Two Amateur Radio Groups become one.

[kc8ycz]

Before you read on remember that this was not to start a bashing session about code/no code or NCT/Advanced/Extra classes. This is to INFORM PEOPLE that emegency help is out there and if you need it use it at will. Please Try to stay on topic as it was said before, INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY!!!


Amateur Radio International Communications Coalition (http://www.aricc.org) (ARICC) and
The Missing Lynk Global Repeater System, (http://www.missinglynk.us)(MISSLYNK, EchoLink Conference) have formed a strategic communications alliance.
ARICC provides Health and Welfare communications in time of Disaster on EchoLink and various RF systems and is a recognized international communications group. The Missing Lynk Global Repeater System has grown internationally with their conference server reaching HAMS world wide with their links and weekly nets.
The groups both utilize the K1RFD EchoLink System and RF, encompassing not only HF but repeaters all over the world. In association with these groups also is N1TAI's HF link which is only active when there is an emergency call up or an activation of ARICC in concert with other RF, EchoLink, VOiP systems, Federal, Local and EMCOMM activations. The alliance has increased the reach of Amateur Operations for ARICC by adding more repeaters and conferences world wide therefore adding more expansive coverage of message handling for all the emergency net services.
The Missing Lynk Global Repeater System and its users along with ARICC and its members provide a much needed segment to the Amateur Radio Emergency Communications arena. If you need more information on either of these groups you can check out their websites.


P.S. This is not meant to be a heated argument, just to inform folks that if they have an Emergency they can count on The ARICC and The Missing Lynk System!

[nf0a]

Sounds peachy to me. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[N0FPE]

WOO HOO!!! Let just trash all of our radios and use the internet!!!! That way when the power is out, the phones are gone, the cable system is trashed we can sit on our hands and be of no use!!! While I could care less if you want to talk to someone via the internet, what the heck good are you when the internet is not working?? EMCOMM?? HA!!! Why is it that a lot of folks seem to think linking all this stuff and relying on the internet is so wonderful?? One good tornado/hurricane/explosion and it all goes away for day/weeks/months!!!
Personally I will keep working on improving my HF/VHF/UHF RADIOS at home and mobile as well as my jump kit for real emergenancies.

IMHO of course YMMV

Dan/NØFPE

[KD5YBE]

Quote[/b] (N0FPE @ Dec. 04 2005,18:49)]WOO HOO!!! #Let just trash all of our radios and use the internet!!!! That way when the power is out, the phones are gone, the cable system is trashed we can sit on our hands and be of no use!!! While I could care less if you want to talk to someone via the internet, what the heck good are you when the internet is not working?? EMCOMM?? #HA!!! Why is it that a lot of folks seem to think linking all this stuff and relying on the internet is so wonderful?? One good tornado/hurricane/explosion and it all goes away for day/weeks/months!!!
Personally I will keep working on improving my HF/VHF/UHF RADIOS at home and mobile as well as my jump kit for real emergenancies.

IMHO of course #YMMV

Dan/NØFPE
Oh no Dont take away my HF radio!!!
Lets be afraid of that bad thing called change. This person thinks we are taking away one thing to add another. I thought we were trying to add to ham radio not take away from it.
As far as emergency communications go, I think all the recources we can get is good. During Hurricane Katrina, I had several people connect to the echolink station here to get a relay to relatives. Lets not push away recources that can be helpful. If we have everything at hand(HF,VHF,UHF,echolink,APRS) we can be better prepared in an emergency.

[n6ajr]

I use internet for qrz and eham, I use the radio to talk to people. I don't use the radio to talk to people over the internet.

I had a friend who was excited to work a new on for him, england, and I ask what band and he says 2m irlp. I said hmmmm so you talk to a local repeater and it sends this over the internet, and come out on a 2 m repeater in england and he talks on a 2 m radio.

YUP, thats how it works, says he, I say don't seem like dx to me.. 160 m over the air on ssb from calif to jamica, now that is a new one for me..

I guess it can get folks excited about ham radio, but it don't work when the power goes out, that is why I have batteries, inverters, solar, and such. radio waves only for me.

[KI6BPT]

Hello:

Very interesting article.

Regards,
KI6BPT http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[XV2PS]

missing link, it says it all http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[KC9HZJ]

I have to say I agree that during times of disaster, utilizing all means of communication is important. I am proud to be a part of the Missing Lynk system, and if that peeves any "old timers" then I am NOT sorry.

You know, ham radio is all about pushing forward. Amateur Radio has always been a testing ground for new technology. There was a time when packet "wasn't ham radio". Look how far that's come. No one is advocating removing HF radios from the old, dry hands of those who dislike Echolink. Heck, I just bought an HF rig that I plan to use all the time when I pass my General & CW exams this month. There is a place for all technologies in Ham Radio. I quite enjoy the contacts I make on Echolink. What band is it where you are guaranteed a 5/9 signal with any station you choose to communicate with? Thought so... can't think of one can you!

Anyway, I'm not trying to cause more dissention amongst the ranks of the amateur radio operators in the world. I am only writing to perhaps open the eyes of those who haven't turned their noses away from new technology. You can't move forward when you're sitting still, my friends.

Just my two cents worth. When I started in Ham Radio, I was told that I was getting involved in a progressive hobby full of friendly folks willing to help out. I'm sorry that I was mistaken.

73,
KC9HZJ

[N8NOE]

I fear any organization that would have ME as a Member! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[k5okc]

The website is under construction so please bare with us.

I try to bare myself often, but the police frown on it.

P.S. I hate animated GIF's and low resolution graphics.

Steve
"This beer is mine"

[k5okc]

Quote[/b] (ai4cb @ Dec. 05 2005,00:20)]Nothing wrong with Echolink per se, if that's what you're into. It's this mantra that's it a panacea for "emergency communications" that is nonsense. It's entertainment, that's all.
entertainment

n : a diversion that holds the attention [syn: amusement]

---------

Hey, you might have something there...

[NY7Q]

CHANGE IS ALWAYS GOOD. But, this is clearly internet operations and has no place in ham radio. radio is radio, internet is....well,,,you know, a real bag of worms for radios. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[kc8ycz]

So what most people think is that internet will go down all over the world at the same time. The only way that will happen is if the entire world blows up. I know things can happen but the entire world gone? I won't say it's not going to happen because you never know but it's not going to happen anytime soon. My YL took her test Yesterday, Dec 4, and is excited about ham radio in general. Both the RF side and the internet side. Don't get me wrong there is nothing like making a contact in New York on the K2XZ repeater or even simplex on the 2 meter band when the conditions are right, I have done this even got a couple of cards for it but internet took ham radio away with email and messengers so why not utilize the internet to bring it back. I know it's all in choice and everyone has that right to choose what they want or believe in but if it helps in anyway then I am for it. That's all I have to say and hopefully some nice folks out there will think twice.

[n9lya]

Quote[/b] (ai4cb @ Dec. 04 2005,23:58)]Quote[/b] (KC9HZJ @ Dec. 05 2005,01:29)]
Quote[/b] ]I have to say I agree that during times of disaster, utilizing all means of communication is important.

That's fine, but think realistically about what "disaster" entails. Infrastructure including internet is down for some period of time. No internet, no echolink. #On the other hand, if the internet is working, then I don't need echolink, I can just send email or log onto the Salvation Army or Red Cross website and post my H&W inquiry.

What people may NOT be able to do is call 911 in their own town because the phones and radios are down. I am not at all clear on how linking to an echolink node in Sao Tome is going to be useful in that situation.

Quote[/b] ]I am proud to be a part of the Missing Lynk system, and if that peeves any "old timers" then I am NOT sorry.

I'm not an "old timer", and it peeves me.

Quote[/b] ]You know, ham radio is all about pushing forward. Amateur Radio has always been a testing ground for new technology.

Repeaters have been around for 30 years. Internet has been around 20 years. So where's the "new technology" ?

Quote[/b] ]I quite enjoy the contacts I make on Echolink. What band is it where you are guaranteed a 5/9 signal with any station you choose to communicate with? Thought so... can't think of one can you!

What will you do in the disaster when the internet infrastructure is down, echolink isn't there, and all those wonderful 5-9 signals aren't there anymore? Do you have backup procedures for that case?

Quote[/b] ]Anyway, I'm not trying to cause more dissention amongst the ranks of the amateur radio operators in the world.

That's exactly what you're doing when you use language like Quote[/b] ]I am only writing to perhaps open the eyes of those who haven't turned their noses away from new technology. You can't move forward when you're sitting still, my friends. .... I was told that I was getting involved in a progressive hobby full of friendly folks willing to help out. I'm sorry that I was mistaken.

You want to see REAL cause of dissention, how about this: #So basically what we have here is yet another spurious cliche of wet behind the ears NCT computer jockeys who think they can save the world with internet web sites. But it's OK. It's just a phase we all go through. You'll get over it.

What I don't understand why the QRZ.com sysops keep falling for these Hamsexy troll incursions.
Actually the internet has been around since the August 1962 the same year I was born... I am 43+yrs

[n9lya]

Quote[/b] (kc8ycz @ Dec. 05 2005,02:56)]So what most people think is that internet will go down all over the world at the same time. #The only way that will happen is if the entire world blows up. #I know things can happen but the entire world gone? #I won't say it's not going to happen because you never know but it's not going to happen anytime soon. #My YL took her test Yesterday, Dec 4, and is excited about ham radio in general. #Both the RF side and the internet side. #Don't get me wrong there is nothing like making a contact in New York on the K2XZ repeater or even simplex on the 2 meter band when the conditions are right, I have done this even got a couple of cards for it but internet took ham radio away with email and messengers so why not utilize the internet to bring it back. #I know it's all in choice and everyone has that right to choose what they want or believe in but if it helps in anyway then I am for it. #That's all I have to say and hopefully some nice folks out there will think twice.
There is really nothing like talking to a Ham in the UK from your car on 20 meters HF... While sitting in a parking lot waiting on the wife to do christmas shopping...

Believe me...

73 jerry n9lya

Try HF sometime... You will be glad you did... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[VA3AWP]

Quote[/b] ]There is really nothing like talking to a Ham in the UK from your car on 20 meters HF... While sitting in a parking lot waiting on the wife to do christmas shopping...


Thats great when band conditions are in. Here in Toronto 20 meters has been dead for quite some time.

I like the fact that with Echolink or IRLP I can drive around in my car with my 706, or have my handheld in my backyard running at 1 watt, and dial up repeaters all over the world using my own antenna system, a computer, an old VHF/UHF radio and my RigBlaster.

In the summer it's nice to be able to sit in the yard with a handheld and have a 'rag-chew' with with a chap in Australia, while getting a nice sun tan. I would love to have IRLP here too, but I can't justify forking money over for a piece of propietary hardware that could be homebrewed or done with an already existing RigBlaster interface.

I do agree that when using Echolink it should be done in a portable fashion, as described above, rather than just sending packets across a wire without having to transmit a single watt, thus undermining the frequency spectrum that we are trying hard to hold onto.

