Rotten Gentlemen

[w5alt]

Reprinted with permission from The Roundtable, December 2005, Society for the Preservation of Amateur Radio.

Rotten Gentlemen
by Tired Old Man

Musings on the state of amateur radio

As I sit in my overstuffed leather chair puffing on the old pipe, and staring into a hearty fire going in the fireplace (the fingers of winter are soon upon us), I am thinking of late about the "gentlemen" of our service. Last evening, no doubt as a result of much too late a supper, I began to dream of a party of impeccably dressed gentlemen (and elegant ladies) flawlessly groomed and completely mannered in all ways. In my vision, the well-mannered gentry gathered in small groups engaged in intelligent conversation, each waiting for a proper turn to express a well considered opinion. Without warning, a door burst open and a small man made entry into the room. He was loud, crass, and foul in voice and deportment. The elegance and civility of the occasion began to unravel as many gentlemen were compelled to defend the gathering against the interloper. Soon there was no enjoyment for anyone as voices became loud, and threats of violence abounded. There is little doubt that for some participants, the consumption of alcohol encumbers better judgment to a clear degree of certainty.

Presently as I stare into the fire, pipe smoke circling in the air above my grey hair, I ponder the fate of "Gentlemen's Agreements" in Amateur Radio. Being of simple mind, it is evident that in order to have a Gentleman's Agreement, we must have "gentlemen" and we must have "agreement". I cannot emphasize in words with enough punch to properly express the utter lack of both in our ranks. Like the luckless gentlemen in my unfortunate and transparent dream, a good party for all quickly descended the ladder of taste into the mud of swine.

Lack of Gentlemen. #For what purpose have some men decided upon a course of action when dealing with Amateur Radio as to expose the majority of their backside to humanity while so engaged? It reminds me of a chap with whom I was raised named Carl. Carl was a tall and handsome young chap with outward appearances that drove young ladies mad, and the extensive vocabulary of an angry longshoreman. Every other word from Carl's mouth was inappropriate for whatever situation he was so applied. He had absolutely no compunction about airing the most sordid details of his relationship with other human beings to any luckless soul who would listen. A rather popular and witty young lady in our community once likened Carl to an exquisite hollow porcelain statue of Michelangelo’s David filled to the top with an odorous cow pie. Of course, Carl had no lack of followers and imitators. My father once said that if a hundred people were to witness a train run over a small child playing on the railroad tracks, at lease one in the bunch would consider it highly humorous. I was forced to conclude that Carl attracted these fellows like flies to a chicken coop.

Why good Amateurs would stand by and allow their names and reputations be sullied by partaking in a crass conversation on the air is beyond me. Much like the six year old boy who discovers the novelty of a bad word and upon the school playground, must put it into action at every possible moment. Too, the Amateur bore must go for some unseen shock factor or undiscovered metric of manhood by the use of such nomenclature. Conversely, a gentleman will go out of his way to avoid being part of anything unsavory on the air. He also is a master at entering a situation that he did not create and making the best of it.

Lack of Agreement. #I once knew a character named Fred (names mentioned are fictitious for purposes that will all too soon be obvious). Fred had several endearing qualities such as knowing every scrap of everything there was to possibly know about everything in the universe. According to Fred, God had created the world in 7 days but had gotten it all wrong. There was no conversation heard upon the air that was off limits to Fred's interjection of corrective thought. If you were a fisherman, a sea lawyer, a sponge diver or a mermaid, Fred knew your trade better than you could possibly ever know it regardless that he was unable to swim. Central to Fred's "tick" of character was never being able to agree with anyone on any subject. One Saturday a luckless chap named Eddie was cornered on the air by the searing logic of Fred. Eddie, when given the choice of agreeing with Fred or having to speak to him for one microsecond more on the air, decided on capitulation.

The next day, Sunday, Eddie was heard on the air being chastised by Fred again. Upon closer listening, Eddie was using the information obtained from Fred the day before making a point to another Amateur. Fred was now taking issue with Eddie's point, the very point he had made himself the day before. It was finally concluded by many that Fred must like the sound of his own voice, or perhaps he had been denied some ice cream cone or teddy bear from his childhood. Reluctantly I must conclude from much I observe on Amateur Radio that Fred is from a rather large family of brothers who value their own opinion over others.

It does not take the astute reasoning powers of Sherlock Holmes to conclude that a man without gentlemanly bearing and with the inability to reach an agreement on any subject is not good Amateur material. If any group of mankind (which includes women) is to exist for any extended time, some basic agreements must be reached. If the group involved is made up of men so unable to politely accept their lot and make the best of it, the only agreement will be that many in the group are bitter about the situation.

Gentlemen's Agreements. #Central to the recipe of gentlemen's agreements is a healthy dollop of trust, mixed with a pinch of patience and equal parts of good nature and retribution. Yes, I am suggesting retribution for anyone that seeks to solicit the agreement of gentlemen to an ill conceived or selfish and unsavory plan. These braggarts should be sought out and set upon by all good Amateurs with a mahogany walking cane. It is if some of our brothers are trapped in a relativity circle wherein they measure the merits of a thief against a murderer and decide that based on relativity the thief is of high moral standing. The idea that comes into play, gentlemen, is if you are looking in a mirror and do not like what your visage portrays, then the real remedy is to fix yourself and not drag an ax murderer in front of the mirror with you so you do not appear to be comparatively as bad.

Who you are as a person has no dependence on anyone else but yourself. Likewise your demeanor upon the air waves and as measure of your gentlemanly ways depends on you alone. There is but one truism that applies in this case. The only person you can truly change is yourself. There will be no agreements written on paper or otherwise in Amateur Radio worth a grain of salt until this one simple lesson is remembered.

[KQ6XA]

Quote[/b] (w5alt @ Nov. 23 2005,18:32)]Rotten Gentlemen
" If any group of mankind (which includes women) is to exist for any extended time, some basic agreements must be reached."
Thanks for including the other 52% of the population (albeit parenthetically).
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Bonnie KQ6XA

[k0bay]

Quote[/b] (w5alt @ Nov. 23 2005,18:32)]...It was finally concluded by many that Fred must like the sound of his own voice...
And some may choose to conclude your desire to hear (see, read, etc.) your own keystrokes? #(This, of course, is in jest.)

You present an interesting opinion.

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (KQ6XA @ Nov. 29 2005,10:20)]Quote[/b] (w5alt @ Nov. 23 2005,18:32)]Rotten Gentlemen
" If any group of mankind (which includes women) is to exist for any extended time, some basic agreements must be reached."
Thanks for including the other 52% of the population (albeit parenthetically).
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Bonnie KQ6XA
Yep,--the "politically correct" agenda`s have found
their way in ham radio,--should this be a "big surpise"?
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # 73, K1MVP http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[KJ4TQ]

What N1QLZ sed. I was listening on 14.070 during the CW contest and heard many contesters, running what had to be a full KW blasting away over the top of the PSK crowd most of whom were running mostly 50 watts or less. And the RTTY group as well. What a bunch of lids and clowns these few contesters were!

[AE4ZV]

These fellows aren't rotten at all, my friend. In fact, they should be praised! You see, constitutional freedom of speech gives them the right to say such things whenever and wherever they please. It just doesn't matter who may be offended, corrupted, made to feel uncomfortable, etc. To not treat us all to their vocal flatulence would be downright unpatriotic. #

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[KA2LIM]

N1QLZ wrote:
I am basicly on digiatal ham,, more on PSK than anywhere else. I use one lousey freq. on each band. and the coders will come right on top of me on 14.070, full power and call cq, completely ruining it for me and who ever I was talking to.

So very true, have experienced it myself, not only this past weekend, but many times as I endevor to enjoy the operation of BPSK.

Also I totatly agree about being a Gentleman first, ie: set the example. When you find yourself being cornered by one of these " less than desirable individual's", remember the button or knob on you transicever that is labeled (power) and put it in the "off" position. Then go have a piece of pie and a cup of coffee.

Ken
KA2LIM

[KI4BNC]

I mostly run ssb when I am not on vhf or
LISTENING as I tend to do alot of.I have heard some pretty colorful language,some really agressive behavior and some unworthy rascial slurrs...
none of which need to be in amateur radio.
I do not participate in this activity nor do I approve of it.I do how ever abbhor politically correctness as I see it as the stepping stone to slowly choke what little life the freedom of speech amendment has left.But there are ways to get your point across without being:
rude
crude
barbaric
intimidating
socially obnoxious
distasteful
and vulgar
and some other colorful adjectives that plum evade me at the time.I think that everyone who holds an amateur radio liscense should read this.
in the quest to keep what we have been given the priveledge of having in amateur radio...There are those of US(as a collective whole) who are not doing a very good job of fighting to keep it.
as I have said before:
just the ravings of a slightly dain bramaged hamster.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
also if anyone IS offended by this post,maybe you should
check to see which group you fall into,and think carefully
before replying.
I did.

[wa9cwx]

Uuuuuuhhhh...???
Not sure of the points made by the PSK folks here.

Have you ever heard PSK, or RTTY in what is traditionaly held as the CW sub band during TTY contests....Like down below 7030, etc ?

Like, ELIMINATING the CW qrp frequency of 7040, and the mobile freq of 7030. ?

As one poor soul once said, "Can't we all get along" ?

This is hardly a one sided issue.

[KI4BNC]

Quote[/b] (kb7uxe @ Nov. 29 2005,14:51)]Musta been a buch of punk hamsters...
gee wuts the world comming to..
10-fer gud buddy, QSL.....
ROFLOL!!!
GOOD ONE!
That was sooooo funny I had to make it into a background...
I hope noone here at work is offended by it.(ntic)
no,I went through my "punk" phase...
it was incredibly disturbing...
That's 10 minutes I hope to never have to relive.
it was also before I evolved into a HAMster.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
-EDITED-:
yeah-had to edit this one when I made a startling discovery.those are not hamsters...
they are (good chance I am wrong)prarie dogs!
(kept it as a background though)

[W8DL]

I have been a ham for 55 years and no longer operate phone on the HF bands because there are very few "Gentelmen" left on the HF sideband frequencies. Many operators found on HF sidband are rude / crude and certainly do not set a very high standard for the public to hear. This happens very rarely on CW so that is where I choose to operate.

73's Don W8DL

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (W8DL @ Nov. 29 2005,16:12)]I have been a ham for 55 years and no longer operate phone on the HF bands because there are very few "Gentelmen" left on the HF sideband frequencies. Many operators found on HF sidband are rude / crude and certainly do not set a very high standard for the public to hear. This happens very rarely on CW so that is where I choose to operate.

73's Don W8DL
In my 50th year. I find much the same. The gate was opened in 1987 or so, when the FCC stopped testing. The results are on the air now with their "bought" licenses.

And those are the "Elmers" of the new crop!

Ha!

[kd5fgz]

I Love the picture !!! Can you imagine a bunch of 70 or 80 year old Spark Gappers after looking at the picture.
We are already loooosing our Freedom of Speech. In effect " The Hate Crime Bill " . What's next?? Our freedom to walk in the woods and PEEEE on a Treeee???

