EchoLink and Ecomms

[N5PVL]

During the course of any emergency, Internet connections in the affected area are typically stressed near to or past the point of breakdown. These fragile connections should be preserved as long as possible, as they are essential to preserving lives and property.

Loading up these vital, overstressed internet links with a sudden rash of high bandwidth VOIP requests is utterly irresponsible, directly endangering the lives and property of persons living in the affected area, to no particular purpose.

Rubberneckers are seldom seen as valuable in any situation.

How much innocent blood must drip from the hands of EchoLink enthusiasts before the "mode" is outlawed altogether, I wonder?

First rule for EchoLink in an emergency: Turn it off!

Let's try and remember that amateur radio is supposed to enhance, not undermine the ability to communicate during an emergency.

Step aside for real hams using ham radio, and stop endangering lives and property with EchoLink during emergencies.

[KC9ECI]

Is that dead horse starting to stink yet?

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (KC9ECI @ Oct. 23 2005,12:19)]Is that dead horse starting to stink yet?
No. In this case, it's a hobby horse.


http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KC9ECI]

In the course of an emergency, were you the victim, I don't think you'd give a rats behind HOW help was called for, as long as it WAS called for and on the way. Ever hear the old saying 'any port in a storm?' How about 'by any means available in an emergency?' That means packet, Echolink, CW, phone, semaphore, smoke signals, carrier pigeon, trained dolphin, foot messenger, cave drawings, deal with the devil, any of the above, none of the above or some combination of the above.

[KA3RFE]

I agree. The important thing is that the message gets sent and received and a response is made in a timely manner. What difference does it make how it's done?

[KB9YCO]

I can't imagine that the internet is ever the last resort in an emergency, if it is and it helps someone than so be it, that's not a hindrance to communication. If phone lines are down, and other conventional systems, it's doubtful that the internet is even available anyway.
Plus, if you truly feel that way about VOIP programs then it is a perfect opportunity to stress the importance of traditional radio and emergency power. Why get upset about Echolink when you can stress the importance to others of traditional radio to radio contact? Again, VOIP is by far the least important thing to be worrying about in the type of situation.

Pulverize that horsemeat, it makes it softer on the dog's teeth in the Alpo.

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (KB9YCO @ Oct. 23 2005,15:12)]Pulverize that horsemeat, it makes it softer on the dog's teeth in the Alpo.
Zooks! They put dogs' teeth in Alpo?

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (KA3RFE @ Oct. 23 2005,15:11)]What difference does it make how it's done?
Depends on what wagons you're circling, and why.

[kc0tik]

Hmm, So next time i am in an area that has no Echolink, I should NOT set up my portable Echolink node for people to use?

When i was down in Pass Christion MS. delivering Food and Water, Sitting there in my cab of the truck was my laptop (Verizon Broadband card But no Verizon Cell phones worked yet), handheld connected to laptop, with Echolink set up and being used. Next thing i guess APRS with my echolink node to let people know it is there should be shut off too?

Guess my WiFi internet that i can offer in emergancy should be shut off too. Might have an e-mail get out of the devistated area.

Rob
KC0TIK

Edited to fix a few typos. Just woke up!

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (kc0tik @ Oct. 23 2005,13:33)]Hmm, So next time i am in an area that has no Echolink, I should NOT set up my portable Echolink node for people to use?

When i was down in Pass Christion MS. delivering Food and Water, Sitting there in my cab of the truck was my laptop (Verizon Broadband card But no Verizon Cell phones worked yet), handheld connected to laptop, with Echolink set up and being used. Next thing i guess APRS with my echolink node to let people know it is there should be shut off too?

Guess my WiFi internet that i can offer in emergancy should be shut off too. Might have an e-mail get out of the devistated area.

Rob
KC0TIK

Edited to fix a few typos. Just woke up!
No, you should have come to New Orleans where none of that would have worked. The only thing that stopped communications getting back sooner was lack of a plan. Like many, the emergency coordinators thought their systems were invincible. Denial and shock prevented them from asking me for help earlier. I deployed several generators to EOCs and to tower sites for them.

There was an excellent article in QST about the guys at Tulane Medical Center working with the hospital to arrange airlift by Amateur Radio. The article referenced flooded EOC generators. Glad to know I ultimately put them out of business....LOL!!

If each EOC had a car battery and a HF rig with a Morse Code key, they would have been on the air. But heaven forbid they admit they threw the baby out with the bath water.

