H. Dean and the Dems are cowards, they want to [Archive]

w5klb

12-07-2005, 01:10 AM

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Dec. 06 2005,15:00)]Who is a coward? #GWB is the biggest coward we will ever see as a president of the U.S.A.
That should be obvious to all by now. #If it is not obvious to you then I guess that you have not been paying any attention.

w2ilp (Impeach Lying President)...and his vice.
Let's see...

Impeach Bush: Riiiight. He hasn't done anything wrong that rises to the standard of "Impeachment". But the "Constitutional Scholars" of the party of donkeys "thinks" he has.

Cheney and Haliburton: Once again, no proof.

Jail Karl Rove: Nope, that ain't work'n either.

Let's get I. "Scooter" Libby: Well, you guys forced a unecessary resignation, but the man still walks free.

"The Downing Street Memos": "Authenic Fakes".

Now, Bush is going after the "bad guys" and you all label him a "coward".

I don't know about the rest of ya, but I'm noticing a trend.

Then, there's Howard "I Have A Screem" Dean. To be honest and fair, most Dems just wish he would shut up. The more he opens his mouth to spew his liberal/socialistic double standards and distortions, the more nails he puts into the donkey's coffin (no pun intended, Greg). If he keeps those gums of his flapp'n in the breeze, the only left to do is to kick in the dirt on the donkey's grave.

On second thought... maybe you should let him continue his "discourse" on how the war is "unwinable". It makes for some great "sound bites", shows his mile wide yellow streak, and it's entertaining. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

W8EFA

12-07-2005, 02:37 AM

Anybody bother to look at the poll results for this CNN article?

Can the United States 'win' the war in Iraq?

Yes, within two years # # #13% #11191 votes #

Yes, but a long haul # # # #24% #20819 votes #

No # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #62% #52993 votes

Looks like Dean is thinking like most americans on this, not like the far right wing never admit we are wrong QRZ posters on here.

KF0RT

12-07-2005, 03:10 AM

Quote[/b] (k4kyv @ Dec. 06 2005,15:37)]He's not saying that the bad guys should win. He's saying that he doubts that the war can be won.

Iraq is an artificial country, built on the smoking ruins of the old Ottoman Empire by the victorious powers after WW1, without regard to the ethnicity of its inhabitants. From its inception, the so-called "nation" of Iraq has been held together solely by the brute force of dictatorship.

For those who think the present occupying "coalition" forces can really set up a US style democracy, with all Iraqis living together in blissful peace and harmony, please pass along to me a little hit of whatever you have been smoking.

The only way Iraq will ever be made to "work" without the glue of brute force will be to let it break up into three ethnic states: one Shi'ite, one Sunni, and an independent Kurdistan. And the conflict will never be completely settled until Kurdistan regains its rightful land that has been stolen and now illegally occupied by Turkey and Iran.
Finally. A voice of reason.

73, Rob

kc7jty

12-07-2005, 05:15 PM

GWB is a BOS. The United States deserves him and all the damage he is causing us, and if you question his position on ANYTHING you are unpatriotic.

Dean (who is a goof ball) is 100% correct on this.

C'mon W say something stupid then give us that goofy laugh, eh eh eh eh.

Its OK folks, the USA is big & powerfull enough to make continuous mistakes ad infinitum. Don't worry about it.

I miss seeing PAUL WOLFOWITZ regularly on the TV. Anybody with me on this one?

kc7jty

12-07-2005, 05:22 PM

Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 05 2005,19:10)]Now, Bush is going after the "bad guys" and you all label him a "coward".
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Yeah...right! How many more years do we have to wait shorty? Your base is dwindling fast, even the most seco brained among us are seeing the light.

W5KLB = vanity call

k6bbc

12-07-2005, 05:29 PM

k6bbc

12-07-2005, 05:40 PM

There you go again KWW.

I am stunned that anybody believe we can win in Iraq. We are fighting almost everybody there. It’s the only thing Iraqis agree on – they hate us. The best we can do is help the Shiite establish control and defeat the Sunnis – who are the secularist. The Shiite are strongly allied with Iran for Christ sakes.

This war was completely ill conceived by arrogant, ignorant assholes who clearly have no clue what to do now other than “stay the course” and spend all of national wealth and destroy our relationships with the world – and kill our soilders – not to mention apx 120,000 Iraqis who did NOTHING TO US. We look like fools.

I am frigging terrified we have a president who believes he has been chosen by God for this mission. That straight-jacket stuff my friends.

If we don’t get ourselves out of there, we are going to be in a world of hurt as our real competitor sit on the sidelines and take it all in smiling.

WAKE UP FOOLS!

K6BBC

al2i

12-07-2005, 05:55 PM

Dammit BBC. Quit doing that. I actually was feeling optimistic this morning.

All we have now is the possibility that the moron we elected will get lucky and the people of Iraq will do like he needs them to do. I'm the kind of guy who closes his eyes just before a crackup, and I want to do that everytime more news comes on about Iraq.

w5klb

12-08-2005, 01:06 AM

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 07 2005,10:22)]
Yeah...right! How many more years do we have to wait shorty? Your base is dwindling fast, even the most seco brained among us are seeing the light.

You need to quit watching so much TV. The returning troops I have talked to tell me a much different story than the "American Propaganda Outlets", a.k.a "The Liberal Media", have been trying to get their audiance to swallow.

And here's another "little point" that you're missing: Most everyone in Congress agrees that pulling out of Iraq would be "disasterous" (to quote Senator Lieberman of CT). Remember the vote on the non-binding resolution in Congress to pull our troops out of Iraq? It FAILED MISERABLY. So I think you are a "little" misinformed on your information, Sherlock.

Quote[/b] ]W5KLB = vanity call

You forgot to add that I'm a 5 WPM General. I didn't wait around for someone to "give me" an automatic upgrade like you're doing now. I did what I had to do to get my upgrade. And I am continuing to study to get my Extra. I didn't want a "gimme". I didn't want to wait for the FCC to drop Element 1 to take the "easy road". I EARNED my upgrade. At the rate you're going, you're going to placed in the "Guiness World Book of Records" for being the oldest Technican Class Amateur Radio Operater in the country. But that's YOUR decision, and not mine, thank gawd.

Just one other thing...

I really don't need to explain to you or ANYONE about my vanity call, but I will do it just this one time so TURN #OFF YOUR TV and pay attention:

The last three letters of my vanity call stand for the first letters in each of my three children's names, IF that's okay with YOU... (like I really need your approval for ANYTHING I do).

dit dit.

KD6NIG

12-08-2005, 01:39 AM

The real wake up call is the fact that if you want iraq to not only become free, but to remain free, our presence will always be nessacary, period. A handoff will just result in a few years (If we're lucky) of it lasting before some group organises and returns it to the way it was. Its not because they want it, mind you, but just the direction that they have taken in history normally.

The commitment there needs to be permenant, or its never going to work. The decision needs to be made now, or it can be made later, but once we leave, if a force isn't left to keep things the way they are, they won't stay that way for long.

Whatever happens in the future will be cognisant on the fact of us staying and helping to keep things going, or leaving and seeing what winds up taking the reins. If the forces there are strong enough (the insurgency) to give us issues, I have a feeling that whatever military iraq gets going won't be able to handle it without help.

kc7jty

12-08-2005, 01:53 AM

Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 06 2005,19:06)]pulling out of Iraq would be "disasterous" (to quote Senator Lieberman of CT).
What do you think pro Israel Jew (opps I mean Joe) #Lieberman's position will be?
The troops in Iraq are predominately pro Bush. Many are so gung ho they are reenlisting for a second tour. Kinda makes it OK in my book.

The thing will all be decided in time.....I can wait.

And as far as your passing a Morse test.......your nose is brown and mine AIN'T.

KI4BNC

12-08-2005, 02:24 AM

Quote[/b] (KE7DLG @ Dec. 07 2005,19:13)]Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 07 2005,12:06)]Just one other thing...

I really don't need to explain to you or ANYONE about my vanity call, but I will do it just this one time so TURN #OFF YOUR TV and pay attention:

The last three letters of my vanity call stand for the first letters in each of my three children's names, IF that's okay with YOU... (like I really need your approval for ANYTHING I do).
I was kind of wondering what the deal about the vanity call was myself. I didn't realize vanity calls were somehow demoralizing now. Sounded more like someone feeling their back against the wall coming out swinging with whatever they could come up with. I could be wrong but if so I don't see what your call, vanity or not, has to do with anything.