73
VA3AWP

[kb2vxa]

Hi plodders,

Yup, the missing link is radio, we don't need it anymore. Oh, some still do unfortunately, since we fabulously rich yachties cruising the world can't tap submarine cables (but we're working on it) so we have to rely on WL2K to pick up our e-mail. Now would you outmoded dinosaurs please stop jamming our ISPs with your pointless Amateur Radio brass pounding or whatever you call that beeping noise that should have gone down with the Titanic?

[n0zu]

Quote[/b] (N0FPE @ Dec. 04 2005,18:49)]WOO HOO!!! #Let just trash all of our radios and use the internet!!!!

Dan/NØFPE

It would be cheaper that way.

and is all digital.

they make battrey back up for coumputers
works just like back up power on hf.

heck they even make portable coumputers to
so that could be an ht.

[k5co]

I have no desire to talk over the internet; if it's on the internet, then it is a phone call. But, when we have an emergency, we should be prepared to use anything we can. So, I'll probably learn how to use the Echolink system fairly soon.

Oldtimer, Kd5PSH

[kc8ycz]

Quote[/b] (KD5PSH @ Dec. 05 2005,12:29)]I have no desire to talk over the internet; if it's on the internet, then it is a phone call. But, when we have an emergency, we should be prepared to use anything we can. So, I'll probably learn how to use the Echolink system fairly soon.

Oldtimer, Kd5PSH
And thats what the ARICC and The Missing Lynk System is trying to do. Provide emergency communicatios when needed. Regardless if you like using radio or not over internet everyone should atleast learn to use Echolink for emergencies. You never now you made need it to save the life of one of your family members.

[na4it]

Well, I'll get flamed for posting this in the manner I am, but that's the only way I know how to do it, so here goes.

When I try to tell people about Christ, I don't tell them what he can do for them. I tell them what He has done for me.

In emergency communcations utilizing Echolink, I'm not going to tell you what it "can" do, I am going to tell what it "DID" do.

I had a gentleman here locally thet was seeking info on his sister in the Gulf area. I checked in on HF to see what I could do. A ham told me there was a tech class ham that had his Echolink connection up in the exact area I needed. I cranked up Echolink on the computer, hooked up to him, gave him a short message and telephone numbers for the sister and the return number. He said he would try, and we agreed he could contact me through out local Echolink repeater.

Next moring, I got a call on the repeater, and it was the ham in the Gulf via Echolink. He had the sister on the phone, and I called her brother here locally, and we did a "redneck phone patch" to let them know everything was OK.

That's not what Echolink "can" do, it is what it DID!

And do I think we need to toss radio out...NO! Without it, I would not have known about the Echolink connection. Not only that, I handled several pieces of traffic via HF.

If it works, use it. You don't have to like it.

[kc8ycz]

Quote[/b] (na4it @ Dec. 05 2005,13:37)]Well, I'll get flamed for posting this in the manner I am, but that's the only way I know how to do it, so here goes.

When I try to tell people about Christ, I don't tell them what he can do for them. I tell them what He has done for me.

In emergency communcations utilizing Echolink, I'm not going to tell you what it "can" do, I am going to tell what it "DID" do.

I had a gentleman here locally thet was seeking info on his sister in the Gulf area. I checked in on HF to see what I could do. A ham told me there was a tech class ham that had his Echolink connection up in the exact area I needed. I cranked up Echolink on the computer, hooked up to him, gave him a short message and telephone numbers for the sister and the return number. He said he would try, and we agreed he could contact me through out local Echolink repeater.

Next moring, I got a call on the repeater, and it was the ham in the Gulf via Echolink. He had the sister on the phone, and I called her brother here locally, and we did a "redneck phone patch" to let them know everything was OK.

That's not what Echolink "can" do, it is what it DID!

And do I think we need to toss radio out...NO! Without it, I would not have known about the Echolink connection. Not only that, I handled several pieces of traffic via HF.

If it works, use it. You don't have to like it.
I mean this in the depest respect to you.....
AMEN! That is what The ARICC and The Missing Lynk System is trying to prove, that it can, WILL and DOES help in anyway that we can.

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] (na4it @ Dec. 05 2005,12:37)]Well, I'll get flamed for posting this in the manner I am, but that's the only way I know how to do it, so here goes.

When I try to tell people about Christ, I don't tell them what he can do for them. I tell them what He has done for me.

In emergency communcations utilizing Echolink, I'm not going to tell you what it "can" do, I am going to tell what it "DID" do.

I had a gentleman here locally thet was seeking info on his sister in the Gulf area. I checked in on HF to see what I could do. A ham told me there was a tech class ham that had his Echolink connection up in the exact area I needed. I cranked up Echolink on the computer, hooked up to him, gave him a short message and telephone numbers for the sister and the return number. He said he would try, and we agreed he could contact me through out local Echolink repeater.

Next moring, I got a call on the repeater, and it was the ham in the Gulf via Echolink. He had the sister on the phone, and I called her brother here locally, and we did a "redneck phone patch" to let them know everything was OK.

That's not what Echolink "can" do, it is what it DID!

And do I think we need to toss radio out...NO! Without it, I would not have known about the Echolink connection. Not only that, I handled several pieces of traffic via HF.

If it works, use it. You don't have to like it.
Thank you, na4it, Extra Class Ham...

You are a true class act operator, coming forth with your testimony with facts and truth, not just hysteria and hype and opinions. After all Opinions are like, well you know, the things everyone has in their posterior region.

I have been involved in debates about EchoLink before, and quite frankly, I will not participate in a debate here. I just wanted to applaud you for coming forth with your facts. "The proof is in the puddin'". I say long live Amateur Radio, HF, CW, chrystal receivers, short wave, and all modes and types of operation, including new modes such as EchoLink. The people who would attack you, me, or any other ham for using EchoLink are only reacting in fear. They are like an old, dying, wounded animal backed into a corner, thrashing and lashing at the thing they think is a threat. They percieve that the end is coming for them. It all ties in with the code/no code debate, because they believe there is a conspiracy to end Morse Code, and EchoLink and other digital modes are part of that conspiracy. I for one know of no-one who wants to get rid of Morse Code, or HF. Most operators I know just want to communicate, be it with 2 tin cans and a string or with some futuristic method of tommorrow.

So again, i applaud you for being honest with your comments, despite the attempts that are sure to come to discredit you for making that post. Amateur Radio will survive this, and it will be better in the end. These comments come from a NO CODE TECH, who enjoys tinkering with electronics and repairing things that would otherwise be thrown away. I enjoy technology, and all the things the world of today and tommorrow has to offer. And finally, I enjoy things of antiquity, old books, old games, old radios, old toys, and old furniture. It is a well rounded life I try to lead, and If someone has criticism for me, believe you me, I have been through too much in my time on this Earth and seen too many things to let anyones opinion of me bother me in the slightest.

My advice to all who participate in this hobby of ours is to do the things you enjoy, take pleasure from and gain knowledge from whatever you like doing, because our time on Earth is short, and not long enough to listen to the criticism of fools.

[n9lya]

Lets see...

Amateur Radio = HAMs only RF
Amateur Internet = Anyone Telephone.

Now that we have that squared away.. lets look at the next item.

Internet linking vs radio linking

Internet linking two repeaters together... Telephone


Radio linking two repeaters ... Radio..

I do not get the confusion.. One is Ham Radio one is not...



You can quote the FCC all day... You can tell me the Internet is bulletproof, will never fail, will always be there... #but where is the adventure in talking to some other part of the world over a telephone... #I do not get it.... It you tell me you cannot aford a radio.. #Fine... I can show you how to setup HF .. A complete station for less then the cost of a computer and internet access...

Lets see..

TS520 $150
Coax say 100 feet RG8M $17
Inverted V $25

Lets see throw in enough to pay shipping and we can round this at a whopping $200... $220 at most....

Can be installed in an afternoon.

No access fees... No other requirements other then a desire to have HF access.. Not going into the code nocode thingy...

I used to be a member of NCI... Until I realized my fear was what was preventing me from passing the code test...

After less then two weeks of code test tapes and study for general .. I Passed... Easy enough..

Boy was I happy I got over the Fear...


See ya one HF.. I hang out on SSb and Digital...

look me up or PM me here to schedule a QSO or for help getting past the Code fear...


Anyway... Do what you like best... Do it and have fun...




73 Jerry N9LYA


http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[KC9HZJ]

Well, does appear that some debate has occured here. I do take offense to the "NCT Computer Jockey" comment that was posted regarding my previous comment.

Allow me to offer a little history about my life in Amateur Radio:

I was licensed in August of 2005. Yep, 4 months ago. I am taking the CW and General Class exams this month. Guess what? In a couple of weeks, I will no longer be a "NCT Computer Jockey". I pray that those who trash me will be contesting on HF needing a contact in Indiana while I am listening.

Anyway, back to the point: Emergency Communication. Little story here...
During the beginning of November here in SW Indiana, we had an F3 Tornado rip a 42 mile path through my beautiful town. It came within 1000ft of my house. Needless to say, the internet was the least of my worries. We were lucky, only without power for 3 days. But guess what? Even with my cell phone, home phone, and electric not working, I was able to be connected to the internet through Verizon's Wireless Broadband. I set up my Echolink node on emergency power as a repeater for emergency use, but had I the knowledge I have now, I would have kept it connected to Echolink as well. All other communication was down in our county. No Police, Sheriff, EMS, Fire, etc. I worked my butt off for a week helping with communications in this area. It disturbs me to no end, and I pray that some of my fellow amateur operators would help out if the emergency call came from a repeater connected to Echolink. Shame on you if you don't! Dozens of people died within a 20 mile radius of my house, and if your personal opinions about VoIP are going to keep you from utilizing another form of Emergency Communications to possibly save a life, then again I say, "Shame, Shame, on you!"

Sorry to ramble on, but the amount of death and destruction I saw on that night is going to haunt me forever. I am proud to have helped. I'm glad I did it. From now on, the 40+ mile radius I have on my Echolink node will always be available for emergency use. Again, I am not advocating the replacement of HF. HF is one of the most (if not THE most) valuable assets we have. I am just hoping to supplement it with something that EVERY licensed ham can use. Please, no more NCT bashing. There are worthless hams throughout the license classes, and there is no need to turn this into a bashing session. We're talking about saving lives and passing traffic here.

73,
KC9HZJ

[kc8ycz]

From one "NCT Computer Jockey" to another. Thanks for the proof. I myself will always be there for emergencies no matter if its in my state or in another country.

[KE5FRF]

I don't have quite as dramatic a story to tell, but I live in the affected area of Hurricane Katrina, and I was able to get my EchoLink up shortly after the storm had passed. I did not personally pass any traffic, but I did participate in an ARRIC net, and my neighborhood knows I am a ham. I told them I was prepared to pass traffic or make inquiries for them if need be. Fortunately, no neighbors or friends needed my assistance, but, IT WAS THERE if need be. BTW, my father-in-law has a generator and internet via satellite. He was also in the affected area and capable of passing traffic if need be. This world of technology we live in isn't quite as clear as black and white, there is a lot of grey area, and that is where the world we live in lies. True, HF is far superior to any other means of propogation, but lets not "throw out the baby with the bathwater." This is just my testimony, which is all truth, facts, and indisputable. No debate, just my little peice of the puzzle.

