARRL will issue you a "diploma" for
# # # passing when you join them, and get your QST.
# # # Wow what a "bargain".
And if you click your red heels together 3 times, you might wake up and be back home in the real world.

And yet even another shinning example of a person knowledgable of CW. #The list is growing with every new post.
Maybe the ARRL should "click their heels 3 times" and
wake up in the REAL world.

Apparently, --too many at the ARRL, DO NOT know cw or have forgotten it ever existed, AND that`s why they favor the "new" digital modes, OR is that it just makes sense to get "free e-mail" on HF for their yachts?

# # # # # # # # # # # # # #73, K1MVP

P.S.,--the "freebie mentality" IS alive and well after all. # # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

ab9lz

02-22-2006, 10:14 PM

Quote[/b] (w7lpn @ Feb. 22 2006,14:54)]I'm learning the code to pass the 5wpm required. If it was still 12 or 20wpm, I'd try to do that. Not because I'm afraid some "Old" ham won't talk to me, but just because I don't want to wait until they decide and I like and respect traditional nostalgia. #I won't use it on the air much, I don't think, unless I get fast enough. #I might change my mind. Anyway, it doesn't need to become personal. #So long as the FCC keeps the trash off the air by making testing just hard enough to keep the lazy rule breakers off, that's fine with me. "Freebanders are freebanders because they don't want to follow the rules or get licensed, and are too lazy to learn the rules and get tested. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
1) You may be surprised as to how much fun code is, and glean a little insight as to why it is still popular in this day and age... And don't worry about speed, lots of new hams still discovering code (like myself), hence there are quite a few folks out there sending at a nice and easy pace.

2) It just may be that the FCC may wish to hang onto the code requirement as some sort of *yahoo* filter... effective or not there is precious little else in the testing requirements to guarantee some semblance of commitment from the spectrum users that they will at least try to comply with the rules. They seem to be comfortable in the fact that most NCT’s stay within the channelized repeater environments, hence the current licensing strategy is satisfactory.

73's
Mark
AB9LZ

K1MVP

02-22-2006, 10:21 PM

Quote[/b] (KI6ADA @ Feb. 22 2006,15:02)]GET OVER IT, THE HOBBY IS FOR EVERYBODY, NOT JUST A FEW TUBE WARMERS. WELCOME TO 2006 NOT 1936.

I spoke my case and have a great day http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif
Again,--I AGREE,--welcome to amateur radio in 2006,--
the year of celebrating the freebie" ham tickets.

1936?--well that was when hams DID have to WORK for
a ham ticket.(cw and all)
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # 73, K1MVP

n0doz

02-22-2006, 11:24 PM

>Good luck amigo<
Back at ya!

N2EY

02-22-2006, 11:29 PM

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Feb. 22 2006,11:00)]
Quote[/b] ]If you don't believe me, look at the ARRL Petition RM-11306 which reduces the CW spectrum on 40m to 35kHz.

No, it doesn't.

Currently, CW is allowed from 7000 to 7300 kHz on 40 meters.

Under the ARRL proposal, that would not change at all.

What *would* change is that 'phone would be allowed from 7100 to 7300.

What *would* change is that data modes would be allowed all the way up to 7300

And most data modes would not be allowed below 7035 - only those narrower than 200 Hz (PSK31) would be allowed below 7035. That's a big change, because right now all authorized data modes are allowed all the way down to 7000, but prohibited from the 'phone bands.

Other bands are similar.

The ARRL "regulation by bandwidth" proposal could be renamed as:

"Widen The Phone Bands"
"Allow Data To Mix With Phone"
"Unleash The Robots"

Quote[/b] ]Look at the CTT petition RM-11305 that seeks to allow voice anywhere in the bands.

Not just voice but all authorized modes. IOW, a free-for-all. Yet it would retain subbands-by-license-class as they are now. (So would the ARRL proposal).

Quote[/b] ]Little NCG dweebles will fill the bands up and drown out CW.

What are "little NCG dweebles"? I don't know any.

