Anonymous Postings Draw Negative Consensus

[AA7BQ]

I'm very pleased with the general outpouring of opinions and exchanges regarding my previous article entitled "The Shield of Anonymity". #The poll was an overwhelming landslide in favor of banning anonymous postings however it failed to indicate how this could actually be implemented. #A small but important detail to be sure.

Clearly, the majority of QRZ system users and administrators alike agree that the majority of problem postings on this site originate from members who are anonymously registered. # Many of the respondents, however, failed to understand the true definition of anonymity as it applies to QRZ (and as stated in the article) and as a result, a fair number of folks simply reiterated that the practice should be abolished.

All users that post to this site must first be Registered, and this means that we have verified their secret return email address by means of a message exchange.

That said, most folks by now realize that if you can anonymously obtain an email address (such as Yahoo or Hotmail), then what's the difference? #Well, not much. #The fact remains that you can use any working email address to register with QRZ. #This is the entire essence of our registration mechanism.

I'd also like to point out that our experience has NOT shown that persons registering with non-callsign names are a problem in general. #Most of these folks simply want increased privacy but are otherwise good citizens. #We support that notion with certain reservations. #Unfortunately, the same records do show that the bad guys are almost always anonymously registered.

Furthermore, my open-ended musing that suggested perhaps only known callsigns be registered was never a serious consideration. #We have always welcomed non-hams and prospective hams on this site. #Anything less would hurt our hobby by excluding the very pool of people we need to attract to keep it alive.

Others have suggested that we require some sort of identifying documentation such as a scan of a license certificate, a driver's license, birth certificate, etc.. #Yes, these are all good tools except that the sheer volume of such material would overwhelm us. #Furthermore, it has to be applied to about 130,000 existing users. #Are there any volunteers who want to wade through 130,000 poorly scanned images, faxes, letters and phone calls? #I didn't think so. # #(the actual number would be only a few thousand but even then it would still be quite a chore to review them).

Would you like to hear of a proven method that cleans up anonymous abuse AND provides anonymity to those seeking online privacy? #It's money. #That's right, dollars $$$. #I belong to several websites that have large, diverse memberships where people pay to belong. #While the members are completely known to the publisher by virtue of a name, address, credit card and telephone number, they can still choose any username they like and maintain complete anonymity to the user community at large. #The very fact that somebody knows who they are is generally enough to prevent most mischief. #Furthermore, when they get banned, they pretty much stay banned! #A good example of this is the ARRL's Members Only section.

Yes, it's a horrifying thought that QRZ might no longer be completely free to all users. #On the other hand, some mixture of paid support and free services could be very healthy. # Under such a sceneario, non-paying users would still be able to use the site, the practice exams, the callsign database, and view the discussions. #Posters, however, would have to subscribe. #The money from these subscribers would essentially pay for the cost of identifying them. #How much? #Probably less than you think. #Something on the order of $10 per year, or FREE for QRZ CDROM subscribers. #
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Just in case you have your calculators out, note that only a couple of thousand people regularly post to the forum. #Our 130,000 users include all those who have password access to their callsign records, however, those types of activities would remain free.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
We have no plans at this time to convert any part of QRZ to paid subscription however I wanted everybody to understand that if they really want anonymous users banned that this would be one way of doing it. #Just imagine if we could rid ourselves of those who derive pleasure from tormenting others behind a cowardly shield of anonymity.

In the meantime, we're doing what we can do. #What's that you ask? #Well, our administrators (a.k.a. editors) are now trained to give the benefit of the doubt, or preference if you will, to non-anonymous users should a problem arise. #If you're accused of harassing someone and you won't identify yourself, you're out. #If you are caught re-registering after having been banned under another name then we have legal recourse to proscecute you as an electronic tresspasser.

So, in conclusion, we hear the popular mandate to ban anonymity. #If only there were an economical and/or trustworthy way of doing this, we would. #Meanwhile, we'll just keep plugging along, laughing and smiling, grimmacing and crying, along with everyone else.

Oh, and don't forget these two first-grade rules:
Play Nice and Don't Hurt Anybody.

Tell us what you think. #Click on the Add Reply button and speak out! #We are listening....

73,

-fred

OK, so by restricting posting to paid registered users, you seem to be implying that having money makes you honest.

Um, I don't think so.

That having been said, it's your site, do whatever you want with it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Sorry but you missed my point. #What makes people honest is knowing that they can't hide. #The subscription argument supposes that positive identification is part of the payment process.
-fred
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

[KB7TBT]

you mention how to make this happen, it is simple..

make the registered users ALL HAMS..

they can make a user base id with you with there call sign, address and any other confermation you need to make sure that only hams post..but have the option to have a "handle" of "joe blow"..

make the info private to your database only.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[nu7t]

Americans stand behind their beliefs.

[k4bb]

Hey, Fred, you asked for our opinions, now the remedy is up to you. #

You are correct, charging for the priviledge of posting to the forums is one way of limiting the lids. #It has nothing to do with assuring honesty, it just adds a hurdle for the abusive posters. #

Alternatively, you could have the pay-for-posting policy and eliminate the charge for users who contribute equipment reviews, for-sale ads, or worthwhile articles to QRZ.COM. #I would think these users would tend to be the more serious and appreciative of your services.

I have noticed that most registered Amateurs do not have biographical information listed. #Perhaps offering free services to those willing to post some information about themselves would be fair. #That way, if you wish to remain anonymous you pay money, and if you are willing to be open, you pay with personal information. Amateur operators automatically have their names and addresses listed as part of the data base. #I don't see why we can't have the same information on those who are not amateurs. #That is a fair choice.

There are probably several ways to attract and offer free services to the appreciative user. The threat of a monetary cost would be effective in keeping lids away.

Thanks for the great service you give.

Bob
K4BB

[k9amz]

While I do enjoy reading (and voicing my opinions - yes, I'm a rather opinionated SoB - in) this forum from time to time, count me out if you're thinking about requiring a credit card or other form of "paid membership" - this is just not worth paying for to me (your mileage may vary...) - I'd rather spend my bucks on flying the helo. But then again, I also have been known to prefer the skies over the basement shack...

It's your site, do whatever you feel is necessary/appropriate; and have some fun already #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

88 de Al, K9AMZ


P.S.: (added as en "Edit") I don't understand all the fuzz about "anonymous" posts. I just ignore them... _K9.

[ke4pjw]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KC0MPL @ May 12 2002,20:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">OK, so by restricting posting to paid registered users, you seem to be implying that having money makes you honest.

Um, I don't think so.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Yes it will. The reason is the method of payment. You are no longer anonymous. You must give _YOUR_ credit card# to register. If you commit fraud, well getting banned will be the least of your worries.

This is like any behavior modification scheme. In order to be effective, it must make the risk too high for the benefit. That's why people have starter disables on their cars and bars over windows on their homes, to keep thieves out. The risk is too high for the benefit.

[KD7KOY]

I can see the point in not wanting people registered "anonymous".
#But let me say this.
We seem to be living n a world where people want to know just about everything about a person. And lets be honest. In most cases this "knowing" is usually used for not so benelvolent purposes. Some say living in this age it's just the way it is. Wrong..living in this age we should be especially careful in giving out information to anyone, especially on the net.
#Any system administrator worth his floppies knows that computers are the most unsecure machines in this age.
#Like the Social Security number, that was meant as an "account number", now it is used, or should I say demanded by various organizations from banks to voting.
Good?..I'm not so sure. A persons privacy is his/her own business.
#That being said, this is the internet. You will on occasion, get people who have no other life but to cause problems for others. Thats just a fact of the medium. USENET for example has "moderated" and unmoderated newsgroups. Moderated is filtered. Unmoderated is basically, a free for all. There are various options available to me. I read over it. I delete it, I filter it. To a system adminsitrator, his options are even more.
#This is a private site. You can do what ever you wish.
#However, it would seem, through moderation of forums etc., the vast majority of incidents can be dealt with through the keyboard. Banning names, IP's or an e-mail to "root@butthead.net" threatening to ban a domain,(root, being the administrator for you Windoz people.) usually gets a response from the persons ISP.
# To be frank, I see just a bit of "over reaction", lets make another law, another rule, more restrictions. Use the tools you have.
I may add that anyone who gives out his credit card number on the net is asking for trouble. Not only have numbers been stolen but data bases cracked for the numbers. I know it seems to be the "norm" these days, but it's an accident getting ready to happen.
# To the people who remember Archie (NFSnet)...Veronica..where art thou?!!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[wd4oay]

There is already too many "pay for view" sites. QRZ.com is a great site but I would not pay for content that I can get elsewhere (but not as convienant!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KG4TGY]

Seems rather simple to me. I just got my call sign today. While it is in the FCC database, it is not in yours yet. So I decided to add it to your database myself, but could not. It seems that to be in your database it has to come from the FCC. Why not just base your registration on your database? That way it doen't matter if they have an anonymous e-mail address. Having a callsign that matches yours and the FCC's databases does away with anonymity. Just a thought.