Personally about the only reason I didn't go to a vanity call to ensure a shorter call was that the original sequentially issued call from the FCC was pretty neat for luck of the draw. The last three letters of the call are practically an abbreviation for my last name. This was just too neat of a deal to give up as far as I was concerned.
talk about luck of the draw!!
wanted to change mine to something ending in rat-
was quickly discouraged
wanted a 2x2 or something-
quickly changed my mind.
luck of the draw...
living proof!
wouldn't trade it or change it for anything.
the onlything I have against vanity calls is that you have to pay every time you renew the ticket.
nothing personal,just think once is enough.

KE5FRF

12-08-2005, 02:48 AM

Quote[/b] (KI4BNC @ Dec. 07 2005,21:24)]Quote[/b] (KE7DLG @ Dec. 07 2005,19:13)]Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 07 2005,12:06)]Just one other thing...

I really don't need to explain to you or ANYONE about my vanity call, but I will do it just this one time so TURN #OFF YOUR TV and pay attention:

The last three letters of my vanity call stand for the first letters in each of my three children's names, IF that's okay with YOU... (like I really need your approval for ANYTHING I do).
I was kind of wondering what the deal about the vanity call was myself. I didn't realize vanity calls were somehow demoralizing now. Sounded more like someone feeling their back against the wall coming out swinging with whatever they could come up with. I could be wrong but if so I don't see what your call, vanity or not, has to do with anything.

Personally about the only reason I didn't go to a vanity call to ensure a shorter call was that the original sequentially issued call from the FCC was pretty neat for luck of the draw. The last three letters of the call are practically an abbreviation for my last name. This was just too neat of a deal to give up as far as I was concerned.
talk about luck of the draw!!
wanted to change mine to something ending in rat-
was quickly discouraged
wanted a 2x2 or something-
quickly changed my mind.
luck of the draw...
living proof!
wouldn't trade it or change it for anything.
the onlything I have against vanity calls is that you have to pay every time you renew the ticket.
nothing personal,just think once is enough.
BNC ain't bad and easy to remember, if you don't mind being an RF cable connection.

FRF doesn't resemble anything in my name, but makes a good abbreviation for "Fat Radio Fiend" or "Fine Radio Friend" or any number of things. Only bad thing is "F" sounds like "S" quite often to people, and so they copy KE5SRS. Its actually funny in a way, because people often confuse my middle name, Heath, for Keith, so any QSO starts off with a long phonetic spelling of my name and call. Another funny aspect of my name is that my first name is William, and my last name is Roberts, and all my life, people have swapped the two around, especially on forms where last name is written first, so it isn't unusual for people to confuse William Heath Roberts for "Robert Keith Williams". # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

N9XR

12-08-2005, 02:51 AM

I am truly baffled. These threads keep coming up trying to tell us that we did not win. What do we have to do to win? We have accomplished all objectives and completed all missions. Time to bring our troops home and we are finished.

What are we waiting for? We need our troops here. Katrina victims need assistance after over 3 months. Instead we are spending nearly a billion dollars a day to fool ourselves and tell ourselves that we have not yet won the war. Talk about tax and spend.

N9XR

KE5FRF

12-08-2005, 03:06 AM

Quote from article:Quote[/b] ]"I do not believe in making the same mistake twice, and America appears to have made the same mistake twice,"...Howard Dean

Well I don't have the answers for Iraq, all I can offer our troops is my support and encouragement to succeed, but it seems to me, the mistake we made in Vietnam was not COMMITING ourselves to victory, and fighting the war half-arsed, and pulling out before the job was done. I agree, we ARE making the same mistake twice, but that is because the liberals have convinced America the war can't be won, like they did in Nam, which has chipped away the faith in our President, undermining the effort, and is pressuring him to fight two wars, the political one at home and the real one over there. It is a distraction to our Executive branch and military that started from day one, and has only escalated as the war progressed. If the liberals had given the President two years of undivided support, free of those distractions, a more focused military could have overwhelmed the insurgency, and they would have sensed our unity and dismantled, but unfortunately, History IS repeating itself, just like Nam, and so Howard Deans forcast may be unfortunately true, but being a leader in his party, he is responsible.

Now, this is all a commentary on the POLITICS of the war, not the basis, or the justification for it. Mistakes were made, and yes, I blame our president for it, just as I would blame my company's CEO if my retirement fund dried up, but that is irrelevant now, because WE HAVE TO SUCCEED, or the 21st century will see the end of our great nation. JMHO.

N9XR

12-08-2005, 03:09 AM

Quote[/b] ] because WE HAVE TO SUCCEED, or the 21st century will see the end of our great nation

What is the milestone that we need to pass to succeed? We have accomplished all of Bush's stated objectives. What is left?

N9XR

KE5FRF

12-08-2005, 03:34 AM

Quote[/b] (n9xr @ Dec. 07 2005,22:09)]Quote[/b] ] because WE HAVE TO SUCCEED, or the 21st century will see the end of our great nation

What is the milestone that we need to pass to succeed? #We have accomplished all of Bush's stated objectives. #What is left?

N9XR
Well, just realize my views aren't much different than yours (If I read you correctly). I agree we have had a lot of success, and I do believe we can pull a lot of our forces out soon, with the understanding that we aren't giving up on Iraqs future. At some point, all we are going to be is babysitters, and the Iraqi people will have to learn to get along as a nation. Just like a child growing up, Iraq will eventually MATURE into its own stability, and that all has to happen under its own power, not ours.

However, to further explain my position on the future of our influence and power as a nation, there is a lot more eating away at us than problems in Iraq. Our jobs are moving overseas, our Universities are graduating nearly as many foreign students with uppergrad degrees as Americans. Our children our losing a decent grasp of the English language, and our morals have been flushed down the toilet because we can't even recognize our Christian heritage. And the devisiveness in our nation where Iraq is concerned is what makes us the laughing stock, because it exposes our underbelly, and when an animal's underbelly is exposed, he is prone to attack by the wolves, in our case terrorists. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

N9XR

12-08-2005, 04:07 AM

Thanks,

So are you saying it is worth the $billion a day to "babysit" a country who has had elections for politicians and their constitution already? Somehow, I do not have that on my list of priorities; worring about whether they get proper tort reform enacted in Iraq. What about the welfare system and Medicade entitlements. We are floating that stuff for now. Part of the $billion a day.

They keep telling us in the news what our problems are, but we never listen or watch. I know we keep trying to get this one Mullah, but he keeps getting our soldiers killed.

http://911review.com/911review/markup/OsamaBinAsset_files/mullah_bush.jpg

N9XR

k6bbc

12-08-2005, 06:03 AM

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Dec. 07 2005,20:06)]...we ARE making the same mistake twice, but that is because the liberals have convinced America the war can't be won, like they did in Nam, which has chipped away the faith in our President, undermining the effort, and is pressuring him to fight two wars, the political one at home and the real one over there.
Republican president, Republican Congress, conservative Supreme court, and somehow it’s the liberals fault?

Someone is smoking a bit too much Sean Hannity and the drug addicts from Florida’s BS.

bbc

ka9inv

12-08-2005, 06:46 AM

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Dec. 06 2005,13:37)]Anybody bother to look at the poll results for this CNN article?

Can the United States 'win' the war in Iraq?

Yes, within two years 13% 11191 votes

Yes, but a long haul 24% 20819 votes

No 62% 52993 votes

Looks like Dean is thinking like most americans on this, not like the far right wing never admit we are wrong QRZ posters on here.
A poll taken on CNN.com is neither a scientific poll nor a representation of the majority of the American people's views. Therefore, they should not be represented as such.

That is to say, who really cares what the CNN.com poll said? It means absolutely nothing.

We're going to end up pulling out just because all these morons in Washington with their elections to think about are going to do everything they can to undermine their opponents, even if it means demoralizing the country into believing we're in another Vietnam.

kf6rdn

12-08-2005, 06:49 AM

Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 07 2005,18:06)]The last three letters of my vanity call stand for the first letters in each of my three children's names, IF that's okay with YOU... (like I really need your approval for ANYTHING I do).
I was thinking of doing that. Except 2 of the 3 would be C & L which would kinda suck for CW.
But not that bad, at least the more "rythmic" letters.

w5klb

12-08-2005, 09:49 AM

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 07 2005,18:53)]And as far as your passing a Morse test.......your nose is brown and mine AIN'T.
Where does it say in the rules that someone's nose has to be "brown" to pass a code test? All it takes is to learn and listen. Heck, I have hearing problems and I passed. So if you want to let something like that hold you back and place limitations on yourself, once again, it's your decision. None of the rest of us are going to loose sleep over it.

BTW, I won't address the anti semitic remark. "Toleration" doesn't appear to be in your vocabulary.

w5klb

12-08-2005, 10:33 AM

Quote[/b] (n9xr @ Dec. 07 2005,19:51)]I am truly baffled. #These threads keep coming up trying to tell us that we did not win. #What do we have to do to win? #We have accomplished all objectives and completed all missions. #Time to bring our troops home and we are finished.