[nf0a]

Quote[/b] (w5alt @ Nov. 23 2005,18:32)]Reprinted with permission from The Roundtable, December 2005, Society for the Preservation of Amateur Radio.

Rotten Gentlemen
by Tired Old Man

Musings on the state of amateur radio

As I sit in my overstuffed leather chair puffing on the old pipe, and staring into a hearty fire going in the fireplace (the fingers of winter are soon upon us), I am thinking of late about the "gentlemen" of our service. Last evening, no doubt as a result of much too late a supper, I began to dream of a party of impeccably dressed gentlemen (and elegant ladies) flawlessly groomed and completely mannered in all ways. In my vision, the well-mannered gentry gathered in small groups engaged in intelligent conversation, each waiting for a proper turn to express a well considered opinion. Without warning, a door burst open and a small man made entry into the room. He was loud, crass, and foul in voice and deportment. The elegance and civility of the occasion began to unravel as many gentlemen were compelled to defend the gathering against the interloper. Soon there was no enjoyment for anyone as voices became loud, and threats of violence abounded. There is little doubt that for some participants, the consumption of alcohol encumbers better judgment to a clear degree of certainty.

Presently as I stare into the fire, pipe smoke circling in the air above my grey hair, I ponder the fate of "Gentlemen's Agreements" in Amateur Radio. Being of simple mind, it is evident that in order to have a Gentleman's Agreement, we must have "gentlemen" and we must have "agreement". I cannot emphasize in words with enough punch to properly express the utter lack of both in our ranks. Like the luckless gentlemen in my unfortunate and transparent dream, a good party for all quickly descended the ladder of taste into the mud of swine.

Lack of Gentlemen. #For what purpose have some men decided upon a course of action when dealing with Amateur Radio as to expose the majority of their backside to humanity while so engaged? It reminds me of a chap with whom I was raised named Carl. Carl was a tall and handsome young chap with outward appearances that drove young ladies mad, and the extensive vocabulary of an angry longshoreman. Every other word from Carl's mouth was inappropriate for whatever situation he was so applied. He had absolutely no compunction about airing the most sordid details of his relationship with other human beings to any luckless soul who would listen. A rather popular and witty young lady in our community once likened Carl to an exquisite hollow porcelain statue of Michelangelo’s David filled to the top with an odorous cow pie. Of course, Carl had no lack of followers and imitators. My father once said that if a hundred people were to witness a train run over a small child playing on the railroad tracks, at lease one in the bunch would consider it highly humorous. I was forced to conclude that Carl attracted these fellows like flies to a chicken coop.

Why good Amateurs would stand by and allow their names and reputations be sullied by partaking in a crass conversation on the air is beyond me. Much like the six year old boy who discovers the novelty of a bad word and upon the school playground, must put it into action at every possible moment. Too, the Amateur bore must go for some unseen shock factor or undiscovered metric of manhood by the use of such nomenclature. Conversely, a gentleman will go out of his way to avoid being part of anything unsavory on the air. He also is a master at entering a situation that he did not create and making the best of it.

Lack of Agreement. #I once knew a character named Fred (names mentioned are fictitious for purposes that will all too soon be obvious). Fred had several endearing qualities such as knowing every scrap of everything there was to possibly know about everything in the universe. According to Fred, God had created the world in 7 days but had gotten it all wrong. There was no conversation heard upon the air that was off limits to Fred's interjection of corrective thought. If you were a fisherman, a sea lawyer, a sponge diver or a mermaid, Fred knew your trade better than you could possibly ever know it regardless that he was unable to swim. Central to Fred's "tick" of character was never being able to agree with anyone on any subject. One Saturday a luckless chap named Eddie was cornered on the air by the searing logic of Fred. Eddie, when given the choice of agreeing with Fred or having to speak to him for one microsecond more on the air, decided on capitulation.

The next day, Sunday, Eddie was heard on the air being chastised by Fred again. Upon closer listening, Eddie was using the information obtained from Fred the day before making a point to another Amateur. Fred was now taking issue with Eddie's point, the very point he had made himself the day before. It was finally concluded by many that Fred must like the sound of his own voice, or perhaps he had been denied some ice cream cone or teddy bear from his childhood. Reluctantly I must conclude from much I observe on Amateur Radio that Fred is from a rather large family of brothers who value their own opinion over others.

It does not take the astute reasoning powers of Sherlock Holmes to conclude that a man without gentlemanly bearing and with the inability to reach an agreement on any subject is not good Amateur material. If any group of mankind (which includes women) is to exist for any extended time, some basic agreements must be reached. If the group involved is made up of men so unable to politely accept their lot and make the best of it, the only agreement will be that many in the group are bitter about the situation.

Gentlemen's Agreements. #Central to the recipe of gentlemen's agreements is a healthy dollop of trust, mixed with a pinch of patience and equal parts of good nature and retribution. Yes, I am suggesting retribution for anyone that seeks to solicit the agreement of gentlemen to an ill conceived or selfish and unsavory plan. These braggarts should be sought out and set upon by all good Amateurs with a mahogany walking cane. It is if some of our brothers are trapped in a relativity circle wherein they measure the merits of a thief against a murderer and decide that based on relativity the thief is of high moral standing. The idea that comes into play, gentlemen, is if you are looking in a mirror and do not like what your visage portrays, then the real remedy is to fix yourself and not drag an ax murderer in front of the mirror with you so you do not appear to be comparatively as bad.

Who you are as a person has no dependence on anyone else but yourself. Likewise your demeanor upon the air waves and as measure of your gentlemanly ways depends on you alone. There is but one truism that applies in this case. The only person you can truly change is yourself. There will be no agreements written on paper or otherwise in Amateur Radio worth a grain of salt until this one simple lesson is remembered.
Unfortunetly the sign of the time we live in...Decadence,lack of eductaion on the fine art of manners and erosion of all the good old fashion values everyone calls old fashioned today...

[k5okc]

Quote[/b] (KQ6XA @ Nov. 29 2005,05:20)]Quote[/b] (w5alt @ Nov. 23 2005,18:32)]Rotten Gentlemen
" If any group of mankind (which includes women) is to exist for any extended time, some basic agreements must be reached."
Thanks for including the other 52% of the population (albeit parenthetically).
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Bonnie KQ6XA
and to top it off--a Minority specified by Congress :-)

[KI4BNC]

Quote[/b] (kb7uxe @ Nov. 29 2005,17:36)]Your not discrimnating agenst prarie dogs are you???
Where's Jessie when ya need him....
discriminating against prairie dogs(although marmots are much more trusting and alot cuter)?
no not against prairie dogs.I like chipmunks(no not the little homowhatever cartoon ones either)
I like squirrels,marmots and mice;especially fond of rats...AND cats.I think that under the right conditions that they can live together in harmony.
anyways back to the topic at hand...
Have not done any digital yet,worked some good dx on 15 or 20m(shotty memory)I forget which.and was really impressed that my current hf rig cost alot less than the last CHILDRENS BAND radio I bought.and that I seemed to get alot more for my money:
cb-26.965mhz+/- ?kcs to27.405(roughly-then the "freeband-ok for the sake of the freebanders we can say26-27.975){3kcs to keep away from 10m cw.}
still less than 2 mhz.
hf-1.8mhz-29.7mhz(roughly/without putting in all the band plans.still a heck of alot more you can do with hf.
that is not even including 6m/vhf/uhf/shf and so on and so forth.
NOW:is it worth it not to hear charlie chickenbander looking for commercial company on a lonely Sat.night?
youbetcha!
as a side note:whenever I AM on hf having a qso I do try to stay 3 kcs away from other qsos and not infringe on any other possible places I could cause interference.
just trying to act like a gentleman.
NOW:All you spelling/grammaticalerrorhuntingfreaks:
If you want to pound sand about spelling,gramatical errors,proper sentence structure or anything else one might learn in an ENGLISH class then start a new thread!
otherwise it is alot easier to muddle my way through a post that stays on topic than one that jumps around.
















# # # # # # # # # # # # # flame away!
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif














(yeah I know...longwinded)

[KD8CEE]

Just read the tag line. Pretty much says it all. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (KQ6XA @ Nov. 29 2005,10:20)]Quote[/b] (w5alt @ Nov. 23 2005,18:32)]Rotten Gentlemen
" If any group of mankind (which includes women) is to exist for any extended time, some basic agreements must be reached."
Thanks for including the other 52% of the population (albeit parenthetically).
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Bonnie KQ6XA
The word "mankind" has always included women. Just like "chairman", "manned" (as in manned mission) and quite a few more.

[KI4BNC]

Quote[/b] (KD8CEE @ Nov. 29 2005,19:17)]Just read the tag line. Pretty much says it all. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
"tag line"?
ok...new one on me.
what is it?

[VE2ITZ]

thanks all for the encouragement and enlightment.

Cheers and 73 de VE2ITZ

[ve7sdx]

Quote[/b] (kb7uxe @ Nov. 29 2005,14:51)]Musta been a buch of punk hamsters...
gee wuts the world comming to..
10-fer gud buddy, QSL.....
Thems aint no Hamsters Mate, thems prairie dogs.

[k9ni]

Prarie dogs are important. Black footed ferrets eat them. The more prarie dogs we have the less chance of black footed ferrets becoming extinct.

I'm sure you could feed the little weasels hamsters as well. Any rodent in a storm...

[k9ni]

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Nov. 29 2005,19:20)]Quote[/b] (KQ6XA @ Nov. 29 2005,10:20)]Quote[/b] (w5alt @ Nov. 23 2005,18:32)]Rotten Gentlemen
" If any group of mankind (which includes women) is to exist for any extended time, some basic agreements must be reached."
Thanks for including the other 52% of the population (albeit parenthetically).
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Bonnie KQ6XA
The word "mankind" has always included women. Just like "chairman", "manned" (as in manned mission) and quite a few more.
Thank you so much for pointing out that the English language has been inherently sexist for a long time. There is nothing wrong with usng chairperson, is there? Humankind?

Oh, and go ahead, dismiss me as "PC". Someone will. That's a great way of dismissing someone without even trying to understand where they are coming from.

Bonnie had a point, and a very good one.

[K1HAH]

It reminds me of the day I called CQ and was told we don't do that anymore (80 meters) was called sonny and told to move on until I got some time under my belt. The person speaking at that time was a ham for 10 years and probably knew nothing about radio etiquite.... I earned the title of OM sometime in the late 50's... all hobbies have fools, we seem to suffer too many... any some want to do away with our basic language?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
K1HAH John Callaghan

[k9ni]

Quote[/b] (K1HAH @ Nov. 29 2005,22:51)]It reminds me of the day I called CQ and was told we don't do that anymore (80 meters) was called sonny and told to move on until I got some time under my belt. The person speaking at that time was a ham for 10 years and probably knew nothing about radio etiquite.... I earned the title of OM sometime in the late 50's... all hobbies have fools, we seem to suffer too many... any some want to do away with our basic language?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
K1HAH John Callaghan
"Do away with out basic language"? You have to be joking. Anyone who has studied linguistics knows that languages are living things. They evolve and change as society changes. We don't speak the English of Chaucer or Shakespeare. We don't speak English the way Washington or Jefferson did. Watch a 50 year old film and you will see that our language has evolved in that time as well.

