Waiting on the Levees?

[W2ILP]

The latest reports from the U.S. Army Corp of Engineers says that the New Orleans levees can not just be built higher to survive future category 4 hurricanes. #There is a basic problem in that the earth that the levees is built on can not support the weight of taller and heavier levees. #This is because the earth is so spongy that it becomes compressed and can not form a firm foundation. #The engineers now say that the levees need to be entirely rebuilt from scratch by first driving piles deep into the earth to create stable and firm support.

This will cost more money than originally planned for but it must be done. #Estimators say the work would take a long time to complete as funding comes in at a trickling rate and thus for the duration, the New Orleans area is at risk for more flooding, even from minor rain storms.

The U.S. has built the Panama Canal and the Hoover dam and has sent men to the Moon. #In each case we succeeded when other nations failed...but now we can't even fix the levees properly in a timely manner! #We now have better tools and machines that can help do the job than we had in the past but unfortunately we don't have Teddy Roosevelt, FDR or JFK in the White House.

What happened to American stick-to-it-ness? #What happened to the little red engine that said..."Yes I can"?

w2ilp (Install Levee Piles)

[WA5KRP]

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Oct. 10 2005,17:38)]This will cost more money than originally planned for but it must be done. #Estimators say the work would take a long time to complete as funding comes in at a trickling rate and thus for the duration, the New Orleans area is at risk for more flooding, even from minor rain storms.
That would be an Illogical Lamentable Project.


Why rebuild a perfectly good city BELOW sea level at staggering costs? #Shore up existing levees and take care of the Port of New Orleans. #Do a study on the feasability of reopening the downtown business district and figure out how far the average grunt worker would have to commute. #Put amusement parks and golf courses in the flooded residential and industrial areas.

Consider the obvious. #What you propose may be a bad idea. #We have NO IDEA what it will cost to clean up New Orleans. #Presently, it's a toxic waste dump that makes Love Canal look like a soiled postage stamp. #Simply running a lawnmower through the grass will kick up a lethal cloud of dust. #How is 189 mi² of THAT remediated?


WA5KRP
Texas

[N1MLF]

My vote is that it should become our token *Atlantis* as a memorial & reminder that building below sea level is simply a bad idea. But my experience sez we'll dump a few billion into it to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it's a bad idea.
Any takers on a coffee bet??
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[N7YS]

I agree with MLF. It is not a good idea to build under sea level, except in Death Valley. Unless you build on stilts to say 10 feet above sealevel to first floor. I see that lots of times next to river levees.

[W2ILP]

wa5krp

I think that you missed my point. The present levees can not be "shored up". They must be entirely replaced. A debate on whether it is worth doing is another subject. GWB said he wants to send a man to Mars. I think saving a city of the U.S. is more important at this point in time.

w2ilp (Important Levee Project?)...Maybe it can be done if it gets "faith based" support....but don't expect it to continue to float on water.

[WA5KRP]

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Oct. 10 2005,20:54)]wa5krp

I think that you missed my point. #The present levees can not be "shored up". #They must be entirely replaced. #
Quote[/b] ]The latest reports from the U.S. Army Corp of Engineers says that the New Orleans levees can not just be built higher to survive future category 4 hurricanes. #There is a basic problem in that the earth that the levees is built on can not support the weight of taller and heavier levees.

Your point was made on upgrading to a Cat 4 levee system. #My angle was that we should shore up the existing levees to handle a Cat 3 because I truly believe the cost of a Cat 4 levee system will be stupendous and still leave what's left vulnerable to a Cat 5.

But looking past that - why rebuild a city below sea level? #When the old New Orleans is 80 to 90 percent bulldozed there's not much left but a toxic waste dump. #And if the government decides to go through with reconstruction, a square foot of New Orleans will rival Tokyo and San Francisco in cost. #Where would the minimum wage workers live?

We haven't heard squat from the EPA. #Wait until they get in there, do their surveys and find out the cost of remediation. #That alone will be a ball-buster. #Virtually all infrastructure (power, hospitals, police and fire stations, sewer, water, cable, phone) will need replacement. #A decision has to be made on the levees and those costs rolled in. #And all that is before a single new home or apartment has been built and downtown high rise office buildings reclaimed (if possible).

I just can't see the feasibility of it.



WA5KRP
Texas

[K9STH]

It isn't "nice" to fool with Mother Nature!