Where on earth did you get that idea? Oh... that's right. From the "Mission Accoplished" sign in background when Bush was addressing the nation aboard the USS Abraham Linclon. I explain that earlier in the thread. And if you have problems with my explaination, look up the archive on See BS's website. They explained it too.#

Quote[/b] ]What are we waiting for? #We need our troops here. #Katrina victims need assistance after over 3 months. #Instead we are spending nearly a billion dollars a day to fool ourselves and tell ourselves that we have not yet won the war. #Talk about tax and spend.

You need to be better informed. This "War on Terror" won't be won overnight. There are still some pretty rought times ahead. And protecting our shores to keep us safe an free is money well spent.

In case you haven't, or refused to #notice, our unemployment is dropping, and if you're working, you are probably enjoying more take home pay because of all the tax breaks that Bush has put into place. Would you prefer reverting back to what Klinton gave us: The biggest tax increase in the History of The United States? And let's not forget what ol "Chappaquidic" Ted Kennedy wanted to do: Reverse all those tax breaks Bush gave us. Naw, if you want "Tax and Spend", that's something the Demomcrats are REALLY good at doing. It's their "policy" to believe that there is no propblem that cannot be resolved by a suitable application of HUGE, EXPENSIVE goverment interfering with YOUR life, telling you what to do and when to do it. Democrats don't think the average American is smart enough to handle their own affairs, so they want to do it for you in a VERY EXPENSIVE way and you're going to pay... DEARLY.

al2i

12-08-2005, 10:47 AM

Gary,

Bush has spent, spent, spent, spent, and spent. The federal deficit is growing astronomically. The trade deficit has already take more from our country than you realize. We are in a quagmire of a war begotton of hubris as our more capable enemies sharpen their tools. Real hourly wages continue their multi-decade decline despite explosive growth in technology.

Yet you seem mostly interested in partisan defence of one set of politicians. Where is the logic?

nx6d

12-08-2005, 11:10 AM

Quote[/b] ]Well I don't have the answers for Iraq, all I can offer our troops is my support and encouragement to succeed, but it seems to me, the mistake we made in Vietnam was not COMMITING ourselves to victory, and fighting the war half-arsed, and pulling out before the job was done.

I've heard this line about Vietnam since the 70's and now it's being used in the Iraq mess.

I wish it were that simple to simply commit massive resources to "winning".

Vietnam was a losing proposition from day one. You had a highly motivated anti-colonialist indigenous population that was willing to take horrendous losses in human life to achieve their goal. You had the US government supporting corrupt puppet regimes that had no widespread support in the area they controlled in Vietnam, much less in the entire country.

No amount of dropping of ordnance on these people was going to stop them from achieving their goal of a united country. It's naive to think otherwise. It's hard to "bomb them back to the stone age" when they are essentially already there. #

Quote[/b] ]I agree, we ARE making the same mistake twice, but that is because the liberals have convinced America the war can't be won, like they did in Nam, which has chipped away the faith in our President, undermining the effort, and is pressuring him to fight two wars, the political one at home and the real one over there.

Poppycock. Nice talk radio soundbite, but completely untrue. President Bush doesn't need any help from "liberals" to undermine his efforts. This administration's lies to American public regarding the origins of the war and the shifting rationale for the war is enough justification for anyone paying attention to realize this whole operation is a fiasco.

No amount of flag waving, speeches in front of friendly audiences is going to change the fact that this war is complete mistake and a waste of resources.

You live in Louisiana, FRF. Take a drive to New Orleans or the Mississippi Gulf Coast. Check out Pass Christian or Waveland, MS. Those places are completely destroyed (I was there shortly after Katrina) with no real help from the federal government on the horizon. The money we are wasting on a fool's errand in Iraq should be spent on rebuilding Louisiana and Mississippi. We've wasted billions of dollars destabilizing the Middle East with NO real tangible goal.

Freedom and democracy? Great stuff, no doubt. How is "democracy" going to work in a nation that was carved out of the old Ottoman Empire by Western powers without regard to tribal and ethnic territories? #Saddam Hussein was to Iraq as Josef Broz Tito was to Yugoslavia. A strongman who kept everyone under control. As in Yugoslavia, the power vacuum created by the absence of Saddam will (not if) lead to civil war. Even in the best case scenario with the Shi'ites, Sunnis and Kurds getting their own governments, there's STILL the problem of greater Kurdistan. Some of Kurdistan is under control of Turkey and another potential war exists there. Who do we side with there? A NATO ally or a nation we "freed" from Saddam?

I'm not EVEN going to address the "terrorist" issue at length. Replace "communist" with "terrorist" in the McCarthy era writings of the '50's, and we have the same rhetoric spewing out from the right. Fear makes money for some people. It doesn't matter whether it's asbestos, mold, commies or terrorists, if you can scare people enough, someone's making a buck off of the fear.

Quote[/b] ]Now, this is all a commentary on the POLITICS of the war, not the basis, or the justification for it. Mistakes were made, and yes, I blame our president for it, just as I would blame my company's CEO if my retirement fund dried up, but that is irrelevant now, because WE HAVE TO SUCCEED, or the 21st century will see the end of our great nation. JMHO.

Wrong. "Success" is not possible without a tangible goal. We don't have one. Just a bunch of white noise about "democracy".

Howard Dean is right. Howard Dean has the courage to speak out and tell it like it is, despite all the juvenile name calling that comes from the right.

We need to get out of Iraq, NOW...

Dave WX7B

nx6d

12-08-2005, 11:26 AM

Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 08 2005,02:33)]
Quote[/b] ]You need to be better informed. This "War on Terror" won't be won overnight. There are still some pretty rought times ahead. And protecting our shores to keep us safe an free is money well spent.

C'mon, Gary, we've rehashed this over and over. How does destabilizing the Middle East by the US intervention in Iraq, "protect our shores"? It doesn't and you know it. The majority of the 9/11 bombers were Saudis. Maybe we invaded the wrong country using your logic. The "war on terror" is a figment of the Bush administration's imagination.

Quote[/b] ]In case you haven't, or refused to notice, our unemployment is dropping, and if you're working, you are probably enjoying more take home pay because of all the tax breaks that Bush has put into place.

I'd be happy to give up my miniscule "tax break" if the money was spent on Louisiana or Mississippi and not some stupid foreign adventure. Speaking of the actual amount of money, let's be honest here. Without getting into actual numbers, do you REALLY notice any difference in your taxes? If you're a middle class slob like I am, probably not. I bet I'd notice if my income was in excess of 1 million, though.

Quote[/b] ]And let's not forget what ol "Chappaquidic" Ted Kennedy wanted to do: Reverse all those tax breaks Bush gave us. Naw, if you want "Tax and Spend", that's something the Demomcrats are REALLY good at doing.

More "boogeyman" logic. Sorry, it doesn't fly. The Republican controlled Congress and Presidency has been spending us into oblivion. Can't blame the "liberals" for the current deficit.

BTW, Gary, it's "Chappaquidick". Why do you always bring that up? From now on, every time you mention Chappaquidick, I'm going to mention Laura Bush's at fault traffic accident where someone got killed. That was covered up by the local police. It's about as relevant as your constant Chappaquidick references.

Quote[/b] ]It's their "policy" to believe that there is no propblem that cannot be resolved by a suitable application of HUGE, EXPENSIVE goverment interfering with YOUR life, telling you what to do and when to do it. Democrats don't think the average American is smart enough to handle their own affairs, so they want to do it for you in a VERY EXPENSIVE way and you're going to pay... DEARLY.

Two words on "government interference". Patriot Act. 'nuff said.

BTW: Clinton, not "Klinton". What's with that?

Dave WX7B

kc7jty

12-08-2005, 05:23 PM

Quote[/b] (n9xr @ Dec. 06 2005,20:51)]I am truly baffled. #These threads keep coming up trying to tell us that we did not win. #What do we have to do to win? #We have accomplished all objectives and completed all missions. #Time to bring our troops home and we are finished. #
Obviously you don't know the reason for the Iraq invasion.
The protection of our buddies: Israel, Saudi Arabia, etc and the assurance of a cheap, uninterrupted oil flow from the region.
When are the Israelis gonna hit Iran? That should be a good show.

kc7jty

12-08-2005, 05:30 PM

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Dec. 06 2005,21:06)]Quote from article:Quote[/b] ]"I do not believe in making the same mistake twice, and America appears to have made the same mistake twice,"...Howard Dean

Well I don't have the answers for Iraq, all I can offer our troops is my support and encouragement to succeed, but it seems to me, the mistake we made in Vietnam was not COMMITING ourselves to victory, and fighting the war half-arsed, and pulling out before the job was done. I agree, we ARE making the same mistake twice, but that is because the liberals have convinced America the war can't be won, like they did in Nam, which has chipped away the faith in our President, undermining the effort, and is pressuring him to fight two wars, the political one at home and the real one over there. It is a distraction to our Executive branch and military that started from day one, and has only escalated as the war progressed. If the liberals had given the President two years of undivided support, free of those distractions, a more focused military could have overwhelmed the insurgency, and they would have sensed our unity and dismantled, but unfortunately, History IS repeating itself, just like Nam, and so Howard Deans forcast may be unfortunately true, but being a leader in his party, he is responsible.