Using terms like "chairman" is perpetuating an anachronism from a time when women were excluded from leadership roles. The chair always was a man. Society has changed for the better and the language can and should change with it. The fact is that is already has changed in this way. Chairperson is widely used and accepted.

You can live in the past and perpetuate the injustice of the past, or at least the memory of that injustice, or you can live in the present and build a better future. Change is good.

[K8ERV]

Quote[/b] (k7vo @ Nov. 29 2005,22:35)]#Any rodent in a storm...
Thatsa good one !!

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

[G8ADD]

Quote[/b] (k7vo @ Nov. 29 2005,23:24)]Quote[/b] (K1HAH @ Nov. 29 2005,22:51)]It reminds me of the day I called CQ and was told we don't do that anymore (80 meters) was called sonny and told to move on until I got some time under my belt. The person speaking at that time was a ham for 10 years and probably knew nothing about radio etiquite.... I earned the title of OM sometime in the late 50's... all hobbies have fools, we seem to suffer too many... any some want to do away with our basic language?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
K1HAH John Callaghan
"Do away with out basic language"? #You have to be joking. #Anyone who has studied linguistics knows that languages are living things. #They evolve and change as society changes. #We don't speak the English of Chaucer or Shakespeare. #We don't speak English the way Washington or Jefferson did. #Watch a 50 year old film and you will see that our language has evolved in that time as well.

Using terms like "chairman" is perpetuating an anachronism from a time when women were excluded from leadership roles. #The chair always was a man. #Society has changed for the better and the language can and should change with it. #The fact is that is already has changed in this way. #Chairperson is widely used and accepted.

You can live in the past and perpetuate the injustice of the past, or at least the memory of that injustice, or you can live in the present and build a better future. #Change is good.
"Society has changed for the better"? Surely the burden of the opening sermon is that society may have changed but it is not for the better. Do you disagree with him?

I was taught that "the masculine subsumes the feminine", hence chairman. If society has generally decided to ditch that rule then fair enough, but nobody asked me and I doubt that anybody asked you, either. My objection to many of these PC alterations is twofold. Firstly too many of the innovations are overlong and decidedly ugly. "Chairperson" is rather lumpy and has an extra syllable. Whats wrong with "Chair", a nice shortening in the modern idiom? My other objection is that the more strident members of the sisterhood are so busy showering us with their paranoic ravings and inverted sexism that they seem to be trying to impose a matriarchy on us. They are not trying to create a more just society, they are trying to get revenge for what they perceive as centuries of injustice. I was brought up to respect women, to treat them courteously and even to believe that a little old-fashioned gallantry never goes amiss. I was certainly NEVER taught that they were inferior. Is all that to be thrown away, too?

Bonnie's point that women are in the majority needs a little more examination. Why are they in the majority? Well, they live several years longer than men. In fact the longevity figures if taken at face value suggest that the figure should be more than 52%. Dammit, in the face of such a huge natural injustice like that, some of the feminist complaints seem trivial. Come on, men, wouldn't you all like an extra seven years of life?

If change is good, a manifestly ropy assertion, then why did this thread start with a threnody for older ways?

73

Brian G8ADD

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (VE2ITZ @ Nov. 29 2005,19:29)]I just find it a shame that this all happens in the time when I start doing ham radio.

I have been a ham operator for 8 months now, and to my surprise I realized the harsh reality on the first couple of contacts I had on local 2 meter repeater .

There was this fellow that instead of being a gentleman and understanding; was criticizing the way I was signing off!

He said to me in a condescending and rude way:

It is either: "over" or "out", but not: "over and out"!

I came back to him and had to tell him that maybe he should be more understanding since I was a newbie in the business.


Whatever happened to the "helpful, guiding and human" aspect of this "more experienced operator"?


So much for my "fun experience" on two meters and the local scene! (Might as well just hang around on 11 meters and talk to the local buddies on the c.b. band!)

And then to my surprise: I hear these two operators fighting over the frequency. And they are cursing and putting the full watts to see who can drown the other up!

I tought this only happened on the c.b. band!

And then all this operators whose main and only task is to collect as many contacts as possible to "fill their walls with awards".

They barely have any time to say "73" when they are calling "qrz" again!

(Pretty much sound like machines on full production to me!)

I rather be speaking to a voice recorder over and over!


"Welcome to ham radio"


If i analyze this whole thing; i think it has all to do with the reflection of our own society.

What type of values morals and ethics people now live by?

Everyone is out there to get each other up! Forget the sense of community and spiritual values.....

It is that whole thing of "Me, myself and I"

And the silliest thing of all is that; even though people keep living by these standards; people just keep getting hurt!

Ignorance is the root of all suffering.


Anyways if there are any real human and humane operators out there; I am letting you know that I am one of those; and you can give me a shout on 20 meters and I will gladly have a good chat on the waves!

As for the message posted by the wonderful "YL" KQ6XA; I totally agree that women have to be included in this ham business stuff.



Cheers all and 73!

Jah Bless from VE2ITZ http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Sometimes people try to jolt you to see how you take it. Once I got over the First Class Radiotelephone/General Radiotelephone license "I know everything" mindset, the average Amateur got alot smarter to me. The problem was not theirs, but mine.

I suggest you chalk it up to paying your dues and eventually your good attitude and growing knowledge will earn you the respect you seek.

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (k7vo @ Nov. 29 2005,22:39)]Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Nov. 29 2005,19:20)]Quote[/b] (KQ6XA @ Nov. 29 2005,10:20)]Quote[/b] (w5alt @ Nov. 23 2005,18:32)]Rotten Gentlemen
" If any group of mankind (which includes women) is to exist for any extended time, some basic agreements must be reached."
Thanks for including the other 52% of the population (albeit parenthetically).
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Bonnie KQ6XA
The word "mankind" has always included women. Just like "chairman", "manned" (as in manned mission) and quite a few more.
Thank you so much for pointing out that the English language has been inherently sexist for a long time. There is nothing wrong with usng chairperson, is there? Humankind?

Oh, and go ahead, dismiss me as "PC". Someone will. That's a great way of dismissing someone without even trying to understand where they are coming from.

Bonnie had a point, and a very good one.
I would suggest that the triviality of getting your knickers in a knot over this is silly. Yes, language is by definition sexist. Like calling ships "she" and "her". We're so preoccupied with PC that we're losing the larger war. How we treat other people. We accept things like "lies" in every day conversation as clever. We accept mediocrity and ignorance as fashionable. Lying is even showing up in TV commercials as "cute". Notice how many commercials have women hitting men. Turn the tables and we'd have a PC crisis on our hands! Or how many spots have men depicted as idiots next to a "clever" woman.

Equality implies "equal". If you want to wad your tidy-whities, try standing up for truth and equality. Language will follow suite.

Thanks for listening!

[K8AG]

Beware that gentile attitudes do not give way to self absorption. Disruption and dissent has its place. It cannot be stifled, so it must be embraced.

Better a good man than a gentleman.

[2E0GYD]

Quote[/b] (KJ4TQ @ Nov. 29 2005,20:01)]I was listening on 14.070 during the CW contest and heard many contesters, running what had to be a full KW blasting away over the top of the PSK crowd most of whom were running mostly 50 watts or less. And the RTTY group as well. What a bunch of lids and clowns these few contesters were!
its the same with the ssb contest, wanted to do some leasurly qso on 40 m psk31, but i was denied that right as a licenced ham by idiots going CQ CONTEST... one idiot of a station was so into the cw band he was near to the begining of the band, and again during the cw contest, 40 m psk31 unusable.

for christ sakes there is only one frequency for psk31 on each band and around 90% of the band for cw and around 50% of the band for ssb.

the stations that break the gentlemens agrement should be disqualified.

ssb should be in the ssb part, cw should be in the cw part(or ssb if there isnt room in the cw part) and data should be in the data part.

stick with these rules then hams can use their licence

73 de Rick 2E0GYD

[K2WH]

I'm starting to think posts like this is one of the major reasons the bands are sparsely populated and hams are doing more typing then transmitting. #Reading the introduction of this posting, is like the beginning of a mystery novel.

Look at the time it took to put this little ditty together. #Add the extra time all the respondents are putting in with comments on the original posting. #I truly believe the internet is destroying ham radio in many insidious ways including such things as Echolink, VOIP, Video Conferencing and yes even Eham and QRZ.COM. #As one ham put it, QRZ.COM has become the water cooler of the internet and ham radio.

We go on these sites with the same anticipation one used to have when checking the propagation conditions into South Africa or Europe. #Now we boot up and see whats interesting on Eham or QRZ.COM.

Gentlemen, we (myself included) are spending way to much time sitting down and thinking about how to be an author so we can post an entertaining and witty article on QRZ.COM. #We are not entertainers, we are ham radio operators. #Lets get back on track instead of producing literary messages of meaningless drivel in an attempt to enlighten us all. #Including what I just wrote.

K2WH

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (K8AG @ Nov. 30 2005,10:12)]Beware that gentile attitudes do not give way to self absorption. Disruption and dissent has its place. It cannot be stifled, so it must be embraced.

Better a good man than a gentleman.
And many folks are neither. You assume because someone is crass they are protesting? What? Civility? LOL! I'd bet there is more self absorbtion where there is a lack of civility than the other way around.

[kg4wkl]

If everyone would treat others the way they want to be treated wouldnt the world be a wonderful place, but then hams wouldnt have anything to gripe about.:D

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (VE2ITZ @ Nov. 29 2005,19:29)]Anyways if there are any real human and humane operators out there; I am letting you know that I am one of those; and you can give me a shout on 20 meters and I will gladly have a good chat on the waves!

As for the message posted by the wonderful "YL" KQ6XA; I totally agree that women have to be included in this ham business stuff.



Cheers all and 73!

Jah Bless from VE2ITZ #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
VE2ITZ,
Me thinks you might be a bit "hyper-sensitive", but that
is not uncommon in today`s "PC' world,--one has to be
"careful" not to offend anyone, even at the expense
of the truth.

As far as YL`s,--I thought YL`s WERE very well accepted
in ham radio over many years,--including going back to
the 30`s and 40`s(look at the old QST back-issues)
There were many licensed YL`s back then,--and that
was long before the "watered down" exams of today.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # 73, K1MVP

[N7YA]

Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Nov. 30 2005,12:01)]Gentlemen, we (myself included) are spending way to much time sitting down and thinking about how to be an author so we can post an entertaining and witty article on QRZ.COM. We are not entertainers, we are ham radio operators. Lets get back on track instead of producing literary messages of meaningless drivel. Including what I just wrote.
Agreed, I have said this before...but this place is like a bag of Doritos. I am on 30 meters as i type this, by the way.

