History Lessons in 21st Century

[w5klb]

It's seems our children aren't being taught the WHOLE truth about certain event's that have taken place over the years in White House, especially concerning one President's "fling" with a certain former White house intern in some history text books.

Read about it here. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,179789,00.html)

This isn't rewriting history, instead the writers of these history books,#have seem to resorted to omitting certain parts of it. "Sweeping" certain aspects of history "under the rug" does not change the fact that they happened nor can they make it "go away".

Not only is it important to know that a President was impeached, but WHY he was impeached. According to some these "textbooks", it wasn't important that a President and "Leader of the Free World" purjured himself to a Federal Judge and Grand Jury in Arkansas. It's not important that President Clinton lost his license to practice law in Arkansas and is one the reasons he and wife now reside in New York. To these "history textbooks writers, this kind of information is NOT importart enough to include in the Presidency of William Jefferson Clinton. This was all about sex and how Kenneth Starr, who was part of "vast right wing conspiracy", was out to "get him". Yeah, right.

So how will the "New History" chonicle this President? How do you think he will be remembered? What, to you, will be President's Bush's legacy?

[k0ews]

How many people off the top of their head know which other President was impeached? I figure most folks would probably know it was Andrew Johnson. How many folks know why he was impeached? I wonder if that total is the same? I'll admit I had to look it up. Clinton did do some good things while he was in office, and he did some bad things. Much like every other American President that came before him. You take the good with the bad, and if the good outweighs the bad, we think they were a good President. If the opposite is true, we think they were bad. Not only that, but how they conduct themselves after they leave the Presidency.
It's a matter of perception. Jimmy Carter and Richard Nixon were both unpopular at the end of their terms. Today, a lot of folks think Carter was and is a very good man, and respect him as a person. Richard Nixon was reviled by people until the day he died. However, one could easily argue that Nixon was much more effective a President than Carter. We think of Nixon, we think of Watergate, as he didn't do much in public after his resignation, and we last remember him for that. He did break the law, and abused his power, but he also managed to open relations with the China, sign an arms treaty with the USSR, balance the budget, and sign a treaty to end the Vietnam War. In 1972, he was overwhelmingly popular before Watergate ever happened and had it not happened, one could argue that he would have been one of the most popular Presidents we had.
One thinks of Carter, and a lot of folks will think of his humanitarian efforts since having served. They will also think of some of the nice things he did while in office. Why? Our public perception of him has eased, because as we have seen him in the public eye in the past 20 years, we get a better opinion of him as a person rather than President. Had he never gone into public again, and the last thing we had remembered had been the Iran hostage crisis and high unemployment, inflation, and interest rates, he may very well had been reviled as much as Nixon.

I think that history will judge Clinton by both the good and the bad things, much like Nixon, but much of how we remember Clinton has yet to be decided as it will greatly depend on how Mr. Clinton conducts himself and in that, the jury is still out.

[KF0RT]

Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 27 2005,12:16)]This isn't rewriting history, instead the writers of these history books, have seem to resorted to omitting certain parts of it. "Sweeping" certain aspects of history "under the rug" does not change the fact that they happened nor can they make it "go away".
You kiddin' me Gary? Put a sex scandal in a textbook and all the right-wingers would have coronaries on their way to the book-burning.

Checkmate.

73, Rob

[K9STH]

Andrew Johnson was impeached, but not convicted, primarily because he was attempting to put in place a reconstruction policy for the South that was originally formulated by Abraham Lincoln. The Republican "radicals" who controlled Congress believed that Lincoln's policies were way too lenient and tried to get Johnson put out of office.

It didn't help Andrew Johnson in the fact that he had entered politics as a Democrat from Tennessee before he was elected as Lincoln's Vice President in 1864.

Glen, K9STH

[N9XR]

Quote[/b] ]One thinks of Carter, and a lot of folks will think of his humanitarian efforts since having served. They will also think of some of the nice things he did while in office. Why? Our public perception of him has eased, because as we have seen him in the public eye in the past 20 years, we get a better opinion of him as a person rather than President.

EWS, I like your post. Excellent thought. I do see many many people continue to SCREAM about Carter losing those soldiers in an attempt to save American Hostages though. Many people have not forgot those eight soldiers who died with a mission to save Americans in need. The same people have no problem losing thousands of soldiers when no American lives are at stake. Apparently they still are hardened in their heart about the decision of Carter to attempt a rescue of Americans. Almost like it is Anti-American to support US citizens.

I don't understand their opinion.

N9XR

[w5klb]

Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Dec. 27 2005,13:08)]Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 27 2005,12:16)]This isn't rewriting history, instead the writers of these history books, have seem to resorted to omitting certain parts of it. "Sweeping" certain aspects of history "under the rug" does not change the fact that they happened nor can they make it "go away".
You kiddin' me Gary? #Put a sex scandal in a textbook and all the right-wingers would have coronaries on their way to the book-burning.

Checkmate.

73, Rob
Mr. Rob, KF0RT,

They don't have to get "graphic" about it. But it seems to me that they could of least wrote in these history books that the real reason why Clinton was impeached was that he lied to an Arkansas Ferderal Judge and Grand Jury. They have EXCLUDED this when discribing the Clintlon "legacy". They don't want to mention that part because they don't want their "hero" to be remembered in history that way. Oh well...

Still, you can't deny history. Clinton did it. "Slick Willey" should of found a dictionary and looked up the words "fidelity", "morality" and "honesty" and applied them to his marriage and in the White House. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[w5klb]

Quote[/b] (n9xr @ Dec. 27 2005,13:43)]Quote[/b] ]One thinks of Carter, and a lot of folks will think of his humanitarian efforts since having served. #They will also think of some of the nice things he did while in office. #Why? #Our public perception of him has eased, because as we have seen him in the public eye in the past 20 years, we get a better opinion of him as a person rather than President.

EWS, I like your post. #Excellent thought. #I do see many many people continue to SCREAM about Carter losing those soldiers in an attempt to save American Hostages though. #Many people have not forgot those eight soldiers who died with a mission to save Americans in need. #The same people have no problem losing thousands of soldiers when no American lives are at stake. #Apparently they still are hardened in their heart about the decision of Carter to attempt a rescue of Americans. #Almost like it is Anti-American to support US citizens.

I don't understand their opinion.

N9XR
They don't "scream" about this. What they scream about was the double digit inflation, the energy crises, and his inability to anything about it.

I don't deny President Carter wasn't a good person. Look at what all he's done for "Habitat For Humanity". He has personally put on a nail apron, picked up a hammer and went to work on some these projects. He is also a man of faith and very intellegent, but poorly suited for the Oval Office.

[KF0RT]

Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 27 2005,13:46)]Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Dec. 27 2005,13:08)]Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 27 2005,12:16)]This isn't rewriting history, instead the writers of these history books, have seem to resorted to omitting certain parts of it. "Sweeping" certain aspects of history "under the rug" does not change the fact that they happened nor can they make it "go away".
You kiddin' me Gary? Put a sex scandal in a textbook and all the right-wingers would have coronaries on their way to the book-burning.

Checkmate.

73, Rob
Mr. Rob, KF0RT,

They don't have to get "graphic" about it. But it seems to me that they could of least wrote in these history books that the real reason why Clinton was impeached was that he lied to an Arkansas Ferderal Judge and Grand Jury. They have EXCLUDED this when discribing the Clintlon "legacy". They don't want to mention that part because they don't want their "hero" to be remembered in history that way. Oh well...

Still, you can't deny history. Clinton did it. "Slick Willey" should of found a dictionary and looked up the words "fidelity", "morality" and "honesty" and applied them to his marriage and in the White House. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Yeah, I suspect you're right, Gary. I was just enjoying the irony. I suppose they could say that Pesident Clinton was impeached for lying in Federal Court about a sex scandal he was involved in and leave it to the reader to learn more if desired. Still a bit of a "sin of omission" there, but better than nothing.

I do believe textbooks should be factual and the Lewinski deal sure deserves some space. But the textbook writers and publishers are no less whorish than the rest of our corporatocricy, and it's not the schoolkids who pay for the books.

73, Rob

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (k0ews @ Dec. 27 2005,14:54)]I think that history will judge Clinton by both the good and the bad things, much like Nixon, but much of how we remember Clinton has yet to be decided as it will greatly depend on how Mr. Clinton conducts himself and in that, the jury is still out.
The lives of presidents out of office rarely impact their places in history. They really are has-beens in the truest sense of the term.

Time is the only sure solvent of history, and no comments or view propounded now about those still breathing has much merit. That said, I believe that both Carter and Clinton will be rated below average, possibly very much so, and Nixon, disgraced as he may have been by his acts and tarred by the stain of resignation, will place far higher in the rankings.

Harry Truman once was almost universally panned, if not actually despised. Ike was loved, but rated a little better than his golf handicap. JFK was lauded and practically canonized. Yet HST and Ike now rate high and JFK is steadily falling, not because of any personal attributes, but because of what they did in office.

