Police Question Ham Radio Use [Archive]

kb3eaa

05-12-2002, 02:28 AM

It was late winter in Newtown, a small community in Southeastern PA, close to the Delaware River. #My wife and I were looking for each other, while doing some shopping on the main drag. #I heard "KB3EAA, this is KB3GYO", on my VX5R. #I turned as I replied, only to see her wave at me and smile. #She was just 50 feet away, her blue dress suit silhouetting her against the brightly flowered storefront. #I laughed and ran across the street to her, giving her a big hug and kiss. #

Just then I heard an angry shout from the road. #"WHAT ARE YOU DOING" the scowl faced policeman demanded. #I looked over at him, still in his car, as he stared at our offending radios. "We are Ham radio operators", I replied respectfully, although publicly embarrassed by his accusatory tone. #"WHY are you using them here" he then demanded. #"We are HAM radio operators, and we are talking to each other", I replied. #He looked peeved, as his shouts echoed off of the surrounding brick facades- #"You're not from around here are you-- you have to expect to be questioned if you do that sort of thing around here. #People don't know what you are doing". #"We are HAM radio operators" I replied, "and THAT"S what we're doing"! #He drove off, while my shocked wife and I stood staring. #

I walked over to the Police station, hoping to find the Chief, and do a little educating. #I was told that someone had found my wife and I to be suspicious, and notified the police of our radio "activity", thus the questioning. I said that the officer had acted improperly, by shouting at us that way in public, and that if his attitude was indeed warranted, then he could have also gotten out of his car to confront us. #On the other hand, if we were not really suspicious, then why the embarrassing scene? #The Chief was gone for the day, so I made a copy of my Ham license and R.A.C.E.S. id card, with a note bearing my phone number and a request that he give me a call, which he never did, even though I followed up by leaving him another message a week later.

Not too long after, I stopped a gas station, where an aged East Indian attendant commented on the ATAS-100 antenna on my car roof. #He asked if I was with the government. #I told him I was not, but that as HAM operator, and that I would use my equipment in defense of my country and government if need be, for this is a primary purpose of the Amateur Radio Service in this country. #He told me that in his country, only the government would be allowed such things. #

Now, I'm not up on the state of Amateur rules in India or Pakistan or wherever he was from, but the point is that this was how he was taught to think over there. #Those who may communicate must be specially privileged, or part of the military. #I reflected on the great privileges we as Americans enjoy, and felt a little self-conscious there with this humble man, who was willing to view me as an authority, simply because of my nice new car and roof rig. #

I suppose I might have been able to educate the officer on the importance HAM radio in public service, had I actually expected to be questioned. #I would have been ready, instead of offended. #But the continued need to over-explain ones legal activity in order to forego further interrogation is not an indicator of progressive social development. #The Gulag was stuffed full of good Russians who were eager to further explain their innocence. #Problem was though, that they had ridden there on the wheels of their initial explanation. #I have to ask also, why the police were unaware of the irreplaceable role that Amateur radio had played during 911, in a town only 1-hour drive south of NYC? #At least the gas station attendant assumed we were legit.
Let's not let it happen here.

kc0mdc

05-13-2002, 09:56 PM

It's an undeniable fact that people will almost always question that which they do not know. #To see a cellular antenna on a vehicle is becoming normal, to see a number of items hanging off of a vehicle is intriguing to most. #I've had the opportunity to educate a number of people about amateur radio by answering their curiosities about the antennaes on my vehicle or the HT sitting on my desk in my office, and I do see this as an opportunity http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif # In the past, anybody who was walking around carrying a radio was considered to be someone of importance or responsibility. #With technology allowing us to carry smaller radios, people will still be inclined to ask, 'What's that for, are you a cop?' #Truth is, while many of my friends didn't understand either, as the tornado sirens went off in our town a couple of weeks ago, they were calmed by the idea that I knew what was going on. #They realize now that my radio isn't about me being important, but it's about a hobby and public service. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Tim #kc0mdc

kg4rrv

05-13-2002, 10:51 PM

I'm sorry that you were treated that way. It may of had nothing to do with your using radios. Some police officers act like that to everyone. I was yelled at and questioned for walking through a bad part of town. They saw a middle aged white guy and a mostly African-American neighborhood and assumed I was there to cause trouble. They know one thing. They have the guns and the badges and you arn't crap campared to them. Therefore they treat you that way. That is why this type of behavior needs to be reported. I'm not a cop hater. My dad is a F.H.P. Good police should be honored, but there is no room in this country for crooked cops.

73 K7BEN

kb2vuq

05-13-2002, 10:58 PM

Today, there are many people using the
$19.00 and up Family Radio Service radios
on UHF.

Children, families, small busineses and
social organizations are using them
as short range coomunicators.

Being unlicensed devices, they make an
easy to purchase and operate tool
for people who choose not to get an
amateur license.
No testing, no fees. Pretty simple.

However...
There are other types of people using
them too. We call them criminals.
Home invaders, car thieves, burglars,
drug dealers and professional
shoplifting teams to name a few.

Being that these "radios" look very much
like the HT's we hams use, you just have
to keep in mind that the police are more
accustomed to the criminal usage of
these radios as the other tools of the
criminal trade.

My wife (KC2GXN) and I (KB2VUQ) are both
hams and use a pair of VX-5R's for short range
communications, from time to time.

We've been "casually" asked several times
about our radios. We don't take it personally,
as we simply reply "we are licensed ham radio
operators" .

Since the events of 9/11/2001,
you really can't question the motives of
the curious ones.
They are just as concerned about national
security and homeland defense as we are!

As hams, we are trained in emergency
communications and procedures.
The average citizens are not.

They are simply told to report anything
suspicious to the authorities.

Pick up a phone and call the police.

That's probably what happpened to you.

Of course, the police officer responded
the way he was trained.

He investigated the report of suspicious
people with radios.

Upon arrival, he found the two people
the caller decsribed.

If you'll refer to the earlier sentence of
the people he usually runs into
with those radios...criminals,
you can understand his attitude.

His department and Chief needs the re-education
about amateur radio.

Then it might trickle down to his level.
Coming from higher authority than a
previously reported suspicious person
may change things.

Until then, I'll just keep letting
the police and citizens do what
they feel is right.

Maybe we can avoid another 9/11/2001
if our new sense of national pride,
awareness and civic duty keep up.

Don't take it personally, just smile.

Best Regards,
Dennis

05-14-2002, 12:27 AM

It seems that in some places, local officials welcome the Amateur Radio Operator with open arms, while in other places, they have absolutley no use at all for them.

My suggestion would be to see if you could invite them to field day. Of course if your is a community where elected officials have no use for ham radio, then probably not worth the effort. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

wa2poc

05-14-2002, 12:33 AM

Let us not forget the old saw "the longest trip in the world begins with a single step." This applies to the matter at hand as well. The total disappearance of our freedoms begins with a small incursion into those freedoms. To the extent that we accept or justify the actions of that policement, we are accepting a diminution of our rights and our freedoms. He had ABSOLUTELY no right to treat you the way he did. To question you? OK. I'll accept that much. But no-one, to the best of my knowledge, has amended the constitution to appoint the poilce and the judiaciary to the position of God. We simply CANNOT accept such actions, no matter how seemingly "innocent" or "unimportant" they may be. If we are not constantly alert, if we are not constantly willing to fight back, we will enjoy no freedom.

k0xu

05-14-2002, 12:34 AM

MB - check your attitude.
>So you go the police station with an attitude. You >wrote:
>"...do a little educating..." What an arrogant bastard >you are. I am not one to cow-tow to authority, but I >have the commnon sense to know that you do NOT >walk into a police station expecting to educate THEM. >No, the useful attitude would have been to walk in >there, ready to ask enough questions to determine why >there was any issue at all with what you were doing.

When I am accosted in a public place by someone with an attitude I tend to reply with a like attitude. If I am asked politely what I am doing I answer politely, if I am asked rudely, I will answer less politely. If I percieve that maybe a minion of the law is operating with less than average tact I may just talk to his superior. With an attitude like that he is a danger to himself and those around him.

Jim

wb9hnj

05-14-2002, 12:51 AM

Folks we may as well face it...on 9-11 the terrorists won the war...we as a country have never been more afraid of our own shadow and of our neighbors. We wave flags in the daylight and #### our guns at night. If you are doing something such as talking on a HT in public where someone doesnt understand what it is with Mr. Bush's national security force you're likely going to get questioned about it. Everything has changed...we now have terror instilled in our hearts....a war won.

N2INC

05-14-2002, 12:52 AM

Congratulations. Ever wonder why non-hams regard some amateurs as unusual, egocentric or even disheveled? (been to a hamfest lately?)
Answer the officers question. Keep your hands in plain view. Produce the requested documents when asked.
Until you have worked a district, whether in a city or the country, you really don't have a clue.
He has the obligation to put himself between danger and the citizen. He runs to remedy situations that would cause you to wet yourself.
Shut up, get over it and be nice next time.

Been there, done that.Cops have to protect whiners too.

KB9YFI

05-14-2002, 01:12 AM

Let me zee your paperz ya? Heil! Heil! Heil! What purpose is your assemblage here? We have wayz of deeeling with people like you Herr attitude! To the Gulag with you! Supreme leader will be pleased with me for crushing the spirit of those who fear him!

Looks like the terrorists won to me.

k8tmk

05-14-2002, 01:13 AM

A year or so ago officers in two area township police departments confiscated amateur walkie talkies that were just lying on the passenger seat beside the drivers (its legal for hams to carry scanners in their vehicles here in Michigan).

After some conversation (perhaps because a local judge is a ham), the radios were returned with letters of apology.

Even though the law says we are legal anyway, Michigan State Police offer an easy-to-get permit for those who may want a little more proof.

In another recent event, a ham friend was stopped in a mall parking lot in Mishawaka Indiana for talking on his radio while driving. The officer indicated that they were cracking down on drivers using cell phones while driving (even though it wasn't a law yet!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. The officer was advised that it was not a cell phone, but he said that didn't matter. Nothing more came of the confrontation, but I guess some officers have nothing better to do than enforce non-existent laws on private property!

KG4SXJ

05-14-2002, 01:20 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n2inc @ May 13 2002,20:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Congratulations. Ever wonder why non-hams regard some amateurs as unusual, egocentric or even disheveled? (been to a hamfest lately?)
Answer the officers question. Keep your hands in plain view. Produce the requested documents when asked.
Until you have worked a district, whether in a city or the country, you really don't have a clue.
He has the obligation to put himself between danger and the citizen. He runs to remedy situations that would cause you to wet yourself.
Shut up, get over it and be nice next time.

