MEANINGFUL ENTRY-LEVEL LICENSE PRIVILEGES

[N2EY]

Quote[/b] (K1MVP @ Nov. 12 2005,07:38)]
Quote[/b] ]what a mess".
But WHY do we have this "mess"?
Think about it,--Is it the FCC that handed over testing
to the VEC`s 20 years ago as they no longer had the
resources(or desire) to be involved?



Partly. Consider how sharp that move was: FCC, who since its inception had done most amateur radio testing and all test preparation using its own paid staff, was able in a short time to pass all that work off to unpaid volunteers, yet still retain control. Pretty slick move, huh?

Quote[/b] ],--"IS it the ARRL that promoted the "lowering of standards"
through 5wpm requirements and the published question
pools, rather than the basic license guides that we had
30 years ago, to get the "numbers up"?


No. ARRL did not promote the 5 wpm requirements until 1998. Nor did they promote the published question pools. See below for the history.

Quote[/b] ]Was it the acceptance of the "Dick Bash" question pools
promoted or pushed under the FOI act back years ago?


FOI had nothing to do with it, either. But perhaps Bash did.

Here's what I saw happening back then:

Up until the VEs took over testing, the questions on FCC exams for amateur licenses were kept secret. FCC published a "study guide" that was a list of questions in essay format that indicated the areas the test would cover, but did *not* include the actual Q&A.

But in the 1970s, a fellow named Dick Bash got access to the actual FCC exams. By all accounts I have found, he did this by asking hams who had just taken the exams to recall whatever they could about the exam. He paid for the information. While one ham might not remember much, the combined information from lots of them enabled him to come up with books that were very close if not identical to the actual exams. He published these books and some people bought them.

There were folks inside FCC who wanted to prosecute Bash, but they were overruled. His books effectively destroyed the secret nature of the tests.

The whole issue became moot when FCC decided to hand
over the testing to the VEs, and the test question generation to the QPC. With thousands of VEs administering the tests, there was no way to keep them secret for sure. Even if they tried, someone could simply repeat Bash's methods. So the question pools were made public info. FOI wasn't involved.

Quote[/b] ]Why is it the basic Novice,
General, and Extra WITH the full CW requirement and
the exams given by the FCC was well accepted back in the 50`s and 60`s?


Whole bunch of reasons for that.

One reason could be that back then all hams were Morse Code tested - there was no other option. Another could be that before November 1968, full privileges could be had with only a 13 wpm code test.

But perhaps the biggest reason was the way most hams back then got started.

Until the repeater boom of the 1970s, almost all new hams started out as Novices. Most of them (actually us) were Short Wave Listeners (SWLs) before getting a license. Most would-be hams had an HF receiver and antenna first, listened to the ham bands, learned the code and procedures by listening to hams on the air, etc. When the license was earned they only needed to add a transmitter.

The old Novice allowed hams on small parts of a few HF bands, plus part of 2 meters. Morse code only on HF! And the license was only good for a short time (first one, then two years) and it was a one-shot deal. Upgrade or leave the air.

What all that did was to focus a new ham's attention on a few small subbands and on one mode - and to getting the code speed up and the technical knowledge learned before the Novice license ran out.

The repeater revolution of the '70s changed all that. Many new hams bypassed Novice and went straight to Technician even before that license lost its code test, because they wanted to be on 2 meters. The Tech written test changes in 1987 and the dropping of the code test for Tech in 1991 simply speeded up the process.

73 de Jim, N2EY

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (KQ6XA @ Nov. 12 2005,18:05)]"Meaningful" Outreach to Technician Licensees and Prospective New Ham Operators

I'm happy to see that the Morse talent test for the USA Amateur Radio Service will soon be gone completely. Along with so many other hams and prospective hams, I look forward to the day when this will no longer be an issue.

As the Morse hazing ritual moves to the annals of radio history... we really need to organize an outreach to all those operators who were turned away from HF and ham radio by the Morse talent test in previous years. The outreach needs to include any of the Technician class licensees who each of us may have met throughout the years, who may have drifted out of touch with the ham community now. They need to know about the licensing changes and the new opportunity for them on HF.

One of the wonderful aspects of this will be that amateur radio emergency services will be able to utilize HF in a much more effective way, with more operators having access to HF.
"morse hazing ritual" and "meaningful outreach"??

Sounds like typical "political correct" jargon
from other political agenda oriented issues that has
found its way into amateur radio. IMO
"liberation of the oppressed",--"rights of the minority"
#and the "list" goes on.
#Reminds me of some politicians we have here in the
"great" liberal state of Vermont.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # 73, Rene, K1MVP

[k9ekg]

Quote[/b] (KC0OFZ @ Nov. 12 2005,19:08)]AH personal insults, nice reply and very constructive.
Good to see your are the future of Amateur Radio with that attitude. Do you feel that no requirements is the way to go? How would you feel if this was just like CB for requirements? What would you do to keep things under control? It is interesting that NCT's like you want everything handed out but have NO solution on how to clean up the trash that is there and keep more from comming in. If wanting to have the bands under a little control and filter out some of the garbage is being and elitist, than yes I am one. True to nature you will continue with the personal insults and have no real solutions or conversation either. What a bright future this attitude brings to the bands. Wonderful indeed.
I'm glad you find the word elitist insulting. You want to talk about constructive and insulting? Lets start with YOUR post.
First, I am no more future than you. Be both create future for ham radio in our own ways. Who's doing more here? Someone sharing an opinion and you backlashing? Me calling you names and you doing so back? No one wins.

Next, I have never said that I think no requirements are the way to go for ham radio. That is just petty. You said we need filters, to keep out un-desirables I would imagine? That makes you an elitist. If you're not good enough, then to heck with you. Truth hurts. Want to advance the hobby, think on levels that interest people to join. Not like a whole bunch of people kicking down the doors to get into ham radio, especially when present hams like yourselves don't want them.

Next, you lump me into a generalization which is totally untrue, and quite frankly is the crux of many technicians NOT advancing; the fact they are left to feel sub-standard, second handed, disenchanted, and otherwise not suitable for the hobby YOU wish to filter. You filter your own "people"? I have never wanted anything handed to me. I have never asked for anything to be handed to me. I do believe the testing for morse code is not necessary to be a ham. HF to say the least. Simple. We will have to share our disagreement. I do know morse code, I did spend the time to learn it. You have no right to judge me or anyone else for that matter on what license class you hold. Extras and Extra Lights? Please! Now we subdivide even more...foolish.

CB requirements? Now you're getting rash....they are licensed by rule. Just because the FCC doesn't want to enforce the rule there is not my fault, not the Technician license levels' fault, or even yours. Not all CB'ers are bad and even many people here, whether they want to admit it or not, came from CB roots and "GREW UP" as some of you say, or more or less became interested in advancing themselves deeper into the radio hobby. Interested more in what radio can do. What's wrong with getting someone who is interested in ham radio INTO ham radio? Not to be just chastised as a CB'er and you need to filter them out. A catch 22...because you need that filter, right? I don't hear where the morse code test has filtered anything out! DO you listen to HF? Are you one of those swearing LIDs tuning up on top of DX down there? Swearing? Not ID'ing? Its no worse than CB many times! Your filter needs changing, because its clogged with B.S.

The technician class was not a loss for ham radio. Not keeping them is. Was the filter needed? Code or not, chastisting every technician you can and lumping us all together as sub-standard whiners and gimme gimmes is the type of gibberish that keeps people from upgrading, and keeps people from joining.

Here, case in point. You're a firefighter according to your little ending paragraph. So am I. I am also a Chief. I did not get into my position by getting things handed to me, I worked very hard for it. There is nothing in my station I cannot do, and my tenure in ham radio is no different. You know nothing about me, I know nothing about you. You think I am selfish, I think you're an elitist. So while you're running, you'd better keep up. I'll be waiting for you to come out safely.

Otherwise, we can sling mud all day...


Chris

[kc0ukk]

Quote[/b] (nc5s @ Nov. 08 2005,07:30)]
Why reward hard work and excellence when you can reward laziness and mediocrity?

I guess the same people would want higher education to stop at the Batchelor level. #After all, why would anyone want to "work" for a Masters or PhD? #Heck, one class of degree should do just fine.[/QUOTE]
The degree far less important than the education except where perception is valued over substance.

[N2EY]

Quote[/b] (k9ekg @ Nov. 13 2005,00:05)]
Quote[/b] ]CB requirements? Now you're getting rash....they are licensed by rule. Just because the FCC doesn't want to enforce the rule there is not my fault, not the Technician license levels' fault, or even yours.

That's true. But look what cb became, way back in the 1960s, without any license requirements. Back then
the FCC was trying to enforce the rules but they were
simply overwhelmed.

Quote[/b] ]Not all CB'ers are bad and even many people here, whether they want to admit it or not, came from CB roots and "GREW UP" as some of you say, or more or less became interested in advancing themselves deeper into the radio hobby. Interested more in what radio can do.

I agree! And having to meet certain requirements
to get into ham radio helped them "grow up", as it were.

Quote[/b] ]What's wrong with getting someone who is interested in ham radio INTO ham radio?

Nothing - as long as they meet the requirements and
follow the rules. What those requirements should be
is really just a matter of opinion.

Quote[/b] ]Not to be just chastised as a CB'er and you need to filter them out. A catch 22...because you need that filter, right? I don't hear where the morse code test has filtered anything out! DO you listen to HF? Are you one of those swearing LIDs tuning up on top of DX down there? Swearing? Not ID'ing? Its no worse than CB many times! Your filter needs changing, because its clogged with B.S.


What you describe is *not* being done by hams using Morse Code in the non-voice part of the bands, though.
When you say "do you listen to HF", you're really
talking about the *phone bands*, right?

73 de Jim, N2EY

[KC0OFZ]

Quote[/b] (k9ekg @ Nov. 13 2005,00:05)]Quote[/b] (KC0OFZ @ Nov. 12 2005,19:08)]AH personal insults, nice reply and very constructive.
Good to see your are the future of Amateur Radio with that attitude. #Do you feel that no requirements is the way to go? #How would you feel if this was just like CB for requirements? #What would you do to keep things under control? #It is interesting that NCT's like you want everything handed out but have NO solution on how to clean up the trash that is there and keep more from comming in. #If wanting to have the bands under a little control and filter out some of the garbage is being and elitist, than yes I am one. #True to nature you will continue with the personal insults and have no real solutions or conversation either. #What a bright future this attitude brings to the bands. #Wonderful indeed.
I'm glad you find the word elitist insulting. You want to talk about constructive and insulting? Lets start with YOUR post. #
First, I am no more future than you. Be both create future for ham radio in our own ways. #Who's doing more here? #Someone sharing an opinion and you backlashing? Me calling you names and you doing so back? #No one wins. #

Next, I have never said that I think no requirements are the way to go for ham radio. #That is just petty. #You said we need filters, to keep out un-desirables I would imagine? # That makes you an elitist. #If you're not good enough, then to heck with you. #Truth hurts. #Want to advance the hobby, think on levels that interest people to join. #Not like a whole bunch of people kicking down the doors to get into ham radio, especially when present hams like yourselves don't want them.

Next, you lump me into a generalization which is totally untrue, and quite frankly is the crux of many technicians NOT advancing; the fact they are left to feel sub-standard, #second handed, disenchanted, and otherwise not suitable for the hobby YOU wish to filter. You filter your own "people"? # I have never wanted anything handed to me. I have never asked for anything to be handed to me. I do believe the testing for morse code is not necessary to be a ham. #HF to say the least. Simple. #We will have to share our disagreement. #I do know morse code, I did spend the time to learn it. #You have no right to judge me or anyone else for that matter on what license class you hold. #Extras and Extra Lights? #Please! #Now we subdivide even more...foolish.