I am just sitting back these days and watching "mankind" reap the fruits of its dominating labors. I have been spending the last few years watching "gentlemen" scramble to position themselves for the advantage. Ive been seeing people of "good moral" standing acting as if the world will change and leave them behind...thus propagating fear, separation and a frail sense of ego. its very odd to me that this very typical human attitude can reach its cold, prying fingers into areas of leisure, like a hobby such as ours...but it has.
I see a patern developing in everything these days...nobody seems to agree on anything, or get along anymore. we now have 'red' states and 'blue' states, 'cons' and 'libs', battle of the sexes, code/no-code, ssb vs. cw, old vs new, ford vs chevy, coke vs pepsi....all for nothing. but, this kind of thing has gone on since our Euro forefathers landed here. (and pushed aside the existing 7 million folks living here, but thats another thread)
QRZ.com is our soap opera, it make many of us feel important, it gives us a box to stand on, a little bit of power in a world where we are basically powerless.
As for being longwinded, this is the place to BE longwinded. take a look at the home page.
There was a recent original post from someone about ham radio and military appreciation...it sat for a week with "0 comments"..not exciting at all, cant fight over that, we all love our vets....but then someone posted something, i think it was about BPL, it had something like 100 comments already before the sun came up for the day. i think its now up to 500 comments.
...and do ANY of you really think that all 500 of them are posted in a fair, respectful and engaging manner?? I didnt care to look, but i bet theres about 10 sub-threads going on, most of which dont have anything to do with the original topic...my guess is that they range from contesters (a clone of our topic here), spell checking, two men arguing over who is more intelligent by picking apart eachothers post (...i.e. "ok Dan so-and-so, show me exactly where in my post i had said anything about the smith chart being deleted from testing requirements"), and a few peacekeepers trying to calm everyone down...which is like sending pee wee herman into a boxing match.
Ladies...Gentlemen...30 meters is pretty quiet...i believe its time for dinner....and i AM an entertainer by trade, by the way. :-)

...carry on, i cant wait to get back here, i dont want to miss another minute of this!! and to K2WH, keep posting brother, as will I, i have come to realize that i seem to actually ENJOY this crap! heh heh

73...catch yall on the flip side, over and out.......

[N5USN]

QUOTE: "......some of these contestants are so far from being gentlemen that i would class them with drunken sailors."
-------------------------------------------------

Somehow, I am taking that as a compliment.

N5USN

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (k7vo @ Nov. 29 2005,22:39)]Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Nov. 29 2005,19:20)]Quote[/b] (KQ6XA @ Nov. 29 2005,10:20)]Quote[/b] (w5alt @ Nov. 23 2005,18:32)]Rotten Gentlemen
" If any group of mankind (which includes women) is to exist for any extended time, some basic agreements must be reached."
Thanks for including the other 52% of the population (albeit parenthetically).
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Bonnie KQ6XA
The word "mankind" has always included women. #Just like "chairman", "manned" (as in manned mission) and quite a few more.
Thank you so much for pointing out that the English language has been inherently sexist for a long time. #There is nothing wrong with usng chairperson, is there? #Humankind? #

Oh, and go ahead, dismiss me as "PC". #Someone will. #That's a great way of dismissing someone without even trying to understand where they are coming from.

Bonnie had a point, and a very good one.
No, the English language has NOT been sexist (that unword) for a long time. What I was saying is that the term "chairman", for example, is not and never has been gender specific. That is "-man" (pronounced "muhn" as in "human" not "man" as in male), so the only people left out would be the non-humans. I feel sure women are still classed as human (they are in MY book!!!)

Example: My (late) wife was chairman of a Scout unit when the kids were small. Nobody blinked an eye at the term and I can tell you for sure she was as female as it gets! The objection is a recent invention and an attempt to change a word just to be able to object to it.

And don't refer me to a "chair" in a meeting - I don't talk to furniture! And "chairperson" sounds rather stilted to me. Humankind can't be used - there's that bad word in the middle!! It's getting so bad that my letters are delivered by a person-person!

[AC0GT]

Quote[/b] (N5USN @ Nov. 30 2005,19:49)]QUOTE: "......some of these contestants are so far from being gentlemen that i would class them with drunken sailors."
-------------------------------------------------

Somehow, I am taking that as a compliment.

N5USN
Thanks for making this soldier grin, Chief!

SPC Kurt Sellner

[KD4MTG]

OK, I am going to put my 2 cents in, this may not be the place, but oh well..
#I spend a lot of time down around 3.700 doing slower CW with a lot of people, I am a relatively new Gen Class. But tonight, I am getting interference from some clowns in Canada doing SSB at 3.718. Do the Canadians not have to follow our band plan ? I though 3.718 was Code only ? How can I confront these guys without breaking the rules myself? Not going to use call signs just yet, but I do have one. Is this practice acceptable and if not, what can I do about it?

[AC0GT]

Quote[/b] (kd4mtg @ Nov. 30 2005,21:14)]OK, I am going to put my 2 cents in, this may not be the place, but oh well..
#I spend a lot of time down around 3.700 doing slower CW with a lot of people, I am a relatively new Gen Class. But tonight, I am getting interference from some clowns in Canada doing SSB at 3.718. Do the Canadians not have to follow our band plan ? I though 3.718 was Code only ? How can I confront these guys without breaking the rules myself? Not going to use call signs just yet, but I do have one. Is this practice acceptable and if not, what can I do about it?
The Canadians are in violation of their own band plan as seen on the RAC website. (http://www.rac.ca/service/hfband.htm) As stated on that same band plan they have not broken any laws. I assume the same is the case here, for example if a US Amateur does the same the FCC will not cite the offender. If I am in error then someone please correct me. I have had this question on my mind for some time but have not been able to get a straight answer.

[kc9cor]

Why would it surprise anyone how fellow amateurs treat each other on the air? #After all, just look at the constant slams toward specific license classes and those with differing opinions on this very message board, even when the original post has nothing to do with that topic. #It always seems to present itself. #Until we can all accept each other and our own opinions without all the mean spirited debate, we will continue to experience this dark side of this hobby. #For some reason, there are those that just can't seem to admit that it's not just us no code techs that are the problem, it's also those could-be elmer's that think they own something that they don't, like a specific frequency. #It's too bad that energy isn't directed toward something beneficial to the hobby.

Show me that we can all respect each other like the brothers and sisters we are, and you'll show us 'newbies' the reason why we should take the time to move up the ladder into more privledged territory. #Continue to show me that you despise me based soley on my call sign/license class, and you give me little reason to even flip the radio on.

Maybe it's time we just start treating each other like human beings again.... #

Merry Christmas to all.

KC9COR

[AC0GT]

Quote[/b] (ai4cb @ Dec. 01 2005,05:49)]Quote[/b] (KC0LXK @ Nov. 30 2005,23:25)]The Canadians are in violation of their own band plan as seen on the RAC website. #(http://www.rac.ca/service/hfband.htm) #As stated on that same band plan they have not broken any laws. #I assume the same is the case here, for example if a US Amateur does the same the FCC will not cite the offender. #If I am in error then someone please correct me. #I have had this question on my mind for some time but have not been able to get a straight answer.
Isn't this covered in the Technician exam any more?

The US has "Phone" segments and "RTTY/Data" segments that are mandated by regulation. If you operate phone in the RTTY/Data segment, or vice-versa, that is a violation of the Part 97 regulations and you could be cited by the FCC.

The Canadian system does not segregate modes by regulation, but by voluntary bandplan. Any authorized mode may legally operate anywhere in the band, provided that the bandwidth is less than 6khz. By "gentleman's agreement", phone generally stays above about 3725 and everything else below 3725. But there's no regulation that forces that.
Band plans are covered in the Technician test. #What is not covered is the consequences of violating that band plan. #Would I be in violation of a "gentleman's agreement" or of FCC regulations? #If the band plan is mandated by the FCC then why is it called a "gentleman's agreement"?

It's not that I would casually violate the band plan, it's just that there is an ambiguity in the definition of the band plan.

[W0GI]

This is an interesting thread, as the ARRL proposal was just sent to the FCC that suggests that we get rid of regulation, and depend on gentlemen's agreement.

What a concept.

73 - W6NJ

[N2MMM]

SPAR would have a lot morecredibility regarding this issue if they didn't get into bed with FISTS on the Morse issue. When I criticized SPAR's inflammatory post on the subject (which has since been locked) I recieved an E-Mail from a gentleman using "CW4EVER" as part of his addy with the subject line "Major Problem", the implication that SPAR had a major problem with my opinion. Well, I do not consider SPAR a productive part of the debate. However, I will communicate my concerns about the impact on the proposed band regulation's ompact on AM operation below 30 Mhz. because, I don't care about the CW/digital controversy. Maybe if CW types were friendlier to Technician class operators, I would care

[k3msb]

Quote[/b] (KC0LXK @ Dec. 01 2005,07:26)]If the band plan is mandated by the FCC then why is it called a "gentleman's agreement"?
The ARRL bandplan is not mandated by the FCC; #its provided by the ARRL. # You can not get cited for not following the ARRL bandplan as it is not an FCC regulation. #A few years ago, the FCC was asked to enforce an instance of someone not following the ARRL bandplan, and the FCC refused.

As far as I'm concerned, the FCC should adopt the philospohy of most other countries in the world concerning amateur radio rules: #here's your band edges, here's your power limits; have fun".

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ Dec. 01 2005,10:26)]SPAR would have a lot morecredibility regarding this issue if they didn't get into bed with FISTS on the Morse issue. When I criticized SPAR's inflammatory post on the subject (which has since been locked) I recieved an E-Mail from a gentleman using "CW4EVER" as part of his addy with the subject line "Major Problem", the implication that SPAR had a major problem with my opinion. Well, I do not consider SPAR a productive part of the debate. However, I will communicate my concerns about the impact on the proposed band regulation's ompact on AM operation below 30 Mhz. because, I don't care about the CW/digital controversy. Maybe if CW types were friendlier to Technician class operators, I would care
Retention of Telegraphy testing for at least the Extra license class is a very small part of SPAR. You can go to http://www.spar-hams.org and download a "Welcome" brochure aimed directly at Technician Class Operators. If I recall, it does not mention CW one time. It does encourage good operating habits and is intended to help new Techs get on the air. Clubs can personalize it for their local area adding local repeater frequencies and names of loacl Elmers.

When the ARRL dropped the "Ragchew Award", SPAR picked it up recognizing it's benefit as the first award most Technicians try for.

Currently SPAR is doing a brochure for new General Class Operators. The only emphasis on CW is suggesting you give it a try and providing operating tips. Most of the document revolves around SSB and Digital although AM is covered as well. It helps new General Class operators find cheap gear and is aimed at improving general operating ability up front. Additionally, SPAR members are working on two digital related projects related to multi-casting and a working "busy detect" for digital applications.


Unlike the ARRL, SPAR members vote on comments and petitions. The group cannot take a significant public action not approved by the membership. Of course they are not nearly as big as the ARRL, but a good foundation of rules exists that the League could learn from.


I suggest you do not let your rancor for CW effect your ability to be objective.