[N7CPC]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif I don't have a credit card and don't see myself falling into that trap for this or any hobby related activity.

To quote my Grandfather," If you want it and can't pay for it, you don't need it. If you need it and can't pay for it, get a different job!".

Credit alone ends more families every year than almost anything else.

Ham Radio is a hobby. Not brain surgery.

I pay for QST not the ARRL's political clout. Or the members only website. ( Allthough ARRL call sign database knows who N7CPC is where QRZ does not.)

Does money make you honest? How many polititions are hams?

So, If you gotta have a credit card to stay here, I guess that would count me out.

73 de Craig.........N7CPC

P.S. Look it up at Buckmaster, it's mine. cc http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

OK, so it's there now, it wasn't a couple of hours ago. Sorry Fred, better late than never!
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Better late than never???

You posted your article around midnight. Your callsign was added to our database at 11:AM - 13 hours before you made your posting.

So, let me see if I understand you correctly:

1. Credit is a bad thing because that's what your granddaddy said.

2. You think QRZ is great, but not worth helping to pay for.

3. QRZ is substandard in your view because some other website posted your precious new vanity callsign a few hours before we did.

Does that about sum it up?


-fred


[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

[n8emr]

Since there is nothing to tie an FCC callsign to an email address, someone just picks
a valid callsign and registers it.Problem is not solved.

How do you determine if a "email address is anonymous or not" Granted yahoo.com, hotmail.com are
generally anonymous. I have my own domain name and I can add machines or email address anytime I want.
How is that any more "secure" than an email address tied to some unknown ISP?

I use yahoo.com for registering at many web sites mainly because I dont want junk mail that some sites want to send.

If people want to be a pain they will just go to another email site not on the "blocked" list and register.
Heck as a road runner user I can create an email account register, delete the account and be done with it
so even using "known ISP" doesnt solve the problem.

[KD5RWI]

Was this thread about making money all along?

If QRZ.com wants to start charging for it's use, then do so without using the anonymous access issue as an excuse.

QRZ.com is a great service! I would have no problem paying for it, that is if the price was right.

Ronn Folk
KD5RWI[B][U]

[N1BXY]

You have stated your (QRZ) opinion regarding users which are (for the most part) some form of Predator. Again, as you have previously stated, there are different forms of remedy which may be applied. Polling the qrz.com users which are registered Amateur Radio Operators (again, for the most part) seems to imply some form of identification inherent in your data bases. Those who do not register weith qrz.com can't actually use the web site to any degree.

Perhaps a tutorial aimed at the registered user on 'how to avoid' these people would be effective. Not 100%, to be sure, though this would serve to lessen the numbers of honest people cheated or exploited by these same predators who use your most excellent web site. This kind of dishonest behavior cannot really be avoided.

Eschew the unidentified seller of doubtful goods/enterprises. It's a start. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[aa1mn]

Dear Fred,

Let me start by agreeing with the comment posted by N7CPC. I don't have a credit card either, not because credit is a bad thing as you stated, but once you start paying for things you don't have the money for to begin with is the quickest cure for saving money.

N7CPC reiterated the saying I have lived by for my entire life, "If you can't pay for it you don't need it."

The day I have to pay for www.qrz.com I will no longer need it.

Unless you -- yes, Fred I mean you -- intended to start posting pictures of pretty ladies without wearing clothes on this site holding amateur radios in provocative positions it will not be worth me paying for.

So how about it? You up to the challenge, Fred, of adding some "excitement" to these pages in exchange for the money you'll be extorting from us paying honest posters?

73's and all the best,

Chuck
AA1MN

[N1BXY]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
It's me again. I will gladly pay $10.00 per annum for this most excellent web site. Saying that the $10.00 per annum will break your bank is pure ka-ka. That is less than 3 cents a day.

I have successfully purchased 4 items from "Hams" on your web site. All of the goods purchased were as stated and to me, "a good buy". I have used AC6V for purchases as well and have had only two bad items (touted as in good condition) sent to me. They all included return addresses and I was able to get some remedy from one of the two sellers of crap only when I threatened reporting them to the U.S Postal Service as mail fraud. The other one skipped. I didn't loose too much money on that one so I think I came out ahead.

Your site is a good site. Keep up the good work and by any means, $10.00 a year is not too much to pay for using QRZ.COM!! I don't believe that you MUST BE A FREE SITE. The money is not a factor in any thinking.

[n4aof]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KB7TBT @ May 13 2002,20:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">you mention how to make this happen, it is simple..

make the registered users ALL HAMS..

they can make a user base id with you with there call sign, address and any other confermation you need to make sure that only hams post..but have the option to have a "handle" of "joe blow"..

make the info private to your database only.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
How do you suggest he find out if the person really IS a ham? Limiting registration to licensed amateur radio operators has a few drawbacks:

1) There isn't any easy way to do it

2) It doesn't keep out the riff-raff

3) There isn't any easy way to do it

4) It would keep out prospective hams who want to find out more about what the amateur community is like.

and

5) There isn't any easy way to do it.

[KE4MOB]

I think the only solution is to recruit a good, reliable base of moderators. #Here's why (my opinion):

A) #Restricting membership to only hams is not an option. #Besides, I see the point made that some of the worst offenses are committed by hams with callsigns for everyone to see. #I really don't see the difference in being flamed by an anonymous poster and flamed by a ham. #Either way, it's disrespect. #And it shouldn't be tolerated. #No matter who the originator. #I disagree with you Fred on the idea that "What makes people honest is knowing that they can't hide." #Remember the schoolyard bully? #He sure didn't hide! #He wanted the weakling to know who was in charge.

B) #All the wonderful checks suggested so far are (I suspect) way too intensive for Fred to undertake--without major support.

C) And hams are cheap. #We all know that. #Is $5-$10 a year worth me being able to "shoot my mouth off" on this site? #Probably not. #Quite frankly, I don't think what I have to say is worth it. #I can go out an yell at a tree and it will have about as much consequence in the grand scheme of things. #

In essence, this is like a two meter repeater dispute. #On the one hand is an individual who is willing to volunteer time and effort to put in place something for the greater good. #On the other is a cross section of humanity who use the service--some good, some bad. #Do we close the repeater, or just police the users a little more closely? #I think the FCC rules provide the answer.

Steve, KE4MOB

[k2ul]

I continue to be amazed at the number of paranoid Americans who don't understand the difference between personal privacy and public privacy. Posting an anonymous message on the board is like walking into a large shopping mall and expecting to be invisible. If you want total privacy, stay away from shopping malls and public web sites.

I don't support the idea of paid membership after seeing what happened when Classmates.com required paid membership for message posting - messages fell to zero. OTOH, the idea of moderated versus unmoderated message boards is a good one, except for the volume of messages that may need to be moderated. Perhaps it can be automated, dunno. Compromise: only allow messages from registered users. See if that helps. If not, then try something else. It may take several steps to jump from problem to solution.

de K2UL

[K2WH]

Maybe I'm naieve but, I have never seen a reason to hide ones identity. #Even as a CB'er back 30 years ago, I just used my first name Bill. #When the internet started I used Bill. #What is the psychology behind this identity thing? #Anyone know?

Other than that, Fred, I love QRZ. #It is my home page. #I say charge whatever you like to fix the problem and get rid of the ilk for good.

Ever notice how the anomynous posters all seem to have a chip on their shoulder. Confrontational and will almost never conform to the generally accepted ways of behaviour and beliefs.

[KE4MCL]

you have a great site here but i'm not going to pay for access unless you get rid of the ads. $10 a year aint bad if the quality of the site doesnt suffer but i feel it will. the web is supposed to be free, thats why we get bombarded with ads. its a trade. you bombard me with things i wont buy, and i get to view some cool info.

i dont think you can really have any way to assure accountability for who did what.

my idea is that you put a disclaimer stating that use of this site is free and with no promises. the owner or moderators of the site can kick out anyone on any grounds they see fit. someone wants to be a troll? kick'em out!

too much work for you?? get some moderators and give them the ability to kick trolls out. i'm sure there are some trusted buddies out there you can give this task to. make it so 2 or more moderators must "sign off" on the eviction so we dont get personal problems into this.

www.geocaching.com has moderators and a MINIMUM of ads. trolls are shot on site and threads that get out of hand are locked. they have a membership OPTION but most of the site is free.

