View Full Version : 9Th Circuit court strikes down cell tower ban
kd6uda
01-19-2006, 05:26 AM
Amateur radio tower placements have been affected by local government regulation. Aesthetic appearance can be one of the reasons applied to ham towers (or antennas) for restricting them or limiting size. The 9th circuit court makes what I believe is an important precedent for the amateur when deciding in favor of the cellular operator. Ruling Jan 18 , 2006 that aesthetic appearance can not be a valid reason for withholding a permit for construction of a cell phone tower. The difference here is that the Telecom Act language is in question. I wouldn't say this clears the way, but it's something to grab on to.
The following link of the court opinion (Sprint PCS vs La Canada-Flintridge) PDF document
http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9....element (http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/D0166213044EFCAC882570F9005E377F/$file/0555014.pdf?openelement)
KA8DKT
01-19-2006, 05:20 PM
I was listening on 20M this weekend and I heard a ham talking about his multi-element beam mounted on a 110 foot Douglas Fir tree.
What do you know...a natural tower!
-gary
KD6NIG
01-19-2006, 05:23 PM
Outside of Sacramento (well, downtown) on I-5 you can see one off to the left if you're heading north about 1 mile before the Bus80/50 interchange you'll see one thats supposed to look like a pine tree.
I say supposed to because, either the weather or the way it was made, only "ugly" would describe it. I would have understood if there were other trees in the area, but there aren't many really close, and it stands out more than a normal tower would....
I guess i should set about designing the 'Palmbander' for us desert dwellers.
n3sdo
01-19-2006, 05:40 PM
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif Palm Bander for Desert Dwellers?
I recall a design many years ago for multi band J-Poles they referred to as a copper cactus.
Why is every detail of my life put in on paper by some guy named Scott Adams?
N6BOA
01-19-2006, 05:49 PM
Let's face it...cells are a "necessary" way of life for most folks and ham, simply, is not.
I love the "pine tree" located in the Cleveland burn area up highway 50 near Ice House. It is the ONLY tree standing amongst thousands of dead and burned trees.
73 de N6BOA
WE had a fellow ham here in Corrales, New Mexico that wanted to put a tower up in front of a home that has big picture windows and spectacular views. The owner had built there for the views and spent a lot to bury utility lines. The ham got an attorney and, in general, made an ass of himself. (His installation was about 60 feet from the neighbor's) I was embarrassed for the poor ham; he made us all look like dolts.
There are places where a ham is out of line in demanding such "rights". They ran him out of town, for which I am glad. Now the town thnks that hams are tasteless jerks. Maybe they are right.
Quote[/b] (k5co @ Jan. 19 2006,10:50)]WE had a fellow ham here in Corrales, New Mexico that wanted to put a tower up in front of a home that has big picture windows and spectacular views. The owner had built there for the views and spent a lot to bury utility lines. The ham got an attorney and, in general, made an ass of himself. (His installation was about 60 feet from the neighbor's) I was embarrassed for the poor ham; he made us all look like dolts.
There are places where a ham is out of line in demanding such "rights". They ran him out of town, for which I am glad. Now the town thnks that hams are tasteless jerks. Maybe they are right.
The FCC has been reluctant to override covenants because it says you have a choice whether to live in an area with them or without them. Someone could make the argument that covenants and deed restrictions cannot prohibit antennas that cannot be seen from the street by a normal passer-by. This would allow disguised antennas, ground mounted verticals in back yards, wires hidden in trees, etc.
This does not detract from property values in any way. Just a thought.
Quote[/b] (AC7RG @ Jan. 19 2006,09:23)]There was a company out here that designed a cell tower that looked exactly like a cactus. It was very impressive. It was to be installed on a mountain that already had tons of this particular type of cactus. #I think they indicated that they were working on trees and other life-like cell towers. # #It's amazing what the human species can do if motivated. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
Yeah some species we are when we can`t even get along in the ham ranks... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Jan. 19 2006,07:16)]Quote[/b] (k5co @ Jan. 19 2006,10:50)]WE had a fellow ham here in Corrales, New Mexico that wanted to put a tower up in front of a home that has big picture windows and spectacular views. The owner had built there for the views and spent a lot to bury utility lines. The ham got an attorney and, in general, made an ass of himself. (His installation was about 60 feet from the neighbor's) I was embarrassed for the poor ham; he made us all look like dolts.
There are places where a ham is out of line in demanding such "rights". They ran him out of town, for which I am glad. Now the town thnks that hams are tasteless jerks. Maybe they are right.
The FCC has been reluctant to override covenants because it says you have a choice whether to live in an area with them or without them. #Someone could make the argument that covenants and deed restrictions cannot prohibit antennas that cannot be seen from the street by a normal passer-by. This would allow disguised antennas, ground mounted verticals in back yards, wires hidden in trees, etc.
This does not detract from property values in any way. #Just a thought.
Disguised antennas? #Yeah sure. I got your disguised antenna.
The old lady living in the next lot, called the cops on me one day because I was stringing my "disguised" wires through the trees (160m dipole). #I guess hanging a 1kva transformer on one end about 4 feet in the air to keep the line tight didn't help. #She said she thought I was some kind of terrorist. #Anyway, I wound up telling the cop he had no jurisdication in the matter since I am licensed by the Feds. #He arrested me but only after clubing me to the ground with the butt of his sidearm. #He stated I took a swing at him. #
I fought back and in the pitched battle, my dipole came down and the flashlight I had in my hand broke on the cops head.
This is where it gets funny. #The 1kva transformer fell the 4 feet onto the old ladies foot and broke it. #The cop called for assistance and medical help. #Additional cops arrived and started to kick me while I was laying handcuffed on the ground. #I was briefly jailed before my wife bailed me out. #She came close to being arrested herself for obstruction after a string of obscenities and taking a few swipes at the cops.
I sued the town for damages, sued the cop in civil court, the old lady passed away, and I now own her house and have retired comfortably on non-taxable income from the lawsuit. #Put up a 120' tower. #Oh, the cop was fired and I got divorced. #Life is good, live it to the fullest.
K2WH
Quote[/b] (k5co @ Jan. 19 2006,10:50)]WE had a fellow ham here in Corrales, New Mexico that wanted to put a tower up in front of a home that has big picture windows and spectacular views. The owner had built there for the views and spent a lot to bury utility lines. The ham got an attorney and, in general, made an ass of himself. (His installation was about 60 feet from the neighbor's) I was embarrassed for the poor ham; he made us all look like dolts.
There are places where a ham is out of line in demanding such "rights". They ran him out of town, for which I am glad. Now the town thnks that hams are tasteless jerks. Maybe they are right.
Robert (K5CO), I wonder if you might know my friend Mike Swaim, K5NMX who lives in Rio Rancho, NM?
Regrettably, this decision doesn't provide much in the way of support for amateur radio.
If you read through the decision carefully, it seems that the ruling was based upon California law, not Federal law. The towers in question were to be located in a public right of way (read that as a road, sidewalk, alleyway, etc.), not on any private property. The ruling determined that California law says a telecommunications company can not be prohibited from the installation of communications equipment or wiring in a public right of way as long as the installation does not render the right of way unusable.
There were also comments as to the evidentiary requirements that must be met to rule something 'unsightly'. Surprisingly, it was the City that was citing the Telecommunications Act to ban the Sprint installation.
The bottom line, this case did nothing to test the Federal law. The decision was based upon California law first and was reversed on that basis.
I'm sure other, trained, legal minds would be able to provide a more detailed explanation, but to me, reading the decision it is clear this does nothing to help hams nationwide.
73,
Moe Knight
May want to look at this one a little closer. Wasn't the cell tower in question being camoflaug to better fit into the settings and the bone heads still wanted to disapproved. In this case the cell company was trying to make reasonable accomidations -- at significant expense to them.
