Is Kansas really that STUPID? [Archive]

K0RGR

11-10-2005, 01:01 AM

Quote[/b] (n3jja @ Nov. 09 2005,17:38)]Quote[/b] (N4UJF @ Nov. 09 2005,18:49)]I believe in evolution but there is a popular misconception about what direction it is going in.
Especially in Kansas, apparently.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
I have always enjoyed my visits to Kansas. And, contrary to popular opinion, they don't all have pointy heads, either.

I agree with my pastor from some years ago who postulated that God used evolution and the wonders that science keeps revealing to us to create and shape the world. I don't think that puts me in the creationist camp, either, but it may put me somewhat closer to the 'intelligent design' camp. However, I am not moved by the intelligent design arguments - I think there is considerable evidence that the eye and other organs have indeed evolved.

I believe that theory a great deal more than the radio evangelist many years ago who told his flock that the devil put all those dinosaur bones there to confuse us.

I don't have a problem with teachers mentioning that there is a 'controversy'. There was a 'controversy' when I was in school, and we were able to figure out our own beliefs in spite of it. Denying that there is a 'controversy' is as at least as unscientific as claiming that the Grand Canyon was created by the Biblical flood. It's easy to prove that there's a 'controversy'. There are even some alleged scientists, and many well-educated individuals who disagree with Darwin.

Personally, I think Darwin was probably right. In a few hundred, or a few thousand years, maybe we'll have a more accurate idea. Scientists today say that the proof is in the DNA - you can see the pattern of evolution in an unbroken chain from the simplest creatures to the most complex. I don't know about that, personally, but it sounds like a strong argument.

n0ov

11-10-2005, 01:04 AM

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Nov. 08 2005,16:50)]The people of Kansas have voted to teach “intelligent design” (creationism) is science classes. The real winners in this loser of a decision are students in China and India.

Say it ain’t so!

K6BBC
Frankly, I agree with this decision.

For the longest time the Theory of Evolution has been tought as fact and not as the theory that it actually is. To truely be objective, people need to be open to evaluate all options.

This way, folks are free to make "informed decisions"

Besides, consider this.

If you believe God make heaven, earth and Man in 7 days, how do we know just how long those original 7 days are? It is quite possible the theory of evolution may have happen during this timeline.

K6BBC

11-10-2005, 01:11 AM

Quote[/b] (w0pee @ Nov. 09 2005,18:04)]Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Nov. 08 2005,16:50)]The people of Kansas have voted to teach “intelligent design” (creationism) is science classes. #The real winners in this loser of a decision are students in China and India. #

Say it ain’t so!

K6BBC
Frankly, I agree with this decision.

For the longest time the Theory of Evolution has been tought as fact and not as the theory that it actually is. #To truely be objective, people need to be open to evaluate all options.

This way, folks are free to make "informed decisions"

Besides, consider this.

If you believe God make heaven, earth and Man in 7 days, how do we know just how long those original 7 days are? #It is quite possible the theory of evolution may have happen during this timeline.
Let my amplify and clarify my statement.

I have no problem with teaching “creative design theory” in a philosophy class. I got it in Philosophy 1 in college.

It has no place in a science class because it is NOT science – it is religion and that belongs in a comparative religion or philosophy class.

bbc

K6BBC

11-10-2005, 01:13 AM

Quote[/b] (w0pee @ Nov. 09 2005,18:04)]If you believe God make heaven, earth and Man in 7 days, how do we know just how long those original 7 days are? #It is quite possible the theory of evolution may have happen during this timeline.
Okay, why not.

VE7NOT

11-10-2005, 01:18 AM

f you believe God make heaven, earth and Man in 7 days, how do we know just how long those original 7 days are? It is quite possible the theory of evolution may have happen during this timeline.

Actually a good point and true. The hebrew word for day used in Genisis is day as in- the day of my father or --- in your day.... etc.

Yes although I don't believe in evolution period I do belive the days were quite a bit longer then an actual day. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

K6BBC

11-10-2005, 01:24 AM

Quote[/b] (VE7NOT @ Nov. 09 2005,18:18)]f you believe God make heaven, earth and Man in 7 days, how do we know just how long those original 7 days are? #It is quite possible the theory of evolution may have happen during this timeline.

Actually a good point and true. #The hebrew word for day used in Genisis is day as in- the day of my father or --- in your day.... etc.

Yes although I don't believe in evolution period I do belive the days were quite a bit longer then an actual day. # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Apparently you don’t believe in commas either.

kc7jty

11-10-2005, 02:29 AM

I think Kansas ranks #3 after Nebraska and IDAHO in the muttonhead lineup. They still think George W Bush is a good guy.

W5HTW

11-10-2005, 02:43 AM

The Easter Bunny did it

KD7ZRT

11-10-2005, 03:18 AM

I have no problem with creationi^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H"intelligent design" being taught in schools, so long as other valid alternative theories (http://www.venganza.org/) are presented as well. Heck, I think in our ever increasingly integrated society, a review of world religions might be a good idea. Students could study Christianity alongside Zoroastrianism, Vodun, Germanic Neopaganism, Atenism, Mithraism and a wide range of equally plausible beliefs.

That being the said, I completely agree with the poster saying this doesn't belong in science class.

I hope the people of Kansas know the rest of the world is laughing at them right now.

kc7jty

11-10-2005, 03:21 AM

Quote[/b] (KD7ZRT @ Nov. 08 2005,21:18)]I hope the people of Kansas know the rest of the world is laughing at them right now.
They couldn't care less. They know the're going to heaven.....and those laughing.....HELLBOUND.

KC2ESD

11-10-2005, 05:00 AM

Kansas wants less Tornadoes and are part of the Bible Belt. Leave Kansas alone. At least they don't have Darth Corzine as Govenor. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

kf6rdn

11-10-2005, 05:16 AM

I'm not saying nuttin about no other states being dumb about voting after this debacle that morons in california did... Or DIDN'T do...

wv6z

11-10-2005, 07:17 AM

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Nov. 08 2005,19:24)]Quote[/b] (VE7NOT @ Nov. 09 2005,18:18)]f you believe God make heaven, earth and Man in 7 days, how do we know just how long those original 7 days are? #It is quite possible the theory of evolution may have happen during this timeline.

Actually a good point and true. #The hebrew word for day used in Genisis is day as in- the day of my father or --- in your day.... etc.

Yes although I don't believe in evolution period I do belive the days were quite a bit longer then an actual day. # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Apparently you don’t believe in commas either.
Andashedoesn'tseemtolikecommasithinkiwilljuststopw ithwordseparationsmyselfandstartallofmysentenceswi
thprepositionsjusttoreallygeteveryonetickedoffbutg ood!

W2LYS

11-10-2005, 07:30 AM

Quote[/b] ]Would that be "Intelligent Design" or some form of "De-Evolution"?

You need to talk to Devo about that one...

wv6z

11-10-2005, 07:38 AM

Quote[/b] (W2LYS @ Nov. 09 2005,01:30)]Quote[/b] ]Would that be "Intelligent Design" or some form of "De-Evolution"?

You need to talk to Devo about that one...
The band or the paint manufacturer?

KG4CGC

11-10-2005, 07:46 AM

The Earth is flat.

VE7NOT

11-10-2005, 07:51 AM

Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Nov. 10 2005,00:46)]The Earth is flat.
Isaih 40:22 would disagre with that http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Besides the bible alot of early people actually though the earth was round. In fact I remember reading of an egyptian who actually measured the the circle of the earth to withing a few miles using sunlight between two points.

KG4CGC

11-10-2005, 08:05 AM

Quote[/b] (VE7NOT @ Nov. 10 2005,02:51)]Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Nov. 10 2005,00:46)]The Earth is flat.
Isaih 40:22 would disagre with that #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Besides the bible alot of early people actually though the earth was round. #In fact I remember reading of an egyptian who actually measured the the circle of the earth to withing a few miles using sunlight between two points.
"Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in."
# It just says circle. That could be interpreted as a disc.
They bible can be interpreted in many ways. That's why we have war.

al2i

11-10-2005, 10:35 AM

Pardon me while I break into a sudden and brief rant.

I am an atheist, but I wish the Christians all of the success in the world. If they bring back the Iron Maiden and re-ignite burnings at the stake, then it will be time to pour unholy water on their fervor. Until then, I hope they proselytize away and win millions of converts!

I am frankly sickened by the lack of basic ethical behavior in society at large, and at least when most people feared for their mortal soul, they kept their disgressions discreet. Everybody nowadays is looting, lying, cheating and scheming. I know they always did these things, but the incidence was lower before public education (indoctrination) of our young became the nearly exclusive province of the incredibly amoral, or even immoral government thugs who pass for "teachers" these days.

Thank you for the opportunity to vent. I now return your computer to its previously banal employment.

Dave/al2i

G8ADD

11-10-2005, 11:12 AM

This "intelligent design" hokum reminds me of the old Joke that the Creator must have trained as a Public Works Engineer (I don't know what the US equivalent is) because who else would run a sewer through a playground area?

73

Brian G8ADD

al2i

11-10-2005, 11:18 AM

Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ Nov. 10 2005,04:12)]This "intelligent design" hokum reminds me of the old Joke that the Creator must have trained as a Public Works Engineer (I don't know what the US equivalent is) because who else would run a sewer through a playground area?

73

Brian G8ADD
Brian is referring to the plumbing and recreational design of the human body.

(This is a clarifying, public-service message.)

n2nh

11-10-2005, 11:27 AM

Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Nov. 09 2005,19:55)]Those zany Catholics!

73, Rob
Kansas Religious Affiliations:

Protestant 60%
Catholic 20%
Non Religous 17%
Other Christian 2%
Other Religians 1%

So all of this in 7 days? And no living genetic relatives either. Nothing like ignoring the facts.
Now I can see why the 2004 elections went like they did. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

G8ADD

11-10-2005, 02:16 PM

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Nov. 10 2005,04:18)]Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ Nov. 10 2005,04:12)]This "intelligent design" hokum reminds me of the old Joke that the Creator must have trained as a Public Works Engineer (I don't know what the US equivalent is) because who else would run a sewer through a playground area?