[N5PVL]

Personally, I wonder which part of my post these clever folks are having trouble comprehending...

The part about ( still working ) Internet connections in an emergency area being stressed, and not needing to be flooded with frivolous and unnecessary bandwidth-hogging VOIP links - or that lives and property are more important than thier widdle egos.

[KC9ECI]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 23 2005,20:18)]Personally, I wonder which part of my post these clever folks are having trouble comprehending...

The part about ( still working ) Internet connections in an emergency area being stressed, and not needing to be flooded with frivolous and unnecessary bandwidth-hogging VOIP links - or that lives and property are more important than thier widdle egos.
IF it's the only means at hand, I'd take the chance and stress it.

[N5PVL]

KC9ECI says:
Quote[/b] ]
IF it's the only means at hand, I'd take the chance and stress it.


A) If you can do VOIP, then you can also do Email, which takes a fraction of the bandwidth, is more accurate and gives you a record of what was said for future reference.

Obviously then EchoLink will never be the "only means at hand", just the only one that endangers the ability to communicate at all by presenting the affected Internet connection with a high-bandwidth load, to no particular purpose.

B) Re: My mention of 'rubberneckers': Far and away the majority of EchoLink activity related to Ecomms consists of rubberneckers hooking up to repeaters in affected areas so they can "hear the action".

Shutting down EchoLink during an emergency does not deny anybody the ability to communicate... Quite the opposite, in fact.

If you are going to be critical, hey maybe you ought to put in a little time to be sure you know what you are talking about. - I did, and so can you.

If part of what I was saying whizzed over your head, then maybe some of the rest of it did, too. Maybe you should try re-reading my post and thinking things through. I thought I was being pretty clear there, but it's hard to be clear to everybody all the time, especially when thier widdle egoes get involved.

Personally, I could care less about hurting somebody's feelings when lives and property are at risk. With a storm approaching Florida as we speak, I see this warning as being quite relevant and ( if you care about other people's lives ) very important.

Especially when there is so much ignorance and misinformation floating around, in relation to EchoLink and Ecomms.

[KC9ECI]

I won't disagree that echolink in a good means of communication during an emergency, but I would prefer to use it over email just to have that near instant confirmation. I could send an email, and then how long should I wait to confirm that the person I sent it to got it? Were I reduced to using Echolink, I should know within a few moments that my message was received. I could also use an instant messenger a la ICQ or AIM or whatnot to do the same thing and use far less bandwidth.


Quote[/b] ]If you are going to be critical, hey maybe you ought to put in a little time to be sure you know what you are talking about. - I did, and so can you.

You think you did anyway.

[KE7DZZ]

I think and I may be wrong, that the point he trying to make is that Echolink was tying up freqs that would be used for regular voice comm, I personally don't use Echolink, and I only use IRLP for LD because I haven't upgraded to general as of this writing, so I cannot use HF for LD comms.

[N5PVL]

KC9ECI says:
Quote[/b] ]
I could also use an instant messenger a la ICQ or AIM or whatnot to do the same thing and use far less bandwidth.

Any kind of text messaging is preferable to VOIP over an Internet link that is being pushed to the limits of its capacity, as is typically the case during any emergency.

The basic idea is responsible use of the Internet.

One other problem I see with EchoLink is that EchoLink devotees are so hung up on VOIP that it never occurs to them to use amateur radio to communicate. - They fight the idea like a fresh-caught fish, and will even disparage efforts by others to do so.

That attitude is contrary to the best interests of a lot more than just amateur radio, when they start to infect our planning and implimentation of ecomms.

I'm not interested in seeing amateur radio discredited by a group who gets on the Internet and claims that what they are doing is ham radio. Sorry OM, but there it is.

If you are really so much more impressed with the Internet than you are in ham radio, it would seem to me that responsible use of the Internet would be job number one.

Right? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[KC9ECI]

Never said I was impressed with the internet. It's just another tool.

[kf6rdn]

Quote[/b] (KC9ECI @ Oct. 23 2005,18:57)]I won't disagree that echolink in a good means of communication during an emergency, but I would prefer to use it over email just to have that near instant confirmation. #I could send an email, and then how long should I wait to confirm that the person I sent it to got it? #Were I reduced to using Echolink, I should know within a few moments that my message was received. #I could also use an instant messenger a la ICQ or AIM or whatnot to do the same thing and use far less bandwidth. #


Quote[/b] ]If you are going to be critical, hey maybe you ought to put in a little time to be sure you know what you are talking about. - I did, and so can you.

