W5YI Testing

[ae2ny]

This is only one example of several that can be found online... #ARRL California Story (http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2002/08/21/100/?nc=1)

I have a very deep-rooted concern over why the FCC continues to recall those Hams that have passed their technician exams, and is making them re-test. #When I went to go become a VE, I had two choices... Be a VE for W5YI, or be a VE for the ARRL.

I weighed several of the pros and cons of each and I'll be honest, the deciding factor was this...

I wasn't going to be a VE for an organization that has had several VE terminations and hundreds of hams called and told they had to re-test because something wasn't right.

I thought VE's were to hold to a much higher standard than what the FCC is apparently showing goes on? #Or is being a VE now an Elitest move? #Only badge-hunters get to be VE's so they can show someone "Hey I'm a VE, look at me look at me"

I'm sorry, I think I'm getting VE and Amateur Extra confused again... Or am I?


Anthony - AE2NY
Proud ARRL VE

[AC0H]

It's bound to continue until the FCC makes it painful for VE's to do this sort of thing.

[ac3p]

Precisely why, even though I got W5YI VEC credentials I do not volunteer to do their sessions.

Frank AC3P ARRL VE

[WA2ZDY]

Seven VEs and five with the same name? The other two with another same name? I dunno, just speaks of "oddities" to me. Imagine seven VEs on a team, all named Johnson. Good thing none of the examinees had the same name too.

Wow.

Honesty and integrity - wonderful to have them. Reminds me why I'm glad I'm an elitist - Oh I mean why I'm glad I took all my exams - amateur and commercial, except for Novice - at the FCC office in NY City.

That DOES make me an elitist, doesn't it?

[WA9SVD]

It's unfortunate that SOME VE's apparently were not ethical. , and either cheated, allowed cheating, or in any way compromised the Volunteer testing process. They should be ashamed of themselves, and their license should be revoked.
You are correct to believe, and EXPECT VE's to be honest, and if they are not, it is a disservice to the entire Amateur community. And for those people that obtained their licence legitimately and now have to be retested of the actions of a few dishonest VE's, they have been done a great disservice.
But this could have happened anywhere, not just in California.
I'm sure 99+44/100 % of VE's and VEC's are honest, and hold themselves and their fellow VE's to the strictest standards, as we would expect. It's just that (in a case such as this) even "one bad apple" spoils the entire barrel, and casts a shadow on the entire testing program, at least in that region.

But, this unfortunately is not a new phenomenon. Back in the late 80's I was approached by a co-worker (actually, a supervisor in another dept.) also a ham, but not a VE, , (don't even remember the name or call) who said (knowing I was a Tech at the time) that I could have a General Ticket for a mere $100, or an Extra for $500, no questions asked, no testing required. (Since I upgraded to General in 2000, I obviously didn't accept the offer!) But I let him know that I was appalled at even the suggestion. Seeing as he was a supervisor, and not knowing if he was full of "baloney" or serious, I let the matter drop. But apparently, ever since the VE system started, there have been those that abuse the privilege of VE, and do not uphold the standards we expect, and the FCC demands.

But consider this: You are a certified VE. The only way to ensure that testing is done on a fair and honest basis is for yourself and those like you to actually get involved! And make sure there are no "irregularities" in the testing process. And report any suspicious activity if you see other VE's misbehaving. (That's probably how the irregularities in this recent situation first came to light.)
I admire and applaud the VE's; they devote a lot of their own time and effort to the Amateur Service, and they deserve our sincerest "thank you!". And the good honest ones do not deserve to have their reputation tarnished by a few miscreants.

[K3UD]

From the news article:

"Hollingsworth praised the W5YI VEC for acting promptly in the case. W5YI-VEC really did their homework on this one," he said, "picking up on some comments and complaints on Internet newsgroups about the exam session and, doing a little further research, found some good reasons to refer the matter to us. We really appreciate the vigilance of the W5YI VEC in this case."

Of course the FCC has had its own scandal as it concerns Amateur Radio. It seems that an FCC official was taking bribes from hams who wanted specific callsigns sometime in the 60s or 70s. They cleared the mess up which is what should happen when it is discovered. It looks like this one was cleared up but one has to wonder how many others went undetected.

