View Full Version : ARRL Testifies B4 Congress, Stubs Toe
On September 29, ARRL Chief Operating Officer Harold Kramer, WJ1B, testified before the House Subcommittee on Telecommunications and the Internet about how well amateur radio came through for the people of the Gulf Coast following Katrina. #The Committee asked the ARRL to testify, which was quite an honor. #Not something that happens whenever someone or some organization has a perceived need to communicate with Congress. #Definitely much more meaningful than a photo-op with a Member of Congress.
Why was the League invited? #Ostensibly, to comment about interoperability of telecommunications following hurricane Katrina. #You can read the ARRL news blurb (http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2005/09/30/2/) for yourself. #Now, here's where it gets really interesting.
We've all been told by the ARRL of the third submission of Representative Steven Israel's Bill to overrule CC&Rs and require PRB-1's reasonable accommodations instead. #That happened on September 23, amid much fanfare and even a local Long Island TV news reporter interviewed Mr. Israel.
According to the House of Representative's Bill Summary report, the Bill was immediately sent to the House Energy and Commerce Committee, to the attention of its Subcommittee on Telecommunications and the Internet. #So, the very Subcommittee that Kramer read his pre-prepared testimony to was the group that sat on, and killed Israel's two former Bills proposing to do the same thing: Apply PRB-1 to homeowner association CC&Rs.
Nothing, I repeat, nothing in what Kramer read to the Subcommittee had anything to say about what amateur radio's greatest threat to not only its future, but its ability to do, over and over again, what it did so well in the aftermath of Katrina. #Only Kramer's statements that amateur radio would continue to do it again and again with no exception.
Among the successes Kramer noted, were the federally-sponsored SHARES and MARS programs, and their linkages into and from the area via HF. #Obviously, we know that successful, dependable HF communications requires good antennas. #Not just mobile whips.
So, Kramer left them with the impression that "everything was robust and OK with amateur radio's ability to communicate in disasters."
Really? #So, now, the League wants us to again write our Congressional Representatives, and tell them, individually, that unless PRB-1 is expanded to pre-empt CC&R prohibitions, we won't be effective communicators?
Let's hear your opinion why the ARRL said nothing while this golden opportunity presented itself. #An opportunity to tell the very Committee that killed the prior two Bills just why we need to have CC&Rs pre-empted. # No, I don't think it was stupidity or the excuse that "they didn't want us to say anything else." #Those presenting pre-prepared written testimony have a great deal of latitude in what they put in their testimony.
Were they silent because they really don't want CC&Rs pre-empted so that there won't be a flood of us on HF when all code requirements are lifted? #Or, is it in the interest of limiting HF to only those that have antennas now: The privileged few? #In any case, the ARRL needs to hear from each and every one of us.
They heard from me about a week ago, and, as I expected, no reply.
73,
Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL
w5jon
10-15-2005, 03:01 AM
Possibly when the ARRL knows of an individual's historical bias against them, they see no reason to reply, to that individual.
Is the ARRL always right, no.
Is the ARRL always wrong, no.
Would Amateur Radio be better without the ARRL, no.
73,
John W5JON
It is time the ARRL is replaced with an organization that fully supports amateur radio and has an indisputable interest in hams. It seem they are now a marking organization selling books and items instead of resolving the very serious problem of antenna restrictions that confronts a good number amateurs. I agree, they missed a golden opportunity to bring this issue up.
w4hwd
10-15-2005, 03:41 AM
Here's a good way to avoid the restrictions that usually ride shotgun with CC&Rs...don't move into a subdivision!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Seriously, though...exactly how is the gub'ment supposed to gain jurisdiction over a legal and private contract, signed by a legal adult of his own free will, when the contract specifically states, among other things, antenna restrictions. That's a private contract. You sign of your own free will? What? Is Congress going to invoke an unconstitutional use for the Commerce Clause, much the way they have to put the 2nd Amendment on life support?
Again...you don't want a CC&R-based antenna restriction, don't sign up for one! DUH!
n0irw
10-15-2005, 04:04 AM
Quote[/b] (w4hwd @ Oct. 13 2005,23:41)]Again...you don't want a CC&R-based antenna restriction, don't sign up for one! DUH!
'nuf said!
Kevin O'Dell
N0IRW
k5ktd
10-15-2005, 04:59 AM
Quote[/b] (AA8X @ Oct. 14 2005,20:25)]It is time the ARRL is replaced with an organization that fully supports amateur radio and has an indisputable interest in hams. It seem they are now a marking organization selling books and items instead of resolving the very serious problem of antenna restrictions that confronts a good number amateurs. I agree, they missed a golden opportunity to bring this issue up.
Regardless the reason that the ARRL rep passed on the opportunity to address the Committee on the issue of CCRs and PRB-1, the result is the same; they are the perceived representative organization for Amateur Radio, they were before the Committee of venue, they failed to mention the topic.
I'm dubious about the federal government getting involved in private contracts, but failing to mention this important issue...I just don't know what to say.
ARRL has no obligation to represent Amateur Radio, per se, but one would think that they would at least attempt to represent their membership. How unfortunate for us all, members and others as well.
Lest I leave the impression that I have not given the numerous controversies regarding ARRL some serious consideration, I have made great effort to listen to those who defend ARRL as well as the organization's many and vocal detractors. As for the latter, I most often hear specific complaints or suggestions for improvement. #Regarding the former, the most frequent defense is, "They are the only organization representing ham radio. If you wish to be heard, join." Again, I submit that ARRL has no obligation to represent ham radio, though it seems to be the widely-held perception that they do. But when it comes to representing their membership, the overwhelming objective evidence is that they fail repetitively; case in point.
My decision to resign my membership, demand and receive a refund of my dues, was not made in haste. I think that "...an organization that fully supports amateur radio and has an indisputable interest in hams." has some vacuum-filling merit. It certainly makes more sense than, "They're the only ones speaking for us...join." I respectfully beg to differ.
Do all the Monday morning quarterback lawyers here know all of the correct language and procedures and venue that the ARRL guy had in front of him at that hearing? I doubt it, unless you were there. I suspect that was not the place to bring up "Oh by the way, we want congress to act on CC&R's." I thought the deal was about communications after Katrina.
Quote[/b] (AA8X @ Oct. 14 2005,20:25)]It is time the ARRL is replaced with an organization that fully supports amateur radio and has an indisputable interest in hams.
While this sounds good on paper (or on a monitor), the current census shows there are 675,274 unexpired licenses in the U.S. Ham radio is such a diverse hobby that it would be impossible to fairly represent the interests of all of us.
I think the problem with the ARRL is right there in the upper right hand corner of QST. They call themselves THE National Association for Amateur Radio rather than AN Association for Amateur Radio. If they wanted to call themselves the largest association of ham radio operators, that would be OK because it is true, but it is a bit arrogant to think that there are no other associations that represent our hobby.
Once, just once, I wish someone at the mighty ARRL would admit that they are in it for the money. They say their main reason for existence is the preservation of amateur radio, when it reality, their primary goal is the preservation of the ARRL.
NØIU
w1mct
10-15-2005, 09:47 AM
Here we go again! Those who do not in fact belong to the organization are again throwing stones at it. Instead of constant criticizm of the organization, why not help? As incoming President of a local Club, I am of the opinion that if each one of us were to assist the ARRL, (a recgnized organization) instead of demeaning it on a constant basis, their job would certainly be easier. This is supposed to be a fun hobby, not one in which members are constantly at odds with each other and the national organization of which a multitude belong. In dealing with a governmental entity, one must realize that changes do not occur with the frequency that one would wish for. Please do not continue to show divisiveness, but unity!
I can not speak for the other's who have posted here, but I am a member ofthe ARRL.
W3MIV
10-15-2005, 10:53 AM
This thread is supposed to be devoted to Ham Radio News. This is not news, it is an editorial bashing the League. Whichever idiot among the moderators approved this as news should rethink his/her commitment to providing a service, not just a platform for the ill-informed to bray and shuffle.
I am tired of League bashing in general; if you don't like what the League does, just sit back and let everyone else pay the freight and do the heavy lifting while you suck up the benefits. But please just shut up about it.
Kramer was called to testify before a Congressional committee on a particular topic. All the original poster's ideas about introducing complaints about what the Congress had not done or should do about CC&Rs would be an ideal response to a question, should such a question have arisen, but it was inappropriate to bring up that topic outside of the issue at hand.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
"Again...you don't want a CC&R-based antenna restriction, don't sign up for one! DUH!"
Cheap words. Try finding a home nowadays without restrictions on antennas. Good luck! Unless you are filthy rich and can fight it, can afford a country estate, you are prone to locate a home, sometimes, 40 plus miles from town.
Let's face it. Amateurs are discriminated against if they want to live anywhere around a city. Who wants a tower or a roof mounted antenna across the street? We understand the need and don't see the ugliness of an antenna system, but others don't.
Good luck finding a home without deed restrictions or HOA nazified rules and regs. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
wa4dou
10-15-2005, 11:37 AM
7 years ago, my xyl and I bought a home 12 miles from my work. My only stipulation was that there could be no CC&R's regarding antennas. We live on an acre and I have my 52 ft tower with tribander in the backyard.
Quote[/b] (N7YS @ Oct. 14 2005,01:26)]Do all the Monday morning quarterback lawyers here know all of the correct language and procedures and venue that the ARRL guy had in front of him at that hearing? I doubt it, unless you were there. I suspect that was not the place to bring up "Oh by the way, we want congress to act on CC&R's." #I thought the deal was about communications after Katrina.
I'm a member of the ARRL, and judge for yourself, based on my past comments, whether I've just criticized or have defended the ARRL on occasion. #More the latter, than the former, I think. #As a member, I deserve an answer from Dave Sumner. #If I get one personally, I'll share it. #Or, they can answer me here. #Either is OK.
No, I wasn't there. #But, since it was written testimony, it was written probably days before Kramer's appearance. #Time enough for them to remember about Israel's Bill. #Time enough for them to remember to say more than just what worked, what didn't work, and to have included what some of the roadblocks or speed bumps to our future ability to "do it again and again" are. #Perhaps having said something as simple as "although we should be able to respond (as effectively to future disasters) an ever-increasing number of us are faced with impediments to the construction of effective outdoor antennas" would have done the trick. #At least it would have gotten them thinking about the issue and perhaps, when they read the text of Israel's Bill, be more interested in considering it instead of once again, sitting on it and taking no action.
Yes, the deal was about communications after Katrina. #What worked and what didn't and why. #Somewhere in all of that, I think the Subcommittee's interest was to see what needs to be done to make things work better (or still work) the next time.
My reason for writing and posting this thread was that I've come to the conclusion that the omission wasn't an accidental oversight. #And, that's not acceptable. #Not for an organization that claims to represent the best interests of all of amateur radio, not just a privileged few. # #
73,
Lee
W6EM
k2lck
10-15-2005, 01:18 PM
The ARRL trys to represent an entire group of vastly differing views. Better than nothing... If ARRL, or any group, came out in favor of motherhood, 10% would fight it to the end.. Live with it... Ed
w4hwd
10-15-2005, 01:46 PM
Quote[/b] (W0LC @ Oct. 15 2005,06:17)]"Again...you don't want a CC&R-based antenna restriction, don't sign up for one! DUH!"