73

Brian G8ADD
Brian is referring to the plumbing and recreational design of the human body.

(This is a clarifying, public-service message.)
Thanks, Dave, it was probably too ambiguous as it stood!

Now the jokes out of the way, lets see if we can come up with some other examples of unintelligent design. Since the creationists probably believe that God created man in His own image, did He ever need His appendix out?

73

Brian G8ADD

ve2nsm

11-10-2005, 04:12 PM

Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Nov. 10 2005,04:05)]Quote[/b] (VE7NOT @ Nov. 10 2005,02:51)]Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Nov. 10 2005,00:46)]The Earth is flat.
Isaih 40:22 would disagre with that http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Besides the bible alot of early people actually though the earth was round. In fact I remember reading of an egyptian who actually measured the the circle of the earth to withing a few miles using sunlight between two points.
"Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in."
It just says circle. That could be interpreted as a disc.
They bible can be interpreted in many ways. That's why we have war.
Well, everybody thought the same... the earth as a circle or disc. A disc is round and flat, not a sphere.

KD6NIG

11-10-2005, 04:17 PM

I'm just proud that, for once, California wasn't the first one to come up with a zany law http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

N0KLT

11-10-2005, 04:38 PM

Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Nov. 10 2005,02:46)]The Earth is flat.
I see you have been in Kansas, parts of Nebraska and the Dakotas. Those parts of the world are real flat. The rest? Who knows? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

KF0RT

11-10-2005, 05:16 PM

Quote[/b] (n2nh @ Nov. 10 2005,04:27)]Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Nov. 09 2005,19:55)]Those zany Catholics!

73, Rob
Kansas Religious Affiliations:

Protestant 60%
Catholic 20%
Non Religous 17%
Other Christian 2%
Other Religians 1%

So all of this in 7 days? And no living genetic relatives either. Nothing like ignoring the facts.
Now I can see why the 2004 elections went like they did. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I sit corrected (and surprised)!

73, Rob

K6BBC

11-10-2005, 05:20 PM

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Nov. 10 2005,03:35)]Pardon me while I break into a sudden and brief rant.

I am an atheist, but I wish the Christians all of the success in the world. #If they bring back the Iron Maiden and re-ignite burnings at the stake, then it will be time to pour unholy water on their fervor. #Until then, I hope they proselytize away and win millions of converts!

I am frankly sickened by the lack of basic ethical behavior in society at large, and at least when most people feared for their mortal soul, they kept their disgressions discreet. #Everybody nowadays is looting, lying, cheating and scheming. #I know they always did these things, but the incidence was lower before public education (indoctrination) of our young became the nearly exclusive province of the incredibly amoral, or even immoral government thugs who pass for "teachers" these days.

Thank you for the opportunity to vent. #I now return your computer to its previously banal employment.

Dave/al2i
Dave, Dave, Dave. Knock that ice off your head.

The country today is MORE overtly religious and less moral than ever. I think there is a problem somewhere? I have my ideas, but that would be more silly pontificating from wacky California.

bbc

KD6NIG

11-10-2005, 05:24 PM

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Nov. 10 2005,10:20)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ Nov. 10 2005,03:35)]Pardon me while I break into a sudden and brief rant.

I am an atheist, but I wish the Christians all of the success in the world. #If they bring back the Iron Maiden and re-ignite burnings at the stake, then it will be time to pour unholy water on their fervor. #Until then, I hope they proselytize away and win millions of converts!

I am frankly sickened by the lack of basic ethical behavior in society at large, and at least when most people feared for their mortal soul, they kept their disgressions discreet. #Everybody nowadays is looting, lying, cheating and scheming. #I know they always did these things, but the incidence was lower before public education (indoctrination) of our young became the nearly exclusive province of the incredibly amoral, or even immoral government thugs who pass for "teachers" these days.

Thank you for the opportunity to vent. #I now return your computer to its previously banal employment.

Dave/al2i
Dave, Dave, Dave. #Knock that ice off your head.

The country today is MORE overtly religious and less moral than ever. #I think there is a problem somewhere? #I have my ideas, but that would be more silly pontificating from wacky California.

bbc
There definetely seems to be a departure from the midstream, isn't there?

Either you are overtly religious, or you're overtly doing everything religion condems. Or, you're doing both to try and satisfy both sides.

Kind of an interesting paradox.

al2i

11-10-2005, 07:09 PM

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Nov. 10 2005,10:20)]Dave, Dave, Dave. Knock that ice off your head.
I am popular at parties where they serve mixed drinks. They say "Dave is so cool!"

Interestingly, your perspective that religion has been on an upswing completely belies what I observe. Perhaps you need to watch a "Girls Gone Wild" video or something to gain perspective. The official religion of the United States seems to be Hedonism to me.

Just look at the sick stuff made by Hollywood directors these days: Dark, Creepy, Evil. (Shudder)

K0RGR

11-10-2005, 08:12 PM

Quote[/b] (N0KLT @ Nov. 10 2005,09:38)]Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Nov. 10 2005,02:46)]The Earth is flat.
I see you have been in Kansas, parts of Nebraska and the Dakotas. Those parts of the world are real flat. The rest? Who knows? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
The funny part about that is they made a TV movie a few years ago of a story that was supposed to be based in Kansas. They filmed it in Iowa, because they couldn't find anyplace in Kansas that looked flat enough!

The '7 days' could have been 7 revolutions around the galaxy, or something... (or maybe it just fit neatly into the Sumerian calendar).

W2ILP

11-10-2005, 08:35 PM

I dunno much about Kansas although I once worked for a short time as a Field Service Engineer at Boeing's Wichita works, when they were building B-52s there.

AS far as I saw it Kansas people want to seem religious on the surface but can really go wild under the table. #I dunno if the laws are still the same there but when I was there you could not buy a shot of liquor in a bar or club. #You had to go to a liquor store and buy a whole fifth...and then you had to pay for ice in a glass at the bar so you could drink it. #I was only there temporarily...so I didn't want to leave my liquor bottle behind. #What could I do? I drank it all and I got lost driving back to my motel. #I'm lucky that I didn't get stopped by a cop because I would have been proofed positive. # The town of Wichita itself is deserted at night. #Nothing like NYC. #Since there are no trees on the Kansas plains all of the birds go into the deserted town to roost on the buildings at night and leave their droppings there. #I dunno if the natives realize why this is so because unlike a curious visitor like myself few venture into town at night. #I am told that all of the real action takes place outside of town, for those who are in the know. #Dallas Texas used to be that way too...except for Jack Ruby's strip club. # It might be different now...I dunno.

ENUF SED.

w2ilp (intoxicating Level Plains?)...Good for making air fields.

WA3KYY

11-10-2005, 08:40 PM

Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Nov. 09 2005,15:55)]Those zany Catholics!

73, Rob
Kind of backwards Rob. It's the Protestant fundamentalists that pushed for the inclusion of "intelligent design". The Vatican has stated numerous times that it has no theological issues with evolution science.

w8cbc

11-10-2005, 08:56 PM

There was a story Heinlen wrote - called Year of the Jackpot or something similar. He got the waves of sociological freakiness down all right. We're headed for a breaking point. Some time before 2010 I think.

Another, written by Fred Pohl and C. M. Kornbluth - The Marching Morons. We're heading there too, in so many ways.

w5klb

11-10-2005, 09:14 PM

I have been to Kansas many times. It's about a 30 minute drive or so from my house.

There are only two (2) things I have against Jayhawkers:

1. They can't drive.

2. They don't how to play football.

Other than that, no problems. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Post Edit: Yes Dorothy, there is REALLY a "Yellow Brick Road" located 45 mile NW of my location in Sedan, Kansas. No, Sedan is NOT the "Emerald City" and don't know of any "wizards" that live there.

WA3KYY

11-10-2005, 09:18 PM

This all reminds me of a an email I got with new versions of the state quarters. #The one for Kansas had a likeness of Paris Hilton with the motto: #"White, flat and easy to enter."

n2nh

11-10-2005, 09:38 PM

Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Nov. 10 2005,14:16)]Quote[/b] (n2nh @ Nov. 10 2005,04:27)]Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Nov. 09 2005,19:55)]Those zany Catholics!

73, Rob
Kansas Religious Affiliations:

Protestant 60%
Catholic 20%
Non Religous 17%
Other Christian 2%
Other Religians 1%

So all of this in 7 days? And no living genetic relatives either. Nothing like ignoring the facts.
Now I can see why the 2004 elections went like they did. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I sit corrected (and surprised)!

73, Rob
Actually, once you get away from the NorthEast, Catholicism is not very common. I was surprised to see 20%. Must be practicing the rhymn method.

"What do you call a woman using the rhythm method?"
"Mother."
-Robert Heinlein

N0KLT

11-10-2005, 10:38 PM

Don't forget that Kansas is also the home of he BTK killer and the 2 misfits that were the subject for Truman Capote's novel "In Cold Blood". Of course, Nebraska had Charlie Starkweather and his lovely girlfriend Carol Ann Fugate. Must must the wind or the flatness or something that brings that out in folks.

As for shooting some sort of movie that was supposedly in Kansas in Iowa cuz they couldn't find anyplace flat enough to look like Kansas in Kansas, I can only guess that the film maker never got very far away from the east edge of the state. I wonder where they shot it at in Iowa, I was born and raised in Iowa and can only think of a couple of areas that might be mistake for Kansas. Hope they didn't plant any sunflowers to make it look authentic. Years ago Iowa declared the sunflower a noxious weed. This did not please the wizards of oz at all. As I remember the legislature declared war on Iowa. This was back about 40-50 years ago so the shooting may have abated by now http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

KF0RT

11-11-2005, 12:20 AM

Quote[/b] (n2nh @ Nov. 10 2005,14:38)]Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Nov. 10 2005,14:16)]Quote[/b] (n2nh @ Nov. 10 2005,04:27)]Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Nov. 09 2005,19:55)]Those zany Catholics!