Now, this is all a commentary on the POLITICS of the war, not the basis, or the justification for it. Mistakes were made, and yes, I blame our president for it, just as I would blame my company's CEO if my retirement fund dried up, but that is irrelevant now, because WE HAVE TO SUCCEED, or the 21st century will see the end of our great nation. JMHO.
According to BIG DICK Cheney's little pimp buddy (Paul Wolfowitz) Iraq was going to welcome us with open arms and wet lips.....a push over.

The government is run by incompetent, bungling boobs. We need to be retaught that regularly. Iraq is a good thing only because it will put a damper of our rogue government's resolve to behave wrecklessly in the future.

kc7jty

12-08-2005, 05:40 PM

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Dec. 06 2005,21:34)]we can't even recognize our Christian heritage.
It is the American christians who have given us George W Bu#### and his holy (god talks to him) crusade against the infidels.

Just like in the American revolution, the PATRIOTS will fight and resist the enemy until they leave our land and not before. If you want the so called terrorists to stop being a threat to us get out of their lands for they will not stop until we do.

KF0RT

12-08-2005, 05:43 PM

Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 08 2005,03:33)]In case you haven't, or refused to notice, our unemployment is dropping, and if you're working, you are probably enjoying more take home pay because of all the tax breaks that Bush has put into place. Would you prefer reverting back to what Klinton gave us: The biggest tax increase in the History of The United States? And let's not forget what ol "Chappaquidic" Ted Kennedy wanted to do: Reverse all those tax breaks Bush gave us. Naw, if you want "Tax and Spend", that's something the Demomcrats are REALLY good at doing. It's their "policy" to believe that there is no propblem that cannot be resolved by a suitable application of HUGE, EXPENSIVE goverment interfering with YOUR life, telling you what to do and when to do it. Democrats don't think the average American is smart enough to handle their own affairs, so they want to do it for you in a VERY EXPENSIVE way and you're going to pay... DEARLY.
I've said it before:

Liberal = Tax and spend
Conservative = Don't tax and don't spend
Neo-Con = Don't tax, spend anyway <--- YOU ARE HERE

The current Bush administration has outspent all other administrations, BAR NONE. New records daily!!! The HUGE, EXPENSIVE government is PRECISELY what we have right now.

73, Rob

kc7jty

12-08-2005, 05:46 PM

Quote[/b] (ka9inv @ Dec. 07 2005,00:46)]We're going to end up pulling out just because all these morons in Washington with their elections to think about are going to do everything they can to undermine their opponents, even if it means demoralizing the country into believing we're in another Vietnam.
The 100% Bull Sh*t that is the supreme norm in politics in the USA does not fly in the rest of the world. The politicians best suited to win elections here in fairyland are the exact same ones most likely to screw up when they put their hand to anything outside our borders in the real world.

kc7jty

12-08-2005, 05:48 PM

Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 07 2005,03:49)]BTW, I won't address the anti semitic remark. "Toleration" doesn't appear to be in your vocabulary.
Give me a break!

kc7jty

12-08-2005, 06:06 PM

Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Dec. 07 2005,05:26)]Laura Bush's at fault traffic accident where someone got killed. That was covered up by the local police.
That one has no weight for the Lord has already completely forgiven her.

KC2KFC

12-08-2005, 08:54 PM

Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Dec. 08 2005,10:43)]I've said it before:

Liberal = Tax and spend
Conservative = Don't tax and don't spend
Neo-Con = Don't tax, spend anyway <--- YOU ARE HERE

The current Bush administration has outspent all other administrations, BAR NONE. New records daily!!! The HUGE, EXPENSIVE government is PRECISELY what we have right now.

73, Rob
Amen to that. I am so sick of all the spending this administration has proposed and the congress has approved. Whatever happened the the mantra of smaller government? That is what true conservatism is about.

w5klb

12-08-2005, 09:33 PM

Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Dec. 08 2005,10:43)]Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 08 2005,03:33)]In case you haven't, or refused to #notice, our unemployment is dropping, and if you're working, you are probably enjoying more take home pay because of all the tax breaks that Bush has put into place. Would you prefer reverting back to what Klinton gave us: The biggest tax increase in the History of The United States? And let's not forget what ol "Chappaquidic" Ted Kennedy wanted to do: Reverse all those tax breaks Bush gave us. Naw, if you want "Tax and Spend", that's something the Demomcrats are REALLY good at doing. It's their "policy" to believe that there is no propblem that cannot be resolved by a suitable application of HUGE, EXPENSIVE goverment interfering with YOUR life, telling you what to do and when to do it. Democrats don't think the average American is smart enough to handle their own affairs, so they want to do it for you in a VERY EXPENSIVE way and you're going to pay... DEARLY.
I've said it before:

Liberal = Tax and spend
Conservative = Don't tax and don't spend
Neo-Con = Don't tax, spend anyway #<--- YOU ARE HERE

The current Bush administration has outspent all other administrations, BAR NONE. #New records daily!!! #The HUGE, EXPENSIVE government is PRECISELY what we have right now.

73, Rob
Rob,

In case you haven't noticed, we are a war. Wars cost money. Safeguarding our nation from terrorist threats cost money. Revamping our Intellegence and organizing the new Department of Homeland Security costs money. We would have a lot more money if the politicians would stop wasting tax payer money on their pet "pork barrel" projects. NO ONE is blameless.

Do you actually believe Dean? Currently, at this moment, Democrats are disagreeing with Dean. Pulling out of Iraq would create problems for us not only abroad, but more importantly HERE ON OUR SHORES. Everyone currently on Capitol Hill agrees with this thinking except Murtha and Dean. Dean is claiming that Iraq is unwinable. Murtha basicly wants to "cut and run". The basic disagreement is HOW to best win the peace. Some have suggested a "timetable", but that would give the "bearded wonders" something plan on. The BEST course of action at this point, IMHO, is to stay the course. The real question is how much time do we want to spend on this. No one from either side has offered any real solutions.

The War of Terror is Global war. We must hit the enemy where they hide to plan their cowardly deeds. This may take many more years, cost more lives, and may cost more money. We didn't cause this, and we didn't create it. They, the jihadist, brought this problem to OUR DOORSTEP. To set "timetables", to take a defeatist attitude, or to "cut and run", to quote Mr. O'Reilly,"is simply riddiculous" and DANGEROUS.

It basicly comes down to this: How much is our safety and freedom worth, what are we willing to pay, and what are we willing to do to secure the blessings of living in freedom? From some of the responses I have seen from some, not much. For them, it's not currently happening here at home so, it's "out of sight, out of mind". However, they forget the the old addage from Benjamin Franklin: "An once of prevention is worth a pound of cure". They also forget that we live in a global community and what happens overseas, whether it has to do with money or fighting a war, CAN effect us here. We need to "nip this problem in the bud" BEFORE it REALLY affects us here. 9/11 is just a small taste of what these jihadist have planned for us IF we don't stand up to these guys.

KF0RT

12-08-2005, 09:34 PM

Quote[/b] (KC2KFC @ Dec. 08 2005,13:54)]Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Dec. 08 2005,10:43)]I've said it before:

Liberal = Tax and spend
Conservative = Don't tax and don't spend
Neo-Con = Don't tax, spend anyway <--- YOU ARE HERE

The current Bush administration has outspent all other administrations, BAR NONE. New records daily!!! The HUGE, EXPENSIVE government is PRECISELY what we have right now.

73, Rob
Amen to that. I am so sick of all the spending this administration has proposed and the congress has approved. Whatever happened the the mantra of smaller government? That is what true conservatism is about.
Absolutely. Bush may be a Republican, but he's a very long way from being a fiscal conservative.

Think of this: Our current Republican administration has outspent every liberal administration in history. Tax and spend liberals? "Don't tax but spend anyway" is worse than anything the liberals ever did financially, and people defend the Bush administration in the name of conservativism? Lotta brainwashed people out there.

Have we become so messed up that we only loook at the labels and not what's really going on?

We're pretty well on our way to our first $1 Trillion defecit year. Remember back on October 21, we hit the $8 Trillion mark. Well, as of 11/6, we were at $8.122 Trillion. That's $122 Billion in 46 days, or a Trillion dollars every 377 days, according to my calculations. Oh, and this isn't what has been spent, it's what has been spent in excess of what was taken in.