CB requirements? #Now you're getting rash....they are licensed by rule. #Just because the FCC doesn't want to enforce the rule there is not my fault, not the Technician license levels' fault, or even yours. #Not all CB'ers are bad and even many people here, whether they want to admit it or not, came from CB roots and "GREW UP" as some of you say, or more or less became interested in advancing themselves deeper into the radio hobby. #Interested more in what radio can do. What's wrong with getting someone who is interested in ham radio INTO ham radio? #Not to be just chastised as a CB'er and you need to filter them out. A catch 22...because you need that filter, right? #I don't hear where the morse code test has filtered anything out! #DO you listen to HF? #Are you one of those swearing LIDs tuning up on top of DX down there? #Swearing? Not ID'ing? #Its no worse than CB many times! #Your filter needs changing, because its clogged with B.S.

The technician class was not a loss for ham radio. #Not keeping them is. Was the filter needed? #Code or not, chastisting every technician you can and lumping us all together as sub-standard whiners and gimme gimmes is the type of gibberish that keeps people from upgrading, and keeps people from joining.

Here, case in point. #You're a firefighter according to your little ending paragraph. #So am I. #I am also a Chief. #I did not get into my position by getting things handed to me, I worked very hard for it. #There is nothing in my station I cannot do, and my tenure in ham radio is no different. #You know nothing about me, I know nothing about you. #You think I am selfish, I think you're an elitist. #So while you're running, you'd better keep up. #I'll be waiting for you to come out safely.

Otherwise, we can sling mud all day...


Chris
Chris
Interesting and good reply. #First I still feel that there is a need to have a degree of law and order and that will include the form of a test. #You stated you are a firefighter, well I am sure that you feel there should be requirements there as well, just as my department has. #Elitist, yes, and that helps keep people safe. #Now I know AR is not firefighting, but there is still a need to have some degree of requirements to make sure those who want to be there are there for the right reasons not just because it may be perceived as publicly acceptable. #Does that include a CW test? Maybe, maybe it does not, but it needs a degree of testing and help that comes from a club or at least one elmer. #
Flash forward to our two clubs here, I have personally helped out many hams, reguardeless of "rank" if you will or liscense class. All "new" hams have gotten a fine start here, from getting to use various equipment that I have to let them "try before they buy their own to see if they like it" to any kind of help they need, both in person and on the air. #With this they haved asked many questions and learned a lot in spite of my support of testing. #If this makes me not welcoming to new hams in some eyes, fine but around here it has and does work.
You find trash on the HF bands, so do I, do I support those persons? No, but I feel that you may be making generalization many do. #It is not working perfectly (i.e. CW test) so lets do away with it. #Thats fine, but how can you assure me and others that the problem will not continue to get worse considering what is also heard on the 2 meter side? #There needs to be a revival of sorts by all hams to try to improve themselves. #I need it you may have areas to work on as well. #I have and always will support the CW test, I would like the requirements to be where they once were but that will never happpen. #I may seem like a mean bugger in how i come across with some of my points, as I hold certain expectations of AR, but also want it to be as good as it can be.
Interesting you are a fire chief, I serve as the deputy chief on my department, I train just as hard as any firefighter and also serve as an EMT on the ambulance service. #It is nice you will be waiting for me because on a smaller fire department I have had to lead the way in and back out. #Young or old, man or woman, all of our firefighters are the best I feel, and very capable. #They and myself still get corrected when it is needed. #The truth that you are doing something worng hurts? Of course it does, we are firefighters, we hold high standards, but there is always room for improvement and I hold that to be true to AR as well.
We can all emerge from this "slug fest" better, you, I, all have things to learn in differect areas. #The more we learn about each other the more we may realize we are not that far apart. #How we present that ideal is what is different, but I feel that it is a very similar ideal. #
This now is the kind of constructive talk that gets things done. #You know a little more about me and I know a little more about you. #Hopefully this will not stop and an area that satisfies the interested parties can be found.
BTW way "chief" #You will now be looked at by me just like a chief, total respect but you still need to catch a little grief just as I give my chief and get from my firefighters. #I mean no harm my it just the firefighter way to hassle the chief a little. #Please be safe and come home after EVERY shift. #I look forward to continuing this dialogue with you farther and feel that while we do not see eye to eye some good may just come for it anyway.

Arend

[ad4mg]

March 1991: #Issued KD4KWT - no-code technician class license
October 10, 1992: #Issued AD4MG - 20 wpm extra class license

End of argument about the code test being a barrier. #I'm a pipe-welder. #No college education, just trade school. #Dumb as a rock, some may say.

How was this done? #CW was learned up to the 13 wpm because I had to to get the spectrum on which I desired to operate. #The 20 wpm was learned because I wanted to, and to get the rest of the spectrum where the "sweet" DX was hiding. #I expended a little effort. #It only hurt a little.

I grew tired of welding pipe, so I took 7 years off to learn a new trade. #Automotive repair ... custom exhaust, brakes, on-board computerized engine controls, etc. #How? #I read the books, never took any classes. #Just did it. #Did things right, made lots of money. #I expended a little effort. #Didn't hurt one bit. #Got bored, pursued the administrative side of the construction industry, been there ever since.

Computers. #Got my 1st one in 1991. #Learned how to fix it myself ... too cheap to pay someone. #Programming? #I learned to write in Basic, Basic-A, GW-Basic, Quick Basic, Turbo Pascal, and now Visual Basic. #How? #I read the books. #I expended a little effort. #It only hurt a little, mostly with the super-structured style of Pascal.

Now, someone tell me the story about how 5 wpm code testing is keeping these brilliant, technically minded individuals from becoming amateur radio operators. #This dumb old pipefitter is trying to understand. #Not trolling, just trying to see both sides of the "discussion" here. #Can someone please provide a straight-forward answer?

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (ad4mg @ Nov. 13 2005,06:46)]Now, someone tell me the story about how 5 wpm code testing is keeping these brilliant, technically minded individuals from becoming amateur radio operators. #This dumb old pipefitter is trying to understand. #Not trolling, just trying to see both sides of the "discussion" here. #Can someone please provide a straight-forward answer?
Congratulations,--on your accomplishments,--It reminds
me of an uncle of mine(years ago) when there were
no government "handouts", who with a sixth grade
education, learned plumbing, and commercial refiger-
ation maintenance and repair, by picking it real quick
on the job.

He also taught himself TV repair from #books "on
his own" in the early 50`s and had a real successful
business for years.
It`s surprising how much one can accomplish with a
bit of desire, motivation,and old fashion drive. #


It boils down to the "traditional work ethic"
that is(and has been) under "attack" by those that
think "justice" or "freedom" should be mediated out
to EVERYONE irregardless of motivation or effort on
one`s part, sort of like a social justice issue, promoted
by politicians,-- "chicken in every pot" type mentality.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # 73, K1MVP

[wy2u]

Quote[/b] (ad4mg @ Nov. 13 2005,06:46)]March 1991: Issued KD4KWT - no-code technician class license
October 10, 1992: Issued AD4MG - 20 wpm extra class license

End of argument about the code test being a barrier. I'm a pipe-welder. No college education, just trade school. Dumb as a rock, some may say.

How was this done? CW was learned up to the 13 wpm because I had to to get the spectrum on which I desired to operate. The 20 wpm was learned because I wanted to, and to get the rest of the spectrum where the "sweet" DX was hiding. I expended a little effort. It only hurt a little.

I grew tired of welding pipe, so I took 7 years off to learn a new trade. Automotive repair ... custom exhaust, brakes, on-board computerized engine controls, etc. How? I read the books, never took any classes. Just did it. Did things right, made lots of money. I expended a little effort. Didn't hurt one bit. Got bored, pursued the administrative side of the construction industry, been there ever since.

Computers. Got my 1st one in 1991. Learned how to fix it myself ... too cheap to pay someone. Programming? I learned to write in Basic, Basic-A, GW-Basic, Quick Basic, Turbo Pascal, and now Visual Basic. How? I read the books. I expended a little effort. It only hurt a little, mostly with the super-structured style of Pascal.

Now, someone tell me the story about how 5 wpm code testing is keeping these brilliant, technically minded individuals from becoming amateur radio operators. This dumb old pipefitter is trying to understand. Not trolling, just trying to see both sides of the "discussion" here. Can someone please provide a straight-forward answer?
Hi Luke

Answer to your question is rather easy.
If you see a previous post of mine it references two words:
"Professionalism and motiviation"

Guess you have them both covered.

73 ... de. ... WY2U ..... Mike

[ad4mg]

MVP & 2U, Mike ... thanks for the kind words, but I insist that I represent nothing special. #I suppose I was fortunate to have parents who taught me that this is the way it is. #Want that new Duncan yo-yo with the lights in it (~1965)? #Get a paper route, deliver papers, get paid, buy the yo-yo. #Bought my 1st car in 1973 (2 jobs needed to cover this one). #Muffler fell off the third day I had it. #I asked "Pop" to help me fix it. #He said that if I wanted to drive bad enough, I would learn how to fix it myself. #And he asked a profound question ... didn't I have any friends who could help? #That taught me to consider all possible sources for help. #Kinda like not looking at the government to fix all social ills.

I have stated this in many posts ... I'll not belittle any amateur who passes the requirements in place at the time of their examination, and, spare a few extremists I've taken a dislike to here, I'll happily QSO with anyone. #I just think that the ones sitting on their duffs waiting for the requirements to be watered down to their present level of achievement are cutting themselves short. #It's not just about the code tests. #It is the way our culture promotes erosion of itself by promoting this train of thought. #I believe many of the folks who waited for the requirements to adjust to their liking will be very short-lived on the MF & HF bands. #Folks just don't appreciate handouts. #They learn to expect them instead. #I wish I had the answers for this, but I don't. #Just too stupid I reckon!

73 all,
Luke

[VA3KSF]

[QUOTE=Quote ]
Congratulations,--on your accomplishments,--It reminds
me of an uncle of mine(years ago) when there were
no government "handouts", who with a sixth grade
education, learned plumbing, and commercial refiger-
ation maintenance and repair, by picking it real quick
on the job.

He also taught himself TV repair from #books "on
his own" in the early 50`s and had a real successful
business for years.
It`s surprising how much one can accomplish with a
bit of desire, motivation,and old fashion drive. #


It boils down to the "traditional work ethic"
that is (and has been) under "attack" by those that
think "justice" or "freedom" should be mediated out
to EVERYONE irregardless of motivation or effort on
one`s part, sort of like a social justice issue, promoted
by politicians,-- "chicken in every pot" type mentality.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # 73, K1MVP
I find it fascinating that your uncle apparently made those wonderful accomplishmens all on his own. #Nowhere do you mention that there was a government-sanctioned "incentive" licensing program in place that motivated him to do so.

I don't think anyone here is arguing with maintaining what you call a "traditional work ethic" in the proper place and for the right reasons. #The operative word here is "work". #

I fail to see the continued, obsessive need to also apply such rigid work-related rules, in a rigid license structure consisting of myriad levels and "classes" (not to mention an arcane Morse testing requirement) simply to operate a hobby-type radio transmitter.


73,

Keith
VA3KSF / KB1SF

[wb3cuf]

The League seems to be hoping that nobody remembers that THEY gave us Incentive Licensing in the first place. THEY are the reason that Technician licensees have only VHF and above privleges.