Cheap words. #Try finding a home nowadays without restrictions on antennas. #Good luck! #Unless you are filthy rich and can fight it, can afford a country estate, you are prone to locate a home, sometimes, 40 plus miles from town. #
Let's face it. #Amateurs are discriminated against if they want to live anywhere around a city. #Who wants a tower or a roof mounted antenna across the street? #We understand the need and don't see the ugliness of an antenna system, but others don't.
Good luck finding a home without deed restrictions or HOA nazified rules and regs. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
You do *not* have to be rich or anything else to live in a place without antenna restrictions. NONE of your examples apply to me, and I can have as many antennas as I want! If you live in such a place, well, sorry about your luck!
We live in a world today where everyone wants to have it their way and nobody wants to take responsibility for themselves. That is manifesting itself in this thread as far as private contracts go..."I want my antennas but Mr. Developer won't let me so I want Mommy Government to make him give me my antenna rights (like you have antenna rights - Oh Wait! - says so right there in the Constitution!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif). Who cares if I willfully signed my 'antenna rights' away when I bought the place...I WANT THEM BAAAACK (then turning purple whilst throwing temper tantrum)". Just like the entitlement juggernaut reared it's ugly head after Katrina (another story for another time), people have, through apathy or brain-washing, come to believe the Government is supposed to take care of them! WRONG!
BTW, I am not bashing the ARRL...I'm bashing people who willfully sign themselves into a corner than demand the gub'ment come get them out. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Quote[/b] (w4hwd @ Oct. 15 2005,06:46)]You do *not* have to be rich or anything else to live in a place without antenna restrictions. NONE of your examples apply to me, and I can have as many antennas as I want! If you live in such a place, well, sorry about your luck!
Yeah...bad luck like, say, living in a modern city. Try buying a house in Houston with no anti-antenna deed restrictions. You'll either:
1) Pay well into seven figures
2) Live in a slum
3) Live 40 miles out of town
The concept that people who get stuck with deed restrictions are doing so voluntarily only applies if there is a meaningful choice. In many cases, there is no meaningful choice. If there's no meaningful choice, then it's appropriate for government to remedy the situation.
Like many large lobby organizations, the ARRL has become self-perpetuating. The league will take the path of least resistance, or the path of maximum gain, is every case. #
Division is all that is holding things together. #If the heretics dropped their support of the league, it would fold in short order.
Yes, I am a heretic, and a league member.
Win, w0lz
KC2OOS
10-15-2005, 02:47 PM
Quote[/b] (k5zc @ Oct. 15 2005,07:19)][quote=w4hwd,Oct. 15 2005,06:46]The concept that people who get stuck with deed restrictions are doing so voluntarily only applies if there is a meaningful choice. In many cases, there is no meaningful choice. If there's no meaningful choice, then it's appropriate for government to remedy the situation.
I absolutely agree. A free market does not necessarily lead to better choices for consumers, and this is where there is an appropriate opportunity for government to regulate. Market forces should always be given the opportunity to work, but when they run counter to what the people decide is in their best interests, then government needs to act.
But I also agree that antennas are generally ugly beasts, and I'm not surprised that other people don't want to look at them--*I* don't want to look at them!
Big, ugly antennas are an unfortunate fact of Amateur Radio. While they are necessary for good HF communications, it is also necessary for some restrictions to be placed on them to prevent the construction of inappropriate sturctures for their environments.
I choose to live in a small, old suburb (150 years or so old). There are no real restrictions on antennas in the local codes, other than some restrictions about satellite dishes (mostly to prevent proliferation of the larger dishes), but residential lots are generally restricted to structures of 35 feet in height, or four feet above the existing roofline, unless I apply for a variance.
My lot is 50' x 170'. If I were to erect a 35 foot tower, that tower could conceivably be a danger to not only my neighbors, but myself. An even a 35 foot tower isn't al that big in terms of antennas. Not to mention the fact that it would stick out like a sore thumb in the neighborhood, lowering property values for blocks around.
Ultimately, the best thing would be for people not to agree to restrictions, or to move when subject to them. That said, there needs to be a balance between public need, freedom of contract, property rights, and individual liberty. It's a very grey area.
N0FPE
10-15-2005, 03:31 PM
I am all for a second or third national organization to represent the radio amateur. Now just point me to them. Are the folks that complain abt the ARRL willing to start one? Unless you are willing to put out the effort to do the needed work to set up something, put up or shut up. The ARRL is not perfect or even close, but it is as of right now the only game in town. And of course as always if you are not a member you have no weight in the way things are decided and no reason to whine if you dont get your way.
And keeping with the thread. I bought a house in a NICE area of Chandler, Arizona that had NO antenna restrictions. The bull that they cant be found just means that most folks are too lazy to look or ham radio is not all that important to them as living in the correct neighborhood, with the right look, the right car, and the 2.5 kids and a HOA to tell them how to do everything...baaa baaa baaa I see herds of sheep.....
w4hwd
10-15-2005, 04:04 PM
Quote[/b] (k5zc @ Oct. 15 2005,09:19)]Yeah...bad luck like, say, living in a modern city. Try buying a house in Houston with no anti-antenna deed restrictions. You'll either:
1) Pay well into seven figures
2) Live in a slum
3) Live 40 miles out of town
The concept that people who get stuck with deed restrictions are doing so voluntarily only applies if there is a meaningful choice. In many cases, there is no meaningful choice. If there's no meaningful choice, then it's appropriate for government to remedy the situation.
That's correct. In that instance, you use PRB-1 to finance a court battle against a local government body. I never said you couldn't do that, and I never said that PRB-1 couldn't be effectively used to overturn such restrictions.
My argument, in case you didn't catch it, was directed solely and exclusively at those who sign CC&Rs willingly then complain after the fact that they can't have antennas!
Quote[/b] (k5zc @ Oct. 15 2005,07:19)]Quote[/b] (w4hwd @ Oct. 15 2005,06:46)]You do *not* have to be rich or anything else to live in a place without antenna restrictions. NONE of your examples apply to me, and I can have as many antennas as I want! If you live in such a place, well, sorry about your luck!
Yeah...bad luck like, say, living in a modern city. Try buying a house in Houston with no anti-antenna deed restrictions. You'll either:
1) Pay well into seven figures
2) Live in a slum
3) Live 40 miles out of town
The concept that people who get stuck with deed restrictions are doing so voluntarily only applies if there is a meaningful choice. In many cases, there is no meaningful choice. If there's no meaningful choice, then it's appropriate for government to remedy the situation.
I am so glad I do not have all of these worries. I live in a rural town. I am within 10 miles of 3 large towns and 40 miles from Dallas. I thouroughly enjoy watching the look on the faces of the neighbors across the street when I whip out the climbing harness and the gin pole.
I have never and will never sign my rights away JUST to live in a "prestigious" or "convenient" subdivision. Status is not important to me. My status is shown in my backyard with vertical steel.
I used to be in the service industry and I was amazed at the plastic expressions these people have knowing they live in a place where you have to have approval form an orginazition to PLANT A TREE!!!!
None for me, thanks
Quote[/b] (w4hwd @ Oct. 15 2005,09:04)]Quote[/b] (k5zc @ Oct. 15 2005,09:19)]Yeah...bad luck like, say, living in a modern city. Try buying a house in Houston with no anti-antenna deed restrictions. You'll either:
1) Pay well into seven figures
2) Live in a slum
3) Live 40 miles out of town
The concept that people who get stuck with deed restrictions are doing so voluntarily only applies if there is a meaningful choice. In many cases, there is no meaningful choice. If there's no meaningful choice, then it's appropriate for government to remedy the situation.
That's correct. In that instance, you use PRB-1 to finance a court battle against a local government body. I never said you couldn't do that, and I never said that PRB-1 couldn't be effectively used to overturn such restrictions.
My argument, in case you didn't catch it, was directed solely and exclusively at those who sign CC&Rs willingly then complain after the fact that they can't have antennas!
I am living on 4.5 unrestricted acres in the country north of Pensacola. I am selling this place to move to a restricted sub division in the Birmingham area. In the time I have been an Amateur, I have used ONE Alpha-Delta DXCC wire antenna and one comet 2m/70cm antenna on a 20' pole.
My only requirement (my wife can have what she wants) is that there be trees and a privacy fence in the new backyard (some place to put up stealth antennas). The point is that I realized that I was never going to have a 100' tower with a yagi the size of a city block. And with all the stealth options, the restrictions won't be a big deal. We always dream about what we don't have, and after having the property, money, and ability to have a monster antenna system here in Florida, I enjoyed my wire antenna so much it was never worth the effort.
To Albert, MIV: Chill dude! Your bombastic defense of the ARRL ziabatsu is funny. Your procrustean pals hold you in high esteem, no doubt. LOL!
is it just me or am i missing the point ?
73
howard
KG4RUL
10-15-2005, 08:21 PM
Quote[/b] (wa4dou @ Oct. 15 2005,00:37)]7 years ago, my xyl and I bought a home 12 miles from my work. My only stipulation was that there could be no CC&R's regarding antennas. We live on an acre and I have my 52 ft tower with tribander in the backyard.
Good grief!
You live in the middle of nowhere! OF course you can find property with NO restrictions!
Try doing the same within the city limit of, let's say, Charleston, SC?
Dennis http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
wp3bm
10-15-2005, 08:44 PM
Quote[/b] (W0LC @ Oct. 15 2005,04:17)]Good luck finding a home without deed restrictions or HOA nazified rules and regs. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
What a difference! In P.R., having a 4 element 10M yagi in your rooftop is considered by many a symbol of "status" (LOL).
Take care,
Gabriel
Quote[/b] (m3wem @ Oct. 14 2005,15:29)]is it just me or am i missing the point ?
73
howard
Well, Howard, since you apparently don't reside in the US, maybe its you. :-)
Guess I'm the only one who's willing to suggest to the ARRL to *revise* and *resubmit* their testimony. #Ah, but that's hard to do when you appear under oath and stand there in front of them, etc., etc. #The Hearing's over with.
If nobody's willing to tell our association to get off its *ss and instead of placating our lawmakers with words of how the League *loves* the grant money, erase that and insert a few words of how our antenna capabilities will diminish over time, well, its a lost cause.
That's the point. #So, instead of writing Congressional Representatives about Israel's Bill, write the ARRL and tell them to tell the Energy and Commerce I and T Subcommittee that their testimony needs a little "fine tuning." #Not that they didn't tell the truth in what they handed to them on September 29. #Just not the whole truth and nothing but the truth.......
73,
Lee
W6EM
I agree with the ones saying if you don't want antenna restrictions, don't move into a place where they exist. Its all very simple. I live on 120 wooded acres. People around here never even heard of CCR's.
And W6EM, I think you are too hard on ARRL. This was an oportunity to show the world amateur radio is a force to be reckoned with and it is an important link in the homeland security circle.