[KC9HZJ]

Thanks for the encouraging words and testimony. Hopefully, others will see the value as well. Only time will tell.

[G3SEA]

1. Obviously countries are not DX on Echolink contacts via fibre connected repeaters http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif That's why no one QSL's
for Echolink ( or IRLP ) contacts. It's just a way to natter
on distant repeaters much like we do on local repeaters.

I happened to get on a Baton Rouge Repeater just after Katrina hit. They were not passing emergency traffic but a kind Cajun Ham helped locate a Cajun lady friend.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # 73 & Aloha http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # KH6/G3SEA

[KE5FRF]

Lets not bash, it isn't worth it. QRZ members and hams need to find a way to work together in the ether of the RF spectrum, not get into this class warfare system. What purpose does it serve? Lets offend this group so that they can in turn strike at us? The enemy is not NCTs, because they are future generals and extras. The enemy is not EchoLink, it is only a software program, it has no feelings, so you can't offend it. The enemy is not the FCC, it only does what the politicians want it to do. The enemy is not Extras and Generals, because they are former NCTs and novices (as a collective group). The enemy is terrorism, child pornography, rape, biggotry, murder, hunger, and disease. Lets fight those battles, not the silly petty battles about new technology vs. old. Ham Radio will become what it WILL become, like it or not. You aren't going to change the world by arguing a moot point here on QRZ.com. Just like CW is here to stay, as long as there are fingers to tap a key, there will be CW, and as long as there are computers, there will be EchoLInk. Won't change, no matter how much you want it to. I don't thing EchoLink is very high on President Bush's list of things to defeat, so don't expect a Bill to pass from Congress anytime soon. It wouldn't matter anyway, it is a worldwide phenomenon, and no little American ham from Hoboken, NJ or Texarkana, TX or wherever is going to change it.

You know, when I tell my child, "you shouldn't do that", or, "Don't touch that", or "That's bad", his reaction is rarely, "yes, sir" and perfect obedience. It is his human nature to want what I tell him he can't have. If the tactic here is to gripe about EchoLink or whatever in hopes that it will go away, I,m sorry, because that tactic won't work any more than my tactic with my son. Usually the only thing that will get him to listen is punishment. And I'll be darned if ANY Ham, thinks he can give me a spanking. LOL http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[KC9HZJ]

The "Old, Dry Hands" comment was figurative (or symbolic) or whatever. Think about what's meant by that. Too bad everyone takes everything literally, use your imagination. You know, there was a lot of bashing going on before I posted. It always seems to be started by those who aren't NCTs.

By the way, I didn't CHOOSE to be a NCT. That's the starting place I have to begin at. If I could've started off as a General Class, I would've. This is for deep thought, too: I am trying to better myself. Upgrading. Once you have attained the highest class rank, wouldn't it still be wise to broaden your horizons? If you're happy standing still, that's fine. But leave the back-seat driver comments to yourself.

Why does everything have to turn into a NCT debate? Two of my most frequent RF users on my Echolink Node are extra class operators. Have they "sold out" or are they broadening their horizons?

To echo my previous post... Let's get back to the subject... Emergency Communications.

[ab0wr]

Folks,

I think the Baker Sierra is starting to get a little deep in this thread.

I've talked to several people that were in the hurricane disaster areas in the gulf. There was NO internet, no cell phones, etc. That means there was no Echolink. Those that had echolink running were not in the hard hit parts. I'm not saying the hurricane didn't go through some of these areas, but as an example, we just got hit with thunderstorms a week ago with 70-80mph sustained winds. It didn't knock out the repeaters, official communications, or the internet. Saying that Echolink provided continuing communications here during those storms really means nothing when it comes to emergency communications. Saying that Echolink provided emergency comm's in areas where the hurricane went through but didn't affect communications isn't saying anything either.

And for the fellow who said a tornado took out the electricity plus all communications in the county including all telephones, cell phones, police, sheriff, and fire communications but not the internet and that Echolink via Verizon was was still available for emergency communications, I am dubious. Very, very dubious. I saw nothing even close to this in any reporting on those storms. I have seen nothing on the internet even close to that. Hyperbole by a cheerleader is to be expected, but don't expect the rest of us to bite on this. #CONSIDER: if all these other communications were out, what good would echolink be? You couldn't get ahold of any of the first responders to dispatch them to an emergency anyway!! Nor could anyone get a call out of the area to someone who could call back in using echolink to begin with.

Saying everything was dead is nice to build up the severity of the emergency but then it is a little suspicious to imply taht calls were being made in the area using the communications that were supposedly dead.

Like I said, it's getting a little deep. If you are going to post examples of how Echolink is a lifesaver, at least make sure the example is internally consistent. Otherwise your credibility just goes out the window.

tim ab0wr

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] (ab0wr @ Dec. 05 2005,15:43)]Folks,

I think the Baker Sierra is starting to get a little deep in this thread.

I've talked to several people that were in the hurricane disaster areas in the gulf. There was NO internet, no cell phones, etc. That means there was no Echolink. Those that had echolink running were not in the hard hit parts. I'm not saying the hurricane didn't go through some of these areas, but as an example, we just got hit with thunderstorms a week ago with 70-80mph sustained winds. It didn't knock out the repeaters, official communications, or the internet. Saying that Echolink provided continuing communications here during those storms really means nothing when it comes to emergency communications. Saying that Echolink provided emergency comm's in areas where the hurricane went through but didn't affect communications isn't saying anything either.

And for the fellow who said a tornado took out the electricity plus all communications in the county including all telephones, cell phones, police, sheriff, and fire communications but not the internet and that Echolink via Verizon was was still available for emergency communications, I am dubious. Very, very dubious. I saw nothing even close to this in any reporting on those storms. I have seen nothing on the internet even close to that. Hyperbole by a cheerleader is to be expected, but don't expect the rest of us to bite on this. #CONSIDER: if all these other communications were out, what good would echolink be? You couldn't get ahold of any of the first responders to dispatch them to an emergency anyway!! Nor could anyone get a call out of the area to someone who could call back in using echolink to begin with.

Saying everything was dead is nice to build up the severity of the emergency but then it is a little suspicious to imply taht calls were being made in the area using the communications that were supposedly dead.

Like I said, it's getting a little deep. If you are going to post examples of how Echolink is a lifesaver, at least make sure the example is internally consistent. Otherwise your credibility just goes out the window.

tim ab0wr
Are you callin him, or us, liars?

[KC9HZJ]

Dubious, eh? One thing I am not is a liar. Didn't hear those reports? Blah. Take it from someone who was there. Sit there in your warm chair and sift through the crap and form your own opinions. But when you want the facts, take it from someone who was there. Or... drag yourself down here. Put in 18 hour days for a week helping out, and then form your opinions. Give me a break. Let's all pick me apart so we don't have to discuss the real issues.

[KC9HZJ]

I'm finished with this post and the remarks. If you say that I am being condescending, look in the mirror. Jeez. You seem to be able to post your opinions, so I post mine, too. I'm done. I will not post any more comments. Feel free to post your "Amens", and "Hallelujahs" that Im gone. But how about getting back to the topic, eh?

One more condescending remark, though. And this is for AI4CB.... go back to 75M where you can cuss and carry on about the NCTs and their new technology. No one needs your filth here.

KC9HZJ out.

[KC9HZJ]

I apologize if the previous post was directed to the wrong person. There are too many call signs to keep up with. The one to whom it is directed knows who they are.

One more thing. Never once did I say that people would die if everyone didn't embrace Echolink. What I did say was that if using it could help save a life, why not use it. And never once did I say that my internet connection saved people here. What I did say on that point was that I did have a connection available, and it is possible that some emergency communications could have taken place through it. Why not utilize every means available?
Oh, that's right... we can't use it because some people think it's not ham radio. How could I have forgotten. Thanks for the reminder.

[kc8ycz]

Strong suggestion to everyone go back to the beginning and read the first post I put in there. Its real upsetting. Useful information gets so twisted and all I wanted to do was inform people that if they need some help no matter if they have a phone, internet or whatever, it's there.

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] (ai4cb @ Dec. 05 2005,15:52)]Quote[/b] (KC9HZJ @ Dec. 05 2005,15:38)].... It always seems to be started by those who aren't NCTs.
.... If you're happy standing still, that's fine. But leave the back-seat driver comments to yourself.
More condescending remarks. You just don't get it, do you.
As I have suggested before, name calling and bashing isn't going to change anything. It doesn't reflect highly on the basher or the bashee, because they both inevitably reverse roles. And calling someone a liar is the retort of someone with no facts, no evidence, and no point. I have heard my five year old accuse the neighbor boy of lying when he gets told on for not sharing or something.

I have no fear of posting my comments or testimonials, and I have no problem with anyone sharing their opinions on the contrary. But, calling something Bravo Sierra doesn't make it Bravo Sierra. Again, this is the response of someone who can't refute the evidence. (i.e. "Your Honor, the prosecution closes its case with this final comment for the jury: The Defense attorney's case was pure Bravo Sierra, IMHO. Please consider that when you make your deliberations")

I swear, in all my life, I have seen people fight, bicker, and squabble over some things trivial and some things important. I guess it is human nature to need some conflict in your life from somewhere. I prefer to enjoy the things God has blessed upon me, and not trouble myself over trivial matters. It makes for a healthier lifestyle. And BTW, just what exactly is SO BAD about the internet anyway? Can our radios become somehow poisoned or diseased by linking to an internet connection? Its not like they can have babies together or something and produce offspring. (Can they?). If there are radios and computers giving birth to mixed children, please let me know, cause I've personally never heard of that. Darn the impurity!

So, it is nearly 3:30 pm CT, which is my quittin' time. I will go home and check in to some local nets, say hi to the local ops, perhaps my friend Barry from Georgia can check in via EchoLink and join the fun.

[kc8ycz]

Yes content is the same just added a top section
thats all

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] (kc8ycz @ Dec. 05 2005,16:15)]Strong suggestion to everyone go back to the beginning and read the first post I put in there. #Its real upsetting. #Useful information gets so twisted and all I wanted to do was inform people that if they need some help no matter if they have a phone, internet or whatever, it's there.
kc8ycz,

# #I know the intention of your original post, but you have to understand something about QRZ, everyone here has saved at least one life with their HF rig at least once or twice, and are all experts on emergency ops. Ok, that was a little too broad, but usually the ones who post on the NCT/EchoLink threads are all experts on life/death Emergency networking, and have on numerous occasions single handedly stopped some major disaster from the comfort of their ham shack. Being that they are all experts, it is hard to argue with them. They ARE the final authority on what equipment serves a purpose and what doesn't. Until we get our HF rig, and the secret cape, superhero tights, and utility belt that comes with it, we can't make any claims to being helpfull in a crisis. Lets face it, the only person anyone in a true emergency can really depend on is a Superhero, like batman or spiderman, and everyone knows that they have their Extra Class license and operate at 30 WPM. Haven't you heard of the "bat-key"? As techs using EchoLink, we'll always be side-kicks, never achieving "full-hero" status.