You think you did anyway.
It is also not impossible for infrastructure servers to be down, i.e. smtp gateways (email) but to have general connectivity. And you will not KNOW this when you email.

Has nothing to do with "widdle egos" that's silly, it's whatever works.

As far as the people connecting to in area repeaters to "hear the action", yes I will agree, that's criminally irresponsbile, and I would think whoever is running the node would shut that down.

I haven't screwed around with EL much, but I thought it was mainly a node-node/computer mode, and not node to repeater? Isn't IRLP the usual repeater connection?

[W3MIV]

I would agree with Charles to the extent that "rubber-neckers" occupying bandwidth during times of crisis are undesirable and we all should be conscious of how we might be interfering with other communications.

However, ECI made a good point. If VOIP is an available link in real-time, though it may be stressed, it should be used. Email, however less bandwidth it may require, is not a "real-time" communications link. In time of emergency, if there is a live voice on the line, whether that line is a land-wire, a VHF repeater or EchoLink, it should be used as necessary to accomplish the mission.

[N5PVL]

Instant messaging is real-time and text-based.

In fact, instant messaging will give you real-time commo over connections that cannot support VOIP links at all.

There really is no substitute for responsible use of resources, and as amateurs we should be beyond reproach in this respect. We are expected to be technically competent and responsible individuals, but that expectation must be earned through consistently proper action.

My purpose with this topic is to give amateurs a 'heads up' about a potential source of self-embarassment. Internet providers keep a detailed log of all activity on thier systems.

If a sudden rash of VOIP requests made by amateurs end up being associated with a service interruption or failure during a time of crisis, this will not reflect positively upon amateur radio. If the incident ends up being reported and widely known, it could have a detrimental effect upon our reputation with Congress and the FCC. We don't want that.

Worst of all, it could very eaily lead to loss of lives and property as well. Reported or not, who wants to step up and speak here in favor of lost lives and property?

How much innocent blood should drip from the hands of irresponsible EchoLink enthusiasts before they be expected to start thinking of someone besides themselves, and thier 'pet mode'?

[KD6NIG]

Now I could be wrong, but I think the only point of this post was the fact that Echolink is ABUSED by outsiders outside of the disaster area that want to get in and hear whats going on, or to ask questions of people who are likely in a position to not be able to do so at that point, tying up repeaters that probably need to be used for emergency traffic.

I think the responsible thing to cure this problem would be for the makers of IRLP and Echolink to include some kind of facility that would allow normal traffic on a repeater to override Echolink traffic if there is an emergency. There should also be an ability to 'lock out' Echolink if all it is being used for is for people to come in and try to listen to the disaster as it is happening. Expecting some of today's ham ops to be responsible and not do so is obviously not the solution at this time.

I understand if someone wants to hook up so they are available to relay emergency traffic, but a good portion of the people 'hooking up' nowadays just want to get on there so they can talk to someone riding out the storm, just so they can say they talked to someone in the middle of it. This isn't proper usage of Ham radio resources during an emergency.

I have stated this before in other threads-the IRLP and Echolink systems need to come up with a system that allows them to lock out abusive callsigns (that connect via computer) or abusive nodes (ie, people that connect from a repeater to another) if they continue to do this. The only way they will be stopped is to be blocked from doing so. Perhaps if this started occuring the abusers of the system would stop, and I'm sure a repeater owner that found himself unable to connect to other users would probably at least make an effort to tell the station abusing the system to stop doing so.

The system was designed with honest users in mind, but nowadays not every amateur follows the code to the letter, so safeguards must be built into the system to keep repeaters available for those who need it in an emergency.

I agree with using every mode of communication possible in an emergency, but I think the author was going after those who choose to abuse the system so they can hear things happening 'live' from the disaster. This isn't proper usage and should be enforced againt-and this is something the authors of IRLP and Echolink should address.

[ab2m]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 24 2005,06:47)]Worst of all, it could very eaily lead to loss of lives and property as well. Reported or not, who wants to step up and speak here in favor of lost lives and property?

How much innocent blood should drip from the hands of irresponsible EchoLink enthusiasts before they be expected to start thinking of someone besides themselves, and thier 'pet mode'?
Good Lord, sir.. #I haven't read a post in quite some time that made me question the competency of the poster as yours have done here.