If the ARRL brought a laundry lists of complaints to this meeting, I don't think it would have gone over too well. We would have looked like a bunch of winers and complainers. Give them a break. One day at a time, we'll get there.
K2WH
The ARRL does not represent its members. Not well, at any rate. I belong only to keep an eye on them. The management has an agenda that is not all that much in the members' interests.
If an new organization were to be formed, I'll sign up.
Quote[/b] (KD5PSH @ Oct. 15 2005,10:05)]The ARRL does not represent its members. Not well, at any rate. I belong only to keep an eye on them. The management has an agenda that is not all that much in the members' interests.
If an new organization were to be formed, I'll sign up.
Ditto
n2obm
10-15-2005, 11:07 PM
Hello All,
It was explained to me that most developers add CC&Rs to a deed as protection when selling new construction.
The example given:
A guy who made millions in PORN buys a new house in the sub-division.
Before all of the houses are sold, nude figurines 'sprout' in his front yard.
Care to guess on how the other houses sell?
OK, I see 'one side of the coin'. OTHER laws on the books could address this!!!! 'Art' could be viewed and enjoyed *in the back yard*, maybe behind a fence.
(This is an example....with example recourse.)
IMHO, reasonable accommodation for antennae is not too much to ask (sure, I'll put it in the back yard!). My copy of the CC&Rs were handed to me after I closed on my house....yep, no antennae, 'cept SAT TV, at the rear of the house...yes I have radio antennae, at the rear of the house.
I am asking that my rights, and future options, be considered before over-zealous *permanent* restrictions are attached to a deed. We're not talking about mineral or water rights.
And DON'T preach to me about contracts.....I have one with the C&C and the American people.....
BTW,
I am not asking the government for a handout.
I have dodged bullets in Panama and Iraq. I mentor young soldiers everyday, I advise and train my comrades on communication skills......I earn my check. I am good at what I do...I like what I do....soooo much I want to do it at home. Do you have a problem with that?
73
tb
P.S. Lee, you vex me....you have CC&Rs, don't you?
Harry, I'll trade you houses.....you would not do that would you....heck of a commute to Fort Bragg....yes, I want them BAAACK....BTW, do you think CBers had anything to do with the amount of CC&Rs? 'Working 26.895MHz AM - feel free to drop in!'....Bio last modified: 2005-10-09 Add/Update biography for W4HWD
KA9WBX
10-16-2005, 12:09 AM
Quote[/b] (AA8X @ Oct. 14 2005,20:25)]It is time the ARRL is replaced with an organization that fully supports amateur radio and has an indisputable interest in hams.
Then why don't You start such an organization.
For years I have heard many hams say this, and still no one has done it. #!?
And no I am not a member of the ARRL #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
73 Terry
"... I wish someone at the mighty ARRL would admit that they are in it for the money."
Of all the ARRL bashing I've seen over the years this one is perhaps the most hilarious. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
k4lem
10-16-2005, 12:29 AM
I am curious why an individual who wants a 50 or 100 foot tower plus stacked mono banders would buy into an area where that sort of thing would be restricted. It would seem if you really wanted this elaborate a set up you would buy in the country and check with the town office concerning any such permits needed or restrictions.
Not everyone wants a 100 foot lightning rod near their home.
So the whole issue it seems to me is one of ask first, do the research and if the conditions are not favoriable move out further. It's not very likely all parcels of land will take on tower restrictions anytime soon, if ever. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
I believe that the premise behind PRB-1 was that the federal government has an interest in promoting amateur radio and fostering its growth and sustainability. The Constitution states that laws which are not reserved to the federal government then belong to the states. Amateur radio is licensed by the federal government, not the states, so the Constitution applies where states (or other local governments) have unreasonably restricted amateur radio through local ordinances.
The leap to the present bill on CC&R's has been stated, I believe, thus: Even though a homeowner's association has developed a set of restrictions which must be agreed to as a condition of sale, it was not within their rights to make such a requirement (restriction of amateur radio antennas) in the first place. They are then acting as a local government would, but they also do not have the right to usurp power over an area that has been reserved to the federal government (the legitimate promotion of amateur radio).
73,
Pete W3WC
I'll tell you why an otherwise respectable ham would knowingly buy into a development with CCR's.
<marquee><FONT FACE="arial bold" size="+2" color=blue>WOMEN</marquee>
When buying houses, men just wimp out. #The wife or finance loves the house and envisions the color of drapes and house, landscaping and give not one iota of respect for what the man may want in the house or what his expectations or wishes are.
Men need to get more backbone and the tell the b___ch the house is unacceptable and you want one on a hill with about 2-4 acres, fully wooded and no damn CCR's.
I'll bet if you took a poll, a very high percentage of hams living in CCR restricted houses, bought the house because its what the girfriend/wife/finance wanted. #Then again, they probably wouldn't tell you the truth because they would be ashamed. Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong.
K2WH
Quote[/b] (KD5PSH @ Oct. 15 2005,11:05)]The ARRL does not represent its members. Not well, at any rate. I belong only to keep an eye on them. The management has an agenda that is not all that much in the members' interests.
If an new organization were to be formed, I'll sign up.
There is another organization the AARA. #Heres the link:
http://www.k1man.com/web16/Page_1x.html
Go and join. #The ARRL doesn't need you.
K2WH
KG4RUL
10-16-2005, 01:14 AM
Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Oct. 15 2005,11:04)]I agree with the ones saying if you don't want antenna restrictions, don't move into a place where they exist. Its all very simple. I live on 120 wooded acres. People around here never even heard of CCR's.
And W6EM, I think you are too hard on ARRL. This was an oportunity to show the world amateur radio is a force to be reckoned with and it is an important link in the homeland security circle.
If the ARRL brought a laundry lists of complaints to this meeting, I don't think it would have gone over too well. We would have looked like a bunch of winers and complainers. Give them a break. One day at a time, we'll get there.
K2WH
Once again, someone who lives in the middle of nowhere! OF course you can find property with NO restrictions!
Try doing the same within the city limit of, let's say, Charleston, SC?
Dennis http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
wa4dou
10-16-2005, 01:14 AM
Dennis, I live just off I95 in Nash County,NC, near Rocky Mount. We have lots of subdivisions with "no antenna" CCR's. I chose not to live in them. My wife and I have an understanding, the house is her domain, the yard is mine, and the small bedroom(my hamshack).
KB5DPE
10-16-2005, 01:15 AM
I proudly belong to the ARRL. I proudly support the ARRL. Is the ARRL perfect? What human endeavor(sp) is? I don't always agree with ARRL policies, but I'm mighty glad they're there.
73 Tom KB5DPE
KG4RUL
10-16-2005, 01:36 AM
Quote[/b] (wa4dou @ Oct. 15 2005,14:14)]Dennis, I live just off I95 in Nash County,NC, near Rocky Mount. We have lots of subdivisions with "no antenna" CCR's. I chose not to live in them. My wife and I have an understanding, the house is her domain, the yard is mine, and the small bedroom(my hamshack).
Well I've got to say, that is the absolute opposite of what we deal with around Charleston, SC. We don't have the option to just buy where there are no CC&Rs.
Virtually all developments have them and, when I have had the chance to look at them, they seem to be copied from subdivision to subdivision.
I even read one that had specific references to the developers PREVIOUS subdivision in it! They just do these things as boilerplate documents! There is no thought, rhyme or reason to them.
Dennis http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
n2obm
10-16-2005, 01:40 AM
Quote[/b] (w1it @ Oct. 14 2005,18:29)]I am curious why an individual who wants a 50 or 100 foot tower plus stacked mono banders would buy into an area where that sort of thing would be restricted. It would seem if you really wanted this elaborate a set up you would buy in the country and check with the town office concerning any such permits needed or restrictions.
Not everyone wants a 100 foot lightning rod near their home.
So the whole issue it seems to me is one of ask first, do the research and if the conditions are not favoriable move out further. It's not very likely all parcels of land will take on tower restrictions anytime soon, if ever. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
I still don't want my 'future rights' infringed upon. CC&Rs are permanent....in most States 'as long as the domicile contained therein is in existance'. And the lawyer is the one that did not disclose the CC&Rs at my close...my agent stated there were no CC&Rs. Who do I sue?
Who has the right to permanently strike your interests/rights away? A developer? A future neighbor?
The HOA? What will they give up?
with Liberty and Justice for ALL.........
n2obm
10-16-2005, 01:42 AM
Quote[/b] (KG4RUL @ Oct. 14 2005,19:36)]Virtually all developments have them and, when I have had the chance to look at them, they seem to be copied from subdivision to subdivision. #
I even read one that had specific references to the developers PREVIOUS subdivision in it! #They just do these things as boilerplate documents! #There is no thought, rhyme or reason to them.
Dennis #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Dennis,
Same here in Fayetteville, NC. Lazy lawyers with a copy machine.
Quote[/b] (KG4RUL @ Oct. 15 2005,14:14)]Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Oct. 15 2005,11:04)]I agree with the ones saying if you don't want antenna restrictions, don't move into a place where they exist. #Its all very simple. #I live on 120 wooded acres. #People around here never even heard of CCR's.
And W6EM, I think you are too hard on ARRL. #This was an oportunity to show the world amateur radio is a force to be reckoned with and it is an important link in the homeland security circle.
If the ARRL brought a laundry lists of complaints to this meeting, I don't think it would have gone over too well. #We would have looked like a bunch of winers and complainers. #Give them a break. #One day at a time, we'll get there.
K2WH
Once again, someone who lives in the middle of nowhere! #OF course you can find property with NO restrictions!
Try doing the same within the city limit of, let's say, Charleston, SC?
Dennis #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
People do not accidentally go into a house with CCR's. #They go willingly.
BTW, I do not live in the middle of nowhere, I am 40 miles west of NYC and only 5 minutes from the center of town. #As a matter of fact, there are no CCR's anywhere in town and it is the largest town in New Jersey. #80 square miles.
Homes closer to NYC do not have CCR's either. #The only CCR restricted housing is the cookied cutter new developements that the wifey just loves.
I'm curious. #For the ones under the CCR cloud, was there no land available out there with a private home on it you could have bought? #I cannot believe you just had to be in the new development. #You had to have New? And whats with all the postings coming out of NC and SC? There some kind of problem down there?
K2WH
n2obm
10-16-2005, 01:59 AM
Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Oct. 14 2005,19:44)]People do not accidentally go into a house with CCR's. #They go willingly.
I'm curious. #For the ones under the CCR cloud, was there no land available out there with a private home on it you could have bought? #I cannot believe you just had to be in the new development. #You had to have New? #And whats with all the postings coming out of NC and SC? #There some kind of problem down there?
K2WH
K2WH.....bull....
k9ekg
10-16-2005, 03:06 AM
Quote[/b] (W0LC @ Oct. 15 2005,04:17)]"Again...you don't want a CC&R-based antenna restriction, don't sign up for one! DUH!"
Cheap words. Try finding a home nowadays without restrictions on antennas. Good luck! Unless you are filthy rich and can fight it, can afford a country estate, you are prone to locate a home, sometimes, 40 plus miles from town.