Please note who the authors of the CTT proposal are. They're not newcomers!

Both proposals were opposed by a huge majority of comments. One count I saw said that 5 out of 6 comments were against them!

73 de Jim, N2EY

k1lwi

02-22-2006, 11:34 PM

well do way with the code that is great also do way with the writen exam too than we all can be ham . but i think the code be keep for the extra lic only for the cw hams that is a fun mode. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

wendell K1LWI
hsc-tops-A1op-ex foc

73

ky5u

02-23-2006, 12:22 AM

Quote[/b] (N2EY @ Feb. 22 2006,16:29)]
Quote[/b] ]If you don't believe me, look at the ARRL Petition RM-11306 which reduces the CW spectrum on 40m to 35kHz.

No, it doesn't.

Currently, CW is allowed from 7000 to 7300 kHz on 40 meters.

Under the ARRL proposal, that would not change at all.

What *would* change is that 'phone would be allowed from 7100 to 7300.

What *would* change is that data modes would be allowed all the way up to 7300

And most data modes would not be allowed below 7035 - only those narrower than 200 Hz (PSK31) would be allowed below 7035. That's a big change, because right now all authorized data modes are allowed all the way down to 7000, but prohibited from the 'phone bands.

Other bands are similar.

The ARRL "regulation by bandwidth" proposal could be renamed as:

"Widen The Phone Bands"
"Allow Data To Mix With Phone"
"Unleash The Robots"

Quote[/b] ]Look at the CTT petition RM-11305 that seeks to allow voice anywhere in the bands.

Not just voice but all authorized modes. IOW, a free-for-all. Yet it would retain subbands-by-license-class as they are now. (So would the ARRL proposal).

Quote[/b] ]Little NCG dweebles will fill the bands up and drown out CW.

What are "little NCG dweebles"? I don't know any.

Please note who the authors of the CTT proposal are. They're not newcomers!

Both proposals were opposed by a huge majority of comments. One count I saw said that 5 out of 6 comments were against them!

73 de Jim, N2EY
Jim,

CW operating above 7.035kHz in the ARRL plan would be nearly as bad as it would in the CTT plan competing with Pactor II modems and other data signals. The 200Hz spectrum in 20 meters is 60kHz but in 40 meters is 35kHz. You can paint lipstick on it, but it is still a pig.

Yes, I know what the CTT people wanted to do. But for their "experience", they missed the obvious two issues. The free for all it would create on the bands, and the failure to restrict data station bandwidth. Both petitions allow free reign for automatic stations.

The intention was the unwarranted expansion of data modes and expansion of voice modes at the expense of CW.

k4eez

02-23-2006, 12:54 AM

Novice, Tech, Tech+, General, Extra, Advanced
I am better than you...

My car is bigger than yours

I am still beter than you...

C O M E On Guys...

This crap should be keeped in the school yard at play time
By golly...

NO !
Wonder why most people try so hard to be hared over the QRM of scrupling ham’s that don’t listen as they are to busy Bashing each other over the head with 2 by 4 planks of wood over code Vs no-code crap!

WHERE THERE ARE NEW COMMERS TO THE HOBBY, THERE WILL FOREVER BE CODE VS. NO-CODE (as it will remain for the time being)

Remember your roots !!!

Most of you also once steped on the ladder at some point or another and started at the bottom step and worked your way up, Now help those behind you!
Do the Right Thing.

Why don’t you guys take a chill pill and sit back and relax in the E-Z Seat.

I did try to ask a question Wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Back in the posting, but I guess the OM’s kicked on the 2kw amp and turned that big old boy of a 20 element beam and and now can't hear my 100-Watt station calling
CQ, I must be running a QRP with 100 watts

Well I am still waiting, I think you guys that are hitting each other over the head should just chill out, before you do some damage that can not be repaired.