Upgrades from the Technician ranks have ALWAYS been stagnant because of the fact that it was only a VHF and above EXPERIMENTER'S license by their own definition.

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (KQ6XA @ Nov. 12 2005,18:05)] "Meaningful" Outreach to Technician Licensees and Prospective New Ham Operators

I'm happy to see that the Morse talent test for the USA Amateur Radio Service will soon be gone completely. Along with so many other hams and prospective hams, I look forward to the day when this will no longer be an issue.

As the Morse hazing ritual moves to the annals of radio history... we really need to organize an outreach to all those operators who were turned away from HF and ham radio by the Morse talent test in previous years. The outreach needs to include any of the Technician class licensees who each of us may have met throughout the years, who may have drifted out of touch with the ham community now. They need to know about the licensing changes and the new opportunity for them on HF.

One of the wonderful aspects of this will be that amateur radio emergency services will be able to utilize HF in a much more effective way, with more operators having access to HF.


<a href="http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=3;t=42778;st=0" target="_blank">Click Here

Morse is History
</a>


--- Bonnie KQ6XA


http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
To use a scientific term: Bull$#it!!

Bonnie, your ability to celebrate medocrity and obfuscate tradition is unsurpassed. I know hordes of underachieveing licensees play into the "bandwidth bandplan" grandios, but your post here is a gem. I know you're not familiar with it, but there is an Amateur Code that covers this subject. Also remember that the internet and Amateur Radio are not the same thing.

But I am sure your forthcoming book on Amateur Radio will cover this in detail albeit in your usual skewed manner.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (KQ6XA @ Nov. 12 2005,18:05)]... we really need to organize an outreach to all those operators who were turned away from HF and ham radio by the Morse talent test in previous years. --- Bonnie KQ6XA
Good luck finding such rare people. Needle in a haystack might be easier.

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] (VA3KSF @ Nov. 13 2005,09:14)][QUOTE=Quote ]
Congratulations,--on your accomplishments,--It reminds
me of an uncle of mine(years ago) when there were
no government "handouts", who with a sixth grade
education, learned plumbing, and commercial refiger-
ation maintenance and repair, by picking it real quick
on the job.

He also taught himself TV repair from #books "on
his own" in the early 50`s and had a real successful
business for years.
It`s surprising how much one can accomplish with a
bit of desire, motivation,and old fashion drive. #


It boils down to the "traditional work ethic"
that is (and has been) under "attack" by those that
think "justice" or "freedom" should be mediated out
to EVERYONE irregardless of motivation or effort on
one`s part, sort of like a social justice issue, promoted
by politicians,-- "chicken in every pot" type mentality.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # 73, K1MVP
I find it fascinating that your uncle apparently made those wonderful accomplishmens all on his own. #Nowhere do you mention that there was a government-sanctioned "incentive" licensing program in place that motivated him to do so.

I don't think anyone here is arguing with maintaining what you call a "traditional work ethic" in the proper place and for the right reasons. #The operative word here is "work". #

I fail to see the continued, obsessive need to also apply such rigid work-related rules, in a rigid license structure consisting of myriad levels and "classes" (not to mention an arcane Morse testing requirement) simply to operate a hobby-type radio transmitter.


73,

Keith
VA3KSF / KB1SF
"simply to operate a hobby-type radio transmitter"?

Folks- this, more than anything I could possible say, demonstrates the problem with so much in the Amateur Radio Service today.

You can quote and explain Part 97.1 till you are blue in the face, but so many have no understanding that the ARS was not put in place merely to provide the opportunity for people to "operate a hobby-type transmitter".

For the people who have this as a goal - GET A CB/FRS/GMRS type-accepted, frequency-limited, mode-limited HOBBY-TYPE RADIO.

tim ab0wr

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (kc0ukk @ Nov. 13 2005,00:32)]The degree far less important than the education except where perception is valued over substance.
No, the degree is nothing but the documentation that you GOT the education. Neither is more important than the other, because they are really the same. And it's the learning AFTER you get them and get out in the real world that counts.

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (K2MLS @ Nov. 11 2005,18:21)]One might assume by applying the logic they have shown, it is a rite of passage for an Extra Class ticket holder to berate and degrade those with lesser credentials...
It isn't about credentials, it's about motivation as it relates to those desiring to upgrade. Your statement becomes correct for internet reflectors when the underlined is changed to "who expect something without working for it".

We're under the false impression that if you're a big lazy slug who wants a free upgrade, maybe bringing it to your attention may motivate you.

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (n2pet @ Nov. 12 2005,14:23)]Go back and read my post A** hole. Keep my call and my business out of your mouth.
ROFLMAO!!!! Well lets see...

Quote[/b] ]BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH Code No Code. Give it a rest for christsakes! I'm a tech have been since 91' and what I've seen and experienced for myself on "amateur radio" has been for the most part just a bunch of school yard bullies who by the way were probably the same people who were bullied themselves in school who now think that they are the all powerful ones because they have that big bad EXTRA class ticket!! What a bunch of whining pu**ys! It's like they guage all of their lifes accomplishments on having passed a 5wpm morse test (most anyway). Sick of it.. Sick of them... Which is why I spend little or no time with the hobby. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Scraping pooch scat off my shoe comes to mind... LOL!

[VA3KSF]

[quote=VA3KSF,Nov. 13 2005,09:14][quote=K1MVP,Nov. 13 2005,07:50][QUOTE=Quote ]


You can quote and explain Part 97.1 till you are blue in the face, but so many have no understanding that the ARS was not put in place merely to provide the opportunity for people to "operate a hobby-type transmitter".

For the people who have this as a goal - #GET A CB/FRS/GMRS type-accepted, frequency-limited, mode-limited #HOBBY-TYPE RADIO.

tim ab0wr
...then, it appears your definition of the word "Amateur" is far different than mine. #

Granted, there are words like "technical investigation" contained in the official definition. #However, 97.1 calls an "Amateur" someone who is "interested in radio technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary (i.e. "financial") interest". #

Sure sounds like a hobby to me.

And those other services you mention (CB, GMRS, etc) were at least initially designed to be COMMERCIAL services set up primarily for people to use while making a living. #Our service was (and is) supposed to be a NON-commercial service carried out by "amateurs". #That is, folks having some fun talking to each other while doing their "technical investigations".

Could it be that some of us (via the license structure and elsewhere) are STILL trying to make Ham Radio into something far more structured and involved (not to mention "commercial-like") than it was ever intended to be?

73,

Keith
VA3KSF / KB1SF

[N2EY]

Quote[/b] ]The League seems to be hoping that nobody remembers that THEY gave us Incentive Licensing in the first place. #THEY are the reason that Technician licensees have only VHF and above privleges. #

'Nobody remembers' that because that's not what happened.

The Technician license did *not* come about because of
"incentive licensing". Here's what really happened:

Before 1951, there was the old "ABC" license system. Basically two levels - Class A had all privileges, while Class B and C had no 'phone privileges on the ham bands from 2 to 25 MHz.

In 1951, the *FCC* restructured that old system into a new 6 class system: Novice, Technician, General (old Class B), Conditional (old Class C), Advanced (old Class A) and Extra.

The new Technician license was meant for experimenter types who were interested in VHF/UHF. It was spurred on by the rapid developments in radar and television during and after WW2. The 1951 Technician had the same written test as General, but only 5 wpm code - and it allowed all privileges on 220 and above. No 6 meters and no 2 meters. Back then there was *no* manufactured ham gear for 220 and up - a 1951 Technician was a homebrewer or converter of surplus by necessity.

The changes known as "incentive licensing" came much later (mid 1960s) and were not the work of ARRL alone.

Until the late 1970s, FCC envisioned the Technician as an "experimenter's license", for those who were more interested in working on radios than in using them.

Quote[/b] ]Upgrades from the Technician ranks have ALWAYS been stagnant because of the fact that it was only a VHF and above EXPERIMENTER'S license by their own definition.

FCC's definition - which changed in the late 1970s and 1980s.

73 de Jim, N2EY

[VA3KSF]

Quote[/b] (N2EY @ Nov. 13 2005,12:16)][quote=wb3cuf,Nov. 13 2005,10:02]
Quote[/b] ]
Before 1951, there was the old "ABC" license system. Basically two levels - Class A had all privileges, while Class B and C had no 'phone privileges on the ham bands from 2 to 25 MHz.


73 de Jim, N2EY
Thanks once again for your insightful post, Jim.

What was the difference between the Class B and the Class C license?

Also, what do you mean by "all privileges"? #Were the bands#carved up by emission mode at that point or were they regulated strictly by bandwidth?

From your description, it appears things were much simpler pre-1951. #If so, it's all the more evident that the FCC failed quite miserably trying to fix something that wasn't broken. #

Could it be that we are still living with that failure?

73,

Keith
VA3KSF / KB1SF

[K4WKM]

Quote[/b] (nc5s @ Nov. 12 2005,08:13)]Quote[/b] (K4WKM @ Nov. 12 2005,13:41)]Quote[/b] (nc5s @ Nov. 12 2005,04:14)]Quote[/b] (K4WKM @ Nov. 12 2005,10:06)]Hey i don't care anything about H.F.
Yeah! ..... Right!
What i have seen on these threads so far is a bunch of snobs that lOOk down on fellow HAMS simply because they did not have to take a CODE test to get into Ham Radio. It wasn't because i wined to the F.C.C. to get it it was offered at that time and i went for it and i also found out that we are labled as NCT's and it won't ever stop and some of you won't ever talk to a NCT on H.F. even if we passed a code test because it is DUMBED DOWN. Wasn't me that wined to the F.C.C. It's there get over it you will live a lot longer go to a Head Shrinker and get on some meds you guy's will have a stroke if you don't calm down and live your life like the rest of us.There is a life other then Ham Radio.So no i don't care if i ever get on H.F.I have seen what is has done.
No KWM, you are absolutely incorrect.

I look down on you because you are a lazy whiner who wants something for nothing. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you are so dis-interested in HF, who do you even have a dog in this fight?

Answer?

See my comment above.

Have a nice day sir.
I have answered this two times in this thread why i'm dis-interested in H.F. can't you read?Ain't the code bud
You have a nice day.

[N2EY]

Quote[/b] (VA3KSF @ Nov. 13 2005,13:14)]
Quote[/b] ]What was the difference between the Class B and the Class C license?


Class B was issued if the exams were administered by an FCC examiner. Class C was issued if the exams were administered "by mail", using a volunteer examiner (intentionally not capitalized).

A Class C was only available if the applicant lived more than 125 miles "air line" from an FCC quarterly exam point, or was disabled to the point of being unable to travel to an FCC exam point.

If the holder of a Class C moved to a point less than 125 miles "air line" from an FCC quarterly exam point, s/he had 90 days to appear at FCC to retake the exam in front of an FCC examiner.

The tests for Class B and Class C were identical: 13 wpm code sending and receiving, and a written test of 50 questions that included multiple choice, essays and drawing diagrams.

Here's an example of what those written tests were like 54+ years ago - just one question (I'm paraphrasing):

"A manufacturer of quartz crystals guarantees their product to be withing .01% of the marked frequency when used in the recommended circuit at a temperature of 77 degrees Fahrenheit. The crystals have a positive temperature coefficient of frequency of 5 parts per million per degree Fahrenheit. A radio amateur intends to use the crystals in the specified circuit over the temperature range of 30 to 100 degrees Fahrenheit. What is the lowest whole-number frequency that the amateur should specify for operation in the 40 meter band, allowing a 1 kilocycle margin from the band edge?"