When the levees were first constructed over 200 years ago there was not the knowledge that we have today about soil compressability. Basically, the levee system has just been being expanded over the past 2 centuries. Frankly, the situation was just a disaster waiting to happen.

Mardi Gras and everything else that was traditional in New Orleans needs to have a critical look taken. Since the French Quarter is above sea level that area can be rebuilt to take care of the wind damage. The same with other select areas of the city. But the remainder, that which was flooded by hurricane Katrina, should be very seriously considered to be returned to wetlands. The long term benefits including present day costs of restoring the levees and all of the houses, buildings, and so forth. It would be much cheaper to relocate the residents of New Orleans to higher ground including building new housing than it would be to completely rebuild the levee system.

Glen, K9STH

[W2ILP]

The trouble is that compressed mud can not support the present levees and that water doesn't just leak over them it leaks under them. Thus they need to be entirely replaced. The new levees must be built on level stable foundations.

I will now tell you a story about land fill in The Bronx, NY. There is land fill in the East Bronx that was once part of the East River. It was built up on garbage and ashes. The land was condemned for building for years but land in NY is expensive and so there are always those who want to develop it. After WW2 there was a housing shortage in NY and temporary quonset huts were set up on the land fill for returning service men and their new families. These huts had to be destroyed in a few years because they were sinking. A nearby bowling alley had to be destroyed because its lanes were not level and could not be shored up. The Loral Corp saw a bargain and bought some of the river land. At first they built a large quonset type hut on it and used it for a production factory. This building was temporary because it was also sinking. They finally got a permit to build a two floor brick building there, but could not get a permit for a larger building. BUT then it was decided by the NY governor and mayor that a complex of 14 story apartment buildings must be built on this landfill to provide for middle class housing. This was a vast engineering project. Piles were driven into the earth using steam pile drivers that towered over 100 feet high and the hammering of the piles shook the entire neighborhood. After the piles were set , reinforced concrete was poured. The 14 story brick buildings that were built upon the level foundations have stood level for over 40 years.

They had said it could not be done...BUT it was done.

w2ilp (Install level platforms)

[kb2vxa]

Hi guys,

It wasn't the centuries old levees that breached, 'twas the ones built by the Army. Does that tell you something? There is the big picture to consider, the whole delta is subsiding faster than it can be replaced by the river due to those very levees. (channelization) It's not a matter of reconstruction but a matter of reclamation. A rethinking of the whole plan is in order, work WITH nature, not against it, that's a losing battle every time. Fire the Army, hire God, hmmm.

FYI, every summer storm season NJ is a little MS for the very same reason, stupidity. Developers build where nothing should be built and people are dumb enough to buy houses in flood prone areas. I just saw on the news Wayne is under water for the second time this year. Remember the Johnstown (PA) flood? We have several every year.

[KE7DFP]

But Mayor Nagin's promised he'd build a newer, bigger New Orleans.

[W8EFA]

The levees can be rebuilt around NO and there are plenty of other places below sea level. Are we going to abandon Texas and Florida and the Carolinas coastal areas also?

Take a look at what was built in the Netherlands. Netherlands three-tier dikes are specified for 10,000 year storms, and the N.O. levees were only spec'd for 30 year storms.

NO is special and unique and can be rebuilt and protected. If they can protect the Netherlands which 25% is below sea level we can protect one city!

[KC2KFC]

Who gets to pay for all the rebuilding?

[K9STH]

According to published reports officials in the Netherlands are taking a good look at their system of dikes due to the flooding caused by hurricane Katrina. There has not been a serious breach of one of the Dutch dikes for a little over 50 years. However, there have been some "minor" breaches in recent years and the entire system is starting to show its age. The basic result is that officials in the Netherlands are starting to worry that their dikes may not hold if a storm like Katrina hits the North Sea.

As for Texas, Florida, and the Carolina coast: There are very few levees in Texas. A lot of seawalls which are in place to protect the land from sea surges, yes, levees, no. There is a definitely difference. As for Florida I don't know of any levees and the same for the Carolinas. Again there are sea walls which have been built to protect the land from surges and to help prevent erosion of the land due to action from the sea.

The problems in Port Arthur and similar Texas coastal areas were due to the fact that the storm surge was higher than the sea wall. The surge came over the sea wall in places and did flood a number of areas. However, the floods were generally not due to any failure of levees.