73, Rob
Kansas Religious Affiliations:

Protestant 60%
Catholic 20%
Non Religous 17%
Other Christian 2%
Other Religians 1%

So all of this in 7 days? And no living genetic relatives either. Nothing like ignoring the facts.
Now I can see why the 2004 elections went like they did. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I sit corrected (and surprised)!

73, Rob
Actually, once you get away from the NorthEast, Catholicism is not very common. I was surprised to see 20%. Must be practicing the rhymn method.

"What do you call a woman using the rhythm method?"
"Mother."
-Robert Heinlein
My bad. I was reflecting on the (rare) dealings with my daughter's in-laws and stereotyping based on that. They're part of the 20%.

I need to look up the figures for Indianapolis, though. That city's got to be mostly Catholic.

Er, and not that I have anything against Catholics...

73, Rob

KF0RT

11-11-2005, 12:24 AM

Quote[/b] (WA3KYY @ Nov. 10 2005,13:40)]Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Nov. 09 2005,15:55)]Those zany Catholics!

73, Rob
Kind of backwards Rob. It's the Protestant fundamentalists that pushed for the inclusion of "intelligent design". The Vatican has stated numerous times that it has no theological issues with evolution science.
Shows how much attention I pay to religious dealings these days. I learned something today. Thanks!

73, Rob

kc7jty

11-11-2005, 01:41 AM

Quote[/b] (KC2ESD @ Nov. 08 2005,23:00)]At least they don't have Darth Corzine as Govenor. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Only in the people's republic of Jersey.

kc7jty

11-11-2005, 01:47 AM

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Nov. 09 2005,04:35)]Pardon me while I break into a sudden and brief rant.

I am an atheist, but I wish the Christians all of the success in the world. #If they bring back the Iron Maiden and re-ignite burnings at the stake, then it will be time to pour unholy water on their fervor. #Until then, I hope they proselytize away and win millions of converts!

I am frankly sickened by the lack of basic ethical behavior in society at large, and at least when most people feared for their mortal soul, they kept their disgressions discreet. #Everybody nowadays is looting, lying, cheating and scheming. #I know they always did these things, but the incidence was lower before public education (indoctrination) of our young became the nearly exclusive province of the incredibly amoral, or even immoral government thugs who pass for "teachers" these days.

Thank you for the opportunity to vent. #I now return your computer to its previously banal employment.

Dave/al2i
So was the way of Rome before they went TITTZUP. It generally precedes the collapse of a civilization.

KG4CGC

11-11-2005, 01:47 AM

Been trying to find a news article to post about what P.Robertson said about Dover Pennsylvania today because they voted out the school board members who voted to teach ID. He told the people of Dover not to look for God to help them when disaster strikes their town for their misdeeds in this issue because God would not help them.
So Pat Robertson is God now. It's hard to keep up with who is God from one week to the next.

kc7jty

11-11-2005, 01:58 AM

Pat Robertson is better than God, he is an *ssole. Isn't it amazing how screwed up a person, group of people or their way of thinking can be when presented in the right/wrong light? One of that man's flippers is definately above the surface, but he IS a holy man. Must just be an anomaly.

W2ILP

11-11-2005, 02:16 AM

When you quote percentages about religious people you should also take into account the percentage of time that religious people actually follow the basis and purpose of their religious rules. This can vary greatly. IMHO some people only belong to religions because they don't like the religion that they don't belong to. I say this with no disrespect to those who love their God and transfer that into loving their religious leaders...and I hope loving their fellow men and women.

w2ilp (I Like People)...who like people who like all religions and all atheists equally....because people need people ...even with Gods help if there is a God.....i think?

KG4CGC

11-11-2005, 02:18 AM

No, these days it's about whos god is better than your god. Like children sticking out their tounges and going neener neener neener!

k6pme

11-11-2005, 02:28 AM

Quote[/b] (WA3KYY @ Nov. 10 2005,13:40)]The Vatican has stated numerous times that it has no theological issues with evolution science.
I glad to hear that they don't. It's about time somebody figured it out. Evolution and "intelligent design" mesh together quit nicely if only folks wouldn't be so pig-headed stubborn and start studying, learning and THINKING FOR THEMSELVES.

But hey, nobody ever listens to me. Both side's look at me like I'm stupid and I never get past the basic premise. Too bad they are stuck on the "party line". Reminds me of lemmings sometimes.

W2ILP

11-11-2005, 02:48 AM

As an atheist and a person trained to teach technology, I realy don't care much what theories are taught. #If people don't want to think that they might have a common ancestor with apes that does not bother me. #There is lots of stuff that many academics now accept and teach that is worse than the intelligent design theory, and that bothers me even more. #The Big Bang theory is in my opinion derived from initial CREATION myths and it surprises me that religious groups have not gotten around to debating with it more than they have. It says that we all evolved from a single "seed" that created all of the mass and energy in the universe. It is easier for me to believe that we may have evolved from apes. #Even if God created the whole universe in six days, I can't believe that he did it with a BIG BANG! It must have taken more than one bang with lots of creatures getting banged along the way. #It must have taken eons to design just our own galaxy, even though it wasn't a military cost plus fixed fee military project.

Theories are just theories. #They are not laws. #Examples of possible and impossible theories are theoretically good for kids. #The smart ones will make their own judgement. #God (if there is one) can help the kids and teachers who are too dumb to understand the weakness of any theories.

w2ilp (IDT Lacks Probability)...but maybe fills the cracks between fact and fiction better than Harry Potter.

KF0RT

11-11-2005, 03:17 AM

Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Nov. 10 2005,19:18)]No, these days it's about whos god is better than your god. Like children sticking out their tounges and going neener neener neener!
'Bout says it all...

73, Rob

kf6rdn

11-11-2005, 04:34 AM

Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Nov. 10 2005,14:14)]NOT the "Emerald City" and don't know of any "wizards" that live there.
Kansas City Wizards?

MLS Soccer team..
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

kc7jty

11-12-2005, 07:48 PM

"Take this, thy holy hand grenade of Antioch, with which to blow thyne enemies to bits (in thy mercy)".

VE7NOT

11-12-2005, 07:56 PM

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Nov. 12 2005,12:48)]"Take this, thy holy hand grenade of Antioch, with which to blow thyne enemies to bits (in thy mercy)".
*Chants like a monk while beating his head with plywood*

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

kc7jty

11-12-2005, 08:00 PM

Quote[/b] (VE7NOT @ Nov. 11 2005,13:56)]Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Nov. 12 2005,12:48)]"Take this, thy holy hand grenade of Antioch, with which to blow thyne enemies to bits (in thy mercy)".
*Chants like a monk while beating his head with plywood*

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Please brother Maynard.....they were books.

n0ov

11-12-2005, 08:25 PM

You tit. You got us worked up over a little bunny!

N9XR

11-12-2005, 08:45 PM

Quote[/b] ]They couldn't care less. They know the're going to heaven.....and those laughing.....HELLBOUND.
Judge not lest ye be judged.

I am from Kansas. It is indeed the best state to be FROM. Almost all of those state and city rankings in the internet come from Morgan Quitno of Lawrence, Kansas. Scott Morgan of that company was the school board president for a while. You can always see that he skews Kansas high in the education category, which either indicates that he is biased, or I am a scholar.

Lawrence, being a University city, did not really go for that creationism, fortunately.

I really have a hard time understanding how so-called Christians believe that Allah (Jehovah or Yahweh) has not the ability to have come up with the whole evolution idea. It&#8217;s like they believe He is weak and ignorant of such a design.

n0jaa

11-12-2005, 09:07 PM

Quote[/b] (ki4lzk @ Nov. 09 2005,19:27)]While I do live in Kansas, I didn't take Biology here. I do not agree that intelligent design should be taught in school, I do believe that it should be mentioned that there are some that feel a higher power started the whole evolutionary chain.

I do not see how people can say that there is no evidence to support evolution. I do believe in God... And have my own thoughts as to why things happen, but I still have to be objective.

I will be majoring in Biology and as such will be learning more about the principles of evolution.

Thanks

Josh KI4LZK
Evolution and Creationism are both theories, and should be taught as such, emphasising the fact that some people believe in one and some people believe in the other.

As for me, I prefer to mix elements of both, but I do not accept the literal six-day creation as depicted in Genesis. And there are some facets of Evolution that actually make sense to me.

Paul, N0JAA.

n0jaa

11-12-2005, 09:11 PM

Maybe Al Gore invented the universe!!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

N9XR

11-12-2005, 09:55 PM

Quote[/b] ]Maybe Al Gore invented the universe!!

Al invented Bush so both could go on vacation.

Republicans claim he invented everything. They all give him so much credit where I do not see where it is deserved. Republicans will worship anyone with more than 5 brain cells.

K6BBC

11-12-2005, 10:42 PM

Quote[/b] (n0jaa @ Nov. 12 2005,14:07)]Quote[/b] (ki4lzk @ Nov. 09 2005,19:27)]While I do live in Kansas, I didn't take Biology here. I do not agree that intelligent design should be taught in school, I do believe that it should be mentioned that there are some that feel a higher power started the whole evolutionary chain.

I do not see how people can say that there is no evidence to support evolution. I do believe in God... And have my own thoughts as to why things happen, but I still have to be objective.

I will be majoring in Biology and as such will be learning more about the principles of evolution.

Thanks

Josh KI4LZK
Evolution and Creationism are both theories, and should be taught as such, emphasising the fact that some people believe in one and some people believe in the other.

As for me, I prefer to mix elements of both, but I do not accept the literal six-day creation as depicted in Genesis. #And there are some facets of Evolution that actually make sense to me.

Paul, N0JAA.
Sorry, one is a theory, the other, magic.

KD7LDH

11-12-2005, 11:07 PM

Quote[/b] (n0jaa @ Nov. 12 2005,14:07)]Quote[/b] (ki4lzk @ Nov. 09 2005,19:27)]While I do live in Kansas, I didn't take Biology here. I do not agree that intelligent design should be taught in school, I do believe that it should be mentioned that there are some that feel a higher power started the whole evolutionary chain.