Looking at any of the living, including Gerry Ford (who may end up higher than one might suppose given the way he managed a difficult and dangerous transition), is entertaining, perhaps, but not very productive.

Now, as to Hillary...

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[W2ILP]

I can explain why the kids don't learn history right.
If you want to be a science teacher and fail the certifying test they tell you to be an English teacher. #If you want to be an English teacher and fail the certifying test they tell you to be a Social Studies teacher and teach, civics, economics, geography and HISTORY. #
Most Social Studies teachers that I have met are not studiers although they might be social...but never socialists. #The boards of Ed in most states are run by Liberal Artists that aren't usually very liberal. #You can get to be a Social Studies teacher if you agree politically with the members of the State boards of regents who might be called to grade your written essays. #Teachers aren't supposed to be politically biased. #Most aren't...unless they are Social Studies teachers. #Most Social Studies teachers never read the newspapers or the history books..They just read one history text book that is approved at the educational book convention in Texas.

I don't think they need to teach kids about the Lewinsky affair (kids will learn that in the street, if not in the sex ed class run by the Phys Ed teachers) ) but I would like them to at least teach that Oliver North should be in prison till this day for disobeying a decision of the United States Congress..Instead Ollie was praised as a hero and is now a poster child for kids who might grow up to be Reaganlike or Bushlike presidents.

w2ilp (Instruct Laterday Presidents)...by teaching true history even when it hurts.

[KF0RT]

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Dec. 27 2005,17:48)]I can explain why the kids don't learn history right.
If you want to be a science teacher and fail the certifying test they tell you to be an English teacher. If you want to be an English teacher and fail the certifying test they tell you to be a Social Studies teacher and teach, civics, economics, geography and HISTORY.
Most Social Studies teachers that I have met are not studiers although they might be social...but never socialists. The boards of Ed in most states are run by Liberal Artists that aren't usually very liberal. You can get to be a Social Studies teacher if you agree politically with the members of the State boards of regents who might be called to grade your written essays. Teachers aren't supposed to be politically biased. Most aren't...unless they are Social Studies teachers. Most Social Studies teachers never read the newspapers or the history books..They just read one history text book that is approved at the educational book convention in Texas.
What qualifies YOU for such broad condemnation of history teachers?

Truthfully, that almost sounds like something my Dad would say, and he spent 40+ years teaching history - now retired. Oh, he hates the lazy. But it's not true of all history teachers. I had a few very good ones in the public schools growing up (and a couple who were real "clinkers").

A few months ago I told Dad I was planning on doing a little camping in the Big Horn mountains in Wyoming. His reaction was to give me a book on the Fetterman Massacre from his personal library. If I were going to Greece, there is no doubt in my mind that I would have been given a book on Greek history.

The School Board approves the books. The teachers are required to teach from the approved books.

73, Rob

[k0ews]

Quote[/b] ]Most Social Studies teachers that I have met are not studiers although they might be social...but never socialists. The boards of Ed in most states are run by Liberal Artists that aren't usually very liberal. You can get to be a Social Studies teacher if you agree politically with the members of the State boards of regents who might be called to grade your written essays. Teachers aren't supposed to be politically biased. Most aren't...unless they are Social Studies teachers. Most Social Studies teachers never read the newspapers or the history books..They just read one history text book that is approved at the educational book convention in Texas.

I cannot speak of the process of teacher certification in New York, but do know something about it in Iowa and South Dakota. To become certified in those states, one must complete classes in college in teacher training and in the chosen subject area. These requirements are set by the state, and nobody is required to submit any written work; just transcripts of one's college classes, along with one's application.
The absolute BEST social science teacher I ever worked with I left last year in my old district. He went to law school and got a law degree but never became a lawyer, but did work in the court system, clerking I believe. Later, to "give something back," he became a teacher. He would study current events and got the kids involved in Kids Voting, a national project where kids actually went to the polls right along with the parents, and kids did vote; they had winners in each election, published separately from the "official" results. He helped establish a Teen Court in our community, where kids who were cited for various misdemeanors were tried and judged by a jury of their peers (teenagers) in a courthouse and sentanced to community service. This all was under the supervision of the county judge and court system. It saved the system thousands of dollars and gave the kids a lesson in civics. He demanded and got their very best and still does, and to this day, via e-mail now, we have very engaging discussions on world events and history.
He taught a class called contemporary issues, which was for seniors only, and the kids would get into very heated debates and discussions about events on the national and world stage, and they did all of this under his moderation.
In short, he got a bunch of 17 and 18 year-olds, who we all think are apathetic to be INTERESTED IN THEIR GOVERNMENT AND THEIR WORLD.
He is neither political in his views, nor tries to persuade, but just informs. I do know his political leanings, and they are not anywhere what you would expect.
Like I said; I cannot and will not speak to education training in New York. Here's a problem I do see, however.
Many times, given the choice between a very gifted teacher like this man that I know, and a mediocre teacher who happens to be able to coach football or basketball, the coach wins the job almost all of the time. We just happened to be lucky in that our football coach was already on staff and held the other Social Science position in our school at the time my friend was hired.

[K9STH]

ILP:

Books that are approved at any convention still have to be approved by individual state boards of education and then by local school districts.

The State of Texas is the single largest purchaser of school books in the United States (the state purchases the books and then distributes them to the local school districts filling orders from those school districts).

Things like history books, geography books, social studies books, etc., are reveiwed by all sorts of committees and then corrections are indicated to the publishers if they want to sell their books to the public school system of Texas.

A couple of years ago the history book that was being "pushed" by the teachers' union was reviewed and there were literally hundreds of "facts" and dates that were absolutely wrong. Like we fought England in the American Civil War! Like World War II was fought in the 1960s. And so forth. The publisher didn't want to have to make all of the changes so that book was removed from being offered in Texas. How many other states adopted the book I really don't know. But since the teachers' union was pushing the book I believe that a lot of them were sold, just not in Texas.

When I was with TXU I worked a lot with various maps (doing antenna site coverage, etc.). So, my local school district (Plano Independent School District) asked me to be the "parent" member (even though all of my daughters had graduated high school) to review the Geography text books that were probably going to be available from the state. There were 5 books. Of those 5 books, 4 had numerous major errors. The 5th book had a few very minor errors but was generally pretty accurate. That is the book that I recommended. The same book was selected by every other member of the committee for basically the same reasons. However, the school district did recommend to the State of Texas that corrections needed to be made before the final printing of the textbooks.

I believe that the "convention" on text books travels around the country from year to year. However, since the largest single market for textbooks is the State of Texas there usually is a "book fair" every couple of years usually in Austin.

Glen, K9STH

[W2ILP]

I am not an expert on all Social Studies teachers. I am sure that there are many excellent ones who teach history from a viewpoint of truth and don't protect any anti-social politics, even when they belong to the party that professes it, when it has proved to be an historical mistake.

After Grumman downsized, I was granted a scholarship to become a teacher, because engineering jobs for EEs in my area were scarce.. I actually earned a Masters in Ed from Dowling College. Although I planned to be a Physics teacher, I had to take classes that included teachers and students of of all subjects..not just Science teachers. I got to see what the teachers who were teaching the teachers taught. I won't name any names here...but with the exception of two professors (one who taught psychology courses and one who taught a science course) I would fail all of those idiot liberal arts professors. They were teaching that Lincoln always wanted to free the slaves, for example. They could never get respected if they had to teach any educated African Americans. ENUF SED.

BTW...I never became a Physics teacher. I could not pass the interview at any school in Suffolk County and wasn't even offered many chances to be interviewed. I student taught (for free) at a Catholic Military Academy which is no longer existing. I didn't want to commute to New York City, where anyone who is breathing can get a teaching job. I did some electronics teaching in a technical school. I had to retire from any demanding work after I had a quadruple heart bypass operation.

Yep a football coach might get to read the front of the newspapers after he reads the sports pages...That might make him a much better teacher than most Social Studies teachers who are not Jocks and are near illiteracy.

w2ilp (Instructor's Loony Professors)...not all but about 80 %. How can we expect good teachers when the teachers who teach the teachers are not so hot?

[k0ews]

Quote[/b] ]w2ilp (Instructor's Loony Professors)...not all but about 80 %. How can we expect good teachers when the teachers who teach the teachers are not so hot?

I will agree with you on that, ILP. The educational colleges are interesting places. I've often said, jokingly of course, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, become education professors." While totally in jest, there is a shred of truth to some of it. Many education professors have little if any experience in a classroom. I tell people that I learned my subject in college. I learned to teach on the job. Nothing can prepare you for it, really. My Grandmother, who was an old school teacher from back in the day, told me once that teachers were born and not made. This I truly believe. You either have it, or you don't. I think a good teacher can teach anything. There are a lot of intangible elements in good teaching. What always amazes me is that when we look back at all of the technological things we as a country accomplished from the Industrial Revolution forward, and all the great minds this country produced, many of the public school teachers who taught these kids who would later achieve great things only had 2 years of teacher education, and they were called Normal Schools. Those Normal Schools turned out some fantastic teachers, however.