The answer was not multiple-choice - the ham had to work out the answer and show the result. Simply getting the right answer wasn't enough - you had to show how it was done.

Think how much you needed to know to answer that *one* question:

- The lower band edge of 40 meters
- How to calculate tolerances
- How to calculate temperature coefficients
- How to add in the 1 kc. margin
- How to show the work so the examiner could see you knew what you were doing.

And that was for the *beginner* test!

No, I didn't take those kinds of tests. They were long gone by the time I got into ham radio.


Quote[/b] ]Also, what do you mean by "all privileges"? Were the bands carved up by emission mode at that point or were they regulated strictly by bandwidth?


FCC has never regulated hams by bandwidth.

Back in 1951 before the restructuring, the bands were divided much as now, without the Advanced and Extra subbands. For example, on 80/75 meters, 'phone could be used from 3800 to 4000 (if you had a Class A) and CW/Morse Code could be used from 3500 to 4000. RTTY (the only data mode then) could be used on part of the 3500-3800 segment, but not in the 'phone subband.

Quote[/b] ]From your description, it appears things were much simpler pre-1951.

In some ways, yes. But amateur radio was much simpler then, too. Back then 99% of ham operation was done on just two modes - Morse Code and AM 'phone. SSB and RTTY were just beginning to be used by hams then, SSTV was far in the future, etc.

Back then the 30, 17, 15 and 12 meter ham bands did not exist. There was no manufactured ham gear for the bands above 2 meters. No HF transceivers, no digital readouts, no repeaters, no satellites, etc.

What ham gear did exist was big, heavy, expensive, and required careful adjustment to work right. A ham station
back then was usually a serious investment of time and money.

Quote[/b] ]If so, it's all the more evident that the FCC failed quite miserably trying to fix something that wasn't broken.

Could it be that we are still living with that failure?


Before WW2, FCC's role in radio regulation was mainly
one of trying to maintain some sort of order. Afterwards, they seemed much more involved in social engineering of all radio services.

For example, remember the Basis and Purpose section of Part 97? It did not exist before 1951.

The restructuring of 1951 was largely due to the efforts of two small special-interest groups of that time, whose membership totalled less than 10,000. One group sought increased technical smarts for hams, and the other sought increased operating skills. ARRL really only wanted the Novice.

While the maze of license classes may appear to you to be a mistake, consider that the Novice license, introduced as part of the 1951 restructuring, was wildly successful in getting lots of new people into ham radio.

And consider that in 1975 the FCC tried to create an even more complex seven-class two-ladder system. It was successfully opposed by the amateur community - including ARRL - as way too complex and divisive.

73 de Jim, N2EY

[kd4mxe]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Nov. 12 2005,09:43)]Cliff Notes

"We don't want the code test. #We're waiting with our little hearts beating "pitter-pat" for the code test to be droped so we can get on HF like the real amateurs. #Then you will HAVE to respect us. We are special cases that should not have to take the test that hundreds of thousands before us took and passed. Times change and Ham Radio is dead if you don't listen to me and blah blah blah blah waaaaaaaaaaaa. #Snurk! #Slurfp! Waaaaaaaa.!" #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Signed,

Call: N5USN Class: Technician
Call: K4WKM Class: Technician
Call: N2PET Class: Technician
Call: K2MLS Class: Technician
Call: N4CQW Class: Technician
Call: KD4MXE Class: Technician (Sorry Bill)
Call: N3LUV Class: Technician
Call: K4WKM Class: Technician
Call: KD7ZRT Class: Technician
Call: KI4BBI Class: Technician
Call: N3ZVX Class: Technician

Note: #This is a public service to all Amateurs. Saves you from having to listen to all the self serving logic as to why telegraphy testing is not needed. #Feel free to print this out to use as reference when you scan thru the messages. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Lighten up guys! #The FCC will grant your wish soon. #Get out there and get those HF rigs. #See you on HF!
ag4yo- well well mr charlie you Have come out of your cave , and started slinging mud again , first of all mr charlie I have Been and took the code test 2 times now , and have Been working on it 7mo now , and when I get on hf if you dont want to talk to me thats fine , I will Be glad to grant you your wish , Because its People like you that have Made me want to do every thing I can to get Rid of it as a Requierment , evening when I get it ,and under stand one thing the fcc makes the Rules we go By not your mud slinging a## or me , if the code is all you got in you ,then you dont mean a da# thing , what I look up to is the one that knows his electronic,s his antenna Building , what you should do is worry about what ag4yo dose not what kd4mxe dose if you dont like what I do then tought shi# to you , you dont tell me what to do ,I dont tell you what to do , and dont give a Rat,s a## what you do , so if you want me and you to get this thing going Bring it on But Remember the fcc Makes the Rules and what ever it is I will live with it , catch you on the next post ,73 Bill

[k9ekg]

Quote[/b] (KC0OFZ @ Nov. 13 2005,05:50)]Quote[/b] (k9ekg @ Nov. 13 2005,00:05)]Quote[/b] (KC0OFZ @ Nov. 12 2005,19:08)]AH personal insults, nice reply and very constructive.
Good to see your are the future of Amateur Radio with that attitude. Do you feel that no requirements is the way to go? How would you feel if this was just like CB for requirements? What would you do to keep things under control? It is interesting that NCT's like you want everything handed out but have NO solution on how to clean up the trash that is there and keep more from comming in. If wanting to have the bands under a little control and filter out some of the garbage is being and elitist, than yes I am one. True to nature you will continue with the personal insults and have no real solutions or conversation either. What a bright future this attitude brings to the bands. Wonderful indeed.
I'm glad you find the word elitist insulting. You want to talk about constructive and insulting? Lets start with YOUR post.
First, I am no more future than you. Be both create future for ham radio in our own ways. Who's doing more here? Someone sharing an opinion and you backlashing? Me calling you names and you doing so back? No one wins.

Next, I have never said that I think no requirements are the way to go for ham radio. That is just petty. You said we need filters, to keep out un-desirables I would imagine? That makes you an elitist. If you're not good enough, then to heck with you. Truth hurts. Want to advance the hobby, think on levels that interest people to join. Not like a whole bunch of people kicking down the doors to get into ham radio, especially when present hams like yourselves don't want them.

Next, you lump me into a generalization which is totally untrue, and quite frankly is the crux of many technicians NOT advancing; the fact they are left to feel sub-standard, second handed, disenchanted, and otherwise not suitable for the hobby YOU wish to filter. You filter your own "people"? I have never wanted anything handed to me. I have never asked for anything to be handed to me. I do believe the testing for morse code is not necessary to be a ham. HF to say the least. Simple. We will have to share our disagreement. I do know morse code, I did spend the time to learn it. You have no right to judge me or anyone else for that matter on what license class you hold. Extras and Extra Lights? Please! Now we subdivide even more...foolish.

CB requirements? Now you're getting rash....they are licensed by rule. Just because the FCC doesn't want to enforce the rule there is not my fault, not the Technician license levels' fault, or even yours. Not all CB'ers are bad and even many people here, whether they want to admit it or not, came from CB roots and "GREW UP" as some of you say, or more or less became interested in advancing themselves deeper into the radio hobby. Interested more in what radio can do. What's wrong with getting someone who is interested in ham radio INTO ham radio? Not to be just chastised as a CB'er and you need to filter them out. A catch 22...because you need that filter, right? I don't hear where the morse code test has filtered anything out! DO you listen to HF? Are you one of those swearing LIDs tuning up on top of DX down there? Swearing? Not ID'ing? Its no worse than CB many times! Your filter needs changing, because its clogged with B.S.

The technician class was not a loss for ham radio. Not keeping them is. Was the filter needed? Code or not, chastisting every technician you can and lumping us all together as sub-standard whiners and gimme gimmes is the type of gibberish that keeps people from upgrading, and keeps people from joining.

Here, case in point. You're a firefighter according to your little ending paragraph. So am I. I am also a Chief. I did not get into my position by getting things handed to me, I worked very hard for it. There is nothing in my station I cannot do, and my tenure in ham radio is no different. You know nothing about me, I know nothing about you. You think I am selfish, I think you're an elitist. So while you're running, you'd better keep up. I'll be waiting for you to come out safely.

Otherwise, we can sling mud all day...


Chris
Chris
Interesting and good reply. First I still feel that there is a need to have a degree of law and order and that will include the form of a test. You stated you are a firefighter, well I am sure that you feel there should be requirements there as well, just as my department has. Elitist, yes, and that helps keep people safe. Now I know AR is not firefighting, but there is still a need to have some degree of requirements to make sure those who want to be there are there for the right reasons not just because it may be perceived as publicly acceptable. Does that include a CW test? Maybe, maybe it does not, but it needs a degree of testing and help that comes from a club or at least one elmer.
Flash forward to our two clubs here, I have personally helped out many hams, reguardeless of "rank" if you will or liscense class. All "new" hams have gotten a fine start here, from getting to use various equipment that I have to let them "try before they buy their own to see if they like it" to any kind of help they need, both in person and on the air. With this they haved asked many questions and learned a lot in spite of my support of testing. If this makes me not welcoming to new hams in some eyes, fine but around here it has and does work.
You find trash on the HF bands, so do I, do I support those persons? No, but I feel that you may be making generalization many do. It is not working perfectly (i.e. CW test) so lets do away with it. Thats fine, but how can you assure me and others that the problem will not continue to get worse considering what is also heard on the 2 meter side? There needs to be a revival of sorts by all hams to try to improve themselves. I need it you may have areas to work on as well. I have and always will support the CW test, I would like the requirements to be where they once were but that will never happpen. I may seem like a mean bugger in how i come across with some of my points, as I hold certain expectations of AR, but also want it to be as good as it can be.
Interesting you are a fire chief, I serve as the deputy chief on my department, I train just as hard as any firefighter and also serve as an EMT on the ambulance service. It is nice you will be waiting for me because on a smaller fire department I have had to lead the way in and back out. Young or old, man or woman, all of our firefighters are the best I feel, and very capable. They and myself still get corrected when it is needed. The truth that you are doing something worng hurts? Of course it does, we are firefighters, we hold high standards, but there is always room for improvement and I hold that to be true to AR as well.
We can all emerge from this "slug fest" better, you, I, all have things to learn in differect areas. The more we learn about each other the more we may realize we are not that far apart. How we present that ideal is what is different, but I feel that it is a very similar ideal.
This now is the kind of constructive talk that gets things done. You know a little more about me and I know a little more about you. Hopefully this will not stop and an area that satisfies the interested parties can be found.
BTW way "chief" You will now be looked at by me just like a chief, total respect but you still need to catch a little grief just as I give my chief and get from my firefighters. I mean no harm my it just the firefighter way to hassle the chief a little. Please be safe and come home after EVERY shift. I look forward to continuing this dialogue with you farther and feel that while we do not see eye to eye some good may just come for it anyway.

Arend
Gentlemen,

This is what ham radio is about. Barring the fact we are both public safety professionals, we know how to sling some mud at one another and come out smelling like a rose. Morse code or not, I think we will make it through this whatever way the cookie crumbles.

I do support morse code. I do not support morse code as a specific testing requirement. I do believe people will continue to use it.

Someone commented to me a few posts ago about how I was hearing "trash" on HF phone and it was not on CW. What difference does it make? The people are HF phone are the same ones who had to pass a Morse Code test to get on HF, thus the filter arguement.