In the 60s Wayne Green reported that a certain club on the west coast "gave" every new unlicensed member a Technician license just for joining the club. He never mentioned the name of the club but did mention it in Never Say Die. Licensing fraud has been around as long as ham radio has been a licensed service. There have always been complaints about the old Class C licenses taken by mail have been handled.


73
George
K3UD

[W5HTW]

I have been asked a couple of times by two close friends, to become a VE. I choose not to. To be honest, I would rather either testing go away entirely and we hand out licenses freely, or we get no new hams at all and let amateur radio die a natural death.

The VE program was a mistake. It could have been a good move, but it needed far better supervision from the FCC. (I, too, am proud, and prouder with each such incident I read about, that I took all my amateur and commercial exams in front of an unbiased FCC examiner.)

In the 1980s, the huge influx of hams due to the "you're my buddy, so yeah, you passed" licensing, brought to us the mess we now hear on the HF ham bands. These were the people "trained" in CB, and for a few bucks they were suddenly hams, a shortcut to bedlam. Worse still, they are the majority of hams on HF now, since many of the true old timers have either left ham radio or died, or moved to CW where the CB-OT can't find them. We complain about the mess on 75 meters (which is, I admit, greatly exxagerated) but it is exactly this, the failuer of the VE program, that gave us that mess. And those guys are now the ones our newcomers call Old Timers, and learn from.

To me, the two biggest mistakes in ham radio have been the creation of the VE program, and the end of the original Novice license. Neither will be corrected.

All that said, I think most VEs are honest. Yet all it takes is one exam session to turn out 30 new unqualified hams, who, having obtained their licenses by fraudulent means, will do the same to others when they are qualified to do so. It is, and has been, a self-perpetuating failure. I know a few people who are VEs who are qutting. And I don't blame them. The few who become so highly visible for fraudulent licensing sessions, give them all, and ham radio in general, a bad name.

Sadly, it will continue.

Ed

[K7KBN]

I'd like to be a VE, but I just don't want to move to Canada...

[ac3p]

I would like to see the FCC take back testing. I would pay a license fee to support it.

[WA3KYY]

Quote[/b] (WA2ZDY @ Feb. 07 2006,07:39)]Honesty and integrity - wonderful to have them. #Reminds me why I'm glad I'm an elitist - Oh I mean why I'm glad I took all my exams - amateur and commercial, except for Novice - at the FCC office in NY City.

That DOES make me an elitist, doesn't it?
Not really, just an OF http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[KC9ECI]

Quote[/b] (WA2ZDY @ Feb. 07 2006,09:39)]Seven VEs and five with the same name? #The other two with another same name? #I dunno, just speaks of "oddities" to me. #Imagine seven VEs on a team, all named Johnson. # Good thing none of the examinees had the same name too.

Wow.

Honesty and integrity - wonderful to have them. #Reminds me why I'm glad I'm an elitist - Oh I mean why I'm glad I took all my exams - amateur and commercial, except for Novice - at the FCC office in NY City.

That DOES make me an elitist, doesn't it?
That wouldn't be uncommon around here, everyone is named Johnson, Olson, Peterson, Severson or Swenson.

Welcome back to QRZ Tony, never say never huh! I got to work your FL NWS station for the skywarn event again this year. Forgot to ask if they were having chocolate cake again.

[kj3n]

Quote[/b] (KC9ECI @ Feb. 07 2006,12:56)]Quote[/b] (WA2ZDY @ Feb. 07 2006,09:39)]Seven VEs and five with the same name? #The other two with another same name? #I dunno, just speaks of "oddities" to me. #Imagine seven VEs on a team, all named Johnson. # Good thing none of the examinees had the same name too.

Wow.

Honesty and integrity - wonderful to have them. #Reminds me why I'm glad I'm an elitist - Oh I mean why I'm glad I took all my exams - amateur and commercial, except for Novice - at the FCC office in NY City.