I HAVE A FRIEND WHO WORKS{IS A REPORTER} FOR CBS AND THE 60 MINUTES PROGRAM,THEYARE CURRENTLY WORKING ON AN UPCOMING SEGMENT ABOUT THE INTERNET,STOLEN IDENTITIES,CREDIT CARD FRAUD ON THE INTERNET ,ETC.ONE OF THE MAJOR POINTS THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE IS,NO MATTER WHAT THE PUROSE, OR WHAT THE SITE ,YOU ARE LOGGING ONTO, OR INVOLVED WITH,ALWAYS,ALWAYS,ALWAYS, REMAIN ANONOMOUS WITH REGARD TO PERSONAL IDENTITY.THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE 3 EXPERTS ON THE INTERNET, ON THE SHOW EXPLAINING THE NEED TO REMAIN ANONOMOUS.YOU MIGHT FIND THIS UPCOMING SEGMENT INTERESTING.REMAIN ANONOMOUS, AND GUARD YOUR,PRIVICY,IDENTITY,ETC.MAKES PERSONAL LIFE AS WELL AS THE LIFE OF YOUR FAMILY MUCH,MUCH, BETTER.ONE POINT THEY WILL ALSO MAKE ON THE SHOW IS, IF YOU FIND SITES THAT DO NOT ALLOW PEOPLE TO REMAIN ANONOMOUS,THEN NEVER LOG ONTO THESE TYPES OF WEBSITES.THIS SHOW SHOULD BE INTERESTING.I WILL POST AS SOON AS I KNOW THE EXACT DATE THIS WILL AIR ON TV.

[KD7KOY]

czar,
#I have always been an advocate of not giving out personal info on the net.
#Some of the most "secure" databases known including Software, government etc has been cracked.
#Incidents of "identity thief" is way up. Reason; your social security number is plastered in databases everywhere from voting to your banks. Which are either accessed or documents thrown away in the garbage where thieves retrieve them.
#One post called Americans "paranoid" and should have no expection of privacy on the net. Wrong again..if anyone is not concerned that their credit card numbers, social security numbers, everything that we base our life on in this age, cannot be used or stolen or misused in a database, may I offer you a bridge for sale in Brooklyn.
#If you want to know where your kids have been, check out the temp, cache and cookies files on your own computer. (There are several hidden Windoz directories also.)
#Giving out credit card info or other personal information on a computer and storing it on a database, is like putting it in an envelope on the table with a note saying "do not open".
# The fact is, the info, is now out of your control.
# I challedge any systems administrator to say that their database is "totally" secure and guarantees the data is not accessable to unauthorized persons.
# If he does, he's either very niave or should'nt be in that position.
# A nortorous incident, (I won't mention any names..it was widely publicized..) involving a well known software database; access was gained by "fooling" an employee into giving passwords.
#There has been several widely publicized incidents, yet Americans still give out their most personal information on a computer. Most are done by disgruntled employees, others are cracked. All I can say is "Duh!"
# My point is, if you give out personal info on the net, you just waved a red flag to anyone that has the knowledge or the will to get it.

[mackinac]

Interesting comments on this thread. #The most disappointing ones are from people who are glad to see Fred, et al, do all the work and put their money into it, but would quit using the site if they had to put in even a $1 out of their own pocket.

Anonymous postings aren't a new thing to ham radio. #I recall reading that in the early days of QST they published regular rants from some guy who only identified himself as "The Old Man". #That was long before my time, but I guess the did finally learn who he was.

[KG4RYT]

WHAT'S WRONG WITH JUST A CALL SIGN http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif #THIS IS A HAM SITE http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif #AND IF SO THEN WE MUST ONLY ALLOW HAMS TO POST THEIR OPINIONS http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif NO CALL NO POSTING. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif NON HAMS CAN JUST BE GUESTS http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[n3xp]

Well said Fred! #Some users have flaws to there solutions.

1. # Not all hams are in the FCC database. #Did anyone stop to think about the DX calls. #I doubt very much many countries make its callsign data available to the public for free. #I guess if you want to limit access to US hams only this would be a good solution.

2. # The notion that one must use a callsign for posting, because this is the American thing to do. #Hey, guess what, Americans are not the majority in the world. #So telling a Chinese user that they are not American because he/she values free speech, and knows just what it is to have to fear speaking out is non-sense. #For us American we should be glad that we have the right to speak freely without fear of prosecution, be it anonoymous or not. #For those that don't know the Internet is not limited to US borders.

3. # The Idea that requiring a credit card number eliminates anonymity, this is false. #There are many credit providers that offer prepaid visa's, amex's, and mastercards. #Yes these cards do not require a name and can be bought with a check or even a money order. #So being anonymous will live on.

4. # #Everyone was in favor of callsigns being a must. #Now that it has been proposed, not implemented, just proposed that a fee could be tacked on to these wishes the crowd roared. #Ten, twenty, fifty bucks a years what is the difference, don't tell me the dollar amount I know that, it would never deter "stupid" people from posting "stupid" things. #This fee structure would only be a burdon for users, personally I am in favor of it. #A pay service might just eliminate the bizzare people that think Ham Radio is a closed society.

5. #The idea that using a callsign makes you less anonymous, is foolish. #All most all of you have no idea of who I am or what I look like. #What difference does it make what name I post with. #If I post under a non-ham ID, which I do, you will know me by that ID and that ID only.

6. # Just imagine a world were everyone knew everything. #A public database to lookup license plate records, employment history, medical history, all telephone records, and the list could go on. #Feel lucky we have the option to use a post office box, how many of you use them, an unlisted phone number, private credit, medical, education, and employment information.

For whatever reason some feel the need to have everyone know who they are all the time. #Others value the ability to stay anonymous when they feel the situation warrants just that. #What ever your choice has been just value that you have the freedom to choose.

ALSO THINK ABOUT THIS,CALL SIGNS FOR PEOPLE THAT WORK FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE,CIA,NSA,AND SEVERAL GOVERMENT AGENCIES ARE NOT IN THE QRZ DATABASE OR THE PUBLIC FCC DATABASE.THERE ARE ALOT OF HAMS THAT WORK FOR MOTOROLA,INTEL,SPERRY FLIGHT SYSTEMS THAT HAVE SECURITY CLEARANCE FOR GOVERMENT WORK, AND THEY ARE REQUIRED NOT TO HAVE THEIR CALLS PUBLICLY DISPLAYED.IF ALL THE POSTINGS HAVE TO HAVE CALL SIGNS,THEN THERE IS ANOTHER BUNCH OF HAMS WE CAN ALIENATE ,ALONG WITH ALL PROSPECTIVE HAMS.

[km6xu]

Why not just have the anonymous users pay?

[m0tng]

Just ignore the morons and they will go away.

I don't mind paying $10 per year if I have to, but I don't think this would stop the abuse. So if someone posts an article you don't like, ignore it.
The same goes for trying to defend somebody else, all these people want is a response, don't give them one.

It's just like TV, I hate soccer, if it comes on TV I don't watch it.

Give the nasties what they deserve.....NOTHING.

73 de M0TNG (qthr)

[JimRHam]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (aa1mn @ May 14 2002,09:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Let me start by agreeing with the comment posted by N7CPC. #I don't have a credit card either, not because credit is a bad thing as you stated, but once you start paying for things you don't have the money for to begin with is the quickest cure for saving money.

N7CPC reiterated the saying I have lived by for my entire life, "If you can't pay for it you don't need it."

The day I have to pay for www.qrz.com I will no longer need it. #

Unless you -- yes, Fred I mean you -- intended to start posting pictures of pretty ladies without wearing clothes on this site holding amateur radios in provocative positions it will not be worth me paying for.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I use my credit card all the time. #I called AES ordered a Mark V and had it at my door in two days. #Later I got the bill and paid it in full. #Credit cards are more convient. #It's very simple for people who know how to figure their balance and set a spending limit and not go over it. #I realise that this is to complicated for some people and I agree that these people should definately not have a credit card. #My son is one of these people. #

I will gladly pay $10 a year for full access to QRZ, but not by a credit card over the internet. And I want the pictures of the ladies also.

[AE6IDX]

I would also pay to see radios and men in various states of disrobe.

[WB6FTI]

This is interesting.
I read with dismay a post by "MattBeers" calling a previous poster a "b_st_rd", and I meant to come back and reply that this was the kind of inappropriate remark that got anonymous posters in trouble. To my surprise, the offensive post is gone! Thanks, Fred (and/or your unseen moderators), for cleaning up so quick! If only such ungentlemanly behavior was so easily removed on the air...