I think the biggest thing we need to do is not think of filters, but think of ways to style hams to be appropriate. Not everyone will be, and those people who do not uphold the image of what a ham should be, follow the rules, etc, should be dealt with. It occurs...look at Jack Gerrtisen.
Some think the ARRL has failed, some do not. Some complain ham clubs are boring, some say theirs are very active. We have 2 sides to everything. Maybe we can start working together after this and reform amateur radio ourselves. The ARRL isn't going to do it. The FCC will do what they want, so maybe we can start by getting back to the grass roots of interaction ourselves.

Anyone can be a "big man" on the Internet, but I have a feeling if one of you bumped into any other one of you in person, things would be different. You'd be hams.

73

..and Arend, thank you.


Chris

[k9ekg]

Quote[/b] (ab0wr @ Nov. 13 2005,10:29)][quote=VA3KSF,Nov. 13 2005,09:14][quote=K1MVP,Nov. 13 2005,07:50][quote]

For the people who have this as a goal - GET A CB/FRS/GMRS type-accepted, frequency-limited, mode-limited HOBBY-TYPE RADIO.

tim ab0wr
GMRS is not a hobby-type service.


Chris

[N5USN]

Quote: I look down on you because you are a lazy whiner who wants something for nothing. Nothing more, nothing less.
---------------------------------------------
Well sir, I don't look down on you. I feel sorry for you. Is your entire life Ham radio? Is it that important to you that you would "look down" on others that don't feel the same as yourself?
What gives YOU the right to judge others for what they believe in?

You are really not worth the trouble to have this conversation with. I've spent 20 years in the Navy and NEVER have I met a larger JERK than you. May you fine peace with your small band of bums that think they are better then the rest.

No futher comment to those that are above the rest.

N5USN

[kd4mxe]

Quote[/b] (N5USN @ Nov. 13 2005,16:10)]Quote: I look down on you because you are a lazy whiner who wants something for nothing. #Nothing more, nothing less.
---------------------------------------------
Well sir, I don't look down on you. #I feel sorry for you. #Is your entire life Ham radio? #Is it that important to you that you would "look down" on others that don't feel the same as yourself? #
What gives YOU the right to judge others for what they believe in? #

You are really not worth the trouble to have this conversation with. #I've spent 20 years in the Navy and NEVER have I met a larger JERK than you. #May you fine peace with your small band of bums that think they are better then the rest.

No futher comment to those that are above the rest. #

N5USN
n5usn - sir you tell it like it is good post , dose these post tell you what kind of people thats in ham Radio , I am glad the fcc dont listen to these kind of people Or I hope they dont ,73 Bill

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] (k9ekg @ Nov. 13 2005,15:59)][quote=VA3KSF,Nov. 13 2005,09:14][quote=K1MVP,Nov. 13 2005,07:50][QUOTE=Quote ]

For the people who have this as a goal - #GET A CB/FRS/GMRS type-accepted, frequency-limited, mode-limited #HOBBY-TYPE RADIO.

tim ab0wr
GMRS is not a hobby-type service.


Chris
Here is what the FCC rules and regs say the GMRS is for:

"The GMRS is a land mobile radio service available to persons for short-distance two-way communications to facilitate the activities of licensees and their immediate family members."

Now I suppose "activities" may not be "hobby" related, it could be for a farmer directing his wife where to bring the grain truck, assuming the soybeans aren't more than a few miles from home, and for that I stand corrected.

*However*, most of the use that I *know* people are using it for *is* hobby use, especially with the 20foot antenna height limitation most people are content to live with.

tim ab0wr

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (VA3KSF @ Nov. 13 2005,09:14)][QUOTE=Quote ]
Congratulations,--on your accomplishments,--It reminds
me of an uncle of mine(years ago) when there were
no government "handouts", who with a sixth grade
education, learned plumbing, and commercial refiger-
ation maintenance and repair, by picking it real quick
on the job.

He also taught himself TV repair from #books "on
his own" in the early 50`s and had a real successful
business for years.
It`s surprising how much one can accomplish with a
bit of desire, motivation,and old fashion drive. #


It boils down to the "traditional work ethic"
that is (and has been) under "attack" by those that
think "justice" or "freedom" should be mediated out
to EVERYONE irregardless of motivation or effort on
one`s part, sort of like a social justice issue, promoted
by politicians,-- "chicken in every pot" type mentality.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # 73, K1MVP
I find it fascinating that your uncle apparently made those wonderful accomplishmens all on his own. #Nowhere do you mention that there was a government-sanctioned "incentive" licensing program in place that motivated him to do so.

I don't think anyone here is arguing with maintaining what you call a "traditional work ethic" in the proper place and for the right reasons. #The operative word here is "work". #
The "incentive", back then--with the REAL old timers
was,--IF ya didn`t WORK, ya did NOT eat,--pure and
simple,--as the government did NOT fund someone who
was out of work.

And no one expected a "free lunch" back then,--I guess
that`s why most prospective hams of that era, did not feel "oppressed" because of the
CW and written requirement.

As time goes on, I have much more
"respect" for these OT`s who really knew electronics
and built legal limit transmitters, and receivers that
also demanded both knowledge, patience, and
perseverance.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # 73, K1MVP

p.s., As far as "rigid rules"--I think the "old" work
ethic,--if ya don`t work,--ya don`t eat might
be considered "rigid" by today`s standards.

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] (VA3KSF @ Nov. 13 2005,12:00)][quote=VA3KSF,Nov. 13 2005,09:14][quote=K1MVP,Nov. 13 2005,07:50][QUOTE=Quote ]


You can quote and explain Part 97.1 till you are blue in the face, but so many have no understanding that the ARS was not put in place merely to provide the opportunity for people to "operate a hobby-type transmitter".

For the people who have this as a goal - #GET A CB/FRS/GMRS type-accepted, frequency-limited, mode-limited #HOBBY-TYPE RADIO.

tim ab0wr
...then, it appears your definition of the word "Amateur" is far different than mine. #

Granted, there are words like "technical investigation" contained in the official definition. #However, 97.1 calls an "Amateur" someone who is "interested in radio technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary (i.e. "financial") interest". #

Sure sounds like a hobby to me.

And those other services you mention (CB, GMRS, etc) were at least initially designed to be COMMERCIAL services set up primarily for people to use while making a living. #Our service was (and is) supposed to be a NON-commercial service carried out by "amateurs". #That is, folks having some fun talking to each other while doing their "technical investigations".

Could it be that some of us (via the license structure and elsewhere) are STILL trying to make Ham Radio into something far more structured and involved (not to mention "commercial-like") than it was ever intended to be?

73,

Keith
VA3KSF / KB1SF
Why, *WHY* do so many people insist on misrepresenting what the rules say by omisson of context - i.e. the full quote?

Here is what 97.3(a)(4) actually says:

"4) Amateur service. A radiocommunication service for the purpose of self-training, intercommunication and technical investigations carried out by amateurs, that is, duly authorized persons interested in radio
technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest."

It's obvious that the people who are so interested in dumbing down the ARS are only interested in the "intercommunication" piece of this and not the self-training and technical investigation.

*IF* that is all you want to do, get a CB/FRS/GMRS hobby-radio and talk away to your hearts content. Get a computer with Instant Messaging and talk away with all kinds of people in foreign countries. Put in an intercom station with one location in the basement and one upstairs and use it to talk to your wife using the push-to-talk switch. Get a job as a taxi dispatcher or 911 bureau attendant and talk over the radio all day long.

It doesn't matter what CB/FRS/GMRS were initially designed to be, they are hobby services today. No testing at all is required to use them.

The *REASON*, and the only reason that YOU, as an amateur radio operator is allowed to use non-type-accepted equipment that can be mal-adjusted, mis-adjusted, un-adjusted, dis-adjusted, or well-adjusted and are allowed to run very high power levels in either an unsafe or safe manner, is *BECAUSE* of the technical expertise operators in the Amateur Radio Service are supposed to have.

While the current tests don't do a very good job, in my opinion at least, of testing for even a modicum of technical knowledge, that is at least their purported purpose.

It is a faint hope, and the hope gets fainter every day, that MOST of the operators in the ARS will work, actually *work* at the self-training mentioned in 97.3(a)(4) and become ever more knowledgeable in radio techniques.

The more I hear people talking about those who *HAVE* #self-trained and taken the advanced tests as "elitists", the less hopeful I am about the ARS surviving as anything other than a hobby service just like the CB/FRS/GMRS services.

BTW, those of you who keep throwing out the elitist term should really look up the definition. An elistist looks at others as inferior based on social or intellectual *PRETENSION". The word "pretension" means a *FALSE* or unsupported quality.

Calling someone who has PASSED a higher level test in the service or who has seen significantly more history in the service an *elitist* #is doing nothing more than casting unwarranted aspersions in an attempt to win an argument through the use of emotions rather than reason.

Trying to continue the high level of knowledge in radio technique in the service is NOT trying to make ham radio into anything more structured or more involved that then rules and regulations themselves speak to.

Do we need to go over 97.1 *one - more - time* in order to emphasize what the ARS was intended to be?

tim ab0wr

[K4WKM]

n5usn..you are looking at a example of a person that get's on H.F.and jams others you can tell by looking back at the posts that are on here.And one thing for sure NO CLASS.I'm like you i feel sorry for him there is no help for these types.

[nc5s]

Quote[/b] (K4WKM @ Nov. 13 2005,17:42)]n5usn..you are looking at a example of a person that get's on H.F.and jams others you can tell by looking back at the posts that are on here.And one thing for sure NO CLASS.I'm like you i feel sorry for him there is no help for these types.
K4WKM, N4USN, KD4MXE et. al.

Actually fellows, I really don't look down on anyone. I actually don't care if you all make it to Amateur Exalted Class, with or without morse code.

What I did see, and took advantage of, is the fact that each and every one of you have been on an insult fishing trip throughout this thread.

If you fish for insults and put downs, I'll be more than happy to oblige you and go 15+ rounds with you if you wish. It costs me nothing to post on this forum.

I hope that each of you acheive whatever it is you want from this hobby.

73 es Gud luck

Ed

NC5S

[ad4mg]

Quote[/b] (K4WKM @ Nov. 13 2005,20:42)]n5usn..you are looking at a example of a person that get's on H.F.and jams others you can tell by looking back at the posts that are on here.And one thing for sure NO CLASS.I'm like you i feel sorry for him there is no help for these types.
Oh, he must have evidence of someone deliberately and intentionally interfering with an ongoing amateur radio communication. Otherwise he would not make such an accusation.

Or maybe he's trolling. #It's hard to tell from here.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[kd4mxe]

Quote[/b] (nc5s @ Nov. 13 2005,18:11)]Quote[/b] (K4WKM @ Nov. 13 2005,17:42)]n5usn..you are looking at a example of a person that get's on H.F.and jams others you can tell by looking back at the posts that are on here.And one thing for sure NO CLASS.I'm like you i feel sorry for him there is no help for these types.
K4WKM, N4USN, KD4MXE et. al.

Actually fellows, I really don't look down on anyone. #I actually don't care if you all make it to Amateur Exalted Class, with or without morse code.

What I did see, and took advantage of, is the fact that each and every one of you have been on an insult fishing trip throughout this thread.

If you fish for insults and put downs, I'll be more than happy to oblige you and go 15+ rounds with you if you wish. #It costs me nothing to post on this forum.

I hope that each of you acheive whatever it is you want from this hobby.