Glen, my former district went through the process of purchasing new History textbooks a year ago. I was also amazed at some of the garbage that were in some of them. It really was a long process, and I think that in all cases, style seemed to be more important than substance. One of my Math teacher friends also had similar complaints. Not really on the math being wrong, but in the layout, and the sequencing of book. I really feel that there is a real art to writing a good textbook.

[w5klb]

After reading some of my old college texbooks, you have to wonder if some of these authors don't get payed by the word.

[KF0RT]

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Dec. 27 2005,19:03)]Yep a football coach might get to read the front of the newspapers after he reads the sports pages...That might make him a much better teacher than most Social Studies teachers who are not Jocks and are near illiteracy.
It's pretty obvious you have a strong bias here, ILP. Maybe even a hatred. Apparently, your judgement is clouded by an illiterate Social Studies teacher who coached football? Just a guess.

One thing we can likely agree upon is that the state of public education in these United States is pretty dismal at most levels (as are many other things). But it's not just Social Studies. I've seen incompetence at just about every level in our public schools. (Never met an incompetent school janitor, come to think of it.)

As critical thinkers, we should be asking what the goals are and whether they are being met. I used to think that the goal of a High School education was to prepare one for life as an adult. If you want to be a rocket scientist or an engineer, that comes later, but as a High School graduate, you should be able to function more or less alone in today's world.

Ain't happening in most schools today. Not even close. In fact, it's so bad, one has to wonder if it was designed this way. Of course, some school districts are better than others (and Texas has some of the best, ahem), but by and large, it's a taxpayer subsidized babysitting service.

73, Rob

[K0RGR]

I'm not pleased by what I see in High School history text books in the last 20 years. Most history teachers, today, I think, don't rely much on the very bad textbooks their districts are often forced to use for political reasons, and instead rely on other materials.

Yes, a lot of the problem is 'political correctness' - the books have been forced to include so much material on women and minorities, and to downplay the contributions of white males that the important points about our history are lost in minutiae. But a lot of it is just horrid writing and worse editing. I'm surprised they even mention MR. Clinton. A chapter on daughter Chelsea wouldn't surprise me, though - that would be the kind of perfect pablum that is ideal for textbooks.

I think what is more disturbing is that here in Minnesota, there have been two men who won the Nobel Prize for literature. The kids will never hear about Oscar Wilde in school. Sadly, they never hear about Sinclair Lewis, either, and that's just a crime. At least we had to read his stuff when I was in school in California.

[nx6d]

Quote[/b] (K9STH @ Dec. 27 2005,17:44)]
STH:

I've looked for this on the net and I can't find it. Perhaps you can enlighten me with a link.

Quote[/b] ]A couple of years ago the history book that was being "pushed" by the teachers' union was reviewed and there were literally hundreds of "facts" and dates that were absolutely wrong. Like we fought England in the American Civil War! Like World War II was fought in the 1960s. And so forth. The publisher didn't want to have to make all of the changes so that book was removed from being offered in Texas. How many other states adopted the book I really don't know. But since the teachers' union was pushing the book I believe that a lot of them were sold, just not in Texas.

I realize it's really fun to bash teachers/teachers unions just like it's fun to bash lawyers.

THIS story is the most "out there" thing I've ever heard to use to bash teacher's unions. I'd LOVE to see your source on this one. Like I said before, I can't find one. This kind of thing would be a major scandal (at least in California) if true.

Could it be that minor factual mistakes morphed into "World War II fought in '60's" by those with an agenda? It's happened before and I'm sure it'll happen again.

[WB2WIK]

I think "history" is more accurately taught today than it's ever been, and it will continue to improve until it's nearly perfect. I have kids in L.A. schools who learn a lot more history than I did 35-40 years ago in New Jersey schools. Or, should I say, a lot "more accurate" history.

When I was in school, George Washington was not only our first President but also a great war hero. Only later in college (and much later than that) did I start reading more about old George, and how the Revolutionary battle lines kept moving because he kept retreating, losing almost every single battle of the Revolution by questionable strategy and lots of poor decisions. My old home town in NJ (Springfield) is a Revolutionary Battle town and site, where the British simply leveled the town and burned everything in it save a couple buildings that they used to house and hospice their own troops. Those are the oldest buildings in town today, and it's not because old George saved them. He was busy up the road in Morristown, losing that battle and retreating farther west.

But, although I understand what really happened now, we weren't taught it back in school four decades ago.

If we really want to understand history, it behooves us individually to pursue the facts. No single book has the whole story of anything important. No, not the Bible, either....

WB2WIK/6

[W2ILP]

I never had any teacher who was a sports coach , #except in High School coaches did also teach health education which was a job for the Physical Education department.
The only reason I referred to the football coach is that someone said his best Social Studies teacher was a football coach. #If you read my post I said that football coaches might be better teachers than non-jocks.

Anyway I guess that I am a tough judge of today's teachers. #This is because I compare teachers with the teachers that I had from first grade on who I believe were the best possible teachers I could have had. #I remember all of my grade school teachers and I hope that I remember all of the stuff that they taught me. #I was in first grade in 1939. #The world was still suffering a great depression and both parents and teachers were hopeful that times would get better. #In first grade my teacher was Miss Foy and in second grade my teacher was Mrs. Dunne. #I later realized that they were both Irish Catholics. #This didn't matter because they taught us kids in our Jewish and Black Bronx neighborhood with equal care and compassion. I learned to read from them. #Not just to read but to comprehend concepts and to be a good citizen. #Unfortunately my own kids never had teachers that were so dedicated to the importance of getting children properly started in the right direction.
And all through my elementary school years I had teachers that taught subjects like math and English grammer better than any I hear about today. #They seemed to teach with a purpose in the days when Americans could not think of outsourcing white collar jobs or factory jobs to foreign countries and it was imperative that each person grow up to be productive and self supporting. # ENUF SED. #
I didn't always get good academic grades in elementary and high school. #I didn't deserve better grades than the ones I got...but by today's standards, I would have been considered a genius because I did not rely just on teachers and text books. #My dad and Mom debated about politics and corrected my grammatical mistakes and reinforced a lot of what I learned. #I also talked to the parents of my friends. #Yep today adults don't want to talk to any kids but their own kids. #I learned that there can be different viewpoints about political stuff but not about accurate science. #I borrowed lots of books of all kinds from the public library and I discussed them with the smartest kids I could find to see what they thought. #I was a nerd but not a sheep.

w2ilp (I Learned Politics)...some of it was from my Dad who was an isolationist and some from my Mom who had had uncles in England and wanted the U.S. to go to war. # #This led to debates at the dinner table...which made me understand that neither could always be entirely correct.

[KD7WHQ]

Curriculum..

Why is it vitually NOTHING of WWI is taught? The situation resulting after precipitated WWII, but none of this is taught.

The one and only time combatants tossed aside their weapons and met in friendship; 1914, christmas. Search "christmas peace", and you'll have more than you got in school.

Tie the lines between the two wars, and you'll find the Versailles Treaty, which drove Germany to a level that it took a wheelbarrow load of 25K mark notes to buy a loaf of bread.

ANYONE promising better was sure to be elected, and it was delivered, for a time, and then..

Even this much is missing entirely. Myriad more is missing as well.

Mostly on the WWI side. What was it about aside from an attempt at domination? Takes a LOT of digging on the internet to even start to find out.

With history, if you don't know the mistakes made, you are sure to make them again.

What has happened in the last 20 years is going to be subject to spin; no out.

But 50 years and better back, there isn't an excuse..

I started with WWII, and then came into possession of a 25K mark note dated 1929. I got curious.

History can be fascinating as well as entertaining, and is ill taught..

[al2i]

I am writing this from memory that is fairly old, su forgive me if my facts are imperfect.

Richard Feynman wrote of his experience when he was asked to be on California's math textbook review committee. The competing publishers provided each person on the committee info explaining all about their respective texts. They called, they wanted to answer any questions, they wanted to visit, go to dinner, etc., etc.

Feynman was surprised by all of this attention and declined it all. He didn't want any of their "information" or "explanations" about the math textbooks, preferring to review each text for himself.

Feynman was really dissappointed in the texts.

When the committee met and began discussing the texts, the other committee members started discussing the texts rather animatedly, but when Feynman mentioned some fact or made some comment about one of the texts that wasn't in the provided info, the other committee members drew a blank. It soon became obvious that Feynman was the only committee member who had actually read the math texts.

The experience really soured him on the public school text selection process and he never did it again.

[W8EFA]

From KLBQuote[/b] ]It's seems our children aren't being taught the WHOLE truth about certain event's that have taken place over the years in White House, especially concerning one President's "fling" with a certain former White house intern in some history text books.


How much you want to bet that KLB is a JFK lover? Shouldn't we put in the history books also about JFK's affair with a russian agent? How about secret service agents sneaking JFK's women out the back door of the White House as Jackie was entering the front?