Been there, done that.Cops have to protect whiners too.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
N2INC, ever thought about bieng nice... I was a policeman there is no excuse for bad manners. Amature radio is a hobby whether its spelled HAM or ham dosen't really matter it's how we treat one another. As amature radio operators we should be more mindfull of each other it's a hobby for some for the rest of us it's alot more....

05-14-2002, 01:40 AM

MY SKYWARN STICKER GOT MY MOM OUT OF A HEAVY TICKET..........................BUT THAT WAS A CITY AWAY. HERE IN WATAUGA, A COP ASK ME WHAT I'M DOING (HOW OFTEN DO YOU SEE A 12 YR. OLD WITH 5 HT'S ON HIS BELT?) BUT I REPLY TO THEM NICELY, AND WALK OFF.............. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

w6th

05-14-2002, 02:04 AM

I stopped at a 7-11 store to get 2 cups of cappuccino for my xyl and myself. #A man came over and asked if I lived on West 6th street.

# # Little is known as to license plates, even in California.
# # # # # # # # # # #73, #W6th

kc9bnj

05-14-2002, 02:09 AM

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I am a new ham, but have been around amateur radio for
over 6 years. I was recently stopped by a cop. The officer
approched me at the gas station then asked me why I had so many radio's then asked me if I was upt to something. I calmly explained to him that I am a licensed ham radio operator. He then asked me to place everything I had on my belt on the trunk of his car. I placed me cellphone, ADI 2meter HT, ADI 440 HT, as well as my company radio. He proceeded to take the batteries off my radios, then asked me what I was planing to do with all these radios. I calmly explained to him once again that I was a Licensed Ham Radio Operator. After being there for 45minutes, and him basically embarrassing me infront of people there at the gas station, I decided to show him my license. He proceeded to look at my license, handed them back, and told me to leave. I picked my radio's up and got in my mothers car and left. I got no apology from the officer and I feel i should had. I am not one to judge but it has seemed recently that some people are closed minded when it comes to Amateur Radio.

73's
KC9BNJ

k5adf

05-14-2002, 02:46 AM

I agree with a previous response. The police were acting in a disrespectful manner. A friendlier tone usually results in a non-defensive response. We have a right to pursue our lives in a private manner without having to explain to any authority what we are doing or why as long as we are obeying the current laws. Using a HT in public is not against the law. When we allow the police to stop anyone for any reason and question what they are doing, where they have been or where they are going, then we have taken a giant step towards a totalian government. We cannot allow this to happen.

I remember in University in the early 70's when students would reword the bill of rights, a cornerstone of our freedom, in the current language, place it on a petition and stand in a public place asking people to sign it. Many would refuse since it was too "radical". How quickly people would give up our fundamental rights and for what? The events of last September were horrible, but let us not let them win by giving up our rights and creating a police state.

kc0mdc

05-14-2002, 04:37 AM

I posted a response earlier in the thread, but after reading some of these other ones I'm a bit discouraged about our ham community. #I'm relatively new to amateur radio, and part of the reason I got into it was for public service and the friendships that can be made. #I don't understand the hostility in some of the previous postings. #Calling each other bastards and such is no way to preserve our beloved hobby. #MANYpeople don't understand amateur radio, just like alot of other things in our lives. #If somebody questions it, try to educate them. #If they'll have nothing of the kind, so be it. #Alot of people get defensive in what they believe is an unusual situation (someone walking around with an unusual radio), it's human nature. #Just because someone is ignorant or just plain doesn't understand something, is that good reason to create an altercation...I don't think so, or we'd be at each other's throats everyday http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif . # #Relax, enjoy the hobby, let's stay off each others throat and educate so that we can preserve our hobby for a long long time.

kc9bnj

05-14-2002, 04:44 AM

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I agree. I wasnt calling anyone out of thier name.
I do try to educate.

73's

KC9BNJ

ke4pjw

05-14-2002, 05:08 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kb2vuq @ May 12 2002,16:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">However...
There are other types of people using
them too. We call them criminals.
Home invaders, car thieves, burglars,
drug dealers and professional
shoplifting teams to name a few.

Being that these "radios" look very much
like the HT's we hams use, you just have
to keep in mind that the police are more
accustomed to the criminal usage of
these radios as the other tools of the
criminal trade.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Most tools can be used in the criminal trade.

Somehow I doubt simply using an HT is what aroused this officer's suspicion of him.

When visiting Clingman's Dome in the Great Smokey Mountains, I was standing in the parking lot below the Dome' with my 70cm HT with a 10 element Yagi. One of the park police crused up and asked "What are you doing?", kind of abruptly. I replied, "Talking to a guy in Athens, Georgia.". He gave a big grin and said "We need one of those, our radios don't work half the time.".

-- Terry

wd4oay

05-14-2002, 05:08 AM

As both a Police Officer (Florida Highway Patrol State Trooper) and an Amateur Radio Operator, I can see both sides of the saga here. I have a small mobile rig (10 Meter HTX-10) in my patrol car and I try to educate not only the people on the road about amateur radio but my fellow officers too. You have to remember that Amateur Radio is not as well-known or as prevalent as it was some years ago and its amazing that many people in the law enforcement community have no idea what it is all about. Here in the Miami area, local Amateurs in several clubs are actively involved with service projects and emergency coodination with law enforcement and Fire Rescue. The main way to educate Police and Fire personnel is by getting involved yourself!. Find out about community meetings with law enforcement or public service officials and prepare a presentation describing how you as an Amateur Radio Operator can be of service and then get out there in do it! Help with emergency coodintation drills, get involved in public service activities, provide communications facilities for public events like parades and community picnics where law enforcement and other Public Services can see what we do! That is how to "educate." http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Most of all 'tho - - -

Actively promote Ham Radio by example - Not just words!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

05-14-2002, 05:25 AM

It is NOT a matter of the authority to ask questions. It IS a matter of the right of a policeman (or anyone else) to make an assumption, draw a conclusion and act with disrepect and disregard for individual rights. I have a nephew who is an NYPD officer and I served three years' commissioned service during Viet-Nam when it was extremely unpopular to be serving in the army as a volunteer. I am patriotic and would probably be viewed as being conservative. It is exactly for those reasons that I refuse to allow the police or anyone else to assume a position of superiority to the very people they are sworn to protect. They have no more right to be paranoid than do any of us "civilians."

For God's sake, don't let the terrorists win. If we accept what happened without questioning the officer's authority to act in this way to these two people, we give the terrorirsts the ballgame.

n7wsb

05-14-2002, 05:37 AM

Here in Oregon (portland mostly) - I've actually seen the cops look the other way on my traffic violations. I'm not sure if its because ham plates here look like civil service plates (yellow with blue letters) or its because they like ham radio operators.

All this despite the fact that my car gets the wierdest looks at the grocery store parking lot. Someone said my car looks like it belongs in the mafia.

Once too - someone thought I was into listening to cell phones because I had my arrow antenna in the back seat (I must admit it looks odd) along with the FT-51R.

But I have yet to be pulled over or harassed by the cops for the crime of being an amateur radio operator.

Personally I would have taken down their names and reported them to their supervisor and maybe write a letter to the city. People are not guilty until proven innocent in America. You shouldn't have to own up to any questions unless there is an active investigation going on, or you are being accused of a crime.

K5MAR

05-14-2002, 05:53 AM

Whatever else transpired during this "event", the initial error was on the part of the officer. #If he found their behavior suspicious, instead of yelling from his unit, he should have gotten out of his car and either called them over, or approached them on foot. #Apparently he didn't find them too suspicious, since yelling at them from his car would have caused a real criminal to run, as any good law enforcement officer would know. #One of the things I was taught while a police dispatcher was to be polite to the citizens. #The motto is "To Protect and To Serve", and neither function of law enforcement is enhanced by rudeness on the officer's part. #Based on what I read here, the officer was out of line, and KB3EAA was perfectly within his rights in attempting to report the officer's actions to his chief. #The chief should have responded promptly, and his failure to do so speaks volumes about the lack of professionalism in this department. #The department here where I used to work has a force of about 65 sworn officers, and I can guarantee you that had this happened here, the chief would have called back as soon as possible, and handled the situation in a positive manner. #THAT'S professionalism.

kd7bfx

05-14-2002, 06:24 AM

Sounds to me like just another case of a bored, officious cop being a pain in the ass. On the other hand, the notion that you were reported as 'suspicious', especially in a smaller community, has credibility. Sad to think so, and a bit frightening also, that fear has so badly clouded peoples judgement and common sense that two white, middle class, middle aged people at a shopping mall could raise alarm simply by using HTs, which are so common, both the ham and FRS variety. Yes, fear makes us do stupid and harmful things, and the most harmful outcome in this case I believe would be for us all to give up our liberty for a sense of security (notice the use of the adjective 'sense' here [please]

kb7ntl

05-14-2002, 01:02 PM

I don't know if it's been said, but I'd rather be yelled at by a policeman thinking I'm a criminal, than be shot by a criminal thinking I'm a policeman. Shame anyway you look at it, but my radios go with me everywhere.
You did the right thing explaining.
73 Kevin K6NTL

wd0gsy

05-14-2002, 01:40 PM

Was out recently on a night time dfing of some local interference. Local police, after someone called, about a vehicle with beams and antennas, was sitting in the parking lot, came to investigate. After a quick conversation, and demonstration, showing the exact bearing back to their department, impressed, they left. Ham radio and all its activities are still mysteries to many.

05-14-2002, 01:57 PM

Give me a break. You have taken a simple encounter with a police officer and turned it into government conspiracy against Ham radio. Your description of the events is transparrently exaggerated. I suspect that your encounter was much more benign than you make it out to be. Any over reaction seems to be on your part. A simple letter to the police chief would have sufficed if you really felt the need to make a complaint. I can see the bumper sticker now..."They can have my radio when they pry it from my cold dead fingers" People, when you read these kinds of postings, you need to examine them with a critical eye and use a little common sense.

n9aja

05-14-2002, 02:01 PM

I've always respected police officers...just like anybody would...but since I joined the Emergency Management Agency (civil defense), I really have a much higher respect.

I agree that a public servant shouldn't be surly...that's going to set off a lot of people. But if a citizen responds with a surly attitude, the police officer has a lot more to lose in the situation. That police officer is paid to be out there protecting you and me in addition to the guy with the surly responses. He going to think of you, me and himself first and that will outnumber the one guy with the surly response.