I do not see how people can say that there is no evidence to support evolution. I do believe in God... And have my own thoughts as to why things happen, but I still have to be objective.

I will be majoring in Biology and as such will be learning more about the principles of evolution.

Thanks

Josh KI4LZK
Evolution and Creationism are both theories, and should be taught as such, emphasising the fact that some people believe in one and some people believe in the other.

As for me, I prefer to mix elements of both, but I do not accept the literal six-day creation as depicted in Genesis. And there are some facets of Evolution that actually make sense to me.

Paul, N0JAA.
Sorry but Both are valid as neither has been confirmed or refuted...

Additionally, evolution sometimes in research is found to be incorrect

Evolution and The Bible can coexist...

I will post an interesting website later... Gotta Run...

K6BBC

11-12-2005, 11:40 PM

Quote[/b] (KD7LDH @ Nov. 12 2005,16:07)]Quote[/b] (n0jaa @ Nov. 12 2005,14:07)]Quote[/b] (ki4lzk @ Nov. 09 2005,19:27)]While I do live in Kansas, I didn't take Biology here. I do not agree that intelligent design should be taught in school, I do believe that it should be mentioned that there are some that feel a higher power started the whole evolutionary chain.

I do not see how people can say that there is no evidence to support evolution. I do believe in God... And have my own thoughts as to why things happen, but I still have to be objective.

I will be majoring in Biology and as such will be learning more about the principles of evolution.

Thanks

Josh KI4LZK
Evolution and Creationism are both theories, and should be taught as such, emphasising the fact that some people believe in one and some people believe in the other.

As for me, I prefer to mix elements of both, but I do not accept the literal six-day creation as depicted in Genesis. #And there are some facets of Evolution that actually make sense to me.

Paul, N0JAA.
Sorry but Both are valid as neither has been confirmed or refuted...

Additionally, evolution sometimes in research is found to be incorrect

Evolution and The Bible can coexist...

I will post an interesting website later... Gotta Run...
Please don't.

n2nh

11-13-2005, 12:23 AM

Quote[/b] (n0jaa @ Nov. 12 2005,18:11)]Maybe Al Gore invented the universe!!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
And here I thought it was Carl Sagan that invented the universe! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

w8cbc

11-13-2005, 02:40 AM

Evolution has a great load of factual evidence to back it up. Clear and logical progressions are shown us by the fossil record and in things that are running/flying/swimming around today.

Creationism has a book that was written many centuries ago by ignorant savages.

You choose.

Now, as to the Beginning Of It All. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle explains it. The theory of Cosmic Inflation clarifies it very nicely. In my opinion, the question regarding the origins of our little space-time bubble here has been answered.

As to where evolution is going... When we've blown ourselves away or otherwise eliminated ourselves from the earth - assuming we leave at least a marginally habitable biosphere behind - I think ravens have the best shot at becoming the next dominant land-based intelligence. That opinion comes from years of living in northeastern Ontario. Those big black birds definitely have something going on in their heads.

KD7LDH

11-13-2005, 02:46 AM

Ok I wont post a link:

But I do say Evolution and Creationism can coexist because:

1. Evolution could be a modern process but not an origin and the Book of Genesis can be interpreted literally

-OR-

2. Evolution can be a modern process and an origin and the Book of Genesis can be interpreted Poetically / Metaphorically

KD7LDH

11-13-2005, 02:52 AM

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Nov. 09 2005,15:50)]The real winners in this loser of a decision are students in China and India.
I went and read an article which said that in Kansas they will be teaching Evolution along side Creationism... I dont really see a problem with this... Im saying this to clarify and present my understanding which is they are not just teaching Creationism...

KF0RT

11-13-2005, 03:35 AM

Quote[/b] (KD7LDH @ Nov. 12 2005,19:46)]Ok I wont post a link:

But I do say Evolution and Creationism can coexist because:

1. Evolution could be a modern process but not an origin and the Book of Genesis can be interpreted literally

-OR-

2. Evolution can be a modern process and an origin and the Book of Genesis can be interpreted Poetically / Metaphorically
You missed Stephen Hawking's hypothesis.

3. Evolution appears possible because God made it look possible.

Nuthin' like cutting to the chase.

73, Rob

N9XR

11-13-2005, 03:44 AM

Quote[/b] ]I went and read an article which said that in Kansas they will be teaching Evolution along side Creationism... I dont really see a problem with this...

There really is no problem at all with it except for the fact that it is viewed as violating the Constitution with the separation of Church and State. What would happen in a Church if the Sunday school teacher started teaching biology or chemestry? They would be booted out of the church.

The context for the sciences should be in the schools. If private schools want to teach one or the other or both, there is no problem there. But most people would scream ( and rightly so) if their tax dollar was spent on abortions. The rights of others who have a constitutional right to not have to pay for teaching Creationism or have their children forced to learn it should be respected.

KG4CGC

11-13-2005, 04:05 AM

Quote[/b] (KD7LDH @ Nov. 12 2005,21:52)]Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Nov. 09 2005,15:50)]The real winners in this loser of a decision are students in China and India.
I went and read an article which said that in Kansas they will be teaching Evolution along side Creationism... I dont really see a problem with this...
The problem comes with the next step: Push evolution aside in favor of creationism. In the intelligent design theory, if it is going to be taught the way I think it is, it will be said that God made man per the bible verse for verse. If real intelligent design is going to be taught, one must say that it is also possible that aliens or what have you, made us for whatever reason and left us here.
You can not ONLY teach ID based on a religious platform, ie: God and the Christian bible. Those who seek to teach ID in a science class, seek to teach the fundementalist Protestant Christian ideals of creation. The seek to eventually take all thought out of the discussion and replece it with their doctrine.
There is no reason, at this point in time, NOT to theorize that whatever you believe to be a Creator or Higher Power or, God if you will, didn't put forth the processes in motion to CREATE the Heavens and the Earth and mankind via EVOLUTION.
I've had this discussion many times with theology students and the next tactic is to say, "well the earth is only 5000 years old and carbon dating is flawed". Brainwashing! Give me 3 weeks with one of these students and I'll have them telling you that the sky is green, east is west and the reason they were called cowboys is because the rode on cows!

n2nh

11-13-2005, 05:01 AM

Okay, what's next? Other religions demanding that we teach their view of how life began? Under the Constitution, that is a possibility. If that happens, there will be very little time for learning what really matters.

KD7LDH

11-13-2005, 05:48 AM

Quote[/b] (n9xr @ Nov. 12 2005,20:44)]What would happen in a Church if the Sunday school teacher started teaching biology or chemestry? They would be booted out of the church.
I dont see anything wrong with teaching biology or chemistry in church...

I have read that they are teaching evolution and also presenting information related to the THEORY of evolution - contradictory fossil evidence, contradictory molecular biology evidence, etc - They are broadening horizons - They are giving these students an advantage over other students because they are presented with additional facts-

What if info like this was presented:

Top Evidences Against the Theory of Evolution (http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/top.htm)

Google Search: Evidence against Evolution

Interesting stuff

KG4CGC

11-13-2005, 06:00 AM

Brainwashing. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

VE7NOT

11-13-2005, 06:01 AM

Quote[/b] (KD7LDH @ Nov. 12 2005,22:48)]Quote[/b] (n9xr @ Nov. 12 2005,20:44)]What would happen in a Church if the Sunday school teacher started teaching biology or chemestry? They would be booted out of the church.
I dont see anything wrong with teaching biology or chemistry in church...

I have read that they are teaching evolution and in addition presenting information related to the THEORY of evolution - contradictory fossil evidence, contradictory molecular biology evidence, etc - They are broadening horizons - They are giving these students an advantage over other students because they are presented with additional facts-

What if info like this was presented:

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/top.htm

Google Search: Evidence against Evolution

Interesting stuff
Actually most scientist believe in creation. Simple fact.

The link you posted just shows what most ignore.

KG4CGC

11-13-2005, 06:06 AM

What scientists VE7NOT? Which ones and who? I want to know where you get this information that you post here as fact.

VE7NOT

11-13-2005, 06:09 AM

Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Nov. 12 2005,23:06)]What scientists VE7NOT? Which ones and who? I want to know where you get this information that you post here as fact.
Ones I have read about. And should we quote Enstien or Newton?

KG4CGC

11-13-2005, 06:17 AM

Scientific fact or just an opinion?

VE7NOT

11-13-2005, 06:19 AM

They ones i've read about say they see no contrast between science and the bible.

KG4CGC

11-13-2005, 06:21 AM

Sorry NOT, that's your slant as you've had it told to you or as you want to believe it. You're entitled.

VE7NOT

11-13-2005, 06:23 AM

Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Nov. 12 2005,23:21)]Sorry NOT, that's your slant as you've had it told to you or as you want to believe it. You're entitled.
No. I studied both. Found alot of the same facts as the above link. And i can say personaly having read 4/5 of the bible there is no contridiction between scientific FACT and the bible

KG4CGC

11-13-2005, 06:36 AM

We'll just have to agree to disagree because there is no point in slugging it out. I stand behind my previous posts, especially this one:

"The problem comes with the next step: Push evolution aside in favor of creationism. In the intelligent design theory, if it is going to be taught the way I think it is, it will be said that God made man per the bible verse for verse. If real intelligent design is going to be taught, one must say that it is also possible that aliens or what have you, made us for whatever reason and left us here.
You can not ONLY teach ID based on a religious platform, ie: God and the Christian bible. Those who seek to teach ID in a science class, seek to teach the fundementalist Protestant Christian ideals of creation. The seek to eventually take all thought out of the discussion and replece it with their doctrine.
There is no reason, at this point in time, NOT to theorize that whatever you believe to be a Creator or Higher Power or, God if you will, didn't put forth the processes in motion to CREATE the Heavens and the Earth and mankind via EVOLUTION.
I've had this discussion many times with theology students and the next tactic is to say, "well the earth is only 5000 years old and carbon dating is flawed". Brainwashing! Give me 3 weeks with one of these students and I'll have them telling you that the sky is green, east is west and the reason they were called cowboys is because the rode on cows!"