Clinton lying about an affair doesn't compare to Bush lying to start a War. Nobody died from Clintons lie.

[N7VQM]

Quote[/b] (KD7WHQ @ Dec. 28 2005,21:00)]Curriculum..

Why is it vitually NOTHING of WWI is taught? #The situation resulting after precipitated WWII, but none of this is taught.
A question similar to this was asked of our teacher in my second highschool history class (in '94). #The answer was: "We just don't have the time. #Going to the library IS part of the class requirements. #You can use the subject for an essay grade."

Of all the classes I had in highschool, that class was 2nd most difficult, in my opinion. #I wrote 5 times the essay pages in that class as I did for my English Lit that year. #Too bad all the effort I put forth in that class didn't result in a great deal of retention.

[w5lda]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Dec. 28 2005,18:52)]From KLBQuote[/b] ]It's seems our children aren't being taught the WHOLE truth about certain event's that have taken place over the years in White House, especially concerning one President's "fling" with a certain former White house intern in some history text books.


How much you want to bet that KLB is a JFK lover? #Shouldn't we put in the history books also about JFK's affair with a russian agent? #How about secret service agents sneaking JFK's women out the back door of the White House as Jackie was entering the front?

Clinton lying about an affair doesn't compare to Bush lying to start a War. #Nobody died from Clintons lie.
I can't wait till they put Baby Bush in the history books.
What a read that will be. The man is a habitual liar!

[k0ews]

KD7WHQ, You make an excellent post.
History in many high schools is taught as a one year class for U.S. History. That's 2 semesters to cover everything we as a nation have done. I've heard several history teachers complain about that very thing; not enough time to cover everything well.
World War I was important to U.S. History, and should be covered, but we didn't get involved until 1917. It was largely a European war. We played a big role in it, and it did thrust America on the world stage, but I can see why it doesn't carry as much "weight" as WWII.
I fully agree with you on the Versailles treaty. Someone at the time said that it wasn't an Amistace, but a ceasfire for 20 years. I cannot recall who, but their words were very prophetic.
We did, however, learn from our mistake from Versailles, and that resulted in the Marshall Plan. That plan was very good, and probably saved Europe from what could have been Soviet domination.
Your comments about anyone promising a better life getting elected are very interesting. Adolph Hitler and F.D.R. have some very strange parallels throughout history. Both rose to power in the Great Depression. Both died the same year. One "rebuilt" his nation through re-arming them. One did the same thing through the New Deal.
I'm afraid that we will never teach the kids as much history as we should. To me, as long as we only give U.S. history one year in high school curriculum, we won't ever cover anything in depth.

[w5klb]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Dec. 28 2005,23:52)]From KLBQuote[/b] ]It's seems our children aren't being taught the WHOLE truth about certain event's that have taken place over the years in White House, especially concerning one President's "fling" with a certain former White house intern in some history text books.


How much you want to bet that KLB is a JFK lover? #Shouldn't we put in the history books also about JFK's affair with a russian agent? #How about secret service agents sneaking JFK's women out the back door of the White House as Jackie was entering the front?

Clinton lying about an affair doesn't compare to Bush lying to start a War. #Nobody died from Clintons lie.
JFK.. JFK... John F. Kerry of Massachusetts? No, I don't care for him at all... oh ... you're talking about the OTHER JFK... I gotcha! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

President Kennedy had his "flings" also. The more famous affair was the one with Norma Jean Baker a.k.a. Marilyn Monroe.

I notice the parrallels between Clinton and Kennedy. Both were Democrats, both had extramaritial affairs, and both use the same desk when they occupied the Oval Office. It was no secrete that Kennedy was Clinton's mentor. The only difference was that it was a different time. The media was more "kinder" to JFK then.

To Mr. Larry, KD5VSG,

I'll tell you like I have told others on this forum concerning Bush being a "liar": If you think that he is lying than contact Congressman John Sullivan, and tell him your "concerns". If Bush is "lying", that needs to be addressed, but you won't do that because, like others on this board who have tried to accuse Bush of "lying", it hard to accuse someone of something they haven't done. What you need is PROOF, and no one' thus far has been able to come up with any hard proof. 'Nuff said.

[W2ILP]

al2i
I am very glad that you brought up Richard Feynman's criticism of science text books. He is in a way my hero...although if you read his biography one might say that after his wife died he went crazy. Nobody is perfect.
Anyway back to what is wrong with today's teaching and textbooks. The trouble is that the people who write the text books try to make simple things that they themselves don't fully understand even simpler and in doing so they teach wrong concepts and use wrong methods and confusing sequences to explain very simple concepts. . Feynman pointed out that the guy who wrote the science text book did not know the definition of ENERGY and in trying to define it to children he gave very incorrect examples.

The most important thing we learn how to do is to read. Once one learns to read properly he or she can go to a library or scan the Internet and find answers to everything he or she is curious about or might want to know more about. In this way you can often teach yourself stuff that the schools left out. You can at least follow instructions if you are building a kit of any kind that comes with a manual.

My biggest complaint is that kids are now taught to read by "phonics". I learned to read by what is called "whole word recognition". In first grade we would be given a lot of mimeographed papers. We had to cut out pieces of paper that said "boy" "girl" "mother" father"...etc. Then we had to paste the papers of a boy, a girl, a adult female, an adult male, etc. with white paste under the appropriate pictures. We also colored the pictures with crayons. Now they teach by phonics a syllable at a time. I learned that if you want to teach Morse Code you can't teach by telling the would be Ham to count the dots and dashes. If you want the student of CW to learn in a way that will enable him or her to rapidly increase speed you must start with whole character recognition and if you want to get the learner's speed up to more than about 10 wpm you had better teach that DiDah Dahdit Dahdidit is "and" and also to recognize the sounds of many common syllables. If you are busy counting dits and dahs you will never get to pass a 20 wpm test. In the same way if your brain is busy sounding out phonics you will never read fluently enough to comprehend what you are reading at the same time that you put the sounds together. I also debunk all the speed residing course that were once a fad. Reading means comprehending what the author meant. You can not read faster than you can think and if you read by rapid scanning you may not understand what you are reading...Just like a few guys here who never seem to understand what I am trying to say. They scan my posts and may even sound out most of what I wrote and just comprehend one sentence and maybe the sign off attempt at humor...but they never seem to comprehend the real meaning of my message. How can they ever expect to understand Shakespeare? I can't speed read Hamlet and understand what is to be or not to be. I have to understand a lot of the culture that existed when the Bard wrote Hamlet. This keeps my brain busy with no time left to connect phonics. Now we also have a lot of guys here who can't read the U.S. Constitution. They even write the words here but can't seem to comprehend any meanings that are relative to the threads.
The phonics method can actually show good results in first grade because it can get kids to read faster than the whole word method BUT this becomes a disaster when the kids are asked to comprehend stuff that they are supposed to be capable of reading from fourth grade on. I think that many of the people in the U.S. have reading comprehension difficulties and don't know it. Maybe that is why many Chinese people comprehend stuff easier than Americans. Chinese are taught to read WHOLE WORD pictograms. Thus need not a phonetic alphabet.
I admit it is hard to read many characters of Chinese Kunji but once learned it gives its readers a chance to use their minds for more useful purposes than connecting sounds.

w2ilp (Ignoramuses Like "Phonics")

[W8EFA]

FRom KLBQuote[/b] ]I'll tell you like I have told others on this forum concerning Bush being a "liar": If you think that he is lying than contact Congressman John Sullivan, and tell him your "concerns". If Bush is "lying", that needs to be addressed, but you won't do that because, like others on this board who have tried to accuse Bush of "lying", it hard to accuse someone of something they haven't done. What you need is PROOF, and no one' thus far has been able to come up with any hard proof. 'Nuff said.


We have pointed out many times to you the Bush Lies, you just are so biased you can't deal with it. Fortunately the American people know he is a liar!
--------------------------------------------------------------------

The Harris Poll. Nov. 8-13, 2005. N=1,011 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults).

"Do you think that the Bush Administration generally provides accurate information regarding current issues or do you think they generally mislead the public on current issues to achieve their own end?"

Accurate Misleading Unsure
% % %
ALL adults 32 64 4

------------------------------------------------------------------
Associated Press-Ipsos poll conducted by Ipsos-Public Affairs. Nov. 7-9, 2005. N=1,000 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.1.

"Now I'm going to read you some words that might be used to describe a person. As I read each word, please tell me whether you think the word describes George W. Bush or not . . . ."

Yes No Unsure
% % %
Stubborn
11/7-9/05 82 17 1

Honest
11/7-9/05 42 57 1

"Do you think the Bush Administration has high ethical standards or not?"

Does Does Not Unsure
% % %
11/7-9/05 41 57 2

"He is honest and trustworthy"

11/2/05 40 58 2

"Do you think the overall level of ethics and honesty in the federal government has risen, fallen or stayed the same with Bush as president?"