Let's face it. Amateurs are discriminated against if they want to live anywhere around a city. Who wants a tower or a roof mounted antenna across the street? We understand the need and don't see the ugliness of an antenna system, but others don't.
Good luck finding a home without deed restrictions or HOA nazified rules and regs. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
I did and had no problems. You chose where you live when you pay a mortgage. There are places, you need to look.
I love my tower...
KA4KOE
10-16-2005, 03:13 AM
We're looking at new houses. The wife has those ideas. I've already said---
If I can't put up a tower there now or later, or there are no trees, then I'm not interested.
K2MLS
10-16-2005, 06:20 AM
After reading the original post several times and adding a reply. #I had a second thought, so I went back and read the article at the ARRL's home page. #After reading it and then re-reading the original post, I'm with Howard, M3WEM who said, "What's the point?"
I think the following represents the Amateur Radio Service very well: #"Immediately at the onset of Hurricane Katrina, an all-volunteer "army" of approximately 1,000 FCC-licensed Amateur Radio operators provided continuous high-frequency (HF), VHF and UHF communications for State, local and Federal emergency workers in and around the affected area in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama."
The thesis of Mr.Kramer's talk/report was: #"Public Safety Communications from 9/11 to Katrina: Critical Public Policy Lessons" # Didn't he concisely, but succinctly support his thesis?
Where the issue of CCR's must come in is when there is an after action review/report or lessons learned assessment. #Were there any documented problems that CCR's impaired the rescue or mitigation phases of this disaster? #If so, The ARRL and that legislative body needs to know about them. #
I can't honestly say the thesis of "ARRL Testifies B4 Congress, Stubs Toe" was supported very well and obviously Howard made that observation too. #Perhaps the point should have been something like "ARRL missed opportunity to address Amateur Radio Services' concern about CCRs."
ARRL did an outstanding job of recognizing the value and worth of the men and women of the Amateur Radio Service and showed they are a value added to our society.
One thing for sure W6EM you got a lot of people to read your post.
WB2RJR
10-16-2005, 08:17 AM
W6EM,
CC&R's are not a big concern with the trailer trash that ARRL is targeting as new members to move amateur radio into the 21st century.
73, Marty WB2RJR
Quote[/b] (WB2RJR @ Oct. 15 2005,21:17)]W6EM,
CC&R's are not a big concern with the trailer trash that ARRL is targeting as new members to move amateur radio into the 21st century.
73, Marty WB2RJR
Ohhh, now we have class envy! Trailer trash hams vs the amateur elite. I would like to hear a description of a trailer trash ham vs an elite class ham.
K2WH
Quote[/b] (K2MLS @ Oct. 15 2005,02:20)]The thesis of Mr.Kramer's talk/report was: #"Public Safety Communications from 9/11 to Katrina: Critical Public Policy Lessons" # Didn't he concisely, but succinctly support his thesis?
Where the issue of CCR's must come in is when there is an after action review/report or lessons learned assessment. #Were there any documented problems that CCR's impaired the rescue or mitigation phases of this disaster? #If so, The ARRL and that legislative body needs to know about them. #
Critical Public Policy Lessons? #Nope, I dont' think so. #While he criticized the popular thesis of interoperability amongst public safety agencies, and its all-but-too-obvious failure in the aftermath of Katrina, he obesely patted amateur radio on the back. #Saying things like "and we will do it over and over. #Again and again."
Such a repeated self-flagulation can only serve to inform the Congress that everything is fine with amateur radio. #Didn't they hear that first hand from an executive from the National Association for Amateur Radio, while under oath?
So, when Fred Upton, the Subcommittee Chair, gets around to reading a Bill entitled the Amateur Radio Emergency Communications Consistency Act, he's likely to come to the conclusion that its just a fluke. #They don't need this. #If they did, they would have at least mentioned something about what it was they needed while they stood before us talking about emergency activities.
Things worked well for amateur radio in Katrina's aftermath since there are, at least for now anyway, a sufficient number of us gray, thinning-haired types that got our licenses when CC&Rs weren't around. #And, a sufficient number of us still living in older homes that permit outside antennas. #Or, lucky enough to find a country farm.
As we grow older, as a California friend did, and take our antennas down and sell our gear before nature's inevitable course takes its toll, fewer and fewer young people will have the opportunities we did. #So, over time, fewer folks in the throws of MARS and SHARES. #And on HF in general. #
What does a parent say to a son or daughter who discovers amateur radio? #They can't have any outside antennas, #so forget it? #After all, being confined to an HT isn't really all that different than what FRS or GMRS offers.
And, no, loading flagpoles and vent extensions aren't the answer for effective antennas either. #Some CC&Rs actually have words to prohibit the use of flagpoles for anything but flying a flag. #So, they are "on" to those of us who try to get by that way.
It is fair to say that no, you are right, there weren't any documented examples of CC&Rs impairing rescues in the aftermath of Katrina. #But, it is an almost indisputable fact that, as time rolls on, there probably will be calls for help that can't be heard. #Perhaps, even, no means to even call for help.
Since most here don't seem to get the major point I was trying to make, I'll say it directly: I believe that the ARRL purposefully omitted any words in their testimony about the future ability of the amateur radio service being impaired in our response to emergencies by an insufficient number of effective outdoor antennas. #(Or, even impairment by our old friend BPL, for that matter.) #I further am led to believe, that, the omission was based on, perhaps, a conspiracy. #A conspiracy to, while, on one hand appearing to be solidly against CC&Rs, keep them in place to serve as a means to limit HF availability to a privileged few. #Why?
Look back in time to when the DX-clique-sponsored Incentive Licensing fiasco of the '60s took away HF spectrum from general class licensees. #Ah, so that DXing and multi-band DXCC would be like shooting ducks in a bath tub. #So now, with the virtually-accomplished elimination of CW, the flood gates will soon be opened and again, HF DX segments will be cluttered unless something prevents all of these new "no-code" licensees from getting on HF. #The perfect solution: #CC&Rs.
Of course, just my opinion.
73,
Lee
W6EM
W6EM:
"I further am led to believe, that, the omission was based on, perhaps, a conspiracy. #A conspiracy to, while, on one hand appearing to be solidly against CC&Rs, keep them in place to serve as a means to limit HF availability to a privileged few. #Why?"
Lee. #Your consipiracy theory, if true, then the guys up in Newington, must be some of the smartest and at the same time, some of the most devious people on earth. #So is the ARRL crazy like a fox or a bunch of total idiots. #Which is it? #They can't be both. #
K2WH
Lee, you had better watch that Kool-Aid, it makes you see conspiracies where they don't exist along with all the other "suff" you seem to enjoy spouting. Give it a break, go read the paper. CC&Rs don't prohibit that.
73,
Bill
KB1KIX
10-16-2005, 05:24 PM
This original post is ladened with predetermined bias from the get go.
Bottom line - do you know what Kramer's experience is before coming to the league? Do you think he just might have enough knowledge to know what to do in a situation like this?
He has... I repeat.. . has to stay somewhat on point with a topic at hand. If he goes astray too far - then our elected officials will see the rhetoric and ignore most if not all of his statement - it happens all the time.
In his previous career in the legal profession, he more than has enough experience to do what needed to be done.
Granted, I'm from the local club in Newington, CT. I know Harold personally - as well as a great deal of the members at league HQ.
Do I agree with everything that they do? Absolutely not. Especially that last bout with the bandwith proposals.
However, do I think they are doing as good a job that can be done with the current political climate - absolutely!
Maybe it's me, but to actually hear our President mention amateur radio and it's effectiveness in a weekend address was priceless enough.
Allen Pitts - W1AGP and his crew have done a great job at getting us positive media publicity - which is his job at the ARRL. Which I think is firm ground for public recognition. The more people know who we are, and the services we provide, the more ammunition we have when we debate specific issues on capitol hill.
I think one of the first few posts on this topic said it best.
W5JON said:
"Is the ARRL always right, no.
Is the ARRL always wrong, no.
Would Amateur Radio be better without the ARRL, no."
For that, I agree.
Flame away.
Jonathan
Quote[/b] (k8te @ Oct. 15 2005,12:15)]Lee, you had better watch that Kool-Aid, it makes you see conspiracies where they don't exist along with all the other "suff" you seem to enjoy spouting. #Give it a break, go read the paper. #CC&Rs don't prohibit that.
73,
Bill
OK. #Perhaps, since many accuse the League of swinging and swaying to the influence of money, I should have tossed that in. #I seem to recall hearing that the DX lobby was by far the greatest League-contributing segment of membership. #Money talks.
I surely could be wrong, though. #If I am, and the omission was purely the result of incompetence, then its time for a change at the top.
I don't have a beef with the ARRL. #I think they do a great job elsewhere. #And, with their publications, in general. #And, the work done by the ARRL Lab. #I've said so in the past.
If the omission in testimony was not "on purpose", then why hasn't Jim Hainey, our President, paid the Chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee a visit? #Texan-to-Texan style. #Much easier than being invited to testify. Jim's only a few miles from Joe Barton's District (that encompasses Arlington and Fort Worth). #Jim might even be his constituent. #I've even sent Jim a couple of emails and suggested that he and a few local hams that are Barton's constituents pay Joe a visit at his local office to discuss issues of interest to amateur radio. #To date, he hasn't done that. #I think, yes, it has been, almost 2 years ago that I suggested that. #Since every photo op of Jim's with a Congressman is widely publicized, it surely hasn't happened. #We'd have all seen and heard about it, if it had.
Guess I'll just have to sit back and try another flavor of Kool-Aid... #:-)
Lee
Quote[/b] (KB1KIX @ Oct. 15 2005,13:24)]This original post is ladened with predetermined bias from the get go.
Bottom line - do you know what Kramer's experience is before coming to the league? #Do you think he just might have enough knowledge to know what to do in a situation like this?
He has... I repeat.. . has to stay somewhat on point with a topic at hand. #If he goes astray too far - then our elected officials will see the rhetoric and ignore most if not all of his statement - it happens all the time.
In his previous career in the legal profession, he more than has enough experience to do what needed to be done.
Jonathan: #Pre-determined bias? #Only to the extent that I watch and observe and make conclusions based on actions, or the lack thereof.
No, I don't know Kramer's experience. #He's obviously new to the League, as their stationery still lists Mark WiLson, K1RO, as COO. (Manassas BPL letter to the Commission by Chris Imlay, October 13).
His pre-writen, prepared testimony was, in large-part, the same as Hainey's that was previously handed to the House Government Reform Committee earlier. #Big difference, though. #The GRC isn't and wasn't the Committee that killed the PRB-1 Bill on its two prior submissions. #In front of them, perhaps, that same spiel was OK.
Part of any meaningful "lessons learned" discussion or hearing by a body empowered with the ability to fix things that might need fixing is what may be pitfalls should something similar occur in the future. #What worked now that might not in the future.
Just because he's an attorney doesn't necessarily give him the authority to change what those in Newington wrote for him to say. #Let's not forget. #He wasn't responding to questions, he read aloud and handed in a pre-written expose'. #At least as far as we have been told. #And, the House Energy and Commerce site seems to confirm that.