VE7NOT

11-13-2005, 06:40 AM

Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Nov. 12 2005,23:36)]We'll just have to agree to disagree because there is no point in slugging it out. I stand behind my previous posts, especially this one:

"The problem comes with the next step: Push evolution aside in favor of creationism. In the intelligent design theory, if it is going to be taught the way I think it is, it will be said that God made man per the bible verse for verse. If real intelligent design is going to be taught, one must say that it is also possible that aliens or what have you, made us for whatever reason and left us here.
You can not ONLY teach ID based on a religious platform, ie: God and the Christian bible. Those who seek to teach ID in a science class, seek to teach the fundementalist Protestant Christian ideals of creation. The seek to eventually take all thought out of the discussion and replece it with their doctrine.
There is no reason, at this point in time, NOT to theorize that whatever you believe to be a Creator or Higher Power or, God if you will, didn't put forth the processes in motion to CREATE the Heavens and the Earth and mankind via EVOLUTION.
I've had this discussion many times with theology students and the next tactic is to say, "well the earth is only 5000 years old and carbon dating is flawed". Brainwashing! Give me 3 weeks with one of these students and I'll have them telling you that the sky is green, east is west and the reason they were called cowboys is because the rode on cows!"
I'm not going to argue either. However i disagree to the last sentance.

Ever been to the Calgary Stampede http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

W2ILP

11-13-2005, 07:52 AM

I once asked a very orthodox Jew who was also a science teacher what he taught to kids. #Remember that all the "in the beginning" stuff that Christians believe should be the same for Jews, as the Old Testament is believed by both. #His answer was that he taught Evolution in the Science classroom but he did say it was only a theory and that they might learn the Talmuds take on the subject if they care to debate it when they get older in a small group of Talmudic students. #Talmudic students can always debate anything that is theoretical and is not completely detailed in scriptures. #They can disagree with the interpretations of any Rabbis or other Talmudists and most often do. #Everything scientific is therefore negotiable...but there are some theological things that can't be touched.... such as the belief in one, and only one, God.

w2ilp (Israelites Logical Philosophies?)...the separation of science and religion came earlier to Jews than to Christians IMHO and that may be part of the reason that they have won more Nobel prizes.

kc7jty

11-15-2005, 01:46 AM

Quote[/b] (w0pee @ Nov. 11 2005,14:25)]You tit. You got us worked up over a little bunny!
My position on you has softened.

kc7jty

11-15-2005, 01:48 AM

Thats no ordinry rabbit, he's got a mean streak a mile wide.

Whatzit do...knibble on his bum?

W0MT

11-15-2005, 04:47 AM

If ID is not about creationism and religion, why did Pat Robertson say that the town in Pennsylvania had offended God by removing all of the jerks on the school board who wanted to have ID in the public schools? If ID were merely another scientific theory, removing the stupid members of the school board who supported ID should have been an attack on science, not God or religion.

N9XR

11-15-2005, 04:51 AM

Quote[/b] ]Quote (n9xr @ Nov. 12 2005,20:44)
What would happen in a Church if the Sunday school teacher started teaching biology or chemestry? They would be booted out of the church.

I dont see anything wrong with teaching biology or chemistry in church...

I have read that they are teaching evolution and also presenting information related to the THEORY of evolution - contradictory fossil evidence, contradictory molecular biology evidence, etc - They are broadening horizons - They are giving these students an advantage over other students because they are presented with additional facts-

What if info like this was presented:

Top Evidences Against the Theory of Evolution

Google Search: Evidence against Evolution

Interesting stuff

I have read the website from the Flat Earth Society, and it was interesting too. I don't believe any of it, but it was interesting.

You can say that there is nothing wrong with teaching Chemestry or Biology in Sunday School, but it does not change the fact that most churches will ex-communicate for that offense. I dare anyone to call a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church and ask if they can come and teach Biology to the children in Sunday School and get a welcome offer.

Also, by definition of Creationism, it is not possible to believe in both, Creationism and Evolution.

creationism

n : the literal belief in the account of creation given in the Book of Genesis; "creationism denies the theory of evolution of species"

You may believe (as I do) that the God of Abraham created the Heavens and the Earth, and you may believe that evolution resulted, but Creationism denies evolution. That is the Catch 22 that the Religious Right Wing want to not have everyone understand, because once you do, you realize the fraud that they convey.

The additional "facts" that you want portrayed are of the make-believe world.

Take Care,

N9XR

W2ILP

11-15-2005, 04:53 AM

Getting back to why I think any debate about Intelligent Design verses Creationism is foolish.

In central Pennsylvania there still exist Mennonites who refuse to use automobiles for travel or gasoline powered machines on their farms. Their reason is purely religious as they claim that they won't use anything that is not mentioned in their Bibles.

Now I must admit that they are ecologically correct in that they don't use gasoline and they recycle the manure from their horses on their farms. They never did anything harmful to me and I have stopped at some of the restaurants that they operate for some good meals.
Why should it bother me about what they believe or do not believe? In the same way it does not bother me if people want to believe in the Intelligent Design Theory and teach it to kids...so long as they don't do it to persecute people who may not agree with their theoretical application of science. BY forcing people to follow any theory that they don't like , we become just as dogmatic as they are provided that the theory is,in itself, not harmful to present day humans.
We can not persecute those who teach ignorant concepts when they are religious concepts and we need not persecute those who interpret science wrongly or develop nonsense theories.

Now if they said that F = MA (for low accelerations) or E =IR was wrong that would be different because engineers must accept those laws to design working machines or electrical devices...BUT even intelligent engineers can not design or evolve life forms in their own life time....Hmmmm....Unless it is just maybe evolving 6 toes cats or two tailed mice.

w2ilp (I Like Parrots) The parrots' beaks have evolved to be very hard so that the parrots can crack hard nuts better than other birds can. This might be believed to be due to Intelligent Design...Naw...The parrots are not intelligent. When and if they talk they only repeat what people say without themselves knowing what the words mean. Thus I think the parrots must have evolved so as to have hard beaks, as those with hard beaks survived better than those with soft beaks. To tell the truth if I had a parrot (which I do not) I would not care if he was intelligently designed or transparently evolved. I could teach him to say "Polly wants a cracker" even if he didn't like crackers and preferred to crack nuts. Preachers and teachers can teach what they will but hard nuts will never harm me even though most of my teeth are now artificial because I'm not a parrot. This message is original.

She's descended from a long line her mother listened to.
--Gypsy Rose Lee--

You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat-catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.
--Dr. Robert Darwin, to his son Charles--

Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest do not happen at all: The conscientious historian will correct these defects.
--Herodotus (?)--

Only a God with a sense of humor could design a giraffe.
--?--

KI4LZK

11-15-2005, 05:24 AM

I personally beleive, it is quite feasable that evolution was set into place by God. I also though, think it is important for people to be able to sepperate science from religion.

I pray for everything, and would consider my self a good christian. Part of that I think is understanding those who don't beleive. I don't hold anything against those that don't beleive or that beleive in a nother religon. If you all remember Christians, Jews and Muslims all came from the same place hihi. Also, and I know this is totally off target but... I think it is wrong a lot of Americans think that Islam is such an Evil religion. I think it, as with all religions, are not evil, It is when people that want to take over the world and cause human suffering start doing things in the name of their religion we have problems.

73

Josh

KG6JTB

11-15-2005, 06:20 AM

The schools should simply stick to applied science- in other words, things that can be tested empirically.

Dave
KG6JTB

W2ILP

11-15-2005, 06:42 AM

Josh I agree with you...

It is when the people want to believe that other people want to believe that they want to take over the world that we have problems because they want to believe that it is OK to take over the world before the people who believe that it is OK to take over the world do it first.

In my humble opinion this all started when Israelis bulldozed down the homes of native Palestinians in the 1970s on territory that was won and occupied by Israel in 1967. These homes had been the homes of native Palestinians for several centuries and this has led to hatred and suicidal terrorism that seems to continue to this day because all sides feel the need to take revenge....before worse is done to them.

I dunno if the Muslims want to take over the entire world. I'm not sure that GWB doesn't want to take over the entire world or just police it. Neither can take over the world.... even with WMDs.

Chicken Little run and tell Ducky Lucky, Goosy Loosy and Turkey Lurky that the Muslims want to take over the world. Watch out for Tyson, Swanson and Purdue. if they torture you fowls, suicidal Animal rights fanatics might want to take over your homes and leave you to starve.

Is it Disney Land Propaganda? Is the sky falling? Don't show it to kids. Take away the GP rating. We don't want the kids to grow up killing people for Chicken Little's pains, phobias or predictions. Isn't it enough that they felt sorry for Bambi, Dumbo or the Lying King?

w2ilp (Injure Live Poultry?)...but don't pullet.

KG4CGC

11-15-2005, 06:56 AM

Nice post.

al2i

11-15-2005, 08:57 AM

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Nov. 10 2005,18:47)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ Nov. 09 2005,04:35)]Pardon me while I break into a sudden and brief rant.

I am an atheist, but I wish the Christians all of the success in the world. If they bring back the Iron Maiden and re-ignite burnings at the stake, then it will be time to pour unholy water on their fervor. Until then, I hope they proselytize away and win millions of converts!

I am frankly sickened by the lack of basic ethical behavior in society at large, and at least when most people feared for their mortal soul, they kept their disgressions discreet. Everybody nowadays is looting, lying, cheating and scheming. I know they always did these things, but the incidence was lower before public education (indoctrination) of our young became the nearly exclusive province of the incredibly amoral, or even immoral government thugs who pass for "teachers" these days.

Thank you for the opportunity to vent. I now return your computer to its previously banal employment.

Dave/al2i
So was the way of Rome before they went TITTZUP. It generally precedes the collapse of a civilization.
Good point. Still, a lot of factors go into a civilization's stability, and I think ours weakens as Christianity is replaced by hedonistic nihilism.

wv6z

11-15-2005, 09:05 AM

Excellent post ILP!