(Until we upgrade when the requirement is dropped)

BTW, I'm thinking about starting a NCT/EchoLink club thread here on QRZ. Know Codes not allowed. Since this is not an FCC regulated mode or "frequency", I'm going to distribute a secret chryptogram to all NCTs who want to participate. This way we can acheive equal status as CW/HF ops on this QRZ, and talk about our subjects without someone jumping in and criticising it. Like the idea? They'll have their code, we'll have ours...LOL

Actually, just kidding, but if someway I could write something with lemonjuice...you know the old trick...lol

Quote[/b] ]P.S. This is not meant to be a heated argument, just to inform folks that if they have an Emergency they can count on The ARICC and The Missing Lynk System!


BTW, man, I'm sorry for helping drag this off topic, it is always good to know there is another means of helping. I am an ARRIC member myself. I helped during the 'Canes, as much as I could. I haven't lately been active, due to personal commitments, but I wish all the best things for the future of these organizations.
...But be aware, just by mentioning EchoLink here or anything Code/NC related (even if it resembles it) will get the hounds sniffing around to post their criticisms. They can't help themselves. Band conditions are still at a low point in the cycle, and they have nothing else to do but post negative comments here. Personally, I see it as a classic oximoron to read posts chiding computers and the internet from a person who is sitting at a computer and communicating through the internet. As I said before, what is the fear? And you know, the truth is probably 65 or 70 percent of the higher class ops don't really mind EchoLink, and may even use it, and probably 50% of them really don't care about the code being dropped or not. But unfortunately for us who post here, most of those guys are avid operators who are above posting here, so the balance seems skewed . There are a lot of bored Coders out there with nothing better to do. I myself admit that I post here just for the fun of it, and don't mind admitting it plays to my childish side sometimes. But, I learned my lesson about letting my emotions get the best of me and direct insults at anyone. I'd much rather talk about something in a civil discourse. I myself have studied code at my leisure at home, but family commitments keep me in a rut. I really don't care that much anymore, because I'll be doing what I like to do no matter what anyone else has to say about it. No feelings of mine will be hurt if someone shuns me on the air. I'll just "move on". Besides, it is the technical aspect of radio that really interests me anyway, not Bravo Sierraing with people who don't have anything benefficial to add to my life. On the other hand, if you want to ragchew with me about something interesting on the air, I'm always here to do just that.

Gotta run, time to pick up the youngin'

[k9ekg]

I'm not real big on Echolink myself, but I'm sure it could be made to work. Portable sites on back-up power established after entry? WiFi? 802.11b? Links? I could see it working if someone had the investment or the equipment it would take to get a connection from inside the disaster zone to the outside. I would not discount it 100%, but it would have to take time to establish, unlike powering up a 2 way radio and passing a message.


Chris

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] (KC9HZJ @ Dec. 05 2005,13:53)]Dubious, eh? One thing I am not is a liar. Didn't hear those reports? Blah. Take it from someone who was there. Sit there in your warm chair and sift through the crap and form your own opinions. But when you want the facts, take it from someone who was there. Or... drag yourself down here. Put in 18 hour days for a week helping out, and then form your opinions. Give me a break. Let's all pick me apart so we don't have to discuss the real issues.
Quote[/b] ]kc9hzj:"Even with my cell phone, home phone, and electric not working, I was able to be connected to the internet through Verizon's Wireless Broadband. I set up my Echolink node on emergency power as a repeater for emergency use, but had I the knowledge I have now, I would have kept it connected to Echolink as well. All other communication was down in our county. No Police, Sheriff, EMS, Fire, etc."

If you will come down out of your apolectic fit, I did not call you a liar. I called you a cheerleader. I then said cheerleaders tend to use hyperbole to hype their point.

That is obviously what you were doing. Even if the internet was working when nothing, absolutely nothing else was working (and you expect us to be anything *but* dubious about this? you have your cable modem and computers wired to long term backup power?) what good would it do? Like I said, you wouldn't be able to dispatch anyone. If the telephone was out, how could you get to the 911 center? And if the node was really being used for emergency communications would you want it tied up by anyone outside the area who could access it with an Echolink connection?

If an internet link via radio is available, it would be much more valuable set up as a node for passing logistical data than as a voice repeater for people outside the disaster area to tie up. Or it would be more valuable set up as a communcation link for all those police, fire, and EMT personnel whose communication links were dead, which is apparently what you did.

Echolink may have some use in some emergencies. However I see its use as very, very limited. As someone pointed out, H&W inquiries via the Salvation Army web site is much more efficient.

tim ab0wr

[ab0wr]

ai4cb: "Pfft".

Very succinct. Hits the nail right on the head.

tim ab0wr

[kc8ycz]

This is not to point a finger or anything but people are missing the point of all this. It was just supposed to be informal. Yes someone can get on HF to pass H&W Traffic and yes HF might get you out a little farther then VHF or UHF. All I was trying to do is let people know that there is more help out there. Nothing against QRZ but I will not be adding my comments to parts of the forum that are part af an argument. No one can just say "Hey. Thanks for offering" or "Hey glad to here there is more help out there. No everyone has to make it a big bitch session and turn in to This person is this and this person is that. My YL just told me she read all the post. She took her test Dec 3 and passed, NCT, and she will have her callsign in a little while but her comment was, "If this is how they treat a NCT just think how they will treat a female." And all she wanted to do was have some QSO's with some nice folks anywhere. I will leave it at that. Don't know if I made my point or not but 73 to all and to all a --------.

[w4nti]

Quote[/b] (KC9HZJ @ Dec. 04 2005,23:29)]I have to say I agree that during times of disaster, utilizing all means of communication is important. I am proud to be a part of the Missing Lynk system, and if that peeves any "old timers" then I am NOT sorry.

You know, ham radio is all about pushing forward. Amateur Radio has always been a testing ground for new technology. There was a time when packet "wasn't ham radio". Look how far that's come. No one is advocating removing HF radios from the old, dry hands of those who dislike Echolink. Heck, I just bought an HF rig that I plan to use all the time when I pass my General & CW exams this month. There is a place for all technologies in Ham Radio. I quite enjoy the contacts I make on Echolink. What band is it where you are guaranteed a 5/9 signal with any station you choose to communicate with? Thought so... can't think of one can you!

Anyway, I'm not trying to cause more dissention amongst the ranks of the amateur radio operators in the world. I am only writing to perhaps open the eyes of those who haven't turned their noses away from new technology. You can't move forward when you're sitting still, my friends.

Just my two cents worth. When I started in Ham Radio, I was told that I was getting involved in a progressive hobby full of friendly folks willing to help out. I'm sorry that I was mistaken.

73,
KC9HZJ
You are basically right. Amateur RADIO is pushing the envelope. But......internet is NOT radio. Need I continue?

I'm not saying not to use the newest and latest. And I have NO PROBLEM with using Echolink ALONG WITH AMATEUR RADIO. But when it comes down to putting all the eggs in the hi-tech basket. I will guarantee the basket will break. Then what?

Dan/W4NTI

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] (w4nti @ Dec. 05 2005,16:44)]Quote[/b] (KC9HZJ @ Dec. 04 2005,23:29)]I have to say I agree that during times of disaster, utilizing all means of communication is important. I am proud to be a part of the Missing Lynk system, and if that peeves any "old timers" then I am NOT sorry.

You know, ham radio is all about pushing forward. Amateur Radio has always been a testing ground for new technology. There was a time when packet "wasn't ham radio". Look how far that's come. No one is advocating removing HF radios from the old, dry hands of those who dislike Echolink. Heck, I just bought an HF rig that I plan to use all the time when I pass my General & CW exams this month. There is a place for all technologies in Ham Radio. I quite enjoy the contacts I make on Echolink. What band is it where you are guaranteed a 5/9 signal with any station you choose to communicate with? Thought so... can't think of one can you!

Anyway, I'm not trying to cause more dissention amongst the ranks of the amateur radio operators in the world. I am only writing to perhaps open the eyes of those who haven't turned their noses away from new technology. You can't move forward when you're sitting still, my friends.

Just my two cents worth. When I started in Ham Radio, I was told that I was getting involved in a progressive hobby full of friendly folks willing to help out. I'm sorry that I was mistaken.

73,
KC9HZJ
You are basically right. #Amateur RADIO is pushing the envelope. #But......internet is NOT radio. #Need I continue?

I'm not saying not to use the newest and latest. #And I have NO PROBLEM with using Echolink ALONG WITH AMATEUR RADIO. #But when it comes down to putting all the eggs in the hi-tech basket. # I will guarantee the basket will break. #Then what?

Dan/W4NTI
Then what? New Orleans.

There is a lot of news today about the 9/11 commission talking about Congress not pushing a common RF spectrum for emergency communication links among responders.

Shows how little they know - it's just so much politics.

Even with common spectrum, who's going to have common equipment working with common protocols with common security codes, etc?

Wanna guess?

tim ab0wr

[W6SN]

Quote[/b] (ai4cb @ Dec. 05 2005,14:05)]Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Dec. 05 2005,15:47)]Are you callin him, or us, liars?
For example, the case where the internet was working and the telephones were working, and a Health & Welfare inquiry was handled (and which is not 'emergency traffic' as the discussion was originally about). Seriously, I just don't see what is such a big deal about using echolink to handle one health and welfare inquiry, when they could have gotten the same result more simply and quickly by email.
How do you target your email then?

Do you email randomham@affectedareas.com?

I personally don't use echolink or IRLP, but I seem to recall that you could look up people based on where the node was located. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that'd make a much more effective way of reaching the affected area, than trying to send an email.

Having every available resource at your fingertips is a very important thing. When the sh*t hits the fan, you don't want to have to wait to try and get stuff setup. If the only available method of communication is over echolink, use it by all means. A good case in point is the story about the tech (most likely a NCT, must be a whiner, huh?) who was in an affected area, and therefore had no other RF avenues available to him.

Some may say "Why didn't he just give them his phone number?"

Perhaps he doesn't like to give his phone number out? Perhaps he has an unlisted number, which would suddenly be heard over the air in a very global way...

Please don't bother to try flaming me for my opinions or lauding me for my point of view, as I am not going to read this thread anymore. If you truly want to get ahold of me, email me at the address listed under my callsign here.

Just don't shoot yourself in the foot by ignoring or lambasting newer technologies in the name of staying "pure" with RF.

Just my 1 cent, inflation's a b*tch, ain't it?

Jason

[W4JVY]

You know what? I'm tired of all this junk.
I think you all are full of it.
Don.

[KI4LZK]

Quote[/b] (kc8ycz @ Dec. 05 2005,10:56)]So what most people think is that internet will go down all over the world at the same time. #The only way that will happen is if the entire world blows up. #I know things can happen but the entire world gone? #I won't say it's not going to happen because you never know but it's not going to happen anytime soon. #
Hmm... I think you need to do a little research, look around a bit, then comeback and tell me what I am talking about ;)

Josh KI4LZK

[n9vo]

Just for curiousity sake, approximately how many members are in these fine organizations that struck this strategic alliance?

