Campaign To Justify Spying Intensifies

[KB9YCO]

Campaign To Justify Spying Intensifies - Washington Post article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/23/AR2006012300754.html?sub=AR)

While I'm not the conspiracy theory type that thinks the government is out to get everyone I do wonder about the constant erosion or our 'gauranteed rights' and freedoms and it's long lasting effects on our way of life.

I would like to think that this administration has the best intentions in mind to protect the country, and I believe for the most part they do (whether I agree with them all or not) I just don't know that overstepping the already seemingly un-constitutional aspects of the (un)Patriot(ic) Act that relate to spying domestically, and ignoring the checks and balances of our system of government is the right way to go. I do think the president is making an effort to protect the USA, and in some cases I think he's done a commendable job since 9-11, but I think they're letting the neo-conservative agenda cloud their vision in a lust for more power, and that ultimately they're taking their eye off the central issues of the war on terror globally, i.e. Iraq, etc.

Certainly shredding the Bill Of Rights is not the wisest path to take, but since none of us really know exactly the who/what/where that they are doing this spying, and what they are gaining from it, (or what we're losing) all I can do is maintain a layman's point of view, and support the principles of our founding documents, and oppose the further erosion of our private lives as citizens.

Quote[/b] ]Some experts on intelligence and national security law have said that the president overstepped his authority in ordering the NSA spying, and that the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) specifically prohibits such domestic surveillance without a warrant. But the Justice Department issued a "white paper" last week arguing that the president has inherent war powers under the Constitution allowing him to authorize the program.

[KA8NCR]

Bush has done a reasonable job at some things during his presidency. Afghanistan was handled quite well, in my opinion. And I too would like to think that the spying by the government is just to fight terrorism.

However, the reason shouldn't matter, it's wrong. The government CAN'T protect the citizens. Freedom has a price and if you're not willing to take ALL the risks, then you don't get freedom. It's an all or nothing proposition because once the government starts doling out your freedom, you're not really free.

Furthermore, people have the concept all wrong. The government doesn't grant rights, it's the people that grant power to the government. Somehow we've been conned into thinking we're a democracy when the founding members of this country created a constitutionally limited republic (and no Mr. Franklin, we've been unable to keep it -- sorry).

Bush may be correct, his domestic spying may be within the letter of the law. But it isn't the spirit of our founding laws, and quite frankly Mr. Bush, who espouses no shortage of patriotic fervor, should be able to tell the difference. Or worse, maybe he CAN tell the difference but the allure of the power those activities grant may be far too great to resist.

I remain unconvinced that this spying is legal. I find many of the things our government has done in our name to be very wrong. You can't claim you're spying on your own people and use "it's a war-time act" and then hold people prisoner in Cuba as enemy-combatants without adhering to the conventions of war. Is it a war or is it NOT a war? Our government has outsourced torture and tactics that would make Adolf Eikman cringe.

With those and many more concerns in light, it casts a dark shadow on everything our government does.

[n0jaa]

Spying without a warrant is unjustified, I don't care WHAT the reason is. Bush has bit off too much this time. I have just read an article on my political email list about a Washington coalition's attempt to instigate an impeachment trial for "Little Jorge." I hope they succeed.

Paul, N0JAA.

[N0WVA]

KB9YCO:

"While I'm not the conspiracy theory type that thinks the government is out to get everyone I do wonder about the constant erosion or our 'gauranteed rights' and freedoms and it's long lasting effects on our way of life."

N0WVA:

And rightly so. There are those who trust he government with anything and willingly hand over thier privacy and liberty for the sake of "safety". They dont understand that once measures like this come into effect, they can never be reversed.

How much better it is to cut the thing off at the pass and never touch upon such terror and war against our freedom.


KB9YCO:

I would like to think that this administration has the best intentions in mind to protect the country, and I believe for the most part they do (whether I agree with them all or not) I just don't know that overstepping the already seemingly un-constitutional aspects of the (un)Patriot(ic) Act that relate to spying domestically, and ignoring the checks and balances of our system of government is the right way to go. I do think the president is making an effort to protect the USA, and in some cases I think he's done a commendable job since 9-11, but I think they're letting the neo-conservative agenda cloud their vision in a lust for more power, and that ultimately they're taking their eye off the central issues of the war on terror globally, i.e. Iraq, etc.


N0WVA:

I disagree with the first part of your post. He is only protecting his assets, and if it looks like he is protecting you, it is only a by-product or an illusion. I think the president has his own intrests in mind, else we would see major moves to be independent of most of the oil coming from the rag heads. Instead of forking over billions of dollars to his oil buddies, he should be investing in alcohol and bio- production. The infrastructure should have been well underway by now, but what do we get? More dependence on terrorists. And I dont blame just Bush, its all those crooked bastages up there in that cess pool we call D.C.