Quote:

" According to the Federal Communications Commission, amateur ("ham") radio is:

A radio communications service for the purpose of self-training, intercommunication, and technical investigations carried out by amateurs, that is, duly authorized persons interested in radio technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest.
But that definition leaves out something very important: Ham Radio is a lot of fun! " Un-Quote

Now where did I put the Modified auto nail gun...

Geez…

#http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

KC0OFZ

02-23-2006, 02:00 AM

Quote[/b] (k3ng @ Feb. 22 2006,11:29)]AG4YO, answer me this: are any of the spectrum petitions dependent on code testing changes? #You're proping up your argument for CW testing with unrelated actions that haven't even occured.

If your metric for the health of ham radio isn't licensee numbers, what is it? #I'd rather have good people as well, though eliminating the code test won't necessarily bring in bad operators like some claim. #With our numbers declining, our already weak standing with the FCC will be eroded further. #When do you take action?
So we can hold you to that? #You say NO bad ops will come in after the code is dropped? #IF you think that is true.....wow.....but, what if eliminating the code does not bring in this huge influx like some claim? #What then? #Do we lower the standards farther? #Where do you stop it? #
Why is it no one gives a target number or such for a number we what to have for ticket numbers, no the word "more" is not good enough. #If you do not set a goal such as a 10% growth or 15 % growth in new numbers or such, how will you ever measure sucess? #If you do not set specific goals, how do you know if you ever reach what you want?
I would like to hear what is next if in about 5 years the numbers are still slipping.

N7YA

02-23-2006, 02:29 AM

Quote[/b] (ws4y @ Feb. 22 2006,07:12)]Hey Adam I can see it now. In my final years I will
be in a cell. The guy in the next cell will say " hey pal,
what you in for?" And I'll say "they caught me operating
cw on the hf amateur bands"
I think this will cause me bad dreams.
73, Bill WS4Y
Oh geez! heh heh...yeah, that guy in the next cell will be me.

Im afraid that no lawyer will touch it...so there we will sit. tapping messages to eachother on the pipes.

73...Adam, N7YA

N6BOA

02-23-2006, 02:29 AM

Hasn't the fat lady sung already? Sheesh...

KG4RRH

02-23-2006, 02:34 AM

Quote[/b] (ab0wr @ Feb. 22 2006,17:18)]Frankly, it sounds to me like you have tried to learn Morse Code the wrong way.

It needs to be learned as a spoken language, not as a counting sequence.

It is rather hard for me to believe that you can learn Japanese as a spoken language but can't learn Morse Code as a spoken language. There is *very* little difference.

Have you tried using a set of headphones with one earpiece carrying the dits and the other one the dahs? I know of a fellow who learned this way - it just made it easier for him. Once he learned it as a spoken language in this manner, he had no further problem with it.

And folks, I *HAVE* seen people write down the dots and dashes on their test paper and then go back and decode it later. There isn't any rule against that.

If you will take the time to actually *read* the VEC manual and the techniques available for making accomodations, you will find that it is even acceptable to pause between characters to allow the character to be put on paper. All it takes is a doctor's note to the VE that the condition exists.

In fact, if a doctor will confirm that your hearing prevents taking the test, a *sending* test can be substituted. Do you have the ability to operate a hand key and send dits and dahs? If not, a special key can be substituted (e.g. a two paddle keyer) where you could send dits with one hand and dots with the other. You would have to provide the keyer yourself but since the keyer will automatically send the right length of element to differentiate between the dit and the dah, all you would have to do is tap the left key or the right key in the right order to send the character. That way all you would have to know to send the letter "a" is that you would need a pair of taps - left then right.

I assume you have no problem differentiating between your left and right hands?

Let me know if any of these suggestions would help in your re-learning the Morse Code.

As I said, the accomodations that can be made are significant. If you have not read the VEC manuals I would suggest you do so. You might be happily surprised at what can be done to get you past the Morse Code test. You just have to *want* to first.

tim ab0wr
What is the "counting method"? That is a new one for me, perhaps it might work.