Defacto levees were made when the Houston Ship Canal was dredged in the early 1900s and that is still being added to today as the ship canal is dredged on a regular basis. Some of the dredged material was brought over into the San Jacinto Monument area in the late 1990s to save about 300 acres of wetlands from being lost to the Gulf of Mexico. This is the location of the final battle between the Texian Army under command of Sam Houston and Antonio López de Santa Anna Pérez de Lebrón (better known just as Santa Anna). Also, it is the permanent location of the battleship U.S.S. Texas.

To preserve the beaches for tourism many Florida cities actually dredge sand from out in the Gulf of Mexico and bring it up onto the beach area. For example, the City of Panama City Beach, Florida, has had to do this twice in the past several years and is going to have to do it again. Whenever there is a major storm the beaches are eroded often becoming just a small percentage of what they were previously. To keep the tourists coming the city spent millions of dollars pumping sand from out in the Gulf of Mexico back to the shore.

Unfortunately, it seems that whenever the beach has been increased in size to satisfy the tourist trade then another hurricane hits and the beach is again destroyed. Fortunately, there is a sea wall along the entire area that does protect the houses inland. My wife's eldest sister lives 5 blocks from the beach in Panama City Beach and it will take about a 50 to 55 foot storm surge to even think of any water getting to her house.

Louisiana has lost a large area of wetlands to the sea. There was an article in National Geographic magazine a little while back about this. Unfortunately, the channelization of the Mississippi River no longer allows the silt carried down river to be deposited to replenish the land but it is now carried out into the Gulf of Mexico. This is thought to be one of the major reasons that the Gulf of Mexico is infringing on the coast line.

It may take a while, but it seems that whenever man tries to counteract Mother Nature that she seems to "get even". There are some in the scientific community that believe if the levees in New Orleans were removed that within 50 to 100 years that the silt from the Mississippi would fill in the areas that were protected by the levees and that they would be above sea level and thus be much better suited for habitation.

The Mississippi River, until it was channelized, actually changed course numerous times over the years. That single fact is the primary reason that the river was channelized in the first place. However, allowing the Mississippi Rive the freedom to choose where it goes also allows the land to build up and thus produce a better barrier to natural disasters.

Glen, K9STH

[ky5u]

The river levees took their biggest test in the early 80's with two "100 year floods". The river crested something like 7-10 feet over flood stage and the water was within 3' of the top of the levees on the Mississippi. During the time, New Orleans had a day of 10" of rain and there was widespread flooding in some areas.

After the water receeded, the levees on the river were strengthened with concrete pads on the river side. As someone mentioned, the levees that broke were not river levees (except in Rita when a ship breached a levee near Venice south of New Orleans by 90 miles) in Katrina. At any rate, the lake and canal levees can be repaired by laying of concrete mats on the waterway side.

The issue is when you want to make them BIGGER. This would probably be done by driving sheet pilings on the LAND side of the levee and building a new levee BEHIND the current ones. They are also talking about going to north Louisiana and digging a big hole for all the debris to be buried. The dirt that comes out of the hole would be used to raise the level of the land 5 feet with appropriate sloping to drain properly. This dirt could be used for the levees too.

New Orleans will be rebuilt on the current site. There will be changes in codes, construction, elevations, etc. But there will be little or no relocation. My guess is that the levees will be built to pre Katrina levels and then there will be a stop while the debate rages on. Mayor Nagin needs to get his voter base back while the best thing for the city would be to not build alot of low cost housing. Basically if you want to work and hold a job, come back otherwise, stay where you are.

[W8EFA]

Quote[/b] (KC2KFC @ Oct. 11 2005,07:13)]Who gets to pay for all the rebuilding?
How about ending the Bush Tax cuts for the top 2%. I would also roll them back. Getting out of Iraq would more than pay for it for what we are spending there daily.

[KE7DFP]

In a river delta system like NO area, the ground will be constantly sinking into the mud. #That's why NO gets a little lower each year. #If we weren't interfering with nature, that amount of settling would be replaced each year by silt deposits from river flooding. #When we dike or dam areas, we stop that natural action, and are fighting against forces much stronger than engineering. #It will be the source of endless, expensive problems, with only bandaid solutions at best. # # If NO has such a unique character, #it will survive a move where most # new construction is built on a MUCH cheaper site that provides a REAL, and long term solution. It will just become another era of the history of NO.