That DOES make me an elitist, doesn't it?
That wouldn't be uncommon around here, everyone is named Johnson, Olson, Peterson, Severson or Swenson..
West Virginia: 1.5 Million people, 15 last names. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[n0iu]

Quote[/b] (ac3p @ Feb. 07 2006,09:15)]I would like to see the FCC take back testing. I would pay a license fee to support it.
With every round of restructuring, the FCC gets closer and closer to just giving away a ham license. I heard that once the CW test is #gone, everyone in NCI would get a complimentary membership in NTI - No Test International. I think there are some people who won't be happy until all of the so-called barriers to get a license are gone!

With GW planning on cutting the budget for things like Medicare, I think the chances of increasing the budget at the FCC in order to take back testing from the VE system are... umm.... about the same as hell freezing over!

Scott NØIU

[kj5t]

First off let me say that I know a lot of W5YI VEs and non of the ones that I know have ever done any funny business. I think the VE program is a great program to help get people licensed and on the air. Without the VE program there are many people that would not have gotten the change to drive to Dallas or any other field office and take their amateur radio exam. I am grateful for the VEs that I have tested with and all of them have been very kind of hve done things by the rules. The calfornia case keeps unfolding, but notice it is all from the same VE team. They just so happened to be with W5YI.

This summer I will be 18 and therefore old enough to apply to become a VE. I think that by becoming a VE I will be able to help out many different people, and by doing this I have decided to be a VE for both the ARRL and W5YI in order to provide help at either VE testing session.

[ae6yd]

In nearly every field, there are a few rotten apples. Licensing fraud is deplorable, and I hope that they catch every single one of these buy-a-hams and at the very least make them retest in front of FCC examiners, or a whole bunch of VE's. Ten or so.
However, that doesn't mean the VE system is inherently flawed. Every operator I've ever met in person, including the VE's for our club and those who tested me for my license, has kept their integrity. Without the VE system, I probably never would have been licensed. I took my exam 45 minutes away from home as-is, a drive to the FCC office in Los Angeles would have been out of the question. I'm certain it's the same for many people out here. Plus, it allows amateur radio to slip beneath the government's budget radar- if GW can kill student loans I'm sure he'd have no problems nuking the ham radio testing budget. Lastly, it establishes our status as a self-serving community. We are self-tested, self-regulated, and should be upholding only the highest standards of conduct both on and off the air. Those who do not should be self-regulated right out of the community.
Don't let a few bad ops spoil the system for everyone.

[W8FAX]

Fraud??? Leave us not to forget all the hams that ran around with their hands clasped to their heads screaming "my brain....my brain" whenever they heard the word "code test" so they could get a free ride medical waiver. The removal of this huge farce was one of the BEST moves ever made.........

[K6DBF]

Quote[/b] (WA3KYY @ Feb. 07 2006,10:31)]Quote[/b] (WA2ZDY @ Feb. 07 2006,07:39)]Honesty and integrity - wonderful to have them. #Reminds me why I'm glad I'm an elitist - Oh I mean why I'm glad I took all my exams - amateur and commercial, except for Novice - at the FCC office in NY City.

That DOES make me an elitist, doesn't it?
Not really, just an OF #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

If you took ur license in the 60s in NYC, you paid ur dues. I remember as a teenager during that time, going to the top floor of the Federal Building (I think it was) in lower Manhattan. The FCC office had creaky wooden floors and the guy who ran it, old Mr. Finkleman, was a real character. When one walked in, the first thing he said was "What the hell do you want?" It got worse from there. The old school desks that they used were just big enough for a medium build person to fit in. If you were overweight, it was a tight fit. The code machine he used--this old, old, widgit (I forget the name of it) which had to be at least as old as Finkleman--looked like it served double duty as an instrument of torture. So I understand what you are saying--if you got your ticket back then and in that place, you should be proud.

[WA9SVD]

There is no shame with having received a license under the VE program; Under the FCC rules in place at the time, that is/was the ONLY way to receive a license, there was no choice available to go the route of old timer's and test before the FCC examiners.
99+ 44/100% of the VE's are honest, loyal, reverent,clean, trustworthy, etc. The few bad or dishonest VE's shouldn't be allowed to spoil ot tarnish the whole situation.