Bill "Gene" Reid KD7PQA

[kb9tqn]

The troublemakers only cause trouble when others feed into their junk by paying attention to them. It's a two way street people. Ignore them and they'll go away. The simplest answer would be to warn and then ban anyone that keeps the asinine arguments and flamewars going even if they're legitimate hams.

[n9kpn]

Banning anonymous users by either:
a) #Making the site a PAY site
b) #Using FCC callsign info

Will not work. #While making the site a PAY ONLY will probably stop a lot of anonymous people from posting, it won't be because they are hiding. #If you make the site a pay site numerous people will simply choose to spend their time elsewhere on the 'net. #Including people that do not post anonymously.

If you make the database such that you can only post by using a callsign, anonymous posters will simply find a way to use the callsign of an unregistered user. #

BBS, Newsgroups, and messages boards all have one thing in common; TROLLS. #If you have spent any time on the air you probably have come across the very same person that post anonymously. #They chide you for operation that #is not in their mind "proper" or just become an overall pain in your side just for their own pleasure. #Usually they have nothing better to do than to cause grief for other people.

NOT ALL ANONOMOUS POSTERS ARE,WEIRD,FREEBANDERS,WANTED,ETC. SOME PEOPLE JUST WANT THERE PRIVACY .IF YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THAT THEN YOU ARE NOT A TRUE AMERICAN.COME FROM SOME OTHER COUNTRIES WHERE THEY KNOW WHERE,WHEN ,HOW,AND THEY TELL YOU WHY TO DO EVERYTHING !!!!!!!! AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND.IN THIS AGE OF SO CALLED "INTERNET TECHNOLOGY "THE ONLY TRULY SMART THING TO DO IS REMAIN ANONOMOUS.MOST OF YOU IN YOUR LIFETIME WILL COME TO SEE WHAT I MEAN.LET ALL THE INFO OUT ON QRZ. INCLUDING SS #,DRIVERS LICENSE #,HOME AND WORK ADDRESS,MOTHERS MAIDEN NAME,AND LETS NOT FORGET YOUR POLITICAL PARTY AFFILIATION.EVEN PEOPLE IN THE U.S.A.HAVE TO ,AND WILL LEARN, THE HARD WAY !

[AD6WL]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n9kpn @ May 14 2002,15:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Banning anonymous users by either:
a) #Making the site a PAY site
b) #Using FCC callsign info

Will not work. #While making the site a PAY ONLY will probably stop a lot of anonymous people from posting, it won't be because they are hiding. #If you make the site a pay site numerous people will simply choose to spend their time elsewhere on the 'net. #Including people that do not post anonymously.

If you make the database such that you can only post by using a callsign, anonymous posters will simply find a way to use the callsign of an unregistered user. #

BBS, Newsgroups, and messages boards all have one thing in common; TROLLS. #If you have spent any time on the air you probably have come across the very same person that post anonymously. #They chide you for operation that #is not in their mind "proper" or just become an overall pain in your side just for their own pleasure. #Usually they have nothing better to do than to cause grief for other people.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Apparently this is just a rehash of the other thread. If you notice most of the poeple who are trouble posters, the ones who start a lot of animousity amoungst hams, and stir the pot, are usually registered with their callsign. So, please don't go labeling everyone who wishes to remain anonomous as trouble makers, because it just isn't true.

73, Jim
AD6WL

[N4DIA]

QRZ Members,

PLEASE READ FRED'S POST COMPLETELY!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We have no plans at this time to convert any part of QRZ to paid subscription however I wanted everybody to understand that if they really want anonymous users banned that this would be one way of doing it. #[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Seems a majority of the replies to his post are screaming about $.

What he is asking is for ideas and letting you, the members, know what has been bantered about as possible solutions to the ongoing problem of a few, and let me emphasize, a few LID Anonymous users. (And yes, we have a few LID members who DO identify)

QRZ deals with both the Identified and Non-Identified abusers in the same manner - banning them. #QRZ is an equal opportunity website when it comes to dealing with abuse.

Since Fred's 1st post and this one, we have had to remove 2 pornographic images posted by "anonymous" members and several rude and crude comments. #Several other posts were edited to make them PG rather then the X rating they held.

Please remember that there are many 10, 11, 12, 13.... year old Licensed Hams that use this site. #Do you show YOUR kids porn? #Do you abuse YOUR kids with foul language? #No? #Then don't subject others to it.

This site is open to ALL AGES and walks of life. #Please show the same respect you demand for yourself and your family to others.

73
N4DIA

[ke4pjw]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n3xp @ May 13 2002,14:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">3. The Idea that requiring a credit card number eliminates anonymity, this is false. There are many credit providers that offer prepaid visa's, amex's, and mastercards. Yes these cards do not require a name and can be bought with a check or even a money order. So being anonymous will live on.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Why in the world would someone go get a pre-paid Credit Card, pay $10 to QRZ.COM to make posts that will be removed in less than 24 hours?

I'm sure that it's worth Fred's while to delete a few posts and revoke an account for $10. However I don't think it's worth the "Anonymous" poster's time to get the Pre-Paid card.

The point is not being "Anonymous". The point is that it is too easy to create a new account and use it to toll.

I will be more than happy to pony up the less than $1/mo charge to post on qrz.com.

[NC7M]

I am really sorry this has happened to this site... a possible fix... registered user must have a pay ISP. No freeby sites like hotmail and yahoo. If they still need registration through these sites than a credit card would be required.
I for one would not be in favor of having my credit card hanging out there, but I do enjoy the site and would have to decide that when and if that time comes.

Thanks for putting the site up. 73 NC7M

[w0nwa]

Where do I Pay the fee!!!?
if that is what it takes to get rid of the anonymous postings

I am all for it!!!

Jeff
W0NWA

[N3TNQ]

I wouldn't be thrilled about having to use a credit card. #I would, however, be more than willing to pay $10 a year. #What ever happened to things like calling a 900 number to pay for things like that. #(That way I never had to tell my wife that I spent the money... she never looks close at the phone bill #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif ). # The thing I find interesting is that the only time I have heard someone from the site mentioning asking users for help, its been in the context of stating that noboby would be willing. I can't imagine that is so. #I know that I would be willing to kick in a few hours a month in whatever way the site could use my help. # HMMMM, that might be an interesting way to contribute, those willing to contribute time could receive higher access or free access or free qrz cd's or something #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[k3sam]

Fred, I personally feel that you may have the answer at hand with the fee based service. You have never screamed for money (and you aren't now), however this site is reflection of it's owner. Allowing intentional character assults is not what I want to see or read, whether it concerns myself or anyone else that posts here.

I too have the choice of scrolling past them however some replies start off as a nice reply only to end with a personal attack. Letting non-members read the posts, use the QRZ lookup database, and taking the example tests is a fair trade off. If upon registration, they would be forced to enter their real name along with a user name (or callsign), at least you and your moderators would know who the offenders are, if the information is correct.

If it comes down to the $10 charge, count me in.

Thank you,
Sam Jacobs (k3sam)

[KC8TSR]

so sad....it all comes down to money, again, heh?

well, everything will have stay as is, or we won't

have any money left for radio equipment, then where

will the Amateur Service be? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[namlrc]

I can see both sides of the argument here, but personally I find it easier to use the same "handle" - namlrc, then using my call sign. #IM not trying to be secretive or hide my identity, and I feel that many of those who use a login other than their callsign are doing it for some control over their privacy. #But just to show you IM not some pirate, the call is AI1B.......

[ae9b]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (nu7t @ May 13 2002,20:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Americans stand behind their beliefs.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Freedom has a price.

The best way to handle the jerks is to ignore them. We do the same on repeaters with jammers and it worked well.

Going to a "Fee Based" solution is inviting trouble. 1)Imagine some knuckle head hacked into the credit card numbers file http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif. 2) When people pay for something, they expect "things". And when "things" did not go right guess what? #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif 3) Book keeping, IRS, unreasonable expectations......I'm not sure if $5 or $10 a year is enought. 4) We'll missed #the "cheap skates" and their comments

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Keep it the way it is. Just ignore the jerks.

73 de KC6VLG

[KD1XH]

If someone pays money for something it doesn't guarantee they won't abuse it. Everyone pays good money for their radios. It's hard to believe someone would buy one just to play around (licensed or not), but it happens, as we all know.

[w6th]

As for a getting pay for the use of QRZ.COM, well these are hams we are talking about. #I have known so many hams from all of the 50 states and some, not all will go out and buy a $1000.00 to $4000.00 radio and then think twice about buying their children a pair of shoes.
# # I would just play it by ear as our lawers say and not by the books, so have hopes to come to some agreement as to do away with the #ones who do not want to be known. My solution is for hams and hams only along with their call letters and then this should solve many un-necessary listings, which make no sense anyway you look at it.