Lee
"if the omission was purely the result of incompetence, then its time for a change at the top."
Lee. #Why do you believe #"omission" = "incompetence"? #Why does it have to be some sinister reason behind it?
I do not believe there was omission or incompetence involved here at all. #It was simply not on the agenda and at the time the subject matter was about hams providing emergency communications and how well we do it. #There was no "and by the way" what about CCR's and BPL.
If CCR's was an omission, then so was BPL, so was the 40 meter broadcast problem, so was CW being dropped and all the other things that are pissing hams off. #Where does one stop before one starts to look like a blithering idiot.
One thing at a time.
K2WH
n4gsa
10-16-2005, 07:14 PM
As some of my fellow hams have posted, they are proud members of the ARRL. I decided not to renew my membership. After many years, I decided that the ARRL leadership is only out for what they want, not what we need. Hold on, you offered your opinion, now it's my turn please.
The ARRL Leadership reminds me of politicians, the only time you hear from them in when they want something from you. #
It's my belief that the when any member of the ham community goes before any member of the congress they should put ALL the cards on the table, not just read from a written script by someone else.
If some of your are not aware, we hams who reside in HOA controlled ares are in the thousands. Take a good look around our "FREE" country. These HOA controlled areas are popping up every time a new housing plan is built in every state.
IF the ARRL would like to see the membership grow, all they have to do is push the CC&R bill throught the congress with a positive end. They, the ARRL let the first bill fall to it's end when they started pushing the BPL problem into the congress. Deals are made every day in the congress. What kind of deal was made this time?
Thank you for allowing me to exercise my opinion. #I hope the ARRL reads these posts, they will know how all of us feel. And yes, I have written my elected federal officials AGAIN regarding the CC&R bill and why they need to take it serious.
"God Bless America"
N3BRS:
Deals are made every day in the congress. What kind of deal was made this time?
Hey, smart move not re-joining ARRL. #That helps alot when dealing with Congress.
Yes, deals are made every day in congress with lots of money changing hands. #ARRL doesn't and can't work that way. #Especially since you short changed them by not joining. #Thats OK though, I sent another check to them to cover your shortfall. #Do your part and re-join the group, I can't keep covering for all you leaches that benefit from the actions of ARRL. Do your part and join ARRL.
K2WH
To all you ARRL bashers, answer these question and think about your answers.
Will the amateur community be better off without the ARRL?
1) Yes
2) No
3) I don't know
Would the ARRL be better prepared (financially) to deal with congress if all hams were dues paying members.
1) Yes
2) No
3) I don't know
Your answer to #1 must be "No", if you are really honest.
Your answer to #2 must be "Yes" if you are really honest.
So, what do you think you should you do?
<Marquee>Join the ARRL Today</Marquee></marquee>
Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Oct. 15 2005,15:11)]"if the omission was purely the result of incompetence, then its time for a change at the top."
Lee. #Why do you believe #"omission" = "incompetence"? #Why does it have to be some sinister reason behind it?
I do not believe there was omission or incompetence involved here at all. #It was simply not on the agenda and at the time the subject matter was about hams providing emergency communications and how well we do it. #There was no "and by the way" what about CCR's and BPL.
If CCR's was an omission, then so was BPL, so was the 40 meter broadcast problem, so was CW being dropped and all the other things that are pissing hams off. #Where does one stop before one starts to look like a blithering idiot.
One thing at a time.
K2WH
WH: #Let's replay the significance of an invitation to testify before the very Subcommittee whose responsibility is the Telecommunications Act.
Has the League been invited to testify in front of them before? #If so, tell me when.
Was it for the Spectrum Protection Act? #Was it for Israel's prior two submissions? #Nope.
Can the ARRL just pick up the phone and call Fred Upton or Joe Barton and ask, "can we come down and appear before your Committee or Subcommittee so you will consider our Bills? #Nope. #It doesn't work that way.
And, they know that. #If Sumner and Hainey don't, Chris Imlay certainly does.
So, they miss the extremely rare opportunity to mention, in closing their written submission, one or two items that in virtually everyone's mind are the greatest threats to future of amateur radio. #And, threats that may keep amateur radio from being there over and over. And, you bring up foreign broadcast on 40M and bandwidth issues. #Of what relevance are those, without an effective antenna? #Or, without being able to hear anything but S9+40 digital hash (per Imlay's October 13 letter)?
So, you don't think it was either incompetence or a conspiracy. #That's your choice. #Irrespective of what the motivation or demotivation was, as I said and strongly believe, they stubbed their toe on our behalf, big time. #Omission due to incompetence isn't a conspiracy. #Its simply being stupid. #Very stupid. #Since I'm a member of ARRL, I have a right to express my displeasure. #And, I've done so over a week ago. #I doubt that I'll hear from Sumner. #I don't really care, frankly.
Perhaps those hams who are members of Congress or are staff officials can find a way to add language to legislation to address the preservation of amateur radio.
But, as happened to Florida legislation on CC&R pre-emption a couple of years back, the ARRL might actually oppose it. #Another nice thought. #I'd better get some more Kool-Aid. #Anyhow, the reasonable antennas #were wire antennas, as I recall. #Probably too specific for lovers of Yagi-Udas.
#
73,
Lee
W6EM
BTW, the subject matter of the hearing was Public Safety Communications from 9/11 to Katrina: Critical Public Policy Lessons, not ham radio emergency communications and how well we do/did it. Or, how much the League liked the federal money :-)
W5IQJ
10-16-2005, 08:23 PM
Hey K2WH! #Better get your checkbook out again. #I'm not renewing my ARRL membership either after it expires at the end of this year.
Bill Sievers
W5IQJ
"Proud not to be renewing my ARRL membership"
k4kyv
10-16-2005, 08:24 PM
Quote[/b] (w6em @ Oct. 16 2005,06:25)]And, no, loading flagpoles and vent extensions aren't the answer for effective antennas either. Some CC&Rs actually have words to prohibit the use of flagpoles for anything but flying a flag. So, they are "on" to those of us who try to get by that way.
So how are they to know that you have buried radials in the ground and that you are feeding rf to the metal mast, if you don't publicly announce it?
AE4TM
10-16-2005, 08:33 PM
Lee,
I firmly believe that the ARRL has our best interests in mind and I fully support their efforts. When was the last time you worked CW or any HF mode?
Dr "Robot" (alias Ed AE4TM)
Quote[/b] (W5IQJ @ Oct. 16 2005,09:23)]Hey K2WH! #Better get your checkbook out again. #I'm not renewing my ARRL membership either after it expires at the end of this year.
Bill Sievers
W5IQJ
"Proud not to be renewing my ARRL membership"
I simply do not understand this way of thinking. #I can only surmise, individuals who proudly announce they are not joining or re-joining ARRL must not take ham radio seriously or maybe they are Ralph Kramden types. #The episode where he refuses to pay the rent and winds up on the street.
The only possible outcome, if taken by enough hams is to bankrupt the ARRL and then we have #ZERO representation anywhere. #How is leaving the ARRL a good thing for all? #
So, tell me Bill, why it is a good thing to dump the ARRL? What happened to you that you proudly announce this on this site and in your bio?
Maybe its me.
K2WH
n8ary
10-16-2005, 10:10 PM
Well,
On the CCR's, you're right- Don't move into a subdivision. There are restrictions on appearance of homes there. You also can't work on cars in the driveway and most of the time can't erect TV antennas.
I can't see why we need the ARRL to help us there. I do agree that, if you aren't in a subdivision or condo, you should be able to erect whatever you want as long as it isn't dangerous or a total eyesore.
I think the ARRL is a great asset to Amateur Radio.
The attitude that "THEY" owe us everything is not right. People tend to think that way about any organization, whether it be government, ARRL, police, management at work, etc.
K7BLR
10-16-2005, 10:20 PM
This is my first reply to any remarks made here, however I am one of those affected by being in a restricted community ( I moved here before I became a ham ).
I guess I don't understand comments such as "it is time we get an organization to represent hams" etc etc etc. #I think from what I read, the presentation was what Ham Radio did for relief efforts in the Southeast, not necessarily how Homeowners Association(s) should be required to allow antennas etc.
ARRL does a very good job in my opinion trying to represent the majority of the "hobby" on various fronts, and while not making every ham radio operator happy, it is really the only source known to me to have the ability to try and make things better for us both at the local and national level. #Don't like what ARRL is doing? Don't be a member.
Try to form a large organization to please everyone in this hobby and you will have undertaken what I believe to be the impossible.
BUCK
n0klu
10-16-2005, 10:27 PM
Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Oct. 16 2005,20:34)]Quote[/b] (W5IQJ @ Oct. 16 2005,09:23)]Hey K2WH! #Better get your checkbook out again. #I'm not renewing my ARRL membership either after it expires at the end of this year.
Bill Sievers
W5IQJ
"Proud not to be renewing my ARRL membership"
I simply do not understand this way of thinking. #I can only surmise, individuals who proudly announce they are not joining or re-joining ARRL must not take ham radio seriously or maybe they are Ralph Kramden types. #The episode where he refuses to pay the rent and winds up on the street.
The only possible outcome, if taken by enough hams is to bankrupt the ARRL and then we have #ZERO representation anywhere. #How is leaving the ARRL a good thing for all? #
So, tell me Bill, why it is a good thing to dump the ARRL? #What happened to you that you proudly announce this on this site and in your bio?
Maybe its me.
K2WH
Bill like many others are dropping thier membership to the ARRL, can be stated in one phrase... CODELESS HF!
Quote[/b] (AE4TM @ Oct. 15 2005,16:33)]Lee,
I firmly believe that the ARRL has our best interests in mind and I fully support their efforts. When was the last time you worked CW or any HF mode?
Dr "Robot" (alias Ed AE4TM)
10 meter FM, a few months back. #When's the last time you used anything but a keyboard and a robot on HF? :-)
You keep asking me that question and I keep giving you the same answer.
I'll be moving to a location soon that will allow me to have two full-sized 160M dipoles. #Looking forward to that. #Although it has deed restrictions, when they wrote the CC&Rs, the only antennas they chose to control were satellite dishes. #Nothing about any other kind.
Maybe your buddy Bill Frist, in his spare time, can firmly slip in a few words to help us in some of his healthcare legislation, while he still can.....
Quote[/b] (k4kyv @ Oct. 15 2005,16:24)]Quote[/b] (w6em @ Oct. 16 2005,06:25)]And, no, loading flagpoles and vent extensions aren't the answer for effective antennas either. #Some CC&Rs actually have words to prohibit the use of flagpoles for anything but flying a flag. #So, they are "on" to those of us who try to get by that way.
So how are they to know that you have buried radials in the ground and that you are feeding rf to the metal mast, if you don't publicly announce it?
The ARCs have their spies :-) Besides, even though they can't stop you from flying the stars and stripes, they can probably tell you what kind of flag pole to buy. How high, what color, what kind of foundation and such stuff. Plus, most of them want detailed specifications prior to approval and then reserve the right to inspect it during installation, etc. etc. etc.