Never before in history... not even close... has our government spent so much and had so little to show for it.

73, Rob

kc7jty

12-08-2005, 09:41 PM

Quote[/b] (KC2KFC @ Dec. 07 2005,14:54)]Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Dec. 08 2005,10:43)]I've said it before:

Liberal = Tax and spend
Conservative = Don't tax and don't spend
Neo-Con = Don't tax, spend anyway #<--- YOU ARE HERE

The current Bush administration has outspent all other administrations, BAR NONE. #New records daily!!! #The HUGE, EXPENSIVE government is PRECISELY what we have right now.

73, Rob
Amen to that. I am so sick of all the spending this administration has proposed and the congress has approved. Whatever happened the the mantra of smaller government? That is what true conservatism is about.
If the people of this country were worth their salt they'd slam the till drawer closed on the fingers of those bastardos. They are like bandits breaking open the money box with a crow bar.
#Anything we can get away with baby, and besides if you question us you are UNPATRIOTIC & COWARDS, ever heard that one before?

kc7jty

12-08-2005, 09:50 PM

Quote[/b] ] The BEST course of action at this point, IMHO, is to stay the course. Heah baby...go down with the ship, most approriate.
Quote[/b] ]
The War of Terror is Global war. We must hit the enemy where they hide to plan their cowardly deeds. This may take many more years, cost more lives, and may cost more money. We didn't cause this, and we didn't create it. They, the jihadist, brought this problem to OUR DOORSTEP. To set "timetables", to take a defeatist attitude, or to "cut and run", to quote Mr. O'Reilly,"is simply riddiculous" and DANGEROUS.
I find it absolutely amazing that people actually believe this crap.

Quote[/b] ]It basicly comes down to this: How much is our safety and freedom worth, what are we willing to pay, and what are we willing to do to secure the blessings of living in freedom? From some of the responses I have seen from some, not much. For them, it's not currently happening here at home so, it's "out of sight, out of mind". However, they forget the the old addage from Benjamin Franklin: "An once of prevention is worth a pound of cure". They also forget that we live in a global community and what happens overseas, whether it has to do with money or fighting a war, CAN effect us here. We need to "nip this problem in the bud" BEFORE it REALLY affects us here. 9/11 is just a small taste of what these jihadist have planned for us IF we don't stand up to these guys.
Clearly Osama and his gang are smarter than we. We deserve to loose, yes...stupid people don't deserve freedom.

kg4kww

12-08-2005, 10:01 PM

N9XR Your Picture Of Grand Mullah Bush is in poor taste.

Bush has keep this country free of terror attacks since 9-11 and if Clinto had done his job when he was in office and taken out Osma instead of playing bend over Monica, we wouldn't be having these problems in IRAQ.

kc7jty

12-08-2005, 10:05 PM

Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Dec. 07 2005,15:34)]Have we become so messed up that we only loook at the labels and not what's really going on?
This is a tough one I'm sure for many but, not me. I always smell the latest room deodorizer sensation before I buy.
I currently have the latest high powered model from Febreeze. It toots a different scent every 30 seconds and goes through 264 total different scents before repeating itself. Runs on 2 AA batteries and won't stop even in hurricane Katrina.

kc7jty

12-08-2005, 10:07 PM

Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Dec. 07 2005,16:01)]N9XR Your Picture Of Grand Mullah Bush is in poor taste.
Then you admit it!! He IS a Grand Mullah!!??

KF0RT

12-08-2005, 10:12 PM

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 08 2005,15:05)]Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Dec. 07 2005,15:34)]Have we become so messed up that we only loook at the labels and not what's really going on?
This is a tough one I'm sure for many but, not me. I always smell the latest room deodorizer sensation before I buy.
I currently have the latest high powered model from Febreeze. It toots a different scent every 30 seconds and goes through 264 total different scents before repeating itself. Runs on 2 AA batteries and won't stop even in hurricane Katrina.
How long before the movies have "ScentTrak" <tm>??

73, Rob

kc7jty

12-08-2005, 10:23 PM

This one is a winner:

# # sorry, had to kill it for it had rotating banners one of which contained inapropriate material.
It was the pic of Condaleeza on the Bushspeaks.com line up.

k6bbc

12-08-2005, 10:25 PM

Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Dec. 08 2005,15:01)]N9XR Your Picture Of Grand Mullah Bush is in poor taste.

Bush has keep this country free of terror attacks since 9-11 and if Clinto had done his job when he was in office and taken out Osma instead of playing bend over Monica, we wouldn't be having these problems in IRAQ.
Yes ladies and gentlemen, here it is again, the intellectually inept notion that Bill Clinton is responsible for all America’s ills. And it once again comes back to sex. These Sean Hannity, Rush the Drug Addict groupies are clearly closet pervs as evidence by their obsession with Clinton’s sex life. I wish they would just deal with their own sex problems, as I am sick of hearing about Clinton’s sex life.

K6BBC

nx6d

12-08-2005, 10:25 PM

Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Dec. 08 2005,14:01)]N9XR Your Picture Of Grand Mullah Bush is in poor taste.

Bush has keep this country free of terror attacks since 9-11 and if Clinto had done his job when he was in office and taken out Osma instead of playing bend over Monica, we wouldn't be having these problems in IRAQ.
sniffing the formaldehyde again, Greg?

You can't be serious...

kc7jty

12-08-2005, 10:27 PM

Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Dec. 07 2005,16:12)]How long before the movies have "ScentTrak" <tm>??

73, Rob
that will only be a minor milestone for I tell you if many had their way they would scent the atmosphere of the entire planet. Five thousand foot diameter stacks located all over the world spewing their perfume and making the planet "pleasant & pretty".

kc7jty

12-08-2005, 10:32 PM

That pic of Condoleezy really drives home to me how sick and nausiating this whole crazy thing is. And when anybody even thinks I'm far out in left field all's I can say is thank god you feel that way for this absolute madness that is the USA doesn't fit me one iota..

kc7jty

12-08-2005, 10:35 PM

W...you've got to ask yourself: Who would Jesus bomb?

w5klb

12-08-2005, 10:48 PM

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 08 2005,14:50)]Quote[/b] ] The BEST course of action at this point, IMHO, is to stay the course. Heah baby...go down with the ship, most approriate.
Quote[/b] ]
The War of Terror is Global war. We must hit the enemy where they hide to plan their cowardly deeds. This may take many more years, cost more lives, and may cost more money. We didn't cause this, and we didn't create it. They, the jihadist, brought this problem to OUR DOORSTEP. To set "timetables", to take a defeatist attitude, or to "cut and run", to quote Mr. O'Reilly,"is simply riddiculous" and DANGEROUS.
I find it absolutely amazing that people actually believe this crap.

Quote[/b] ]It basicly comes down to this: How much is our safety and freedom worth, what are we willing to pay, and what are we willing to do to secure the blessings of living in freedom? From some of the responses I have seen from some, not much. For them, it's not currently happening here at home so, it's "out of sight, out of mind". However, they forget the the old addage from Benjamin Franklin: "An once of prevention is worth a pound of cure". They also forget that we live in a global community and what happens overseas, whether it has to do with money or fighting a war, CAN effect us here. We need to "nip this problem in the bud" BEFORE it REALLY affects us here. 9/11 is just a small taste of what these jihadist have planned for us IF we don't stand up to these guys.
Clearly Osama and his gang are smarter than we. We deserve to loose, yes...stupid people don't deserve freedom.
See? God bless your little black heart JTY. Your responses are so predictable. More defeatist attitude.

If you really believe this way, why are you still living here? Would you prefer to join them to defeat the "evil imperalist" that you seem to think our nation is?

Call me a "neo-con", call me a "warmonger", call me anything you wish and you can get by with on this forum. I don't care. I feel, at times, that I'm explaining my position to a flock of ostrichges who only want to "bury their head in the sand" and pretend that we don't have a problem with terror. I also find it rather amazing that there have been attacts from these guys all over the word,(Indonesia, Spain, Great Britton, Pakistand, etc) and yet they claim it's NOT a global war, and causually talk about how much money Bush has spent protecting us "with nothing to show for it". I guess this problem might be attributed to "being blind in one eye and can't see out the other one" . 75% of Osama's "command structure" has been taken out. Terrorist threats have been defeated, and the insurgency in Iraq is decreasing. We are safer, yet the pessimists refuse to look at the facts. But I won't stop them from continuing this "conversation". If find it amazing that none of them has a clear understanding, nor do they want an understanding of geopolitics.

Carry on. I said all I am going to say about the matter.

kc7jty

12-08-2005, 10:58 PM

KLB:
are you absolutely sure that wasn't 74% taken out? How about all the NEW inductees? were they taken into the equation?
Its OK...your side is on the wane and will continue to do so. Those of you who hold out the longest win the bigger booby prize.