Wouldn't take this as a go to set up a 200 foot multi-beam yagi in an area that has clear restrictions.
KD7ZOS
01-19-2006, 11:03 PM
Man, thats a helluva story, impossible to top that one! :-) However since I've been in Law Enforcement for over 40 years, I'm sorry that you were assulted, and insulted by a rogue cop. Glad he got his, That is a insult to our profession. Stay Safe, God Bless...Tom KD7ZOS
kf4lne
01-19-2006, 11:15 PM
Somehow I just don't see that story about the cop and the lawsuit being accurate...
K7JBQ
01-19-2006, 11:52 PM
Quote[/b] (kf4lne @ Jan. 19 2006,16:15)]Somehow I just don't see that story about the cop and the lawsuit being accurate...
Who cares? It's funny.
If it isn't accurate, it ought to be.
73,
Bill
Come on, folks. We all know it takes the ARRL to *test* Federal Regulations. And, the DX lobby (prolific contributors) doesn't want more competition, so the best way to challenge CC&Rs is to buy Congressmen a lunch with a photo op.
Not quite what Jack Abramoff would do, though.
KG8FV
01-20-2006, 01:42 AM
The heck with cell towers!.. I've tried to get my repeater on a Nextel tower. and they told me Public service and pagers or wireless cell stuff. No Amateur Radio serive. I thought we were a public service.:blues:
Quote[/b] (KG8FV @ Jan. 19 2006,18:42)]The heck with cell towers!.. I've tried to get my repeater on a Nextel tower. and they told me Public service and pagers or wireless cell stuff. No Amateur Radio serive. #I thought we were a public service.:blues:
We ARE public service. Go back to them with a copy of the regs.
I bought a hilltop, with no restrictions, and 2 wooded acres. You can't even see the tower from the street. Works great, and it's for sale.........
When I finally had saved enough money to buy my 'little place in the country', BEFORE I bought the land, I made SURE there were NO restrictions on anything as mundane as a radio tower. #My friend, K9GBO and I bought a 50 acre parcel, then sub-divided it. #When I filed with the county the subdivison papers, I got to choose the name of the subdivison--which is now known as "Tower Heights", and (more of a joke than anything else) in my subdivison (self-imposed) restrictions, anyone #building in the subdivision MUST erect a tower NO LESS than 100 feet in height. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Jan. 19 2006,12:27)]
The old lady living in the next lot, called the cops on me one day because I was stringing my "disguised" wires through the trees (160m dipole). #I guess hanging a 1kva transformer on one end about 4 feet in the air to keep the line tight didn't help. #She said she thought I was some kind of terrorist. #Anyway, I wound up telling the cop he had no jurisdication in the matter since I am licensed by the Feds. #He arrested me but only after clubing me to the ground with the butt of his sidearm. #He stated I took a swing at him. #
I fought back and in the pitched battle, my dipole came down and the flashlight I had in my hand broke on the cops head.
This is where it gets funny. #The 1kva transformer fell the 4 feet onto the old ladies foot and broke it. #The cop called for assistance and medical help. #Additional cops arrived and started to kick me while I was laying handcuffed on the ground. #I was briefly jailed before my wife bailed me out. #She came close to being arrested herself for obstruction after a string of obscenities and taking a few swipes at the cops.
I sued the town for damages, sued the cop in civil court, the old lady passed away, and I now own her house and have retired comfortably on non-taxable income from the lawsuit. #Put up a 120' tower. #Oh, the cop was fired and I got divorced. #Life is good, live it to the fullest.
K2WH[/b]
sound like the city here
the cops beat you
send you in and then lie about it.
The city here does not want any towers.
<span style='color:red'>I was told by the ARRL that I would get help if I had proublems.
Called the ARRL and they told me who the volunteer in the state of IOWA was to talk to.
So I got ahold of the ARRL #volunteer in IOWA and they said
they were to busy to help, but #IF I WAS TO PAY THEM THEY MAY BE ABLE TO #HELP.</span>
so I AM not a ARRL MEMBER ANY MORE
ARRL LIED they do not need my money.
<span style='color:blue'>ARRL members are to be volunteer's
I though they were not get payed</span>
in the dictionary it says a volunteer is
<span style='color:red'>volunteer >noun #1 a person who freely offers to do something. #2 a person who works for an organization without being paid. #3 a person who freely enrolls for military service rather than being conscripted. >verb #1 freely offer to do something. #2 say or suggest something without being asked.</span>
<u>
DO not see anything about getting payed!!!</u>
<span style='color:BLUE'>-------------------------------------------------------------------
GLAD NOT TO BE AN ARRL MEMBER AND NEVER WILL AGAIN.</span>
Re K9AF and Tower Heights ------- now THAT is my kind of subdivision!!!
Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Jan. 19 2006,11:16)]The FCC has been reluctant to override covenants because it says you have a choice whether to live in an area with them or without them.
True, you DO have a choice; nobody is forcing you to buy a home in a restricted neighborhood. But good luck in finding a home in a new or recent housing development that you'd actually WANT to live in which doesn't have covenants or deed restrictions prohibiting outside antennas. # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Quote[/b] ]When I finally had saved enough money to buy my 'little place in the country', BEFORE I bought the land, I made SURE there were NO restrictions on anything as mundane as a radio tower. My friend, K9GBO and I bought a 50 acre parcel, then sub-divided it. When I filed with the county the subdivison papers, I got to choose the name of the subdivison--which is now known as "Tower Heights", and (more of a joke than anything else) in my subdivison (self-imposed) restrictions, anyone building in the subdivision MUST erect a tower NO LESS than 100 feet in height.
I wanna live there!!!!
kf4jqd
01-20-2006, 04:25 PM
Finally, The 9th "Circus" Court has done something right!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
KD6NIG
01-20-2006, 06:56 PM
Quote[/b] (kf4jqd @ Jan. 20 2006,09:25)]Finally, The 9th "Circus" Court has done something right!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Yep, they have given you all the false hope that all of those covenants YOU SIGNED OFF ON, all of those RESTRICTIONS YOU AGREED TO when you purchased your property are going to suddenly go away.....
Sheya right!
NE4ME
01-20-2006, 07:53 PM
The unfortunate thing about where I live is that every neighborhood that I can recall built in the last 10 years has restrictions. Some nice neighborhoods and some cracker box neighborhoods where the concrete base would be more expensive than the house. Around here, you have to either build in a rural area or buy in a neighborhood atleast 20 years old, or if you are lucky, you can find a vacant lot in an older neighborhood and build. It's difficult to have it all....A city lot with low QRM almost impossible, a spot in the country and then your kids have no neighborhood kids to play with when young, etc...Just like it's difficult to find an energy efficient older home....Or maybe finding the ultimate 4x4...You just can't have it all....It's my own opinion (that's all I own), but my thoughts are that no one ought to be able to tell you what you can or can't do on your own property unless a law is being broken. Property ought not be sold and then the former owner or any HOA be able to tell you what to do or not to do with it. My wife and I finally found a home with no restrictions in a decent 1960's hilltop neighborhood. Now another child is on the way and I need more room. Time to filter through all the 1980's to early 90's homes in my price range because noting built recently will work due to restrictions. Ok, now I just got a call here at 911 (where I work) concerning a person who just bought a house in a neighborhood in the county with restrictions. The dang neighbor is leaving him nasty notes on his mailbox because he left his garbage can at the end of the driveway 1 extra day for 2 weeks straight. Nosy neighbors..grrrrrrrr
K4KWH
01-20-2006, 09:45 PM
I am VERY touchy about this issue because I, too, feel that your "rights" to tell ME what I can do on my own property end at the property line. IOW, mind your own business and don't worry about what I do, and I won't worry about what you do. #So long as I don't become a public nuisance, leave junked cars up on jacks, let the property become junky or rundown, you keep your durn nose out of my business. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Thus, I researched my choice of homes #back in the 80's, selected it for the lack of restrictions on radio antennas and towers, and here is where I plan to stay. Luckily, my city has the foresight and good sense to keep restrictions at a minimum, preferring to allow citizens to pretty much do their own thing. People mostly will take care of their own property, and peer pressure and economic factors determines how 'nice' a neighborhood is.