G8ADD

11-15-2005, 09:58 AM

A theory is validated by making predictions which are confirmed by conducting further investigations. When the predictions fail then the theory either becomes discredited or is modified so that the contrary evidence can be accommodated. In effect a theory is subject to evolution. The Theory of Evolution has evolved considerably since it was first stated.

What are the predictions of the theory of Intelligent Design? To be a valid theory it must not only explain all extant observations, it must make predictions that can be confirmed by new observations.

Another thought:

It has been suggested that God could in fact have created the Universe in 4004 BC (or whatever date it was) along with all the evidence that it was actually created fourteen billion years ago. On that basis it could have been created ten seconds ago and all your memories were created at that time, too. But as Descartes clearly saw, there is no reason why God should lie to us. As I see it, any form of Creationism is based on the supposition that God lies to us. A God that Lies is not a worthy God.

73

Brian G8ADD

ka5s

11-15-2005, 11:52 AM

Quote[/b] (W0MT @ Nov. 14 2005,21:47)]If ID is not about creationism and religion, why did Pat Robertson say that ...
As fought over now, ID is "about" political power, not religion.

It's interesting that people who push intelligent design refuse to accept it when government imposes it on their businesses -- and their opponents insist on intelligent design for everything. Heh!

FWIW, it seems to me that evolution doesn't rule out intelligent design, but that the other way around doesn't work at all. Since one can SEE evolution in action, this is a fatal flaw to ID as it is presented.

We now return you to your Bhagavad Gita or other relevant science text.

Cortland
KA5S

n0ov

11-15-2005, 12:20 PM

I think ID is a sceme initiated by APES so they could prove we are not related to them. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

G8ADD

11-15-2005, 12:38 PM

Quote[/b] (w0pee @ Nov. 15 2005,05:20)]I think ID is a sceme initiated by APES so they could prove we are not related to them. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Now you're not being fair to apes, They're brighter than THAT!

73

Brian G8ADD

al2n

11-15-2005, 01:33 PM

Quote[/b] (KG6JTB @ Nov. 14 2005,23:20)]The schools should simply stick to applied science- in other words, things that can be tested empirically.

Dave
KG6JTB
I agree.

Micro-evolution, the study of evolution within a species, can be observed and tested. You will find few creationists that will have an argument with this. Species will adapt to their enviornment, this has been tested and verified.

Maco-evolution, the Big Bang and the transition from inorganic matter to organic then on to simple proteins, simple lifeforms and so forth cannot be tested. This is what the religious world has a hard time with.

Do you want to believe that we all came from a ball of hydrogen gas that somehow was able to transform into organic matter capible of going against the second law of thermodynamics? This matter then somehow came together in a sterile enviornment (stuff was super heated after the big bang) to form amino acids. That these acids came together to form simple proteins, and that somehow these proteins happened to come together to form a cell. And after this cell was formed, it somehow, spontaneously, became a living organism?

Macro-evolution asks us to believe that life came from inorganic matter. Simply put, life came from nothing by random chance.

Where did this inorganic matter come from? How did it become organic? How could these amino acids survive long enough in a toxic, super heated envoirnment to join together and form a protien? How did this simple protein molocule survive long enough to find others like it and form a single cell? Even if all this happened, you still have a dead cell. What happened to give it life?

Did not a french scientist (Louis Pasteur) prove that life cannot spontaneously appear?

You can either beleive that all this happened by chance and that we are the luckiest lifeforms ever, or you can believe that all this around us was made by design.

To me, it takes more faith to put your trust in macro-evolution than it does a creator.

You can say we came from Apes, but in reality, evolution asks much more from us. We came from super-heated gases.

Teach micro-evolution all you want. But tread carefully with macro-evolution.

K8ERV

11-15-2005, 02:02 PM

KRP where did you get that great pix? I snarfed it up.

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

N9XR

11-15-2005, 02:07 PM

Quote[/b] ]Also, and I know this is totally off target but... I think it is wrong a lot of Americans think that Islam is such an Evil religion. I think it, as with all religions, are not evil, It is when people that want to take over the world and cause human suffering start doing things in the name of their religion we have problems.

Well put there Josh.

Christian extremists took down the Federal Building in OKC. We don't blast the Christians in general for that terrorist attack. BTW. The attack on OKC was launched from Kansas.

IN NEIN EXAR

kc7jty

11-15-2005, 05:00 PM

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Nov. 13 2005,22:53)]Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest do not happen at all: The conscientious historian will correct these defects.
# --Herodotus (?)--
This one has been well selected.

kc7jty

11-15-2005, 05:10 PM

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Nov. 14 2005,02:57)]I think ours weakens as Christianity is replaced by hedonistic nihilism.
And I think a moving away from a reasonable, rational, common sensable way of thinking/living, weather it be towards a fanatical religion or away from it, is what weakens a people's ability to live in a workable civilization.

Ever been to Salt Lake city?

K6BBC

11-15-2005, 05:14 PM

kc7jty

11-15-2005, 05:18 PM

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Nov. 14 2005,11:14)]Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Nov. 15 2005,10:10)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ Nov. 14 2005,02:57)]I think ours weakens as Christianity is replaced by hedonistic nihilism.
And I think a moving away from a reasonable, rational, common sensable way of thinking/living, weather it be towards a fanatical religion or away from it, is what weakens a people's ability to live in a workable civilization.

Ever been to Salt Lake city?
Yes I have. #I walked into a Dennys and was called a freak. #

True story.
I used to drive through Salt Lake fairly regularly on I-15. I have come to fear, hate, not understand, that place so much that I now avoid it and the entire state of Utah like the plague.

Seems like half the town are devout LDS and the other half are former LDS who have gone insane rebelling against what they used to be.

W0LPQ

11-15-2005, 05:40 PM

Amazingly enough, Salt Lake City used to have a very low percentage of LDS. It is the surrounding suburbs (Bountiful, Cedar City etc) that were very high.

Last time through there was 1999 ... never been back. When I go to southern Idaho, I go through Yellowstone and down through Idaho Falls/Pocatello.

Bill, W0LPQ

ac4ut

11-15-2005, 05:53 PM

Correct me please if I am wrong but isn't evolution(origin of species) a theory of natural selection and not a theory of the creation of life?
Someone also commented that the Bible, or the original text that it was taken from, was written by savages.
I submit to you that the only difference between those individuals and humans of today is a little technology.
We are still savages ready to kill with or without cause.
How are we so superior? We still have no clue ,just better toys to fuel the debate of, why???
Whether you adhere to the belief in a higher being or not surely you must admit that the basic agenda of such writting as The Ten Commandments have solid socialistic value and without accountability wouldn't humanity self destruct at an even faster pace.

ka5s

11-15-2005, 08:08 PM

Quote[/b] (KG6JTB @ Nov. 14 2005,23:20)]The schools should simply stick to applied science- in other words, things that can be tested empirically.
Marx said:
"Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?"

GROUCHO Marx.

Cortland
KA5S

al2i

11-15-2005, 09:31 PM

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Nov. 15 2005,10:10)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ Nov. 14 2005,02:57)]I think ours weakens as Christianity is replaced by hedonistic nihilism.
And I think a moving away from a reasonable, rational, common sensable way of thinking/living, weather it be towards a fanatical religion or away from it, is what weakens a people's ability to live in a workable civilization.

Ever been to Salt Lake city?
Unfortunately, you fail to take into account that the religious nuts are actually more rational and certainly more honorable in large measure than the fruitcakes who represent much of the opposition to traditional religion in present-day society.

Giving kids a little bit of a good thing such as rational skepticism, and using it to tear down the creed of their parents culture often causes more harm than good, as it is not usually presented as a complete system of rational philosophy such as Objectivism or even Utilitarianism. The youth are then left without moral compass and are subject to numerous competing inputs as to what is ethical and what is not ethical -- resulting in a triumph of mediocrity and range-of-the-moment, label-driven solutions to moral calculus.

The character (character being the ability to make good choices) of individuals and society at large thereby deteriorates, and a deteriorated moral sense is accepted as normal from our leaders.

-al2i

wv6z

11-15-2005, 10:20 PM

Quote[/b] (WA5KRP @ Nov. 08 2005,17:17)]http://www.emerchandise.com/images/p/WOZ/pdTNWOZ0008.jpg

"Oh no Toto, the Christians aren't just in Texas anymore!"

Dorothy
Sorry WA5KRP, I couldn't resist! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

W2ILP

11-15-2005, 10:36 PM

In my opinion there are lots of science teachers who are not qualified to teach any science.
They may not have taken any college level science courses themselves and/or their college teachers may not have been exactly science mavens themselves. #I say this because I had gotten a BSEE degree before I returned to school and got an MSinEd. #High schools in the U.S.A. as well as state boards of regents are run by Liberal Artists...not Science Majors. The general run of so called science teachers at the high school level do not understand what is know as "the scientific method" by which hypothesis can be proved or rejected. #They are also usually weak in keeping up with the recent developments in biology, chemistry, physics, electronics, medicine, etc. #I admit that it is not easy to keep up...but now we have the Internet and can be alerted about scientific breakthroughs. #The fact is that many teachers have no interest...not as much interest as curious hams have...in the many "...ologies" of science.

# Also it is my belief that science and math should be taught together because if students can't see any application for advanced math they will not remember it or seek to learn even more advanced math. #When I was a kid I showed a math teacher how I used trigonometry to solve electronics problems. #He was astounded! #He never knew of any applications for the math he was teaching. #I have also met many science teachers who have no idea of the relative sizes and distances of the Sun and the Moon. #IMHO any number greater than 20 [fingers and toes] was too big for their imagination.

IMHO this is why Japan has produced more industrial scientists per capita than we are producing and it takes no genius to see that it is why Chinese and Indian (from India) students will be much better trained for real world engineering than the kids now going to high schools here.