In one of the previous posts a fellow mentioned you should answer the question the officer asks, and not give the answer you'd rather give.

It's sad, but these days we really have to be defensive. We have to be defensive when we lock our car doors in our driveway so some ne`er-do-well doesn't steal our prized 706MIIG. We have to watch our kids at every moment at the park so some weirdo doesn't abduct them. We've got to walk in pairs or groups in some parts of the city. You think you and I have to be a little paranoid and defensive? I think the police officer protecting you and I or the one called out when you or I end up in deep doodoo should be a little extra protective and defensive.

Nobody likes to be given the third degree or questioned about our activity...this is America, afterall. But freedom has a price, and I don't mind pulling out my license to show a copy that the FCC is okay with me talking on this radio. I don't have a problem with an officer asking me what I'm doing in plain clothes at an emergency scene (if I've rushed there without an EMA insignia)...I'll gladly show him my ID card.

I don't think these guys need education...the need a non-adversarial situation where their authority is recognized. And I'm pretty glad that they're out there watching my A$$.

ad5io

05-14-2002, 02:04 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MattBeers @ May 13 2002,16:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ya know, I sympathize with you, but there were an awful lot of things you apparenly did without thinking.

First off, did you really yell "HAM" every time you said the word? #It's "ham radio" not "HAM radio". #It would be "HAM" if it were an acronym, but it is not an acronym, but rather a nickname. #So, I assume that by writing it the way you did, you meant you were yelling. #Bad choice.

Nextly, when the policeman asked what you were doing, you didn't answer directly. #He asked what you were doing, and instead, you told him what you were. #Policeman get very suspicious when suspects evade questions. #You should have answered more directly like, "We're trying to see how far the radios can talk to each other" or "We were using our ham radios to coordinate meeting back at the car", or whatever it was that you were doing with the ham radios. #By telling him you were a ham (e.g. licensed), you came across as defensive. #

Think of it this way. #If a game warden comes upon a man with a gun, and says, "What are you doing here?", the correct answer is "hunting". #However, someone who is fearful, or has reason not to be there might answer, "I have a hunting license." #Cardinal rule with police officers: answer the exact question he asks, don't answer a different one. #You cannot respectfully evade a question.

Then, you add insult to injury. #He asked his question in a different way than he did the first time - this is a clear sign that you didn't give him the information he wanted. #But you gave him the same evasive answer

So you go the police station with an attitude. #You wrote:
"...do a little educating..." #What an arrogant bastard you are. #I am not one to cow-tow to authority, but I have the commnon sense to know that you do NOT walk into a police station expecting to educate THEM. #No, the useful attitude would have been to walk in there, ready to ask enough questions to determine why there was any issue at all with what you were doing.

No, what I see is someone who thinks he's right and he's so sure of it he never ONCE asked the other guy why there was any issue.

I got pulled over once in my car, having done nothing wrong. #If this happened to you, I'm sure you'd try to educate a cop on illegal retention et al. #That's not my approach. #I asked him why he pulled me over and he mumbled something. #Rather than attacking him, I asked him if everything was all right. #He said there was trouble ahead, and he did not know what it was, and that he felt I might be safer taking a different route.

You would have learned an awful lot if you had probed to determine the real problem, instead of trying to force your opinion on them.

It absolutely galls me to see the number of arrogant hams like yourself who take it upon themselves to "educate".

Education cannot be done without the other person wanting it. #If you launch into a big explanation of ham radio, before the other person says he wants the explanation, then you've alienated him.

The approach I take, when it appears that an education is needed is like this, "I can understand why you are concerned. #The explanation is a little bit lengthy. #Would you like to hear it?" #All of a sudden, you've put them in control of the situation, which is where they should be, if they're law officers.

Striding into a police station to educate the chief will not buy you points anywhere.

Take a tip from KC0MDC, who says, "I've had the opportunity to educate a number of people about amateur radio by answering their curiosities..." #He waited until they asked, which meant they were receptive.

MB[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Matt have another beer and chill out

David
AD5IO

W7WV

05-14-2002, 02:59 PM

Sounds like N2INC had some bad experiences as an officer of the law. And I am sure that most do, I certainly would not want to be an officer of the law in a major community. But to make the statement that he had to take care of the whiners too is stupid.
I would like to know why the officer was asking questions in the first place. I guess we will never know?
I also wonder what his attitude would have been approaching me at 250 pounds, 6-1, having a beard and carrying a .45 on my hip in plain view. You see, here in AZ we have an open carry law.
I guess we don't need a law to carry radios here.May I had better stay away from the East Coast!

Phineas

05-14-2002, 03:03 PM

Everyone in the nieghborhood thinks I am a spy, or a government agent...why not you?...lol

Phineas
KC0LSC

n4aof

05-14-2002, 03:44 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MattBeers @ May 13 2002,16:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
It absolutely galls me to see the number of arrogant hams like yourself who take it upon themselves to "educate".[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Yes sir, Mister Officer, Sir. #We're all so sorry that some of us have made the mistake of trying to separate you from your beloved ignorance. #We all most sincerely apologize for the mistake.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

wa2poc

05-14-2002, 03:48 PM

I have not seen any posts that characterize this incident as a "conspiracy against hams." #That is not the point. #The point is that police must have the same expected standards of behavior as do any other civil servants. #Your boss may be a pain in the ass, but he is still your boss. #The police work for us. #That is, those of us who are taxpaying citizens. I expect them to treat us with the respect to which an employer is entitled. #I expect them to conform to the same standards of courtesy that they expect and demand from us. #Case in point - a few years ago I was waiting to turn from a fairly major thoroughfare onto another one in Burbank, CA. #As my light went green a police care blatantly ran his own (now red) light. #As he passed, I turned, and followed him, seeing him make a turn into a 7-11 parking lot. #Still (at that point) being ready to give the benefit of the doubt, I assumed that he was answering some kind of emergency call (which would have justified his running the light.) #But no. #He appeared a few seconds later with his coffee in hand, sat in his car, and proceded to drink his coffee. # I went home and called the watch commander. #He confirmed that he officer was on routine patrol and told me that he would "have a talk" with the officer. #I told him that this was not good enough, that I wanted him to be treated EXACTLY as I would have been had roles been reversed, and that I wanted a ticket issued for the moving violation. #The watch commander was stunned, but told me that I could come in and swear out the complaint.

The point is this. # Police do no have any more rights than we do. #In an ideal world we should all adhere to a high, mutually applicable standard of respect and judgment.

Conspiracy against hams? #That is ridiculous. #Dangerous erosion of our rights as citizens? #Without question. #Don't let it happen.

w3jjh

05-14-2002, 03:59 PM

The Amateur's Code says that we should be gentlemen. Even if the cop's behavior was off-base, you should have answered his questions in a clear and concise manner. If you had produced your FCC license, he likely would have realized that you were OK and left you alone.

Common sense tells us that we should not throw rocks at a man with a gun. This is another reason for being polite to policemen.

That being said, we also have a right to expect that civil servants treat us civily. While you should be polite to a policeman, you should also hold him to high standards of behavior. You should *require* that he present proper identification (Any one can rent a uniform at a theatrical supply house). "Officer, may I see your department ID card?" You should insist that he keep *his* hands where you can see them until he has produced proper ID. "Sir, I am rather nervous. Please keep your hands where I can see them?"

Police work is dangerous business. Be as nice and cooperative with the officer as possible, but be firm in holding him to the highest standards of his job.

05-14-2002, 04:09 PM

Seems like a lot of concern over an isolated incident.

That kind of thing is never pleasant, but unless you see that kind of behavior ocurring regularly, or in a predictable pattern, it's probably just an isolated incident that should be ignored.

Law enforcement is a respected profession. You should always expect, and if necessary demand professional behavior from any officer of the law.

On the other hand, this IS an isolated incident. For all you know, the officer might have lost a friend or relative in the terrorist attacks, or he might have forgotten to take his "tucks" with him that morning. There's no telling.

Hams very often work closely with law enforcement personel, and in my experience, we have always gotten along just fine. For every incident such as you have described, hundreds of much more pleasant and productive ones occur every day.

Charles, N5PVL

KG4PYX

05-14-2002, 04:49 PM

As a 17 year veteran in the Public Safety field, I, too, feel that all of the incidents listed in this thread are poor examples of how we expect our policemen to act. Forget using 9-11 as an excuse. That is all it is, an excuse for bad manners.

# # The first incident, fine, suspicious person, park the car, wait for the back-up, (we send more than one in case it is legit) and approach the people. If he was indeed sitting in his car when he accosted the couple, then he already determined they were not suspicious. And accost them he did by being disrespectful. Also, it seems the Police Chief did the same. How about a letter to the Mayor, City Council, and the local paper?

# # The second incident, well, what was his probable cause to arrest you and search you? Yes, I said arrest, as the officer prevented his being able to leave. He made you take everything off your belt and removed the batteries? If a cop does that to me, i hope he is already working out his notice, as an accusation will be filed in the Solicitor's Office soon afterward.

# # The third incident, sounds like it was handled well. both by the ham and the police supervisor. Glad to hear someone does it right.

# # Now, for my qualifications, I have been a volunteer firefighter since 1984 for the city fire department, and a Georgia EMT since 1986, Career firefighter for the county fire department since 1988, and a paramedic since 1989. I know most of the police officers in the county, and I do know some are real jerks. You find that everywhere and in every profession. I also carry a firearm, when off duty, and carry it almost everywhere I am allowed. When I see a crime I call it in, if you are walking behind my neighbor's house when they are gone, expect to be held at gunpoint until the police can determine you are legit.

# # As for the bad experiences yet to come, it is best to keep your cool, answer the questions, and if things are getting stupid, ask for him to call his supervisor. If he doesn't, wait unitl he is done, then after he is gone, call the police and request a supervisor to meet with you. Most departments that care will do that.

# #Well, that is my 2 cents worth. And for those that have had problems, my apologies on behalf of the Public Safety Departments in this country.

73.