Risen Fallen Stayedthe Same Unsure
% % % %
11/2/05
17 43 39 1

[KD6NIG]

Its funny that I see someone making comments about PE teachers teaching US history.

My high school experience with US history was...well...read chapter 2 and answer the questions, I'll be back in a few minutes.

Our teacher was the Vice Principal of the school. Now, being in a small community, everyone had to wear more than 'one hat' or they simply would not be able to cover all the required courses.

But the problem was, invaribly, he wouldn't show up for the class, and/or about 10 minutes into it he would be called out of it to do something or another. So, we'd get our assignment, the entire class would spend about 10 minutes quickly finding the answers to the question, and then we'd have the remainder of the class (usually) to discuss anything BUT US history.

I don't blame the teacher, he did his best and we would have weekly tests on what we had read in the book, and when he could stick around, we did have some lively and interesting discussions, and he was definetely up on his US history-but 90% of the time he simply wasn't there, so we had to rely on the book.

Unfortunately that same district is having even more problems with funding now, and everything outside of actual teaching is usually funded via community donations (sports, field trips, etc etc) I think they only have football/basketball for the boys and volleyball and softball for the girls now because of this.

But even with this, there were some good teachers. My english teacher was EXCELLENT as well as my science teacher (though I didn't excel in science, really). They both came in every day and gave 110%. Our typing/computer teacher was also excellent, and in my senior year I basically became her teachers assistant for 2 periods a day (fixing computer breakdowns, reformatting data disks, recovering passwords for the typing program they used, etc) My math teacher was a hard a$$, but you know what, I learned more because I was forced to learn and was pushed to not just know math, but to be able to explain why I reached the answers I did.

The district didn't pay as well simply because they couldn't afford it, and with that came difficulty in obtaining teachers to teach, but the ones we got were excellent-probably because they only worried about having enough money to make a comfortable living because teaching came first for them. Either that or they were just into it, I dunno, but there was a very good crop of them in there when I, and my brother, passed though the schools there. About a year after my brother graduated was when times got really hard for that district, and they are still like that today. My dad still donates yearly to the fund for the sports portion, and usually winds up getting free tickets to a football game or two in thanks for his donation.

The books though, wern't perfect. I remember my math teacher in particular asking someone how they got an answer, announcing (off his 'key') that they were wrong, then having said student prove that the textbook was wrong and a correction being made. After about the 4th year the district wanted to change books, he convinced them not to, simply because he and his classes had finally corrected them to the point that they were now accurate. I do recall a date or 2 being corrected in US history also.

I don't know now how much influence the internet has on school learning. I just learned that my high school that I went to just got internet access in the computer lab FINALLY last year, so that shows how far behind that district is running. I don't know if they got it as a gift from a local provider, were required to, or what, but thats where they stand now, apparrantly (they may have gotten it earlier, but from word of mouth, it sounds like it finally was in at the beginning of this year).

Most of my history, because of all this, is being self taught, as some of you have said. Is that a bad thing? Probably, but when I was 17, a senior in high school, and no teacher was in my US history class, I thought it was way cool. Being 31 now, I wish the teacher could have been there more often.

[w5klb]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Dec. 29 2005,11:01)]FRom KLBQuote[/b] ]I'll tell you like I have told others on this forum concerning Bush being a "liar": If you think that he is lying than contact Congressman John Sullivan, and tell him your "concerns". If Bush is "lying", that needs to be addressed, but you won't do that because, like others on this board who have tried to accuse Bush of "lying", it hard to accuse someone of something they haven't done. What you need is PROOF, and no one' thus far has been able to come up with any hard proof. 'Nuff said.


We have pointed out many times to you the Bush Lies, you just are so biased you can't deal with it. #Fortunately the American people know he is a liar!
--------------------------------------------------------------------

The Harris Poll. Nov. 8-13, 2005. N=1,011 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults).
#
"Do you think that the Bush Administration generally provides accurate information regarding current issues or do you think they generally mislead the public on current issues to achieve their own end?"
#
# # # # # # # # #Accurate # # # #Misleading # # # # Unsure #
# # # # # # # # # # % # # # # # # # # #% # # # # # # # # # #% #
ALL adults # # 32 # # # # # # # # 64 # # # # # # # # # # #4

------------------------------------------------------------------
Associated Press-Ipsos poll conducted by Ipsos-Public Affairs. Nov. 7-9, 2005. N=1,000 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.1.
#
"Now I'm going to read you some words that might be used to describe a person. As I read each word, please tell me whether you think the word describes George W. Bush or not . . . ."

# # # # # # # # # #Yes # # # # #No # # # # # # Unsure #
# # # # # # # # # # % # # # # # #% # # # # # # #% #
Stubborn
11/7-9/05 # # #82 # # # # # #17 # # # # # # # 1

Honest
11/7-9/05 # # #42 # # # # # #57 # # # # # # # 1

"Do you think the Bush Administration has high ethical standards or not?"

# # # # # # # # #Does # # # # # # # Does Not # # # # # Unsure #
# # # # # # # # # % # # # # # # # # # # % # # # # # # # # # #% #
11/7-9/05 # #41 # # # # # # # # # #57 # # # # # # # # # # 2

"He is honest and trustworthy"

11/2/05 # # # 40 # # # # # # # # # # 58 # # # # # # # # # # #2

"Do you think the overall level of ethics and honesty in the federal government has risen, fallen or stayed the same with Bush as president?"

# #Risen # # # # # Fallen # # #Stayedthe Same # #Unsure #
# # # #% # # # # # #% # # # # # # # #% # # # # # # # # # % #
11/2/05
# # # 17 # # # # # #43 # # # # # # # #39 # # # # # # # # # #1
Bill,

I'll bet you got this from some liberal/socialist blog, or fish wrap.

The Democratic/Liberal/Socialist propagandist can quote numbers until the are "blue" (Ahem) in the face. Your biggest frustration is that you all "think" he "lied" and you have no proof. Until you get some PROOF, you might as well go back and peddle this rhetoric and conjecture on that liberal/social blog or fishwrap from where it came. It's a NO SALE to the MAJORITY (in which your political organisation is a MINORITY) of mainstream America. In short: your "preaching to the choir" here. It's time MoveOn and get some FRESH propaganda. This difference in opinion is becomming an ambient air temperature equine and is getting OLD, very OLD.

But the ORGINAL topic of this thread is what they are leavng out in the history books.

We now return you to our program already in progress...

[al2i]

Even the best politicians who care about the truth will spin, spin, spin, until they confuse their moral compass and can no longer find the truth. The worst politicians don't care about truth.

[W2ILP]

History can not be taught in classrooms alone. #There is not enough time to teach all of the important world history or even the important American history in the time allotted for history courses. #When I went to school, I started before the end of WW2. #Thus WW2, the Korean war, the Vietnam and the recent Gulf war wasn't history yet. #There is always going to be more history. #That is why I gave up stamp collecting when I realized that there would always be more stamps issued and I could never expect to afford a complete collection of any kind. #Thus I believe that a good teacher will lead the class to lots of reference material and expect good students to do a lot of history book reading on their own. #There are also specialized history books that must be read. #Like the histories of science and inventions. #Read it all and you will know that Tesla was an inventor of motors and generators and knew nothing about how radio works....but don't just read what is in one book that didn't care to credit Marconi with developing the first long range radio system because it preferred to credit a Serb who became an American citizen and deny an Italian who returned to Italy. # Read it all and you will find that lots of heroes were not heroes. #You also have to read newspapers. Current events quickly add to history. #
I remember when a teacher had us write essays about her hero, Charles Lindburgh. #She told us that he was the most moral man alive because he did not want to get friendly with either New York showgirls or Paris female fans who adored him. He was a married man with morals and self control...BUT I read later that the heirs of Lucky Lindy included children from his common law German mistress, who his wife supposedly knew nothing about. #Now that's history. When I was a kid I had written that I knew that Lindy had organized a NAZI Bund rally in Madison Square Garden before WW2 started. #The teacher knew nothing about that and didn't believe me. #She had to go ask some other teachers. #If they didn't tell her I was telling the truth I could have gotten expelled.

When we read scandalous stuff about JFK and Lindy that is now a part of history and see how many folks still laud those guys..You can understand that its all timing. #Clinton might be remembered as a hero if Monica didn't present her dress for DNA samples until after he was dead for 50 years...and it was just history. #Nobody cares to remember historical facts.
My prediction is that GWB will be recognized as a scoundrel in his own time..in his case starting a needless war could never be justified even if a lot more facts are only brought to light 50 years from now.

Unfortunately we can learn history but we can never seem to learn from history.

w2ilp (I Live Presently)...I'm not history yet.

[KW4MW]

My junior year of high school:

I was on the football team, the football coach taught American history.