KE5FRF

12-08-2005, 11:37 PM

Quote[/b] ]Clearly Osama and his gang are smarter than we. We deserve to loose, yes...stupid people don't deserve freedom.

This is the kind of comment that shows lack of patriotism. Criticism is OK, this isn't.

Quote[/b] ]And when anybody even thinks I'm far out in left field all's I can say is thank god you feel that way for this absolute madness that is the USA doesn't fit me one iota..

There are plenty of modern Canadian citizens who once felt the same way about their American citizenship. Why don't you go join them and sing Koom-bi-ya?

I respect your opinion about our President and the war, because it belongs to you and not me, but putting down our country crosses the line and deligitimizes your points in my view. IMHO

w5klb

12-09-2005, 12:03 AM

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 08 2005,15:58)]KLB:
#are you absolutely sure that wasn't 74% taken out? How about all the NEW inductees? were they taken into the equation?
I said "COMMAND STRUCTURE", you know, the "bearded wonders" who are IN CHARGE. I posted NOTHING about "inducees". Cut of the head of the serpent and the snake will die. Got it? ooops... you'll never get it. Sorry for making that assumption about you.

al2i

12-09-2005, 12:26 AM

Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 08 2005,15:48)]75% of Osama's "command structure" has been taken out. Terrorist threats have been defeated, and the insurgency in Iraq is decreasing. We are safer, yet the pessimists refuse to look at the facts.
I need this sort of "bucking up", as I tend to get a bit wobbly in the knees after being covered in the... the pessimistic goo of BBC and JTY. Thanks klb. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

al2i

12-09-2005, 12:28 AM

I believe that reality is manifest somewhere between the more extreme opinions, and both sides have part of it correct while seeing it from a different perspective. The more extreme perspectives are further from reality and tend to lose sight of it from time to time.

w5klb

12-09-2005, 12:32 AM

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 08 2005,17:26)]Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 08 2005,15:48)]75% of Osama's "command structure" has been taken out. Terrorist threats have been defeated, and the insurgency in Iraq is decreasing. We are safer, yet the pessimists refuse to look at the facts.
I need this sort of "bucking up", as I tend to get a bit wobbly in the knees after being covered in the... the pessimistic goo of BBC and JTY. #Thanks klb. # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
It's not "bucking up". It's the truth. If it wasn't the truth, some here would clammering that Bush lied about that and would call for his "Impeachment". http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

al2i

12-09-2005, 12:39 AM

I just found out yesterday that my dadblasted son-in-law has volunteered for duty where he is the squad leader doing street patrols. Apparently he was bored in his previous assignment or something, and feels he has to put his rear in front of everyone else's rear, which makes me really nervous.

If he doesn't knock it off my whole family is likely to be devastated.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

k6bbc

12-09-2005, 12:57 AM

KF0RT

12-09-2005, 01:43 AM

Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 08 2005,14:33)]Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Dec. 08 2005,10:43)]Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 08 2005,03:33)]In case you haven't, or refused to notice, our unemployment is dropping, and if you're working, you are probably enjoying more take home pay because of all the tax breaks that Bush has put into place. Would you prefer reverting back to what Klinton gave us: The biggest tax increase in the History of The United States? And let's not forget what ol "Chappaquidic" Ted Kennedy wanted to do: Reverse all those tax breaks Bush gave us. Naw, if you want "Tax and Spend", that's something the Demomcrats are REALLY good at doing. It's their "policy" to believe that there is no propblem that cannot be resolved by a suitable application of HUGE, EXPENSIVE goverment interfering with YOUR life, telling you what to do and when to do it. Democrats don't think the average American is smart enough to handle their own affairs, so they want to do it for you in a VERY EXPENSIVE way and you're going to pay... DEARLY.
I've said it before:

Liberal = Tax and spend
Conservative = Don't tax and don't spend
Neo-Con = Don't tax, spend anyway <--- YOU ARE HERE

The current Bush administration has outspent all other administrations, BAR NONE. New records daily!!! The HUGE, EXPENSIVE government is PRECISELY what we have right now.

73, Rob
Rob,

In case you haven't noticed, we are a war. Wars cost money. Safeguarding our nation from terrorist threats cost money. Revamping our Intellegence and organizing the new Department of Homeland Security costs money. We would have a lot more money if the politicians would stop wasting tax payer money on their pet "pork barrel" projects. NO ONE is blameless.
Gary,

No need to patronize me. I'm the one with the facts. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments about the "pork barrel" spending. But alas, I cannot agree with the war or Homeland Security being a significant part of the defecit spending mess.

Here are some facts for you:

In general, our government takes in about $2 Trillion a year, mostly through taxes. Right now, we spend about $3 Trillion a year, the extra Trillion is added to the defecit. When GWB took office on 1/20/01, the national debt was $5,728 Billion. Today, it stands at $8,122 Billion, a difference of $2,394 Billion ($2.4 Trillion). (US Treasury figures.)

So far, the Iraq war has cost us roughly $225 Billion, or about 10% of the increase on the debt. The Department of Homeland Security was started in 2003 and 22 other government agencies were rolled into this department. Before DHS, these 22 agencies had a budget of $22 Billion (2002). Under DHS, this increased to $31 Billion in 2003, $37 Billion in 2004 and $40 Billion in 2005. (White House budget figures.)

The Department of Defense cost us $290 Billion in 2001, $332 Billion in 2002, $389 Billion in 2003, $437 Billion in 2004 and $444 Billion in 2005 (projected). These are also White House budget figures, and you can assume that these include the cost of the war in Iraq as well as our ongoing efforts in Afghanistan.

Our 2005 defense costs are looking to be $484 Billion (DoD + DHS).

Rolling back the clock a bit to those "evil" Clinton years, the DoD budget was $281 Billion in 2000, the last full year Clinton was president. One might assume that the budget for the precursor to DHS was somewhere around $20 Billion. This would be a nightmare to track down with any accuracy, but based on the $22 Billion figure for 2002, $20 Billion passes the test as a reasonable figure.

So, from 2002 until 2005, our total defense spending went from $303 Billion to $484 Billion, an increase of $181 Billion. Keep in mind that this is per year, and not total. And, considering what our military has taken on, the numbers are not unreasonable. The military R&D budget is also up -- this is usually money paid to defense contractors for new technology, and is not directly "consumed" by the military. Not yet, anyway. This too is included in the DoD budget. I'd have to say that the defense budget looks pretty reasonable. Some may not like spending that much, but the numbers line up pretty well. At $484 Billion, all defense spending represents only about 16% of total federal expendatures.

Now, let's take a look at the defecit.

That "evil doer" Clinton took office as president on January 20, 1993. Bush on January 20, 2001. Inauguration Day.

When Clinton took office in 1993, the debt stood at $4,188 Billion. When Bush took over in 2001, it stood at $5,727 Billion. Eight years of the Clinton administration added $1,539 Billion to the debt, or about $192 Billion a year.

GWB has been in office almost 5 years now, and in that time, the debt has increased $2,394 Billion, or $478 Billion per year on average (the actual number will be higher -- he has over a month to go). And as I mentioned previously, we're headed for our first $1,000 Billion year.

What this all boils down to is an increase of defense spending of about $181 Billion per year and an increase of overall spending of about $478 Billion a year. The defense spending is actually starting to level off, while the overall spending is going through the roof.

My point in this exercise is simple. You cannot blame the wildly increasing debt on the war in Iraq or national security. The numbers simply do not justify that conclusion. Taken as a whole, the military spending almost looks like a bargain. When I said we've never spent more and gotten less, I wasn't talking about Iraq.

While the focus (and American attention) is diverted to Iraq, our elected officials are spending like drunken sailors. And while GWB is focused on world affairs, nobody is minding the budget.

Oh, and a bit of trivia. The administration of Bush Sr. racked up almost as much debt in 4 years as the Clinton administration did in 8. The debt when Bush Sr. took office was about $2,700 Billion. "We've come a long way, bay-bee."

"Tax and spend liberals"? Prove it. This may have been true years ago, but it sure doesn't appear to be the case today. Like I say, the hallmark of the NeoCon is to avoid taxation and spend anyway. Spend like a liberal, but don't tax like one. It fools most of the people most of the time.