Chris Wilkie, KG4PYX

KE4MCL

05-14-2002, 05:24 PM

too many donuts...

sounds like someone should have sent some letters to the mayor and maybe the local papers. if the cheife didnt have the time to get back to you then maybe some media attention would work.

i used to drive a very odd looking vehicle and would get pulled over all the time. the vehicle was an 84 4 door cavalier painted camo. it had aprox 13 antennas on it, no passenger seat, ge delta control heads across the dash and a radio shelf where the passenger seat used to be. everything was operational. 6m, 2m 440 ge deltas, cb, 1kw inverter, hf, dual batts with isolated electrical system for the radios and a few other toys.

cops would pull me over at least once every two weeks. i would call these "pcp's". Police Curiosity Pullovers. all except one cop were cool. most admitted to just wanting to see the car. one cop got rude and started making cracks about the car. two more units showed up while this was going on. the guy was in my window smoking a cigar of all things. he asked "what the hell is all this". i explained its amateur radio equipment and that we use the car for setting up communications in the field. he asked were my girlfriend sat. i pointed to the back seat. then he said "i bet you have video cameras in here huh" at this point i smiled and pointed to the video camera mounted to the rear deck and told him its conected to radio equipment that is transmitting images from the car. he abrubtly got his fat duff out of my window and said i could leave.

cops dont like cameras! getting harassed?? get a camera and wire it to some proper looking electronic box and route the wires out of site. it doesnt have to work. the fact that my camera "transmitted" images curtailed the cop from attempting to take away the video tape that would have been in the trunk had i been using a conventional in car video setup. i'm sure he was left with a very unsettling feeling that he's on tape somewhere and someones goona see his actions. funny thing is none of the video gear worked! HA! word must have got out about the "army car" because the pcp's ceased after that incident.

i have had other inquiries as to why i am carrying a radio. telling them "i have a federal license to use this radio" has stopped that in its tracks. if you look authoritive in your response it leaves them wondering who you are (fed, gov spook, etc) and the questioning ususally ceases. you didnt lie and you didnt portray anyone. you answered the question. let the cop sort it out.

finally...
i carry an ericsson edacs radio for use on the county edacs eoc talk group. i got asked about that one day by a cop. i pulled out my county ares/races id and he went away.

if you maintain your composure and answer the questions in a creative fashion you can leave the inquisitive individual with something to ponder. i dont do this to all of them. if they aproach in a genuienly inquisitive fashion then i am more than happy to fill their ears but if they come off like an alpha hotel then they get the creative answers.

73
robert cruz
ke4mcl
miami fl

KE6PKJ

05-14-2002, 05:28 PM

I was 16 years old sitting in my grandfathers borrowed car at #a drive in restaurant listening to my 2 meter HT and enjoying my burger. Parked behind me was a police car on coffee break. When I went to leave, 3 squad cars ran up and blocked my exit and a burly plainclothes detective ran up, asked to see my radio and then ripped it out of my hands before I could present it to him. He's yelling at me that I'm in BIG trouble for impersonating an officer. I calmly tried to explain to him what ham radio is but he didn't want to here the facts, his mind was already made up.
He told one of the uniformed officers to search my car and then left. With glee they tore my car apart and found nothing. Again, I calmly went on to explain to the officer, who was now trying to raise "dispatch" on my seized yaesu, what ham radio was. He #went on to say (abrasively) that he new what ham radio was because he was a licenced ham himself. Seeing an opportunity to de-escalate this situation I asked him what his call sign was. This sent him over the edge and he was #two inches from my face shrieking at me like a deranged USMC drill instructor. His partner bolted from the car, dragged him off and continued the "investigation".
In the end my radio was seized for a month and then returned to me in pieces. All this happened in Canada and now I'm living in the states where, in my opinion the police are far more civilized and knowledgeable outside of their own paramilitary mentality as in Canada.
God Bless Hamerica!
Kirk KE6PKJ

#http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

K5MAR

05-14-2002, 05:29 PM

An additional point - several postings have said that we, as hams, should be willing to show our FCC license as proof. #What about users of FRS radios? #These things are widely available at places like Radio Shack, Wal-Mart, Target, etc. #Do the users of these surrender some rights because they are not licensed by the FCC? #The radios are perfectly legal to own and use. #The idea that we, as hams, have some kind of superior "right" to operate under normal circumstances is simply not true. #Ham, FRS, MURS, GMRS, or Part 15 CBs, if the radios are being used legally in a non-emergency situation, we all have the same right to operate in public. #This right may be constrained on private property. #I'm not a lawyer, but I understand some theme parks, such as Disney World, do not allow two-way radios.

Of course, if there is an emergency situation, the rules all change. #I'm lucky, as the A.E.C. for ARES in a county here in Oklahoma, people (including law enforcement) are used to seeing people with strange radios and antennas running around. #I've been approached by officers on multiple occassions while using my car or handheld radios, but the question generally is "What's the word on the weather? #Anything headed this way?"

Mark
AEC - Payne Cty, OK ARES

K9DRX

05-14-2002, 06:33 PM

People still think I have a "CB" in my truck. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Unfortunately, the general public is too undereducated about Ham radio. I was fortunate to attend a high school in the 80's that had an Amatuer radio pioneer as a teacher. He had actual credit courses and a Ham radio club that many students anttended. He has since passed away and I am sure Ham radio at the school has as well. If every school had such a person on staff, younger generations would be more educated on the subject. Too many folks regard Ham radios as toys which drives me bonkers every time I hear it.

Mike - K9DRX

RPC

05-14-2002, 06:34 PM

Matt Beers is an arrogant ass just like the cop was. If they were truly suspected of illegal activity, the officer should have checked them out more closely. Obviously the idiot did not do his job if he did suspect them of doing illegal activity. I think it was just a case of penis envy!!!

05-14-2002, 06:35 PM

If Cops were so smart...they wouldn't be cops http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

KD5KUF

05-14-2002, 06:40 PM

As a ham with police officer friends, I will give my slant on the original post.
The incident occurred on a busy shopping district street, so busy the man couldn't see his wife a short distance away. The officer obviously didn't think it was really anything worth getting out of the car for so yelled over the noise. Patrol officers are at their most vulnerable getting into or out of their car. He may have just came from a multiple murder or fatality accident scene and not have the patience to say "would you come over here pretty please".
Furthermore if my teenager acted in an infantile manner and kept spouting the same answer to my questions he would be picking himself up off the floor (and because he knows it, I don't have to, and he is big enough that if he didn't think he deserved it, I might be the one getting up)(and he treats officers with the respect they deserve). So I think the officer showed admirable restraint. The old fashioned way of saying "Sir is something wrong" would have gotten him a calm explanation and then he could have said I use my amateur radio to keep track of my wife in the stores. The officer could probably sympathize with that and would have likely said "Good Luck! Have a nice day".
I am all for the light hearted adventure with his wife, and so would the officer be, if he knew what we know rather than " I'm a licensed HAM radio operator."
Remember our officers are dealing with things we would never want to, every single day. Thank them for it every time you get checked out. The life they save with their suspicions and questions may be your parent's, spouse's or child's. I personally thank the officer for checking on you rather than blowing it off and deciding the call wasn't worth his time.
So write a leter to the editor of the town's paper and praise the officer for checking out some suspicious charachters, and explain what you were doing with the radios and the public will be a little more informed and the unexpected praise will maybe brighten an officer's day. So as Dr. Laura says, "Go do the right thing!"

kg4mrv

05-14-2002, 08:17 PM

JimRHam

05-14-2002, 09:13 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (wb9hnj @ May 13 2002,17:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Folks we may as well face it...on 9-11 the terrorists won the war...we as a country have never been more afraid of our own shadow and of our neighbors. We wave flags in the daylight and #### our guns at night. If you are doing something such as talking on a HT in public where someone doesnt understand what it is with Mr. Bush's national security force you're likely going to get questioned about it. Everything has changed...we now have terror instilled in our hearts....a war won.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
It's sad that you feel "the terrorist won the war." #This is a looser attitude. #I'm no more afraid now than before 9-11. #I may be a little more carefull but not afraid. #As for the guns, I always have mine ready, that's just the way I've always been. #I hope that you are not in our military. #With beliefs like yours in our fine military we would loose the war. #We have only begun to kick some ass. #The acts of 9-11 have brought this country together and made us stronger, albeit at a very high cost. #So take your looser attitude and go hide in your basement and cry about how "the terrorists won the war."

w0fm

05-14-2002, 10:12 PM

Unfortunately, amateur radio is not the core of the issue here. #The pay scale for law enforcement officers often dictates that a department is not always able to hire individuals with the best people skills or the best communications skills. #I think the officer involved here demonstrated poor communications skills and questionable patrol skills as well.

I spent 8 years in law enforcement and saw everything under the sun. #I was college-educated and earning $525 per month at the time. #I took the job because I was intrigued by the opportunity to help others in need. #I had good days and I had bad days for the same reasons everyone else does. #And I'm sure, no matter how I tried to avoid it, the bad days showed up in my contact with the public at times. #I worked with good cops and with cops I hoped I would never see again. #Fortunately, the talented ones far outnumber the others.

Some cops (maybe the cop who stopped Mr. Beers) may not even have good communications skills on a GOOD day.
In my opinion, that officer responded to the call poorly and to the citizens poorly. #They can't all be top of their class.

I'm not so sure that Mr. Beers handled himself perfectly either. #And, I certainly can't say anything in defense of the Police Chief who did not return Mr. Beers messages on two occasions. #I believe that the Chief's inactions may be symptomatic of the attitude of his entire department.

It's not about ham radio, mysterious little black boxes, looking wierd or driving a strange looking car. #The bottom line is police work is difficult, demanding and not always popular, but everyone (the cop and the citizen) needs to give a little in situations like Beers experienced and like others have described in this thread.

I'm in a different profession now, but, as a result of my brief career in law enforcement, I carry with me the utmost respect for those who continue to "protect and serve".

Finally, with regards to the unnecessary comment by KD7RHE, I hope that someday you understand how foolish you sounded.