KB9YCO:

"Certainly shredding the Bill Of Rights is not the wisest path to take, but since none of us really know exactly the who/what/where that they are doing this spying, and what they are gaining from it, (or what we're losing) all I can do is maintain a layman's point of view, and support the principles of our founding documents, and oppose the further erosion of our private lives as citizens."

N0WVA:

Most of the younger generation doesnt know or even care about the bill of rights. They dont care about the staples of our basic freedoms. As long as they can live there pathetic dependent lifestyle, they will accept about anything.

Once a few more old-timers and those who know what true freedom used to be die off, then the we will see those freedoms eroding at an accelerated rate, much like what you are witnessing now.

[K6UEY]

In a simplified version, I think the threat to ERODE our FREEDOMS by AQ and Bin Laden types are a bigger threat to this country than the President of the United States.

It is true to many, the Bush administration made a mistake by going through the Presidents counsel and by having the Justice Dept. review the practice BEFORE submitting it to the jail house lawyers for their approval.

Even a simple inquiry to the posters of QRZ would have releaved a lot of the contraversy.

But then again as long as Geo. Soros (SP)is willing to dump his money into the overthrow of this administration there always will be those that believe that GWB can do no right.

Too bad that they don't run this Global oriented administration more like a COMPUTER GAME,then when things go wrong all you need is a reset button!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KB9YCO]

"I disagree with the first part of your post. He is only protecting his assets, and if it looks like he is protecting you, it is only a by-product or an illusion. I think the president has his own intrests in mind..
Instead of forking over billions of dollars to his oil buddies, he should be investing in alcohol and bio- production. The infrastructure should have been well underway by now, but what do we get?
...And I dont blame just Bush, its all those crooked bastages up there in that cess pool we call D.C." N0WVA

I don't personally think that this administration is heartless in terms of protecting the people from the threats that are out there, and there are threats out there, but I also don't disagree with you that much of this has to do with corporate gains and agendas that are more akin to protecting industries near and dear to this administration. It seems obvious to me that there is no question about it since this administration has a history of protecting the interests of industry and absolutely zero interest in trying to find alternatives that we should have been seeking out 20 or 30 years ago. You are correct, this administration isn't the only guilty party, they're just taking it to a new level of depravity and self interest.

"Most of the younger generation doesnt know or even care about the bill of rights. They dont care about the staples of our basic freedoms." N0WVA

I really, really hope that you're wrong, but from some of what I've seen people of all generations currently alive are largely distracted, uncaring, and uninterested until it's too late, and it's getting later all the time.

"In a simplified version, I think the threat to ERODE our FREEDOMS by AQ and Bin Laden types are a bigger threat to this country than the President of the United States." K6UEY

I would agree with that, the extremists that scream about Bush being a terrorist and so on simply don't know that nature of the threat that is out there. There is a real threat, and it is growing by virtue of our image in the eyes of the world based on some of the mis-steps of this administration and others.
That being said I don't think it has anything to do with the central issue of protecting our Constitution and it's intent. As KA8NCR wisely pointed out:
"Freedom has a price and if you're not willing to take ALL the risks, then you don't get freedom. It's an all or nothing proposition because once the government starts doling out your freedom, you're not really free.
Freedom does have a price and when we as a people allow a continual erosion of those rights without speaking out we condone these types of activities, our silence make us complicit. Changing our way of life for a sense of security that may or may not be there is not the solution, if we sacrifice our way of life, and our American values as gauranteed by the Constitution, then the enemies of America win a little more with each loss of freedom.

[KB9YCO]

Gonzales Says Criticism of NSA Misleading - suggested that some critics and news reports have misled Americans - AP article (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060124/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/gonzales_nsa)

[N0WVA]

"Freedom has a price and if you're not willing to take ALL the risks, then you don't get freedom. It's an all or nothing proposition because once the government starts doling out your freedom, you're not really free. "


"Freedom does have a price and when we as a people allow a continual erosion of those rights without speaking out we condone these types of activities, our silence make us complicit. Changing our way of life for a sense of security that may or may not be there is not the solution, if we sacrifice our way of life, and our American values as gauranteed by the Constitution, then the enemies of America win a little more with each loss of freedom."



Words to live by.....

[N0WVA]

Will the real Americans please stand up?


Gonzales speech (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-01-24-gonzalesnsa_x.htm?csp=24)

[kb2vxa]

All hail the New World Order! Hail Bush!