[AA7BQ]

Just a few follow-up items that are developing from this thread...

* Credit Cards
People use them differently. #Some folks use them for credit and others for the convenience of payment, tracking, record keeping, etc.. # Personally, I'm one of the latter. #I have a pocket full of credit cards, that I use regularly, but never go into "debt". #I pay all of my bills every month. #I hate checks and the way people treat you when you try to use them. #Credit/Debit cards are wonderful.

* Online Shopping
Using a credit card online is as safe as using it in a restaurant - maybe safer. #It's easier for waiter/waitress to get your credit card number than it is for a computer hacker. #QRZ has processed over 30,000 credit card transactions from hams all around the world. #Our security record is perfect - never one single fraud. #It's not a surprise, however. #We don't even get to see customer's credit card numbers, let alone store them. #Our transactions go directly to a secure bank processor. #Finally, I don't get it why so many people think that if their credit card number gets stolen that they become responsible for the illegal use (purchases). #They don't. #You simply don't have to pay your bill if you didn't make the charge. #The old "you're responsible for the first $50..." is baloney. #I've heard a lot of people worry about that but have NEVER met anyone who actually paid a dime towards unauthorized purchases on their card.

* I, too am amazed at some of the folks who lavish praise on QRZ but then scoff at the idea of helping to pay for it. #It would be different if they simply thought the site was bad however these folks are using and enjoying the site, while at the same time telling others that it's not worth paying for. #Is there something wrong with this picture or am I just missing something here?

* One fellow suggested that only the anonymous users should pay. #That's an interesting point that reminds me of local telephone companies that charge you to have an unlisted number. #Same thing, IMHO.

* I'm very gratified by the messages of support from those who would be willing to pay. #Just knowing that reassures me that were still producing something of value here. #For those who say that $10 per year is too expensive, well, #they are really just saying that they don't want to pay any price. #My electric bill fluctuates more than that each month....

* This whole discussion is NOT a prelude to justifying a new pay-to-play QRZ. # A lot of people are apparently firing off responses before having read my entire article.

* QRZ WILL most likely start a Donor Membership program. #Folks ask me all the time how they can contribute to the site and I usually tell them to buy one of our CDROM's. #Many however don't need the CDROM, or, wish to contribute a lesser amount. #Either way, I'm going to make it easier for folks to donate, IF THEY SO CHOOSE. #This has nothing to do with the anonymous abuse problem and will do nothing to make it better. #It will help me pay the bills, however, and keep things running smoothly. #Right now, for example, my office needs a new air conditioner to help cool the new computers I've added in the past year. #It was nearly 100 degrees outside yesterday and my A/C could only cool the computer room to about 89 degrees. #I'm sweating too.

73,

-fred #AA7BQ

[kd3v]

As an 'identified' user and not the owner of this site, I personally would allow anonymous posts because I can simply ignore them and cause myself no pain. You do not have to give them more than a glance to recognize most. So why bother. Why ask fred or an editor to do what I can do faster and more easily!

I might also want to make an anonymous post if I feel that my opinion might inflame someone despite it being made in good faith toward the topic at hand. I have no wish for someone who has screws loose to make me a target.. too often a real problem! I have no interest in being a news item.

I also appreciate Fred's problems and will let him make the decisions for his site.

Most web sites can get their revenue just like in the days when we had only broadcast TV, by advertisers, and we users can do what we always could do then , and change the channel at any time.

I do not need to have Fred waste his time culling out the bad posts. I can do that for myself. Anyone worried about what their children see on the web... and you should be!... has to take their own steps to monitor what their children see but there are practical limits to that. We can't stop a child from experiencing the world! We often can only talk about what happens afterwards and deal with the results. That means we all need to take steps to be better communicators with our children and family/friends in general.

The end result is that we as individuals are responsible for what we allow in our lives within the practical limits of living in a large society. Handle as needed based on personal values and priorities.

People will pay for something they hope has enough value. I can not say if I would ever support qrz.com with $. It gives a fine service for our community and I hope he charges for the advertisements and gets some $ for his efforts. I hope he "makes a profit"!

We are our own best "policeman". Do not expect someone else to do your own job. If you don't like it what you see, "change the channel".

Good Luck Fred in what ever you decide. It IS your site.

KDa3Ve

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
It's not so much about bad posts as it is about harassment. Some of our worst offenders make bad posts, AND they follow up offline with private, harassing emails. #Some of them also incite bad behavior. #

An example would be an otherwise normal discussion, interuppted by a bad egg who tosses in a hand grenade causing the whole thread to go downhill rapidly. #Your suggestion to ignore bad posts is a good one, however, there are a great many people who can't constrain themselves to do so. #They get baited and drawn in, all the while the instigator sits back laughing. #In effect, he's having fun at the expense of those who lack common sense, and, unfortunately, this can be a target rich environment.

It's kind of like the kid in the playground who's always starting fights. You need to get rid of them.

Just a couple more thoughts,

-fred

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

[KD5KWS]

I, also, am a rather opinionated SOB. My favorite abuse,
I guess, is the one about "...there is no past, tear down
the tower...". Sure, I got a little miffed at this persons
obvious lack of, well call it what you will. The post just
had no concept of the problem at hand. All this person
wanted to do was hear himself being heard by himself.
Yes, I had my $.02 (hehe, couldn't find the cents key,
donobodisaynuttin) to put in, and I did. I went on about
my merry little way. The bottom line is, it was easy
enough to ignore. I do hope that some solution can be
found that doesn't involve money. That is the problem
with society today... "all problems can be solved with
enough money". The problem with that is if somebody has enough money to solve all the worlds problems he's
probably gonna buy a new car. On the other hand, just ignoring it will not make it go away. I do enjoy this site very much and, like I said, I hope the solution doesn't involve money. If it does I hope that I can send a money order. LIDS... they're not just for breakfast anymore. Good luck, and I will support any decision that you make.
It is, after all, your machine.

[m3icq]

Can we not have the ability to sort the replies on message boards by callsign (or any other field). Then the "I've got nothing to hide" group can put anonymous people at the bottom.

[WB2WIK]

Not being a programmer (or ever having written a single line of code) I have no idea how to implement a fix that requires no ongoing human intervention. I'm a hardware guy stuck in a software world <grin>.

I am willing to donate $10 annually to keep the site running smoothly, if that's all it will take.

However, I think it is important to prevent postings from anyone not identifiable -- not only to the owner/sys op of the QRZ site, but to anyone who might be exposed to the post. Major magazines and newspapers publish no "letters to the editor," or op-ed pieces, or anything else, unless they have clearly identified the author and post his name, and usually his location, along with the piece. This has been the case for a very long time, and the tradition continues for good reason.

Personally, I couldn't care less if the QRZ owner/operator has this information -- I think we who are exposed to the posts, need to have it. Anyone not willing to identify himself should remain not only nameless and faceless but also voiceless and printless, as has been the case in the publishing community since words have been put to paper.

WB2WIK/6

[kb3eaa]

I for one would be willing to pay $10.00 to keep the site running smoothly. Now, how about if only those who pay and subscribe are given posting priveleges, but are still allowed to post anonomously to the public. Only the editors would know who it is. That should take care of all privacy concerns I can imagine. If the person is being innappropriate, then they can be banned, and lose ten bucks. They can lose ten bucks every time they re-register as someone else, and are banned again. If they do something illegal, then the editor has an effective tool (their identity) to deal with it.

[n3xp]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ae9b @ May 15 2002,05http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (nu7t @ May 13 2002,20:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Americans stand behind their beliefs.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Freedom has a price.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
#Posted: May 15 2002,05<!--emo&http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif6 #by # ae9b

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote (nu7t @ May 13 2002,20:13)
Americans stand behind their beliefs.

Freedom has a price. #
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

What about the users from Canada, United Kingdom, France, Germany, Mexico, Brazil, Taiwan, China, Japan, India, Italy, and all the other 340 some DX prefixes.

Is it the American thing for them to do?

The Internet has no borders. #This is a place where nationalism does not fit! #Please find another reason in favor of registered posting only, the American argument does not fit this example!

[n3xp]

Here is just a simple observation. Some of the people calling for callsigns only and need to know everyone's identity are themselves hiding something.

Take a look for yourself.

W6TH
W0NWA
KM6XU

Have all either made and argument for callsign use or supported someone else that cries for this.

My question for these three is as follows: Why are you using PO boxes as mailing address? I doubt very much you live inside a tiny box at the post office, so why not use the real address of where you live, where your station is set up?

The last thread of 250+ was too long to go through and check each person. Whats the deal guys (W6TH, W0NWA, KM6XU) you can't scream for openness yet desire anonymity by using a PO box!