73, Terry, WØFM

VE1IDX

05-14-2002, 10:46 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KE6PKJ @ May 14 2002,10:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">All this happened in Canada and now I'm living in the states where, in my opinion the police are far more civilized and knowledgeable outside of their own paramilitary mentality as in Canada.
God Bless Hamerica!
Kirk KE6PKJ[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
KE6PKJ Sorry to hear that you had a bad experiance here in Canada but what do you base your decision on?One incident?I'm sure that there have been more than one incident of that occuring in the USA.I am not saying that police up here are any better than in the USA and are certainly no worse.That is crazy to make that sort of generalization based on one experiance.There are good cops and bad cops everywhere just as there are good and bad judges,waitresses,Fedex delivery men etc.Where did this take place?I do know that I have a great respect for the law in general and I must admit that I tend to respect the RCMP a little more than the local or municipal police.I guess that it just comes from better training as they tend to show more respect towards me.That is why RCMP officers have been involved in peacekeeping and training police all over the world.I know of an officer that has trained police in Namibia,Croatia,Haiti,South Africa,Russia,and Tanzania and man the stories I have heard about their police forces would make any incident so far mentioned in this thread look like a kindergarten fight.
As for the original posting, the cop had no right to assume that you were guilty from the start.He did not act in a professional manner.He may have been having a bad day, but it would have been interesting to see his reaction if he politely asked a speeder, that he just pulled over and was a victim of police brutality before,what his hurry was and the driver replied by screaming"Don't shoot me!I didn't mean it! For Gods sake don't hit me!" in front of witnesses.I'll bet he would be the one embarressed and a little hot under the collar.Embarrassment and false accusations can really change ones attitude in a hurry.

KAMR

05-14-2002, 11:10 PM

Judging by Matt Beers flame a few frames back I think he gets such great sport in making people look stupid that he would handle any situation with the great diplomacy he professes to all of us that he does.

Bob KA0MR http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

N8YV

05-14-2002, 11:34 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kb3eaa @ May 11 2002,19:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Not too long after, I stopped a gas station, where an aged East Indian attendant commented on the ATAS-100 antenna on my car roof. #He asked if I was with the government. #I told him I was not, but that as HAM operator, and that I would use my equipment in defense of my country and government if need be, for this is a primary purpose of the Amateur Radio Service in this country. #He told me that in his country, only the government would be allowed such things. #

I reflected on the great privileges we as Americans enjoy, and felt a little self-conscious there with this humble man, who was willing to view me as an authority, simply because of my nice new car and roof rig. #[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Well, this thread is LOADED with responses about the apparent police officer incident, but there's something very odd about this little tale of adventure. #It reads like a cheap pulp novel at the beginning, then digresses into other fanciful dalliances.

That aside, am I the first to comment about the supposed "East Indian" encounter? #How, pray tell, would you have acquired this information? What were you looking for (assuming this story is even based on a real event to begin with)? #

Why would you feel it necessary to point out to ANY man, that you would use your equipment "in defense of my country and government if need be"? #Did you somehow feel that this "aged East Indian" attendant was somehow a man that needed such a suggestive and, frankly, quite arrogant put-down? #Did you perceive him as a threat to your patriotism? What made you think the attendant wasn't just as much a citizen of this country as YOU? #

Maybe I am missing something here, perhaps you were in a foreign country when this took place? #Maybe I missed the chapter in your pulpy story about where this gas station encounter took place!

Perhaps this "humble man" did not view you as an authority, but rather YOU viewed yourself as HIS authority, after establishing this convoluted premise with references to "my country" and "defense", after inflating your ego a few pounds with the BS pump you must keep handy under the seat of your "nice new car", for such occasions?

Arrogant? #Yes, for posting this ridiculous story. #What is revealed is your racism, your arrogance and your artsy turn of a literary leaf! #What a combination! #Great entertainment, but I've already seen this one....try again!

K7ZAR

05-15-2002, 12:25 AM

So funny. They did not know you can do that in America. What a Joke, ya know we have NO requirements for any one to come to america. I wirked in Miami in international stuff. People come all the time. Our Government dont require for people to have shots or anything when they come here. Its sad. Its reality. We have no protection because MONEY talks. We the PEOPLE get the screw job. I know I was state dept. It is sad. Of course people dont know that we hams have radios. And you dont know what disease people have when they get off the plane from over seas because it is not a requirment for people to be disease free when they come. Again Money talks. But just try to bring a dog or bird from over seas. It will be in Quarintein. I am suprised at Nothing any more.

n7wsb

05-15-2002, 02:23 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MattBeers @ May 14 2002,15:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(mongo post deleted)

Direct answers, guys - anything else will be interpreted as evasive. #That's how policemen (and attorneys, if it comes to that) are trained. #And there are valid reasons for it. #An introductory class on interpersonal communications explains all of this.

MB[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Ah Touche :).

05-15-2002, 05:27 AM

I personally don't think the main and formost purpose of amateur radio is to "protect your country and government" etc... That is certainly one of the side benefits insofar as that it can be used for disaster communications...

However, I'm not going off to war any time soon with a VX-5R in my hands so I can die making QSOs.

I think that the foremost purpose of amateur radio is actually to advance the general understanding of electronics, radio, and technical skills while keeping the commonwealth airwaves truly public-- not this "die for your country" propaganda.

kb9num

05-15-2002, 09:02 AM

What an interesting round of name calling this thread has caused. #Now all we need is some speculation that the initial problem was caused by lowering the code restrictions and we can be off to the races. #I don't know what it is about the internet, but people who would be civil in person, or over the radio, go into attack mode behind a keyboard.

05-15-2002, 12:48 PM

It is a fact of life the world over, whenever the unintiated see something unfamiliar such as a Radio Amateur at play,one is, almost inevitably, showered with a thousand questions, then duly educated, the questioner tells his friend, "Yeah, he's CBer". The same applies to public servants, unfamiliar with the concept of hobby radio, the ever vigilant cop views the nine foot whip and the QMS-37 as very much out of place in his locality, and adopts an aggressive "I'm in charge attitude" and proceeds with a roadside interrogation, questioning the legality of the setup and so forth. The problem arises in the police training college, obviously not having been educated about Amateur Radio, and doubtless, other forms of public communication and the roles they play in times of national emergency. So pehaps it's time that the various organisations made representations to police training boards and have "Public Communications" made part of the training, and perhaps introduce it retrospectively and send those officers lacking in knowledge back to school and possibly explain what curtesy and polite manners befitting a public servent mean in reality. 73 de Gi0ZGB

tkinney

05-15-2002, 01:12 PM

Dear KB3LAA, I understand your point, but your dramatic story is very apparently made up...it reads like high school fiction and you are trying to write beyond your ability.

wa4fki

05-15-2002, 01:22 PM

I think that amateur radio should receive more publicity to keep the uneducated public aware of who we are and what we do and what we can do in case of an emergency. Almost every town and county in this wonderful United States have emergency personnel and RACES groups who assist the county in case of a disaster.

Since 9-11 more talk and planning is taking place to better utilize amateur radio in case something happens. Yearly drills are scheduled by the state emergency personnel to prepare the amateur in case they are needed. National traffic nets are active every night throughout the country both on hf and vhf. Field day is another drill to set up and operate under emergency conditions but little news exposure it given. More public education is needed I think. Begin in schools and scouting activities by providing demonstrations what members of the amateur radio fraternity does and how to become licensed.

Many members of the amateur radio family work as intruder watch operators. They monitor and report intruding radio stations that operate in our amateur bands. Earlier in one of these columns some radio amateur operators expressed the thought that stations acting as licensed amateur operators could send and receive messages on our amateur frequencies.

I agree that the unfortunate incident that occurred was a result of both parties. Exchanges between the radio amateurs and the police was not appropriate, confront the pair and not yell across a parking lot, to me this shows poor training on the part of the police. The policeman should have known about amateur radio operators, I am very sure he knew about CB operators.

In closing I want to make several comments which should be considered by the amateur fraternity as well as governmental agencies. The use of unlicensed operators in the amateur 40-meter band, many so-called CB's have purchased amateur radio transceivers and operate in the 40-meter band in stead of using the existing CB frequencies. These "intruders" are truck drivers, not all truck drivers but some have decided to use the 40-meter band in stead of the BC frequencies. Secondly I think in time period everyone should be vigilant of unlicensed activities and report such operations to the proper authorities many things we have and use everyday could be classified as an instrument used in a terrorist threat unlicensed radio operation is one. Should the short-range radios available be licensed and should citizen band operators be required to be licensed?

Thanks for reading. 73's WA4FKI #

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

w4paj

05-15-2002, 01:29 PM

Unfortunately, some law enforcement officials view people with
antenna(s) on the back of their vehicles or people carrying HT's as 'wanna-be-cops'. Again, this is lack of education on the part
of law enforcement. Little do they know that many ham operators are there to HELP law enforcement.

So who is responsible for educating law enforcement and the
public? All of us. Every operator, every member of RACES or ARES, and every club, ecomm organization and every national
organization (ARRL, etc...). Even the FCC and FEMA have a
responsibility and duty to inform law enforcement of the benifits
of amateur radio.

Go to the media. Show them how amateur radio has helped in
emergencies. Get them to air a story about it. In other words, be proactive. Spread the word. Nobody is going to do it for us.

You did excatly the right thing KB3EAA. Good work. It is a
shame it fell on deaf ears.

Best of luck in the future.

Brian (W4PAJ)

W2DUG

05-15-2002, 02:37 PM

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif2--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kb9num @ May 15 2002,04http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif2)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What an interesting round of name calling this thread has caused. #Now all we need is some speculation that the initial problem was caused by lowering the code restrictions and we can be off to the races. #I don't know what it is about the internet, but people who would be civil in person, or over the radio, go into attack mode behind a keyboard.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
An entertaining thread, indeed. #With all the responses ranging from finger-wagging to war with terrorists, I like yours the best. #There may be hope for "hamanity" after all...all these replies and still not a single argument based on the lower code requirements!

"The terrorists have won the war" ?? #What is that all about?!

- Doug, KC2GVA

KC8SBX

05-15-2002, 03:33 PM

Different Strokes for Different Folks. All police departments as wel as individual officers have different perspectives. What one agency may view as acceptable, another will not. When I'm out and about, you can sure bet my Icom T2H is right by my side, and that does get me some strange looks. Worse yet, I'm a cab driver, and my passengers ask me if I'm an undercover officer. I simply reply that I'm an Amateur Radio Operator and thats usually sufficient. I have been stopped and my radio has been seen. Like a earlier post said, Scanners are permitted in Michigan in vehicles, but only in the posession of a licensed ham. The police officer told me that portable scanners in a moving vehicle are illegal. I proceded to show her my license, and i was sent on my way with no attitude or conflict. But,who knows? If it would have been a different officer, the outcome might have had a disaterous outcome.......

n2ixa

05-15-2002, 03:49 PM

Give me a break, after what happened 9/11 you should be happy that the cops checked on what you were doing!!! My wife was in the WTC on 9/11 and if some cop had just asked or stoped one of the hijackers and asked what they were up to maybe just maybe the WTC would still be standing.

GET OVER IT!!!!!!!