I *do* have a next door neighbor that can be a bit of a pain at times, but it has nothing to do with my antennas. So far no one new has moved in and then started demanding that I take my antennas down. When he does that, he "might" get smacked and I'll have to go to jail! LOL!
73
N2NVH
01-20-2006, 10:54 PM
Here in upstate New York we refer to those "disguised" cell towers as "Franken-pines."
N6OHS
01-20-2006, 11:48 PM
Here in San Diego, CA I live in a house built in 1968 and it has severe restrictions.
There are NO areas close to town that have NO restrictions. If you're lucky, you can find a place where they are not enforced, but putting up a tower is too costly to risk being sued later.
In the city of San Diego, there are some areas where there are no CCRs, but you still need a permit and they are trying to restrict new ones.
So, I'd be in favor ot overriding CCRs by FCC and congress. I wonldn't put up a 100 foor tower, but I'd #like to get my antennas out of the attic.
73 de Mike N6OHS
Quote[/b] (KD6NIG @ Jan. 20 2006,11:56)]Yep, they have given you all the false hope that all of those covenants YOU SIGNED OFF ON, all of those RESTRICTIONS YOU AGREED TO when you purchased your property are going to suddenly go away.....
Sheya right!
Only technically did you agree to them. Many times people never see them, and sometimes it's like pulling teeth just to find out what they are.
Hi Everyone,
I think this ruling could potentially help amateurs in their pursuit of successful tower permits. Currently the town I am moving to (in Southern New Jersey) has given me a stack of regulations for commercial telecommunications towers, since they don't have a special category dealing with non-commercial towers. Being able to cite a successful appeal at a planning board meeting could be a powerful tool in achieving a positive result. I'm keeping a copy for myself for when the meeting is scheduled.
Also, in my case, the commercial regulations allow for towers up to 200ft. I'm asking for 150ft and 130ft, so I'm hoping the lower height relative to the higher commercial limit will also work in my favor.
73 Darrell AB2E
Quote[/b] (KD6NIG @ Jan. 19 2006,14:56)]Quote[/b] (kf4jqd @ Jan. 20 2006,09:25)]Finally, The 9th "Circus" Court has done something right!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Yep, they have given you all the false hope that all of those covenants YOU SIGNED OFF ON, all of those RESTRICTIONS YOU AGREED TO when you purchased your property are going to suddenly go away.....
Sheya right!
Did you agree when YOU signed YOUR escrow papers that the government has a right to take your property under Eminent Domain for any use that can produce more tax revenue for your local government?
I sure didn't. And the SUUUUUUPREME Court now says that local governments have that right.
So, is it truly beyond belief that Courts couldn't pre-empt CC&Rs? No. Especially since the FCC itself already has.
Read 47CFR1.4000, referred to as the OTARD regulation carefully. It trashes CC&Rs for broadcast, satellite and internet antennas. But, of course, carefully says our antennas are not in the same category.
73,
BTW, the ARRL LOVES CC&Rs. They keep the "I've got my DXCC" crowd (and you can't get yours) happy.
Lee
W6EM
N9JOE
01-21-2006, 02:48 PM
IT'S A START. AS FAR AS RESTRICTIONS GO, IN OUR "MANUFACTURED HOME" COMMUNITY, WE WEREN'T ALLOWED ANY TYPE OF AERIAL. I MENTIONED TO THE OWNERS ABOUT PUBLIC SERVICE AND FEDERAL LAWS. HE THEN LET ME PUT UP A VERTICAL. IT WAS ALSO PAINTED TO MATCH TREES AND SKY. NO PROBLEMS I HAVE SINCE PUT UP A 144/440, ALSO SUITABLY CAMOFLAGED. WORK WITHIN THE LAW AND USE COMMON SENSE. SOMETIMES A LITTLE WELL LUBRICATED B.S. HELPS. ALWATS TRY TO BE FRIENDS WITH YOUR NIEGHBORS. LET THEM KNOW WHAT YOUR DOING MIGHT SAVE THEIR LIVES. DON
Quote[/b] (w6em @ Jan. 21 2006,07:13)]Did you agree when YOU signed YOUR escrow papers that the government has a right to take your property under Eminent Domain for any use that can produce more tax revenue for your local government?
I sure didn't. #And the SUUUUUUPREME Court now says that local governments have that right.
Yep. and it was interesting that here the local (Gannett) newspaper said "that would never happen here" right after it DID happen here right on Main Street, less than a block from that same newspaper's office!!! So much of freedom of information!!
w4rah
01-21-2006, 10:38 PM
I use to live in a development that had covenants. For nearly 2 years I had a Hi-gain vertical in the back of the house until one day the Association Nazi's saw it (it took them two years) I offered to take it down and put up a TV antenna on the roof instead (log periodic type) - they said that only Sat dishes (DSS) were allowed - when I showed them the law about over the air reception - they agreed to let me keep my vertical instead as long as I removed it when I moved.
Now I live in the country - and the neighbors just mooo or whinney - no problems with my antennas.....
73,
W4RAH
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
kc6vvt
01-22-2006, 01:12 AM
Quote[/b] (n2nvh @ Jan. 20 2006,15:54)]Here in upstate New York we refer to those "disguised" cell towers as "Franken-pines."
Good one, and aptly conveys the stupid effect of disguising these communication towers to appease the "Not In My Back Yard" #or NIMBY transplanted urban dwellers tethered to the TV cable and the utility grid.
Some time past, I recall a cell tower contructed in the San Diego area, and later "palmed it" off as a tree.The joke circulated about that particular network tower was that this tower was retrofitted to appear as a #"palmNETto" tree to appease the NIMBY neighborhood tireless complainer.
Now, the local county in Illinois (where I am now retired) is proposing a county wide zoning code to limit all "non-commercial" towers to 50 feet. Of course, you can appeal THAT with a full zoning hearing. Never mind that a decent TV tower has to be at least 75 feet to capture even the large area TV stations in surrounding cities.
My ancestoral grandparents settled out on this vast prairie in 1835, and were among the first #to use windmills to pump water. The machine shed next to the windmill used the same wind powered source for powering the home built machine shop with leather belt drives. Recall slipping the drive belt on the shaft for whatever machine was to be used, or shifting the former tractor transmission for the right RPM, using a brake and sans clutch. Even the up down motion of the bellows for the forge and saw blade hacksaw derived from the rotary shaft around three walls of the ship, each side ending with a shaft-end wheel. Later on the wind powered rotary shaft regulated by the stone flywheels (grinding stone and miller) could be switched to a steam "donkey" engine which replaced PTO taken by belt from a steam thresher engine. Finally, the large electric motor was added after rural electrification to the main drive, but any power device could be used. Amazing to recall and still grateful to an uncle who demonstrated the marvelous machines of my youth, and also the magic of radio. Both were learned from "Grandpa Tink", so named for his tinkering ability. His inate ability to devise a machine for his use converted from his old farm machinery or automobiles were family legend.
So ironically, this same prairie county has also espoused a $2,000 @ year fee for EACH new commericial electric windmill/tower out here on the prairie, 100 miles from energy hungry Chicago. This also guarantees self sufficiency is unattainable for the homeowner, as there are currently no fees taxed for home or co-generation. The real reason?