73 es Gud luck

Ed

NC5S
nc5s - well mr you are just about as Big of as and insult as I have seen, with you any one dont have to fish for them ,you are a insult to ham Radio and I dont give a Rat,s a## what you do , you tend to your self and I will tend to myself , and it Has not cost me anything so for , so insult on , http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif 73 and good luck to you to, Bill

[nc5s]

Quote[/b] (kd4mxe @ Nov. 13 2005,19:19)]Quote[/b] (nc5s @ Nov. 13 2005,18:11)]Quote[/b] (K4WKM @ Nov. 13 2005,17:42)]n5usn..you are looking at a example of a person that get's on H.F.and jams others you can tell by looking back at the posts that are on here.And one thing for sure NO CLASS.I'm like you i feel sorry for him there is no help for these types.
K4WKM, N4USN, KD4MXE et. al.

Actually fellows, I really don't look down on anyone. #I actually don't care if you all make it to Amateur Exalted Class, with or without morse code.

What I did see, and took advantage of, is the fact that each and every one of you have been on an insult fishing trip throughout this thread.

If you fish for insults and put downs, I'll be more than happy to oblige you and go 15+ rounds with you if you wish. #It costs me nothing to post on this forum.

I hope that each of you acheive whatever it is you want from this hobby.

73 es Gud luck

Ed

NC5S
nc5s - well mr you are just about as Big of as and insult as I have seen, with you any one dont have to fish for them #,you are a insult to ham Radio and I dont give a Rat,s a## what you do #, you tend to your self and I will tend to myself , and it Has not cost me anything so for , so insult on , http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif 73 and good luck to you to, Bill
Bill, You just don't know when to shut up, do you?

Sheeesh!

Have a wonderful day.

[n4ftc]

If anybody thinks there is alot of trash on HF now, wait till code is totally abolished.
You aint seen nothing yet -

[K4WKM]

I think i'm going to give this a break i'm stooping to a leval i'm not use to i'm no better when i do this.

[kd4mxe]

Quote[/b] (k7zbz @ Nov. 13 2005,20:05)]If anybody thinks there is alot of trash on HF now, wait till code is totally abolished.
You aint seen nothing yet -
k7zbz - sir I dont think it will Be that Bad ,But if it is everyone will just have get them in line ,73 Bill

[kd4mxe]

Quote[/b] (nc5s @ Nov. 13 2005,20:02)]Quote[/b] (kd4mxe @ Nov. 13 2005,19:19)]Quote[/b] (nc5s @ Nov. 13 2005,18:11)]Quote[/b] (K4WKM @ Nov. 13 2005,17:42)]n5usn..you are looking at a example of a person that get's on H.F.and jams others you can tell by looking back at the posts that are on here.And one thing for sure NO CLASS.I'm like you i feel sorry for him there is no help for these types.
K4WKM, N4USN, KD4MXE et. al.

Actually fellows, I really don't look down on anyone. #I actually don't care if you all make it to Amateur Exalted Class, with or without morse code.

What I did see, and took advantage of, is the fact that each and every one of you have been on an insult fishing trip throughout this thread.

If you fish for insults and put downs, I'll be more than happy to oblige you and go 15+ rounds with you if you wish. #It costs me nothing to post on this forum.

I hope that each of you acheive whatever it is you want from this hobby.

73 es Gud luck

Ed

NC5S
nc5s - well mr you are just about as Big of as and insult as I have seen, with you any one dont have to fish for them #,you are a insult to ham Radio and I dont give a Rat,s a## what you do #, you tend to your self and I will tend to myself , and it Has not cost me anything so for , so insult on , http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif 73 and good luck to you to, Bill
Bill, You just don't know when to shut up, do you?

Sheeesh!

Have a wonderful day.
nc5s - sir I will Be just as good to you , as you are to me , 73 and wish you the Best,Bill

[ad4mg]

Quote[/b] (kd4mxe @ Nov. 13 2005,23:10)]Quote[/b] (k7zbz @ Nov. 13 2005,20:05)]If anybody thinks there is alot of trash on HF now, wait till code is totally abolished.
You aint seen nothing yet -
k7zbz - sir I dont think it will Be that Bad ,But if it is everyone will just have get them in line ,73 Bill
I can't wait to see you guys get everyone "in line" on 20 & 75 meter phone. #That should provide more than one evening of entertainment! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[n4ftc]

k7zbz - sir I dont think it will Be that Bad ,But if it is everyone will just have get them in line ,73 Bill

I have a simpler solution,... keep the code requirement.

[kd4mxe]

Quote[/b] (ad4mg @ Nov. 13 2005,20:16)]Quote[/b] (kd4mxe @ Nov. 13 2005,23:10)]Quote[/b] (k7zbz @ Nov. 13 2005,20:05)]If anybody thinks there is alot of trash on HF now, wait till code is totally abolished.
You aint seen nothing yet -
k7zbz - sir I dont think it will Be that Bad ,But if it is everyone will just have get them in line ,73 Bill
I can't wait to see you guys get everyone "in line" on 20 & 75 meter phone. #That should provide more than one evening of entertainment! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
ad4mg - sir I understand what you are saying , I go to 40m cw and try to copie what I can ,and I hear some of it on 8o m to ,I am not saying there will not Be some Bad ones, But I can say it wont Be me , you are any of the others will not have any trouble from me , I cant speak for any one But me , 73 and good luck Bill

[kd4mxe]

Quote[/b] (k7zbz @ Nov. 13 2005,20:27)]k7zbz - sir I dont think it will Be that Bad ,But if it is everyone will just have get them in line ,73 Bill

I have a simpler solution,... # keep the code requirement.
k7zbz-well sir if the fcc dose that I can live with that , life will go on , I cant change it , so I have to live with it 73 Bill

[k9ekg]

Quote[/b] (ab0wr @ Nov. 13 2005,16:45)]Quote[/b] (k9ekg @ Nov. 13 2005,15:59)][quote=VA3KSF,Nov. 13 2005,09:14][quote=K1MVP,Nov. 13 2005,07:50][QUOTE=Quote ]

For the people who have this as a goal - GET A CB/FRS/GMRS type-accepted, frequency-limited, mode-limited HOBBY-TYPE RADIO.

tim ab0wr
GMRS is not a hobby-type service.


Chris
Here is what the FCC rules and regs say the GMRS is for:

"The GMRS is a land mobile radio service available to persons for short-distance two-way communications to facilitate the activities of licensees and their immediate family members."

Now I suppose "activities" may not be "hobby" related, it could be for a farmer directing his wife where to bring the grain truck, assuming the soybeans aren't more than a few miles from home, and for that I stand corrected.

*However*, most of the use that I *know* people are using it for *is* hobby use, especially with the 20foot antenna height limitation most people are content to live with.

tim ab0wr
Fair enough.
For me, GMRS is one of my hobbies, but not for hobby ham-like comms. We agree on the unscrupulous use though, no question.


Chris

[k9ekg]

Quote[/b] (k7zbz @ Nov. 13 2005,20:05)]If anybody thinks there is alot of trash on HF now, wait till code is totally abolished.
You aint seen nothing yet -
Yeah, the pro-code crowd will cry even more...
Get a grip, man.

[VA3KSF]

[quote=VA3KSF,Nov. 13 2005,12:00][quote=ab0wr,Nov. 13 2005,10:29][quote=VA3KSF,Nov. 13 2005,09:14][quote=K1MVP,Nov. 13 2005,07:50][QUOTE=Quote ]

Trying to continue the high level of knowledge in radio technique in the service is NOT trying to make ham radio into anything more structured or more involved that then rules and regulations themselves speak to.

Do we need to go over 97.1 *one - more - time* in order to emphasize what the ARS was intended to be?

tim ab0wr
No....please spare us.....

My point (which seems to have STILL been lost in all the passion) is simply that the rules do NOT have to be overly structured, complicated, or miles deep in order for "self training" and "technical investigation" to take place. #

In fact, it's been my own personal experience that the more inane and complicated the government rules become the LESS training and technical investigation there actually is. #That's because there's less flexibility in the rules for the experimenters to experiment. #

For those of you who may not recognize my US callsign, I'm a Past President (as well as a past member of the Board of Directors) for AMSAT- North America. #I think I can also safely say that AMSAT very much personifies the term "technical investigaton" as it appplies to Amateur Radio. #

And during my many years in that leadership role with AMSAT, I quickly learned, for example, that#many of our international AMSAT partners (the Germans, Brits, Finns, Japanese, Austrians, Belgians, Hugarians, Czechs and Slovenians just to name a few) who worked on the Phase 3-D satellite project (later called "Oscar 40" when it acheived orbit) have FAR fewer layers of regulation, license classes and oversight in their rules than we do in the USA.

Yet, I'd stack these folks' advanced technical prowess and accomplishments in the "radio art" up against anyone's in AMSAT-NA (who would as well!)

In fact, it was the LACK of regulation in the Eurpoean license system that became one of the key reasons why the Phase 3-D satellite ultimately carried a GERMAN license and callsign rather than an American one. #There were going to be just too many stupid hoops we'd have to jump through with the FCC to put a US Callsign on it.

And since that episode with Phase 3-D, the FCC has added even MORE stupid rules that ALL satellite builders (including AMSAT) who wish to also license and/or launch their satellites from the USA must now obey. The net result is that the new FCC rules (in an area that really isn't even theirs to regulate...mitigating space debris...) is now simply pushing more and more of the USA's "technical investigation" of new space communications technology to other countries.

The "bottom line" here is that, over the years I've found most technically inclined folks absolutely do NOT need a kick in the pants from a set of overly complex and confusing government regulations in order to carry on their "self-training" and "technical investigations". #On the other hand, based on my observations of the work of our AMSAT experimenters, I've learned that overly-smothering, confusing and mindless bureaucratic government regulation is probably one of the absolute BEST ways to kill it.

Which may be why, as you yourself point out, there is less and less "technical investigation" going on in the Amateur Service these days in the USA.

To borrow a phrase from the old Ziggy cartoon strip, it may well be that, "We have met the enemy and he is us"!

73,

Keith (Baker)
VA3KSF #/ KB1SF

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (kd4mxe @ Nov. 13 2005,15:14)]ag4yo- well well mr charlie you Have come out of your cave , and started slinging mud again , first of all mr charlie I have Been and took the code test 2 times now , and have Been working on it 7mo now , and when I get on hf if you dont want to talk to me thats fine , I will Be glad to grant you your wish , Because its People like you that have Made me want to do every thing I can to get Rid of it as a Requierment , evening when I get it ,and under stand one thing the fcc makes the Rules we go By not your mud slinging a## or me , if the code is all you got in you ,then you dont mean a da# thing , what I look up to is the one that knows his electronic,s his antenna Building , what you should do is worry about what ag4yo dose not what kd4mxe dose if you dont like what I do then tought shi# to you , you dont tell me what to do ,I dont tell you what to do , and dont give a Rat,s a## what you do , so if you want me and you to get this thing going Bring it on But Remember the fcc Makes the Rules and what ever it is I will live with it , catch you on the next post ,73 Bill
Calm down Bill before you have "the big one". Yep, the code is all I got. Poor me. Wish I knew more about them Hammie Radios. What does "volume" mean?

Have a nice day!

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (KC0OFZ @ Nov. 12 2005,19:08)]

Here, case in point. You're a firefighter according to your little ending paragraph. So am I. I am also a Chief. I did not get into my position by getting things handed to me, I worked very hard for it. There is nothing in my station I cannot do, and my tenure in ham radio is no different. You know nothing about me, I know nothing about you. You think I am selfish, I think you're an elitist. So while you're running, you'd better keep up. I'll be waiting for you to come out safely.

Otherwise, we can sling mud all day...


Chris

I was a Fire Chief too for several years. AND, I was too lazy to learn the code to get my license. I was going to every training for the fire service for 35 years, but I wouldn't take a few days and learn the code. Your analogy doesn't fly.