Bob N2IXA

N7GFK

05-15-2002, 04:47 PM

Wow, what a lot of responces here!
I am wondering, in this day and age when many school kids have cell phones, why someone with an HT would be suspicious? Talking into an electronic device held in your hand is very common even here in Oregon.
Haveing said that, I have to relate an incident at Detroit MI Airport 5 or so years ago. I went thru metal detector and the inspector pulled out my HT and asked what it was. I told her it was a 2M radio and Fed. Gov. does not allow me to let her mess with it. I would gladly show my license. She said to go on. lol. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

KF7CG

05-15-2002, 05:19 PM

I see somewhat of a culture (life definition) clash here. #The answer that you are a licensed Amateur to someone who asks you why you have so many radios is perfectly legitimate. #If you are a Ham -- You have a lot of radios. #This is part of the lifestyle. #How many of us count the number of radios we have with us unless we are given a reason?

To someone who doesn't know Hams the answer may sound evasive! #The problem is that Amateur Radio has become rare enought that what is direct and normal to us is evasive to someone else. #Why am I sitting on a river bank with a portable rig and babbling away? #Because I want to! #Why do I want to because I an a Ham!

The problem is that if we aren't doing anything particular with our gear other than carrying it at the moment, the most direct answer that comes to our minds (I am a licensed Amateur Radio Operator.) is wrong.

Here is an "official" example of this.

Greetings
# #Fox hunting is getting more popular every day. If you know of anyone in
your area who could benefit from this forwarded message, please pass it
along. It was sent to me on the Section Managers Reflector. Ernie Howard,
W8EH, Middletown, #has already agreed to pass it along in the Southwest Ohio
area.
Joe Phillips, K8QOE
Ohio SM
------------------
--
"Mark J. Duff" wrote:

>

> >From: # # # # #Mark Duff/KB1EKN
> > President, Boston Amateur Radio Club
> > Chief of Operations, Hingham Fire Department
> >
> >To: # # # # # # #Phil Temples/K9HI
> > Section Manager
> >
> >Cc: # # # # # # #Mike Neilsen, Rob Macedo, Frank Murphy
> >
> >Subject:: # # Fox Hunting, Public Safety Notifications
> >
> >Date: # # # # #05-14-2002
> >
> >It has come to my attention from the State Fire Marshall that recently in
> >Eastern Massachusetts, a club was conducting a fox hunt and left the fox
> >near a public shopping mall. Although it was a totally innocent act,
> >someone not familiar with the box the fox was contained in notified

> authorities

> >and created a problem.
> >
> >I strongly suggest that any club conducting fox hunt's, notify public
> >safety officials that a fox hunt is taking place in their community and

> where

> >the fox is located. It would be very easy for any public safety official to
> >consider the fox to be a “Device” and treat it accordingly. A photograph
> >was included with the memo and there is no question in my mind that a

> person,

> >not knowing what the fox is, would consider it to be a radio-controlled
> >bomb. The events of 9/11 have considerably heightened public awareness of
> >anything that looks suspicious. Many times, the fox is hidden in strange
> >locations and this further complicates the problem. #A simple
> >notification made to the local public safety officials may eliminate a

> major public

> >safety response and prevent our noble hobby from receiving any bad
> >publicity.
> >
> >[Note: A memo was sent too every fire department in Massachusetts about
> >this.]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >____

>

--------------------------------------------------------------------
ARRL Ohio Section
Section Manager: Joseph J. Phillips, K8QOE
k8qoe@arrl.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------
This message is being sent to you via the ARRL Members Only Web site.
If you do not want to receive further messages, go to the site at:
http://www.arrl.org/members-only/memdata.html?modify=1
Log in with your username and password and change your email options.
Unchecking the "Division/Section notices" box will prevent messages
such as this one from being sent to you.
--

WITH THE CURRENT STATE OF EVENTS AND OUR CULTURE

!!!BEING DIFFERENT IS DANGEROUS!!!

05-15-2002, 05:49 PM

Ok just to add this................GROW UP PEOPLE! IF A COP GAVE ME AN ATTITUDE I REALLY DON'T CARE, SO ENOUGH WITH THIS WRITING DOWN THEIR BADGE NUMBERS ECT.

GROW UP!

KF7CG

05-15-2002, 06:13 PM

It isn't the attitudes that are the problem. They like, opinions and things too fierce to mention, are owned by everyone. It is untoward, unnecessary, undeserved, and unfriendly actions that are the problem and often the result of a bad attitude.

Being questioned -- no biggy.

Being questioned with a hostile tone -- a nuisance.

Being detained for an appreciable period of time (>15 minutes) for no apparent reason. -- a small problem

Being detained and having equipment seized (even if subsequently returned) and search before or after questioning, again without apparent reason -- a larger problem.

Any actions in excess of this are a large problem and should be delt with sanely, quietly, legally, and at the highest levels attainable. Violations of the law are not to be ignored when perpetrated by the enforcers of the law.

If someone can't understand your need (desire) to carry multiple HT's just because you feel like, and further can't understand the reason of I do it because I can, they should have a very good reason to go beyond the initial asking of why.

What of the people that carry a pager, a company cell-phone, a personal cell-phone, and a company radio are they to be arrested and interrogated?

If I wish to load my person with multiple transceivers and walk around, whose concern is it other than my family, myself, and my chiropractor?

W8OKN

05-15-2002, 07:06 PM

Excuse me... # he is innocent. #He was doing nothing wrong. #Police Officers who treat people poorly, assuming that everyone is guilty, and coming across in his tone trying to intimidate are WRONG. #PERIOD. #In this country, last time I checked, we are innocent until proven guilty. #It is the officer's job to know that and to act like that. #If the officer gets to a point in his or her career where they have to treat everyone with an intimidating tone, then that's when they need to retire. #That kind of police attitude turns the public against them.

kb3eaa

05-15-2002, 07:37 PM

I would like to thank everyone who has replied so far, whether critical or not.

Please let me clarify a few things.

1) I was really taken by suprise at the officers presence, and that he was using such a tone at my wife and I.

2) I thought that explaining that we were ham operators (and therefore not terrorists) was going to satisfy the officer, bearing in mind the recent events. Also, I spoke very respectfuly to him. You had to be there.

3) The officer continued to be rude. Realizing that this had turned into harrassment rather than a simple check, I felt as though I had to hold my ground. Even then, I was always respectful, but firm. Firm does not preclude respectful.

4) I felt that giving further information to the officer on his terms, would have been a de facto conferment of regulatory authority upon him. Giving in to such a thing before it officially exists, is a sure way of helping it to officially exist.

5) The subtle interactions and nuances of all involved are difficult to describe and offer for the groups consideration, and maybe my writing style did not convey them as well as I would have preferred. The dynamics of the thing are gone with that moment. Hindsight shows that I may have been able to handle it differently, had I been prepared. That is the reason for my initial post, to hopefully inspire others to pre-consider there response to a similar situation, as well as to resolve to defend our freedoms. If you can resolve to handle it better than I, before you are also caught off guard, then the post has done some good.

n8emr

05-15-2002, 07:45 PM

Either the policeman was an ASS or some facts were left out.
In this day and age with cell phones, (nextel speficily) and FRS radio's everywhere
why was the policeman concered about someone talking into a radio.

kb3eaa

05-15-2002, 08:07 PM

The officer was called to check us out by someone who phoned in. Also, I agree that there are so many with frs, cell phones and the like, that it seems weird that we would be singled out by the police. But we were singled out by a caller, not the police, and the police had to respond, it's just that he should not have responded like that.

AE6FJ

05-15-2002, 08:14 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kc0mdc @ May 13 2002,14:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's an undeniable fact that people will almost always question that which they do not know. #To see a cellular antenna on a vehicle is becoming normal, to see a number of items hanging off of a vehicle is intriguing to most. #I've had the opportunity to educate a number of people about amateur radio by answering their curiosities about the antennaes on my vehicle or the HT sitting on my desk in my office, and I do see this as an opportunity http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif # In the past, anybody who was walking around carrying a radio was considered to be someone of importance or responsibility. #With technology allowing us to carry smaller radios, people will still be inclined to ask, 'What's that for, are you a cop?' #Truth is, while many of my friends didn't understand either, as the tornado sirens went off in our town a couple of weeks ago, they were calmed by the idea that I knew what was going on. #They realize now that my radio isn't about me being important, but it's about a hobby and public service. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Tim #kc0mdc[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I agree with you completely. We're in a major gray area as far as our hobby goes. People are slowly becoming more aware of various technological communications advances. Even just 10-15 years ago, someone carrying a cell phone was unusual. I remember more than once being asked "What's that?" as people spotted my Motorola 750 "brick" of a cell phone. Today of course, wireless phones are as common as tinted windows. More recently, I've fielded plenty of different questions as people spot my VX-5 on my belt. From the generic "What's that?" to some variation of "What kind of Cell Phone is that?". It's surprising to me how many people respond with blank expressions when I tell them "It's an Amateur Radio" or "Ham Radio". I get a lot of "Oh, is that kinda like CB?" which of course opens up the chance to try to explain Amateur Radio. I've found what works best is telling people that yes, it is similar to CB; however like the aircraft bands, or marine radio, or public safety (police/fire/etc.) radio, it is it's own service within the FCC. So many people still equate Ham radio to that guy down the street years ago, with the great big tower, and huge antennas that was interfering with the TV. The petite VX-5 just doesn't logically connect to the towers and all of the base rigs of 20-30 years ago. I get a lot of interest when I talk about how with a Cellular phone, you're looking at buying the phone for $100 give or take, and then $20-30 or more a month for service fees, and then I contrast that with the Amateur Radio, where you can get an inexpensive monoband hand-held radio for roughly $75, plus $10 for the testing fee for your license, which is good for 10 years, and can be renewed forever more at no charge. I show how I can contact a friend 15-20 miles away over one of the area repeaters, and talk about how many husbands and wives I know both have gotten their licenses, and use the radio to keep in contact with each other. I talk briefly about the RACES/ARES group I belong to, and how amateur radio is used as auxiliiary communications in disaster situations by fire and police and other public service agencies. 9/11 has given a golden example of Amateur Radio Emergency Communications in practice. A lot of times also mentioning the existance of features like the Autopatch generates interest as well.
Technology is progressing. 20 years ago,someone who owned a computer was looked at as the nerd who stayed inside all day and used the computer to try to break into the pentagon computer. 20 years ago, someone who was into ham radio was looked at as the nerd who stayed in all day and tried to talk to Japan and Mars. Today, a Personal Computer is as common as a TV set. However people still don't know much about Ham radio. It's our responsibility as operators, to show people what our hobby is all about.

m3icq

05-15-2002, 09:29 PM

It's sometimes better to just say that a handheld is an FRS radio or a CB, how can you prove you have an amateur licence when asked by a cop? they don't have a callbook with them to check your address.
It confuses people sometimes to say that a handheld is for ham radio use because they connect ham radio with long distance QSOs, heavy gear and large towers. It's hard to explain that there are two very different types of operation, HF SSB/CW and VHF FM.