Not a personal attack, just a question for the critics!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KB7TBT @ May 13 2002,20:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">you mention how to make this happen, it is simple..

make the registered users ALL HAMS..

they can make a user base id with you with there call sign, address and any other confermation you need to make sure that only hams post..but have the option to have a "handle" of "joe blow"..

make the info private to your database only.
:)[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
The original poster addresses this point in his article. #The reason he doesn't want to restrict posting to hams only because he does not want to turn away anyone who might want to get involved in ham radio.

[kc5nyo]

One more idea........................ take a clue from the Silicon Investor boards, create an IGNORE button. It's really handy, and you'll see no more posts from whomever you add to your ignore list. Mine has grown quite large.......... not because I'm not open to the free and open exchange of ideas, but because I don't care to read the endless drivel of certain posters. ; )

73, Mike
kc5nyo

[N8PCA]

Let the unregistered post. Just ignore them, as the previous post stated. End of hostilitys.

[m3icq]

Make all posting anonymous. Then everybody is equal and you have to read the whole message to see whether you agree instead of looking at the callsign and thinking "no-code CBer, I'll ignore it". If someone wanted to identify themselves then they could add this as a signature.

I AGREE,MAKE IT A RULE,THAT ALL USERS OF QRZ BE ANONOMOUS,IF PEOPLE ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO REMAIN ANONOMOUS,THEN THE LEAST THE OWNERS OF QRZ COULD DO IS ,THEIR CIVIC, AND MORAL,RESPONABILITY AND MAKE ALL POSTS ANONOMOUS !!!!!!! JUST MY .0000000000000000000002 CENTS WORTH. P.S. REMEMBER..... REMAIN ANONOMOUS,REMAIN SAFE,IF NOT FOR YOU ,FOR YOUR FAMILY !!!!!!!!!!!

[W1KLM]

Fred,

Why not require registration with a credit card number for verification of name/address like all the other limited access sites do? #de W1KLM

[jxs2151]

You want a great system that *really* works go take a look at the forums on Slashdot.org (http://slashdot.org)



They have, without a doubt, designed the most beautifully intelligent method of handling the forum issues that you describe. #They allow anonymous postings but use a system of Karma (http://slashdot.org/faq/com-mod.shtml#cm800) where moderators can raise or lower someones ability to post comments that can be seen. #It is essentially a feedback loop where the jerks get modded down and their posts soon no longer even show up, they end up beneath the radar so to speak because each user can specify at what level they wish to view comments. #A user with bad Karma posts at a low level and ends up beneath the radar. #An anonymous user posts at one level lower than registered users, so depending on how you set you preferences anonymous posts may not even show up. #

If you go there and look at the Moderation FAQ (http://slashdot.org/faq/com-mod.shtml#cm600) that describes the system I think you may agree that it is indeed wonderful and matches true life where jerks don't get listened to. #The intelligent geeks at Slashdot got it right. #I think they even license their forum engine.

In short, instead of getting upset and considering heavy-handed methods, just be smarter than the average anonymous poster.

[jxs2151]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (nu7t @ May 14 2002,05:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Americans stand behind their beliefs.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Which explains why many of the Founding Fathers 'posted' under pseudonyms.

The Federalist Papers were published under the pseudonym Publius. #Hamilton, Madison, and Jay had many reasons to 'post anonymously' and did so with frequency.

John Dickinson posted often under the false name of 'A Farmer'.

Charlotte Bronte, author of Jane Eyre, published under a male pseudonym.

It must have run in the family because sister Emily did the same with Wuthering Heights.

I could go on forever. #So before you react to the question about the so-called Shield Of Anonymity, think about the reasons such abilities might be useful. #Challenge qrz.com to answer the challenge of controlling the ill-effects of anonymous posting, instead of heavy-handidly quashing what could be the best thing to happen to online forums. #

To qrz.com: #I have yet to see a worthwhile forum that disabled anonymous posting. #Doing so sends a real negative message about your concern for an open forum for all opinions, free from the inhibiting effects of positive identification.

[K3VR]

"Anonymous pamphlets, leaflets, brochures and even books have played an important role in the progress of mankind. Great works of literature have frequently been produced by authors writing under assumed names. Despite readers' curiosity and the public's interest in identifying the creator of a work of art, an author generally is free to decide whether or not to disclose her true identity. The decision in favor of anonymity may be motivated by fear of economic or official retaliation, by concern about social ostracism, or merely by a desire to preserve as much of one's privacy as possible. Whatever the motivation may be, at least in the field of literary endeavor, the interest in having anonymous works enter the marketplace of ideas unquestionably outweighs any public interest in requiring disclosure as a condition of entry. Accordingly, an author's decision to remain anonymous, like other decisions concerning omissions or additions to the content of a publication, is an aspect of the freedom of speech protected by the First Amendment."

U.S. Supreme Court, McIntyre v. Ohio (1995)[B]

Between Ham radio operators i can't see any reason for annonymous, at first time when i found this site i make error and use my default nick(ODIGO,MSN,ICQ,YAHOO etc,) after than i see that i make error. Now i try logg on using my call sign but every post i finish using my call sign and name. This is not annonymous, only less experiance on this forum. I cannot say why other people use nick name http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif???

73 Zoky 9A3HP

So, what you're proposing comes down to this.....if you want free speech, you have to 'pay' for it. How American can you get. What a joke.

People are expressive entities. No matter what you may throw in as obstacles, those who are passionate about responding will find a way to do it. i would suggest that you quit chasing your tail and stop whining. Freedom comes with it's own price...you have to acknowledge others' thoughts and opinions. Deal with it.

[KB1GYQ]

If I had read the vitriol on this site earlier, I would not have gotten my license! (see "2 Meter's Catch 22" and any thread about "CW", "no-coder", "contesting", "CBers", etc.) I will not pay for access. However, Fred, do as you see fit, it is your property.

I guess I just don't get it. Ham radio is NOTand annonymous hoby. Every time we give our call on the air we are being very public. Most of us want our telephone numbers published in the phone book so that others can find us. Many of us have vanity plates on our cars. Many hams join clubs and do high profile work at local events using their radios. When we put up antennas on our cars or at our houses, we are, whether we like it or not, drawing attention to ourselves.

I have never,never given my opinion on some subject on the air and then not given my call sign at the end of my transmission to avoid "privacy problems". Not to say that I am in the habit of using Ham radio for a soap box, but everyone has on occasion expressed him/her self on some issue .

To worry about a ham in China not being able to express himself openly is, I believe really stretching tomaketheir point! We can only begin to solve our own problems, and tying ourselves in knots trying to solve all foreseeable problems will get the QRZ site nowhere!

Let only hams with call signs give their opinion about ham radio issues. What the difference between a ham going on the air and expressing an opinion and going on the net as I am doing now somehow escapes me.

O K, so Joe blow could go on this forum I suppose and use my call, but he could just as easily do so on the air.

Eugene
K7CEC


.

[W0BKR]

Basically, from what I have read and seen on this site and others with individuals who post without a callsign, they post flaming posts or flame someone then dive under the covers to hide.

Since this is an Amateur related site, mandate the use of valid callsigns. Else, go to a chat room somewhere and have at it.

I choose not to respond to non-callsign posts or individuals that act inappropriately either here or on the air. Makes the hobby much more enjoyable when the QRM is removed or ignored. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[AA7BQ]

A consolidation reply to many postings before this:

* QRZ is a fine site, but I would not pay for it.
Hmmm. #You have just posted your opinion to tens of thousands of people, on equipment that I have spent tens of thousands of dollars and thousands of hours of my own time# building. #With an opinion like that I'd expect you to also say: "I'll gladly stay at your house, eat your food, and watch your TV, but I won't pay for it.".

* Why not just IGNORE the garbage postings?
A 12 year-old comes to our site and the first thing he sees is a raving soliloquy of assorted four-letter words, racial slurs, sexual innuendos, and full color photo attachments of teenagers engaged in beastiality. #Kind of hard to ignore those, I'd say. It's the sort of stuff that only an anonymous poster would dare post. #Make no mistake about it because things like that DO get posted here when we aren't looking and they remain completely visible to the world until a moderator happens to come along to remove it.

* Why not just get a bunch of aggressive moderators?
Two problems: first, the post must exist before it can be moderated. #Once it exists, it can be viewed. #The only workaround for that is to require moderator approval on ALL posts, something that would slow down the site considerably. Secondly, it's hard to find good, consciencious moderators who don't become intoxicated with power and/or start bullying people around. #Moderators aren't supposed to shape the tone of the site, only police it.

