Bush Derails Amtrak

[KI6ASV]

Bush administration fires CEO and pulls funding. Amtrak is doomed. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Full story:
http://www.narprail.org/cms/images/uploads/D_Let_Laney.pdf

[n2nh]

Amtrak has been a getting a whuppin' by Washington for years now. Gotta make those cuts so that $70 Billion can be given in Tax Cuts. Darned the economy, tax cuts ahead.

[AC0H]

Amtrack has been a white elephant since it's inception. No matter the administration and no matter the amount of $$$ thrown at it they've never broken even. They are now $6 Billion in the hole and climbing. The only decent ridership they have is in the NE corridor and even that route won't pay for itself. If Amtrack had been a private venture they'd have failed years ago and rightly so.

We've been wasting money on a venture that will never be able to compete with air travel, PERIOD. This is not Europe or Japan where you are a half day, or less, train ride from everywhere. Which would you rather do from California to NY, 5 hours on a plane or 2 DAYS on a train?

[n2nh]

While I do fly, I'll take the train thank you. If you crash, you're already on the ground. You meet some very interesting people on a train. I can't imagine "Murder on the Orient Express" on a 747 either. Years ago, I booked a train trip to Orlando from NYC. It was reserved in October and left a few months later. The snow started falling as I got to the Penn Station. By the time the Silver Meteor got out of the tunnel in Jersey, there was already several inches on the ground. The airports were closing, they couldn't keep up with the snowfall. By late afternoon, most Interstates were closed - ice covered them and buses were pulled over to the side of the road. We got to Orlando in 18 hours - 2 hours late. The train was smooth, quiet, comfortable, warm and fast. The storm went from southern New England to South Carolina (as sleet). Some buses that were pulled over still slid off the road and into ravines and ditches. The airports were backed up for up to a week. In any event, I got there 2 hours late. Most who flew ended up cancelling their vacations. They ran out of time.

[KI6ASV]

^^^I agree with the above posts Amtrak has been a lo$er in the past and if it were not for the subsidies they would have been bankrupt.But recently they have been doing better financially and were on target to get out of the hole (ref. above link).

I don't think it's right that we can send billions in subsidies to other countries but we can't prop up an American institution like Amtrak.

I thought it was amazing how well Amtrak was doing post 9/11 and lately with the cost of diesel - they were headed in the right direction - toward profitability.

[K9QJ]

$6 Billion? Isn't that like um...3... maybe 4 weeks in Iraq?

[AC0H]

Quote[/b] ]While I do fly, I'll take the train thank you. #If you crash, you're already on the ground. #You meet some very interesting people on a train. #I can't imagine "Murder on the Orient Express" on a 747 either.
While romantic and a pleasurable way to travel, the bottom line remains that Amtrack can't compete. The scenery may be great and the food excellent but it's supposed to be a transportation system, not a government funded excursion. I wonder if people would still ride for the "romance" if they paid per ticket what it would cost without government subsidy, I doubt it.

[n2nh]

Heck, the Northeast Corridor (Wash, NYC, Boston) is so expensive that plane travel is sometimes cheaper. The allure of train travel in the NE is not in what you see, but that it's faster than air travel. Check the prices for the Acela - they're astronomical. Sometimes it would seem that they're balancing the books on those NE fares.

[WA5KRP]

Name a form of public transportation that isn't subsidized by the government. You can't. Even state highways and interstates get enormous subsidies or they wouldn't get built and couldn't be maintained. Airlines don't pay for the Air Traffic Control System or the National Weather Service, upon which they depend for day to day operations.

Amtrak doesn't go away because it consistently gets backing from Congress. Districts served by Amtrak don't want to lose rail passenger service. In many parts of the country, Amtrak is the ONLY public passenger service available.

I don't know how this latest move will play out. Amtrak has been a survivor of numerous Washington death threats.


WA5KRP
Texas

[KG4CGC]

Bush is under the control of The Sith. If Amtrack goes belly up, the jobs displaced won't be absorbed anywhere anytime soon.

[KI6ASV]

Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Nov. 11 2005,12:21)]Bush is under the control of The Sith.
But is he the apprentice or the master. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Dick Cheney does look suspiciously like Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[AC0H]

Quote[/b] ]Airlines don't pay for the Air Traffic Control System or the National Weather Service, upon which they depend for day to day operations.

Oh contrare.
All of those taxes on an airline ticket go directly, or not so directly in the case of the FAA, to air transport infrastructure. Just like the state and federal taxes you pay on every gallon of gas.