[AC0H]

Quote[/b] ] In each case we succeeded when other nations failed...but now we can't even fix the levees properly in a timely manner!
Define "timely manner".
It's been 6 weeks since the storm and the entire city isn't dry yet. If what you say is true it will take YEARS to completely rebuild those levies.

Yes we built the Panama Canal which took 12 years if I'm not mistaken, and we went to the moon which took 9 years, cost three lives, and was a 50-50 crap shoot on each launch. You really don't want to, nor can you rush through a job like rebuilding those levies. The design work alone will take six months.

[W8EFA]

Quote[/b] ]Holland's Delta Plan has never failed to hold back the sea. While the history of Netherlands is littered with stories of flood and ruin caused by dike failure, the history of the last 40 years is quite different thanks to modern engineering methods (concrete is a good thing) and much higher construction standards. Today Holland's dikes are required to be built to a "Delta Safe" standard capable of withstanding a storm of a magnitude that might occur only once in 10,000 years. The result of such massive construction is that no one under age 40 in Holland has ever seen a dike breached by the sea.


I don't know where Glen came up with they are worried but I am sure man is always worried that something could go wrong. The Netherland dikes are considered one of the 7 wonders of the world by engineers. If Holland can do it I am sure we can! Holland and the Ntherlands are much lower and compromise an area the size of Massachusetts and Connecticut below sea level. NO can be and will be rebuilt and protected.

[KC2KFC]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Oct. 11 2005,10:05)]How about ending the Bush Tax cuts for the top 2%. I would also roll them back. Getting out of Iraq would more than pay for it for what we are spending there daily.
Who are the top 2%?

[W8EFA]

Quote[/b] (KC2KFC @ Oct. 11 2005,11:29)]Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Oct. 11 2005,10:05)]How about ending the Bush Tax cuts for the top 2%. #I would also roll them back. #Getting out of Iraq would more than pay for it for what we are spending there daily.
Who are the top 2%?
Nobody you know http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KC2KFC]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Oct. 11 2005,12:34)]Quote[/b] (KC2KFC @ Oct. 11 2005,11:29)]Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Oct. 11 2005,10:05)]How about ending the Bush Tax cuts for the top 2%. I would also roll them back. Getting out of Iraq would more than pay for it for what we are spending there daily.
Who are the top 2%?
Nobody you know http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Are you insinuating something?

[kl7aj]

Quote[/b] (N7YS @ Oct. 10 2005,18:05)]I agree with MLF. It is not a good idea to build under sea level, except in Death Valley. Unless you build on stilts to say 10 feet above sealevel to first floor. I see that lots of times next to river levees.
Yes.....and Death Valley isn't exactly a bustling metropolis anyway. The could evacuate the whole place with one tour bus.


Eric

[ab8ma]

You know, up hear in the North we are about to enter that time where we will be up to our plateau in leaves. Instead of burning them, why don't we ship them all down to replace the leaves where they are most needed?

Oh, you meant levees.

Nevermind.

[K9STH]

EFA:

There was an article in the Dallas Morning News a few days after the levees started failing in New Orleans. The article outlined all of the various things that the Dutch have done to try and keep the dikes safe. However, the article pointed out that those officials in the Netherlands that were responsible for the upkeep of the dike system had been having "second thoughts" about the safety of the dike system since so much of it is aging.

There was a major break in the system in 1953 (that is called "The Disaster" in The Netherlands) and there have been a number of "minor" breaks since then. However, even though the weather that comes across the North Sea can be brutal (especially in winter), the Dutch dikes have never been subjected to a storm like Katrina (even the one in 1953 was not as severe). After reviewing the situation in New Orleans the Dutch officials have been reconsidering the status of the dikes.

If the studies show that there is a definite deficiency in the dike system there will have to be a crash program to reinforce the system that is now in place or, when reinforcement is not possible, to completely replace the dike.

If there were to be a major failure in the dike system of the Netherlands then the area flooded would be even much larger (because of all of the land "reclaimed" from the sea since World War II) than what was flooded in 1940 when many of the dikes were intentionally breached when the German Army was invading.

Also, the Dutch are planning on actually breaching various dikes, if necessary, in rural areas to relieve pressure on dikes that are nearer to urban areas. This information was from a 2nd article in the Dallas Morning News.