05-15-2002, 09:53 PM

Another person's ignorance is not my problem. Ham radio has existed since 1902 at least, thats 100 years. We have been internationally organized since 1914. That's 88 years. Plenty enough time for the police to wise up. Where I come from the local police are good for two things, collecting money from drug dealers, and directing traffic to the ball game, that's it. If you dial 911, they ask you if there is a body, no body, they don't show up.

Stand on your 1st and 4th ammendement rights. If you don't stand up for yourself, no one else will. That said, I have never run into a cop that didn't know what Amateur Radio was. I believe they deserve the same respect that they give to you.

kb3eaa

05-15-2002, 10:02 PM

I agree to a certain extent, that it is easier sometimes to simply say its a frs, to avoid tiresome discussion. In this case though, it was a policeman who was asking, and it's not right (or legal) to lie to them. I believe that we are required to show our license to any authority who asks to see it. I'm not clear on the details, but I believe it's in the FCC rules (which I'll look up now..) Whether or not that applies to only federal authorities, I don't know, but I think it includes the police as well, and I have no problem with any of that. I know that I would act that way anyway. Besides, what if he were to check it further, find that the ht is about 100 times more sophisticated than a frs, and then we have big problems. Now, why did this person lie? Now there is actually a good reason to be suspicious. Everyone can have a bad day, but the police have an even greater responsibility than most to keep professional, because their actions tend to have a big effect on the lives of everyone they deal with officially. It's a great pressure to have to function in their environment, and yet respond well to every situation, I know, as my father was a policeman for 15 years while I was growing up, and all of our friends were police families. Unfortunatly, when they don't respond well, usually someone is being violated in a way that would be considered illegal in another context. This, of course, adds to their pressure, but those who can do the job are rightfully very proud of it. This is where training can be of great help to the officer. I, and I'm sure that others also, don't like being treated rudely, as though it's not worth it to be proffessional with me, as though there are no consequences worth considering. I would never approach an officer with the attitude that he approached me with. I expect the same.

wr0t

05-15-2002, 10:58 PM

These days, I won't even carry an HT in my car or truck anymore. I have been denied access to airport parking, been questioned by security people. I once had my HT with me on a trip to a shopping mall because I was going to meet another ham there and while I was talking on it, a policeman grabbed me by the arm and took the HT away, wanting to know what in the hell I was doing. I was taken to the police station and questioned and they were getting ready to call the feds . They would probably have done so if not for an officer that was also a ham. I don't even own an HT any longer, I sold them on Ebay. I use my cell phone now, it just is not worth the trouble you can get into to. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

KC5MEW

05-15-2002, 11:31 PM

I have read this discussion with some interest. As a police officer and a Ham, here are my thoughts.

I will have to agree with the post (sorry, I don't recall who wrote it) that mentioned that the answer you gave is not what the officer was looking for. He asked, "What are you doing?" Saying that you are a ham radio operator did not explain what you are doing. From the way it sounds, a citizen called in you and your wife as suspicious persons. You were doing something the citizen perceived as out of ordinary or wierd. Folks are taught to call in such things to the police, and well they should. Most of these calls turn into nothing once they are checked out. This officer is sent to check it out. The answer you gave, whether you intended it to be so or not, sounded evasive. We are trained, taught, programmed, whatever, as cops to detect this and act on it. It is what we do, day in and day out. Deal with folks that are trying to be evasive about what they are doing. It sends up a bright red flag in our heads. It has to, our lives depend on it every moment we are on the street.

So, just plainly saying what you were doing would have been fine. You were talking on your amateur radio with your wife, if the cop wanted to know if you were licensed to do so or not, which he couldn't care less, he would have asked.

Going down to the station to "educate" them was a bad plan. It makes you look like a troublemaker, complainer and whiner. As for the officers conduct, it is not pearly white either. I always get out of my car and talk to folks cordially and friendly. Not hanging out of my window and yelling out the window. That is not the way to make friends and influence people. It is also tactically speaking a dangerous practice. You could have been someone up to no good and the officer would have been in a bad position to handle that sitting in his car with his seatbelt on.

Bottom line: it was a bad interaction on both your and the officer's parts. No big deal. Next time, be prepared with what to say and don't get offended if your asked questions. It is our job to ask, inquiring minds want to know. When someone is in your driveway poking around you car at 0300 and I ask them, "Hey, what are you doing?", you will appreciate it.

Gary KC5MEW

KC5MEW

05-15-2002, 11:44 PM

johnj

Whoa, there buddy!!!
I wrote my previous message prior to reading yours. I am sorry that you have had such a bad experience with the police not responding as you would like. Some agencies have problems, some have too many calls and not enough officers to send. Some officers have a major chip on their shoulder and act holier-than-thou all the time. But do not say that all police are only good for directing traffic, etc.
That is like saying all Hams are geeks with an antenna farm on their car, four HT's hanging off their belt, and wear big plastic pocket protectors in their shirts. (My apologies to my Ham brothers that this describes, it is just an analogy, I still like you).
Yes, stand up for all your constitutional rights and all the amendments. But, please, treat officers with respect all the time. Like our mothers said, "Two wrongs don't make a right." It is a tough job. It takes years off an officers life just doing the job. If the bad guys don't kill you, the stress, long hours, and heart attacks will.

Like someone quite familiar with the police once said...

...can't we all just get along??....

Gary KC5MEW

please take this in the good-humored spirit it was intended.

KC2GWN

05-16-2002, 12:05 AM

Got one thing to say too all those complaining...GET A LIFE....ITs the ones who argue that get themselves in trouble...stop giving the amature service a bad name.2 wrongs dont make a right.......bla bla bla......etc etc etc......................

kb3eaa

05-16-2002, 12:25 AM

It was Jefferson who said "Those who are willing to sacrifice freedom for security, deserve neither freedom nor security".

I appreciate the policeman's post, and respect his office.
Please understand, that there are not enough police to provide the level of security required to prevent terrorism in this country, and if there were, then even the police I know would probably not want to live here anymore. There is no way to implement consistantly effective routine security against an unknown tactical offensive. Total intelligence must equate with zero privacy, just like in the military, where that sort of thing belongs. The police need the rest of us, especially hams, to supplement communications needs, and I am an active member of RACES, SkyWARN, and lately, MARS. Last week, I set up my radios in a police station, as part of a simulation of a Nuke plant emergency. The police liked the radios, and I had a chance to show them many things concerning ham capabilities. They all loved it. That is the sort of educating I was talking about, and they do really need to be shown.

05-16-2002, 05:12 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kb3eaa @ May 11 2002,19:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><snip>
Not too long after, I stopped a gas station, where an aged East Indian attendant commented on the ATAS-100 antenna on my car roof. #He asked if I was with the government. #I told him I was not, but that as HAM operator, and that I would use my equipment in defense of my country and government if need be, for this is a primary purpose of the Amateur Radio Service in this country. #He told me that in his country, only the government would be allowed such things. #
<snip>
Now, I'm not up on the state of Amateur rules in India or Pakistan or wherever he was from
<snip>[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
As far as India is concerned, it has had amateur radio for a long time now. Sorry, I don't know exactly how long it has been in existence but I have noticed its existence in 1981.
The following list points to few of the amateur radio clubs in India http://www.vigyanprasar.com/ham/HAMCLUBS.htm

The point is, some of us are ignorant about the rest of the world. It was quite apparent after 9/11. KB3EAA's post is an example. India or Pakistan or wherever he was from... when he refers to an East Indian shows that even some hams do not care to get to know a little bit about the big world that lies outside the borders of U.S. That's sad.

kb3eaa

05-16-2002, 10:03 AM

I was stopping to get gas, not take participate in a politicaly correct mens sensitivity drumming session.
Now to judge me on my world knowledge, based on how much time I spend getting to know gas station attendents while getting gas does not speak well for your own efforts to get to know me, and you certainly have more time than I did to get to know him. You have the time and opportunity to ask. You throw those out with careless statements about my knowledge of the big big world we live in.

b1pig

05-16-2002, 01:19 PM

Ok. If this gets read, pass it on. I can't bring myself to read every reply to this post. Too many. I am a cop. I am also a Ham... KG4KPI. Cops are human, too. Humans have flaws and are known to make mistakes. For some reason, people seem to think cops are infinitely wise and know all. We don't. I've learned by experience, same as any of you. I am relatively young at 28 yrs old, yet seem to have more knowlege in daily and mechanical affairs than our college grads. (no insult to any of you) Take the time to explain it , as the original post was stated. If it doesn't have an affect, then by all means, go to thier supervisor and ask to have a little 3-way chat. There's no harm in it. The cop in this instance was wrong. For his approach and for his continued manner of attitude.

I do not condone such behavior on my own, nor do I let my fellow officers get away with being rude without just cause... and I am no supervisor. The most understood critisism is that given by an equal. I stand by that. Most cops don't know squat about Ham radio. Just like most lawyers don't know squat about changing brake shoes on a car. Don't EVER expect a cop to know EVERYTHING. However... you should expect them to present a professional and moral presence. Even if it is false or pretend.

If there has been no response, make a call to speak with the patrol supervisor and then the Chief. Make them aware of what occured and work towards a solution. Not fixing the problem won't help matters down the road.

----------------
KG4KPI

N8PCA

05-17-2002, 01:29 AM

This entire thread proves out completely what I have been trying to tell other people for a long time. When I tell them that you have been living in a "police state" for many years now.. they think I'm crazy. Wake up and smell the stench. I was pulled over here in Michigan a few years ago. The only reason that I was pulled over is that the "officer" saw me tuning a hand held scanner. He took my scanner from me and after about five minutes, returned and gave the scanner back. This is probably due to the fact that I carry a photo copy of the Michigan statuate that states that a person with a tech. class or higher can legally carry a scanner in this state. Give some people a little authority, and look out. They seem to think they are God in- carnate. I hope that soon our nations name will not be spelled Amerika. Just my opinion.