Who has a right to privacy and sanctity? I guess we do when we go camping in the forest.
Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Oct. 15 2005,17:56)]Quote[/b] (KD5PSH @ Oct. 15 2005,11:05)]The ARRL does not represent its members. Not well, at any rate. I belong only to keep an eye on them. The management has an agenda that is not all that much in the members' interests.
If an new organization were to be formed, I'll sign up.
There is another organization the AARA. #Heres the link:
http://www.k1man.com/web16/Page_1x.html
Go and join. #The ARRL doesn't need you.
K2WH
That's not an organization. That's one man's fantasy.
wa6itf
10-17-2005, 12:53 AM
Quote[/b] (KD5PSH @ Oct. 15 2005,15:05)]The ARRL does not represent its members. Not well, at any rate. I belong only to keep an eye on them. The management has an agenda that is not all that much in the members' interests.
If an new organization were to be formed, I'll sign up.
I was first licensed in 1959 as WA2HVK. About a year later one Wayne Sanger Green, W2NSD, decided that the ARRL needed a rival -- and -- with much fanfare - formed the Institute of Amateur Radio. 3 years later it was the Institute of what...? With all of Green's "green" and his ability to reach the ham radio masses -- the IoR became a forgotten "also-ran." Do any of you even remember it?
In the latter part of the 1960's, there was a nationwide move to sever all relations between the folks pioneering FM and repeaters and the ARRL. It came out of the New England area with eventual support from Southern California and most of the "great American South West."
The folks behind the proposed split wanted a VHF/UHF-only ARRL-like organization -- but had neither the political clout nor the money to make it happen. By the time I put up the WA2ZWP box in Brooklyn, this movement had run its course and the leaders on both sides of the nation had fallen to obscurity.
Nothing much happened in the area of a new national group till the middle 1980's. Thats when the late Don Stoner, W6TNS, put his public image and his own fortune into forming NARA -- The National Amateur Radio Association. While I don't know all the details, I do know that NARA had only a modicum of success in attracting members. It eventually became nothing more than a publishing house -- in many ways not unlike the ARRL publishing operations. Again, another case where a person with both the money and the public image could not get interest from the very people who were so bitterly coimplaining that the ARRL offered them nothing.
Last of coarse is the gentleman up in Maine -- Mr. Baxter, K1MAN and his American Amateur Radio Association. He took a rather different organizational approach of using the airwaves -- the ham radio airwaves -- to try to reach the masses. Unfortunately for K1MAN, the "masses" did not like his "approach" and we all know the atory as it stands today. The folks at the FCC have proposed a $21,000 fine (NAL) against Baxter and within the next day or two his license comes up for renewal. If the matter of the NAL is not adjudicated before then, the FCC can use its "Red Light Rule" to keep K1MAN off the air till the matter is settled.
But as to his having a viable alternative to the ARRL, I suspect most will agree that his AARA never was nor will it likely ever be.
What does this all say? Well, several things. First, even if you have the money and ability to communicate to the ham radio masses as did Green and Stoner, it does not mean people will react or even listen.
Second, while each of these groups claimed to be an alternative -- or in NARA's case -- an adjunct -- to ARRL, none had anything new to offer. The only rallye cry for three of them was that (paraphrased) -- the ARRL needs to be replaced because we (I) can do a better job. But there was no rallye point. Nothing to show the world of Amateur Radio that they could do more -- do it different and do it better than the ARRL.
Rather I am inclined to conclude that those in ham radio who are "joiners" have already "joined" the one organization that they do see as being "viable." Thats the ARRL. All the others -- some 400,000+ today -- are not "joiners." If they had been, Green would have seen his share in the '60's -- Stoner would likely have had an even greater number in the 1980's and even Mr. Baxter would likely have seen moderate numbers in the 1990's through today.
None of this happened, and this leads to the question of why? The answer is easy to figure out: Another group is really not wanted by the majority. Most hams are hobbyists and care little of ham radios politics. They want to get on a radio to "talk" and "have fun." Their "dedication" is to enjoyment of the hobby through "communication" and that 400,000+ potential members for a bew U.S. based organization could care less about joining if it were ever formed.
It is very easy to point fingers at the ARRL and and point out what is wrong. I do it all the time. But I also know that for all the attempts by people -- both with and without big money to form an "alternative" or "rival" that the ARRL is still the only political game in town. And likely it will continue to be the "only game in town" long after all of us have become Silent Keys.
This folks -- is reality.
de
WA6ITF
n4vox
10-17-2005, 01:19 AM
I agree with the comments why would the ARRL reply to your useless comments.
The first step to getting the covenents eliminated is to convince the committee that we perform useful and valuable service to the entire nation. The testimony certainly did that.
Nit picking by outsiders, shut up
AE5MH
10-17-2005, 02:31 AM
Quite Frankly despite the overall advantages a few amateurs would gain from being able to curcumvent an HOA (home owner association) restriction on thier property. Have I mentioned that is all cases both parties agreed at one time or another to these restrictions when they purchased the property?
It is my humble opinion that the Federal government has no business entering into the middle of what is a private property matter. If you ageed to deed restrictions and you wish to get out of the same, then MOVE! This medling is much like the "immenant domain" issue that the Supreme Court has meddled into (just ruled on). The Federal government has little right to meddle in or take sides on these case by case issues that were originally mutually agreed upon by the property owners and HOAs.
I personally know of several amateur operators that have addressed the issue to their HOA, and obtained either written or unwritten release of deed restrictions for amateur radio purposes.
BPL is a whole different animal that demands some manner of Federal regulation.
AE5MH
kc0ukk
10-17-2005, 03:13 AM
Quote[/b] (KG4RUL @ Oct. 15 2005,18:36)]Well I've got to say, that is the absolute opposite of what we deal with around Charleston, SC. #We don't have the option to just buy where there are no CC&Rs. #
Dennis,
The CC&R is part of the price you paid for your house. That is, your house cost $xxx,xxx dollars plus your external antenna.
Your neighbors bought houses with three bedrooms, two baths and no external antennas. It was part of their deal.
If the government were to step in and say that you can have your antenna, what about your neighbors? Would the government be required to buy them out?
KU2US
10-17-2005, 03:57 AM
I live in a rural town about 25 miles south of Rochester, NY. on a lake!! I put up a G5RV sloped from my roof about 15ft high to a 75' high cottonwood tree..My lot is 38' wide and 200' long (Great for 160 meters). My neighbor didnot like the look of the G5RV, so he called the DEC (Dept. of environmental conservation) AND the local FCC office on me? He said the antenna is hurting the tree? (Its over 120 yrs old). There are no antenna restrictions what-so-ever (We can even burn things in a fire pit!). Both agencies came down and inspected the so called infraction. The DEC guy left after I showed him my license, the FCC guy left in complete laughter..My neighbor is now starting to petition the local yocal town board for an antenna restriction. I told my neighbor that I would put a 6 meter yagi inside my garage and blow out his TV..End of story..No restriction..BUT-I did feel threatened..Case in point**Fight for what you already have, not for what you signed away..Ken #KU2US..
KG4RUL
10-17-2005, 04:09 AM
Quote[/b] (kc0ukk @ Oct. 16 2005,16:13)]Quote[/b] (KG4RUL @ Oct. 15 2005,18:36)]Well I've got to say, that is the absolute opposite of what we deal with around Charleston, SC. We don't have the option to just buy where there are no CC&Rs.
Dennis,
The CC&R is part of the price you paid for your house. That is, your house cost $xxx,xxx dollars plus your external antenna.
Your neighbors bought houses with three bedrooms, two baths and no external antennas. It was part of their deal.
If the government were to step in and say that you can have your antenna, what about your neighbors? Would the government be required to buy them out?
The point I am trying to make is that there are precious few available properties in the Charelston, AC area that are not encumbered with CC&Rs, or historical or other restrictions. Lets get on board with legislation that precludes this wholesale exclusion of antennas by requiring all newly established land use regulations to make reasonable accomodations.
Remember, though you may have the luxury of no restrictions at this time, you may later be forced into a situation where this is not so. Now is the time to be an activist.
Dennis http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Thanks for the comments. #Both pro and con. #I didn't start this thread because I dislike the ARRL, only its recent behavior. #Secondly, I will remain a member, and encourage others to as well. #Why? #Well, we stand a better chance of changing things we don't like than having nobody at all as a national organization.
Like I said before, I like many things that the ARRL does and has done on our behalf.
They're human beings. #Subject to the same vulnerabilities and influences as we are.
If we don't like what our elected government officials do, we change them. #Or, change the party, or whatever. #Same can be done with League officials.
73,
Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL
wa3vjb
10-17-2005, 01:30 PM
Responding to N7YS posting, yes, as someone aware of how hearings work on Capitol Hill, I can say lawmakers would have placed no restrictions on the requested Congressional appearance by that executive who was representing the group in Newington. It made sense that his testimony about emergency communications should have included a reference to deed-based restrictions on HF antennas that could enhance such communciations.
Such a reference could have been presented to members of Congress orally during the hearing, or could have been submitted in writing under a status known as "for the record." Under such status, a more elaborate, detailed disertation would compile and explain related issues that time constraints may not have allowed during the hearing itself.
I suspect the lawyer for the League and other executives at this volunteer, non-profit group simply failed to fully prepare the witness for his appearance.
The failure to do so is a serious error, not only for the missed opportunity, but for the vulnerability it creates when League people approach lawmakers on the covenant matter in the future. As Lee pointed out in a subsequent posting, members of Congress may ask why, if it's so important, didn't it come up during this hearing. These lawmakers are generally not members of the League, yet they have the same questions we have out here.
Don't let a refusal to subscribe to the ARRL keep you from questioning their methods and policies. It's the only way those people will feel motivated to change and improve themselves.
As for alternatives to representation than the League, a group that also trades by the name National Association for Amateur Radio, we already are seeing people stepping around this moribund little association and making positive, effective pitches on their own. The series of petitions for rulemaking by the FCC are evidence of how under-served these constituents feel toward the ARRL.
Someday we may see lawmakers instead requesting testimony from actual ham radio participants who led an emergency response, such as Julio from the National Hurricane Center station, or Mike Pilgrim, or the head of the Salvation Army's SATERN ham radio net. These folks are unfettered by a defective system of protecting the institution of the ARRL at the expense of their claimed mission of representing the hobby and its individual operators.
People look foolish when they blindly defend the ARRL against all criticism. The group needs work, yet it should be allowed to continue representing ham radio in the meantime. Quit trying to distract from valid challenges and negative reaction to their actions, because it doesn't change the problem. Spend that energy instead pressuring Newington to do better. They deserve nothing less from you as a paid subscriber.
Paul/VJB
Quote[/b] (AE5MH @ Oct. 16 2005,19:31)]Quite Frankly despite the overall advantages a few amateurs would gain from being able to curcumvent an HOA (home owner association) restriction on thier property. #Have I mentioned that is all cases both parties agreed at one time or another to these restrictions when they purchased the property? #
AE5MH
WRONG!! You do NOT have to sign agreement, or even be informed of those restrictions in many areas. They are part of the deed, not the purchase agreement.