[ki4jek]

In a desaster, power, phone, etc. out, also a very large number of HF rigs because they do not have emergency back up power, some do but most don't. And what about diapols etc being blown down? We then turn to VHF &UHF moble and hand helds. Great for local traffic. How do you get HF needed help. I know of only two repeaters that have auto start generators incase of power outage, I am sure there are more across the country. Only one of these is connected to echolink. Which community do you think would have the best chance for quick help from outside there community?
If, I recall correctly, all echolink users are ham operaters, tech or what have you, there fore they should be knowledgeable in emergency communications and would be more than able to handle traffic. Lets stop bickering and see what we all can do to help emergency communications. Who knows our famlys lives may depend on it, what ever type it may be. We want to keep our ham bands check in with as many nets as you have time, just check in and out, be it RACES, ARES or a general net. Remember a lot of the total number of checkins are collect and sent to the FCC. It is my understanding that they use this info to compile amateur band usage. Hope to see you all on 20 Meter SSTV 73's Don KI4JEK

[N5USN]

AB0WR wrote:

Folks,

I think the Baker Sierra is starting to get a little deep in this thread.

I've talked to several people that were in the hurricane disaster areas in the gulf. There was NO internet, no cell phones, etc. That means there was no Echolink. Those that had echolink running were not in the hard hit parts.
---------------------------------------------
I guess I had better call the State O.E.P. back and tell them that the people that CALLED from their trapped homes using cell phones were all CRANK calls. I passed a few messages from these people trapped and waiting for rescue. Please research your BS before you start to dish it out.

N5USN
Baton Rouge River Center Shelter
Passed info to the State O.E.P.

[n3eg]

Someone said:

>So what most people think is that internet will go down >all over the world at the same time. The only way that >will happen is if the entire world blows up. I know >things can happen but the entire world gone? I won't >say it's not going to happen because you never know >but it's not going to happen anytime soon.

Not only did our internet go down yesterday, but so did most cellphones, 911 lines, long distance (including FX lines for the 911 center!) and radio wireline circuits. Fortunately, all I missed by losing the internet was the chance to say "Told you so!" to hams who rely too much on it.

[kf9er]

ANYTHING IN AN EMERGENCY!!! Whatever will get through! Echolink DX??? No, but if you enjoy it use it. One question, what signal report do you give to those who call on your telephone?

[N2OBS]

HF like Echolink, IRLP and other internet based programs have problems just like HF...sunspot activity can raise or bring down an entire band just like a slicing of a internet connect. Ham radio is basically anything to serve as a medium, anything to keep ham radio alive and well active is better for me and the entire community but let's keep the foundation of ham radio solid, respect your fellow ham radio operator by not disrespecting them..never know, you might need us in an emergency or to keep you awake on the road.

[K0RGR]

I'm not sure how to react to this whole thing.

I do not advocate focusing a lot of energy on Internet-based communications for emergencies. True, here in the midwest, where we are not prone to Biblical scale disasters, and in many other cases where the Internet is not going to be affected over wide areas, EchoLink can certainly provide a very useful avenue for linking repeaters in an emergency. But it was not real useful in the first days after Katrina (though it was in the other hurricanes this year).

But as long as everybody recognizes that it is just one more tool in the kit, it's OK.

[k5co]

Quote[/b] (na4it @ Dec. 05 2005,10:37)]When I try to tell people about Christ, I don't tell them what he can do for them. I tell them what He has done for me.
on't have to like it.
Jesus, now we gotta hear the God-botherin bro's too! Can't we switch to code/no code?

[w7nb]

People who are not actively involved in EMCOMM comonly miss out on two fundaments. #First of all I don't want to pass my emergency message involving the greatist number of ham's possible over the most toruist route - I want it to go direct or via the most direct route possible. #Nirvana is two operators involved #- one at the initiation point and one at the destination. #IE disaster area to EOC, or County EOC to State EOC. #Second, I want to use ham radio for the shortest distance possible - that "last mile" where normal communications don't work. #During the hurricanes great numbers of messages were passed out of the effected areas to the nearest location with working PSTN, then telephoned or emailed to there destinations.

Rather then screw around with echolink, we have set up a network of VHF and HF telepac nodes. #By using Airmail I can send a message DIRECTLY TO THE PERON WHO NEEDS IT. #No ham to ham to ham. #No "Echolink net control" looking for someone to pass the traffic to. # If the node in my county is down, I can reach the node in one of the adjacent counties. #If all the adjacent counties are down, then I'm going to be using HF. #The ONLY time I would see echolink as usefull is if there were an echolink capable repeater in an adjacent county that I could set up on a direct to desktop link in an EOC or relief agency command center. #And I don't need an "International Coalition" of no code techs to make it happen. #

I use echolink as part of my hobby pusuits - it's nice to keep in touch with my ham friends in VK or ZL when propigation is not up to snuff. #I listened to the echolink nets after the tsunami and was amused when there was no traffic to pass. #Well guess what - they used HF and even :::gasp::: CW to get messages out of the damaged areas to VK or ZL, who then TELEPHONED or EMAILED the messages to there destinations.

Guess I probably would not trust traffic to a bunch of folks who were sitting around passing rumors and unsubstantiated information either.

The moral to this tirade? #Enjoy the hobby. #Play and experiment with the modes you enjoy, and continue to try new things. #For the general and extra class folks reading this, do your elmering duty and encourage (browbeat cajole harass - whatever it takes) the newbies to continue to advance their skills. #These are the things that have made ham radio what is is.

As for EMCOMM, put your toys away, stop making up new organizations of other similar toy hounds, and learn how to use a RADIO. #

W7RAI
ARES/RACES District Emergency Coordinator
Oregon Section

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Dec. 05 2005,21:50)]I'm not sure how to react to this whole thing.

I do not advocate focusing a lot of energy on Internet-based communications for emergencies. True, here in the midwest, where we are not prone to Biblical scale disasters, and in many other cases where the Internet is not going to be affected over wide areas, EchoLink can certainly provide a very useful avenue for linking repeaters in an emergency. But it was not real useful in the first days after Katrina (though it was in the other hurricanes this year).

But as long as everybody recognizes that it is just one more tool in the kit, it's OK.
This post is exactly the mature, well reasoned, non-hyped comment we should all be able to agree on...

After all, for instance, cars don't NEED computers in them to run, but you can't buy a car today that doesn't have a computer monitoring its systems. It isn't a blasphemy, its the truth. A purist would only drive cars built pre-80s, and thats fine, but eventually the purist will buy a newer car, and get over his bias against computers...."What does this have to do with anything?",...well, time is marching on, and computers are becoming an every day facet of our lives, even the lives of those who would shun them. You are driving through a major city, and the traffic light turns red...computers....You pay for dinner with a credit card...computers.....You turn on the TV and watch ESPN....computers behind the scenes everywhere. And more likely than not, so is the internet. Motorists is stranded and calls On-Star to send a tow truck...computers. The list goes on and on.

Is there something displeasing about monitoring a frequency, and hearing an operator call out is callsign and finding out he has linked to the repeater through EchoLink? Is it THE PERSON you are having a QSO with, or the radio waves that carry his signal? What exactly is it about linking radio with the internet that is the cause of so much fear and loathing?....

I must admit, this thread has actually been pretty civil, for the most part, but I suppose it probably is mostly because the heavy drinkers haven't gotten drunk enough to log in and start the real bashing....I have yet to read, in my months of reading QRZ, a legitimate reason not to use EchoLink. And I'll add this last comment so you can let it sink in....If there is anything, ANYTHING at all that prevents EchoLink or IRLP or WIRES or any other VoIP mode from being usefull, it is the bias against it that keeps more people from taking advantage of it. I tell you this, if every Amateur operator with an internet connection and a spare UHF/VHF rig set up an EchoLink node, and all of them were networked together, the communications system the Amateur community would have rights to would rival Ma Bell in its coverage. Any operator would be able to contact any other operator with ease, and it would be invaluable in the event of a disaster. But no, this just won't happen today in this CW/no CW environment, because there is too much fear, too much paranoia, and too few people who are willing to try something new. Give it a few years, maybe a decade or so, when the younger hams become a bigger influence, but it ain't gonna happen today. Its OK, because I have patience. And when I become the General/Extra class operator of the future, and an industrious ham comes up with another new technique or mode, I'm going to remember these events, and Elmer the younger hams to keep up the inventive spirit that once defined Amateur Radio. This is the spirit that made me want my license, but I have found to be all but dead having actually become a part of it.

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] (N5USN @ Dec. 05 2005,18:36)]AB0WR wrote:

Folks,

I think the Baker Sierra is starting to get a little deep in this thread.

I've talked to several people that were in the hurricane disaster areas in the gulf. There was NO internet, no cell phones, etc. That means there was no Echolink. Those that had echolink running were not in the hard hit parts.
---------------------------------------------
I guess I had better call the State O.E.P. back and tell them that the people that CALLED from their trapped homes using cell phones were all CRANK calls. #I passed a few messages from these people trapped and waiting for rescue. #Please research your BS before you start to dish it out.

N5USN
Baton Rouge River Center Shelter
Passed info to the State O.E.P.
Then all of you that were there had better start getting all your stories together.

Talk to WA5BEN about what he experienced. I'm pretty sure he wasn't feeding anyone any bull.

Neither was ns5d in Washington Parish when he said (look it up in the November QST) that there was no phone service in the whole parish.

There may have been a few cell calls that got out, lord only knows through what propagation paths to what cell towers, but there was NO EMERGENCY COMMUNICATION being done through that media in those locations.

That's NOT B.S.

People who are say that internet and cell phones can be depended upon for emergency communications in those type of disasters are setting up people who take this for gospel for very bad consequences. If New Orleans was not a sufficient enough example for everyone in this United States then I just cannot imagine what kind of example it will take.

YOU depend upon the internet and Echolink. I'm not going to and neither is my family or friends. It's nice for what it does but dependence on it is just crazy.

mutter.......mutter..... phones dead but cable working....?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif


tim ab0wr

[ky1v]

Quote[/b] (KC9HZJ @ Dec. 05 2005,01:29)]You know, ham radio is all about pushing forward.

What band is it where you are guaranteed a 5/9 signal with any station you choose to communicate with? Thought so... can't think of one can you!

73,
KC9HZJ
Excuse me. Hello, is anyone in there? Hello? Hello?

Ham radio is not about pushing forward, it IS about RADIO!

It is not about Internet, IRLP, Internet Protocol or packets. This is all a bunch of malarkey that a few Internet nerds would like to shove down the throats of the rest of us.

Let me make it clear. I DON'T WANT IT!!!

Your nonsense about "what band is it where you are guaranteed a 5/9 signal with any station...blah blah blah" is more BS that I don't care about. Besides, if I want 5/9 signal reports, all I need is a large array of yagi antennas and I can get 5/9 reception almost all the time! What happens to your 5/9 report when the repeater goes down or you are out of range of your repeater or the Internet connection is down or the node goes off line? I'll can pick A BAND, day or night and work a G station...GUARANTEED, except during a major flare!