05-17-2002, 03:40 AM

I AGREE,THERE ARE SOME BAD POLICEMEN IN THE U.S.BUT,TRY LIVING OVERSEAS,WHERE THEY WOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN YOUR SCANNER,THEY WOULD HAVE JUST SHOT YOU ON SITE !!!WE JUST DO NOT REALIZE HOW GOOD WE HAVE IT!!!! GO TO NORTH KOREA WHERE THERE IS NO HAM RADIO,ANYONE WORKED THAT COUNTRY LATELY http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif?IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THIS COUNTRY, YOU ARE FREE TO LEAVE ANYTIME !!!!IN THIS COUNTRY,LIKE OTHERS,NOT EVERYTHING CAN BE GOOD,BUT THE GOOD OUTWEIGHTS THE BAD ANYTIME,AT LEAST I THINK IN THE U.S.A. IT DOES.NOT SURE?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif GO TO N. KOREA,AFGHANISTAN,ETC.TAKE YOUR SCANNER AND "LISTEN "THERE ,JUST MY .000000002 CENTS WORTH

05-17-2002, 03:18 PM

I see that this story have no sense. Nobody can stopped me to use HAM radio but,,,,,,if i want stole airplane,bank or other illegal think to do common sense say that i NOT be use Ham or other radio equipment, for illegal activity the cell phone is better, no training, have signal anywere, simple to use, no special licence and no body controll and look to me when i use cell phone. Think about.

P.S. about country like China, Pakistan etc. situation in my country look like concentracion camp.(for example try walk with Ham radio in your hand, the police in Croatia would took from you imidieatly)(This is from eyewitnes)

9A3HP zoky

kd5sdi

05-17-2002, 04:10 PM

I just have to say that this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. The only thing more ridiculous is some of the pro-cop posts. First and foremost, I am licensed to operate on amateur frequencies by the FCC, this supercedes the authority of any local official. Secondly, I realize that cops are under tremendous stress;however, this does not give them the right to toss innocent until proven guilty out of the window. So what if criminals use radios? they also use cars, boats, trains, roads, refrigerators (To store the chemicals for manufacturing speed) and many other ordinary daily implements. It is the intent that makes a crime, and unless the officer knows my intent he should keep his fat nose out of my business. Mere posession of an instrument does not make me a "suspect" by that logic , every male is a rape suspect. Also bear in mind that these people are the kind of folks that you call and say, "My home has been burglarized." and they get there and shine a flashlight on your auto tag to make sure it is still in date before they ask if you are ok, if the person is still in the house, if anyone is hurt, or anything else. They are also the kind of guys that tell a pregnant woman in the back of an ambulance ( I am an EMT) that they will let her and her baby die if she doesn't admit to owning the stolen gun in her car trunk. (It was her ex-boyfriends)The police in my town splatter their signals all across amateur
frequencies, National weather service broadcasts and numerous other services. I have complained numerous times to the FCC and to them and nothing has changed, so really I say hard cheese. I have nothing for the police.

K7ZZY

05-17-2002, 08:40 PM

I read many of the posts which suggested that the
police need some education with regard to amateur
radio. Definitely EDUCATION!

It sincerely FRIGHTENS me that one can become a full-fledged police officer with
as little training of 18 months (perhaps less).

I know of NO OTHER occupation in which so much
authority & responsibility is bestowed upon an
individual with so little training & experience.

I cringed when I've been stopped by a police officer in
his twenties, testosterone pumping in his veins,
ready to make his mark in the world. A-T-T-I-D-U-D-E !

On the other hand, when stopped by an officer
with a bit of gray on the temples, I find them most
reasonable & professional.

just my 2 pennies...

N8PCA

05-17-2002, 11:28 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (czar @ May 16 2002,20:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I AGREE,THERE ARE SOME BAD POLICEMEN IN THE U.S.BUT,TRY LIVING OVERSEAS,WHERE THEY WOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN YOUR SCANNER,THEY WOULD HAVE JUST SHOT YOU ON SITE !!!WE JUST DO NOT REALIZE HOW GOOD WE HAVE IT!!!! GO TO NORTH KOREA WHERE THERE IS NO HAM RADIO,ANYONE WORKED THAT COUNTRY LATELY http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif?IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THIS COUNTRY, YOU ARE FREE TO LEAVE ANYTIME !!!!IN THIS COUNTRY,LIKE OTHERS,NOT EVERYTHING CAN BE GOOD,BUT THE GOOD OUTWEIGHTS THE BAD ANYTIME,AT LEAST I THINK IN THE U.S.A. IT DOES.NOT SURE?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif GO TO N. KOREA,AFGHANISTAN,ETC.TAKE YOUR SCANNER AND "LISTEN "THERE ,JUST MY .000000002 CENTS WORTH[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Thanks. And you are absolutly correct. Myself and others that I know personaly and not.. just don't have much trust in our police anymore. It also seems that they dont care. By this I mean that: I have asked the (very occasional) police officer in my neighborhood to please try to do something about the idiots that drive 55 or more down my street that is posted at 25mph. Nothing ever gets done. I went to the road commission to try to get a "three way stop" in front of the house. No way. Yep, our "public safety officials" really give a damn about what goes on huh?? My tax money is being wasted.

KE6DII

05-18-2002, 08:08 AM

Some of the previous posts comment on the lack of awareness of amateur radio by some (hopefully a minority of) police officers. My problem has been police DISPATCHERS who don't know how to "run" a ham radio plate. I live in Pasadena, Calif. Twice in the past 18 months I have been stopped in Arcadia #(the adjoining city) and accused of having a "fraudulent" license plate. Another time the officer politely informed me that "the dispacher seems to be having some difficulty running your plate. What kind of plate is that?"

N8PCA

05-19-2002, 01:15 PM

One of the "officers" I spoke with regarding a tresspass problem about two years ago.. stated that "they" don't like the dispatchers. He said they were poorly trained..

Kd1ia

05-19-2002, 03:25 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kb3eaa @ May 11 2002,19:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It was late winter in Newtown, a small community in Southeastern PA, close to the Delaware River. #My wife and I were looking for each other, while doing some shopping on the main drag. #I heard "KB3EAA, this is KB3GYO", on my VX5R. #I turned as I replied, only to see her wave at me and smile. #She was just 50 feet away, her blue dress suit silhouetting her against the brightly flowered storefront. #I laughed and ran across the street to her, giving her a big hug and kiss. #

Just then I heard an angry shout from the road. #"WHAT ARE YOU DOING" the scowl faced policeman demanded. #I looked over at him, still in his car, as he stared at our offending radios. "We are Ham radio operators", I replied respectfully, although publicly embarrassed by his accusatory tone. #"WHY are you using them here" he then demanded. #"We are HAM radio operators, and we are talking to each other", I replied. #He looked peeved, as his shouts echoed off of the surrounding brick facades- #"You're not from around here are you-- you have to expect to be questioned if you do that sort of thing around here. #People don't know what you are doing". #"We are HAM radio operators" I replied, "and THAT"S what we're doing"! #He drove off, while my shocked wife and I stood staring. #

I walked over to the Police station, hoping to find the Chief, and do a little educating. #I was told that someone had found my wife and I to be suspicious, and notified the police of our radio "activity", thus the questioning. I said that the officer had acted improperly, by shouting at us that way in public, and that if his attitude was indeed warranted, then he could have also gotten out of his car to confront us. #On the other hand, if we were not really suspicious, then why the embarrassing scene? #The Chief was gone for the day, so I made a copy of my Ham license and R.A.C.E.S. id card, with a note bearing my phone number and a request that he give me a call, which he never did, even though I followed up by leaving him another message a week later.

Not too long after, I stopped a gas station, where an aged East Indian attendant commented on the ATAS-100 antenna on my car roof. #He asked if I was with the government. #I told him I was not, but that as HAM operator, and that I would use my equipment in defense of my country and government if need be, for this is a primary purpose of the Amateur Radio Service in this country. #He told me that in his country, only the government would be allowed such things. #

Now, I'm not up on the state of Amateur rules in India or Pakistan or wherever he was from, but the point is that this was how he was taught to think over there. #Those who may communicate must be specially privileged, or part of the military. #I reflected on the great privileges we as Americans enjoy, and felt a little self-conscious there with this humble man, who was willing to view me as an authority, simply because of my nice new car and roof rig. #

I suppose I might have been able to educate the officer on the importance HAM radio in public service, had I actually expected to be questioned. #I would have been ready, instead of offended. #But the continued need to over-explain ones legal activity in order to forego further interrogation is not an indicator of progressive social development. #The Gulag was stuffed full of good Russians who were eager to further explain their innocence. #Problem was though, that they had ridden there on the wheels of their initial explanation. #I have to ask also, why the police were unaware of the irreplaceable role that Amateur radio had played during 911, in a town only 1-hour drive south of NYC? #At least the gas station attendant assumed we were legit.
Let's not let it happen here.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Well let me tell ya, You dont even need to have your HT on you to get that kind of trat
ment here. About 4 Xmas's ago my wife and I were shopping at the mall. Just looking about
not buying. Mostly looking in Jewelry stores etc. When we walked out of one I was aacc
accosted by the mall rent-a-cop. He said that someone matching my discription was w
walking around with an HT posing as security. His evedence was the radio. I didnt even
have one with me at the time, or at home for that matter I was off the air at the time
due to a fire at my old qth. Well to make a long story short, I said if you going to accuse
me of something get me a real cop and we will talk to your boss. They just shrugged and
we left.

Your story brings it back, I wondered if this could ever occur again with the CELL phone boom and
the advent of FAMILY use two way radio's.

I was just a little shocked.

73's to all de John kd1ia

VE1IDX

05-20-2002, 07:19 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KE6DII @ May 18 2002,01:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Some of the previous posts comment on the lack of awareness of amateur radio by some (hopefully a minority of) police officers. My problem has been police DISPATCHERS who don't know how to "run" a ham radio plate.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
It would seem that in a state or province that allows vanity plates that the police should not be suprised at any letter/number combination but they still are.I was involved in an accident one time a few years ago.It was obviously the other drivers fault,she ran a red light with witnesses,but the police officer started to question me about the plate number when it was not found on the system.He read it wrong twice to the dispatcher.I read it to him phoneticly and he said it did not match the proper pattern of letters and numbers even after I told him the were ham radio plates.Needless to say I was hot und