I note the objectionable, yet beautiful "vertical" acreage along two glacial ridges, one in each neighboring county, that are already producing altenrate energy for several commercial fims using clusters of many new generation windmills. One such remarkable windfarm can be seen easily opposite a state rest stop on I-39, and the other in the distance off I-80 here in North Central Illinois. Shades of the CA Cajon pass. NIMBY again, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
And meanwhile, the lawyers and lobby for the "local" nuclear power plant just shaved millions of dollars off their annual property tax bill, AFTER the new County megaplex and new County jail were built from future revenues based on those former and most dependable tax bonanzas.
Tower? I haven't put up any monstrous antenna tower or even a windmill, yet. I will prefer to use the amateur bands that are open by following the MUF and grayline, anything to avoid the DX pileups. So far have been content with the two band 75M and 40M wire ladder line dipoles, using NVIS propagation for the statewide net. #The tri-band yagi still rests, unassembled, in the garage next to the multiband vertical, until needed later on in the next rise in the solar cycle. Good DX until then.
vy 73 de Pat KC6VVT
roflmao @ K2WH. I enjoyed that! :>)
K7SU
w8vho
01-22-2006, 01:50 PM
PEOPLE REMEMBER THIS PLEASE, THE GOVERNMENT WORKS FOR YOU!! Instead of every ham in the United States writing to every government offical saying that either i get to put up a tower or you dont get my VOTE, the next time!!!!(no vote no money) we say" OH well i use a tree or disguise my ant!!" Come on America, STAND UP and FIGHT! THIS VOTE thing works for all other complaints to...
Lets organize, stick together, stand up for one another!!!THIS takes a little dedication and time, but it will be worth it!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
k6pme
01-22-2006, 03:02 PM
Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Jan. 20 2006,19:21)]Quote[/b] (KD6NIG @ Jan. 20 2006,11:56)]Yep, they have given you all the false hope that all of those covenants YOU SIGNED OFF ON, all of those RESTRICTIONS YOU AGREED TO when you purchased your property are going to suddenly go away.....
Sheya right!
Only technically did you agree to them. #Many times people never see them, and sometimes it's like pulling teeth just to find out what they are.
Where I live it's all on the whim of who is in charge that year.
Quote[/b] (KG6QQL @ Jan. 22 2006,08:02)]Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Jan. 20 2006,19:21)]Quote[/b] (KD6NIG @ Jan. 20 2006,11:56)]Yep, they have given you all the false hope that all of those covenants YOU SIGNED OFF ON, all of those RESTRICTIONS YOU AGREED TO when you purchased your property are going to suddenly go away.....
Sheya right!
Only technically did you agree to them. #Many times people never see them, and sometimes it's like pulling teeth just to find out what they are.
Where I live it's all on the whim of who is in charge that year.
That's true, too. I see that here.
KD6NIG
01-22-2006, 05:19 PM
Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Jan. 20 2006,19:21)]Quote[/b] (KD6NIG @ Jan. 20 2006,11:56)]Yep, they have given you all the false hope that all of those covenants YOU SIGNED OFF ON, all of those RESTRICTIONS YOU AGREED TO when you purchased your property are going to suddenly go away.....
Sheya right!
Only technically did you agree to them. #Many times people never see them, and sometimes it's like pulling teeth just to find out what they are.
Right, and in a court of law, the attorney for the other side will only have 2 questions:
1) Did you review the documents you were presented before you signed them as a binding contract?
2) And is this signature on the binding contract yours?
Thank you your honor, no further questions.
You'd be surprised to find what people insert into those documents, and in the 'heat of the moment' we just sign them. #One of these days I expect to read a contract and find out they will be taking a pint of blood from you quarterly.
I mean, yes, we do have the right to complain that such restrictions are placed on property nowadays. #But this ruling only helps sprint, who had the time, money, and patience to fight this. #We don't have those kind of resources so to fight is fruitless when you signed and agreed. The time to ask for a change would have been before you signed, but most won't budge, so you're just stuck.
Someone who is loaded needs to buy a nice tract out in the country, set CC&R's that require towers like someone said, and....well, that won't work, we'll just interfere with each other http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
For now, since in my area everyone still has TV antennas on thier roofs (most probably not in use, and some definetely in disrepair, one down the street broke in the middle of the pole and the antenna is now on the roof, and nobody cares) I can get away with a few antennas. #When asked, I tell them they are TV antennas and this suffices. #Plus, if I was told to take them down, you can bet the guy down the street with the broken one would be removing his also. #Code enforcement is annoying, but when they tell me to do something but the neighbor still had the 5 broken down cars in his yard, a quick call to the city asking about thier discrimination practices resulted in me not having to do much, either.
One thing that is nice about such things is that they DO have to enforce it, across the board. #You neighbor might complain about your dipole, but you'll be surprised how silent they can be if they have something in thier yard against code too. #
Most of them seem to back off pretty quickly when you point out "deficiencies" in thier yards too.
I had no problem redoing the fence in my yard when the code enforcement guy finally got the junk cars off the curb down the street http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I dont see the point of this thread....its about cell phone towers, not
amateur radio....
Quote[/b] (w8vho @ Jan. 21 2006,09:50)]PEOPLE REMEMBER THIS PLEASE, THE GOVERNMENT WORKS FOR YOU!! #Instead of every ham in the United States writing to every government offical saying that either i get to put up a tower or you dont get my VOTE, the next time!!!!(no vote no money) we say" OH well i use a tree or disguise my ant!!" #Come on America, STAND UP and FIGHT! THIS VOTE thing works for all other complaints to...
Lets organize, stick together, stand up for one another!!!THIS takes a little dedication and time, but it will be worth it!! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Organize? #Gosh, thought that was what the ARRL was supposed to be. #An organization for amateur radio. #Yes, in fact its called the National Association for Amateur Radio.
(Yet, they don't seem to accomplish much with respect to CC&Rs)
Ask that COO of theirs why he didn't mention CC&Rs as impediments to the future of amateur radio when standing in front of the very Congressional Subcommittee that sat-on and killed the two prior CC&R Bills.
Lee
W6EM
n9woy
01-23-2006, 03:25 PM
In reference to the comment earlier to restrictions and covenenats.
It seems to me that the FCC should strike down cc&r's because there are many unscrupulous developers that "forget" to inform new homeowners that there are cc&r's in the first place. Also it seems that a few are trying to regulate the lives of many.
Is this democracy or dictatorship?
These newer sub-divisions with overly restrictive covenents. in a word, SUCK!
LARRY
N9WOY
W9WHE
01-23-2006, 08:39 PM
2 key reasons why you should not get overly excited over this CALIFORNIA ruling:
#1 In California, telecom providers were granted a right, by the California legislature, to erect and maintain telecom systems, hams have NOT been granted any such right.
#2 Local gov't findings are entitled to substantial deference, meaning this decision only required that the local gov't have some evidence. More then a scintilla, but LESS then a preponderance. TRANSLATION: More then 1% convincing, but less then 51%, so just about any reasonable reason will fly IF it is backed up by objective evidence of damage to astetics. Just because one municipality screwed up, does not mean others will not do a good job of "bucking up" their opinons with testimony from real estste apprasers, archetechts and developers.
W9WHE
W9WHE
01-23-2006, 08:42 PM
N9WOY WRITES:
"It seems to me that the FCC should strike down cc&r's because there are many unscrupulous developers that "forget" to inform new homeowners that there are cc&r's in the first place"
Its not the developers job to tell you about the covenants. They are recorded with the local recorder of deeds office. They are a matter of public record. Its YOUR responsibillity to find out about them. All you need do is ASK your realitor or the devoloper, and they will GLADLY give you a copy!
W9WHE
W9WHE
01-23-2006, 08:44 PM
KD6NIG writes:
Right, and in a court of law, the attorney for the other side will only have 2 questions..............."