The idea that "you should live by what you agreed to" is completely bogus. First, you may, or may not, have agreed or even known about them. Second, even though most hams know to research when looking for a house, you completely ignore people who become interested in amateur radio AFTER buying their house. To suggest that you must move to take up a new avocation, especially one that is absolutely harmless to the neighbors, is ridiculous.
Local governments may not restrict our activities unreasonably, why should HOAs, little quasi-governments without votes, be given greater powers?
Quote[/b] (w6em @ Oct. 17 2005,06:00)]Thanks for the comments. #Both pro and con. #I didn't start this thread because I dislike the ARRL, only its recent behavior. #Secondly, I will remain a member, and encourage others to as well. #Why? #Well, we stand a better chance of changing things we don't like than having nobody at all as a national organization.
Like I said before, I like many things that the ARRL does and has done on our behalf.
They're human beings. #Subject to the same vulnerabilities and influences as we are.
If we don't like what our elected government officials do, we change them. #Or, change the party, or whatever. #Same can be done with League officials.
73,
Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL
Excellent points, Lee. I agree 100%. You cannot affect changes from the outside!
Jim
K4JF
Greenville, South Carolina
W9WHE
10-17-2005, 02:55 PM
Failure after failure, why does ARRL impotence surprise anyone?
Have you forgotten past ARRL failures:
a) 220 Mhz;
b) BPL;
c) Spectrum bill;
d) Antenna Bill;
e) Dumbing down the hobby closer to CB; and
f) Over emphasis on contests and under emphassis on "service".
On the other hand, what are ARRL successes:
a) Books, subscriptions & awards;
b) having BOTH an executive director and a COO.
'THERE ARE NONE SO BLIND AS THOSE THAT WILL NOT SEE"
W9WHE
W9WHE
10-17-2005, 02:57 PM
KD5PSH writes:
"The ARRL does not represent its members. Not well, at any rate...........The management has an agenda that is not all that much in the members' interests"
-Amen.
WA5PL
10-17-2005, 04:05 PM
I'm extremely dissappointed with ARRL and with ARRL Chief Operating Officer Harold Kramer, WJ1B. This organization along with Harold Kramer , in my opinion, is no longer representing the best interests of Amateur Radio Operators.
Personally, I think we need to create a new organization that is more in tune with what the real needs are for Amateur Radio Operators. Our licensing/testing requirements have been watered down to a point where anyone can get a license and now there is serious consideration to eliminate the code requirement. What's next? If you feel like I do, please speak out and let your feelings be heard!
I have been an active Amateur Radio Operator for over 30 years and I am really worried about the direction ARRL is taking these days.
Paul Lucas WA5PL (Extra Class License Holder)
K0RFD
10-17-2005, 04:29 PM
Quote[/b] (wa6itf @ Oct. 16 2005,17:53)][quote=KD5PSH,Oct. 15 2005,15:05]
Last of coarse is the gentleman up in Maine -- Mr. Baxter, K1MAN and his American Amateur Radio Association.
Gentleman?
W9WHE
10-17-2005, 04:49 PM
WA5Pl writes:
"I'm extremely dissappointed with ARRL and with ARRL Chief Operating Officer Harold Kramer, WJ1B. This organization along with Harold Kramer , in my opinion, is no longer representing the best interests of Amateur Radio Operators"
More and more people are waking up to the reality of ARRL. In my view, the Newington Boys Club is run by a few, for a few, and ham radio be damned. I'm glad to see more and more people see ARRL for what it really is.
W9WHE
Proud to have CANCELLED my ARRL membership!
Quote[/b] (w6em @ Oct. 13 2005,12:26)]On September 29, ARRL Chief Operating Officer Harold Kramer, WJ1B, testified before the House Subcommittee on Telecommunications and the Internet about how well amateur radio came through for the people of the Gulf Coast following Katrina. #The Committee asked the ARRL to testify, which was quite an honor. #Not something that happens whenever someone or some organization has a perceived need to communicate with Congress. #Definitely much more meaningful than a photo-op with a Member of Congress.
Why was the League invited? #Ostensibly, to comment about interoperability of telecommunications following hurricane Katrina. #You can read the ARRL news blurb (http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2005/09/30/2/) for yourself. #Now, here's where it gets really interesting.
We've all been told by the ARRL of the third submission of Representative Steven Israel's Bill to overrule CC&Rs and require PRB-1's reasonable accommodations instead. #That happened on September 23, amid much fanfare and even a local Long Island TV news reporter interviewed Mr. Israel.
According to the House of Representative's Bill Summary report, the Bill was immediately sent to the House Energy and Commerce Committee, to the attention of its Subcommittee on Telecommunications and the Internet. #So, the very Subcommittee that Kramer read his pre-prepared testimony to was the group that sat on, and killed Israel's two former Bills proposing to do the same thing: Apply PRB-1 to homeowner association CC&Rs.
Nothing, I repeat, nothing in what Kramer read to the Subcommittee had anything to say about what amateur radio's greatest threat to not only its future, but its ability to do, over and over again, what it did so well in the aftermath of Katrina. #Only Kramer's statements that amateur radio would continue to do it again and again with no exception.
Among the successes Kramer noted, were the federally-sponsored SHARES and MARS programs, and their linkages into and from the area via HF. #Obviously, we know that successful, dependable HF communications requires good antennas. #Not just mobile whips.
So, Kramer left them with the impression that "everything was robust and OK with amateur radio's ability to communicate in disasters."
Really? #So, now, the League wants us to again write our Congressional Representatives, and tell them, individually, that unless PRB-1 is expanded to pre-empt CC&R prohibitions, we won't be effective communicators?
Let's hear your opinion why the ARRL said nothing while this golden opportunity presented itself. #An opportunity to tell the very Committee that killed the prior two Bills just why we need to have CC&Rs pre-empted. # No, I don't think it was stupidity or the excuse that "they didn't want us to say anything else." #Those presenting pre-prepared written testimony have a great deal of latitude in what they put in their testimony.
Were they silent because they really don't want CC&Rs pre-empted so that there won't be a flood of us on HF when all code requirements are lifted? #Or, is it in the interest of limiting HF to only those that have antennas now: The privileged few? #In any case, the ARRL needs to hear from each and every one of us.
They heard from me about a week ago, and, as I expected, no reply.
73,
Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL
Hey! if they can take your property for commercial development so some can get richer, they can do whaterver else.... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Oct. 17 2005,07:54)]Quote[/b] (w6em @ Oct. 17 2005,06:00)]Thanks for the comments. #Both pro and con. #I didn't start this thread because I dislike the ARRL, only its recent behavior. #Secondly, I will remain a member, and encourage others to as well. #Why? #Well, we stand a better chance of changing things we don't like than having nobody at all as a national organization.
Like I said before, I like many things that the ARRL does and has done on our behalf.
They're human beings. #Subject to the same vulnerabilities and influences as we are.
If we don't like what our elected government officials do, we change them. #Or, change the party, or whatever. #Same can be done with League officials.
73,
Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL
Excellent points, Lee. #I agree 100%. #You cannot affect changes from the outside!
Jim
K4JF
Greenville, South Carolina
Failures why? let`s see now... more hot air vented here then to your congressmen and reps... `nuff said... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
N3KIP
10-17-2005, 05:03 PM
Quote[/b] (w4hwd @ Oct. 14 2005,20:41)]Seriously, though...exactly how is the gub'ment supposed to gain jurisdiction over a legal and private contract, signed by a legal adult of his own free will, when the contract specifically states, among other things, antenna restrictions. That's a private contract. You sign of your own free will? What? Is Congress going to invoke an unconstitutional use for the Commerce Clause, much the way they have to put the 2nd Amendment on life support?
There are lots of statutes that limit the enforceability of private contracts, although most are state law. There's no problem with congress passing a law that preempts covenant restrictions for radio hams, as radio is interstate commerce. so now it's my turn to say it - duh! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
KD6NIG
10-17-2005, 05:29 PM
Quote[/b] (WA5PL @ Oct. 17 2005,09:05)]I'm extremely dissappointed with ARRL and with ARRL Chief Operating Officer Harold Kramer, WJ1B. #This organization along with Harold Kramer , in my opinion, is no longer representing the best interests of Amateur Radio Operators. #
Personally, #I think we need to create a new organization that is more in tune with what the real needs are for Amateur Radio Operators. #Our licensing/testing requirements have been watered down to a point where anyone can get a license and now there is serious consideration to eliminate the code requirement. #What's next? #If you feel like I do, #please speak out and let your feelings be heard! # #
I have been an active Amateur Radio Operator for over 30 years and I am really worried about the direction ARRL is taking these days.
Paul Lucas #WA5PL #(Extra Class License Holder)
Excellent. When you get that group started, let me know and I'll join!
ki6lo
10-17-2005, 05:57 PM
Quote[/b] (AA8X @ Oct. 14 2005,20:25)]It is time the ARRL is replaced with an organization that fully supports amateur radio and has an indisputable interest in hams. .......
So AA8X, what are you going to call your new organization? Where is it going to be headquartered? What is the requirements to join? Dues? I, for one, am interested.
Before the whining of ARRL bashers starts, I am a member of the ARRL and yes, I do agree that the ARRL is not unfoulable. They have messed up in the past and will do so in the future. But instead of members and non-members alike to sit back whining and lamenting about how things SHOULD be done, I suggest either jump into the fray and help make it better or as AA8X suggests, start a competitive organization. Competition is the fuel that improves organizations and businesses in a free enterprise society.
But if one were to create a competing organization and involve itself to the level of the ARRL, I'm sure it too would be faced with many of the same issues and hurdles to overcome. But who knows, maybe the leadership of the new organization may have a better insight to get things accomplished that the ARRL has not done in the past. Better yet, why not run for a top leadership position in the ARRL to help improve an existing organization.
Like all amateurs, I can't see the future but I would be open to see, hear and discuss the efforts of any alternate ham radio focussed organizations.
Ham radio is more than a 2M repeater and an HT!
Gene KI6LO
W9GRN
10-17-2005, 06:40 PM
Quote[/b] (K0RFD @ Oct. 17 2005,09:29)]Quote[/b] (wa6itf @ Oct. 16 2005,17:53)][quote=KD5PSH,Oct. 15 2005,15:05]
Last of coarse is the gentleman up in Maine -- Mr. Baxter, K1MAN and his American Amateur Radio Association.
Gentleman?
Say what? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
k3msb
10-17-2005, 07:01 PM
Quote[/b] (N3KIP @ Oct. 17 2005,10:03)]There are lots of statutes that limit the enforceability of private contracts, although most are state law. There's no problem with congress passing a law that preempts covenant restrictions for radio hams, as radio is interstate commerce. so now it's my turn to say it - duh! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Amateur radio is interstate commerce? #I can see how commercial radio might be classified as such, but amateur radio is not commercial in nature.
The use of the commerce clause is one of, if not the, reasons the Feds use to usurp states rights.