* Why not go to a self-moderating system like Slashdot?
Slashdot is absolutely the best thing we've seen for techies, programmers, scientists, engineers, etc.. #You don't see too many truck drivers, housewives, or investment bankers in there, however. #That's because it's TOO COMPLICATED for the average non-technical person. #We used an early version of slashdot here for over a year and our mailbox was constantly overflowing with questions regarding its use, and even its language. #By the very nature of our broad user demographic, we needed something that was both simple and powerful.

* Why not add [insert a new feature here] to the system?
It's pretty darn difficult to add major new features to our forum. #That's because it's a commercial software package that wasn't designed for QRZ in the first place. #The last time I upgraded the QRZ system software my first step was to buy a new computer to run it on. #Only then could I build up the new software layer-by-layer. #Most folks don't realize that there are ZERO commercial software packages that do everything that QRZ does including the callsign database management. #Also, I've already filled up my computer room and can't afford to add another machine because our air conditioning can't absorb any additional load.

On a positive note, we have learned a lot from this discussion and are still looking for ways to provide better quality service at a reasonable cost of convenience to the end users.

cheers,

-fred

[WB5RVV]

I like the ideal of giving a credit card number for you to have on file. That will help. I notice in my everyday life,
the people that do not want to give that little tid bit of info usually have something to hide. I am not afraid to give out my SS number if nessacary. So, require a c. card and charge $20 will be fine. These days, alot of people want something for nothing. Not me, I understand. Come
on folks, think of someone else instead of just yourself. We were put on this earth to get along .Thanks Fred.

[jxs2151]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (aa7bq @ May 22 2002,01:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">* Why not go to a self-moderating system like Slashdot?
Slashdot is absolutely the best thing we've seen for techies, programmers, scientists, engineers, etc.. #You don't see too many truck drivers, housewives, or investment bankers in there, however. #That's because it's TOO COMPLICATED for the average non-technical person. #[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I think the fact that you feel that Ham Radio Operators are too stupid to understand a moderation system says all we need to know about the future (and the past) of Amateur Radio.

Slashdot is not complicated if one cares to RTFM.

I came to the boards on QRZ to escape what any reasonable person would agree, is the filth on the usenet hamradio groups. #Judging from the rancor displayed on qrz.com, it will soon be joining the newsgroups. # I am a huge proponent of discussion and disagreement but I have never seen arguments that lack a basic consideration for a fellow man like I have seen between hams. #While discussing ideas is great for growth, the type of virulent arguments you see in Ham Radio is driving away more people than you could possibly imagine.

I'll head back over to slashdot.org (http://slashdot.org) and enjoy mature, intelligent discussions in a system that limits one's exposure to kiddies and those with kiddie-like behavior.

Ya, ya, I know- good riddance. #Whatever.....

When i become a Ham radio operator,,,,,
Yes it is esencial question, Ham radio operator can't be anonymous, why, in the QSO we excange name , QTH, RST and more than common information. Also we excange a QSL card(with complete adress and other data). So why some of member are anonymous? i can't se reason.
And yes when i become a Ham radio operator i accept that can't stay anonymous, every time when i turn on my radio i am ready to say about me. No secret.

[KF4OUI]

I do not think that anonymous users should be banned from posting. The potential for abuse is not a valid reason to prevent someone who wants to be a ham from having full use of this site. In my area, people that are preparing for their technician exam are told about this site so that can take practice tests - if these potential new hams wish to post a message they should be able to do so. Shutting them out because they do not have a license yet is not in the spirt of this hobby.

Also - if someone really wants to act like a fool on this site, and "anonymous" logins are prevented from all areas of this site, the abusers will simply pirate a legit callsign.

Firstly, this is GM6MEN, Paul Thompson, from Scotland - details under that callsign in the callsign database. I happen to have registered under a nickname (for innocent reasons given elsewhere).

Secondly I would like to remind NU7T that Americans didn't invent standing by one's beliefs. No slight against Americans is intended, but we Scots can claim the same, as can the folk of whatever nationality who go by the same "nickname" as I do (and they were renowned for it before there ever was a USA).

Thirdly, the answer is simple. It lies within the response given by the QRZ.COM spokesman, and it has nothing to do with anonymity, or with paying money, or with registering with a callsign. Identify the trouble-maker, whether he is anonymous or not, see if he has a problem which can be resolved gently, and if not expel him. No need for any further soul-searching or argument, no need for excluding people by category (a totally wrong principle, as the history of Nazi Germany proves - we hams do not want to go down that road, we are inclusive and welcoming).

Fourthly, and finally - time for us all to lighten up, and go back to enjoying ham radio and swl, to appreciate the fine, free service we get from QRZ.COM.

# #73 to everyone, especially to those who disagree with me.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # Paul

[n3uea]

I agree with those who say "Ignore offensive posts". Don't give the boneheads the satisfaction of a response.
Chris B, N3UEA

[K9TOY]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n3uea @ May 26 2002,03:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I agree with those who say "Ignore offensive posts". #Don't give the boneheads the satisfaction of a response.
Chris B, N3UEA[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Couln't agree more . People who don't have the backbone to put in their real names should not be allowed.It's a waste of time #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[N5JOB]

Come on, man!

I haven't seen anything so bad on here that would warrant any kind of severe action like charging fees.

The day it costs me money to come on here is the day I won't come on here. I know you don't care, but that's what I would do.

This is just a radio site. Therefore, in the long run, it's not THAT important. There are a lot of radio sites..

The solution is simple. If anyone gets bothered by someone, the best rule is to IGNORE it, remembering that ANYONE can say ANYTHING about ANYONE and it does NOT mean that it is TRUE.

[w6dce]

No callsign.. no credibility.. Until such time as you people stop hiding behind your silly little nicknames, you get NO respect from me whatsoever.

As far as I am concerned, your just another funny voice jackoff, or anonymous jammer. If you wanna have cutsie little names... go back to CB where you belong.

I obviously am a very outspoken individual, but as you will notice, I place MY callsign out there and if you were to go look it up you would find that my info is there and it isn't some silly PO box.

Grow up people.. If your afraid of your hobby, it is time to get a new hobby...

[kd5rpo]

It seems to me that the most implementable method at this time would be to charge a site fee for anyone who wants to post anonymously. Credit cards are an option, but a check or money order option should be available.
Not a perfect solution, but it seems like it could help.

KD5RPO Albuquerque #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[KF4OUI]

No callsign no credibility huh? I suppose you were granted your license when you were a fetus. There was never a time in your life when you did not have a callsign..

What about the people who do not have a license yet but are trying to get one? What if they want to come to this site to post a question? I suppose they should be banned because they have no credibility huh. What a great way to say to a prospective ham "welcome to the club - now GO AWAY!".

The idea of ham radio is that we are a community within a society. In theory, there is goodwill among all radio operators. This site should reflect the idea that this is an open community. Can people take advantage of this? Yes they can - but then again I could go to a callsign lookup site, type in a common first name and get hundreds of valid callsigns along with full names and an address. Armed with this info, someone so inclined could then get a login to this site and post a bunch of noise.

No matter what you do, people so inclined will figure out a way around the system. If you do not like it - the only thing you can do to insulate yourself is to quit using this site. By the way, this is EXACTLY what the noisemakers want you to do. If you want to let them win that is your business. As for me, I plan to keep using this site. I will also continue to tell people seeking a license about this site so they can take practice tests.

The BEST thing you can do about noisemakers is to IGNORE THEM - but many people simply cannot do this. They post the crap they post to cause trouble. This whole thread encourages abusive activity, because it gives the unwanted users the feedback they desire! If they never see any threads like this one, they realise that all their efforts were for NOTHING and they go away.

-- James KF4OUI

No callsign.. no credibility.. Until such time as you people stop hiding behind your silly little nicknames, you get NO respect from me whatsoever.
As far as I am concerned, your just another funny voice jackoff, or anonymous jammer. If you wanna have cutsie little names... go back to CB where you belong.

[W0BKR]

If you can't be man enough to stand behind your postings with a "legal" reference such as a callsign, or real name, then you don't belong on here posting your inflammatory postings to begin with. Those individuals post and run and enjoy the bantering afterwards. Kinds like the c**p that went on 14.313, 3.895 and other frequencies for years and years. I have seen plenty to get individuals banned from this site (i.e. name calling, inflammatory bashings, off color remarks, threats, etc.). The reason you might not see them is the moderators usually remove the trash and take it out with the garbage. Thanks moderators! The bit about freedom of speech and all that BS is just that, BS!