Anyway, it was from the article in the newspaper that I got my information.

Glen, K9STH

[W8EFA]

Well if I remember correctly the Dikes were rebuilt after the 53 break. #From what I understand they are getting older and work needs to be done which is to be expected as they age. #However they are still an engineering marvel and built much better than what NO had. I think we have the capibility to do the same, it will cost a lot though I am sure.

[ai4ep]

Why not just build new dikes on the dry side os the current dikes, but the new ones be thicker and higher ? Then...when and IF the original dikes fail, the newer ones (maybe) can withstand the pressure of the water.

On the inside of the new dikes could be some of the B S you hear on hf and on the internet. Nothing could get through some of that.

[N7YS]

How about another ring or two of levees inside the outside levee. Designed to be near full of water, have water pressure working for you. Impermiable slurry wall in center of the levees, like we put in the Sacremento River levee. You dig a really deep trench with a 50' boom on an excavator (or 75', that's a trick in itself), mix the spoils with a sack of cement and bentonite, pump it back in the far end of the trench as you dig. Keep the hole full with drilling mud type mix with low water loss properties. Makes sort-of hard back fill, impermiable with the bentonite. Have 3 levees together like that and might hold a lot of storm. BUT DON'T REBUIILD A CITY UNDER SEA LEVEL!
N7YS

[KE7DFP]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Oct. 11 2005,14:26)]Well if I remember correctly the Dikes were rebuilt after the 53 break. #From what I understand they are getting older and work needs to be done which is to be expected as they age. #However they are still an engineering marvel and built much better than what NO had. I think we have the capibility to do the same, it will cost a lot though I am sure.
The Netherlands is a completely different situation. #It is not a river delta, and the lands behind the dike were reclaimed a bit at a time. #The substrata is not sinking, and much stabler than the NO area. #If Private enterprise does not want to build there, it's a bad idea. #If private firms want to build there, fine. #There is no reason for the whole country to prop up something that can't pay for itself. As far as public money for defense or NO. #NO is welfare for a few. #Defense is something we all use.

[W8EFA]

Yes you are right DFP. #The Netherlands are not the same - their Levee has been identified as one of the Seven wonders of the modern world.

As usual you absolutely don't know what you are talking about and as usual flat out wrong once again. The Netherlands are on a river delta and it's land mass is still sinking. #Just like New Orleans. The difference is the Land mass is about 100 times bigger ( a nation as opposed to a city) and the Levees about 100 times stronger than what was built in New Orleans. #


Quote[/b] ]North Sea Protection Works (Netherlands)
Unique in the world, this vast and complex system of dams, floodgates, storm surge barriers and other engineered works literally allows the Netherlands to exist. For centuries, the people of the Netherlands have repeatedly attempted to push back the sea -- only to watch merciless storm surges flood their efforts, since the nation sits below sea level and its land mass is still sinking. The North Sea Protection Works consists of two monumental steps the Dutch took to win their struggle to hold back the sea. Step One -- a 19-mile-long enclosure dam built between 1927 and 1932. The immense dike, 100 yards thick at the waterline, collars the neck of the estuary once known as the Zuiderzee. Step Two was the Delta Project to control the treacherous area where the mouths of the Meuse and Rhine Rivers break into a delta. The crowning touch was the Eastern Schelde Barrier, a two-mile barrier of tell gates slung between massive concrete piers. The gates fall only when storm-waters threaten. The North Sea Protection Works exemplifies humanity's ability to exist side-by-side with the forces of nature.

Seven wonders of the modern world (http://www.ce.memphis.edu/1101/interesting_stuff/7wonders.html)

DFP - you have absolutely no credibility anymore. #I have caught you about 10 times now posting made up "facts" that can be proven as being totally incorrect.

And by the way your Avatar of the seal clubbing is totally reprehensible and should be removed. #Fine role model for any young hams on QRZ.

[ai4ep]

DFP...just remember...never ask any questions.

hee hee hee http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

AI4EP

[kf6rdn]

Quote[/b] (ab8ma @ Oct. 11 2005,12:59)]You know, up hear in the North we are about to enter that time where we will be up to our plateau in leaves. Instead of burning them, why don't we ship them all down to replace the leaves where they are most needed?

Oh, you meant levees.

Nevermind.
Silly person, not leaves!
Levy's! You know that nice Jewish family up the street, I think he does a radio program or something.