[AC0GT]

Quote[/b] (k3msb @ Dec. 01 2005,11:19)]Quote[/b] (KC0LXK @ Dec. 01 2005,07:26)]If the band plan is mandated by the FCC then why is it called a "gentleman's agreement"?
The ARRL bandplan is not mandated by the FCC; #its provided by the ARRL. # You can not get cited for not following the ARRL bandplan as it is not an FCC regulation. #A few years ago, the FCC was asked to enforce an instance of someone not following the ARRL bandplan, and the FCC refused.

Thanks for the clarification.

Quote[/b] (k3msb @ Dec. 01 2005,11:19)]As far as I'm concerned, the FCC should adopt the philospohy of most other countries in the world concerning amateur radio rules: #here's your band edges, here's your power limits; have fun".
I agree. There should be limits on channel width as well. Such as no single user should take more than 6 kHz for any single transmission on an HF frequency. I'm not saying you would disagree, I am just clarifying a point.

[k3msb]

Quote[/b] (ai4cb @ Dec. 01 2005,12:03)]They suggest that 3.845 be used for SSTV and 3.885 be used for AM.
This is not correct. #They list 3.885 as the AM calling frequency only;# #AM can be used in any section of the Phone subbands.

[n4avl]

While you may be perfectly right to dislike this behaviour it's simple to deduce that radio people are still a microcosm of society & reflect the many "kinds" of personalities in it. You've made it this far in life survivng folks like that & remember that you're in control of what bothers you. Remember this too: there's less than 700,000 Hams. With the likes of Motorola et.al reminding the FCC that a whole lot more (like millions) people could use that portion of any spectrum they want then amateur radio needs all the numbers it can get. Besides, when the code requirement is removed or just needed for extra class there will be an ocean of this colorful language bouncing around - deal with it. And for God's sake, that paternalistic "...mankind (which includes women)..." crap is harder to take than some uninteresting adjectives that you complain about.

73

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (n4avl @ Dec. 01 2005,15:39)]While you may be perfectly right to dislike this behaviour it's simple to deduce that radio people are still a microcosm of society & reflect the many "kinds" of personalities in it. You've made it this far in life survivng folks like that & remember that you're in control of what bothers you. Remember this too: there's less than 700,000 Hams. With the likes of Motorola et.al reminding the FCC that a whole lot more (like millions) people could use that portion of any spectrum they want then amateur radio needs all the numbers it can get. Besides, when the code requirement is removed or just needed for extra class there will be an ocean of this colorful language bouncing around - deal with it. And for God's sake, that paternalistic "...mankind (which includes women)..." crap is harder to take than some uninteresting adjectives that you complain about.

73
Call: N4AVL Class: Technician

Spoken like a true renaissance man.

[w4fjf]

All I've seen on this subject is that most of you want "somebody else" to solve your problems. Your QSO gets stomped upon, or those AMer's "bother you", or somebody isn't following the ARRL decreed "Bandplan", or your Digital contact gets destroyed by a strong CW op. Gee guys, I weep golden tears for all of you who are "disturbed" (pun intended) by others who are trying to enjoy our hobby just as much as you are. I wonder why? Is it because of the sunspot low forcing all of us to use the limited frequencies available, or is it the continually changing propagation conditions on what bands that are available? Or is it the crowding of the available frequencies, and everyone expecting to be able to operate like conditions were 6 or 7 years ago? Get with it people! The FCC isn't going to solve your problems for you, neither is the ARRL. Either you live with the conditions we are presently experiencing, or pack it all away for 4 or 5 years until the propagation conditions improve so that the sunspot high conditions come back. This is the third sunspot low cycle I've been through, and all the old complaints have resurfaced once again. We are all crowded together once again on a few bands that retain SOME propagation. I can remember the last sunspot low where we had NO propagation conditions for a week at a time on 40,75, and even 160m got totally blanked out for a few days. Stop complaining, and start cooperating with each other. The FCC expects us to solve our own problems, that is part of the deal they gave us, along with a lot of spectrum, and very few rules (compared with the other services). The only thing you should bother the FCC with are repeat offenders of rules and regs where we aren't able to handle the situation ourselves. Other than that stuff, the FCC doesn't care about sombody'd petty little squabbles about digital, cw,ssb,am, and fm ops. We are supposed to police ourselves, and we can do it if we cooperate with each other, instead of moaning, complaining and bitching constantly. Nuff said.

[w4nti]

Quote[/b] (KC0LXK @ Nov. 30 2005,21:25)]Quote[/b] (kd4mtg @ Nov. 30 2005,21:14)]OK, I am going to put my 2 cents in, this may not be the place, but oh well..
#I spend a lot of time down around 3.700 doing slower CW with a lot of people, I am a relatively new Gen Class. But tonight, I am getting interference from some clowns in Canada doing SSB at 3.718. Do the Canadians not have to follow our band plan ? I though 3.718 was Code only ? How can I confront these guys without breaking the rules myself? Not going to use call signs just yet, but I do have one. Is this practice acceptable and if not, what can I do about it?
The Canadians are in violation of their own band plan as seen on the RAC website. #(http://www.rac.ca/service/hfband.htm) #As stated on that same band plan they have not broken any laws. #I assume the same is the case here, for example if a US Amateur does the same the FCC will not cite the offender. #If I am in error then someone please correct me. #I have had this question on my mind for some time but have not been able to get a straight answer.
Some Canadians think they are "special". And enjoy operating on top of US non voice stations. Because THEY CAN.

You see the Canadians are not under the authority of the FCC. They belong to the Canadian equivilant. You know, different country and all that sort of thing.

You really can't blame them. If I could operate SSB in non US territory I certainly would do so. Nice and quiet, no morons and idiots. Got it's plusses. But then I would have to move to Canada.....hmmmmm. I'll just move my dial...which is what you need to do.

And no.....they don't have to follow our band plan. And by what I see with the digital crowd....Either do we apparantly.

Dan/W4NTI

[AC0GT]

Quote[/b] (w4nti @ Dec. 01 2005,17:33)]Quote[/b] (KC0LXK @ Nov. 30 2005,21:25)]Quote[/b] (kd4mtg @ Nov. 30 2005,21:14)]OK, I am going to put my 2 cents in, this may not be the place, but oh well..
#I spend a lot of time down around 3.700 doing slower CW with a lot of people, I am a relatively new Gen Class. But tonight, I am getting interference from some clowns in Canada doing SSB at 3.718. Do the Canadians not have to follow our band plan ? I though 3.718 was Code only ? How can I confront these guys without breaking the rules myself? Not going to use call signs just yet, but I do have one. Is this practice acceptable and if not, what can I do about it?
The Canadians are in violation of their own band plan as seen on the RAC website. #(http://www.rac.ca/service/hfband.htm) #As stated on that same band plan they have not broken any laws. #I assume the same is the case here, for example if a US Amateur does the same the FCC will not cite the offender. #If I am in error then someone please correct me. #I have had this question on my mind for some time but have not been able to get a straight answer.
Some Canadians think they are "special". #And enjoy operating on top of US non voice stations. #Because THEY CAN. #

You see the Canadians are not under the authority of the FCC. #They belong to the Canadian equivilant. #You know, #different country and all that sort of thing.

You really can't blame them. #If I could operate SSB in non US territory I certainly would do so. #Nice and quiet, no morons and idiots. #Got it's plusses. #But then I would have to move to Canada.....hmmmmm. #I'll just move my dial...which is what you need to do.

And no.....they don't have to follow our band plan. #And by what I see with the digital crowd....Either do we apparantly.

Dan/W4NTI
I think every one here realizes that each country regulates their own citizen's operation on Amateur frequencies. #What most people don't realize is that no law was broken. #Also no law would be broken in responding to the Canadian under FCC rules.

One problem with the band plans is the inconsistency among the countries. #Let's say there is a UK op transmitting SSB on the lower portion of 40 meters. #Let's say I would like to respond. #How should I do so? #I could transmit SSB back but that wold violate the gentleman's agreement. #I could respond in one of many non-voice modes (such as CW or PSK31) but how do I know the UK op will understand what I'm sending? #Sure would be simpler to respond by voice, after all the guy is already taking up the bandwidth and I'd just be respond on that same channel. #Using the same frequency certainly makes more sense than working split frequency where our friendly chat would take twice the bandwidth.

The ARRL wants to change the band plan now? #Fine, just make it match up with all the other country's band plans.

[N5FOG]

I am amazed at reading that a CW op would do something as horrible as distrupt a PSK QSO. Those PSK ops should know that the ALMIGHT CW has the right-of-way over anyone else. After all CW is the chosen mode and a CW op can do no wrong.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (KC0LXK @ Dec. 01 2005,20:42)]One problem with the band plans is the inconsistency among the countries. #Let's say there is a UK op transmitting SSB on the lower portion of 40 meters. #Let's say I would like to respond. #How should I do so? #I could transmit SSB back but that wold violate the gentleman's agreement. #
No, that would violate the LAW. Bit of a difference.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 01 2005,23:49)]Those PSK ops should know that the ALMIGHT CW has the right-of-way over anyone else. After all CW is the chosen mode and a CW op can do no wrong.
Hmmm, must be a SSB op. Never heard a CW person say such a thing. They know they can do lots of wrong. Most choose otherwise, but, of course, not all.

And most know that NOBODY has a right over anyone else. First op has the freq.

[wa4dou]

KC0LXK, the reason you would not answer a station on ssb on the low end of 40 meters is NOT because you were following a gentlemen's agreement but because no US amateur has phone privileges there! It would be against the law!

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 01 2005,23:49)]I am amazed at reading that a CW op would do something as horrible as distrupt a PSK QSO. Those PSK ops should know that the ALMIGHT CW has the right-of-way over anyone else. After all CW is the chosen mode and a CW op can do no wrong.
Call: KC5FOG Class: Technician

Sounds like sour grapes to me....

[ke6i]

You just gotta' realize that some people, as in me, have super-high noise levels. For me, I'm never 100% sure that the frequency is clear. I can ask, but if you're not coming in above the RF buzz saw that's running all the time here, I'm just not going to hear you. All I can do is listen the best I can, and then transmit if it sounds quiet to me. Sometimes that's going to step on people. Sorry.

[aa1mn]

Quote[/b] ]Yep,--the "politically correct" agenda`s have found
their way in ham radio,--should this be a "big surpise"?

An astute observation.

These are the same people who get the FCC in a panic over Janet Jackson's nipple slip and decry the foulness of Howard Stern on broadcast television and radio and then decry it even further when he moves to cable television and satellite radio because their politic correctness isn't enforced there.

Ah well, at least some of us are reasonable enough to realize we aren't forced to listen to their jibberish because we can change the frequency or shut the set off.