They are too weak in the backbone to confront members of Congress with the truth......
w4lgh
10-17-2005, 07:54 PM
This is a really good question! Not really sure how to answer it as I was not there. However one would have thought that while we were "tooting" our own horn before Congress, that it would have been a Golden opportunity to have brought it to their attention.
I live in a CC&R community, but fortunately, my property backs up to some woods, where I have my antennas. Not my property, not part of the association, not their problem, but I know my days are limited, before someone clears this property and I lose my antennas.
My community leaders are fighting with home owners ,right now, over their Satellite antennas, which are already protected by PRB-1, so I am sure one would live with a hassle if Ham antennas were included.
Not that I don't want them included, I do, and I have written my reps to support it. But these people think they have all the power!
Soooooo... where do we go from here?
Just be sure to write your reps and urge them to support this. Write them often and over and over again. If we all stand behind it, we just might get it thru. Don't depend on someone else to make this happen, make it happen yourself!!!!
73 de W4LGH - Alan
St Johns County ARES EC
www.w4lgh.com
ke4zhn
10-17-2005, 07:55 PM
Those who feel that the league is actually interested in the hobby are only fooling themselves. To them, its all about money...nothing more.
Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Oct. 17 2005,07:55)]Failure after failure, why does ARRL impotence surprise anyone?
Have you forgotten past ARRL failures:
a) 220 Mhz;
b) BPL;
c) Spectrum bill;
d) Antenna Bill;
e) Dumbing down the hobby closer to CB; and
f) Over emphasis on contests and under emphassis on "service".
On the other hand, what are ARRL successes:
a) Books, subscriptions & awards;
b) having BOTH an executive director and a COO.
'THERE ARE NONE SO BLIND AS THOSE THAT WILL NOT SEE"
W9WHE
Under successes you forgot:
WARC bands
60 Meters
BPL fight (ongoing representation)
QSL bureaus
training programs
and a few hundred more.....
Several quick thoughts:
1) Not everybody has the luxury to select an abode without CC&Rs today. #In some areas they are ubiquitous in developments, and not all hams can afford to buy a lone house high on a hill with surrounding acreage. #The need to live near your work, for instance, is one of many conditions that may override one's desire to avoid CC&Rs.
2) Without a legal exemption, we will see even more houses and developments come under odious CC&Rs every year. #
3) Not everybody wants or needs to erect a 100' tower, so the argument about unsightly Rohns high enough to require aircraft strobes dragging down property values is a bit overblown. #A tribander on the chimney, a trap dipole in the trees, or an inobtrusive vertical are a LOT better than having to run QRP on an indoor wire and I can't see ANY legitimate argument against any of them.
4) There are many restrictions written into deeds over the years that become patently unacceptable over time, and over the years, laws have been passed or changed to nullify them, including most recently restrictions on multi-cast and satellite dishes.
5) The ARRL's anemic lobbying efforts are no substitute for making your own voice heard with your representatives. #We all need to contact our reps and give them the arguments for exempting antennas for amateur radio operators, who, after all, are federally licensed to operate and are supposed to know the laws on RF safety. # Do it as individuals. # Do it through your local radio club(s). # Do it with your ARES/RACES groups.
6) I pay my ARRL dues and, for them, I get QST and a permanent forwarding email address for my QSL and eyeball cards. #I figure with that I've pretty much gotten my money's worth and don't sweat the rest of the stuff and nonsense.
73, N2NZ
To the ARRL bashers: One of the most vocal critics of the League was a life member (maybe even a charter life member). Why? Because he knew that his voice would carry more weight than if he wasn't. He repeatedly exhorted those who opposed to the League's policies, all the way back to incentive licensing, to join and work for change from the inside. He beat that drum repeatedly in his magazine. I don't know how much good he did, but he was more effective as a member than if he had not been.
I'm referring to Wayne Green, W2NSD.
I've been a life member for 26 years, and hope to be for many more.
No, they're not perfect. Why should they pay any attention to your suggestions for improvement if all you do is complain on an Internet forum? Get off your butts and work at it.
ke6irp
10-17-2005, 09:11 PM
What a joke--- but frankly no surprise--- The arrl is presidning over the demise of the hobby/ars--- from dumping the code cheerleading to failure to advocate accross a number of issues--- they are a mess----- sad
w1buz
10-17-2005, 10:22 PM
ALL THIS ARGUING AND BICKERING SOUNDS LIKE A BUNCH OF CB,ERS , WORK TOGETHER PEOPLE AND ENJOY THE HOBBY
KF6MPC
10-17-2005, 11:02 PM
I think people should think outside the box. If a guy wants to erect a large 100 foot antenna then build an artifical palm tree and put your antennas on top of the "tree" . Why are people so hung up on silly rules. I learned spending 20 years in the US Navy there is more than one way to "skin a cat", so to speak!
WY0COP
10-17-2005, 11:25 PM
hummmmmm from ARRL web page
Today ARRL, with approximately 152,000 members, is the largest organization of radio amateurs in the United States. The ARRL is a not-for-profit organization that:
promotes interest in Amateur Radio communications and experimentation
represents US radio amateurs in legislative matters, and
maintains fraternalism and a high standard of conduct among Amateur Radio operators. >>>>>>>>\
There would be no Amateur Radio as we know it today were it not for the ARRL.
Wow that is quite a statement....but it seems that they do quite a bit for the amateur radio hobby.
WY0COP
10-18-2005, 12:45 AM
Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Oct. 17 2005,07:55)]Failure after failure, why does ARRL impotence surprise anyone?
Have you forgotten past ARRL failures:
a) 220 Mhz;
b) BPL;
c) Spectrum bill;
d) Antenna Bill;
e) Dumbing down the hobby closer to CB; and
f) Over emphasis on contests and under emphassis on "service".
Dumbing down the hobby closer to CB......
What are you saying?
AE4TM
10-18-2005, 02:23 AM
Quote[/b] (w6em @ Oct. 16 2005,16:44)]Quote[/b] (AE4TM @ Oct. 15 2005,16:33)]Lee,
I firmly believe that the ARRL has our best interests in mind and I fully support their efforts. When was the last time you worked CW or any HF mode?
Dr "Robot" (alias Ed AE4TM)
10 meter FM, a few months back. When's the last time you used anything but a keyboard and a robot on HF? :-)
You keep asking me that question and I keep giving you the same answer.
I'll be moving to a location soon that will allow me to have two full-sized 160M dipoles. Looking forward to that. Although it has deed restrictions, when they wrote the CC&Rs, the only antennas they chose to control were satellite dishes. Nothing about any other kind.
Maybe your buddy Bill Frist, in his spare time, can firmly slip in a few words to help us in some of his healthcare legislation, while he still can.....
I work 10m FM, 2m/70cm/1.2GHz FM, and satellite FM radio when hiking up mountains. Since my FM contacts are generally by voice with hand written logs, it's best for you to search for my callsign on the ISS contact page to see if I'm checking into the net. As for non-FM modes, the last time I checked into India and Brazil with high speed CW was approx one month ago.
As for your responses that you claim to have posted, I've never observed any of them. If you respond to this post, please feel free to paste a QRZ link so I can see for myself.
As for Frist, he was a thoracic surgery professor back in Tennessee around 15 years ago and not a personal friend like you suggest. I do admit he was one of the best surgeons Vanderbilt ever hired but I did not know him personally. I was a PhD physicist working for the Oak Ridge National Laboratory at that time. I'm now a California resident who points out that you now live closer to Tennessee than I. Perhaps I should ask you why you brought this comment into this thread when you live only two states away from Tennessee?
Dr Robot (alias Ed AE4TM) "A devout supporter of the ARRL"
Of course you didn't get a reply from anyone at the League. Why? Because the last 2 paragraphs of your posting are sheer, complete and utter nonsense.
While the Internet can be a wonderful tool, it can also be a weapon used to distribute gross misinformation. Sadly, human nature being what it is, some folks are very gullible and will believe any nonsense they read.
Everytime I read one of these ridiculous anti-ARRL conspiracy-theory-of-the-week diatribes, I swear I will never again fall into this trap. Someday I will finally learn.
Ham radio's biggest enemy is not ARRL, not the Morse Code haters, not the Morse Code lovers, not CC&Rs, and not even BPL. It's us and our tendency to participate in these stupid conspiracy theories.
N4KZ
Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Oct. 17 2005,07:55)]Failure after failure, why does ARRL impotence surprise anyone?
Have you forgotten past ARRL failures:
a) 220 Mhz;
b) BPL;
c) Spectrum bill;
d) Antenna Bill;
e) Dumbing down the hobby closer to CB; and
f) Over emphasis on contests and under emphassis on "service".
On the other hand, what are ARRL successes:
a) Books, subscriptions & awards;
b) having BOTH an executive director and a COO.
'THERE ARE NONE SO BLIND AS THOSE THAT WILL NOT SEE"
W9WHE
Don’t forget incentive licensing, another ARRL fiasco.
KD6NIG
10-18-2005, 03:03 PM
Quote[/b] (KF6MPC @ Oct. 17 2005,16:02)]I think people should think outside the box. If #a guy wants to erect a large 100 foot antenna then build an artifical palm tree and put your antennas on top of the "tree" . Why are people so hung up on silly rules. I learned spending 20 years in the US Navy there is more than one way to "skin a cat", so to speak!
There is a cell phone tower outside of Sacramento that they attempted to make look like a "tree"....needless to say, they should have just left it looking like a plain tower.
ad7kj
10-18-2005, 07:22 PM
As a recently non-renewed member of ARRL
I can say that I did not renew beause of
the information that ARRL sent
me on a regular schedule.....
Does this sound familiar to anyone else?
Quote[/b] (AA8X @ Oct. 18 2005,07:14)]Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Oct. 17 2005,07:55)]Failure after failure, why does ARRL impotence surprise anyone?
Have you forgotten past ARRL failures:
a) 220 Mhz;
b) BPL;
c) Spectrum bill;
d) Antenna Bill;
e) Dumbing down the hobby closer to CB; and
f) Over emphasis on contests and under emphassis on "service".
On the other hand, what are ARRL successes:
a) Books, subscriptions & awards;
b) having BOTH an executive director and a COO.
'THERE ARE NONE SO BLIND AS THOSE THAT WILL NOT SEE"
W9WHE
Don’t forget incentive licensing, another ARRL fiasco.
Bravo Sierra. Incentive licensing was a great success, in my opinion. I, for one, would not be a ham except for incentive licensing and in the last 30 years, I might have contributed at least a little bit to the service (quite a few public service activities, mentoring several hams all the way to Extra, a number of years as VE, Boy Scout service, etc.). And there are thousands more like me.
Put "incentive licensing" in the "success" column as far as I'm concerned.
Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Oct. 18 2005,12:36)][quote=AA8X,Oct. 18 2005,07:14]
Put "incentive licensing" in the "success" column as far as I'm concerned.
I can understand those who were upset at losing privileges as a result of incentive licensing, regardless of its merits.
What I do not understand is why many continue to hold incentive licensing against ARRL when those who advocated for it are all long retired or dead. Heck, I wasn't even alive when incentive licensing went down, and I'm solidly middle aged.
n0kmp
10-18-2005, 10:28 PM