I don't feel sorry for individuals that whine about a website's position such as this, anymore then I feel sorry for those lids that make stupid comments on top of QSO's, etc. without ID-ing and get busted by the FCC down the road. #

I think the populous has spoken. #You want to hide behind a bogus name, then you really belong on another board or chatroom somewhere, or better yet, on channel 19. #

As to the comments made on 20/75 meters, that doesnt' hold water with me. #Any comments or whinings are probably from the same impotent and dysfunctional individuals that can't hide on here. #Ask for some cheese with that whine and make a sandwich. #I doubt there is much of a following.

Thanks Fred/Glen for sticking to your standards and setting a standard here that will more likely improve the quality and responses to postings seen on here in the future!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[jxs2151]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif3--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (w6dce @ May 29 2002,16http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif3)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...it is time to get a new hobby...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
In case you haven't noticed, many of us are finding a new hobby.

[jxs2151]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (w6dce @ May 29 2002,16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you wanna have cutsie little names... go back to CB where you belong.

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>



Not all of us have our entire identity tied up in three to five letters and a number. #If we choose to have 'cutsie little names' it is most likely because losers whose whole life is ham radio make us a little embarrassed.


</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (w6dce @ May 29 2002,16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
I obviously am a very outspoken individual, but as you will notice, I place MY callsign out there and if you were to go look it up you would find that my info is there and it isn't some silly PO box. #

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Oooooohhhh....how brave and bold of you! #How *can* the rest of us stack up? #Please take a moment and get over yourself......

[jxs2151]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W0BKR @ May 31 2002,16:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you can't be man enough to stand behind your postings with a "legal" reference such as a callsign, or real name, #then you don't belong on here posting your inflammatory postings to begin with. #[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Again, someone who equates posting a callsign with being a man. #I hate to break it to ya' but there is much more to being a man than being willing to post callsigns. #If your manhood is wrapped up in your callsign, I feel sorry for you.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W0BKR @ May 31 2002,16:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
The bit about freedom of speech and all that BS is just that, BS![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Spoken like a true constitutional scholar. #Whatsa matter, everything you cannot comprehend becomes BS? #What a way to go through life........

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W0BKR @ May 31 2002,16:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
I think the populous has spoken. #You want to hide behind a bogus name, then you really belong on another board or chatroom somewhere, or better yet, on channel 19. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Perhaps you meant populace (http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entries/78/p0447800.html)? #I think that trying to make something fait accompli and declaring that 'The People Have Spoken' in order to end the discussion is rather presumptious on your part. #However, if indeed the populous (sic) has spoken, the rest of us will take our anononymity elsewhere and leave QRZ.com to the ranters and code zealots. #You guys have fun!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W0BKR @ May 31 2002,16:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Ask for some cheese with that whine and make a sandwich. #[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Are you able to speak in anything other than tired cliches?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W0BKR @ May 31 2002,16:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Thanks Fred/Glen for sticking to your standards and setting a standard here that will more likely improve the quality and responses to postings seen on here in the future![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Now we are back to the standards stuff. #I should have known right here what sort of posting this was. #The same type who didn't want SSB, Codeless Tech, 'Extra-Lite', etc. #The old 'stay out of my hobby if you don't want to go by my ancient standards, why is everyone leaving ham radio' argument. #You have nothing that substantiates your claim of improved quality with eliminating anonymous posting. #It is your opinion and that's it. #And stating your opinion in a belligerent, aggressive manner does not make it any more valid, just more obnoxious.

[KC2JNP]

Well, On the subject. Im not sure if anyone else has said this or not. I don't have the time to read through all of this thread at the moment. But perhaps my 2 cents might be useful.

If all of the addresses such as hotmail.com, yahoo.com etc etc were to be denied access and any current address'ees with these same sources were given the option to use a regular isp and have it set to private. You would perhaps see a decrease in the trouble causing users that don't want to risk there internet service. I am an Administrator for an IRC chat network. And on occasion. Have had to contact an ISP and report abusive users. Several times the ending result was the loss of there ISP.

Saddly, there are people out there who get a rise out of causing trouble and getting a reaction. Like trying to get banned from a message board. If they have no real interest, and just want to cause trouble. Removing them from the message board will not mean little to anything at all.

The only other thing I can think of that could change. Would be by changing the registration process. Currently, I "could" register a number of non call sign names and use a yahoo or hotmail address and go around causing trouble. Back in the days of 2400/14.4 baud modems and BBS's... There were simmilar methods to whats used now at QRZ. Instead of e-mail. A new user on a BBS might of had to supply information that could be checked. Such as a phone number. Other than this. One could impliment a "SASE" format. Where a new user could send a self addressed stamped envelope and snail mail there verification of who they are.

This would add time on to the process of getting access to the message boards. Making the trouble maker to have to work and then also wait before he or she can make any trouble.

Which ever will end up working best. Will most likely be the option that dosn't cost more money to QRZ.com, and will not require alot of time to be taken up.

So for now, I will return the message board back to regular amature use and say 73's...

Bryan / KC2JNP

[KG8XG]

Sorry, but it now sounds to me that the whole subject was brought up to justify subscription fees for QRZ. #I hope this is not the case as it would be quite a disapointment. #

The appearance is that you have turned a non-issue that has existed for years into a tremendous problem that can only be effectively deal with by charging subscription fees.

Do what you feel you need to but do it up front and honestly. #

John - KG8XG

[jxs2151]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KC2JNP @ June 01 2002,19<!--emo&http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Back in the days of 2400/14.4 baud modems and BBS's... There were simmilar methods to whats used now at QRZ. Instead of e-mail. A new user on a BBS might of had to supply information that could be checked. Such as a phone number. Other than this. One could impliment a "SASE" format. Where a new user could send a self addressed stamped envelope and snail mail there verification of who they are.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Which explains a lot about the recent success of BBS's

[kc9bcy]

if it's deathly thwarting the future survival of the site, i can understand paid subscriptions... i mean fred is right... #i tried to run a dialup bbs, for a couple months before the hardware got something spilled on it and crashed, so i got a limited experiance in the processes involved, and it's really the ONLY way on the internet to reasonably identify them is by their number, that can, in case of fraud, be billed for dammages, thus, Honest People! #yeah, people can move, change their address, use a fake address and credit card too... but, who'd wanna risk what that could bring, just to post some oblique statement here... i've not been palgued by any un-kosher posts, since i've been here... probably because they are mostly mine, but still... i believe


That the internet should remain .... "As Free as possible" #

screw Nay sayers, and in fact, give them a chance to speak up... theres no reason their oppinion doesn't matter as much as any of ours... however, they may not know how to express themselves in a way the ham community understands... so ask em, promt them for more, find out what's really burning their soul... or whatever they may or maynot have, i find, once outkasts are accepted into a community, they tend to contribute, rather than try to destroy it! # i was an outkast once... on the Citizens band, then i wasn't, now everybody around here is... cause i suppose they had it comming! #that's just a loose knit community of a couple of ''buddys'' that think they can screw eachother and still talk to 'em every day on the radio... WRONG

leave the riff raff to GOD, vengence is his! #if it's not bothering me, it's probably not bothering 100,000 of the other subscribers... but that's not to say, we're the kind of people this site is for either... so simply, i guess, what i'm trying to say,is, i don't subscribe to internet, or on-line services, so, if you'd like to chance losing my humble oppinion, in the mix, then by all means, find something to knit pick about... but, i'd like to see, some of the annonymous posts, perhaps they've been removed or something before i get here, so i don't know what the program is... i'd even offer, with the time i have on my hands to remove all the anonymous posts that aren't "kosher" with everybodys beliefs... perhaps i'll go back and read the QRZ mission statement... anywho
that's all i have to ad...

Hope that clears things up...
lattah!
-

[KD4LEI]

I would have to agree with KG8XG.

This is just another one of those sites that is posing the (seeminly unimposing but IS imposing) question of what to do in this case. To me it's nothing more than "covertly" finding out if they should make this a pay site.

This will equal my non-return to site the moment it starts, if I have to pay for its use via membership.

[KI5IO]

Fred,

Your site is fantastic and provides a great service. #All the work that you do to make it happen is extraordinary. #Most folks don't fully understand what all it takes to make such happen as seamlessly as it does.

It is unfortunate that people in today's society can't simply be nice and respect one another with good ethics and standards.

My Dad and Mom taught me to be respectful of everyone and work within ethical standards. #I have lived my life with such an attitude ... unfortunately many in the world do not.

A lot of people are like many of today's youngsters who have no ethics, demand that everything be given to them, have expectations that the world owes them without them having to have any skin in the game. #The "me, me, me" syndrome.

Hang in there and please keep up the good work. #If it comes to the qrz.com site needing $ to help minimize the problem-children I will be more than glad to participate.

Cheers,

KI5IO
Nolan K.