All juniors on the football team were scheduled for the last American History class of the day with the football coach. #This meant that about halfway through the class we would all be excused in order to go to the locker room and dress out for practice. #The coach would then pick one of the other students to monitor the class and he would also slip off to the football field himself. #

Yep, unofficially we all knew that we would get at least a 'B' - otherwise we would be ineligible to play football. #

Nice racket, when you're a smarta$$ed teen jock.

Enter the spoiler! #I suppose that the principal finally caught onto the little scheme and so scheduled a young lady from the local college to student teach that class. #The coach was all for that since it meant that he could leave her in charge and he could concentrate on football. #

Unfortunately, this meant that we would no longer be excused early for practice. #

Even more unfortunate was the fact that the young lady began teaching after more than a month of the semester had passed and I hadn't retained a single fact. #

Most unfortunate - she was a harda$$ and expected us students to know as much as she did. #

Myself and the other 'jocks' were clueless. #I busted my butt trying to catch up with the rest of the class, but it looked grim going into the final exam, if I were lucky I might be able to barely eke out a D for the course. #

Day of the final exam. #Miss HA arrives looking serious and meaning business # - #Coach enters classroom and tells her that she is needed in the admin office right away. #When she objects, he insists and tells her he will take over until she gets back. #

Miss HA leaves for admin. #

Coach tells us that he has looked at Miss HA's test and that except for a few questions it is all True or False answers and that over 70% of the answers are True.

Relief flows through myself and team-mates.

Coach slinks out of side door just as Miss HA returns totally pissed off because admin said they had no idea why she was there.

Several of the girls greet her at the door and inform her of what had just transpired with the coach. #

Miss HA, now really PO'ed, informs us that if anyone marks all of their answers as true she will flunk us anyway. #

I, as well as my team-mates marked as false only those that we truly knew to be so. #

I got a 'B' on the final, 'C' for the course. #A few years later I would repeat American History in college, learning what I should have learned in HS.

In retrospect the coach was way wrong in allowing the team members to slide, we were cheated out of a semester of history and Miss HA was probably dealt a crushing blow to her dream of being a teacher.

Somehow though, I believe that the 'jock status' syndrome is still alive and well in High Schools and Colleges all across the fruited plains.

[W8EFA]

Quote[/b] ]I'll bet you got this from some liberal/socialist blog, or fish wrap
Obviously you didn't take the time to read it which doesn't surprise me as you refuse to consider facts in preference to blind faith. #The polls were taken by the Associated Press and the Harris Poll. #Certainly not Blogs but 2 well known mainstream news sources.

The American people have their proof. They remember Bush pushing this War with misleading lies, enhancing intelligence about WMD's, squashing factual info that went against his plans to invade. We have eyewitness accounts of his lying by Richard Clarke and others. We have the Downing street memos which you refuse to believe but Tony Blair authenticated. We have his cronies all being indicted for breaking the law.

No as the Polls indicate the American people believe they have been misled and lied to. You are in the minority.

[W2ILP]

Teaching techniques are never understood by students unless they themselves learn to be teachers. Now remember in my previous post where I said that the kids colored with crayons the pictures that they pasted whole words under in first grade. Why do you think the kids had to color the pictures?

It was to keep the kids busy while the teacher went arouind the room checking that nobody pasted any stuff on their neighbors, or ate any paste, or didn't know how to follow instructions. There were 25 kids in the class and that took enough time for the kids to finish crayoning most of the pictures. You couldn't just make them wait doing nothing. As the teaher said.."The Devil finds use for idle hands".

How true! I bet some modern teachers don't know that and kids find time to carve all sorts of curses and trivia on their desks or in the rest rooms.

w2ilp (Impatience Lacks Patients)

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Dec. 29 2005,11:59)]No as the Polls indicate the American people believe they have been misled and lied to. You are in the minority.
Poll numbers provide no evidence to support your case, and employing them discredits the remainder of your reasoning, if there is any.

In fact, using polls in support of your case is the error of Ad Populum, also known as the logical fallacy of Appeal to Popularity.

[w5klb]

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Dec. 29 2005,11:47)]Clinton might be remembered as a hero if Monica didn't present her dress for DNA samples until after he was dead for 50 years...and it was just history...

You also forgot Jennifer Flowers, Susan McDougal, who was held in contempt and went to jail...

Or how about Klinton going to England #to become a "Rhode's Scholar"? It was rather "strange" that he did this to AVOID the Vietnam Draft.

Or all the felons Klinton gave a "Presidential Pardon" to be released from jail...

Or all idiotic "Executive Orders" Klinton put into place that President Bush immediatly resended after he took office.

Or how about his staff stealing public property like Air Force One's Aircraft Log Book, compasses and drinking glasses. And let's not forget Hillary getting caught stealing White House funiture. Maybe she thought it was another Holiday Inn in Arkansas. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

"...and it's just history."

Yep, Klinton was a TRUE "hero" and "patriot"--NOT!


Quote[/b] ]My prediction is that GWB will be recognized as a scoundrel in his own time..in his case starting a needless war could never be justified even if a lot more facts are brought to light 50 years from now.

Well, "scoudrel" or not, you couldn't convince our troops or the Iraqis that this war was "needless". Those Iraqi's liked having to "ink" their fingers to vote in FREE elections. But I will agree with you on the fact that President Bush will be chronicled as one of the worse Presidents in history by the liberal time honored and tested practice of EXCLUDING IMPORTANT FACTS on writing and teaching "history" to our children. Thank you for demonstrating my point. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 29 2005,11:44)]Even the best politicians who care about the truth will spin, spin, spin, until they confuse their moral compass and can no longer find the truth. The worst politicians don't care about truth.
Actually this applies to anyone who is deeply partisan, not necessarily just politicians, but I guess we are all politicians to some tiny extent or another. It is part of human nature -- as is vomiting.

[ka5s]

History teaches us that the Roman republic ceased to be one when big landowners became able to buy out or drive off the small ones -- and rich enough to buy off or ignore the Roman senate. History is unpleasantly close to what we now face.

Cortland
KA5S

[w5klb]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Dec. 29 2005,11:59)]Quote[/b] ]I'll bet you got this from some liberal/socialist blog, or fish wrap
...#The polls were taken by the Associated Press and the Harris Poll... #
Proving *ONLY* "popular thinking. It's proof of NOTHING. You can't run a country based on a "popularity contest". The MAJORITY of MAINSTREAM America has elected Bush for a SECOND TERM. This FACT is not in dispute. Bush is sitting in the Oval Office doing his job, not base on a "poll" but on the job, "We, the people...", have elected him to do.

There's next years mid-term elections. Maybe your group will gain some ground, but I don't think so. Michael Moore(on), George Sorros (who's a naturalized citizen from the Czech Republic), Cindy Sheehan, John F(lipfop) Kerry, and Nancy Polosie have appeared to have DOOMED your party to outer fringes of Mainstream America. This the reason why President Bush is in the White House and Republicans control The House and Senate. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

So how much longer are we going to pulverize this dead equine? Like I posted before, it's time to MoveOn.

There, there, OM... I know truth hurts, but your going to have to face the fact that you all LOST. Go have a beer, or other beverage of your choice, and learn that acceptance is the answer for all our problems for today. #

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[w5lda]

Gary

Remember,,you brought this history crap up about Clinton
You are losing it dude,chill out. Why is it you start a thread about politics you get all bent out of shape when someone questions your posts.It is everyone's right to post their opinion as is yours,but to berate everyone who doesn't agree with you is childish,when in fact you try to insult them because they don't agree.
If you can't stand the peoples responses,then dont start the threads.
My opinion is mine ,but I won't contact any politician about any lies that I think Bush has done as it wouldn't do any good anyway.Your credibility is waning on this one

[W2ILP]

w5klb

Bill and Hillary had almost convinced the public that Flowers and McDougal were just looking for handouts and publicity...BUT
The DNA evidence on Monica's dress PROVED that Clinton did get off on Monica.

BTW Monica delayed producing the dress, but leaked stories about the affair. This left Clinton in a position (during the delay time) where he did not know if Monica would testify for or against him. Meanwhile he was so busy that he ignored a visit by Arafat, which might have led to some progress of a solution between the PLO and Israel. Monica's lawyer had gone to Israel during the period of unknown proof of Clinton's sexual conduct. I can't say for sure but Monica could have actually been an Israeli agent.
There is also so much in common between Monica Lewinsky and Chandra Levy that make me suspect that the Levy girl could have also have been an Israeli agent, whose mission was to stir up Washington so that they wouldn't be paying attention to the middle east. This would be hard to prove because we don't even know who killed her and why. Chandra might have threatened to tell something that would upset the U.S. or its friends. She could have been killed by a Muslim terrorist, an Israeli silencer, our own CIA or FBI...or just a bum. Maybe some day we will find out. Then it can only be history and all of the players will be dead. Maybe not.

w2ilp (Innuendos Lack Proof)...but DNA can't be forged.
Enuf sed.