Listen carefully....The magic IS NOT ABOUT 5/9 signal reports. It's about the hunt, the chase, the anxiety, the experience and the satisfaction when you finally bag that new one!

We want to work DX stations. You know, the ones running 50 watts and a dipole with QSB, QRN. We want to tweak our knobs and make adjustments that make the difference between working him or not. You know, the ones that take SKILL to pull out of the mud.

Have you ever jumped in a CW pileup and tuned slightly off frequency and worked the station on the first call because of your SKILL, not your POWER? It is exhilarating!

Let me ask you a question...when's the last time you used your RF gain control? You know, that knob connected to the outer ring of your AF control. Yeah, just what I thought.

You probably don't know how to use it, let alone when to use it. Have you ever wondered how the RF Gain and AGC work in conjunction with one another.

Oh, I forgot, you weren't required to understand radio technology when you got your license. You just memorized a bunch or Q & A's off your Internet connection and got your license from the new "give it away" government that doesn't want to regulate anything any longer.

Does it sound like I'm ticked off? A sour old timer? Do I come off as one of those prick Extra Class hams that makes you not want to upgrade?

Too frickin bad. I am so sick and tired of listening to a bunch of "wanna be" ham CB'ers crying and moaning about the old timers whom won't except change, won't help Elmer new comers. What a bunch of malarkey.

We don't want RADIO to become something else. That's right...go back and read it again! WE DON'T WANT RADIO TO BECOME SOMETHING ELSE, like the INTERNET!

We don't mind using the Internet as a tool, but making contacts THROUGH the Internet is NOT RADIO even if a radio is used at both ends.

It is MAKE BELIEVE RADIO for kids, losers and lids!

Get a life, learn the code, get licensed, put up an antenna and join the world of RADIO! Oh, did I mention the word RADIO?

Say it...RADIO RADIO RADIO RADIO...now don't forget the word RADIO!

David ~ KY1V

" ...wondering how many feathers I ruffled...LOL "

[kc8kod]

Although I am not a real fan of VOIP, I challenge anyone here to disagree that it is not worthwhile to familiarize yourself with more forms of communication. It does not mean you must be reliant on one single type or mode. To have the ability to utilize anything available to you in a time that you need communications is what counts. If thinking outside the box saves the life of even one single person, do you feel it's worth the effort to briefly educate yourself with something that you may not enjoy on a day-to-day basis? I, for one do. This bashing and spread of FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) seems tiresome, pointless and quite counter-productive to our hobby. I always welcome constructive critisizm but people tend to get a bit carried away. I personally feel that not one single form or mode of communication is always superior and can always be relied upon in every situation. Ignorance and unwillingness to learn something new usually bites one in the behind when an emergency arises and the form of communication that was shunned surprisingly becomes the most fitting at that particular time to handle the situation.

No bashing, no content in this post made to intentionally offend anyone here, just my opinion. I'm always looking forward to hearing new ideas and getting new perspectives on things.

73 de KC8KOD

[na4it]

KD5PSH wrote:

"Jesus, now we gotta hear the God-botherin bro's too! Can't we switch to code/no code?"

Thanks for the flame my friend. May God bless you, and I hope you have a very Merry Christmas, and get all the radio goodies you want. Seriously!

73, NA4IT

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] ]As for EMCOMM, put your toys away, stop making up new organizations of other similar toy hounds, and learn how to use a RADIO.

I enjoyed reading your post, and you share a lot of wisdom in what you have said, except you could give it all a little more credit than calling it a toy and admonishing its users to learn how to use a Radio. A lot of assumptions have to be made to come to the conclusion that an EchoLink user or enthusiast is an incompetent radio operator. Why can't we do both? Why can't I spend just as much of my time and energy investigating this mode as another would spend on a key and not enjoy the same respect? You never know, folks, todays problem is tommorrows solution, and any holes or weakness in VoIP that might be pointed out now might be long forgotten. As I alluded to in an earlier post, Satellite internet is a growing alternative to conventional broadband, and it is getting cheaper. Soon, companies like Dish Network and others will be offering dependable internet service through a dish, and people in rural areas will have more options.

Besides, Todays technology didn't just happen over night. There has been a lot of experimenaion and advancement since Samuel Morse first tapped out the first coded message, and guess what, the first Know Coders used cable lines, not radio. If the PURIST mentallity had won way back then, CW wouldn't even exist. Its kind of funny how technology and history just kind of go full circle like that, huh? 20 years from now, ham operators will be laughing at how silly it was to hook a radio up to the internet, but the reason they will laugh is because THAT technology will be archaic, and replaced with a technology that will most likely be a natural progression from it. HF transmitters in our Brains perhaps, with e-mail coming from our frontal lobes? LOL, I laugh, but who knows.

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] (ab0wr @ Dec. 05 2005,22:55)]Quote[/b] (N5USN @ Dec. 05 2005,18:36)]AB0WR wrote:

Folks,

I think the Baker Sierra is starting to get a little deep in this thread.

I've talked to several people that were in the hurricane disaster areas in the gulf. There was NO internet, no cell phones, etc. That means there was no Echolink. Those that had echolink running were not in the hard hit parts.
---------------------------------------------
I guess I had better call the State O.E.P. back and tell them that the people that CALLED from their trapped homes using cell phones were all CRANK calls. #I passed a few messages from these people trapped and waiting for rescue. #Please research your BS before you start to dish it out.

N5USN
Baton Rouge River Center Shelter
Passed info to the State O.E.P.
Then all of you that were there had better start getting all your stories together.

Talk to WA5BEN about what he experienced. I'm pretty sure he wasn't feeding anyone any bull.

Neither was ns5d in Washington Parish when he said (look it up in the November QST) that there was no phone service in the whole parish.

There may have been a few cell calls that got out, lord only knows through what propagation paths to what cell towers, but there was NO EMERGENCY COMMUNICATION being done through that media in those locations.

That's NOT B.S.

People who are say that internet and cell phones can be depended upon for emergency communications in those type of disasters are setting up people who take this for gospel for very bad consequences. If New Orleans was not a sufficient enough example for everyone in this United States then I just cannot imagine what kind of example it will take.

YOU depend upon the internet and Echolink. I'm not going to and neither is my family or friends. It's nice for what it does but dependence on it is just crazy.

mutter.......mutter..... phones dead but cable working....?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif


tim ab0wr
Ok, OM, go easy now, your getting histerical....


I happen to know and be a friend of N5USN, a former sailor and a fine upstanding gentleman. We both live in Louisiana, within VHF distance of Washington, Orleans, St, Tammany, and all those Parishes. We lived it, we didn't read about it. People were making cell phone calls from rooftops, fact. This internet infrastructure (I include cell networks in that general category) isn't as weak as you believe it is.

Heck, man, nobody wants to get rid of HF rigs, but an HF radio is just as useless as a computer when it is under 10 feet of water? Do you think the poor folks of New Orleans were walking around, looking for a neighbors Rohn Tower, scuba diving into the neighbors shack, and pulling up an HF rig to let dry in the sun? No, and most of the people left IN New Orleans were too poor to be hams. It was the people on the fringes, the people with generators, HF/UHF/VHF/EchoLink/cellphones/simaphore/tin cans/flare guns and whatever that promoted the lines of communication. Do you think the poor woman from St. Charles Ave. who lost everything she had cared that her message was transmitted via HF or CW? No, she was thankfull to whomever, wherever, and however the message got out that she needed help.

Nobody is holding a gun to your head, don't use EchoLink, I wouldn't want to hear this on it anyway.

As I predicted, the later in the evening it gets, the more irrational, incoherent, and paranoid the arguements become. Its 10:30 here, the alcohol should start talking soon enough. The temptation is getting to me to throw some mud, and my comments are getting more childish, but I don't delete them, because I can't delete what I tell a person to their face, and I'm no more afraid to post the truth as I call it here than I would be to say it in person.

Hang on to whatever mode you enjoy and whatever mode you can use for the greater good. If it be made of brass, more power to you. I'll continue to use my keyboard and life will go on.

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] (na4it @ Dec. 05 2005,23:08)]KD5PSH wrote:

"Jesus, now we gotta hear the God-botherin bro's too! Can't we switch to code/no code?"

Thanks for the flame my friend. May God bless you, and I hope you have a very Merry Christmas, and get all the radio goodies you want. Seriously!

73, NA4IT
Evening, pastor...

I hope you don't mind me addressing you as such, but I can't help it out of deep respect for a person who has chosen the path of God. But let us know if you prefer your callsign in this type of forum...

I know I am "preaching to the choir", pardon the pun, but please don't let people of this ilk offend you.

I see you are from McMinn County. I was born in raised in Blount County, and my mother's family is from Englewood and Athens. You may know some of them, the Brock Clan, children of Hazel and Louis Brock. 14 kids in all. ..My granny Hazel has Alzheimers disease, and is in a home, so you may not know her, but I have several uncles...Amos, Paul,Tommy, Junior, Curtis, Kenny, Billy, and Robert..(I have so many, I hope I haven't skipped one, LOL) My aunts are all married, so you might only know them by married name. Anyway, just thought I would say hello to an East Tennessee amateur op. Maybe I'll catch you on an EchoLink node some time...

(See how the internet and amateur radio can be married to make this world a little smaller folks? )

[na4it]

KE5FRF,

Good to hear from a "home boy"!

KG4FZR-R, 147.060, Echolink 157168 anytime!

Scott, NA4IT

[kc8ycz]

Quote[/b] (kc8kod @ Dec. 06 2005,00:02)]Although I am not a real fan of VOIP, I challenge anyone here to disagree that it is not worthwhile to familiarize yourself with more forms of communication. It does not mean you must be reliant on one single type or mode. To have the ability to utilize anything available to you in a time that you need communications is what counts. If thinking outside the box saves the life of even one single person, do you feel it's worth the effort to briefly educate yourself with something that you may not enjoy on a day-to-day basis? I, for one do. This bashing and spread of FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) seems tiresome, pointless and quite counter-productive to our hobby. I always welcome constructive critisizm but people tend to get a bit carried away. I personally feel that not one single form or mode of communication is always superior and can always be relied upon in every situation. Ignorance and unwillingness to learn something new usually bites one in the behind when an emergency arises and the form of communication that was shunned surprisingly becomes the most fitting at that particular time to handle the situation.

No bashing, no content in this post made to intentionally offend anyone here, just my opinion. I'm always looking forward to hearing new ideas and getting new perspectives on things.

73 de KC8KOD
This coming from an EXTRA class. Thanks Bro. Means alot.

[KE5FRF]

kc8ycz,

I haven't taken the time to complement your group on the steps you are taking to advance your system. I looked over the website, well done. One of these days, I'll be moving away from dial-up and getting broadband myself, so I might ask to join your group soon. Anyway, just wanted to give a thumbs up.

Keep it up.

[w9mpc]

Holy maniacally mad monkies, Batman! The adrenaline, the anger, the flames, the ego-driven frantic typings of legions of equine recti!