I have failed at every attempt at formal language instruction, some say even years and years of English, and yet I feel quite fluent in 12 of 18 languages. For those 12, I think in the language; there is no translation the takes place. I've try doing this with CW and can actually almost got there but that's it. I've try light (various frequencies, paterns, brightness,....), head phones (yes, I've done split, frequency shifts...), thumpers at various locations and beats, .... even direct nerve simulation (shock!) along with combinations of all with limited success.

I've not found a way to differentiate a dit from a dah unless the dah is 20 to 30s longer than the dit nor can I make any part of my body send dit or dah with anything that resembles consistancy ..... lots of dahs end up being dit size and lots of dits end up being dahs. A keyer might get me around that, I've not tried that in a while. Even that I question though, it's not at all a hearing problem I have, it's much deeper in my brain but I most certainlygive it try. Another strange thing is that I don't have any difficulty playing musical instruments and do quite nicely with several different string, brass, percussion, and woodwind pieces; all learned, except for the trumpet, after recovery. I have been able to convert dits and dah to cords of equal duration and been able to most copy (50-60%) but it's not even close to what would be an 5wpm equvalent rate.

As far as getting a doctor's excuse, most I seen over the years have told me that I should just be glad I can understand any language and speak at all. I've not been to a doc specifically on CW or for that matter anything related to my recovery in 20+ years. I have gotten questioned on how long it took me to recovery from my "stroke" after a MRI was done looking for a the cause of a 6 week major headache I had a few years ago. It was quite interesting to see how much of my head it still filled with non-functional stuff, especial where my IQ is at but then I really don't believe those tests are a reflection of much of anything :-)

One REALLY strange thing (my opinion of course) is that I don't process visual items through my auditory language center .... I can read a book (of which I do a lot of) and not be able to tell you things like that names of the characters or places called out without first writting them down (from memory) and sounding them out. I can also "re-read" a book without ever picking it up again. I do not, either consciously or, as I've come to believe, sub-consciously, sound out words when I'm reading or writting them.

None of this seemed to hurt me in the slightest getting several advanced degrees and it reallly seemed to help with advanced math. Nor has any of it prevented me from holding several very good jobs, raising two very good children to adults, or for that matter, succeeding at any other endevor that I set my mind to. My UHF/VHF station has only one piece of equipment (a VX5r) that wasn't designed and built by me in it today. I do have a Yaesu 857 and a pair of VX150's in my jump bag kit though.

I do not want any special treatment; I've never asked for it nor will I accept it. I do not consider myself disabled in the slightest nor do I want to be treated that way. Where we sit today though is that the FCC says that I need to be able to send and received @ 5 for me to be able to use the freq's below 6M. The reason use to be that it was required by international treaty of which our government is a signatory to. That is no longer a requirement. CW is just a mode like all the others. Granted, it's steeped in tradition but saying that always reminds me of Fiddler on the Roof. If CW was/is a filter, what is it filtering? Not "bad" operators for sure. I do feel comfortable in the statement that some people will not put forth the effort required but I also know that some people who get filtered out have similar problems to myself/

I would like to see MUCH hard written test without publish question pools but government reg's, not the FCC, prevents that.

What real galls me is to hear people use generalizations like -

Anyone can learn CW. I know this from both personal experience and actively searching out others who have tried over and over again to learn it and couldn't - not every one can.

THE reason you can't is (...fill in the blank...). Without knowing or attempting to understand any of the specifics with the person involved, such statements have absolutely no merit. We are all wired differently, some more differently that others.

wa4dou

02-23-2006, 03:17 AM

This is really pointless. Over the years "I can't" digs in deeper and deeper and the excuses people hypnotize themselves with become more and more complex. I see no point to exposing myself to anymore of it. I'm out of here.

ab0wr

02-23-2006, 03:25 AM

Quote[/b] ]
I've not found a way to differentiate a dit from a dah unless the dah is 20 to 30s longer than the dit nor can I make any part of my body send dit or dah with anything that resembles consistancy ..... lots of dahs end up being dit size and lots of dits end up being dahs. A keyer might get me around that, I've not tried that in a while. Even that I question though, it's not at all a hearing problem I have, it's much deeper in my brain but I most certainlygive it try. Another strange thing is that I don't have any difficulty playing musical instruments and do quite nicely with several different string, brass, percussion, and woodwind pieces; all learned, except for the trumpet, after recovery. I have been able to convert dits and dah to cords of equal duration and been able to most copy (50-60%) but it's not even close to what would be an 5wpm equvalent rate.