[W2ILP]

ka5s

Yep..We can learn much from the fall of the ancient Roman Empire. The Romans grew lazy, being able to keep slaves to do their work and to exploit the colonies that they had previously conquered. They were no longer able to defend themselves from attack. The books that say that the Romans persecuted the early Christians are known to be exaggerating. It was said that once the Romans knew that they could not defeat the Barbarians (Gauls and Huns) they converted from Paganism and wanted everyone to be Christian and take pity on everyone else...and thus Christianity spread in Europe much faster than in Asia or Africa.

w2ilp (Italy's Last Pagans)...were eradicated during the fall of the Roman Empire.

[k4kyv]

Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Dec. 28 2005,11:13)]I realize it's really fun to bash teachers/teachers unions just like it's fun to bash lawyers.
And don't forget France.

[w5klb]

Quote[/b] (kd5vsg @ Dec. 29 2005,15:22)]Gary

Remember,,you brought this history crap up about Clinton
You are losing it dude,chill out. Why is it you start a thread about politics you get all bent out of shape when someone questions your posts.It is everyone's right to post their opinion as is yours,but to berate everyone who doesn't agree with you is childish,when in fact you try to insult them because they don't agree.
If you can't stand the peoples responses,then dont start the threads.
My opinion is mine ,but I won't contact any politician about any lies that I think Bush has done as it wouldn't do any good anyway.Your credibility is waning on this one
Larry,

NO ONE is getting bent "out of shape" about anything. I have absolutly no problem with someone disagreeing with me. They are well within their rights to do so. I encourage desent. What a dull world it would be if everyone thought alike. Diversity is a good thing, don't you think?

When someone says "Bush lied", all I asked was for proof, and to show it someone who has a little more "horsepower" in these matters than I. It won't do anyone a bit of good to tell me. I'm in no position to do anything about it, however a Congressman can do something. You said this, and all I was doing was making a suggestion. If this is your idea of "berating" someone, then you are misunderstanding me.

It's real simple Larry, if your going to make an accusation like that about someone, you best be prepaired to back it up with some facts. It has been my experiance that people who make claims that "Bush lied" are just expressing rhetoric and conjecture. Sorry, but it's not working and it's getting old.

Remember, these threads are like the VFO on your radio: If you don't like what you hear, there are other places on the spectrum you can go. The same applies to this forum: If you don't like what you read, go someplace else.

Loosen up, don't take life, or these threads so seriously. You'll feel better. In the end, it's all mind over matter: If you don't mind, it doesn't matter.

I hope you, your family and your brother have a safe and prosperous New Year. If I have offended you in any way, I offer my sincerest of apologies.

[N7VQM]

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Dec. 29 2005,10:50)]In the same way if your brain is busy sounding out phonics you will never read fluently enough to comprehend what you are reading at the same time that you put the sounds together.
I have to disagree with this because of personal experience.

I learned a little bit of phonics while attending daycare and kindergarten in England. When Dad got stationed back state-side, I started 1st grade where they were teaching "whole word recognition." After a few weeks, the teacher sent me to the 4th graders' classroom for the Reading subject. I was so far ahead of my cohort simply because I could use phonics to recongnize the sounds that certain combinations of letters make and put them together to form a whole word. Once I could hear the word, there was a good chance I'd heard it before in context and could comprehend it. Once that word had been encountered, I always know what it is on sight.

Now that I wrote the above, I think I know why I'm having a problem learning code. No, phonics has nothing to do with it. Ooh fun! A problem to solve!

[KD7WHQ]

EWS, thanks.

However it appears more people here are interested in teaching "current events" than history.

"Night of Broken Glass" should be required teaching. Something about a neighborhood of ill armed Jews holding off Hitler's finest, to the point that extreme measures were taken..

But that would put a dent in the "victim mentality." There are Jews that don't buy into it, which is how I learned of it in the first place.

A good number would rather be survivors.

Ah well, we go on.

Perhaps Versailles was deemed an embarassment, I don't know. But, it was 30 years out of school before I discovered the connection on my own. Became A+B=C real fast, I have to say.

As to FDR, I think we got the better bargain ;)

[w5lda]

Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 29 2005,15:17)]Quote[/b] (kd5vsg @ Dec. 29 2005,15:22)]Gary

Remember,,you brought this history crap up about Clinton
You are losing it dude,chill out. Why is it you start a thread about politics you get all bent out of shape when someone questions your posts.It is everyone's right to post their opinion as is yours,but to berate everyone who doesn't agree with you is childish,when in fact you try to insult them because they don't agree.
If you can't stand the peoples responses,then dont start the threads.
My opinion is mine ,but I won't contact any politician about any lies that I think Bush has done as it wouldn't do any good anyway.Your credibility is waning on this one
Larry,

NO ONE is getting bent "out of shape" about anything. I have absolutly no problem with someone disagreeing with me. They are well within their rights to do so. I encourage desent. What a dull world it would be if everyone thought alike. Diversity is a good thing, don't you think?

When someone says "Bush lied", all I asked was for proof, and to show it someone who has a little more "horsepower" in these matters than I. It won't do anyone a bit of good to tell me. I'm in no position to do anything about it, however a Congressman can do something. You said this, and all I was doing was making a suggestion. If this is your idea of "berating" someone, then you are misunderstanding me.

It's real simple Larry, if your going to make an accusation like that about someone, you best be prepaired to back it up with some facts. It has been my experiance that people who make claims that "Bush lied" are just expressing rhetoric and conjecture. Sorry, but it's not working and it's getting old.

Remember, these threads are like the VFO on your radio: If you don't like what you hear, there are other places on the spectrum you can go. The same applies to this forum: If you don't like what you read, go someplace else.

Loosen up, don't take life, or these threads so seriously. You'll feel better. In the end, it's all mind over matter: If you don't mind, it doesn't matter.

I hope you, your family and your brother have a safe and prosperous New Year. If I have offended you in any way, I offer my sincerest of apologies.
Ok Gary

Show proof that he "didn't" lie!You can't! How about "weapons of mass destruction"? Now you cant blame that on Clinton as the Bush administration had ample opportunity to research the facts but refused to do so as he was so intent on vengeance for Saddam threatening his daddy and you know it.Show me proof of the need to invade Iraq! You can't! Remember when he conceded that he had wrong information from his own administration?Wasn't it his Job to make absolutely sure the info was correct before putting our troops in jeopardy?So my opinion is he is a liar and you can't change my opinion or anyone else's regardless what party they are affiliated with.If it's rhetoric and conjecture,why do you keep bringing up the subject?
Oh,,I'll stay right here thank you because i still like to laugh.But maybe you should go some place else if you can't respect others opinions.

[al2i]

Partisans: Perhaps the word is twisted and is supposed to be two words, "Sans Party".

Just because reality is messy, is no reason to argue incessantly. Bush was wrong, knew he might be wrong, but took a chance, spinning all the way. The fact that neither of you seem to "get it" is starting to depress me.

Seriously the "Bush is a Liar" crowd is just as pathetic as the "My President, Right or Wrong" crowd.

[wa4brl]

Quote[/b] ]Seriously the "Bush is a Liar" crowd is just as pathetic as the "My President, Right or Wrong" crowd.

Wow! #Be careful with that "stark truth" stuff, AL2I. #If you don't sweeten it up with some pretty sprinkles, people are going to get their feelings hurt. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Seriously, though, I couldn't agree more. #Good going, OM.

[KW4MW]

VSGQuote[/b] ]Show proof that he "didn't" lie!
Ok, I have to jump in here - faulty logic and all that. #

Show proof that I didn't commit arson, sell dope, rob a bank or commit other crimes. #

You can't?

Well then I must be guilty as charged.

You have a scary thought process OM. #Scary!

[KG6JTB]

My 6 year old daughter just learned about Washington cutting down a cherry tree in 1st grade.

Washington never cut down a cherry tree! Mason Locke Weems wrote a biography of Washington published directly after his death. The book, "A History of the Life and Death, Virtues and Exploits, of General George Washington" was saturated with tales of Washington's selflessness and honesty, most completely fabricated to simply sell more copies.

After 200 years, we still are teaching our kids the wrong information.

Dave
KG6JTB

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (KG6JTB @ Dec. 30 2005,10:54)]My 6 year old daughter just learned about Washington cutting down a cherry tree in 1st grade.

Washington never cut down a cherry tree! Mason Locke Weems wrote a biography of Washington published directly after his death. The book, "A History of the Life and Death, Virtues and Exploits, of General George Washington" was saturated with tales of Washington's selflessness and honesty, most completely fabricated to simply sell more copies.

After 200 years, we still are teaching our kids the wrong information.

Dave
KG6JTB
Liars, liars, everywhere.

[w5lda]

Quote[/b] (KW4MW @ Dec. 30 2005,05:36)]VSGQuote[/b] ]Show proof that he "didn't" lie!
Ok, I have to jump in here - faulty logic and all that. #

Show proof that I didn't commit arson, sell dope, rob a bank or commit other crimes. #

You can't?