Actually, there is only one question:
"were the covenants on file with the recorder of deeds on the day you took title?
Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Jan. 22 2006,16:42)]Its not the developers job to tell you about the covenants. They are recorded with the local recorder of deeds office. They are a matter of public record. Its YOUR responsibillity to find out about them. All you need do is ASK your realitor or the devoloper, and they will GLADLY give you a copy!
W9WHE
Not always true, Jonathan.
In Florida, for example, the seller MUST, by statute, provide the buyer with CC&Rs at or before closing of escrow.
Developers or RE agents gladly will give you a copy? Nah. Only if they're forced to. After all, they don't want to scare you away. If you see a sign "Deed Restricted Community" at the subdivision entrance, you can be sure the Apparatchiks abound (to tell you what you can and can't do with, on, or to your property).
Just for fun, ask the RE agent how many times the HOA has liened homeowner parcels or filed suit in local courts before you buy.
Happy Trails,
Lee
W6EM
N0LAP
01-23-2006, 10:13 PM
There is a God!
Quote[/b] (w6em @ Jan. 23 2006,14:54)]the seller MUST, by statute, provide the buyer with CC&Rs at or before closing of escrow.
Developers or RE agents gladly will give you a copy? #Nah. #Only if they're forced to. #
And, quite often, they will refuse to give them to you until the day of closing. That is legal and makes sure that you do not have time to read them (or as you really should do, have your lawyer read them).
All,
I once worked for private security patrol in a HOA community. It was my personal habit to stop and introduce myself(and the department) to anyone moving into the community. Many ,and definitely the majority, thought I was offering a sales pitch for security service as the realtor had not advised them of the HOA dues and restrictions.Some were totally unaware it was anything other than a new "subdivion". Only after ,sometimes long after, did they find themselves being cited for such offenses as unapproved flower beds and find they were not permitted in the community parks and lakes if the dues were not current.
I suspect many men left it up to the wife to find a place and the resident real estate agents/developers just never thought to mention all the rules. I found out one DOES NOT offer even mild criticism of the agent/builder/developer in such cases. No longer work there.
K4KWH
01-24-2006, 03:10 AM
Back last year, some of the HOA's got so out of hand that the state of NC put some restrictions on liens. They were trying to foreclose homes for such things as the "wrong" color or style of door you put on your home, or non-payment of dues (which, in one case was because of a dispute over their rules.) It also resulted in some shouting matches and one HOA snoot getting his fanny kicked!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif #He actually got knocked to the ground with a haymaker right cross! Down for the count! LOL! The NC HOA's--particularly the ones in Charlotte--were warned that if they didn't settle down, there would be MORE restrictions placed upon them. I LOVE it!!!!!!!!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #The H-- with HOA'S!
K7BEN
01-24-2006, 05:27 AM
Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Jan. 19 2006,12:27)]Disguised antennas? #Yeah sure. #I got your disguised antenna.
The old lady living in the next lot, called the cops on me one day because I was stringing my "disguised" wires through the trees (160m dipole). #I guess hanging a 1kva transformer on one end about 4 feet in the air to keep the line tight didn't help. #She said she thought I was some kind of terrorist. #Anyway, I wound up telling the cop he had no jurisdication in the matter since I am licensed by the Feds. #He arrested me but only after clubing me to the ground with the butt of his sidearm. #He stated I took a swing at him. #
I fought back and in the pitched battle, my dipole came down and the flashlight I had in my hand broke on the cops head.
This is where it gets funny. #The 1kva transformer fell the 4 feet onto the old ladies foot and broke it. #The cop called for assistance and medical help. #Additional cops arrived and started to kick me while I was laying handcuffed on the ground. #I was briefly jailed before my wife bailed me out. #She came close to being arrested herself for obstruction after a string of obscenities and taking a few swipes at the cops.
I sued the town for damages, sued the cop in civil court, the old lady passed away, and I now own her house and have retired comfortably on non-taxable income from the lawsuit. #Put up a 120' tower. #Oh, the cop was fired and I got divorced. #Life is good, live it to the fullest.
K2WH[/b]
Wish I had been there to take a swing on you. It sounds like you are a lawsuit happy #######. Thanks for making hams look like jerks. I'm sure that if you had calmly discussed with the police about what you were doing then you could have come to some kind of agreement without you having to get your ass beat and without you having to sue people. I know your kind all to well and you are an embarrassment to hams.
K7BEN
01-24-2006, 05:29 AM
Quote[/b] (kf4lne @ Jan. 19 2006,16:15)]Somehow I just don't see that story about the cop and the lawsuit being accurate...
I agree!
W9WHE
01-24-2006, 03:42 PM
W9WHE (real lawyer) wrote:
"They [the covenants] are recorded with the local recorder of deeds office. They are a matter of public record. Its YOUR responsibillity to find out about them"
W6EM (a non-lawyer) then wrote:
"Not allways true, Jonathan".
Lee, here we go again. If you buy a validly restricted property, you must live with the restrictions, so long as the restrictions are a matter of public record. When such restrictions are on file with the recorder's office, ALL BUYERS are charged by the law with "CONSTRUCTIVE NOTICE", because they are a matter of public record. Even if you NEVER saw them, under "constructive notice" you are charged by the law with knowlege of them because the act of recording serves to put the world on notice. You have an obligation to use reasonable care to investigate and know what the heck it is you are buying.
If you don't believe it, ask any of the THOUSANDS #of hams that have tried to avoid such covenants with the excuse "I did not know", or the "developer or real estate agent did not tell me" #and see how well that excuse has worked for them in court or anywhere else.
If the restrictions are a matter of public record, it is YOUR OBLIGATION to follow them WHETHER OR NOT YOU EVER SAW THEM.
Now if a state has a statute requiring disclosure prior to closing, and the seller fails to deliver, you think you can avoid the otherwise valid restrictions? NOPE! WRONG AGAIN. You might have an action against the seller, BUT YOU WILL BE BOUND TO ABIDE BY THE RESTRICTIONS BECAUSE THEY WERE A MATTER OF PUBLIC RECORD AND YOU WERE CHARGED WITH CONSTRUCTIVE NOTICE EVEN IF YOU NEVER SAW THEM, EVEN IF THE SELLER WAS REQUIRED TO GIVE THEM TO BUT DID NOT.
CONCLUSION: Sorry Lee, but IT IS your obligation to check the public records for restrictive covenants, because in the end, YOU WILL BE BOUND BY THEM NO MATTER WHAT WHINEY, NAMBY PAMBY, BOGUS EXCUSE YOU CAN MUSTER. EXCUSES LIKE "I DID NOT KNOW" OR "SO-AND-SO NEVER TOLD ME" ARE JUST NOT GOING TO GET YOU OUT OF RECORDED RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS.
There is a latin phrase that comes to mind:
"Caveat Emptor"
(let the buyer be ware)
W9WHE
I wonder how the 9th circuit got the idea that antenna towers were somehow unAmerican. They are and evil bunch and have never supported anything good.
KD6NIG
01-24-2006, 04:20 PM
It could very well be the 9th circuit approved the tower simply because they were sick of thier sprint phones not working in the area also.
I guess if you want a tower in a restricted area, you COULD ask sprint to build one in your backyard, with the agreement that you have antenna rights on it. Let them fight the good fight to get it approved, and there you go.
But depending on the size of your backyard, you may not have any backyard left when they are done....
W9WHE
01-25-2006, 03:12 PM
KD6NIG wrote:
"It could very well be the 9th circuit approved the tower simply because they were sick of thier sprint phones not working in the area...".
BING!
W9WHE
Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Jan. 23 2006,11:42)]W9WHE (real lawyer) wrote:
"They [the covenants] are recorded with the local recorder of deeds office. They are a matter of public record. Its YOUR responsibillity to find out about them"
W6EM (a non-lawyer) then wrote:
"Not allways true, Jonathan".