If you have problems with duration then how do you play 1/2 notes, 1/4 notes, 1/8 notes, etc?

If you can play 1/2 notes and 1/8 notes on a string instrument then you should be able to play 1/2 notes and 1/8 notes on a key. There isn't any difference.

And, again, if you use a keyer, there isn't any duration to worry about. Get a doctors note that you have a problem distinguishing duration of notes and ask for a sending test.

If you provide a keyer all you have to remember is left-right combinations. left-right for an "a". 4 lefts for an "h". right-left-right-left for a "c".

You didn't say whether or not you have a problem with handling left and right. If you don't, that would seem to be a valid avenue for you to investigate in learning the combinations needed to pass a sending test. 36 combinations and a bit of practice would have you sending at 5wpm in no time.

Let me know if you need help with a keyer. I can make one up and fedex it to you in less than a week!

tim ab0wr

N7YA

02-23-2006, 03:32 AM

I had read quite a few pages back...someone had suggested pulling the whole thing and REALLY firing up the examination proccess...for ALL classes..

Im ok with this, its a scary thought, but if we are going to test hams, lets do it right!

1) Make all new entry level classes build a basic Xcvr, qrp would be fine, ugly would be fine, any mode you want it to be would be fine...but it must be operational. you also have to make a dipole using the frequency formula.

2)you MUST demonstrate proficency in ALL modes that are available to ham radio operators...and i mean ALL. you must even be able to demonstrate proper voice skills. this test will retrograde when new modes are created.

3)you must do as the old Soviet Union used to do...copy and QSL 5000 on air qso's (i think they had to do 25,000 AND build a rig before they got a ticket), including satallite qsos, just to get a feel for it...of course, 80 meter SSB would be exempt, we dont need to be teaching ANYONE how to act like THAT! 5000 would be this proposals version of a "gimme".

4)you must know..i mean KNOW part 97 inside and out.

5) you must know...and i mean KNOW basic electrical theory, propagation, bandplans, all the basic stuff the test of 20 years ago covers. but with no pre-printed answers that you can buy and memorize. and you must be able to draw a diagram of your answers when applicable.

6)you must retest every 10 (ten) years to demonstrate that you are still proficient.

7)If you held a previous license, and it was suspended due to poor operating practices, you must wait a mandatory 5 (five) years to retest, at which time you will start all over...your previous call will not be reissued to you, as well as being subject to probationary scrutiny.

8)If you held a previous license but failed the test, you have 1 (one) year to study to retest, the current 2 year grace period will still be in effect, so you may still get your old call...not passing THIS test the first time is not a crime. one should not feel too bad...take the year and get your ducks in a row and take another shot.

9)anyone passing the above criteria will be rewarded with full privleges and a very ornate diploma worthy of framing.

10)this i leave to the rest, if anyone has yet another hurdle that would prove ALL hams are worthy to wear the hat, please post it.

If we had to do a test like this, im sure there would be no problem...notice that i left out license classing, however...

there would ONE class that is special, it would be the new extra, you must demonstrate SERIOUS, computer based technology, broadcast engineering level knowledge. if you pass THIS test...no one can touch you. and job opportunities would fly to your feet.

Im not kidding about this, im not being a donkey...im serious. I would run the gauntlet right there with you, and i would likely not pass the first time, but i would sure try like hell...and in the end, i would have gained a little more self respect for how far i have come. and when we DO pass, this would be something we could all be proud of.

YAAAWWWNNNN...(smack smack scratch scratch)...hmmm...wow, what a weird dream...what time is it??...am i late for work???

73...Adam, N7YA