For Pete's sake, people-- put down the collective crack pipe! Nobody wants to take away HF. Nobody wants to replace it. Heck I dig it and I'm not even allowed down there...yet. But I will be, just as soon as I pass the next set of tests-- just like YOU did.
Echolink is good for a lot of things;
Here is where it is truly great:
13 stations
4 continents
Everyone heard everyone else at the equivalent of 5/9 signal-- simultaneously and in real-time.
Best part-- this was part of a nightly rag-chew between four old friends--one in Indiana, one in California, one in England, and one in Australia. They get together pretty much every night for a ragchew.
As for the other stations--myself included-- these folks were gracious enough to include us in their discussion.
Bear in mind that these guys are all Extra class or equivalent-- one has been active since the 1940s. They still play on HF, quite extensively as a matter of fact. But they still use Echolink as a vital part of their hobby!

Quote[/b] ]Holy maniacally mad monkies, Batman! The adrenaline, the anger, the flames, the ego-driven frantic typings....

http://www.astronomics.com/main/images/bruceavatar.gif

[w9mpc]

W9NGC

Now THAT was funny!! ;)

73

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] (kc9gkh @ Dec. 06 2005,00:35)]Holy maniacally mad monkies, Batman! The adrenaline, the anger, the flames, the ego-driven frantic typings of legions of equine recti!

For Pete's sake, people-- put down the collective crack pipe! Nobody wants to take away HF. Nobody wants to replace it. Heck I dig it and I'm not even allowed down there...yet. But I will be, just as soon as I pass the next set of tests-- just like YOU did.
Echolink is good for a lot of things;
Here is where it is truly great:
13 stations
4 continents
Everyone heard everyone else at the equivalent of 5/9 signal-- simultaneously and in real-time.
Best part-- this was part of a nightly rag-chew between four old friends--one in Indiana, one in California, one in England, and one in Australia. They get together pretty much every night for a ragchew.
As for the other stations--myself included-- these folks were gracious enough to include us in their discussion.
Bear in mind that these guys are all Extra class or equivalent-- one has been active since the 1940s. They still play on HF, quite extensively as a matter of fact. But they still use Echolink as a vital part of their hobby!
Man, I'm up way too late, but this topic has really been enjoyable, and for the most part, alcohol rant free, so I'm continuing to add my thoughts, or fodder, or whatever you choose to call it.

One thing I must comment on that you mentioned, the global aspect of EchoLink systems and their ilk. From my perspective, and from what I've generally seen and heard, the rest of the world's amateur community doesn't bash VoIP, its generally the American hams who gripe about it. And THAT, my friends, is very indicitive of the trend our country is headed in, if we let it. The 20th century was the century of American innovation and leadership, blazing our way into the communications era, but now that we are here, in the 21st century, the rest of the world will be happy to pass us up, taking our innovations and running with them, while we sit around arguing. This isn't just a Ham phenomenon, its happening all around us in all aspects of technology, as the world gets ever smaller, and the resources get spread ever thinner, and as people of wealth decide to invest elsewhere where growth is a potential. Our inability to adapt as Hams to the times just might be the signal of America's better days being behind us, unless, of course, we ALL get off our collective butts and become the innovators our grandparents were. After all, isn't the Amateur Radio community supposed to be a place to foster those innovations, and if we can no longer think outside of the box, are the next generations going to do any better?

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] (W9NGC @ Dec. 06 2005,00:44)]Quote[/b] ]Holy maniacally mad monkies, Batman! The adrenaline, the anger, the flames, the ego-driven frantic typings....

http://www.astronomics.com/main/images/bruceavatar.gif
http://users.rowan.edu/~measep43/badday.gif

same guy?

[w7nb]

Quote[/b] ]
A lot of assumptions have to be made to come to the conclusion that an EchoLink user or enthusiast is an incompetent radio operator. Why can't we do both? Why can't I spend just as much of my time and energy investigating this mode as another would spend on a key and not enjoy the same respect?


My appologies if I made it sound as if folks who use echolink are sub par operators. #There is a good deal of knowledge required to rig a repeater with an echolink interface, or to set up a simplex node properly. #These are skills that are valuable, as it means the operator has learned about radio interfaces, control codes and all the other technical issues involved in making these things go.

Then again, the ability to pass the tech test and operate a computer with downloaded VOIP software is meaningless in the EMCOMM world.

I see too many folks who joined the amateur ranks specifically to do community service or EMCOMM work. #They then get hung up on technologies like echolinlk and don't advance their skills - they never learn the joys (and frustrations) of dealing with RF problems, bad grounds, stuck mics etc that are our world. #They never truly get "The bug". #They don't make the effort to get fully qualified to go out to a disaster site, or work in communications support for an emergency agency. #Then when we have a call out and they are not asked to participate, or are turned away as underqualified or underequiped they become disalusioned with the process and drift away from the hobby.

And we loose a member of our ranks.

So as you say - have fun! #Play with all the modes we have. #Develop the skills and love for our hobby that many have. #But PLEASE don't get hung up on a mode like echolink and think it's the answer to all the worlds EMCOMM problems. #What we are short of is competent operators who can work DC to daylight, are well equipped, willing to constantly train whether they are used ready or not, and above all love playing with all things RADIO.

Ok, and packet, and slow scan tv, and...

W7RAI
ARES/RACES District emergency Coordinator
Oregon Section

[kc8ycz]

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Dec. 06 2005,01:35)]kc8ycz,

I haven't taken the time to complement your group on the steps you are taking to advance your system. I looked over the website, well done. One of these days, I'll be moving away from dial-up and getting broadband myself, so I might ask to join your group soon. Anyway, just wanted to give a thumbs up.

Keep it up.
From all of us at The Missing Lynk System and The ARICC thanks and Happy Holidays to you and your family.

[kc8ycz]

Also to everyone, Technician, General, Extra and even the SWL's and YL's, Hope you have a joyous Holiday Season From all of us here at The Missing Lynk System and The ARICC.

[kb2wye]

this is an interesting topic and quite amusing as well. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[N7YA]

It is odd, its been relatively slim on angry posts...its kind of nice.

I say do whatever floats your boat, echolink, AM, cw, smoke signals...its all good. if it gives you any level of satisfaction, do it....and a big 'up yours' to whoever questions your operator abilities.

The "real OT's" were the guys who made contacts by jumping on a horse and riding for a week to say hi to someone....talk about LDE's. its just plain goofy to me to get all uptight about ham radio...do it until its no longer enjoyable, then do something else. theres a few QRZ.com regulars who could really use a break from the hobby/service/thing...the whole deal is really kicking them in the groin and its bringing everyone else down. but so far so good with this thread! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

But overall DXing is fun, playing with gear of any kind is fun...if it gets you off to make a contact using a computer, have at it. its what were doing right now, isnt it? more power to you!! as they once said...'Illegitimus non Carborundum".

73...N7YA

[kc8ycz]

Quote[/b] (ai4cb @ Dec. 06 2005,08:57)]The guys who are so high on echolink are not "advancing new technology".
I do not mean any disrespect out of this when I say who cares. To me it's not about technology, to me it's about emergency communications. When hurricane Katrina hit I did not find out until a week later that I had lost three family members. Yes it is sad but I have moved on. The point of this is about letting others know that there is more help out there when needed. Yes you can lose some of these means of commmunications when they go down but someone will still hear you. Just makes me feel good knowing this and it makes some of my family, who lived in New Orleans, feel better as well. Oh and by the way when they get back on there feet they are going back. They said and I quote "It's our home, our life"

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Dec. 05 2005,21:44)]Quote[/b] (ab0wr @ Dec. 05 2005,22:55)]Quote[/b] (N5USN @ Dec. 05 2005,18:36)]AB0WR wrote:

Folks,

I think the Baker Sierra is starting to get a little deep in this thread.

I've talked to several people that were in the hurricane disaster areas in the gulf. There was NO internet, no cell phones, etc. That means there was no Echolink. Those that had echolink running were not in the hard hit parts.
---------------------------------------------
I guess I had better call the State O.E.P. back and tell them that the people that CALLED from their trapped homes using cell phones were all CRANK calls. #I passed a few messages from these people trapped and waiting for rescue. #Please research your BS before you start to dish it out.

N5USN
Baton Rouge River Center Shelter
Passed info to the State O.E.P.
Then all of you that were there had better start getting all your stories together.

Talk to WA5BEN about what he experienced. I'm pretty sure he wasn't feeding anyone any bull.

Neither was ns5d in Washington Parish when he said (look it up in the November QST) that there was no phone service in the whole parish.

There may have been a few cell calls that got out, lord only knows through what propagation paths to what cell towers, but there was NO EMERGENCY COMMUNICATION being done through that media in those locations.

That's NOT B.S.

People who are say that internet and cell phones can be depended upon for emergency communications in those type of disasters are setting up people who take this for gospel for very bad consequences. If New Orleans was not a sufficient enough example for everyone in this United States then I just cannot imagine what kind of example it will take.

YOU depend upon the internet and Echolink. I'm not going to and neither is my family or friends. It's nice for what it does but dependence on it is just crazy.

mutter.......mutter..... phones dead but cable working....?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif


tim ab0wr
Ok, OM, go easy now, your getting histerical....


I happen to know and be a friend of N5USN, a former sailor and a fine upstanding gentleman. We both live in Louisiana, within VHF distance of Washington, Orleans, St, Tammany, and all those Parishes. We lived it, we didn't read about it. People were making cell phone calls from rooftops, fact. This internet infrastructure (I include cell networks in that general category) isn't as weak as you believe it is.

Heck, man, nobody wants to get rid of HF rigs, but an HF radio is just as useless as a computer when it is under 10 feet of water? Do you think the poor folks of New Orleans were walking around, looking for a neighbors Rohn Tower, scuba diving into the neighbors shack, and pulling up an HF rig to let dry in the sun? No, and most of the people left IN New Orleans were too poor to be hams. It was the people on the fringes, the people with generators, HF/UHF/VHF/EchoLink/cellphones/simaphore/tin cans/flare guns and whatever that promoted the lines of communication. Do you think the poor woman from St. Charles Ave. who lost everything she had cared that her message was transmitted via HF or CW? No, she was thankfull to whomever, wherever, and however the message got out that she needed help.

Nobody is holding a gun to your head, don't use EchoLink, I wouldn't want to hear this on it anyway.

As I predicted, the later in the evening it gets, the more irrational, incoherent, and paranoid the arguements become. Its 10:30 here, the alcohol should start talking soon enough. The temptation is getting to me to throw some mud, and my comments are getting more childish, but I don't delete them, because I can't delete what I tell a person to their face, and I'm no more afraid to post the truth as I call it here than I would be to say it in person.

Hang on to whatever mode you enjoy and whatever mode you can use for the greater good. If it be made of brass, more power to you. I'll continue to use my keyboard and life will go on.
Please, when the HF rigs are under water, where do you suppose the cell sites are? The last I knew they were not waterproofing the cell sites to depths of six feet or more.

The reason some of the cell calls worked were because of inland cell sites that were NOT destroyed. Again, the fact that some calls got out were flukes of propagation, not because of the robustness of the system.

"As I predicted, the later in the evening it gets, the more irrational, incoherent, and paranoid the arguements become."