Lastly, some government research links (for the doubters):

Federal budget history (PDF file) (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2006/pdf/hist.pdf)

Public debt site (interactive) (http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opd.htm)

Very 73, Rob
CenterAisle, CO

al2i

12-09-2005, 03:02 AM

I don't like Junior, but H. "Yeaaaaao" Dean is not the answer.

http://www.davemcgraw.com/Images/hdeanwhiteflag.jpg

k6bbc

12-09-2005, 03:10 AM

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 08 2005,20:02)]I don't like Junior, but H. "Yeaaaaao" Dean is not the answer.

http://www.davemcgraw.com/Images/hdeanwhiteflag.jpg
Dave,

Is Drudge your homepage by chance?

kc7jty

12-09-2005, 05:28 PM

FRF says:
Quote[/b] ]This is the kind of comment that shows lack of patriotism. Criticism is OK, this isn't.
yeah sure...and the founding fathers had a lack of patriotism too. After all they were misinformed politically incorrect idiots.

Quote[/b] ]
There are plenty of modern Canadian citizens who once felt the same way about their American citizenship. Why don't you go join them and sing Koom-bi-ya?
Here we go again, just like I heard a thousand times during the Viet Nam era when I said that war was a mistake: "Get the #*^@ out".

Quote[/b] ]I respect your opinion about our President and the war, because it belongs to you and not me,
no you don't. I can't begin to express my opinion of our leader here.

kc7jty

12-09-2005, 05:43 PM

Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 07 2005,18:03)]Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 08 2005,15:58)]KLB:
#are you absolutely sure that wasn't 74% taken out? How about all the NEW inductees? were they taken into the equation?
I said "COMMAND STRUCTURE", you know, the "bearded wonders" who are IN CHARGE. I posted NOTHING about "inducees". Cut of the head of the serpent and the snake will die. Got it? ooops... you'll never get it. Sorry for making that assumption about you.
OK now I get it, you feel individuals in the "command structure" can never be replaced by anyone including new zealous blooded people.
Only the most naive would believe what you've said about Al Queda or whatever it is dying because the "command" has been destroyed.

k6bbc

12-09-2005, 05:45 PM

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Dec. 08 2005,16:37)]This is the kind of comment that shows lack of patriotism. Criticism is OK, this isn't.
I find this statement rather disturbing. Who is to make the judgment what is acceptable criticism and what is not patriotic and thus “not okay.” This, in my view, is the slippery slope Bush and company is sliding down. This is un-American.

K6BBC

kc7jty

12-09-2005, 05:48 PM

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 07 2005,18:28)]I believe that reality is manifest somewhere between the more extreme opinions, and both sides have part of it correct while seeing it from a different perspective. #The more extreme perspectives are further from reality and tend to lose sight of it from time to time.
Here is one farthest from reality: The people of Viet Nam have been victorious in ousting from their land the corrupt, puppet installing government, colonialist powers that have oppressed them for decades.

kc7jty

12-09-2005, 05:51 PM

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 07 2005,18:39)]I just found out yesterday that my dadblasted son-in-law has volunteered for duty where he is the squad leader doing street patrols. #Apparently he was bored in his previous assignment or something, and feels he has to put his rear in front of everyone else's rear, which makes me really nervous.

If he doesn't knock it off my whole family is likely to be devastated. #
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif # # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif # # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif # # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif # # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Pat Tillman?

kc7jty

12-09-2005, 06:05 PM

The description of neo-con can be likened to the average American going to a chineese restaurant. That person likes the intrigue, sophistication, and class of thinking he has taste and likes exotic world class food, when in reality, if the food he eats wasn't heavily americanized he would turn his nose up at it and say "this isn't Chinese food".

The neo-cons claim to be one thing (conservative, right, responsible, good for the nation, etc) on the surface but in reality are all the same old self serving, crooked BS.

kg4kww

12-09-2005, 10:13 PM

Yep, if clinton had done his job, Osma would be out of the Pic and Bush could deal with Iran and NK.

But, clinton didn't, so Bush has had to step up to the plate and swing the bat.

Bush, has stood up to these sicko's and showed them he's in command.

And 7JTY, don't knock my girl Condi, she's cute, smart and knows how to handle these tough guy leaders.

Go Condi go. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

al2i

12-09-2005, 10:23 PM

Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Dec. 09 2005,15:13)]Go Condi go. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Condi seems like a screw-up to me, but what do I know: I voted for Junior, and he doesn't just seem like a screw-up, he is a screw-up.

k6bbc

12-09-2005, 10:30 PM

Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Dec. 09 2005,15:13)]Yep, if clinton had done his job, Osma would be out of the Pic and Bush could deal with Iran and NK.

But, clinton didn't, so Bush has had to step up to the plate and swing the bat.

Bush, has stood up to these sicko's and showed them he's in command.

And 7JTY, don't knock my girl Condi, she's cute, smart and knows how to handle these tough guy leaders.

Go Condi go. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
KWW - IRAQ HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 911. CAN'T YOU GET IT!?

bbc

al2i

12-09-2005, 10:37 PM

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Dec. 08 2005,20:10)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 08 2005,20:02)]I don't like Junior, but H. "Yeaaaaao" Dean is not the answer.

http://www.davemcgraw.com/Images/hdeanwhiteflag.jpg
Dave,

Is Drudge your homepage by chance?
No. The Anchorage Daily News (http://www.adn.com) is my homepage, but if you must know, I crop jobbed that pic off of Drudge.

KG4ZQZ

12-09-2005, 10:52 PM

howard dean? why would anyone believe someone who would do this:

http://www.tux.org/~bball/dude/dean_squeezing_cat.jpeg

k6bbc

12-09-2005, 10:56 PM

Quote[/b] (KG4ZQZ @ Dec. 09 2005,15:52)]howard dean? why would anyone believe someone who would do this:

http://www.tux.org/~bball/dude/dean_squeezing_cat.jpeg
Yeah, but he was dead right on Iraq.

bbc

al2i

12-09-2005, 11:02 PM

Quote[/b] (KG4ZQZ @ Dec. 09 2005,15:52)]howard dean? why would anyone believe someone who would do this:

http://www.tux.org/~bball/dude/dean_squeezing_cat.jpeg
Sweet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh... is that a kitten. I guess I wanted it to be a dashchund so much that I actually seemed to be looking at a dachshund. Never mind.

w5klb

12-10-2005, 01:16 AM

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 08 2005,03:47)]Gary,

Bush has spent, spent, spent, spent, and spent. #The federal deficit is growing astronomically. #The trade deficit has already take more from our country than you realize. We are in a quagmire of a war begotton of hubris as our more capable enemies sharpen their tools. #Real hourly wages continue their multi-decade decline despite explosive growth in technology.

Yet you seem mostly interested in partisan defence of one set of politicians. #Where is the logic?
Yep, he shouldn't of spent money on creating The Department of Homland Security for our safety. Damn him, he could just saved the taxpayers money and waited for a BIGGER attack. And that Katrina situation in New Orleans, he should let those people fend for themselves. Same goes for those "people" who survived Rita. Shame, shame, shame, on Bush. And eventhough Bush isn't responsible for starting that "Avian Flu" Pandemic overseas, he going to cause it to come here. We'll be sick and dying by the thousands because he's an REPUBLICAN President and a "neo con". We can use "The Downing Street Memos" as "evidence" of his "lying" for his "Impeachment" proceedings, which should start #immediatly! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

This is basic "jest" of what I have been seeing from you guys.

Here my logic:

A lot of that spending Bush has done was needed. No dollar figure can be placed on my welfare, safety and freedom. To me, they are PRICELESS. There is no other nation that has the freedoms that we enjoy, here. This is why so many people are flocking to our shores, and why so many will do ANYTHING, including entering our country illegally, to get here. The terrorist are also here. They are currently planning their next attack. Will your town be next? Hard to say. The only thing we can do is SPEND the money to be prepared. Money is NOTHING. Human lives and our freedom is worth far more than #mere money. That isn't "partisan politics", it's common sense.

How much is your way of life and freedom worth to you?

w5klb

12-10-2005, 01:19 AM

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Dec. 09 2005,15:56)]Quote[/b] (KG4ZQZ @ Dec. 09 2005,15:52)]howard dean? why would anyone believe someone who would do this:

http://www.tux.org/~bball/dude/dean_squeezing_cat.jpeg
Yeah, but he was dead right on Iraq.

bbc
uh huh... The REAL trick is to get the REST of the Democratic Party to AGREE with him. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

KF0RT

12-10-2005, 04:51 AM

Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 09 2005,18:16)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 08 2005,03:47)]Gary,

Bush has spent, spent, spent, spent, and spent. The federal deficit is growing astronomically. The trade deficit has already take more from our country than you realize. We are in a quagmire of a war begotton of hubris as our more capable enemies sharpen their tools. Real hourly wages continue their multi-decade decline despite explosive growth in technology.