Normal Echolink connections use 17kbps of bandwidth. #That's less bandwidth than given you by a 28.8kbps dial-up modem. #Given that most Cable/DSL providers afford their customers 128kbps upload at minimum, well, you can do the math, but it's slightly over 10% of their available bandwith WHEN there are communications being transmitted. #Streaming video from CNN.COM and MP3 downloading are far more bandwidth consuming. #To date, CNN has not been held responsible for any deaths that I am aware of. # Itunes, as yet, has no blood on its hands that has been documented.

The idea of VOIP causing "loss of lives and property" is about as ludicrous an idea as using SSB phone vs. CW would lead to similar consequences. # I would be quite interested in the circumstances you've envisioned that would lead to this calamity - would you care to elaborate, please?

Echolink has many uses (and potential uses; I for one do not think that we've explored the ways it can assist in emergencies). #While the purists may decry it as not being "ham radio" (and have a certain point), it is a communications tool that augments Amateur Radio communications in a unique and helpful way. # You may not like it; you may not agree with me; but you cannot argue that it's going to kill people (especially without some shred of a theory behind it) and have anyone take you seriously.

Hello Sirs,
What is it with Radio Amateurs?
There is Always talk of how Amateur Radio is going to Die? there is Always talk of needing New Amateurs, There is Always Amateurs Bashing others? There is Always Amateurs Bashing the Modes of use?
ect, ect, I could go on All day and All night!

When will Amateurs learn to live in peace and work Together?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

If Echo link serves to Save Life then so be it, And Well done to those who save lives doing so!

If Echo link fails like any other mode, then switch to one that is workable? However, Don’t Bash those who have made the Best use of what is Available to them!

Radio Amateurs are there own Worst Enemy???

Respect to All those Amateurs who have used their Radio knowledge to save Lives (The ones who have Actually Done So)
73s de Samantha 2e1dau

Edit:
Is Yahoo soon to Replace Amateur Radio Anyway?
And is that Not Echo link?? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
QSY to Room 101 English with ya Web cam!! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[N5PVL]

ab2m says
Quote[/b] ]
Good Lord, sir.. #I haven't read a post in quite some time that made me question the competency of the poster as yours have done here.

Many schools now offer remedial reading courses for adults. - I assume here that you have of course made some attempt to read and understand the entire thread before replying here.

If you cannot follow the issue here sir, you have my sympathy.

I am also sorry that you appear to have no sympathy or feeling of your own for the people this moronic, irresponsible practice endangers.

Most amateurs are pretty good about caring about things like that... You should get someone to explain to you why human lives and property are more important than your personal entertainment. - I'm sure that once you get that concept under your hat, then this topic will no longer be such a mystery to you.

[ab2m]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 30 2005,04:36)]You should get someone to explain to you why human lives and property are more important than your personal entertainment. - I'm sure that once you get that concept under your hat, then this topic will no longer be such a mystery to you.
You should get someone to explain your objections as something other than alarmist drivel. Then, someone as uneducated as myself might be willing to give your posts more than the 30 seconds they now command.

Until you do.. CONOK OFF

[N5PVL]

Awwww. #Poor thing! http://www.uspacket.org/images/misc/crybaby.jpg

Can dish it out, but he can't take it!

[N5PVL]

KD6NIG says:
Quote[/b] ]
I agree with using every mode of communication possible in an emergency, but I think the author was going after those who choose to abuse the system so they can hear things happening 'live' from the disaster. #This isn't proper usage and should be enforced againt-and this is something the authors of IRLP and Echolink should address.

I'm not sure how this could be done... Maybe an emergency mode where the "listen" feature is automatically disabled.

There would still be the problem with clueless ya-hoos connecting and cluttering up the repeater at a bad time. That happened here earlier this year... Two idiots from hundreds of miles away connected and tied up the repeater here, talking about motorhomes while a hurricane was blowing through here.

The control operator was out in his yard, trying to deal with blown-down antennas and was unaware of the situation. Things like that tend to happen during emergencies.

I watched limbs being blown down in my yard while all this was going on, and couldn't get a word in edgewise. One idiot was KB0VLI, I didn't get the other one's call.

The irony meter pegged out when KB0VLI started mindlessly bloviating at great length - about how great EchoLink is during emergencies.