This is just an easy way to dismiss arguments without addressing the facts. Did you really expect anyone to not recognize this? It's a freshman debate tactic.

The irrational claim here is that HF rigs didn't work because they were under water but that cell sites did work while they were underwater.

The irrational claim here is that cable worked while phones did not (how many people here have their cable modem and computers wired to an emergency generator? Raise your hands). How many people here still have old rotary dial phones in their house? If you don't then how can you say the phone system was dead? Does anyone on this thread know why this is a salient point?

I will say it again. There are a lot of cheerleaders on here posting hyperbole. Don't be surprised when someone questions it. Cheerleaders yelling "We're No. 1!!" sounds good to the partisans. But it's a claim that doesn't necessarily hold true at the end of the day.

tim ab0wr

[kc8ycz]

Quote[/b] (ab0wr @ Dec. 06 2005,09:22)]I will say it again. There are a lot of cheerleaders on here posting hyperbole. Don't be surprised when someone questions it. Cheerleaders yelling "We're No. 1!!" sounds good to the partisans. But it's a claim that doesn't necessarily hold true at the end of the day.
Read My last post. Not claiming No 1 at all. Hell we just started. Just making it known that we are out there. No disrepect meant. GO GO SISGOMBA GO TEAM. I can take it.

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] ]Please, when the HF rigs are under water, where do you suppose the cell sites are? The last I knew they were not waterproofing the cell sites to depths of six feet or more.

The reason some of the cell calls worked were because of inland cell sites that were NOT destroyed. Again, the fact that some calls got out were flukes of propagation, not because of the robustness of the system.

"As I predicted, the later in the evening it gets, the more irrational, incoherent, and paranoid the arguements become."

This is just an easy way to dismiss arguments without addressing the facts. Did you really expect anyone to not recognize this? It's a freshman debate tactic.

The irrational claim here is that HF rigs didn't work because they were under water but that cell sites did work while they were underwater.

The irrational claim here is that cable worked while phones did not (how many people here have their cable modem and computers wired to an emergency generator? Raise your hands). How many people here still have old rotary dial phones in their house? If you don't then how can you say the phone system was dead? Does anyone on this thread know why this is a salient point?

I will say it again. There are a lot of cheerleaders on here posting hyperbole. Don't be surprised when someone questions it. Cheerleaders yelling "We're No. 1!!" sounds good to the partisans. But it's a claim that doesn't necessarily hold true at the end of the day.


Nobody here is arguing with you, fella....Relax. We all know that HF is better. We don't want or need to claim the "number one" spot. I haven't seen anyone make that claim yet and I doubt seriously that I will....

I did not make any claim that cells in the hard hit areas were working, but I know the New Orleans Area, I drive to New Orleans all the time. The way it is geographically situated, there are plenty of built up areas surrounding it, with cell towers. It didn't take but a day or two for that infrastructure to start working, and people were using it.
......Repeating the mantra of how weak the infrastructure is in emergencies is not neccessary. We all know that. We don't claim it is bullet-proof. Noone does. And I myself don't have any investment or money in the phone or cable companies, so I'm not their cheerleader either. But believe you me, if I'm involved in an Emergency, and I just happen to have a 2 meter HT handy, and there isn't any local traffic, guess what, I'm linking up to EchoLink and making a call. And this brings me back to my earlier point: If most of you naysayers would SIMPLY learn how to use it, (Not neccessarily for fun or pleasure, but more for the sake of knowing how), and set up a link at your QTH, well, it would grow, and its usefullness would grow too. But as long as the population is limited by the bias against it, it won't. My own opinion is that it is a real shame for something useful such as EchoLink to not be taken advantage of simply because it is associated with this EVIL, INFERIOR, WORTHLESS technology we call the internet. PLEASE, spare me this arguement, because my 5 year old could think of better reason not to use it than this.

And, for anyone making an arguement that using VoIP isn't advancing new technology, well, neither is buying an MFJ paddle and an ICOM HF rig, but it doesn't stop me are you from buying it and using it. But new technologies don't happen without learning about and using the present ones. We didn't quantum leap from building campfires to the lightbulb, it took years of experimentation to make that happen......There are a lot of hams out there who are experimenting with integrating radios with software, using IP protocals and such.
Yes, IP existed back in the 70s, back when I was using my Commodore 64, but it has taken this long for the proccessors of our computers to advance far enough to create a tremendous network that works at the speed of light, passing data with ease. If people with this mentallity had been in control of that development, it might not have occured. But I am glad to say, pioneers using modes like packet radio actually contributed to the development of the internet, and the world is a much better place for it. Sure, I could live without my rig. I did it for a long time. The point is, advancement doesn't occur with dead ends, it occurs with exploring all the possibilities, letting things branch, and sometimes marrying the results of those different developments.
It is people like Graham Bell, Marconi, Einstein, Edison, and dare I say, Bill Gates, who think outside the box, learn about new things and study the old, experiment and tweak, and come up with the things that make our world better. I don't claim to be technically proficient enough to bring forth something new and great, but who knows, todays NCT in Wherever, USA might just be the guy who tommorrow invents a technology that we can only dream of today. HF teleporting or something, Science Fiction, maybe, but I guarantee when those types of advancements will be made, it won't be from people who have "can't", "shouldn't" wouldn't", "won't", or "never" in their vocabulary.
....as another poster pointed out, this topic has taken a good track with civility and such. I'm quite surprised that the bashers have been so mute, save for a modest few. Maybe its because nobody is arguing with them or disagreeing. I don't know who they are trying to argue with, because I am in agreement with 90% of what they say, save for the opinion that EchoLink has NO worth. But if metaphorically HF is worth $10 and EchoLink is worth $1.00, I'll take both, and I'll have $11 bucks in my pocket while the naysayers have only ten. That'll make me the wealthiest guy in the room. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[na4it]

One point that has been made I think can't be stressed enough!

Don't just get your Tech license and learn how to operate on a repeater to do EMCOMM...go all the way to Extra and at least learn about all modes, including the Echolink fashioned modes.

We have a ham here locally that is a General. He tried HF for awhile and hated it. He now operates 2 APRS stations at a time, and is about to put up a wide area digi. And right now, he probably knows more about APRS and how to make it work than anyone in the area.

A few days ago, we participated in a drill. The same guy was one of the NCS ops passing traffic, operating HF, and operating APRS!

He still knows how to do the other stuff to, he just prefers APRS.

Nothing at all wrong with it.

And in another internet ham radio post far far away, another good point has been brought up...don't just buy a 2M handy talkie and expect it to do everything. I wish I had know $1000 of dollars ago I could buy a HF/VHF/UHF all mode rig (mine is a 706MKIIG) and had the fun I am having now. Sure, a tech can't use the HF. But he can do SSB, Voice, and Digital on VHF/UHF, and listen to HF. There is sooo much more to ham radio than repeaters. (And I enjoy BUILDING repeaters!)

Knowldege is good. Ingnorance and stubborness kills!

[WP4KTF]

I remember the first time I visited www.qrz.com I said to myself, "Self, what a great site. You can find hams' personal info, addresses for QSL cards and....WOW, LOOK, even many posts containing lots of good info about ham radio. Neat!" hehe....that was a few years back.

These days I find myself reading the first post, the first 2-3 responses and then it all quickly turns into useless debates that go on forever, many of them naively associating a person's level of expertise and know-how with their ham class license. Heck, sometimes it doesn't even take but one response for it all to go downhill quickly. I'd be tempted to say there even is a regular stream of bashers, canned responses stored in their "My Documents" folder, ready to explode at a moment's notice.

Yes, I guess I do have a choice, as one ol' timer recently suggested... I either have to wade and sift through tons of useless debates spouting the above mentioned, commonly shared belief, or, as the ol' timer suggested, not visit your (previously thought of as a) ham site at all..."turn the computer off"? (Tnx MVP for your deeply appreciated words of wisdom, highly regarded of course, as they are coming from a long time ham! X-( However, it is sad that by running away, I will definitely miss out on good, down to earth, bonafide ham talk that 2-3 thoughtful souls will post.

I do offer a suggestion....why not change the name of the website to "www.wasteyourtimeonuselessdebatesremotelyreferenci nghamradio.com" or something along those lines? Therefore, future hams will not be mislead as I was in the beginning, believing this (political?) site to be a great, ham reference info site just because it has a Q signal in its name. Just a thought...

"Okay Jorge, time to get away from QRZ.com for another 3-4 months. You know that with knowledgeable hams running the show and some other experienced hams wanting to share their wealth, you're bound to find something interesting and continue to learn a thing or two about ham radio. Maybe they'll be talking about something worthwhile by then..."

Darn, I just wasted another 10 minutes on some useless debate...darn!!

Siete tres
WP4KTF
San Antonio, Texas
"I ain't from here pardner, but...you know the rest!"
http://www.qrz.com/HP1XZQ

[KX4SAM]

HAM RADIO.

Not HAM INTERNET.

Yahoo has chat rooms, with no test!

[n9vo]

Unless I'm mistaken, we all may be jumping the gun on the young NCT here. He probably is well intentioned and just trying to find his niche in the ham community. If you look at the web site for his "two groups which combined for the strategic reasons", you will see the one only has 18 members. That is unless the website is incorrect. The missing lynk probably has even less. Not too much of a threat to our way of life on the bands. Let them play on the repeaters all they want. Hopefully they will at some point see the light and upgrade. Then they can still play repeaters and use HF too! That really falls into the "use all means" theory. If you truly believe that, then dont be restricted to NCT modes. Do it all!

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] (n9vo @ Dec. 06 2005,11:37)]Unless I'm mistaken, we all may be jumping the gun on the young NCT here. He probably is well intentioned and just trying to find his niche in the ham community. If you look at the web site for his "two groups which combined for the strategic reasons", you will see the one only has 18 members. That is unless the website is incorrect. The missing lynk probably has even less. Not too much of a threat to our way of life on the bands. Let them play on the repeaters all they want. Hopefully they will at some point see the light and upgrade. Then they can still play repeaters and use HF too! That really falls into the "use all means" theory. If you truly believe that, then dont be restricted to NCT modes. Do it all!

This is what most of us want, the freedom to participate in ham radio, without criticism for our likes and dislikes, and be Elemered or incouraged to learn about and use the other modes and privelages. Personally, I am still young, and my family comes FIRST (Though my wife might percieve it a little differently.) I don't spend a whole lot of time transmitting, sometimes I'm just content to listen, so I can sit in the living room with my family, and turn the volume low on the HT, and listen to QSOs. Sometimes I do that with EchoLink, just log into a Conference server and listen. Since my wife objects to a big HF rig on the coffee table, listening to FM phone through my RF-link can be interesting and not an annoyance to her. The truth of the matter is, I don't walk around with a T-shirt on that proclaims "I LOVE EchoLink", and you'll only see my link up ocassionally. But I would like to feel I have the right to use my privelages in the manner I see fit, and not be labeled and shunned. Truthfully, I am in no hurry, I'm going to enjoy my privelages as I have them to the fullest I can afford, and if I have time to really commit to le