Chuck, AA1MN

[k3msb]

Quote[/b] (ke6i @ Dec. 02 2005,09:52)]You just gotta' realize that some people, as in me, have super-high noise levels. #For me, I'm never 100% sure that the frequency is clear. #I can ask, but if you're not coming in above the RF buzz saw that's running all the time here, I'm just not going to hear you. #All I can do is listen the best I can, and then transmit if it sounds quiet to me. #Sometimes that's going to step on people. #Sorry.
The same applies even with no noise level. #If someone can not hear your signal due to low power, #said individual can't be blamed for clobbering you when he fires up with 500+ watts. # #That's the risk you take.
Most people jump to conclusions when they get clobbered in that they assume it's intentional. #Perhaps sometimes it is; #I suspect most time's it's not.

[aa1mn]

Quote[/b] ]Thank you so much for pointing out that the English language has been inherently sexist for a long time. There is nothing wrong with usng chairperson, is there? Humankind?

Oh, and go ahead, dismiss me as "PC". Someone will. That's a great way of dismissing someone without even trying to understand where they are coming from.

Bonnie had a point, and a very good one.

You do realize, of course, that you needn't use language you find sexist don't you? Or is it that you are so free of biases and bigotries yourself you have the time to correct others of thiers?

Oops, that can't be true that last because you're obviously biased and bigoted against the use of sexist language ... game over, you loose.

Chuck, AA1MN

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Dec. 02 2005,10:58)]Quote[/b] ]Yep,--the "politically correct" agenda`s have found
their way in ham radio,--should this be a "big surpise"?

An astute observation.

These are the same people who get the FCC in a panic over Janet Jackson's nipple slip and decry the foulness of Howard Stern on broadcast television and radio and then decry it even further when he moves to cable television and satellite radio because their politic correctness isn't enforced there.

Ah well, at least some of us are reasonable enough to realize we aren't forced to listen to their jibberish because we can change the frequency or shut the set off.

Chuck, AA1MN
Yes,--we can turn the radio off, or change frequency,
etc,etc,--but WHY should we?--They are the one`s who
should be keeping their "mouth shut",IMO
The airwaves are a "public medium", NOT a private
phone or medium.

Oh yes.--I know "freedom of speech", is the claim,--well,
Try yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre or auditorium when
there is no fire, and see if the "freedom of speech"
argument holds up in court.

Many of us have invested both money/ and time into ham radio,and ARE abiding by the law in using "civil" language, etc.

Why should WE #have to QSY or turn off the radio
just because of some "jerk", who thinks he has an
"inalienable #right" to spew out anything and everything on the air.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # #73, K1MVP

[N5FOG]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Dec. 01 2005,11:44)]Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 01 2005,23:49)]I am amazed at reading that a CW op would do something as horrible as distrupt a PSK QSO. Those PSK ops should know that the ALMIGHT CW has the right-of-way over anyone else. After all CW is the chosen mode and a CW op can do no wrong.
Call: KC5FOG Class: Technician

Sounds like sour grapes to me....
AG4YO CLASS:Extra Arrogant
Spoken like a true Snob


You show your true colors when you make a comment about someone and all you judge them by is their license class. Sour grapes LOL thats very funny actually I'm laffing my ass off at people like you because I know in a couple of months you will be crying your eyes out when your elitest HF club is open to all. So there are not sour grapes here just a long wire dipole, KW amp, my trusty TS-570 and oh yea my General and Extra Class Theory CSCE's http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


Happy Holidays http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

PS The Cat in the picture above is actually a older timer thats been told they dropped the code.

[ad4mg]

Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 02 2005,19:04)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Dec. 01 2005,11:44)]Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 01 2005,23:49)]I am amazed at reading that a CW op would do something as horrible as distrupt a PSK QSO. Those PSK ops should know that the ALMIGHT CW has the right-of-way over anyone else. After all CW is the chosen mode and a CW op can do no wrong.
Call: KC5FOG Class: Technician

Sounds like sour grapes to me....
AG4YO CLASS:Extra Snobby

You show your true colors when you make a comment about someone and all you judge them by is their license class. Sour grapes LOL thats very funny actually I'm laffing my ass off at people like you because I know in a couple of months you will be crying your eyes out when your elitest HF club is open to all. So there are not sour grapes here just a long wire dipole, KW amp, my trusty TS-570 and oh yea my General and Extra Class CSCE's :D


Happy Holidays :cool:
Your way of making new friends FOG? Of course you took under consideration the vast majority of extra, advanced, and general class operators now enjoying MF & HF privileges who will welcome all new ops to the ranks, right?

I predict your attitude will bring you lots of misery on the HF bands. You won't be around very long.

Charlie calls 'em like he sees 'em. I'm prone to agree with him on this one. Sour Grapes it is.

BTW - what do you need the amp for?

[N5FOG]

Quote[/b] (ad4mg @ Dec. 01 2005,18:23)]Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 02 2005,19:04)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Dec. 01 2005,11:44)]Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 01 2005,23:49)]I am amazed at reading that a CW op would do something as horrible as distrupt a PSK QSO. Those PSK ops should know that the ALMIGHT CW has the right-of-way over anyone else. After all CW is the chosen mode and a CW op can do no wrong.
Call: KC5FOG Class: Technician

Sounds like sour grapes to me....
AG4YO CLASS:Extra Snobby

You show your true colors when you make a comment about someone and all you judge them by is their license class. Sour grapes LOL thats very funny actually I'm laffing my ass off at people like you because I know in a couple of months you will be crying your eyes out when your elitest HF club is open to all. So there are not sour grapes here just a long wire dipole, KW amp, my trusty TS-570 and oh yea my General and Extra Class CSCE's http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


Happy Holidays http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Your way of making new friends FOG? #Of course you took under consideration the vast majority of extra, advanced, and general class operators now enjoying MF & HF privileges who will welcome all new ops to the ranks, right?

I predict your attitude will bring you lots of misery on the HF bands. #You won't be around very long.

Charlie calls 'em like he sees 'em. #I'm prone to agree with him on this one. #Sour Grapes it is.

BTW - what do you need the amp for?
Actually that’s not my attitude, I made an original post offering some tongue in cheek humor about the CW op Qrm'ing with the PSK ops. But he came back like he did in a pervious post with a jab at a license class and saying I have sour grapes.

What do I have sour grapes over? The CW? It going to be gone soon so what should I have sour grapes over?

I think AG4YO has more sour grapes than anyone. And I call them as I see them, he is upset because things are changing and he doesn't like it.

People like AG4YO have no one to blame except themselves about the code. If the pro-code people would have gave just a little bit and agreed to knock the code off general or some other meaningful codeless HF operating privileges then the code might have stayed for the Extra class. But instead this die hard not give an inch caused the FCC to have this all or nothing attitude on the code.


Eric Kc5Fog

[k0ews]

Quote[/b] ]People like AG4YO have no one to blame except themselves about the code. If the pro-code people would have gave just a little bit and agreed to knock the code off general or some other meaningful codeless HF operating privileges then the code might have stayed for the Extra class. But instead this die hard not give an inch caused the FCC to have this all or nothing attitude on the code. [QUOTE]
How is that true? What proposal are you talking about? There were several proposals to the FCC, and the ARRL one did include not only losing the code for General, but a proposal that created an entry level technician HF license, by grandfathering Techs to General.
This has nothing to do with Code/No Code. The original post is about civility on the airwaves. Frankly, I don't know, or even give a **** what the class of an operator is when I'm in a QSO. I care if the QSO is interesting, and whether or not I'm enjoying it. FOG, you might want to try code, and no, even though the it will probably not be a license requirement, it won't go away. It's the 2nd most used mode in ham radio outside of phone, and most CW ops I've ever had a QSO with have been nothing but class. That's not bragging, or snobbish, or elitist, that's the way it is. Also, you will find that digital operators are very much the same way.
Before you knock some of these modes, try them! I for one, would be glad to have a QSO with you any time on any mode, regardless of your license class or experience.

[W0GDS]

Excellent script Sir! Hope that more will read and understand the essence of your writing, then heed what they have then read. Putting into action the Gentlemanly habits for on the air respect of others.

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 02 2005,16:04)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Dec. 01 2005,11:44)]Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 01 2005,23:49)]I am amazed at reading that a CW op would do something as horrible as distrupt a PSK QSO. Those PSK ops should know that the ALMIGHT CW has the right-of-way over anyone else. After all CW is the chosen mode and a CW op can do no wrong.
Call: KC5FOG Class: Technician

Sounds like sour grapes to me....
AG4YO CLASS:Extra Arrogant
Spoken like a true Snob


You show your true colors when you make a comment about someone and all you judge them by is their license class. Sour grapes LOL thats very funny actually I'm laffing my ass off at people like you because I know in a couple of months you will be crying your eyes out when your elitest HF club is open to all. So there are not sour grapes here just a long wire dipole, KW amp, my trusty TS-570 and oh yea my General and Extra Class Theory CSCE's http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


Happy Holidays http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

PS The Cat in the picture above is actually a older timer thats been told they dropped the code.
ROFLMAO!! Hopefully reading comprehension will not be part of your test...

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 02 2005,17:15)]People like AG4YO have no one to blame except themselves about the code. If the pro-code people would have gave just a little bit and agreed to knock the code off general or some other meaningful codeless HF operating privileges then the code might have stayed for the Extra class. But instead this die hard not give an inch caused the FCC to have this all or nothing attitude on the code.


Eric Kc5Fog
Petition RM-10805 asked the FCC to grant HF privleges to Technician Class Operators in most all HF bands. Look it up on the internet. Please report back the name of the author of that petition.

(I see another outboard motor in a tub of Jello coming... but...but...but...but...but...)

[AC0GT]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Dec. 02 2005,20:47)]Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 02 2005,17:15)]People like AG4YO have no one to blame except themselves about the code. If the pro-code people would have gave just a little bit and agreed to knock the code off general or some other meaningful codeless HF operating privileges then the code might have stayed for the Extra class. But instead this die hard not give an inch caused the FCC to have this all or nothing attitude on the code.


Eric Kc5Fog
Petition RM-10805 asked the FCC to grant HF privleges to Technician Class Operators in most all HF bands. Look it up on the internet. Please report back the name of the author of that petition. #

(I see another outboard motor in a tub of Jello coming... #but...but...but...but...but...)
The FCC has stated their desire to rid Amateur radio of Morse code testing almost a decade ago. #It didn't have a chance to stay much longer no matter what Amateurs asked for. #The ITU requirement was the only thing keeping the FCC from dropping Morse code testing five years ago, the FCC stated such quite plainly. No buts about that.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 02 2005,17:15)]The CW? It going to be gone soon .....
Eric Kc5Fog
Now there's a real myth.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (k0ews @ Dec. 02 2005,17:53)]..and most CW ops I've ever had a QSO with have been nothing but class. #That's not bragging, or snobbish, or elitist, that's the way it is. #
Actually, that is elitist. And there is nothing wrong with elitist, it merely means that quality is recognized.

[N5FOG]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Dec. 01 2005,22:47)]Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 02 2005,17:15)]People like AG4YO have no one to blame except themselves about the code. If the pro-code people would have gave just a little bit and agreed to knock the code off general or some other meaningful codeless HF operating privileges then the code might have stayed for the Extra class. But instead this die hard not give an inch caused the FCC to have this all or nothing attitude on the code.


Eric Kc5Fog
Petition RM-10805 asked the FCC to grant HF privleges to Technician Class Operators in most all HF bands. Look it up on the internet. Please report back the name of the author of that petition. #

(I see another outboard motor in a tub of Jello coming... #but...but...but...but...but...)
You just can't win with you trolls. I'm not talking about the last year I'm speaking in reference to the whole battle on Code vs. No Code. And to K0EWS I've tired code and don't care for it. But the ugly truth that it boils down to is AG4YO and anyone else who attacks someone or makes a blanket statement about them solely based on their license class is making it a Code vs. No Code issue. Because if they knew the code they wouldn’t be a Tech right?

"ROFLMAO!! #Hopefully reading comprehension will not be part of your test... "

After reading you profile I'm sorry if I am not as well schooled and educated as you.

See you old timers sit around getting close to retirement and your biggest concern/worry is about how it’s unfair about the code, or the cost of a new HF rig.

It’s not the same world you grew up in sir; young people like me have to compete with stuff you didn’t even imagine in your day. Like large scale outsourcing of jobs, political correctness in the school systems that says I can't get crap for student finical aid because I'm not a minority. But in light of all that I’ve still managed to work my way through school and get my associates degree and am currently working towards a bachelor’s degree. So while you’re sitting in that cozy little arm chair operating station you have pictured on your profile or sitting at your computer typing nasty comments about people with lower licnese classes I will be sitting in my patrol car trying to squeeze in a little studying for final exams at college between being called out on the radio to go spread some holiday cheer.

When one man attacks another mans education it shows his true colors and his extreme arrogance. And you can argue all you want, but your statement was an attack on my education.


Happy Holidays
Kc5Fog

[N5FOG]

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Dec. 01 2005,23:28)]Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 02 2005,17:15)]The CW? It going to be gone soon .....
Eric Kc5Fog
Now there's a real myth.
Let me clarify the CW REQUIRMENT will gone soon




Eric Kc5Fog

[kc0rom]

i have read many of the posts but you guys have lost track of what the author was even discussing in the first place,the author made reference to treating people with respect and dignity in a public forum and to use tact and diplomacy when discussing matters that concern us as Amateur radio operators, I don't care what class of operator you are we are in this thing together, and we all did what was required of us to obtain the class of license that we have .The author was just reminding us in a gentle manner that we need to be respectful of others rights and of their feelings or beliefs. Sincerely a 5 wpm general class amateur radio operator. 73's kc0rom

[kt6k]

Hey!!!!

Fred
KT6K

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 02 2005,21:49)]Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Dec. 01 2005,23:28)]Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 02 2005,17:15)]The CW? It going to be gone soon .....
Eric Kc5Fog
Now there's a real myth.
Let me clarify the CW REQUIRMENT will gone soon
Eric Kc5Fog
Maybe. The jury is still out.

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (KC0LXK @ Dec. 02 2005,21:12)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Dec. 02 2005,20:47)]Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 02 2005,17:15)]People like AG4YO have no one to blame except themselves about the code. If the pro-code people would have gave just a little bit and agreed to knock the code off general or some other meaningful codeless HF operating privileges then the code might have stayed for the Extra class. But instead this die hard not give an inch caused the FCC to have this all or nothing attitude on the code.


Eric Kc5Fog
Petition RM-10805 asked the FCC to grant HF privleges to Technician Class Operators in most all HF bands. Look it up on the internet. Please report back the name of the author of that petition.

(I see another outboard motor in a tub of Jello coming... but...but...but...but...but...)
The FCC has stated their desire to rid Amateur radio of Morse code testing almost a decade ago. It didn't have a chance to stay much longer no matter what Amateurs asked for. The ITU requirement was the only thing keeping the FCC from dropping Morse code testing five years ago, the FCC stated such quite plainly. No buts about that.
And as usual, in the rush to impart your wisdom, you lack the motivation to comprehend the specific message commented on. Your comment is immaterial to my conversation with fog.

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] ] fog: So while you’re sitting in that cozy little arm chair operating station you have pictured on your profile or sitting at your computer typing nasty comments about people with lower licnese classes...

Your license class is only a reference to your anti-code comments and goes to perspective. Only your own conduct as an amateur would make you a better or lesser person than any other amateur.

Quote[/b] ]fog: If the pro-code people would have gave just a little bit and agreed to knock the code off general or some other meaningful codeless HF operating privileges then the code might have stayed for the Extra class.

...

I'm not talking about the last year I'm speaking in reference to the whole battle on Code vs. No Code.

Alot of us did offer to give and compromise. So you're wrong. And in case you missed it, some of the petitions were filed going on 3 years ago. RM-10805 was filed over 2 years ago which you were afraid to say was filed by me asking for HF privleges for Techs.

They don't give medals for being wrong, Eric. If they did you'd be top heavy.

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (kc0rom @ Dec. 03 2005,03:05)]i have read many of the posts but you guys have lost track of what the author was even discussing in the first place,the author made reference to treating people with respect and dignity in a public forum and to use tact and diplomacy when discussing matters that concern us as Amateur radio operators, I don't care what class of operator you are we are in this thing together, and we all did what was required of us to obtain the class of license that we have .The author was just reminding us in a gentle manner that we need to be respectful of others rights and of their feelings or beliefs. Sincerely a 5 wpm general class amateur radio operator. 73's kc0rom
Great point. Being a gentleman has no license class, no reliance on code knowledge, no prohibition on standing up for your beliefs. The suggestion that because times have changed this is an excuse for butt-headed behavior on the air is whistling in the graveyard. It's what the author referred to as holding up a criminal in the mirror with your own mug to make yourself feel better about your lack of class.

What you are has no comparitive reference with what I am or anybody else is. YOU have responsibility for yourself and whether you're a nice guy or a jerk on the air.

[AC0GT]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Dec. 03 2005,09:32)]Quote[/b] (KC0LXK @ Dec. 02 2005,21:12)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Dec. 02 2005,20:47)]Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 02 2005,17:15)]People like AG4YO have no one to blame except themselves about the code. If the pro-code people would have gave just a little bit and agreed to knock the code off general or some other meaningful codeless HF operating privileges then the code might have stayed for the Extra class. But instead this die hard not give an inch caused the FCC to have this all or nothing attitude on the code.


Eric Kc5Fog
Petition RM-10805 asked the FCC to grant HF privleges to Technician Class Operators in most all HF bands. Look it up on the internet. Please report back the name of the author of that petition. #

(I see another outboard motor in a tub of Jello coming... #but...but...but...but...but...)
The FCC has stated their desire to rid Amateur radio of Morse code testing almost a decade ago. #It didn't have a chance to stay much longer no matter what Amateurs asked for. #The ITU requirement was the only thing keeping the FCC from dropping Morse code testing five years ago, the FCC stated such quite plainly. #No buts about that.
And as usual, in the rush to impart your wisdom, you lack the motivation to comprehend the specific message commented on. Your comment is immaterial to my conversation with fog.
AG4YO,
Immaterial? If you insist. I was trying to correct KC5FOG that Amateurs asking to keep the Morse code testing would have made a difference. The FCC stated years ago that Morse code testing no longer served any regulatory purpose and therefore will go. The FCC turned a deaf ear to the screams of keeping Morse code long ago and any kind of compromise would not have happened.

If you and KC5FOG want to keep screaming back and forth over what is done and past then, please, forgive my stepping in to your conversation and continue berating each other with no further interruption from me.

[N7COA]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif Excellent, Brian, G8ADD. And when my radio begins to sound like a garbage dump I just commit vomitus interruptus and turn the darn thing off.

[KI4CPL]

The Amateur's Code:
CONSIDERATE...never knowingly operates in such a way as to lessen the pleasure of others.

LOYAL...offers loyalty, encouragement & support to other amateurs, local clubs, & the ARRL, through which Amateur Radio in the US is represented nationally and internationally.

PROGRESSIVE...with knowledge abreast of science, a well-built and effcient station & operation above reproach.

FRIENDLY...slow & patient operating when requested; friendly advice & counsel to the beginner; kindly assistance, cooperation & consideration for the interests of others. These are the hallmarks of the amateur spirit.

BALANCED...radio is an avocation, never interfering with duties owed to family, job, school, or community.

PATRIOTIC...station & skill always ready for service to country & community.

written by Paul M. Segal,W9EEA, in 1928.

This is still relevant today.

[N5FOG]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Dec. 02 2005,11:51)]Quote[/b] ] fog: So while you’re sitting in that cozy little arm chair operating station you have pictured on your profile or sitting at your computer typing nasty comments about people with lower licnese classes...

Your license class is only a reference to your anti-code comments and goes to perspective. Only your own conduct as an amateur would make you a better or lesser person than any other amateur. #

Quote[/b] ]fog: If the pro-code people would have gave just a little bit and agreed to knock the code off general or some other meaningful codeless HF operating privileges then the code might have stayed for the Extra class.

...

I'm not talking about the last year I'm speaking in reference to the whole battle on Code vs. No Code.

Alot of us did offer to give and compromise. #So you're wrong. And in case you missed it, some of the petitions were filed going on 3 years ago. RM-10805 was filed over 2 years ago which you were afraid to say was filed by me asking for HF privleges for Techs.

They don't give medals for being wrong, Eric. If they did you'd be top heavy.
Your RM-10805 proposal is nothing short of an insult.

It was nothing more than you trying to throw just enough breadcrumbs to keep the peasants from rioting and try to appease them without losing any real ground. It offered no reasonable privileges and WAS NOT an offer to give and compromise. The 50 kHz slice of each band would be a tower of babble.

Honestly RM-10805 is the same as if you knocked on someone’s door and pissed on their shoe.

Eric Kc5Fog

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 03 2005,22:25)]Your RM-10805 proposal is nothing short of an insult.

It was nothing more than you trying to throw just enough breadcrumbs to keep the peasants from rioting and try to appease them without losing any real ground. It offered no reasonable privileges and WAS NOT an offer to give and compromise. The 50 kHz slice of each band would be a tower of babble.

Honestly RM-10805 is the same as if you knocked on someone’s door and pissed on their shoe.

Eric Kc5Fog
AG4YO,--Charlie,
#Ya can`t win with the "new breed" of so called "ham",
#I think I would call it "quits" with their "rationales",
#cause no matter what they get,--its never going to
#be good enough.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # 73, K1MVP

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 03 2005,22:25)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Dec. 02 2005,11:51)]Quote[/b] ] fog: So while you’re sitting in that cozy little arm chair operating station you have pictured on your profile or sitting at your computer typing nasty comments about people with lower licnese classes...

Your license class is only a reference to your anti-code comments and goes to perspective. Only your own conduct as an amateur would make you a better or lesser person than any other amateur.

Quote[/b] ]fog: If the pro-code people would have gave just a little bit and agreed to knock the code off general or some other meaningful codeless HF operating privileges then the code might have stayed for the Extra class.

...

I'm not talking about the last year I'm speaking in reference to the whole battle on Code vs. No Code.

Alot of us did offer to give and compromise. So you're wrong. And in case you missed it, some of the petitions were filed going on 3 years ago. RM-10805 was filed over 2 years ago which you were afraid to say was filed by me asking for HF privleges for Techs.

They don't give medals for being wrong, Eric. If they did you'd be top heavy.
Your RM-10805 proposal is nothing short of an insult.

It was nothing more than you trying to throw just enough breadcrumbs to keep the peasants from rioting and try to appease them without losing any real ground. It offered no reasonable privileges and WAS NOT an offer to give and compromise. The 50 kHz slice of each band would be a tower of babble.

Honestly RM-10805 is the same as if you knocked on someone’s door and pissed on their shoe.

Eric Kc5Fog
Eric, Since they only give you the one bullet, you don't have to always shoot yourself in the foot with it! ROFL!!

[kd4mxe]

Quote[/b] (K1MVP @ Dec. 04 2005,11:10)]Quote[/b] (Kc5fog @ Dec. 03 2005,22:25)]Your RM-10805 proposal is nothing short of an insult.

It was nothing more than you trying to throw just enough breadcrumbs to keep the peasants from rioting and try to appease them without losing any real ground. It offered no reasonable privileges and WAS NOT an offer to give and compromise. The 50 kHz slice of each band would be a tower of babble.

Honestly RM-10805 is the same as if you knocked on someone’s door and pissed on their shoe.

Eric Kc5Fog
AG4YO,--Charlie,
#Ya can`t win with the "new breed" of so called "ham",
#I think I would call it "quits" with their "rationales",
#cause no matter what they get,--its never going to
#be good enough.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # 73, K1MVP
k1mvp - Rene did you get the two letters I sent you , if you did thanks, 73 Bill

[km1r]

"rotten gentlemen / rotten operating..."

While I have no objection to any mode of transmission on our ham bands, I am having a lot of trouble with the digital folks on 30m. (or as we call them... the "internet folks")

I can't begin to list how many times I am trying to work a DX station on 30m, when some robot controlled digital rockrusher opens up on top of the qso and wipes it out. Or even better, when a DX station is running a pileup and the robot (not hearing the weak DX) comes up and blasts it to smithereens.

And lets be honest here... how many of these digital stations are running 200 watts or less? After 50 years in the radio business (amateur and professional HF) I can tell when a signal is over 200 watts! And they are not simply running good antennas... since they CAN'T hear!

There, I vented my gripe about rotten operating... and I feel so much better.

73 to all...

Mike KM1R

[K1MVP]

KD4MXE,--Bill,
Yes,--I did get your letters, and received everything
ok.--I did send you an e-mail but you might not have
received it.
73,s, Rene, K1MVP

P.S., If you need any other parts for the power supply,
let me know, and will search my "junkbox".

[w5alt]

Quote[/b] (km1r @ Dec. 04 2005,19:49)]I can't begin to list how many times I am trying to work a DX station on 30m, when some robot controlled digital rockrusher opens up on top of the qso and wipes it out. Or even better, when a DX station is running a pileup and the robot (not hearing the weak DX) comes up and blasts it to smithereens.
Mike, I've made about 600 or so 30m QSO's this year and never noticed any terrible QRM other than from some commercial stuff. And I'm sure they run well over 200 watts legally. Are you sure it's not the commercial stations causing you problems?

73,
Walt, W5ALT

[ky5u]

Whatever the issue Walt, articles which call for good behavior and getting along on the air are what we need.

[aa1mn]

Quote[/b] ]Why should WE have to QSY or turn off the radio
just because of some "jerk", who thinks he has an
"inalienable right" to spew out anything and everything on the air.

You don't have to turn off the radio because someone you think is a jerk spews out anything and everything on the air.

You don't have to listen to 'em either, the choice is yours. Any more than you're forced to read or view pornography.

What you DON'T have the right to do is decide for ME if I want to listen to 'em or not and if you too damn stupid or too damn lazy to shut it off you shouldn't complain about SOMEONE ELSE'S behavior but, instead, should complain about YOURS!

Chuck, AA1MN

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Dec. 05 2005,14:09)]What you DON'T have the right to do is decide for ME if I want to listen to 'em or not and if you too damn stupid or too damn lazy to shut it off you shouldn't complain about SOMEONE ELSE'S behavior but, instead, should complain about YOURS!

Chuck, AA1MN[/b]
If you want to listen to them,--yep thats your option.
Ya still miss my "point",--Why should this "crap" be
tolerated in the name of free speech?

As I said before, in my previous post,--the airwaves
ARE a "public medium" and as such there are certain
"norms of behavior" that should apply,--although I
question whether they do anymore in today`s world.

There WAS in fact a very basic rule on the old novice
exam,--years ago, that was pertaining to profanity,--
the FCC DID in fact at one time "strictly prohibit" it
on the air, and it WAS a punishable offense.(back
then anyway)--of course nowadays "anything" is
permissable, under this stupid "freedom of speech"
argument.

As I also mentioned in my previous post,--try yelling
"FIRE" in a crowded theatre,(a public place) just cause
ya "feel" like it, and claim the "freedom of speech"
argument and see if the judge, goes along with it.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # 73, K1MVP

P.S., this is just another one of the many reasons
# # # #ham radio is in the mess its in,--the mindset is
# # # #"we have to tolerate anything and everything"
# # # #in the name of "freedom".
# #
# # # #Just cause some "jerk" thinks he the "right"
# # # #to spew anything,--I am supposed to QSY,
# # # #or shut my radio down,--yep, sure.
# # # #And they wonder why we can`t attract young
# # # #people with any intelligence? --its no mystery to
# # # #myself and many others.

[KI4BNC]

I would never yell fire in a theater,or spew profanity on the air.
I think the use of profanity was prohibited with no bearing or relation to free speech.
Two different issues.free speech is me or anyone else saying something like the president is doing a lousy job/
profanity on the air is telling someone to go balnk themselves.it does not have to be microanalyzed or overpoliticized for the bottom line.If you think it might be profanity then don't use it.I think it might be one question in common on all the tests.
(ravings of mad HAMster).

[w5alt]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Dec. 05 2005,13:12)]Whatever the issue Walt, articles which call for good behavior and getting along on the air are what we need.
I agree, Charlie. I just hope we make sure that we don't blame "bad behavior" on the wrong people. On 30m we have secondary privileges, so if a commercial station is QRMing us, we're in the wrong. If it's a ham, then that's either an honest mistake or poor operating.

It hasn't really been mentioned and the author didn't tackle the subject, but another aspect is when a ham thinks he's being intentionally QRMed and it really is an honest error. Those things happen and we need to be understanding and tolerant. Of course not listening and intentional QRM is a different matter. But that's not the same as the subject of the article.

As the author points out quite clearly, the only behavior we can control is our own, individually.

73,
Walt, W5ALT

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Dec. 05 2005,14:09)]What you DON'T have the right to do is decide for ME if I want to listen to 'em or not and if you too damn stupid or too damn lazy to shut it off you shouldn't complain about SOMEONE ELSE'S behavior but, instead, should complain about YOURS!

Chuck, AA1MN[/b]
Chuck,

Now I do agree, people should twirl the dial more when they hear that kind of crap, including the low brows who are in the conversation with our social skid-mark friend. And I agree nobody can tell you whether you can or can't listen. But this is about the squirrel doing the talking on the air, this isn't about me or anyone else listening. It is about the choices people make on the air. If you're being a putz on the air, it makes no difference if nobody is listening. A jerk is a jerk.

What's more, it isn't my place to judge you any further than twirling the knob somewhere else. It's about YOU having the common sense to know yourself when you're being a weenie on the air and not trying to pass it off as some kind of free speech.

[aa1mn]

Quote[/b] ]Ya still miss my "point",--Why should this "crap" be
tolerated in the name of free speech?

As I said before, in my previous post,--the airwaves
ARE a "public medium" and as such there are certain
"norms of behavior" that should apply,--although I
question whether they do anymore in today`s world.


No, it is you who missed the point as you answered your own question because the airwaves are a public medium -- as you pointed out -- and fall (or should fall) under the free speech amendment.

As it stands now the FCC is being overly restrictive in prohibiting the use of certain language (such as obscenity) on amateur and broadcast bands.

The norms of behavior, which you again refer to, are prohibited by laws which (rightfully so) prevent the use of speech which is libelous, defamortory or may endanger the lives of others -- which, as you again answered your own question by citing the example of yelling fire in a crowded theater.

You are not required to "tolerate" anything on the amateur airwaves you don't wish to listen to ... everyone has the option of shutting off the radio, changing to a different frequency or band or not even owning one to begin with ... anyone who does not posess the intelligence to fully comprehend this otherwise simple fact should not be allowed to procreate much less be an amateur radio operator ... they're just too damn stupid to do so.

Perhaps you missed this point in my previous post, if so please reread till understood.

Chuck, AA1MN

[aa1mn]

Quote[/b] ]What's more, it isn't my place to judge you any further than twirling the knob somewhere else. It's about YOU having the common sense to know yourself when you're being a weenie on the air and not trying to pass it off as some kind of free speech.

I must agree with you on all points. And I hope that the terms "you" and "yourself" is being used in the plural as well as in the singular here.

However, while I do, at all times, endeavor to employ common sense there are times when, for whatever reasons, it is subject to lapse ... sometimes unintentionally, other times not.

Also, not everyone -- licensed amateurs included -- is blessed with the gift of common sense either. To further complicate things, what you or I might consider "sensical" my not be what the next person does.

Yes, there are a few people on the frequencies whose views I don't care for and, for the most part, I don't communicate with them and I'm sure the same can be said the same of a few people doing the same to me ... I'm grateful for both.

Chuck, AA1MN

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Dec. 06 2005,08:56)]Quote[/b] ]What's more, it isn't my place to judge you any further than twirling the knob somewhere else. It's about YOU having the common sense to know yourself when you're being a weenie on the air and not trying to pass it off as some kind of free speech.

I must agree with you on all points. And I hope that the terms "you" and "yourself" is being used in the plural as well as in the singular here.

However, while I do, at all times, endeavor to employ common sense there are times when, for whatever reasons, it is subject to lapse ... sometimes unintentionally, other times not.

Also, not everyone -- licensed amateurs included -- is blessed with the gift of common sense either. To further complicate things, what you or I might consider "sensical" my not be what the next person does.

Yes, there are a few people on the frequencies whose views I don't care for and, for the most part, I don't communicate with them and I'm sure the same can be said the same of a few people doing the same to me ... I'm grateful for both.

Chuck, AA1MN




The "you" is indeed not aimed at you personally and is plural too.

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Dec. 06 2005,08:47)]No, it is you who missed the point as you answered your own question because the airwaves are a public medium -- as you pointed out -- and fall (or should fall) under the free speech amendment.

As it stands now the FCC is being overly restrictive in prohibiting the use of certain language (such as obscenity) on amateur and broadcast bands.
Well, you have your "opinion" and I have mine, and
obviously they are 180 out.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # #73, K1MVP