[kd7kss]

The old hands need to quit complaining about Echolink and eQSO. Your computer is nothing but diodes, capacitors, transistors.....ect. Guess what,.....so is a radio. So to all those who are too scared to move into the 21st century........roll with the punches y'all.:p

[N5PVL]

... And all this time, I thought it was hams confusing radio communication with being online!

I appreciate the clarification there... I never would have guessed it was amateurs confusing their radios with their computers!http://www.uspacket.org/images/smiley.gif

Note that I created the 'Ya-yah' image above and it has been under copyright for several years now, so I'm the only one who gets to use it here on QRZ... Ya-Yah!

[AD5CA]

As hurricane Rita approached the Gulf Coast, I received 3 e-mails from "hams" that wanted to know if there would be anyone to let them know by echolink what was happening as the storm blew thru. #One of the requests was from a guy in Canada….I am sure we could have counted on him for a lot of help! #Fortunately for our area, the storm bypassed us. #However, I can guarantee that informing a bunch of spectators would have been the last thing on my mind as things were bouncing off our heads.
#I will not say that echolink is not Amateur radio, but its value as a means of emergency communications is questionable.

Mark # AD5CA
EC Nueces Co. #STX
DXCC WAC WAZ WAS WAN (worked all neighbors)

[kd7kss]

You are correct. Since the beginning of time there have been "ambulance chasers" and there will always be. We can't fight that. But as for Echolink being real radio i say it is. Just the other night i used a fellow HAM's remote link to make QSO's to Germany,France,Australia and quite a few other places. Even though my "signal" originated from my computer, it was sent by his radio thru his antenna to these places. If thats not HAM radio, i don't know what is. 73's y'all.http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[N5PVL]

KD7KSS says:
Quote[/b] ]
Even though my "signal" originated from my computer, it was sent by his radio thru his antenna to these places.

EchoLink uses an Internet VOIP chat, not your friend's radio or antenna to hook you up to distant places. Your friend's radio and antenna only go the distance to the local repeater, that's all when using EchoLink.

Sometimes it is hard to credit that liscensed amateurs could possibly be confused on this matter, but this type of confusion appears to be typical among EchoLink users. - Indicating a great need for more comprehensive and stringent testing requirements in order to obtain an amateur radio liscense.

PART97 calls for amateur radio to establish a pool of knowlegable and skilled radio operators. The citizen's band and FRS already provide a generous pool of uneducated appliance operators, so there is no need to degrade the amateur radio service in order to obtain more of those.

[kb2vxa]

Depends on what wagons you're circling, and why.

Replace "wagons" with "jerks" and you'll see it from another perspective.

[N5KRC]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 31 2005,12:28)]KD7KSS says:
Quote[/b] ]
Even though my "signal" originated from my computer, it was sent by his radio thru his antenna to these places.

EchoLink uses an Internet VOIP chat, not your friend's radio or antenna to hook you up to distant places. Your friend's radio and antenna only go the distance to the local repeater, that's all when using EchoLink.

Actually, there are several HF gateways on EchoLink. They allow you to connect to them over the voip network, and your signal goes out via HF transcievers hooked up to antennas that are able to communicate just as far as a radio-only equiped HF station.

Quote[/b] ]
Sometimes it is hard to credit that liscensed amateurs could possibly be confused on this matter, but this type of confusion appears to be typical among EchoLink users. - Indicating a great need for more comprehensive and stringent testing requirements in order to obtain an amateur radio liscense.

And this "type of confusion appears to be typical among" anti-echolink users. Even if the tests were revised tomorrow to include 200 more technical questions, it still wouldn't changed the fact that already liscensed amateurs wouldn't have to retest. So, your point of making the tests harder is moot; You personally still wouldn't know anything more about the technology you are trying to argue.

Quote[/b] ]PART97 calls for amateur radio to establish a pool of knowlegable and skilled radio operators. The citizen's band and FRS already provide a generous pool of uneducated appliance operators, so there is no need to degrade the amateur radio service in order to obtain more of those.

So, is it time to trade in your "shack" for a stylish FRS radio? In my opinion, a "knowlegable and skilled radio operator" would be one that is not only proficient in modes that have been around for decades, but also new emerging technologies.

I guess we can beat this horse over and over and over. What is "degarding the amateur radio service" are you people who treat your fellow amateurs this way. If it's not your way, then it's not right; whether you understand what your arguing about or not.

Scott, N5KRC

And for the record, I'm not pro-echolink. My HF rig and dipoles do me just fine.