Be interested in hearing about your department sometime.

[N2EY]

Quote[/b] (VA3KSF @ Nov. 14 2005,02:13)]
Quote[/b] ]My point (which seems to have STILL been lost in all the passion) is simply that the rules do NOT have to be overly structured, complicated, or miles deep in order for "self training" and "technical investigation" to take place.

In fact, it's been my own personal experience that the more inane and complicated the government rules become the LESS training and technical investigation there actually is. That's because there's less flexibility in the rules for the experimenters to experiment.


Agreed! But at the same time, as technology advances,
the rules must of necessity become more complex.

Quote[/b] ]I think I can also safely say that AMSAT very much personifies the term "technical investigaton" as it appplies to Amateur Radio.


Agreed again - in that it personifies one type of "technical investigation" out of many.

Quote[/b] ]And during my many years in that leadership role with AMSAT, I quickly learned, for example, that many of our international AMSAT partners (the Germans, Brits, Finns, Japanese, Austrians, Belgians, Hugarians, Czechs and Slovenians just to name a few) who worked on the Phase 3-D satellite project (later called "Oscar 40" when it acheived orbit) have FAR fewer layers of regulation, license classes and oversight in their rules than we do in the USA.


The Japanese have four license classes. I don't know for sure about the other countries.

It should be noted, however, that amateur radio in all those countries is much less common than in North America. By "much less common" I mean that while in the US and Canada there's about 1 ham per 450-500 people, in those countries (except Japan) the ratio is much higher.

The requirements for a license in those countries are also
usually quite different from the multiple-choice published-pool written tests of the USA.

Quote[/b] ]The "bottom line" here is that, over the years I've found most technically inclined folks absolutely do NOT need a kick in the pants from a set of overly complex and confusing government regulations in order to carry on their "self-training" and "technical investigations". On the other hand, based on my observations of the work of our AMSAT experimenters, I've learned that overly-smothering, confusing and mindless bureaucratic government regulation is probably one of the absolute BEST ways to kill it.


I think you're talking apples and oranges, Keith.

Most of the rest of the world isn't launching satellites so there aren't many rules about them. It was that way in the USA once - look at the early Oscars.....

Still, regulators can and do get carried away.

Quote[/b] ]Which may be why, as you yourself point out, there is less and less "technical investigation" going on in the Amateur Service these days in the USA.



That's certainly one factor.

Here are some more:

- For 25-30 years now, US amateur radio has tried to make itself more attractive to "radio hobbyists" by lowering the license requirements - written as well as Morse Code. Look at the 2000 restructuring: the number of *written* tests required for an Extra dropped from 5 to 3, and the total number of questions on those tests was cut from 190 (IIRC) to 120. Nothing new there, just the latest step in a long trend since the late 1970s.

- The relative affluence of the USA and the relative complexity of modern ham gear has caused many hams to give up on even the possibility of homebrewing, let alone experimenting.

73 de Jim, N2EY

[n4ftc]

Quote[/b] (k9ekg @ Nov. 14 2005,01:02)]Quote[/b] (k7zbz @ Nov. 13 2005,20:05)]If anybody thinks there is alot of trash on HF now, wait till code is totally abolished.
You aint seen nothing yet -
Yeah, the pro-code crowd will cry even more...
Get a grip, man.
I'm not crying. Just exactly what is wrong with CW? Ive been an avid cw op (main mode of operation) for 26 years and actually prefer it over other modes of operation.
IMO, if you don't want to learn cw, then you should stay a NCT.
Anyone can learn morse code, its just a matter of putting forth the effort.

[N2EY]

Quote[/b] (k9ekg @ Nov. 13 2005,15:49)]
Quote[/b] ]I do support morse code. I do not support morse code as a specific testing requirement. I do believe people will continue to use it.



I hope you're right.

But how many times in your life have you become
interested in something that you would have ignored
if it hadn't been a requirement?

Quote[/b] ]Someone commented to me a few posts ago about how I was hearing "trash" on HF phone and it was not on CW. What difference does it make? The people are HF phone are the same ones who had to pass a Morse Code test to get on HF, thus the filter arguement.


I think you're referring to my comment.

The difference is that the folks *using* Morse Code aren't the ones causing the problems. And the folks *using* the Morse Code didn't make a fuss about the test, they just
learned Morse Code, passed the test, and use it on the air.

There's no single test that will be a perfect "filter", but that doesn't mean there's no effect or that we should just dump the tests.

Quote[/b] ]I think the biggest thing we need to do is not think of filters, but think of ways to style hams to be appropriate. Not everyone will be, and those people who do not uphold the image of what a ham should be, follow the rules, etc, should be dealt with. It occurs...look at Jack Gerrtisen.


How do we "style hams to be appropriate"?

--

About "elitists" and "incentives" and such:

The reason for multiple levels of license isn't so much
to award titles and class distinctions as it is to provide an
easier path to the top.

Imagine a system with just one class of license. The testing for such a license would have to include everything the govt. decided a ham needed to know to
have all privileges. Under such a system, all new hams would have to learn enough to pass the Extra all at once as their first and only license.

While some folks could do that, and have, is that really the best system? FCC has long thought otherwise, and provided a series of license classes - steps on the ladder, as it were - rather than one big step.

That's why, in the NPRM, FCC reaffirmed its support for a three-level license system.

73 de Jim, N2EY

[kd4mxe]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Nov. 14 2005,03:51)]Quote[/b] (kd4mxe @ Nov. 13 2005,15:14)]ag4yo- well #well mr charlie you Have come out of your cave , and started slinging mud again , first of all mr charlie I have Been #and took the code test 2 times now , and have Been working on it 7mo #now , and when I get on hf if you dont want to talk to me #thats fine , I will Be #glad to grant you your wish , Because its People like you that #have Made me want to do every thing I can to get Rid of it as a Requierment , evening when I get it ,and under stand one thing the fcc makes the Rules we go By not your mud slinging a## or me , if the code is all you got in you ,then you dont mean a da# thing , what I look up to #is the one that knows his electronic,s #his antenna Building , what you should do is worry about what ag4yo #dose not what kd4mxe dose if you dont like what I do then tought shi# to you , you dont tell me what to do ,I dont tell you what to do , and dont give a Rat,s #a## what you do , so if you want #me and you to get this thing going Bring it on #But #Remember #the fcc Makes the Rules and what ever it is I will live with it , catch you on the next post ,73 Bill
Calm down Bill before you have "the big one". #Yep, the code is all I got. #Poor me. #Wish I knew more about them Hammie Radios. #What does "volume" mean? #

Have a nice day!
ag4yo- well mr charlie dont worry about me I am calmed down , you are the one thats living in the past and dont think things should change, But you know as well as I do that things do change , you and I may not like it But time gose on ,and you are any one else can not stop it ,you can sling mud all you want to But it will go on ,and I am sure you Know a lot about electronic,s and you may know the code and thats good , But you being a xtra dose not mean you know the code ,I know a general that got to hf without knowing the code , and you could have as well, and you dont know if all the ones you talk to got it or not , and the Best thing to do is not worry about it ,and I dont , till the next time , 73 good luck Bill

[VA3KSF]

Quote[/b] (N2EY @ Nov. 14 2005,04:33)]

I think you're talking apples and oranges, Keith.

Most of the rest of the world isn't launching satellites so there aren't many rules about them. It was that way in the USA once - look at the early Oscars.....[/QUOTE]
But, Jim, that's the saddest part of all....

It IS the "rest of the world" that's now building and launching most of the world's communications satellites these days...including those of the AMSAT variety. #A good chunk of them are coming out of Europe, and Ham Radio's next "big one" (Phase 3-E) is now under construction in Germany. #Hopefully it will launch sometime in 2006...out of French Guiana. #

There is another US-based Ham Radio satellite on the drawing boards at the moment...the so-called "Eagle" project...but it's still in the paper stage. #Sadly, for a number of reasons (some I've outlined below) it's little more than a "pipe dream" and probably will remain so...at least for the forseeable future.

AMSAT-NA last launched its own small micro-satellite (Oscar 51) about two years ago. # But it wasn't launched from the United States.

Unfortunately, besides the "orbital debris" stupidity there's another issue lurking in the USA that, along with the orbital debris issue, could very well spell the end of #ALL#US-based AMSAT satellite construction. #By the way, speaking of orbital debris, the US Defense Department has now exempted itself from all this orbital debris stuff. #In fact, DOD has apparently kept right on designing its own fleet of "kinetic kill" satellites without even skipping a beat. #Talk about creating an "orbital debris'" problem!

Anyway, the other "600 lb. US Government Gorilla" lurking in AMSAT's closet these days is called ITAR and it's now playing havoc with ALL US-based satellite builders...not just AMSAT. #Briefly, ITAR came about because the US Congress got itself all in a snit a while back when a US built communications satellite was (unsuccessfully) launched on a Chinese rocket. #The resulting uproar from the subsequent#crash investigation resulted in a whole series of insane bureaucratic measures by the US government, ostensibly to prevent so-called "satellite technology transfer" to the "bad guys".

The first thing the US bureaucrats did was to re-classify ALL US-constructed satellite hardware and software (even the commercial and scientific stuff) as "munitions". #They then enacted a scheme to clamp down (again with endless bureaucratic "permission" hoops) to deny (and if found to be allowable, then to require an endless paper trail of reporting) ANY so-called "contacts" with ANY foreign nationals...even those friendly to the United States. #In the eyes of the US Government, any and all such contacts are regarded as a "transfer" of satellite technology. #There are no exceptions.

AMSAT-NA has been trying for years to get most of this foolishness waived because it's a non-profit, scientific and educational organization. #However, so far, there's been no waiver forthcoming to any of this US Government-hatched insanity. #If anything, the export rules for US-built satellites have gotten tighter and ever more convoluted.

Unfortunately, AMSAT'S Phase 3-D satellite got caught up in this unholy mess just about the time we had to export the finished satellite (which, at the time was being assembled in Orlando, Florida) to the Ariane launch site at Kourou, French Guiana. #

What few Hams knew at the time (most still don't) was that AMSAT came very, very close to having our multi-million dollar Phase 3-D satellite permanently impounded by US Customs. #In fact, for a while it actually WAS! #

Even though we had taken great care to get the proper "munitions" export license and we were using an experienced and bonded international exporter, some high-handed customs agent in Atlanta decided (apparently all on their own) to play games with us over the ITAR rules.

After letting the satellite be loaded onto a cargo plane bound for Paris, France (and then on to French Guyana), US Customs then deliberately (though this was later denied by US Customs in subsequent correspondence) kept the wrong copy of our export documentation. #

The end result was that our satellite was "illegally" exported. It was subsequently impounded for several days enroute (first in Paris and then in a filthy dirty, non-air conditioned warehouse at the airport in French Guiana) while AMSAT paid well over $5,000 (money that we absolutely didn't have at that point) to hire yet another export specialist to intercede with US Customs to get our bird out of "jail". #

What really made all of us ripping mad at the time was that US Customs later denied ALL responsibility for their actions and actually blamed AMSAT (in writing!) for the whole thing! #Furthermore, we also had to accept that blame if we wanted to get our satellite back. #If we didn't do so (again in writing!) then (as we were summarily informed) US Customs was fully prepared to keep our satellite....permanently. #

What they would have done with it is anyone's guess.