[KC0OFZ]

Quote[/b] (n0iu @ Feb. 07 2006,13:24)]Quote[/b] (ac3p @ Feb. 07 2006,09:15)]I would like to see the FCC take back testing. I would pay a license fee to support it.
With every round of restructuring, the FCC gets closer and closer to just giving away a ham license. I heard that once the CW test is #gone, everyone in NCI would get a complimentary membership in NTI - No Test International. I think there are some people who won't be happy until all of the so-called barriers to get a license are gone!

With GW planning on cutting the budget for things like Medicare, I think the chances of increasing the budget at the FCC in order to take back testing from the VE system are... umm.... about the same as hell freezing over!

Scott NØIU
NTI is going to happen. After all it is too hard, I don't want to learn, I won't use it, I am unable to read, unable to think, and what ever else the excuse will be to eliminate the written test. This is not going to stop with the removal of the code test, these people what it free with no test needed.

[WA2ZDY]

Quote[/b] (KC0OFZ @ Feb. 11 2006,21:42)]NTI is going to happen. #After all it is too hard, I don't want to learn, I won't use it, I am unable to read, unable to think, and what ever else the excuse will be to eliminate the written test. #This is not going to stop with the removal of the code test, these people what it free with no test needed.
I'm forming NRI - No Reading International. We have voice synthesisers for our rigs. Computers that not only read to us but tell us where to make the next turn on the road (wives have been replaced as back seat drivers.) And besides, having to READ is an unnessary hinderance. It has nothing to do with ham radio, unless you want to use RTTY. In that case, a "literacy" endorsement can be had and used to allow RTTY operation.


And DBF, I missed Mr Finkleman and 748 Washington Street. My brother has regaled me with plenty of Finkleman horror stories though. I took my exams between Dec 75 and Nov 77 with Miss Thomas at the "new" federal building on Varick Street.

[WA9SVD]

Just wondering: Does W5YI refund the testing fee if people are recalled for testing when the discrepancy is due to improprieties of W5YI Volunteer Examiners?
If I were innocent but somehow implicated by association or otherwise involved, the last place I'd want to be re-tested is at another W5YI session, just on general principle!

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (KE7DLG @ Feb. 12 2006,19:11)]Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ Feb. 12 2006,11:53)]Just wondering: Does W5YI refund the testing fee if people are recalled for testing when the discrepancy is due to improprieties of W5YI Volunteer Examiners?
If I were innocent but somehow implicated by association or otherwise involved, the last place I'd want to be re-tested is at another W5YI session, just on general principle!
When recalled and retested it is with an FCC examiner and not a VE. I don't know about any fees but wouldn't think they would charge you for a retest but am sure they would be tempted if you failed miserably.

I would think any fee reimbursment through W5YI or any other VEC would be on a case by case basis and subject to your passing the retest. This is all speculation pulled from common sense as I see it and not researched fact.

My guess is those who failed a retest due to a fraudulant original exam would tuck tail and run without worrying about a refund. Of course there is one in every crowd who has to try and make it to America's Dumbest Criminals.
I guess that's one of the benefits of having taken the exams back in the Pre-Jurassic period, when you had to take the exams in front of FCC personnel.
But my point is that some people (such as the ones that passed a re-test) may have been innocent bystanders in a questionable test session, but had to be retested nonetheless. That would be highly unfair to those individuals. But the inconvenience and anguish associated with having to be retested because VE's were in question would seem horrible. I doubt actual FCC examiners (if any exist; from memory at the Chicago Federal Building, a fire-breathing dragon comes to mind... the FCC examiners WERE rather intimidating, whether they meant to be or not!) would charge a fee.
Then again, it seems the majority of those recalled chose not to be retested, and thus no longer have an Amateur License. (Not sure if the actual terminology is considered a voluntary (or involuntary) surrender of license, or a revocation.)
But some of those retested DID pass, despite the pressure and insinuations. It proves they deserve their license! Fortunately, most of us never have to be subjected to such scrutiny.

[K7KBN]

I remember those "pre-Jurassic days". You'd wake up early (assuming you'd been able to sleep). You'd skip breakfast. You'd get to the FCC office and sit Jurassic down and take the test.