Yet you seem mostly interested in partisan defence of one set of politicians. Where is the logic?
Yep, he shouldn't of spent money on creating The Department of Homland Security for our safety. Damn him, he could just saved the taxpayers money and waited for a BIGGER attack. And that Katrina situation in New Orleans, he should let those people fend for themselves. Same goes for those "people" who survived Rita. Shame, shame, shame, on Bush. And eventhough Bush isn't responsible for starting that "Avian Flu" Pandemic overseas, he going to cause it to come here. We'll be sick and dying by the thousands because he's an REPUBLICAN President and a "neo con". We can use "The Downing Street Memos" as "evidence" of his "lying" for his "Impeachment" proceedings, which should start immediatly! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

This is basic "jest" of what I have been seeing from you guys.

Here my logic:

A lot of that spending Bush has done was needed. No dollar figure can be placed on my welfare, safety and freedom. To me, they are PRICELESS. There is no other nation that has the freedoms that we enjoy, here. This is why so many people are flocking to our shores, and why so many will do ANYTHING, including entering our country illegally, to get here. The terrorist are also here. They are currently planning their next attack. Will your town be next? Hard to say. The only thing we can do is SPEND the money to be prepared. Money is NOTHING. Human lives and our freedom is worth far more than mere money. That isn't "partisan politics", it's common sense.

How much is your way of life and freedom worth to you?
Geez, Gary. Back on page 7 of this thread, I PROVED to you that the spending wasn't about Iraq or Homeland Security. And here you go again saying it is.

Tell ya what... Re-read what I wrote, and then back up your claim that the runaway spending of our government is due to national security. You can't because it isn't.

Even if I believed your "common sense" of lives being priceless, you are debating based on the flawed premise that the huge increase in the debt is primarily due to defense and homeland security spending. THIS IS NOT TRUE. I don't know how I can make it any more clear than that.

73, Rob

k6bbc

12-10-2005, 04:57 AM

Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Dec. 09 2005,21:51)]Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Dec. 09 2005,18:16)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 08 2005,03:47)]Gary,

Bush has spent, spent, spent, spent, and spent. #The federal deficit is growing astronomically. #The trade deficit has already take more from our country than you realize. We are in a quagmire of a war begotton of hubris as our more capable enemies sharpen their tools. #Real hourly wages continue their multi-decade decline despite explosive growth in technology.

Yet you seem mostly interested in partisan defence of one set of politicians. #Where is the logic?
Yep, he shouldn't of spent money on creating The Department of Homland Security for our safety. Damn him, he could just saved the taxpayers money and waited for a BIGGER attack. And that Katrina situation in New Orleans, he should let those people fend for themselves. Same goes for those "people" who survived Rita. Shame, shame, shame, on Bush. And eventhough Bush isn't responsible for starting that "Avian Flu" Pandemic overseas, he going to cause it to come here. We'll be sick and dying by the thousands because he's an REPUBLICAN President and a "neo con". We can use "The Downing Street Memos" as "evidence" of his "lying" for his "Impeachment" proceedings, which should start #immediatly! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

This is basic "jest" of what I have been seeing from you guys.

Here my logic:

A lot of that spending Bush has done was needed. No dollar figure can be placed on my welfare, safety and freedom. To me, they are PRICELESS. There is no other nation that has the freedoms that we enjoy, here. This is why so many people are flocking to our shores, and why so many will do ANYTHING, including entering our country illegally, to get here. The terrorist are also here. They are currently planning their next attack. Will your town be next? Hard to say. The only thing we can do is SPEND the money to be prepared. Money is NOTHING. Human lives and our freedom is worth far more than #mere money. That isn't "partisan politics", it's common sense.

How much is your way of life and freedom worth to you?
Geez, Gary. # Back on page 7 of this thread, I PROVED to you that the spending wasn't about Iraq or Homeland Security. #And here you go again saying it is.

Tell ya what... #Re-read what I wrote, and then back up your claim that the runaway spending of our government is due to national security. #You can't because it isn't.

Even if I believed your "common sense" of lives being priceless, you are debating based on the flawed premise that the huge increase in the debt is primarily due to defense and homeland security spending. #THIS IS NOT TRUE. #I don't know how I can make it any more clear than that.

73, Rob
IT'S PORK!

KE5FRF

12-10-2005, 05:04 AM

I wonder, as a so called "neo-con", statistically speaking, I wonder what the political bias is in the amateur radio community. I pose that question, knowing that there isn't scientific data, but there are a lot of older hams participating in this forum, who might shed some light on that. In other words, Unions are liberal organizations, and usually cater to the democrats. The NRA is a conservative organization, and usually caters to the republicans. What party does the ARRL generally tend to align itself with? I know that most hams are middle class, white, males (i mention race only to emphasize a possible source of bias)...so does the weight of that segment tend to lend itself to the conservative side? I truly pose this question out of curiosity, because I have noticed a lot of Commy Pinko Peacenik lefties here on QRZ.

KF0RT

12-10-2005, 05:18 AM

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Dec. 09 2005,22:04)]I wonder, as a so called "neo-con", statistically speaking, I wonder what the political bias is in the amateur radio community. I pose that question, knowing that there isn't scientific data, but there are a lot of older hams participating in this forum, who might shed some light on that. In other words, Unions are liberal organizations, and usually cater to the democrats. The NRA is a conservative organization, and usually caters to the republicans. What party does the ARRL generally tend to align itself with? I know that most hams are middle class, white, males (i mention race only to emphasize a possible source of bias)...so does the weight of that segment tend to lend itself to the conservative side? I truly pose this question out of curiosity, because I have noticed a lot of Commy Pinko Peacenik lefties here on QRZ.
Back when there were polls here on QRZ, this came up more than once. The poll results were overwhelmingly conservative, but I don't think Neo-Con was ever one of the choices. Very few Neo-Cons think of themselves that way, you see.

One must be careful with the labels, though. It's quite possible that many of your "Commy Pinko Peacenik lefties" are true conservatives (who know how to spell "commie").

73, Rob
SpellCop, CO

KF0RT

12-10-2005, 05:20 AM

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Dec. 09 2005,21:57)]IT'S PORK!
Doh! I KNEW I was leaving something out! Thanks, Tony.

73, Rob

KE5FRF

12-10-2005, 05:34 AM

Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Dec. 10 2005,00:18)]Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Dec. 09 2005,22:04)]I wonder, as a so called "neo-con", statistically speaking, I wonder what the political bias is in the amateur radio community. I pose that question, knowing that there isn't scientific data, but there are a lot of older hams participating in this forum, who might shed some light on that. In other words, Unions are liberal organizations, and usually cater to the democrats. The NRA is a conservative organization, and usually caters to the republicans. What party does the ARRL generally tend to align itself with? I know that most hams are middle class, white, males (i mention race only to emphasize a possible source of bias)...so does the weight of that segment tend to lend itself to the conservative side? I truly pose this question out of curiosity, because I have noticed a lot of Commy Pinko Peacenik lefties here on QRZ.
Back when there were polls here on QRZ, this came up more than once. #The poll results were overwhelmingly conservative, but I don't think Neo-Con was ever one of the choices. #Very few Neo-Cons think of themselves that way, you see.

One must be careful with the labels, though. #It's quite possible that many of your "Commy Pinko Peacenik lefties" are true conservatives (who know how to spell "commie").

73, Rob
SpellCop, CO
LOL...

I looked it up in the dictionary, commy nor commie where there, only communist. I am sure I mispelled it compared to the commonly agreed upon spelling. And I was being fascicious (sp) calling my self a so called neo-con.

KF0RT

12-10-2005, 05:40 AM

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Dec. 09 2005,22:34)]Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Dec. 10 2005,00:18)]Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Dec. 09 2005,22:04)]I wonder, as a so called "neo-con", statistically speaking, I wonder what the political bias is in the amateur radio community. I pose that question, knowing that there isn't scientific data, but there are a lot of older hams participating in this forum, who might shed some light on that. In other words, Unions are liberal organizations, and usually cater to the democrats. The NRA is a conservative organization, and usually caters to the republicans. What party does the ARRL generally tend to align itself with? I know that most hams are middle class, white, males (i mention race only to emphasize a possible source of bias)...so does the weight of that segment tend to lend itself to the conservative side? I truly pose this question out of curiosity, because I have noticed a lot of Commy Pinko Peacenik lefties here on QRZ.
Back when there were polls here on QRZ, this came up more than once. The poll results were overwhelmingly conservative, but I don't think Neo-Con was ever one of the choices. Very few Neo-Cons think of themselves that way, you see.

One must be careful with the labels, though. It's quite possible that many of your "Commy Pinko Peacenik lefties" are true conservatives (who know how to spell "commie").

73, Rob
SpellCop, CO
LOL...

I looked it up in the dictionary, commy nor commie where there, only communist. I am sure I mispelled it compared to the commonly agreed upon spelling. And I was being fascicious (sp) calling my self a so called neo-con.
As long as you can keep your sense of humor! This skill alone will keep you from busting a vein in threads such as this one.

(See, I'm smiling. Really!)

73, Rob