Debating origin theories is foolish because we should be working hard on teaching science teachers science and its applications in the modern industrial world, which should be understood to be the most important part of their job. Origin theories are not needed to solve real problems involving physics, biology, and/or chemistry.

w2ilp (Increase Learning Practicality)

kc7jty

11-16-2005, 02:24 AM

al2i:
# # If the radical religious parents weren't so gdm'd far out & unreasonable in their beliefs and behavior maybe the kids wouldn't be so rebellious.....unless of course you take into account that which (in my opinion) is stirring the pot anyway.

kc7jty

11-16-2005, 02:27 AM

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Nov. 14 2005,15:31)]Unfortunately, you fail to take into account that the religious nuts are actually more rational and certainly more honorable in large measure than the fruitcakes who represent much of the opposition to traditional religion in present-day society.
That may be the way you see it.

kc7jty

11-16-2005, 02:37 AM

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Nov. 14 2005,15:31)]The character (character being the ability to make good choices) of individuals and society at large thereby deteriorates, and a deteriorated moral sense is accepted as normal from our leaders.

-al2i
Since when do the religious zealots make choices (good or bad)? They follow the teachings of their selected way like lemmings on the run.
Diane Ibbotson who appeared on C span some 2 months ago and was the topic of a thread I started is a perfect example. She was prepared to sacrifice her 2 sons (one already lost his life in Iraq) for the good...the cause...the right. Its pre programmed zombie people like her that scare me the most. No wonder the next generation has no guidance.

kc7jty

11-16-2005, 02:47 AM

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Nov. 14 2005,16:36)]Debating origin theories is foolish because we should be working hard on teaching science teachers science and its applications in the modern industrial world, which should be understood to be the most important part of their job. # Origin theories are not needed to solve real problems involving physics, biology, and/or chemistry.
Ah...but you are overlooking that which is much more important. The childish notion that the existance of god matters. And that state of existance (or not) supercedes anything else whether practical or nonsense.
We cannot procede with our lives until we have first said our prayers.

You are way too rational for life in this US of A my good man.

al2i

11-16-2005, 09:53 AM

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Nov. 15 2005,19:37)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ Nov. 14 2005,15:31)]The character (character being the ability to make good choices) of individuals and society at large thereby deteriorates, and a deteriorated moral sense is accepted as normal from our leaders.

-al2i
Since when do the religious zealots make choices (good or bad)? They follow the teachings of their selected way like lemmings on the run.
Diane Ibbotson who appeared on C span some 2 months ago and was the topic of a thread I started is a perfect example. She was prepared to sacrifice her 2 sons (one already lost his life in Iraq) for the good...the cause...the right. Its pre programmed zombie people like her that scare me the most. No wonder the next generation has no guidance.
Please. Calling Dianne Ibbotson a zombie is as cruel as it is incorrect. You are not a kind man are you?

The number of non-religious atrocities is staggering. I think Mao murdered 60 million or so and Stalin is accredited with something like 20 million. Hitler didn't kill in the name of God. Let's see.... how about Pol Pot.

People who are the unholier-than-thou anti-religious types are the scariest people of all. I try to keep business and personal transactions with the unholier-than-thou types to a minimum as a matter of self protection.

kc7jty

11-16-2005, 06:10 PM

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Nov. 15 2005,03:53)]Please. #Calling Dianne Ibbotson a zombie is as cruel as it is incorrect. #You are not a kind man are you?
Well I guess its all in the eye of the beholder. My position on Ms Ibbotson stands. People like her need to be purged from the human race. And my handle of pre programmed ZOMBIE fits her and her ilk perfectly.
Gentlemen: We are here to do the will of the Lord and we will perform that task even if it kills all of us. Throw that flake Pat Robertson a bone while you're here too will you?

al2n

11-16-2005, 06:52 PM

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Nov. 16 2005,11:10)]People like her need to be purged from the human race.
Comments like that make me glad you are not in charge of things.

What would you suggest for your purging of the planet?

Death camps? Firing squad? Gas chamber?

kc7jty

11-16-2005, 06:59 PM

Quote[/b] (al2n @ Nov. 15 2005,12:52)]Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Nov. 16 2005,11:10)]People like her need to be purged from the human race.
Comments like that make me glad you are not in charge of things.

What would you suggest for your purging of the planet?

Death camps? #Firing squad? #Gas chamber?
Let's forget the planet and concentrate on the USA.
A little common sense, and some sorely needed maturity among adults......and a distancing of one's self from the omnipresent, all pervasive Bull Sh*t that seems so very popular in this land.

al2i

11-16-2005, 11:17 PM

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Nov. 16 2005,11:59)]Let's forget the planet and concentrate on the USA.
A little common sense, and some sorely needed maturity among adults......and a distancing of one's self from the omnipresent, all pervasive Bull Sh*t that seems so very popular in this land.
Well, I agree wholeheartedly with you on this OM, but getting rid of the BS is in the eye of the beholder as well.

kc7jty

11-17-2005, 01:31 AM

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Nov. 15 2005,17:17)]Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Nov. 16 2005,11:59)]Let's forget the planet and concentrate on the USA.
A little common sense, and some sorely needed maturity among adults......and a distancing of one's self from the omnipresent, all pervasive Bull Sh*t that seems so very popular in this land.
Well, I agree wholeheartedly with you on this OM, but getting rid of the BS is in the eye of the beholder as well.
The truth is exact and incapable of deviation. Its the knowing and perception of the truth that challenges many.

KF0RT

11-17-2005, 01:39 AM

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Nov. 16 2005,18:31)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ Nov. 15 2005,17:17)]Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Nov. 16 2005,11:59)]Let's forget the planet and concentrate on the USA.
A little common sense, and some sorely needed maturity among adults......and a distancing of one's self from the omnipresent, all pervasive Bull Sh*t that seems so very popular in this land.
Well, I agree wholeheartedly with you on this OM, but getting rid of the BS is in the eye of the beholder as well.
The truth is exact and incapable of deviation. Its the knowing and perception of the truth that challenges many.
I'd buy the next round if you were next door, Bill.

As I've heard it over and over in Corporate America, "perception is reality." (Well, no, it isn't!)

Thank you, Mad Ave. We now have the largest flock of sheep ever. And, it appears to be growing.

73, Rob

kc7jty

11-17-2005, 01:58 AM

Quote[/b] ]I'd buy the next round if you were next door, Bill.
Don't get me started. I'm already feeling pretty good.

Quote[/b] ]As I've heard it over and over in Corporate America, "perception is reality." #(Well, no, it isn't!)
Yeah....and that's our biggest problem in a nutshell. What or who you are perceived to be is the only thing that matters. Who you really are is of no importance.

Quote[/b] ] Thank you, Mad Ave. #We now have the largest flock of sheep ever. #And, it appears to be growing.

73, Rob
And thats just the way they want/like it. The ONLY thing you as an American citizen have of value to offer is the fact that they may be able to suck a buck or two out of you with a slick diversion.
Where in the hell is Matt Lauer?
Oh....I'm sorry...I didn't mean to be unAmerican by being negative and critical of the system. Can I make up for it by making 4 easily affordable payments of $89.95 on your P.O.S. vacuum?

kc7jty

11-17-2005, 02:03 AM

And my rebuttal to the post that never came:
Are we to feel sorry for this airhead Ibbotson because she lost a son to the corporate and politically driven machine? To take her side and support the continued fall of our once great country into the dark hole orchestrated by the amazing George W Bush and his cohorts?
It may work on the rank and file dolts but it don't wash with this boy. I'm an AMERICAN dammit. I give a poppin hoot about what happens to us.

N9XR

11-17-2005, 03:26 AM

Quote[/b] ]Please. Calling Dianne Ibbotson a zombie is as cruel as it is incorrect. You are not a kind man are you?

Most of the time, we try to have parents institutionalized when they don't care about their children and willingly let them die.

What do you call putting a child on a street corner to wait for a bomb to go off and blow them away? It used to be a crime. Ibbotson was brainwashed to believe that this is what is best for her unwanted offspring. These soldiers are not fighting for Iraqi's freedom. They are just trying to stay alive. Are we inviting them back home? No. We tell them to stay there and wait to die. Do the Right Wing support abortion? No. They want to watch them die on an Iraqi street corner.

And that's the truth. Pfffft.

N9XR

KE7CWB

11-17-2005, 04:53 AM

The biggest threat to the continuing existance of the US "The Soccer Mom".

The 30-45 year old Gen X soccer mom/dad who has been told for years that they are worthless and their opinion doesn't matter. Tell em enough and they begin to believe it, at which point you have a perfect zombie who just believes the party line no matter what.

This was the voting block that got GW into office the second time.

These are the same people who sue when they get coffee spilled on them or their kid (who of course can do no wrong) gets an F in school.

The thought of these people running our country is scary, but that reality is coming soon as the baby boomers start collecting social security.

al2i

11-17-2005, 05:51 AM

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Nov. 16 2005,18:31)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ Nov. 15 2005,17:17)]Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Nov. 16 2005,11:59)]Let's forget the planet and concentrate on the USA.
A little common sense, and some sorely needed maturity among adults......and a distancing of one's self from the omnipresent, all pervasive Bull Sh*t that seems so very popular in this land.
Well, I agree wholeheartedly with you on this OM, but getting rid of the BS is in the eye of the beholder as well.
The truth is exact and incapable of deviation. Its the knowing and perception of the truth that challenges many.
Well, you talk a good line, but you certainly are not an Objectivist (I have been for about 20 years).

Your perception of reality -- especially the Jewish conspiracy behind every tree thing you have going -- is quite a bit different from mine.

al2i

11-17-2005, 06:00 AM

Quote[/b] (n9xr @ Nov. 16 2005,20:26)]Quote[/b] ]Please. Calling Dianne Ibbotson a zombie is as cruel as it is incorrect. You are not a kind man are you?

Most of the time, we try to have parents institutionalized when they don't care about their children and willingly let them die.