Lee, here we go again. If you buy a validly restricted property, you must live with the restrictions, so long as the restrictions are a matter of public record. When such restrictions are on file with the recorder's office, ALL BUYERS are charged by the law with "CONSTRUCTIVE NOTICE", because they are a matter of public record. Even if you NEVER saw them, under "constructive notice" you are charged by the law with knowlege of them because the act of recording serves to put the world on notice. You have an obligation to use reasonable care to investigate and know what the heck it is you are buying.
If you don't believe it, ask any of the THOUSANDS #of hams that have tried to avoid such covenants with the excuse "I did not know", or the "developer or real estate agent did not tell me" #and see how well that excuse has worked for them in court or anywhere else.
If the restrictions are a matter of public record, it is YOUR OBLIGATION to follow them WHETHER OR NOT YOU EVER SAW THEM.
Now if a state has a statute requiring disclosure prior to closing, and the seller fails to deliver, you think you can avoid the otherwise valid restrictions? NOPE! WRONG AGAIN. You might have an action against the seller, BUT YOU WILL BE BOUND TO ABIDE BY THE RESTRICTIONS BECAUSE THEY WERE A MATTER OF PUBLIC RECORD AND YOU WERE CHARGED WITH CONSTRUCTIVE NOTICE EVEN IF YOU NEVER SAW THEM, EVEN IF THE SELLER WAS REQUIRED TO GIVE THEM TO BUT DID NOT.
CONCLUSION: Sorry Lee, but IT IS your obligation to check the public records for restrictive covenants, because in the end, YOU WILL BE BOUND BY THEM NO MATTER WHAT WHINEY, NAMBY PAMBY, BOGUS EXCUSE YOU CAN MUSTER. EXCUSES LIKE "I DID NOT KNOW" OR "SO-AND-SO NEVER TOLD ME" ARE JUST NOT GOING TO GET YOU OUT OF RECORDED RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS.
There is a latin phrase that comes to mind:
"Caveat Emptor"
(let the buyer be ware)
W9WHE
Why all the blather, Jonathan? #Did I say that we hams could escape CC&Rs by not knowing about them prior to signing on the dotted line? #Nope.
With all your shouting, perhaps you should lobby Dubyah to put you on the 9th Circus. #Yes, not something I'm qualified for. #All of your red light and siren expertise might be useful.
You slightly touched on the basis for my remark, which was to just say that in FL, there MAY be some remedies if the developer doesn't present them properly. #And, yes, you point out that maybe the developer or RE agent could be hauled into court. #Yes. #And, as a violation of a state law, that sounds like a crime to me. #You know, crime and punishment? Where the aggrieved party goes to the state attorney and presses charges?
Actually getting a developer between a rock and a hard place could be fun. #Especially if the development is still not completely sold out and still in control of the association. #During that period, our developer was permitted to change those documents any six ways from Sunday to whatever he wanted. #Yes, if he were going to be publicly toasted, I'd be willing to bet that the antenna-restrictive clause might just get softened during pre-trial negotiations. #You know. #Your old professional phrase quid pro quo
Lee
W6EM
kg6nie
01-26-2006, 02:29 AM
73
wa2yne
01-26-2006, 02:38 AM
Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Jan. 19 2006,12:27)][quote=AG4YO,Jan. 19 2006,07:16]
Disguised antennas? #Yeah sure. #I got your disguised antenna.
The old lady living in the next lot, called the cops on me one day because I was stringing my "disguised" wires through the trees (160m dipole). #I guess hanging a 1kva transformer on one end about 4 feet in the air to keep the line tight didn't help. #She said she thought I was some kind of terrorist. #Anyway, I wound up telling the cop he had no jurisdication in the matter since I am licensed by the Feds. #He arrested me but only after clubing me to the ground with the butt of his sidearm. #He stated I took a swing at him. #
I fought back and in the pitched battle, my dipole came down and the flashlight I had in my hand broke on the cops head.
This is where it gets funny. #The 1kva transformer fell the 4 feet onto the old ladies foot and broke it. #The cop called for assistance and medical help. #Additional cops arrived and started to kick me while I was laying handcuffed on the ground. #I was briefly jailed before my wife bailed me out. #She came close to being arrested herself for obstruction after a string of obscenities and taking a few swipes at the cops.
I sued the town for damages, sued the cop in civil court, the old lady passed away, and I now own her house and have retired comfortably on non-taxable income from the lawsuit. #Put up a 120' tower. #Oh, the cop was fired and I got divorced. #Life is good, live it to the fullest.
K2WH
Uhm, sounds like you have some stupid LEO's in your area. I have run across a few that thought they knew the law, when they did not.
One tried to tell me that I _had_ to give someone a refund, when in fact I did not have to.
Never had any antenna problems though...
Wayne WA2YNE
kg6nie
01-26-2006, 02:41 AM
Quote[/b] (kg6nie @ Jan. 25 2006,19:29)]Disguised antennas? #Yeah sure. #I got your disguised antenna.
The old lady living in the next lot, called the cops on me one day because I was stringing my "disguised" wires through the trees (160m dipole). #I guess hanging a 1kva transformer on one end about 4 feet in the air to keep the line tight didn't help. #She said she thought I was some kind of terrorist. #Anyway, I wound up telling the cop he had no jurisdication in the matter since I am licensed by the Feds. #He arrested me but only after clubing me to the ground with the butt of his sidearm. #He stated I took a swing at him. #
I fought back and in the pitched battle, my dipole came down and the flashlight I had in my hand broke on the cops head.
This is where it gets funny. #The 1kva transformer fell the 4 feet onto the old ladies foot and broke it. #The cop called for assistance and medical help. #Additional cops arrived and started to kick me while I was laying handcuffed on the ground. #I was briefly jailed before my wife bailed me out. #She came close to being arrested herself for obstruction after a string of obscenities and taking a few swipes at the cops.
I sued the town for damages, sued the cop in civil court, the old lady passed away, and I now own her house and have retired comfortably on non-taxable income from the lawsuit. #Put up a 120' tower. #Oh, the cop was fired and I got divorced. #Life is good, live it to the fullest.
K2WH
Now theres a heck of a ham radio successs story. I guess I'll go get into a fight with the cops, resist arrest, divorce my wife and sue everybody all over my long wire antenna. That will sure make the public respect us hams. So much for diplomacy huh. Or maybe I'll just try respecting the law instead, now theres a thought. -Kenneth - KG6NIE...
N6BOA
01-26-2006, 03:45 AM
Ok, Fred, time for new topics....
N6BOA
01-26-2006, 03:59 AM
W9WHE - I hate to say but, good on'ya! You are right.
Goodnight all...until next thread.
73 de n6boa
ve3lny
01-27-2006, 05:48 AM
Perhaps you could try one of these towers:
Envirocom (http://www.envirocom.co.za/)
73, Jack
Here you go…
Covenants run amuck!
An unfinished home, that would have been worth $700,000 + torn down because it did not fit into the covenants.
http://www.columbian.com/news/localNews/01052006news94241.cfm
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
WA6HYQ
01-27-2006, 11:47 PM
Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Jan. 19 2006,12:27)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Jan. 19 2006,07:16)]Quote[/b] (k5co @ Jan. 19 2006,10:50)]WE had a fellow ham here in Corrales, New Mexico that wanted to put a tower up in front of a home that has big picture windows and spectacular views. The owner had built there for the views and spent a lot to bury utility lines. The ham got an attorney and, in general, made an ass of himself. (His installation was about 60 feet from the neighbor's) I was embarrassed for the poor ham; he made us all look like dolts.
There are places where a ham is out of line in demanding such "rights". They ran him out of town, for which I am glad. Now the town thnks that hams are tasteless jerks. Maybe they are right.