Well then I must be guilty as charged. #

You have a scary thought process OM. #Scary!
Ah,,finally someone who is thinking here.Nobody has to prove an opinion.An opinion is an opinion whether any proof is warranted or not.Now my opinion may or may not be right ,but still is my opinion.Did i mention opinion enough? At least i value your opinion as to whether my thought process is scary.To you it may be,to others,who knows.You see,its a 2way street,at least you can see it that way where others can't.No,,it's not faulty logic.Just a means to get someone to think before they react.And you did very well

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 30 2005,10:43)]Quote[/b] (wa4brl @ Dec. 30 2005,10:30)]Quote[/b] ]Seriously the "Bush is a Liar" crowd is just as pathetic as the "My President, Right or Wrong" crowd.

Wow! Be careful with that "stark truth" stuff, AL2I. If you don't sweeten it up with some pretty sprinkles, people are going to get their feelings hurt. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Seriously, though, I couldn't agree more. Good going, OM.
Looking back at my post it seems harsh. I was grumpy because I was trying to think of what was good about 2005, and it was good for just about every country that wasn't picking up after Mother Nature's excesses.
My entire post didn't go up. I thought I said that 2005 was great for every country that wasn't picking up after Mother Nature's excesses, but that in the US, it was a double-bad year because we were also picking up after the excesses of politicians.

[w5klb]

Quote[/b] (kd5vsg @ Dec. 30 2005,09:52)]Ok Gary

Show proof that he "didn't" lie!You can't! How about "weapons of mass destruction"? Now you cant blame that on Clinton as the Bush administration had ample opportunity to research the facts but refused to do so as he was so intent on vengeance for Saddam threatening his daddy and you know it.Show me proof of the need to invade Iraq! You can't! Remember when he conceded that he had wrong information from his own administration?Wasn't it his Job to make absolutely sure the info was correct before putting our troops in jeopardy?So my opinion is he is a liar and you can't change my opinion or anyone else's regardless what party they are affiliated with.If it's rhetoric and conjecture,why do you keep bringing up the subject?
Oh,,I'll stay right here thank you because i still like to laugh.But maybe you should go some place else if you can't respect others opinions.
Larry, VSG,

First, as much as I don't care for Clinton's politics, his morality issues, or his definition of "what 'is' is" when he was President, I don't blame Clinton for this. There are NO facts to support such a claim. And as much as you would like to believe that it was "vengence", the facts and history will prove otherwise.

Remember, it was George Tenent, a Clinton "holdover", that presented this information to President Bush. Mr. Tenent and the intellegence community, was relying on information from an Iraqi (I can't remember the guy's name) whom the Bush Adminstration favored to be Interim Prime Minister, that claimed "Bootlicker" was developing a weapons program, and he had WMD. Then we found later, AFTER we had invaded and the war was in full swing, that this Iraqi wasn't telling us the truth. George Tenant resigned over this information. Surely you do remember seeing this in the news.

Moral of story: Faulty Intellegence does NOT equal a "lie". Bush was only using what he thought was the best information at the time. Based on that faulty intellegence, he made the decision to go Iraq. He has accepted full responsibilty for this. But it's not a "lie".

But if you choose to continue to claim that "Bush Lied", you might as well claim that the following people also "lied":

Ted Kennedy
John Kerry
Hillary Clinton
Joseph Lieberman

These prominant Democrats in the US Senate must of "lied" also because they AGREED and SUPPORTED The President on his decision to go Iraq. Also, if you will remember, the UN Security Counsel, in a UN resolution, AGREED that Saddam Husein had WMD. This included France, Russia, Germany, and The United Kindom. So, by your standards, The UN Security Counsel must of "lied" also, right?

You and others are real quick to claim "Bush Lied", but you fail to mention who else "lied" about this on Capitol Hill and around the world. Yet, you and others exempt these individual Democratic Congressmen, Senators and world leaders from being "liars". It more liberal double standards.

This information can be found in news media archives, and on the web. This information isn't hard to get and it's information that Libs don't like to talk about because it dimishises the affect of their propaganda. They don't want people knowing the WHOLE truth.

Ok, that's my proof. Where's yours?

[W2ILP]

w5klb

I agree that all of the Democratic politicians that you mentioned were are all liars.

But who tells them to lie?
IMHO it is the same lobbyists who tell the Republican politicians to lie. #It only surprises me that the Democrats lie for smaller "contributions".

w2ilp (Inter-party Lying Politicians)...Its a Bipartisan practice.

[W2ILP]

n7vom

I respect your own opinion in regard to "phonics" verses "Whole Word Recognition".

If you read my post you will see that I said that those who learn to read with phonics can actually read faster than the whole word recognizers until 4th grade..BUt not after 4th grade.
After 4th grade things get harder. The kids have to read hard covered harder books with few if any pictures. Yep it is easier to read comic books and picture books than real hard books, which require imagination to visualize. People who can visualize what they are reading best can also understand what they are reading better, if they aren't busy connecting the phonics.

w2ilp (Imagine Less Pictures)..in the books ...but more in your brains and you can read between the lines. You might even comprehend my messages without emoticons.

[W2ILP]

When I was a kid I was told not only that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree BUT that he threw a half a dollar across the Potomac River. I dunno why he did that if it is true....but our government now throws 2.7 billion dollars all the way across the Atlantic Ocean to Israel every year. This is harder to believe than throwing a half a buck across the Potomac. I bet when it gets into the history books of the future nobody will ever believe it.

w2ilp (Its Legendarily Possible)...I think.

[w5klb]

Quote[/b] (kd5vsg @ Dec. 30 2005,10:58)]Quote[/b] (KW4MW @ Dec. 30 2005,05:36)]VSGQuote[/b] ]Show proof that he "didn't" lie!
Ok, I have to jump in here - faulty logic and all that. #

Show proof that I didn't commit arson, sell dope, rob a bank or commit other crimes. #

You can't?

Well then I must be guilty as charged. #

You have a scary thought process OM. #Scary!
Ah,,finally someone who is thinking here.Nobody has to prove an opinion.An opinion is an opinion whether any proof is warranted or not.Now my opinion may or may not be right ,but still is my opinion.Did i mention opinion enough? At least i value your opinion as to whether my thought process is scary.To you it may be,to others,who knows.You see,its a 2way street,at least you can see it that way where others can't.No,,it's not faulty logic.Just a means to get someone to think before they react.And you did very well
Larry,

Ok, so you think I'm full of you-know-what when it comes to my support of a President who I think is getting a "bad rap" for things he hasn't done nor can anyone, including you, prove. I backed my opinions up with facts. Have you? Nope, you have choosen to ignore my request to show where Bush has "lied". So who's really "loosing it" now? Do you think if you and other's like you repeat enough times that "Bush lied", that others would be so gullible to believe it without supporting evidence? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Have you heard of any "Impeachment Proceedings" being conducted against The President? No? But "he's guitly anyway", right? I have no problems with you disliking Bush, but at lease have a good reason, other than something you can't prove. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I guess that with some, it's "guilty until proven innocent". I'm glad that some of these people aren't Judges in our court system. Talk about a prison overcrowding ... wow!

[w5lda]

Gary

It makes no sense arguing with you. You're not going to respect my opinion and you havent proven a damn thing, and i don't have to prove anything. The American public see now what a mistake they made,so DROP IT!

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Dec. 30 2005,21:10)]When I was a kid I was told not only that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree BUT that he threw a half a dollar across the Potomac River. I dunno why he did that if it is true....but our government now throws 2.7 billion dollars all the way across the Atlantic Ocean to Israel every year. This is harder to believe than throwing a half a buck across the Potomac. I bet when it gets into the history books of the future nobody will ever believe it.

w2ilp (Its Legendarily Possible)...I think.
Both Republicans and Democrats fund Israel and Egypt. At least the Israelis get national medical insurance with my tax dollars.

[w5klb]

Quote[/b] (kd5vsg @ Dec. 31 2005,13:46)]Gary

It makes no sense arguing with you. You're not going to respect #my opinion #and you havent proven a damn thing, and i don't have to prove anything. The American public see now what a mistake #they made,so DROP IT!
You are choosing to take this just a bit too personal, when nothing personal was intendend. If you want continue feel that way, fine by me. They're your feelings, and you own them.

But I want to thank you for demostrating so well what I have been claiming all along: Bush hasn't lied about anything. I have yet to see anyone here, including you, provide any clear evidence of Bush "lying" or misleading the American People. If this is your idea of being "disrepectful" than all I can say is you have some "issues" that you need to deal with.

Consider this matter "dropped". Life's is far too short for you to be getting all upset over such petty matters.

[w5lda]

Gary

Get your damn head out from under that rock.If you think i have issues to deal with ,just dont respond to my posts and keep your mouth shut about my opinions.You havent proven anything with facts ,just look at his ratings,as those are the only facts that make a difference now.So quit crying like a 3rd grader when someone speaks their opinion of your hero.Work on your own issues.