Sadly, such insane US bureaucratic "overkill" is now pushing the design, construction and launch of a lot of future communications and other "peaceful purpose" satellites...even those built by AMSAT...overseas. #Naturally, no satellite builder in their right mind wants to deal with all the US Government-imposed ITAR, FCC-imposed orbital debris and "shifting" US Customs rules and regulations if they can possibly avoid it, particularly those related to non-military satellites. #So, many US-based communications companies (including AMSAT-NA) are simply now having foreign builders and foreign launch agencies build and launch their satellites.

The bottom line here is that it will now be a cold day in "you-know-where" before an AMSAT satellite will ever again fly with a US license and a US callsign. #

And that, my friends, is what's really, really sad.


73,

Keith
VA3KSF / KB1SF

[wa4dou]

I received meaningful entry level privileges with a Novice license 44 years ago. I'll bet they still have meaningful entry level privileges available today. Hundreds of thousands have made it the Technician class license. I'll bet money that each and every one of them could obtain what they would consider meaningful privileges if they applied themselves to the task.

[KE7DFP]

The old Novice ticket kept no one out of amateur radio. #The Novice written test was no more difficult than the present General test. #Both HAD a 5 wpm test of a basic operating skill. #ANYONE could pass the novice ticket and get a small CW portion in hf to continue growing on. Today, at least with the Code requirement still required, the same effort gets you 100 watts OUT, 75% of all the operating bands, and phone segments, which weren't even offered to the original Novices. #So now we take away the 5 wpm code, and give the newcomer 10 times more than a novice got, for a lot less effort. #This is going to destroy Ham Radio? Nowdays, General Class IS the entry level for hf frequencies. #Instead of the 75 watts INPUT to the final amp (meaning 40 watts OUT) the newbie gets a 100 Watts out and a truck load of extra provileges. #Al he is required to do for this is pass the most rudimentary testing of the operating procedures and regulations, he will need to know to correctly operate on the new bands. #Is #that really asking too much? Now the ARRL #suggests that discriminatory and handicapping perspective applicants? #Why can't I shake it out of my head that this has something to do with the business of selling transcievers? #Remember, the goal is not to fill up the bands, the goal is fill the Bands with quality. Some would even say their plenty full, how about a little more quality.

[N5USN]

wa4dou said:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I received meaningful entry level privileges with a Novice license 44 years ago. I'll bet they still have meaningful entry level privileges available today. Hundreds of thousands have made it the Technician class license. I'll bet money that each and every one of them could obtain what they would consider meaningful privileges if they applied themselves to the task.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First you must assume that I would consider these meaningful privileges as being an upgrade. Could I not be happy where I am as a Tech? Why must I apply myself toward a goal I don't wish to achieve?

Regards,

N5USN

[wa4dou]

N5USN, if you are happy where you are as a Technician class licensee, why are you posting in this thread? (BTW, I was a sonar technician on tin cans in the mid '60's thru early '70's)

[wy2u]

Quote[/b] (KE7DFP @ Nov. 14 2005,12:06)]The old Novice ticket kept no one out of amateur radio. The Novice written test was no more difficult than the present General test. Both HAD a 5 wpm test of a basic operating skill. ANYONE could pass the novice ticket and get a small CW portion in hf to continue growing on. Today, at least with the Code requirement still required, the same effort gets you 100 watts OUT, 75% of all the operating bands, and phone segments, which weren't even offered to the original Novices. So now we take away the 5 wpm code, and give the newcomer 10 times more than a novice got, for a lot less effort. This is going to destroy Ham Radio? Nowdays, General Class IS the entry level for hf frequencies. Instead of the 75 watts INPUT to the final amp (meaning 40 watts OUT) the newbie gets a 100 Watts out and a truck load of extra provileges. Al he is required to do for this is pass the most rudimentary testing of the operating procedures and regulations, he will need to know to correctly operate on the new bands. Is that really asking too much? Now the ARRL suggests that discriminatory and handicapping perspective applicants? Why can't I shake it out of my head that this has something to do with the business of selling transcievers? Remember, the goal is not to fill up the bands, the goal is fill the Bands with quality. Some would even say their plenty full, how about a little more quality.
Randy,

You put an interesting spin on this thread that I had not considered before.

If you really put things into proper perspective, a person studying for the General class ticket today would have about 550% of the priviledges of yesterday's Novice for about the same total study time expenditure.

Now that ain't bad at all. It is amazing, then, that some people would consider that to be "too much" and would want to abolish 50% of the requirement (Morse testing)


Great post.

73 ... de .... WY2U ..... Mike

[k9ekg]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Nov. 14 2005,03:59)]Quote[/b] (KC0OFZ @ Nov. 12 2005,19:08)]

Here, case in point. You're a firefighter according to your little ending paragraph. So am I. I am also a Chief. I did not get into my position by getting things handed to me, I worked very hard for it. There is nothing in my station I cannot do, and my tenure in ham radio is no different. You know nothing about me, I know nothing about you. You think I am selfish, I think you're an elitist. So while you're running, you'd better keep up. I'll be waiting for you to come out safely.

Otherwise, we can sling mud all day...


Chris

I was a Fire Chief too for several years. AND, I was too lazy to learn the code to get my license. I was going to every training for the fire service for 35 years, but I wouldn't take a few days and learn the code. Your analogy doesn't fly.

Be interested in hearing about your department sometime.
I hope you are talking about yourself. I have learned the code. My analogy flies perfect.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (KE7DFP @ Nov. 14 2005,12:06)]The old Novice ticket kept no one out of amateur radio. #The Novice written test was no more difficult than the present General test. #
The old Novice ticket had a much LESS difficult test than General. It was a real entry level license, something we DO NOT have today.

I support a revival of the Novice license, but without CW test (but keeping the Novice CW segments of the bands), and with appropriate narrow HF voice segments on 80, 40, 15 and 10 metres. 100 watts, 2 years non-renewable.

[wa4dou]

You can feel free to call me an elitist and I'm not ashamed of it either.

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Nov. 14 2005,16:53)]Quote[/b] (KE7DFP @ Nov. 14 2005,12:06)]The old Novice ticket kept no one out of amateur radio. #The Novice written test was no more difficult than the present General test. #
The old Novice ticket had a much LESS difficult test than General. #It was a real entry level license, something we DO NOT have today.

I support a revival of the Novice license, but without CW test (but keeping the Novice CW segments of the bands), and with appropriate narrow HF voice segments on 80, 40, 15 and 10 metres. #100 watts, 2 years non-renewable.
What do we need a "meaningful entry level" license for
with the watered down exam system of today?
These "low code", and soon to be "no-code" General
and Extra exams with the published answers
ARE "entry level" IMO .

When an Extra class has "no clue" as to what basic
amplitude modulation is,--it speaks for itself.

It USED to be that a Novice exam was less difficult
than a General,(years ago) but I think the present
General exam of today, from what I have seen is LESS
difficult than the Novice test of years ago.
At least a Novice(of years ago) did know ohms law how a basic dipole worked.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # #73, K1MVP

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (k9ekg @ Nov. 14 2005,13:48)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Nov. 14 2005,03:59)]Quote[/b] (KC0OFZ @ Nov. 12 2005,19:08)]

Here, case in point. You're a firefighter according to your little ending paragraph. So am I. I am also a Chief. I did not get into my position by getting things handed to me, I worked very hard for it. There is nothing in my station I cannot do, and my tenure in ham radio is no different. You know nothing about me, I know nothing about you. You think I am selfish, I think you're an elitist. So while you're running, you'd better keep up. I'll be waiting for you to come out safely.

Otherwise, we can sling mud all day...


Chris

I was a Fire Chief too for several years. AND, I was too lazy to learn the code to get my license. I was going to every training for the fire service for 35 years, but I wouldn't take a few days and learn the code. Your analogy doesn't fly.

Be interested in hearing about your department sometime.
I hope you are talking about yourself. I have learned the code. My analogy flies perfect.
LOL! Of course it does.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (K1MVP @ Nov. 14 2005,20:20)]Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Nov. 14 2005,16:53)]Quote[/b] (KE7DFP @ Nov. 14 2005,12:06)]The old Novice ticket kept no one out of amateur radio. #The Novice written test was no more difficult than the present General test. #
The old Novice ticket had a much LESS difficult test than General. #It was a real entry level license, something we DO NOT have today.

I support a revival of the Novice license, but without CW test (but keeping the Novice CW segments of the bands), and with appropriate narrow HF voice segments on 80, 40, 15 and 10 metres. #100 watts, 2 years non-renewable.
What do we need a "meaningful entry level" license for
with the watered down exam system of today?
These "low code", and soon to be "no-code" General
and Extra exams with the published answers
ARE "entry level" IMO .

When an Extra class has "no clue" as to what basic
amplitude modulation is,--it speaks for itself.

It USED to be that a Novice exam was less difficult
than a General,(years ago) but I think the present
General exam of today, from what I have seen is LESS
difficult than the Novice test of years ago.
At least a Novice(of years ago) did know ohms law how a basic dipole worked.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # #73, K1MVP
I understand what you are saying. The current Technician is serving as an entry level license when it should not be. Along with a REAL entry level license, should be exams for the higher levels appropriate to the privileges (not rights) conferred.

It is sad if an Extra doesn't know what AM is. But that is not new. I have known hams from 30 years ago who learned just enough for the license, then promptly forgot. Pretty rare, but still there. There just seems to be more of them today (or maybe they are just more likely to admit it!)

I still think there should be a "get your feet wet" non-renewable license. The ones we would retain after that Novice period are more likely to be a credit to the service, IMO.

[VA3KSF]

[QUOTE=Quote ]
When an Extra class has "no clue" as to what basic
amplitude modulation is,--it speaks for itself.

It USED to be that a Novice exam was less difficult
than a General,(years ago) but I think the present
General exam of today, from what I have seen is LESS
difficult than the Novice test of years ago.
At least a Novice(of years ago) did know ohms law how a basic dipole worked.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # #73, K1MVP
Rene,

I well understand we have "agreed to disagree" on most of these issues, but I'm still curious.

What emperical evidence do you now have to support such assertions and broad generalities?

Have you (or someone else) done some statistical sampling with follow-up analysis among a representative group of Extra Class license holders to know with some level of confidence that Extras (in general) have "no clue as to what basic amplitude modulation is"? #

You mention "an Extra". #But is this also true of a statistical sampling of five? Ten? One Hundred? A Thousand?

Just because some subject matter is now contained in a test does NOT also mean it isn't general knowledge among a population. #For example, because I'd worked in the broadcast industry for many years while I was in college, I was well aware of what Amplitude Modulation was long before I became a Novice Ham. #

And, while I understand and empathize with your feelings that, for example, the General test of today may appear "easier" than the Novice test of long ago, that, too, might well be an illusion. #

When doing such comparisons, it is extremely important to also remember that those of us who have been Hams for a long time also have the benefit of years of our own practical experience with this material to draw on since we, ourselves, took a similar test. #

However, back then, these tests (even the basic ones) may have appeared "harder" for us because a lot of the material contained therein was "new".

As far as Ohm's Law and simple dipoles is concerned, the last time I checked, both subjects were well covered in the US General as well as the Canadian Basic exam question pools.


73,

Keith
VA3KSF / KB1SF

[ky5u]

And, just for the record...

The posts here by non-US Amateurs are always enlightening and entertaining, but they have as much relevence as France has to ANYTHING. And that would be little or none.

If you are a dual citizen, you've made your choice by posting under the foreign call. Keep the opinions coming, but why would I debate a foreigner on US rules? Most any other subject, no problem...

[kd4mxe]

Quote[/b] (VA3KSF @ Nov. 15 2005,06:04)][QUOTE=Quote ]