The FCC has been reluctant to override covenants because it says you have a choice whether to live in an area with them or without them. #Someone could make the argument that covenants and deed restrictions cannot prohibit antennas that cannot be seen from the street by a normal passer-by. This would allow disguised antennas, ground mounted verticals in back yards, wires hidden in trees, etc.
This does not detract from property values in any way. #Just a thought.
Disguised antennas? #Yeah sure. #I got your disguised antenna.
The old lady living in the next lot, called the cops on me one day because I was stringing my "disguised" wires through the trees (160m dipole). #I guess hanging a 1kva transformer on one end about 4 feet in the air to keep the line tight didn't help. #She said she thought I was some kind of terrorist. #Anyway, I wound up telling the cop he had no jurisdication in the matter since I am licensed by the Feds. #He arrested me but only after clubing me to the ground with the butt of his sidearm. #He stated I took a swing at him. #
I fought back and in the pitched battle, my dipole came down and the flashlight I had in my hand broke on the cops head.
This is where it gets funny. #The 1kva transformer fell the 4 feet onto the old ladies foot and broke it. #The cop called for assistance and medical help. #Additional cops arrived and started to kick me while I was laying handcuffed on the ground. #I was briefly jailed before my wife bailed me out. #She came close to being arrested herself for obstruction after a string of obscenities and taking a few swipes at the cops.
I sued the town for damages, sued the cop in civil court, the old lady passed away, and I now own her house and have retired comfortably on non-taxable income from the lawsuit. #Put up a 120' tower. #Oh, the cop was fired and I got divorced. #Life is good, live it to the fullest.
K2WH
Now it's getting deep, I guess the first guy doesn't have a chance..
I could see if when the police first made contact you failed the attitude test and things escolated but don't you think its a little tall...
WA6HYQ
01-28-2006, 12:01 AM
Quote[/b] (w6em @ Jan. 25 2006,17:04)]Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Jan. 23 2006,11:42)]W9WHE (real lawyer) wrote:
"They [the covenants] are recorded with the local recorder of deeds office. They are a matter of public record. Its YOUR responsibillity to find out about them"
W6EM (a non-lawyer) then wrote:
"Not allways true, Jonathan".
Lee, here we go again. If you buy a validly restricted property, you must live with the restrictions, so long as the restrictions are a matter of public record. When such restrictions are on file with the recorder's office, ALL BUYERS are charged by the law with "CONSTRUCTIVE NOTICE", because they are a matter of public record. Even if you NEVER saw them, under "constructive notice" you are charged by the law with knowlege of them because the act of recording serves to put the world on notice. You have an obligation to use reasonable care to investigate and know what the heck it is you are buying.
If you don't believe it, ask any of the THOUSANDS #of hams that have tried to avoid such covenants with the excuse "I did not know", or the "developer or real estate agent did not tell me" #and see how well that excuse has worked for them in court or anywhere else.
If the restrictions are a matter of public record, it is YOUR OBLIGATION to follow them WHETHER OR NOT YOU EVER SAW THEM.
Now if a state has a statute requiring disclosure prior to closing, and the seller fails to deliver, you think you can avoid the otherwise valid restrictions? NOPE! WRONG AGAIN. You might have an action against the seller, BUT YOU WILL BE BOUND TO ABIDE BY THE RESTRICTIONS BECAUSE THEY WERE A MATTER OF PUBLIC RECORD AND YOU WERE CHARGED WITH CONSTRUCTIVE NOTICE EVEN IF YOU NEVER SAW THEM, EVEN IF THE SELLER WAS REQUIRED TO GIVE THEM TO BUT DID NOT.
CONCLUSION: Sorry Lee, but IT IS your obligation to check the public records for restrictive covenants, because in the end, YOU WILL BE BOUND BY THEM NO MATTER WHAT WHINEY, NAMBY PAMBY, BOGUS EXCUSE YOU CAN MUSTER. EXCUSES LIKE "I DID NOT KNOW" OR "SO-AND-SO NEVER TOLD ME" ARE JUST NOT GOING TO GET YOU OUT OF RECORDED RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS.
There is a latin phrase that comes to mind:
"Caveat Emptor"
(let the buyer be ware)
W9WHE
Why all the blather, Jonathan? #Did I say that we hams could escape CC&Rs by not knowing about them prior to signing on the dotted line? #Nope.
With all your shouting, perhaps you should lobby Dubyah to put you on the 9th Circus. #Yes, not something I'm qualified for. #All of your red light and siren expertise might be useful.
You slightly touched on the basis for my remark, which was to just say that in FL, there MAY be some remedies if the developer doesn't present them properly. #And, yes, you point out that maybe the developer or RE agent could be hauled into court. #Yes. #And, as a violation of a state law, that sounds like a crime to me. #You know, crime and punishment? #Where the aggrieved party goes to the state attorney and presses charges?
Actually getting a developer between a rock and a hard place could be fun. #Especially if the development is still not completely sold out and still in control of the association. #During that period, our developer was permitted to change those documents any six ways from Sunday to whatever he wanted. #Yes, if he were going to be publicly toasted, I'd be willing to bet that the antenna-restrictive clause might just get softened during pre-trial negotiations. #You know. #Your old professional phrase quid pro quo
Lee
W6EM
Hey Guys bottom line is when you go to buy your home in the escrow papers make it a stipulation that any antenna restrictions tank the deal, PERIOD! If your a real HAM why would you even THINK of buying a home where you can't enjoy your hobby?
It's guys who move into a neighborhood or situation where they know full well that the 100' tower with a monster stack of monobanders will cause nothing but issues and gives the hobby we all know and love a back eye.
N9TGW
01-28-2006, 07:30 AM
Quote[/b] (w6em @ Jan. 25 2006,19:04)]W9WHE
"With all your shouting, perhaps you should lobby Dubyah to put you on the 9th Circus. #Yes, not something I'm qualified for. #All of your red light and siren expertise might be useful."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"And, yes, you point out that maybe the developer or RE agent could be hauled into court. #Yes. #And, as a violation of a state law, that sounds like a crime to me. #You know, crime and punishment? #Where the aggrieved party goes to the state attorney and presses charges?"[/quote]
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
You sound like you need a good enema and fast. Have you ever heard the universal statement "ignorance of the law is no excuse"? And then to sit there and belittle someone #inferring that they are an ambulance chaser when for all you know they could be an ADA. As for violating a state law, Isn't disorderly conduct a violation of state law? Yet it isnt a criminal act it is called an INFRACTION just like speeding. Learn about what you are saying befor inserting your foot in your mouth.
There is too much dissent in the ham community as is for us to tolerate social misfits who think this is the late seventies and we are the ten four good buddy group.
Scott
N9TGW http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif #
N9TGW
01-28-2006, 08:07 AM
What everyone needs to do is research Wisconsins law on prohibitive and restrictive covnants and ordinances Against ham antennas, then take it as an example and get a petition circulating among the amateur radio operators in your state and petition your state assembly and senate to draft the bill and pass a similar law. The hurricanes, tornados fires and mudslides that we have been hit by in the last few years are nothing to be taken lightly. Without Effective Amateur Radio stations up on the fringes of these disaster areas, the short range #hts we use in the disaster zone have limited abilities. Amateur Radio was essential in the Katrina Disaster but unforunately, The authorities didnt HAVE any support close enough and werent allowing people in until the states finally requested fema assitance at which point further damage was done.
No I wasnt there when it happened but my information has come from Hams I know from Gulfport MS as well as several who were on emergency response teams that were turned away. These are people I have know personally and not just over the radio, for well over twenty and thirty five years.
Someone laughed about organizing but we have the means and it IS to better the art of radio, to enhance the ability to perform community service and spread international good will. It is not a political activity, nor is it for political, or personal gain. Dust off those unused packet rigs, get going. Remember, you are either part of the solution, or you are part of the problem.