What do you call putting a child on a street corner to wait for a bomb to go off and blow them away? It used to be a crime. Ibbotson was brainwashed to believe that this is what is best for her unwanted offspring. These soldiers are not fighting for Iraqi's freedom. They are just trying to stay alive. Are we inviting them back home? No. We tell them to stay there and wait to die. Do the Right Wing support abortion? No. They want to watch them die on an Iraqi street corner.

And that's the truth. Pfffft.

N9XR
An absurd mix of assertions bombastically stated to be the truth. You are joking...right?

al2i

11-17-2005, 06:07 AM

Quote[/b] (KE7CWB @ Nov. 16 2005,21:53)]The biggest threat to the continuing existance of the US "The Soccer Mom".

The 30-45 year old Gen X soccer mom/dad who has been told for years that they are worthless and their opinion doesn't matter. Tell em enough and they begin to believe it, at which point you have a perfect zombie who just believes the party line no matter what.

This was the voting block that got GW into office the second time.

These are the same people who sue when they get coffee spilled on them or their kid (who of course can do no wrong) gets an F in school.

The thought of these people running our country is scary, but that reality is coming soon as the baby boomers start collecting social security.
It seems likely that millions of people would vote for Gore if they could go back in time to correct their mistakes. I am worried that the over-correction at the polls will sweep a Fascist of a different ilk into office.

Whether Left or Right, whether bad intentioned or good, we will probably be screwed by big government.

WY0COP

11-17-2005, 08:48 AM

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Nov. 09 2005,15:50)]The people of Kansas have voted to teach “intelligent design” (creationism) is science classes. #The real winners in this loser of a decision are students in China and India. #

Say it ain’t so!

K6BBC
So....lwet me see someone elses beliefs are stupid. If the population wants to have that taught in school...then let them.

It is probably the best addition to schools since fuzzy math...
{still counting pennies over the 39 cent stamp issue}

KB9YCO

11-17-2005, 05:02 PM

Not stupid, just not science. This constant whining by the extreme religious right about 'taking religion out of everything' is backwards, they are trying to insert religion where it doesn't belong. Religious philosophies are best left to a philosophy class, or a religion class, not science class where they discuss science, not religion. I just don't understand why the religious extremists are so arrogant as to presume that their personal version of the world belongs in a class that focuses on tangible evidence and theory that have some basis in research as opposed to faith.
Does this then mean that we should attempt to have evolution science inserted into religious classes that discuss creationism? Of course those classes would be mostly at private schools so the same arguments may not apply, either way the point stands. Keep religion seperate from science, and science seperate from religion. The extreme religious right just can't help but trying to force their view on everyone else these days, that's not to say there aren't extreme left groups doing the same, but two wrongs don't make a right, or a more free society.

kc7jty

11-17-2005, 06:04 PM

Quote[/b] (KE7CWB @ Nov. 15 2005,22:53)]The biggest threat to the continuing existance of the US "The Soccer Mom".
---------------------BINGO--------------------------

They know right from wrong too.....they saw it on TV.

al2n

11-17-2005, 06:09 PM

Actually there is science behind the ID theory.

For example:

The fossil record is devoid of transitional species. Darwin himself stated that the fossil record should be full of transitional species in his book, Origin of Species. This is not the case. We see fully developed species appearing sudeenly in the fossil record, not in a gradual path of development as stated by evolution. Where there should be hundreds of transitional species, there is nothing. ID supports this observation.

Also, the second law of Thermodynamics states that all matter moves from a state of order to a state of disorder. Evolutionary theory asks for the process to work in reverse. You have massive disorder in the Big Bang becoming orderly and highly developed. Again, ID and the second law are in agreement.

Louis Pasteur in his experiments proved that spontaneous generation does not occur. Evolution asks that spontaneous generation happen in order for matter to become alive and flurish. You can have all the amino acids and proteins you want in that promordial soup, nothing observed in science says that it can become a living organism.

Evolution is a theory that has some serious problems to overcome. It is a shame that most of these issues are largely ignored in the classroom.

kc7jty

11-17-2005, 06:10 PM

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Nov. 15 2005,23:51)]Well, you talk a good line, but you certainly are not an Objectivist #(I have been for about 20 years). #

Your perception of reality -- especially the Jewish conspiracy behind every tree thing you have going -- is quite a bit different from mine.
Would you like to discuss it in detail?
and WHY do you people always have to use the word CONSPIRACY after Jewish?

kc7jty

11-17-2005, 06:14 PM

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Nov. 16 2005,00:07)]Whether Left or Right, whether bad intentioned or good, we will probably be screwed by big government.
Hey...we agree on something. You are talking future tense though. I know it to be here already. A CONSPIRACY perhaps?

kc7jty

11-17-2005, 06:30 PM

Quote[/b] (KB9YCO @ Nov. 16 2005,11:02)]I just don't understand why the religious extremists are so arrogant as to presume that their personal version of the world belongs in a class that focuses on tangible evidence and theory that have some basis in research as opposed to faith.
Some help:
(1) Pre programmed Zombies?
(2) God tells them what every day and they CANNOT
understand why the rest of us can't hear him as well.
(3) Keep screwing around with this ungodly crap and you will
end up in HELL.
(4) The brainless wonders are incapable of coming to any
conclusions on their own. They must be told everything
by the likes of Pat Robertson, & Arnold Murray.
(5) They are really freetail bats disguised as humans, here on
earth to perform a mission?

al2i

11-17-2005, 06:34 PM

Quote[/b] ]The fossil record is devoid of transitional species. Darwin himself stated that the fossil record should be full of transitional species in his book, Origin of Species. This is not the case. We see fully developed species appearing sudeenly in the fossil record, not in a gradual path of development as stated by evolution. Where there should be hundreds of transitional species, there is nothing. ID supports this observation.

Actually, when population is high and the gene pool is large, large genetic shifts are much less likely. Unless there is a huge reproductive advantage to an individual's genetic change, it tends to be subsumed by the large pool of successfully reproducing and unchanged individuals.

In other words, change occurs most rapidly when a species is stressed and near extinction -- at least in the locality where the change occurs. This should be obvious, but the lack of fossil details at the most dramatic genetic shifts is always trotted out as evidence of an even less sensible explanation, i.e., "ID".

KB9YCO

11-17-2005, 07:03 PM

There's certainly more proof of science than there is of religion, not that you can argue what people choose to believe, that's what makes it faith. But if you want to look at it from a purely factual basis religion loses everytime.
My issue only lies in mixing the issues, science at least has some tangible evidence on which to base a theory, whereas religion is based on word of mouth, faith, re-interpreted writings, etc.
Why can't the two stay seperate? Teach religion in a religion or philosophy class, teach science in a science class. Instead the extreme religious right wants to cloud the issue and force their version where it doesn't belong based on what I consider to be specious evidence. Once again the extremists cause the problems while the rest of us see our cultural differences and respect them for what they are instead of trying to polarize everything.

KD6NIG

11-17-2005, 07:23 PM

Quote[/b] (KB9YCO @ Nov. 17 2005,12:03)]There's certainly more proof of science than there is of religion, not that you can argue what people choose to believe, that's what makes it faith. But if you want to look at it from a purely factual basis religion loses everytime.
My issue only lies in mixing the issues, science at least has some tangible evidence on which to base a theory, whereas religion is based on word of mouth, faith, re-interpreted writings, etc.
Why can't the two stay seperate? Teach religion in a religion or philosophy class, teach science in a science class. Instead the extreme religious right wants to cloud the issue and force their version where it doesn't belong based on what I consider to be specious evidence. Once again the extremists cause the problems while the rest of us see our cultural differences and respect them for what they are instead of trying to polarize everything.
I think what you're saying is what causes many people to scream foul against religion much more.

I've never had an issue with what people believe. Believe what you want. The issue I have is when the people who believe something try to fault ME because I don't, or try to shove it down my throat.

Some religions go way overboard doing this, especially the ones who like to knock on my door about once a month and try to sell me thier religion like they are selling me a vaccum cleaner. The same ones chastise me when they try to come onto my property through a closed gate with a BEWARE OF DOG sign on it, then tell me I should keep my dog tied up. They also ignore the no solicitors sign on the same gate. Not like my dog does anything but SNIFF them anyway, but already they are ignoring the warning and my request to not be solicited. I guess being sold religion isn't solicitation in thier eyes?

99% of religious people, like 99% of people in real life, know what they believe but don't try to sell it to you like if you don't buy you're in big trouble.

So I guess the question is, what if you aren't religious? I guess your kid can be yanked out of science and sent to study hall when they are talking about this stuff? Just wondering, its the same thing that happened when I went to school and the parents would refuse to sign the 'sex ed' premission slip-I don't see how they can force someone who doesn't believe something to sit through it...especially in a public school.

Perhaps Kansas is different in this regard?

ac4ut

11-17-2005, 07:33 PM

Quote[/b] (al2n @ Nov. 17 2005,11:09)]Actually there is science behind the ID theory.

For example:

The fossil record is devoid of transitional species. #Darwin himself stated that the fossil record should be full of transitional species in his book, Origin of Species. #This is not the case. #We see fully developed species appearing sudeenly in the fossil record, not in a gradual path of development as stated by evolution. #Where there should be hundreds of transitional species, there is nothing. #ID supports this observation.

Also, the second law of Thermodynamics states that all matter moves from a state of order to a state of disorder. #Evolutionary theory asks for the process to work in reverse. #You have massive disorder in the Big Bang becoming orderly and highly developed. #Again, ID and the second law are in agreement.

Louis Pasteur in his experiments proved that spontaneous generation does not occur. #Evolution asks that spontaneous generation happen in order for matter to become alive and flurish. #You can have all the amino acids and proteins you want in that promordial soup, nothing observed in science says that it can become a living organism.

Evolution is a theory that has some serious problems to overcome. #It is a shame that most of these issues are largely ignored in the classroom.
Yes, but we must establish what is order from a pespective of the universe.
Afterall we may be just a biological infestation on part of what was a stable mass at the center of a vast void.
Now in constant flux with an uncertain outcome.
I personally beleive that it has no choice to behave in a predictable pattern such as an electronic circuit.
If it does not behave as we think it should then we are probably missing something.