[W0LPQ]

KRP: Just as 0H has said, anyone who flies, whether airline, corporate or private pilot ... pays. Fuel taxes and landing fees help support the infrastructure.

For quite a few years people in government have been trying to privatize the ATC structure and make it a pay as you go thing. Bad news ..!

Landing fees alone are pretty darn high. For someone flying a light plane, landing at a major airport, it could well cost over $250. That helps drive some coporate and light planes off the field. Nice move, really helps the economy.

Bill, W0LPQ

[WA5KRP]

Quote[/b] (AC0H @ Nov. 11 2005,15:09)]All of those taxes on an airline ticket go directly, or not so directly in the case of the FAA, to air transport infrastructure. Just like the state and federal taxes you pay on every gallon of gas.
The airlines are not paying those taxes.



WA5KRP
Texas

[K0RGR]

So much for alternatives to air travel. Greyhound is basically gone, and Amtrak is going. If you don't drive, and can't afford airfare, you are screwed. As usual, the old, the sick, and the poor benefit from another Republican administration.

I had to find a way to Duluth without a car a while back, and was lucky that we still had bus service. It has gone away now. I'd have to pay a king's ransom for an airline ticket to make that trip today, or to any other big city in Minnesota if I couldn't get there by car. We don't have Amtrak service to my city, either.

[K6BBC]

If Amtrack can't keep itself afloat, lose it. Like any business. I don't want my tax dollars supporting trains just because.

bbc

[al2i]

Just like Big Oil today, Big Rail was hated throughout the land that it helped build and grow. Ultimately, the hostile regulations and de-facto subsidization of trucking brought the rail industry to its knees.

I remember reading about one regulation in particular that struck me as particularly egregious. Freight was required to be billed at the same mileage rate, regardless of the distance it was carried. If a rail line was to carry lumber from one end of town to another, it had to charge just as much per mile as it did for a cross-country haul. I forget if it was a national regulation or just some local stupidity.

n2nh makes a very good point about rail however, and I plan to use the rails a lot more in the future -- if any are left running.

[KA7RRA]

I was going to take the train from Seattle to the Dayton Ham-fest one year...

It was going to take about 3 days one way so I would have needed 6 days of travel. The airlines was less money and it only takes 3-4 hours of flying time...

I figured if I had to take that much time, I would just drive down

The bad part about taking a train out of Seattle is that depot is in a scummy part of town that stinks and their is a lot of winos and low life in that area.
dave

[KD7WHQ]

In the early 70's, the railroads made it known to the government that they were going to discontinue passenger service, as freight traffic no longer offset the cost in a beneficial way.

The government, stating that passenger service was a matter of national security, and needed to be continued, formed the National Rail Passenger Corporation.

The NRPC lost the majority of funding per wording in the documents creating same several years ago, as they were supposed to be self supporting by x date.

Read the first paragraph again, and you'll see the fallacy of the notion; it was always subsidised; it will never be self supporting.

Rail passenger service SHOULD be continued. It cannot ever support itself, especially considering some of the decisions made by Amtrak.

Those Superliners are a nightmare to ride in, in comparison with the 100 ton coaches I rode in in the '60s (open sided smoking car and all!). Even the streamliners of the '70s were better! The idea of being 10' above the roadbed providing a smoother ride is nonsense.

Sway is much more pronounced, as are the inevitable imperfections of the rails themselves.

As to the King Street Depot area, it's quite contendable. I have left my car in the parking lot a number of times, and have never been accosted.

Hopefully, Congress will see the light, and keep the service. It's still my preferred mode of transport, and it does serve a need.

Air is not the end-all-be-all, anymore than cellphones are..

[ki4mdc]

I think Amtrak should be used as local transportation. Like here in florida, all you do is drive there's buses (that don't go everywhere unless you change 50 times), but no "faster" means of public transportation like trains.

[N9XR]

Quote[/b] ]Amtrack has been a white elephant since it's inception. No matter the administration and no matter the amount of $$$ thrown at it they've never broken even. They are now $6 Billion in the hole and climbing. The only decent ridership they have is in the NE corridor and even that route won't pay for itself. If Amtrack had been a private venture they'd have failed years ago and rightly so.

We've been wasting money on a venture that will never be able to compete with air travel, PERIOD. This is not Europe or Japan where you are a half day, or less, train ride from everywhere. Which would you rather do from California to NY, 5 hours on a plane or 2 DAYS on a train?
Are you saying that Ham Radio should be dropped because it is "wasting money?"

[KD7WHQ]

MDC, I quite agree. Local AND trips across the country.

In this area, we have the Sounder trains running. A far cry from the systems set up in other cities, but a good start.

But, don't think to relegate rail to just local service.

As a point, with the upswing in business the railroads have had in the last 20 years, I really believe they could take it back on easily.

But, I know they won't..

[KA7RRA]

I took the sounder train to the last SeaHawk game last year I rode down with the drunks and road back with the drunks.

[KG4CGC]

http://mryamamoto.50megs.com/silly-crap/agencyman06.jpg

[ki4mdc]

Thank you KD7WHQ at least I can have some good ideas once in a while....... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif Again I wish some of the ppl here in florida would just brainstorm & come up with some public transportation for ppl like myself who travel 60 miles a day. But with Bush's brother Jeb as governor, I don't see anything like that happening anytime soon, and it would really help.

73 michele
ki4mdc

[AC0H]

Quote[/b] ]Are you saying that Ham Radio should be dropped because it is "wasting money?"
How much federal tax money gets "wasted" on Ham Radio?

[ve2nsm]

I for one never understood why trains were not more used and encouraged in the US, especially on certain east and west coast corridors. NY/Buffalo NY/washington or L.A/San Francisco with TGV trains like they have in France, that run over 300Km/h, so quiet you can hear the guy 4 seats away whispering and so smooth you don't even know you're moving. For trips under 1000Km or so, it beats the hell out of any plane.

[kl7aj]

Golly Gee Whiz. Maybe the railroads will have to figure out how to operate as a free enterprise entity. I haven't found the clause in our Constitution that says the government is supposed to bail out failing businesses.

But I guess I've worked for a living all my life....silly me.

eric

[n2nh]

Quote[/b] (ve2nsm @ Nov. 14 2005,01:24)]I for one never understood why trains were not more used and encouraged in the US, especially on certain east and west coast corridors. NY/Buffalo NY/washington or L.A/San Francisco with TGV trains like they have in France, that run over 300Km/h, so quiet you can hear the guy 4 seats away whispering and so smooth you don't even know you're moving. For trips under 1000Km or so, it beats the hell out of any plane.
There were plans to put the Mag-Lev (magnetic levitation) train in operation between Los Angeles and Las Vegas. It would've taken less than an hour to go the 250 miles but somewhere along the way that was derailed. Then there were plans to put one between Orlando International Airport and Disney World but in-fighting stopped that too. Right now the Northeast Corridor does have the Acela which is the same as the ICE train in Germany. It runs less than 3 hours from New York to Washington. It is having teething pains though and has been pulled from service at least 3 times.

U.S. MagLev Projects (http://www.surveycafe.com/surveycafe/trains.htm)

[KI6ASV]

As part of the $87 billion package to aid in Iraq's and Afghanistan's reconstruction, the Bush Administration will allocate some $303 million to rebuild Iraqi railways. That is a sensible priority. However, Stephan Richter suggests that U.S. voters should perhaps ask why their government can be so rational when addressing Iraqis' needs — while neglecting similar infrastructure needs in the United States.

Full Story: http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=3519

[KD6NIG]

Quote[/b] (ve2nsm @ Nov. 13 2005,21:24)]I for one never understood why trains were not more used and encouraged in the US, especially on certain east and west coast corridors. NY/Buffalo NY/washington or L.A/San Francisco with TGV trains like they have in France, that run over 300Km/h, so quiet you can hear the guy 4 seats away whispering and so smooth you don't even know you're moving. For trips under 1000Km or so, it beats the hell out of any plane.
Actually, in the SF Bay Area we have BART and Caltrain, both of which get pretty good ridership and have been expanded to try and alleviate traffic issues.

We also have the ACE train which comes from the valley and goes into San Jose, but it has been plagued with problems as of late-particulary being a few hours late sometimes, because they share trackage with other railroads hauling freight.

Course, because of what I just said, the other railroads probably won't be too saddened by the demise either. Its a shame, but it appears that rail isn't the way to go in the US except for perhaps commuting and some small corridors. I know they were talking about a high speed line from SF to LA too, but haven't heard much about that either.

If Amtrak was high speed everywhere, it might make a difference, but most people don't have the luxury of spending a day or 2 to get somewhere, we have to be somewhere as soon as possible.

[KD7WHQ]

I never said rail travel was for everyone.

Not once.

But compare it to CW (ooops, started it there);

Least common denominator.

What is more likely to be running in a disaster?

Isn't the roads.
Likely isn't air.

It's going to be rail. Trackage can be repaired a lot faster than what people will accept as roads. And note how fast service was restored after Katrina. The roads in and out of those communities are still under repair.

But the trains run.

A rail bridge repair/replacement might take two weeks, compared to a month for a freeway. Even a two lane would take longer than, but would equate well to the freeway timeline.

Land trackage, even less, as demonstrated by Amtrak themselves. It was actually the railroad they contract running rights with, but the point remains.

And if those people had headed for the station, and shipped out on the next train, instead of heading for the open road with the cars.. What traffic jam?

And that last is the reason for the push for light rail. End the traffic jams.

Amtrak could do well to step in, but without leadership and funding...

In the meanwhile, I am not alone in enjoying the sights from the train, as opposed to seeing everything from 8 miles up. Very not alone.

Curiousity, have you ever traveled by rail? I really suggest it, at least once.

It possibly will be the most relaxed trip you ever make..

[W2ILP]

bbc

I am sure if someone said, "Do away with Ham Radio...You would defend Ham Radio.
BUT If someone said that Ham Radio was not high-tech like cell phones and the Internet and is no longer needed even in an emergency; You, like most Hams, would say BUT WE NEED HAM RADIO FOR BACK UP.

Now you say that we should not care about Amtrak. If it can't be profitable loose it. We don't need it.
BUT
There are many Hams here who agree that WE DO NEED RAIL TRANSPORTATION FOR BACK UP, even though we have airplanes and motor vehicles (busses, cars, trucks, etc.)

The New York Subways were once privately run by three or four separate transit companies....BUT they couldn't make money when the fare was only ten cents...BUT the people needed them to get to work...So a quasi government organization bought them and took them over and joined them to the Long Island Railroad in what is now The MTA. This organization keeps raising the fares in order to stay in the black BUT it is indispensable and will never be eliminated. If the NY Trains remained private they would not be allowed to raise fares (as this leads to a strong reason to raise workers' base wages)...but a quasi government organization can raise fares when it needs to with the government's blessing.
We also have the Port of New York Authority in NY and NJ. This organization runs the major airports and they collect the landing fees. They run all of the bridges and tunnels and collect the tolls. They get away with doing stuff that niether a private corporation or a government bureau can do.

I dunno if it is all for the good or the bad BUT the trains, planes and cars keep rolling and that is what counts in the long run...
ESPECIALLY THE TRAINS because we need them now more than ever before to transport people and freight using fuel more efficiently than any other mode of transportation can.

w2ilp (I Like Planes)...but I need TRAINS!

[ve2nsm]

Quote[/b] (n2nh @ Nov. 15 2005,04:41)]Quote[/b] (ve2nsm @ Nov. 14 2005,01:24)]I for one never understood why trains were not more used and encouraged in the US, especially on certain east and west coast corridors. NY/Buffalo NY/washington or L.A/San Francisco with TGV trains like they have in France, that run over 300Km/h, so quiet you can hear the guy 4 seats away whispering and so smooth you don't even know you're moving. For trips under 1000Km or so, it beats the hell out of any plane.
There were plans to put the Mag-Lev (magnetic levitation) train in operation between Los Angeles and Las Vegas. It would've taken less than an hour to go the 250 miles but somewhere along the way that was derailed. Then there were plans to put one between Orlando International Airport and Disney World but in-fighting stopped that too. Right now the Northeast Corridor does have the Acela which is the same as the ICE train in Germany. It runs less than 3 hours from New York to Washington. It is having teething pains though and has been pulled from service at least 3 times.

U.S. MagLev Projects (http://www.surveycafe.com/surveycafe/trains.htm)
Strange, for a country that was "discovered" "colonized" (I don't find the word) by railroad, to see that trains are not the #1 transportation after planes is rather odd. When you look at US history, there is always a train somewhere, they were like the pioneers.
Now they have greyhound buses... ewww.

[K3XR]

Greyhound and Trailways #have managed to survive as private transportation services. #The government should not be in the railroad business. The rat hole for tax dollars, known as#Amtrak, needs to be run by private enterprise. #Next thing, the leftist, socialist, will be wanting the government to take over the airline industry.

[KF0RT]

Does Amtrak run commuter lines? I thought they were mostly in the "long-haul" passenger business, but could well be wrong.

The comparison to ham radio is disingenious at best. Ham radio costs the feds nothing outside of some minimal clerical work and Riley Hollingsworth's salary. If we each kicked in a buck, Riley would get a nice raise.

Are there any mass transit systems in this country that break even financially? I doubt it, but that's okay. The point is that we should always look at what it costs and what we get in return.

73, Rob

[KF0RT]

Quote[/b] (ve2nsm @ Nov. 16 2005,19:58)]Quote[/b] (n2nh @ Nov. 15 2005,04:41)]Quote[/b] (ve2nsm @ Nov. 14 2005,01:24)]I for one never understood why trains were not more used and encouraged in the US, especially on certain east and west coast corridors. NY/Buffalo NY/washington or L.A/San Francisco with TGV trains like they have in France, that run over 300Km/h, so quiet you can hear the guy 4 seats away whispering and so smooth you don't even know you're moving. For trips under 1000Km or so, it beats the hell out of any plane.
There were plans to put the Mag-Lev (magnetic levitation) train in operation between Los Angeles and Las Vegas. It would've taken less than an hour to go the 250 miles but somewhere along the way that was derailed. Then there were plans to put one between Orlando International Airport and Disney World but in-fighting stopped that too. Right now the Northeast Corridor does have the Acela which is the same as the ICE train in Germany. It runs less than 3 hours from New York to Washington. It is having teething pains though and has been pulled from service at least 3 times.

U.S. MagLev Projects (http://www.surveycafe.com/surveycafe/trains.htm)
Strange, for a country that was "discovered" "colonized" (I don't find the word) by railroad, to see that trains are not the #1 transportation after planes is rather odd. When you look at US history, there is always a train somewhere, they were like the pioneers.
Now they have greyhound buses... ewww.
Well, trains are still a HUGE part of U.S. commerce. They may well be #2 after planes, but are not generally used for cross-country transportation of people. Too slow.

I see trains all the time, but they're carrying boxcars of "product" or tankers of chemicals or coal. A 200-car coal train is an amazing sight, and you can see one every day here. And, they're operated by companies that make a profit.

General Electric still has an active design team working on new locomotives. Better, faster, cheaper, and more friendly to the environment.

Trains are far from dying here. But, they're not practical for moving people except where they've been designed for it (a few urban corridors have this right, but not many). Greyhound busses work because the majority of this country has no rail lines.

The love affair with trains is far from over, but it's been a long time since it was practical for moving passengers between the coasts.

73, Rob

[n2nh]

Quote[/b] (ve2nsm @ Nov. 16 2005,23:58)]Quote[/b] (n2nh @ Nov. 15 2005,04:41)]Quote[/b] (ve2nsm @ Nov. 14 2005,01:24)]I for one never understood why trains were not more used and encouraged in the US, especially on certain east and west coast corridors. NY/Buffalo NY/washington or L.A/San Francisco with TGV trains like they have in France, that run over 300Km/h, so quiet you can hear the guy 4 seats away whispering and so smooth you don't even know you're moving. For trips under 1000Km or so, it beats the hell out of any plane.
There were plans to put the Mag-Lev (magnetic levitation) train in operation between Los Angeles and Las Vegas. It would've taken less than an hour to go the 250 miles but somewhere along the way that was derailed. Then there were plans to put one between Orlando International Airport and Disney World but in-fighting stopped that too. Right now the Northeast Corridor does have the Acela which is the same as the ICE train in Germany. It runs less than 3 hours from New York to Washington. It is having teething pains though and has been pulled from service at least 3 times.

U.S. MagLev Projects (http://www.surveycafe.com/surveycafe/trains.htm)
Strange, for a country that was "discovered" "colonized" (I don't find the word) by railroad, to see that trains are not the #1 transportation after planes is rather odd. When you look at US history, there is always a train somewhere, they were like the pioneers.
Now they have greyhound buses... ewww.
Worse yet, American know-how is what makes the TGV run. Many of the key components of the TGV are American made. The Magnetic Levitation train was invented here also. Back in the late 1950s, the first working model of a MagLev was running here. It still needed some bugs worked out, but the patent was given.
It's too bad that we seem to have lost the will to make things work.

Here in the city, there was an idea that a rail link to the mainland could be built. It would help NYC to be a primary East Coast port and cut down on the pollution here. It would also be used to run passenger trains outside of Manhattan. It never got off the idea stage. Without a freight rail link, more trucks come in every year and the pollution is worse every year too. Cost of every item is higher than it needs to be and traffic is a nightmare.

[KD7WHQ]

Amtrak has commuter lines on the east coast..