As for myself? I live in Wisconsin... I have other things that I am fighting for.
Scott
N9TGW
kb2wye
01-28-2006, 12:03 PM
Quote[/b] (n0zu @ Jan. 20 2006,02:27)]Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Jan. 19 2006,12:27)]
The old lady living in the next lot, called the cops on me one day because I was stringing my "disguised" wires through the trees (160m dipole). #I guess hanging a 1kva transformer on one end about 4 feet in the air to keep the line tight didn't help. #She said she thought I was some kind of terrorist. #Anyway, I wound up telling the cop he had no jurisdication in the matter since I am licensed by the Feds. #He arrested me but only after clubing me to the ground with the butt of his sidearm. #He stated I took a swing at him. #
I fought back and in the pitched battle, my dipole came down and the flashlight I had in my hand broke on the cops head.
This is where it gets funny. #The 1kva transformer fell the 4 feet onto the old ladies foot and broke it. #The cop called for assistance and medical help. #Additional cops arrived and started to kick me while I was laying handcuffed on the ground. #I was briefly jailed before my wife bailed me out. #She came close to being arrested herself for obstruction after a string of obscenities and taking a few swipes at the cops.
I sued the town for damages, sued the cop in civil court, the old lady passed away, and I now own her house and have retired comfortably on non-taxable income from the lawsuit. #Put up a 120' tower. #Oh, the cop was fired and I got divorced. #Life is good, live it to the fullest.
K2WH[/b]
sound like the city here
the cops beat you
send you in and then lie about it.
The city here does not want any towers.
<span style='color:red'>I was told by the ARRL that I would get help if I had proublems.
Called the ARRL and they told me who the volunteer in the state of IOWA was to talk to.
So I got ahold of the ARRL #volunteer in IOWA and they said
they were to busy to help, but #IF I WAS TO PAY THEM THEY MAY BE ABLE TO #HELP.</span>
so I AM not a ARRL MEMBER ANY MORE
ARRL LIED they do not need my money.
<span style='color:blue'>ARRL members are to be volunteer's
I though they were not get payed</span>
in the dictionary it says a volunteer is
<span style='color:red'>volunteer >noun #1 a person who freely offers to do something. #2 a person who works for an organization without being paid. #3 a person who freely enrolls for military service rather than being conscripted. >verb #1 freely offer to do something. #2 say or suggest something without being asked.</span>
<u>
DO not see anything about getting payed!!!</u>
<span style='color:BLUE'>-------------------------------------------------------------------
GLAD NOT TO BE AN ARRL MEMBER AND NEVER WILL AGAIN.</span>
ARRL - it's only worth the $price$ off for the QST otherwise, I have no use for the ARRL. They're just a bunch of free-loaders making their money/payroll off the membership dues and all those bi-monthly requests they mail out looking for money for this and money for that - go scratch... #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
W4EGG
01-30-2006, 02:13 AM
Hey,
I live and enjoy Ham Radio on a restricted golf course..My antenna is my 60 foot long rain gutter on the north side of the house.On 75 meters I can talk to a guy a mile away..He swore he will send me a QSL card...EJ W4EGG
W4SNT
02-05-2006, 01:36 PM
have been reading comments on antenna problems hams have bin on restrictions .I moved into my Sub. 11 Years ago with 100 homes,I went to the board meeting and to the 100 homes telling them what I could do for the community in case of a power down problem.Both the Board & people gave me over 50% to have a low profile antenna "an MFJ-1796" vertical up at 32 ft. 2m-40m .
The approval was very helpfull when in South Fl. had Wilma go through ,we were without power for 11 days. I have a 13kv generator so I was still on the air giving traffic for my neighbors !.
So in my area they understood the need of HAM RADIO station for communication.
kb9pil
02-05-2006, 05:27 PM
ho yea ,it sure its a nice dream lol !
kb9pil
02-05-2006, 05:30 PM
je je ! it sure sounds like you had a nice dream ! ,I ALSO enjoyed it too ! lol ! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Quote[/b] (k5co @ Jan. 19 2006,10:50)]WE had a fellow ham here in Corrales, New Mexico that wanted to put a tower up in front of a home that has big picture windows and spectacular views. The owner had built there for the views and spent a lot to bury utility lines. The ham got an attorney and, in general, made an ass of himself. (His installation was about 60 feet from the neighbor's) I was embarrassed for the poor ham; he made us all look like dolts.
There are places where a ham is out of line in demanding such "rights". They ran him out of town, for which I am glad. Now the town thnks that hams are tasteless jerks. Maybe they are right.
Geez -- here in Miami I had a developer decide to put his "how close can I get to a zero lot-line" concrete box next to my house (his first attempt was to try to remove the property markers and grab a couple of feet of my property and the neighbor on his other side) and place all the picture windows such that they look into my spacious back yard (illegal but what the heck -- if you are a Cuban builder in Miami NOTHING is impossible ;-) ). I promptly hung a nice 80m dipole right in front of his picture windows and planted a tree to obscure his view... of my garden, not the antenna ;-).
HE moved within a month of being told (a) that the antenna was legal, his fence and windows were not, and (b) that his taxes were going to be based on the sales prices of the other 2 "near zero lot-line 'Castles' he had constructed plus 20% for the view (about 25,000$/year in property taxes!)! Guess he should have done it right the first time! Too bad -- I was REALLY REALLY looking forward to seeing just how 1.5 KW on 80m would affect his electrical system!
As for the quoted post -- there are times when you are right and times when you are wrong.... If the fella with the windows does not own the view then what you do on your property is only subject to the deed restrictions and zoning rules in force when you buy it... or in Miami, when you buy the Comissioners.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
M1NTO
02-15-2006, 05:36 PM
THIS IS POSSIBLY GOOD NEWS FOR AMATEURS. HOWEVER VERY GREAT CARE MUST BE TAKEN TO AQUIRE A POSITIVE RESPONSE, IF THE UK RULES ARE SIMILAR TO THE US.
IN UK THERE ARE A MYRIAD OF REGULATIONS THAT APPLY TO THE AMATEUR MASTS. NOT LEAST IS THE AESTHETIC EFFECT - PARTICULARLY IN BUILT UP AREAS - AND THE OBJECTIONS FROM RESIDENTS.
ALTHOUGH I HAVE NEVER APPLIED FOR A MAST, I HAVE HEARD SORRY TALES/
JUST THOUGHT I MIGHT PUT A UK POINT.
73 DE
HUGH
M1 NTO http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
KE5AUX
02-16-2006, 08:27 PM
Well I guess I can add my story in here as well.
The community where I live - The Woodlands, Texas has very strict antenna laws. So the day that I got my ticket and was on the roof mounting my dipole the neighbours complained and I was forced to spray-paint the antenna camo and hide it in the trees.
So far - no compalaint although there are rumors going around that I have sabotaged their cable television... Yeah right! With my 25w 2m rig?
ac7dx
02-23-2006, 04:03 PM
Quote[/b] (w8vho @ Jan. 22 2006,06:50)]PEOPLE REMEMBER THIS PLEASE, THE GOVERNMENT WORKS FOR YOU!! Instead of every ham in the United States writing to every government offical saying that either i get to put up a tower or you dont get my VOTE, the next time!!!!(no vote no money) we say" OH well i use a tree or disguise my ant!!" Come on America, STAND UP and FIGHT! THIS VOTE thing works for all other complaints to...
Lets organize, stick together, stand up for one another!!!THIS takes a little dedication and time, but it will be worth it!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Most that post here do not have the guts to write letters, go to board meetings, go to town hall meetings or pass code.
They just sit around and bitch and moan and wait for it to be handed to them like a welfare check.
SCREW the ARRL Boy that felt great http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif