Historical Radio Location in Peril [Archive]

N9WIV

04-19-2002, 06:54 PM

If the past means nothing, neither does the future…

An era is about to end at the University of Cincinnati. #Since 1924, two 80 foot towers have stood atop Swift Hall as a symbol of radio and its rich history. #Still sturdy and stable, the University of Cincinnati Amateur Radio Club (UCARC, club call W8YX) has made the penthouse location on Swift Hall its home since the building was built with the towers purposely being part of its structure. #However, the current building renovation plans call for destruction of the towers and removal of the club from the penthouse. #The architects have no desire to negotiate about the meaning of the history and usefulness of the current club location, which will now be described.

During times of crisis, such as large floods, or other events, the club has operated as a communications center for the city. #In addition to service, a great deal of experimentation has occurred from the Swift Hall location and towers. #The first voice contact with an airplane in the Cincinnati area was made by past club researchers. #Additionally, our logs show that experimentation in the development of the mode known as FM occurred at the University of Cincinnati as well, again by the club. #To compliment this rich history, the club still possesses a vintage setup which was purchased new in the early 1950’s. #This consists of a Collins 75A-3 Receiver, and a Collins KW-1 Transmitter. #However, it is impossible to operate or repair this gear in the location we’ve been temporarily given.

One would think that such a valuable part of history would be important to the University, however this is simply not the case. #Unfortunately, the future of Amateur Radio doesn’t look the same as it used to, but the equipment and experience contained in history would certainly be appealing to many people. #College is an excellent place to promote and find the Hams of the future, as some of the club members are seeking new licenses, or have had their interest revived as a result of the club. #Additionally, for hams who cannot afford or use equipment due to space restrictions, this type of location is perfect to open the doors to the world.

If the campus architects have their way to “pretty” the campus during the renovation of Swift Hall, this treasure will become scrap metal and a room for “mechanical equipment stuff.” #Not a very noble destiny for a room which could once reach the world, aid the community, and promote the pursuit of knowledge for almost 80 years. #Once this location is lost, the hope of gaining a suitable location on campus will be almost certainly gone.

Please, if you so feel inclined to voice your opinions on this matter, the contact information below. #Long live the spirit and goodwill of Amateur Radio.

73 de W8YX

University of Cincinnati Contact Information:

Board of Trustees # (513) 556-3233
Public Relations # #(513) 556-3001 # greg.hand@uc.edu
Vice President’s Office (Student Affairs) # #(513) 556-4119 # Mitchel.Livingston@UC.Edu

aa1mn

04-24-2002, 05:15 PM

History is bunk.

[B]To know the past is of no consequence for it has already happened and nothing can be done to change it; but to know the future could make one a God for it is forever unfolding and is ready to be shaped and changed.

[B]Those who lament the changes to come are destined to obscurity for they will not have the ability to prosper and survive; those who embrace the future and the changes it bring will flurish and thrive for it is only they who will have the ability to shape this future to their own needs and desires.

The future holds endless promises for those who seek them out and take advantage of them, let us hope there are many such people like this amongst the amateur radio community.

[b]73's

Chuck
[B]AA1MN[B][B]

KF7CG

04-24-2002, 05:44 PM

History is not Bunk! #It may, in some cases be irrelevant. #To have no history is to know no future.

Ham Radio is irrelevant, it serves no purpose that can't be better, more efficiently, more competently, more economically, and more safely provided by commercial communications facillities. #That is often the bias of administrators and community leaders.

In this day of media moments and public relations pressure anything done quietly and without fanfare doesn't exist. #I suggest that the Amateurs of Cincinatti unit a drop communications support for one, maybe two of the large local events to publicize the dropping of the towers. #Nothing will happen until something happens that impacts a large section of the populace in a manner that they won't forget.

Since we are Amateurs we are the cheapest communications availabe, and anymore anything is only worth what you pay for it, and sometimes what you save by not paying for it. #Our services have been free for the asking so long that we no longer have value.

kb1flr

04-24-2002, 05:55 PM

Perhaps you should stress the Public Service benefits of the towers and station. In the light of recent events, that will have a greater impact than the historical pedigree of the site.

73 de KB1FLR, Rick

ab8lq

04-24-2002, 05:56 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (aa1mn @ April 24 2002,10:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[b]History is bunk.

[B]To know the past is of no consequence for it has already happened and nothing can be done to change it;[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
-- George Santayana

Whether or not this particular piece of history need saving, I don't know. (I encourage the author to let us know what is going to be done with the location.)

But ignoring history and calling it 'bunk' is just as near sighted as not looking to the future. The future is built on the past, and if you ignore the past, you have to start back at the beginning.

Sean.
www.qsl.net/ab8lq

aa1mn

04-24-2002, 06:02 PM

To ab8lq,

"Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it."

Rubbish.

If it were the case that we learn from history there never would have been WWII following WWI. Or will you say that WWII never happened.

Accept the fact, the only CONSTANT is CHANGE.

History is bunk. Those who deny this are bunk too.

AA1MN

nf7r

04-24-2002, 06:31 PM

The sophomoric sincerity of the "history is bunk" post #notwithstanding, time does have a tendency to march on...look at the railroad's conversion from steam to diesel electric for a start. On the other hand, as a former naval 1200PSI steam propulsion engineer, I sure liked the conversion to gas turbine!
# It IS truely a shame, however, when the past is treated with contempt and ignorance by the "visionaries" of the future, as they unknowingly waiting their turn to be "history" themselves.
# It's gonna happen to you, Chuck! Maybe it already has. You are going to go from embracing the future to being a member of the past, whether you want to or not, and when you least expect it. It would be nice if when that happens you can at least be treated with some dignity and respect. Of course, you'll probably be treated the same way you've treated your history...as "bunk".
# W8YX, have you tried getting the building and towers designated as a "historic" structure?
# Best of luck, and 73!
Don "Bunky" DeCaria
NF7R

kc8apf

04-24-2002, 06:35 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ab8lq @ April 24 2002,10:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (aa1mn @ April 24 2002,10:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[b]History is bunk.

[B]To know the past is of no consequence for it has already happened and nothing can be done to change it;[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
-- George Santayana

Whether or not this particular piece of history need saving, I don't know. (I encourage the author to let us know what is going to be done with the location.)

But ignoring history and calling it 'bunk' is just as near sighted as not looking to the future. The future is built on the past, and if you ignore the past, you have to start back at the beginning.

Sean.
www.qsl.net/ab8lq[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Well, i am the current president of this club, so I guess I will comment.

The location is being used for, and yes this is a real quote, "mechanical equipment stuff". The university architects nor anyone else have been able to tell us what that means exactly, but our best guess is that they are going to relocate the electrical and heat controls and such to our past location. Although, this does not make much sense as it is the top floor of the building.

As for the towers, they are to be removed in pieces and cashed in for scrap metal.

Also, while we do have a temporary location (a previous dorm room with coax running through the window) for now, the university has yet to present us with any possible longterm locations. They have had at least 6 months since they told us we were being kicked out to find a location, and other groups affected by these campus renovations had a longterm location already determined before they were moved to a temporary location.

Rick

kc8apf

04-24-2002, 06:37 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (nf7r @ April 24 2002,11:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The sophomoric sincerity of the "history is bunk" post notwithstanding, time does have a tendency to march on...look at the railroad's conversion from steam to diesel electric for a start. On the other hand, as a former naval 1200PSI steam propulsion engineer, I sure liked the conversion to gas turbine!
It IS truely a shame, however, when the past is treated with contempt and ignorance by the "visionaries" of the future, as they unknowingly waiting their turn to be "history" themselves.
It's gonna happen to you, Chuck! Maybe it already has. You are going to go from embracing the future to being a member of the past, whether you want to or not, and when you least expect it. It would be nice if when that happens you can at least be treated with some dignity and respect. Of course, you'll probably be treated the same way you've treated your history...as "bunk".
W8YX, have you tried getting the building and towers designated as a "historic" structure?
Best of luck, and 73!
Don "Bunky" DeCaria
NF7R[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Cincinnati does not have a penalty for destroying a building on the historic registrar. They only have a benefit, which the university does not see as being worth it.

Chris

04-24-2002, 07:48 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (aa1mn @ April 24 2002,10:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">History is bunk.

[B]To know the past is of no consequence for it has already happened and nothing can be done to change it; but to know the future could make one a God for it is forever unfolding and is ready to be shaped and changed.

[B]Those who lament the changes to come are destined to obscurity for they will not have the ability to prosper and survive; those who embrace the future and the changes it bring will flurish and thrive for it is only they who will have the ability to shape this future to their own needs and desires.

The future holds endless promises for those who seek them out and take advantage of them, let us hope there are many such people like this amongst the amateur radio community.

[b]73's

Chuck
[B]AA1MN[B][B][/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Charles,

I can't believe the short sightedness of your post. Do you truely believe that history is bunk? Do you actually think there is no value in learning from those who have gone before us? Gosh, if this is how you think, do you constantly put your hand in the fire because you refuse to remember what happened last time you did it?

Are we to infer that our schools should no longer teach history in an effort to instill the past successes and failures of those who went before us? As hams, we all truely stand on the shoulders of giants. There's not much about what we have today that wasn't initiated in the past and subsequently built upon in the present. I remain completely flabbergasted. . . . . .

Chris (W8CWE)

aa1mn

04-24-2002, 08:13 PM

Yes, Chris, history is bunk.

Change is the only constant. Those that are not able to change, adapt and evolve are destined to stagnate and die. As such, one must look forward and advance not look in the past waste away.

No, Chris, I would not repeatedly stick my hand in a fire. Learning from experience has nothing to do with history.
Reason, judgement and forethought are nothing to do with history either.

It is hoped that amateur radio will look forward and advance and evolve and not become mired in the past.

Chuck (AA1MN)

kc7wgs

04-24-2002, 08:33 PM

Does anyone wasting their time replying to the "History is bunk" moron know what a troll is?

They appear in every news group determined to make idiotic inflamatory statements just to get a rise out of people replying to them. These are people so lacking in any control over their lives that they gain a tremendous amount of satisfaction in seeing how much controversy they can cause and how quickly they can destroy the usefulness of a group. Sorta like the "pile-up cops" and "tuner-uppers".

Your best bet when someone makes a completely stupid comment is to "turn the dial" and ignore it.

I hate wading through the mire that trolls create when most posts here are usually pretty good..

Rick

N8PCA

04-24-2002, 09:04 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kc7wgs @ April 24 2002,13:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Does anyone wasting their time replying to the "History is bunk" moron know what a troll is?

They appear in every news group determined to make idiotic inflamatory statements just to get a rise out of people replying to them. These are people so lacking in any control over their lives that they gain a tremendous amount of satisfaction in seeing how much controversy they can cause and how quickly they can destroy the usefulness of a group. Sorta like the "pile-up cops" and "tuner-uppers".

Your best bet when someone makes a completely stupid comment is to "turn the dial" and ignore it.

I hate wading through the mire that trolls create when most posts here are usually pretty good..

Rick[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Well stated. I did send an email to the university regarding the loss of a historical place. Little by little.. America forgets who (she) or (we) are... what a shame. 73' N8PCA

WA6CAW

04-24-2002, 09:19 PM

Ahhhhhhhh, the non-history buff. People like Stalin, Hitler, and many other very notorious people are probably not recorded accurately in the journals of history. If you think history is accurate, why can’t we record what happened yesterday, or last week with any repetitive accuracy? #So, as to its accuracy, I must agree that there is always some question. #

But to totally ignore history, I must take issue. The very basis of the technology of what we are doing here on the internet, electronics, and radio/TV is the backbone for the road to the future.

Let’s start with the names of people, pardon me, in the past:
1.) Georg S. Ohm
2.) James Watt
3.) Nikola Tesla
4.) Thomas A. Edison
5.) Albert Einstein
6.) Andre-Marie Ampere
7.) Philo T. Farnsworth
8.) Vladimir Zworkin
9.) Alan B. Dumont

If it weren’t for these people, and their dependence on the history of the entrepreneurs before them, we would, most assuredly, be several steps behind in technology from where we are now. Maybe some of these names don't mean anything to you, but you would have to look in history to find out their contributions. What's that? You don't care about their contributions.... Well you will have to re-invent the wheel again.

Then to answer a question like: #Why don’t we have a channel 1 on the TV channel dial?

Don’t you know that the channels set up in 1937 were only seven, and the additional 12 were set aside for any future TV stations? No, that is history, but how could we get ourselves into this predicament? #Well, history would tell…

Lou M.
WA6CAW

N9WIV

04-24-2002, 09:31 PM

Here's a better look at the location. #Again I stress the fact that we aren't being given any alternatives for a usable location, another concern in addition to the historical nature of this location. More pictures are available here: KC8KHL's picture page (http://www.qsl.net/kc8khl/W8YX_01.html)

73

http://www.qsl.net/kc8khl/pics/swift02.jpg

ke4drn

04-24-2002, 10:03 PM

Since the building is very old, 1924 ear, perhaps it is
considered a national landmark or historic building, given the style and construction from that era.

If the building already is 'protected' by some historic
or other program, removing the towers could be a violation and require some red tape to cut before the
towers are removed.

Perhaps the ARRL could help the club with this ?

73 james

NG7Z

04-24-2002, 10:51 PM

I am a building engineer and my job is heavily involved in "mechanical stuff". I'd like to help clarify what "mechanical stuff" means. Some older buildings do not have an infrastructure that supports modern air handling equipment. What usually happens when they are upgraded is that the new air handlers are installed in spaces that are centrally located. The top of a building is sometimes the best place for chillers, cooling towers and the associated pumps and controls. Ducting is usually added to ceiling spaces and some older buildings were already built with some ducting in place. If this building was not already equipped with modern air conditioning equipment, the room for amateur radio equipment at the top is, unfortunately, the best place for the equipment. I don't know how much of an improvement the building is going through but "mechanical stuff", while not normally seen by most people in large buildings, serves to keep everyone comfortable regardless of outside conditions.
Its a shame that this condition has arisen and the rich history of amateur radio at this school has been given such cursory treatment. But they are not alone. Here in Seattle, the Univ of Washington ARC has also been kicked out of its long time location. Once again, at the top of a building and with no regard given to an optional location.
73 to all
Paul NG7Z

04-24-2002, 11:23 PM

It's too bad that University ham clubs are being forced out of their locations. Your friends up I-71 at Ohio State were forced out of Ohio Stadium were they had been for almost 40 years a few years ago.

They had a hell of a setup. A quad at 80 ft, a HUGE longwire that went from the stadium to the power house stack across the street. ATV, satellite, packet, and a repeater were a part of the club.

When they got the boot, all the gear was put in storage until another place could be found.

It could have been worse.

ke4cij

04-24-2002, 11:32 PM

I personally feel that each of us as Amateur Operators should protest this terrible thing. Send emails to those who would destroy what the towers stand for. The addresses have been listed above.

And if you do not know what they stand for, then you should be looking into other hobbies

History is somthing that should never be forgotten.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

KD7OVP

04-24-2002, 11:56 PM

Hey! To everyone that has been posting:

Instead of getting on everyones case and fuming about stuff why don't you guys put together a fund and try and stop the demolition legally on the grounds that its a historical monument!!!! It could be considered that because of the amount of radio history there.

Quick fighting and get with the cause! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

WB9TCO

04-25-2002, 12:15 AM

You all are missing the point. This has nothing to do with history or any other such noble issues. It has to do with the bottom line. The world of Academia is no different. What has the club done for the college lately? Give it fame like a winning football team? Or is it now just a recreation spot for a few students?

Sure, there is some history there, but few outside radio appreciate it. That's just the way it is.

kc6ufe

04-25-2002, 12:23 AM

The prophetic bs in these posts is exactly the reason these things happen. We are so busy arguing amongst ourselves about what the meaning of is is, that reality has passed us by.
All things must pass. George Harrison

N1PFC

04-25-2002, 12:57 AM

I can sympathise with you completely on the possibility of loosing the space for your club.

Having been vice president of WPI Wireless I can completely relate. Staff in the building where the club is located blame the club for just about every electrical problem they can. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif It's come down to the point where we can barely operate during the week without having a professor come up and yell at us. We've told the departments repeatedly to use shielded wires for all their microvoltage measurements, but they don't listen.

As far as the FCC is concerned, we're in compliance. But try telling that to the administration who knows that they get lots of money from firms that pay these professors for their research work. It's a losing battle. It's easier for the administration to stop us from transmitting than to actually get shielded wiring for the meters. There's also a nearby radio station that gets into them sometimes to, but the radio club is still to blame.

At least there's plenty of funny stories floating around of us ruining lots of experiments with animals http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

The ham radio club's space is a 'shared' space at WPI. Plant services tromps through it on the way to the roof (even though there is another door they can just as easily use). So to a certain extent you have to take what they give you, but they should give you something.

There was even an incident once where the club was banned from going onto the roof to even do repairs to the antennas and towers. The club informed the administration that there would be towers falling on students and they quickly changed their tune. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

My suggestion is this:
Make it aparent to the administration of the college that there is a viable student intrest in the club. Show them that there is community support for the club and that you are involved with the college.

You probably will not be able to stop them from demolishing the towers, but you should be able to get space somewhere for your club on or near a rooftop to be able to put up antennas. Even if it is a shared space like WPI Wireless has to deal with, it's better than not having any space at all, which is what you are currently faced with.

Kurt, N1PFC

KI5TD

04-25-2002, 01:19 AM

You should be talking to your local historical preservation group not amateur radio ops who don't even live in your state. #Get in touch with your state historical preservation officer (SHPO), every state has one. #Get in touch with state and local preservation groups. #Good luck. You should also contact the National Trust for Historic Preservation in Washington D.C. You will need to make your case with these folks quickly if you are to stop the demolition. Good luck.

73

Lou Linden
KI5TD

w8jn

04-25-2002, 03:56 AM

i thought the towers were on top of the tuc? #am i looking at the wrong building? #there is massive renovation going on there and unfortunately ham radio aint bobby huggins and it doesnt generate any jack. so unless we can flex a little green on the old red and black, bye bye towers #paul w8jn uc 1971 .. #and on campus daily

n8eha

04-25-2002, 02:58 PM

To: W8YX
De: W8DOZ
I understand completely. The University of Dayton's architects had us in their gunsights too! An architect's first inclination is to simply destroy anything they don't understand. FORTUNATELY for W8DOZ, the University's president is an EE and had a clue! When the dust settled, those same architects had to put us in our own 18X24 room with coaxial cable access to the NEW towers on the roof, new electrical service, fresh paint, and STUDENT ACCESSABLE security locks. (YES, there IS a GOD!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Bottom Line: W8DOZ is a RECRUITING TOOL for technical dweebs. The different Chairs of the School of Engineering still talk about the reaction they get from any given high school ham who sees the Radio Communications Laboratory for the first time. Non- S.O.E. Chairs often bring potential students over on request to see it. These students have usually heard about The Radio Lab through alums or their Alum Assoc. back home. The reaction is almost always the same... WOWWW! Do WE get to USE this!? Have you tried this approach?
73's and Good Luck
Bob, N8EHA
Asst. Trustee for W8DOZ

N8PCA

04-25-2002, 08:35 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kc6ufe @ April 24 2002,17:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The prophetic bs in these posts is exactly the reason these things happen. We are so busy arguing amongst ourselves about what the meaning of is is, that reality has passed us by.
All things must pass. George Harrison[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I don't see any person arguing in these post's. It's a matter of First Amendment Right's. Call it Free Speech. Are forum's not for the purpose of discussion? I't's how we learn thing's. An exchange of information. They're are plenty of other topic's here on QRZ. Perhaps you can find one where other's are not "arguing" or speaking "prophetic bs". Consider the source. And negativity can spread much more easily than friendlyness at times. TNX, N8PCA

WA6CAW

04-26-2002, 12:13 AM

What hapened to our "history is bunk" person?

I know it was slightly off the topic, but I was looking forward to a good joust with that one.....

Oh well, there did not seem to be too many agreeing with that point of view.

Darn, can't lose them all.

73,
Lou M.
WA6CAW

N8PCA

04-26-2002, 01:24 AM

Yes, we are a bit off topic but I dont understand why some Hams feel the need to belittle other Hams. It has no place here. Seems to me that a person who belittles others has very low self esteem and confidence in them selves. As for history.. the post regarding history as "unimportant" was pure balogna.

wa6euz

04-26-2002, 02:01 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N9WIV @ April 19 2002,11:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If the past means nothing, neither does the future…

An era is about to end at the University of Cincinnati. #Since 1924, two 80 foot towers have stood atop Swift Hall as a symbol of radio and its rich history. #Still sturdy and stable, the University of Cincinnati Amateur Radio Club (UCARC, club call W8YX) has made the penthouse location on Swift Hall its home since the building was built with the towers purposely being part of its structure. #However, the current building renovation plans call for destruction of the towers and removal of the club from the penthouse. #The architects have no desire to negotiate about the meaning of the history and usefulness of the current club location, which will now be described.

During times of crisis, such as large floods, or other events, the club has operated as a communications center for the city. #In addition to service, a great deal of experimentation has occurred from the Swift Hall location and towers. #The first voice contact with an airplane in the Cincinnati area was made by past club researchers. #Additionally, our logs show that experimentation in the development of the mode known as FM occurred at the University of Cincinnati as well, again by the club. #To compliment this rich history, the club still possesses a vintage setup which was purchased new in the early 1950’s. #This consists of a Collins 75A-3 Receiver, and a Collins KW-1 Transmitter. #However, it is impossible to operate or repair this gear in the location we’ve been temporarily given.

One would think that such a valuable part of history would be important to the University, however this is simply not the case. #Unfortunately, the future of Amateur Radio doesn’t look the same as it used to, but the equipment and experience contained in history would certainly be appealing to many people. #College is an excellent place to promote and find the Hams of the future, as some of the club members are seeking new licenses, or have had their interest revived as a result of the club. #Additionally, for hams who cannot afford or use equipment due to space restrictions, this type of location is perfect to open the doors to the world.

If the campus architects have their way to “pretty” the campus during the renovation of Swift Hall, this treasure will become scrap metal and a room for “mechanical equipment stuff.” #Not a very noble destiny for a room which could once reach the world, aid the community, and promote the pursuit of knowledge for almost 80 years. #Once this location is lost, the hope of gaining a suitable location on campus will be almost certainly gone.

Please, if you so feel inclined to voice your opinions on this matter, the contact information below. #Long live the spirit and goodwill of Amateur Radio.

73 de W8YX

University of Cincinnati Contact Information:

Board of Trustees # (513) 556-3233
Public Relations # #(513) 556-3001 # greg.hand@uc.edu
Vice President’s Office (Student Affairs) # #(513) 556-4119 # Mitchel.Livingston@UC.Edu[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
If we do not save some of our history younger generations will never know what came before them.
I hate to see the site go. The architects work for the
university so the university should call the "shots".

Cant you folks back there do anything?

Paul WA6EUZ

04-26-2002, 02:08 AM

This is not about history, nostalgia, land mark, on and on. It is about old junk, plain and simple. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif .

Many want to trivialize the issue by claiming all of the above. Some by nature are attached to junk from the pass.

What possible value can we gain from keeping the 2 old towers? Yes, in its days it was this and that, it did this and that. But that time had passed. This much we know from this point on: 1- It will be an eye sore with the new surrounding. 2- Possible hazard from high winds and harsh weather, exposing the school to potential liability of all sorts. 3- We can get a few dollars from salvage value and the metal recycled into something usefull.

For those of you who claimed to learn something from the history of your old pair of underwears.....its BUNK. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

73 de KC6VLG

04-26-2002, 02:30 AM

OH....BTW

For those who claim we learn from history:

How come people keep on playing the lottery when they lost time after time? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

w8qf

04-26-2002, 02:41 AM

I can only imagin Mr.Parshley AA1MN must be very lonley in his world of ignorance and desprate for attention.He certanly is getting it here.With out history we have people like Clinton who think the Constitution is what you do in the bathroom.I am familiar with the history of the club station and hope it's location can some how be preserved.Dave AE8U

kc8apf

04-26-2002, 03:22 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (john english @ April 25 2002,19:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This is not about history, #nostalgia, #land mark, #on and on. It is about old junk, plain and simple. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif .

Many want to trivialize the issue by claiming all of the above. Some by nature are attached to junk from the pass.

What possible value can we gain from keeping the 2 old towers? Yes, in its days it was this and that, it did this and that. But that time had passed. This much we know from this point on: 1- It will be an eye sore with the new surrounding. 2- Possible hazard from high winds and harsh weather, exposing the school to potential liability of all sorts. 3- We can get a few dollars from salvage value and the metal recycled into something usefull.

For those of you who claimed to learn something from the history of your old pair of underwears.....its BUNK. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

73 de KC6VLG[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Actually, nothing is wrong with these towers. They have been kept up well, are not rusting, and are completely stable.

They are not a liability issue (although they try to claim having an antenna up is) and they were used up until the point we were kicked out.

The towers were a valuable asset to our club, and the only reason that changed is because of our removal.

kc9bcy

04-26-2002, 04:45 AM

Hey, remember people, all this stuff down here, is only temporary.... none of it will last, it's good to move onward, forward, and keep looing upward... progress will come, hey, how do you expect subspace and gravity wave communications to take hold? when we run out of places to put antennas, we'll design better ones that won't be so darn big!

n8vw

04-26-2002, 12:41 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (davej @ April 24 2002,20:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I can only imagin Mr.Parshley AA1MN must be very lonley in his world of ignorance and desprate for attention.He certanly is getting it here.With out history we have people like Clinton who think the Constitution is what you do in the bathroom.I am familiar with the history of the club station and hope it's location can some how be preserved.Dave AE8U[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Or George Bush Jr. who thinks that because he is president everybody should agree with him...

wb9gkz

04-26-2002, 01:11 PM

My advice:

1) Take a multitude of digital pictures of the historic towers and equipment.

2) Assemble a website showing the nice pictures of the vintage stuff.

3) Auction-off the KW-1 and associated antique goodies
on eBay.

4) Use funds to buy cellphones for all club-members to use during emergencies. Keep rest of funds in escrow for
beer and social events.

5) Chill out.

w6th

04-26-2002, 03:53 PM

The railroad used Morse code and we still had horses for transportation, we now have automobiles. #We now have Television, Radio and even cell phones to communicate and don't forget the internet and computers. Ham radio is obsolete and of the past and is now a hobby. The college is for professionals and to teach such. #By lowering the class of amateur radio and now calling it a hobby, I say rid of the towers and lets get on with progress. I suggest the college to celebrate one day each and every year by taking a day off in rememberance of the towers, such as we do on Washington's and Lincoln's birthday. Ta ta.

aa1mn

04-26-2002, 10:56 PM

Good Gawd, ya all...looks like I'll never learn.

N8PCA

04-27-2002, 01:30 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (john english @ April 25 2002,19:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">OH....BTW

For those who claim we learn from history:

How come people keep on playing the lottery when they lost time after time? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Its BUNK that you dont believe that history is important. Period. I am so sorry that you believe this. As for the lottery... you would think that the people of the United States SHOULD be OUTRAGED to pay a tax for wich no Constitutional proof exists. On top of that... the fool in front of you at the gas station or the party store is all too happy to fork out the cash for a lottery that they are so unlikely to win. It is, in my opinion, no more than a voluntary tax. Stop feeding the legalized exstortionists.

N8PCA

04-27-2002, 01:47 AM

Wow. I am almost at a loss for words. The post's from W6TH and WB9GKZ are disgusting. America.. love it or leave. Our history is who we are.

aa4pc

04-27-2002, 02:10 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (aa1mn @ April 24 2002,11:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"If it were the case that we learn from history there never would have been WWII following WWI. #Or will you say that WWII never happened."[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Had you remembered history, you would know that WW I was touched off by the assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand by a Serbian in Sarajevo on July 28, 1914. (Serbians just can't seem to learn from history either, they're still fighting, they can't tell you why, they just still fight.)

WW II was precipitated by the megalomaniacal ambitions of Adolph Hitler for world domination and the extermination of all races except the supposedly 'pure Aryan' race.

Funny, these two wars started for different reasons. There would have been a Second World War, regardless of the short memory of the observer. And an obscure WW I corporal named Adolph made sure of that.

Yes, let's forget history. Let us step right into the abyss and into the dark and misty realm of the unknown because "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it." Like the Serbo-Croats have been doing since 1914.

We can ignore the accomplishments of those before us, since they didn't make any of the technology we have now possible. The handy talkie was developed in parallel by an American Ham and a Canadian Ham both trying to supply portable radios to the military in the field. Cellular telephones are an outgrowth of that as well as other Ham innovations. Most of these are not credited to the Hams that developed them because the world forgets history.

I'll stick to history; it's more satisfying than ignorance.

Just my honest opinion.

Jack
W4HTX

N5VRZ

04-27-2002, 03:07 AM

Save the towers. Don't confuse this landmark, civic land use issue with the importance of history. The only landmark that isn't worth preserving is the one nobody cares about, and these towers don't appear to fall into that category. (but if they do scrap them, I think the idea of using the proceeds for a beer fund is outstanding!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Seriously, though, study mankind's history (all versions, mind you) and remember why things in the past happened in the way they did. In that manner, the next time there are hard economical and social times, and a leader emerges who is strong, controlling, and makes it fashionable to hate others for whatever reason, there might be enough people to say "no" to racism / fascism. In this case, the idea here is for history to NOT repeat itself, right?

Great discussion!
73 de N5VRZ
David

guypd

04-27-2002, 10:59 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (aa1mn @ April 24 2002,13:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If it were the case that we learn from history there never would have been WWII following WWI. #Or will you say that WWII never happened.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
The causes of WWI and WWII were for totally different reasons. That is where knowing history comes in.

WWII was an oppressed nation (Germany) attempting to get out of a major depression, but being lead my a maniac (Hitler). Knowing history will hopefully allow the world to not allow something like that to happen, while all the other countries sit back and not get involved.

hartdaniel

04-27-2002, 01:48 PM

I should be surprised, but im not.

kg6amw

04-27-2002, 03:02 PM

When your on government property, you really shouldn't count on anything being permanent. #Decisions are made by one group today and another tomorrow. #Take what you can from the existing site and locate it to an area less in demand or onto private property. #With regards to ham radio, the technology may no longer be on the #frontier of discovery, but the service it provides during emergencies and public events will always be in vogue. #Be careful what you write on these websites, or your ignorance will be noticed by everyone. #Merrill

w4nek

04-28-2002, 12:56 AM

History repeats it's self. #All one has to do is to look at World War I (the war to end all wars) and was repeated as WWII. #We may have a WWIII but time will tell. #

The president of the university needs to take stock of what he has and what might happen in his community as well as what the history of the room has been used for in research.
73
W4NEK

KB9WVK

04-28-2002, 02:25 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (aa1mn @ April 24 2002,13:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, Chris, history is bunk.

Change is the only constant. #Those that are not able to change, adapt and evolve are destined to stagnate and die. #As such, one must look forward and advance not look in the past waste away.

No, Chris, I would not repeatedly stick my hand in a fire. Learning from experience has nothing to do with history.
Reason, judgement and forethought are nothing to do with history either.

It is hoped that amateur radio will look forward and advance and evolve and not become mired in the past.

Chuck (AA1MN)[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Chuck,

First I must say that your usage of the noun "bunk" has me somewhat perplexed. #I am neither sure what you aim to accomplish with such non specific hyperbole nor do I believe for a moment that your quasilogic is sound.

Reason, judgement, and forethought keep your hand out of the fire - but not history? #Reason is but a child of comprehension with comprehension being a child of belief. #Ultimately what you believe is by necessity a product of what you have experienced. #This individual experience we conveniently refer to as your history. #Your own logic (used rather loosely of course) has heaped your reason in with the bunk.

Clearly judgement, in the most simple terms, is the intellectual process of forming an opinion by way of discernement and comparison. #Comparison of what? #Of what you know, of course. #What you know has necessarily come prior to the moment of discernement and must therefore be referred to as knowledge kept for the purpose of studying character and significance. #Again, history. #So too judgement must be abandoned in your growing "bunk" heap.

Forethought, to think or plan out in advance. #This one is easy. #To think about what? #To plan what? #The fire, as it were, is not a part of my documented experience (history) so there really isn't anything to contemplate beforehand. #Not unless experience is collected and documented. #I put a stick in the fire and it ignites and burns. #Hmmm . . . maybe not a good plan to put the hand in there. #Forethought has its foundation in precedent. #Sadly, though, your logic again places a perfectly legitimate concept in with the bunk.

In conclusion I would like to say that history in its broadest definition involves the collected and largely written record of the interpretation of that which has preceded us. #Its ability to be of some use to the future is dependent on its users ability to critically analyze the material at hand. #Because history has oftentimes been misused, misinterpreted, and outright ignored does not speak to its usefullness in determining the future. #

By the way Chuck . . .are you still using a spark gap transmitter?

Best 73 to all,

KB9WVK

ke4qdm

04-28-2002, 12:27 PM

Define and understand the problem -- come up with a solution -- and execute!!!

Problem: They are going to destroy History.

Understand: First, History is not four walls and stuff. #Although that is part of history. #History is the who, what, where, when and why. #History is summed up by the ideas, the memories, the stuff (lack of better term), the places, the passions, the success and failures, of those who have gone before us. #

Solution: #You may not be able to save the place (the penthouse), but you can save the rest. #And by all means find a way to save those towers! #As for the rest, take pictures, research what happened in the past and get this all down on paper for the world to see. #Record the ideas, thoughts, feelings, success and failures of those who have gone before you. #You may lose the building, but you can never lose history if you record it properly.

Execute: #Well that's up to you, and anybody else who might have information that could be helpful.

Problem: They are taking away the facilities needed to operate.

Understand: #Many people use the building that you are housed in and progress often means change. #I wish it weren't so, but who knows maybe the cure for some terrible disease will be furthered because of this progress? #People have different oppinions, and we are often little fish in a big sea.

Soultion: #Don't wait for the administration to tell you were you can go. #You might not like the answer. #Begin looking for a location that would be ideal. #Research the area, write a convincing argument why this location would be best for the school, for you and for the community with respect to the role of amateur radio. #My experiece has shown me that those in-charge do not want to hear about your problem, they want to know what the solutions are. #Give them the solution.

Execution: Once again is up to you, and will require hard work. #But that's what we Amateur Radio operators are best at, solving problems and finding solutions where none exist.

God Bless,
David, KE4QDM

kf6vbr

04-29-2002, 03:22 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KF7CG @ April 24 2002,10:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ham Radio is irrelevant, it serves no purpose that can't be better, more efficiently, more competently, more economically, and more safely provided by commercial communications facillities. #That is often the bias of administrators and community leaders.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

HAM radio is not irrelevant. It is far from it.
I live out in the Southern California desert. Here on the "left cost" we have all the gadgets with all the whistles. This past week the phone system went down in the 909 area code. Not all phones it seems but many in the Riverside County Hemet area. The cell phones, home phones, and pagers were off line because the phone system in that area was out.. ALL DAY out. Yet with the few repeaters in the area HAM radio operators were not without communication. I think it is a big mistake for people to believe with all this technology that we no longer have uses for Amateur radio. Amateur radio is serving a very important niche in today's world as it did back in the 40's when Ham radio operators were enlisted as radio operators in the military.

HAM operators were in the background in the New York 9/11 horror. They were working for weeks after. They have consistently been in service in emergency radio operations. The earthquake in Washington State, the floods in Texas, They are a valuable service to the American People. Amateur Radio Operators were the ones the US Weather service asked to report on the rogue Hurricane that was in the golf several years ago. HAM radio operators tracked the hurricane and let the US weather service know where it was. With all the technology it sometimes takes a person on the ground to give the most accurate account of what is going on AND WE DO SO AS VOLUNTEERS.

The president of the United States has mentioned the importance of the Emergency Services that Amateur Radio has given to the citizens of the US. The Attorney General has also made mention to the services that ARES/RACES have provided….. AMATEUR RADIO is NOT irrelevant.

I am sorry to here you say that. You must certainly believe it. I hope you can see that the value is far greater than any monetary value that can be place upon it. Most Amateur Radio Emergency Service Volunteers are the finest people you might want to know. They have a deep-seated desire to help others and the care…. deeply care. Most of the disasters in the USA that have had Amateur Radio Operators working in the background helping wherever they are needed. Quietly but very conscientiously they help protect live and property.

Here in the desert a couple of boys were sent to Central America to pick up a boat, a sailboat. Their parents were concerned when the boys did not check in on their day appointed. They contacted an Amateur Radio Operator in the area. Actually the lady was a friend of the family, and she knew the boys - they were reliable - so believing something was wrong she first made contract on the marine band to some people in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico where the boys were suppose to be. They were able to talk to someone who saw them several days earlier. Their radio did not work and they felt when they got on the open sea that they could make contact home. This Amateur Radio Operator got on her HF rig and put out a call to those in the Pacific. Sometime later contact was made the boys not only had radio problems but the ship was dead in the water. The Amateur Radio Operator in the Pacific took the report and kept an open eye. Several days later they found the sailboat talked to the boys and relayed a message back home.

I myself got involved in RACES when one Thanksgiving (only a few years ago) I was monitoring my 2-meter radio when a call went out for Emergency help. I picked up the call and asked how could I help. They guy said that they were dune buggying and some guy drunk came down the hill and crashed in the their car giving a kid in the back a concussion. He had a Cell phone but it didn't work, He gave me his GPS co-ordinates. I called the CHP ( California Highway Patrol). They sent out an Airplane and confirmed the call and then sent in help.

If you feel that Amateur radio is boring or not relevant maybe you should ask for the nearest Emergency Radio Services group in your area. R.A.C.E.S. is defined under Federal Statute. I am sure you know this because it is in the book and a question on the Exams to be an Amateur Radio Operator.

Amateur radio is a Hobby, a Sport, a Science, and very relevant today.

Check It Out!

Kf6vbr
Rick Bonney
R.A.C.E.S. EC
Banning, California USA

04-29-2002, 03:02 PM

Time to get creative.

Do some research into the towers and find out who paid for them, if the club owns them threaten to sue the Univ. for the replacement cost. (A different location may need taller, more expensive towers to maintain the present operating condititons).

Find out if any Federal funds have been used in the past for the equipment or club space. The Univ. may have to pay these back if the club is shut down. (This has been used in the past to stop airport closings).

Any other suggestions to help this club?

N9WIV

04-29-2002, 05:30 PM

The plot thickens....

Recent discoveries have brought us to the information that THE R.L. Drake, not only graduated from the U.C. College of Engineering, but he also was a part of our club at one time. #His senior thesis involved building a radio transmitter and receiver along with other club members in the 1930's. #We were previously unaware of this significant information.. Hopefully we can find a yearbook photo, or something of the like.

73,
N9WIV

KB9WKR

04-29-2002, 11:01 PM

I am sorry to read about the radio towers in Ohio. I would suggest trying to get a live radio interview with the WLW morning host to describe this situation. #The problem is really facing all of amateur radio. #A radio club located in the Memorial Union Building at Indiana University is unknown even to those who work in this large facility. #I never visited the club while I was a student, but I wish that I had looked into it. #K9IU operates unknown to almost everyone. #Ham radio is a hard sell these days. We must face the fact that most hams are between 40 and dead. Organizations such as the Masons, K of C and other fraternal organizations are in the same boat.

Bill- KB9WKR

kg5q

05-01-2002, 04:18 AM

I sent a message to the people instructed in the original post and cc'ed the guy who originally posted it N9WIV and did not hear anything from anyone except one guy who sent me a " I have no idea what you are talking about email" And this guy who sounds like he sent me a policician type, "no problem here but we are taking corrective action to affect a middle east peace solution answer" #I think the guys in charge cant wait to knock the whole thing down and be on with the next thing and that will be the successful solution.

Here is the happy gram from on high:

---------------------------------------------------

Thank you so much for your interest in the Amateur Radio Club at the
University of Cincinnati. #As you are aware, we are engaged in major
construction projects on the campus that, to my understanding, necessitated
a different location for the tower and station. #Consistent with that, the
location is yet to be determined, and this matter is being handled by the
Architect's Office. #More specifically, Mark Petullo is trying to find a
positive resolution for this matter, and I know he has had many
conversations with interested parties. #Like you, I am hopeful this will
come to a successful conclusion.

Mitchel D. Livingston
Vice President for Student Affairs & Services
University of Cincinnati
-------------------------------------------------------------

W9IND

05-02-2002, 07:20 AM

Here's an idea that might work better than any: Have you considered taking your case to the news media?

As a longtime journalist, I can tell you that stories like these often have plenty of appeal if you pitch them correctly. And once the story hits the front page -- or the 5 o'clock news -- the pressure increases massively on the ivory-tower types who want to make their decisions quietly and quickly.

Stress the history behind the site. Stress the public service that has occurred there over the years. Stress the recreational value to students. Talk about the ignominious end -- how these tall towers could get torn down and melted down. Above all, keep it simple -- don't get caught up in trying to explain the complexities of amateur radio.

And don't speak in ham jargon. Say things like, "It's a historic ham radio site where the first contact with an airplane was made. It has two 80-foot towers and a radio room for our college radio club, but the administration wants to kick us out of the room -- which our club has used since (whenever) -- and turn the towers into scrap metal," etc. Don't say, "Well, right now it's set up for HF operation, and we can operate on 10 through 80 meters on both CW and phone, but we'd really like to install a 2-meter repeater because a lot of us are into VHF, not to mention EME ..." #

This could be a great human interest story ... journalists love tales about the little guy fighting the system. And every newspaper and TV station has to "feed the beast," as the saying goes (in other words, keep producing stories to fill the newspaper or newscast).

Try hitting up your local newspapers -- ask to speak to a city editor or a managing editor. Ask for the assignment editors at your local TV stations. It's okay to e-mail the media or leave a message on voice mail, but don't depend on it. If you don't hear back from them within a couple of days, pick up the phone and try to persist until you reach a human being. And not just any human being -- don't settle for the half-hearted "I can take a message" subordinates who obviously aren't interested and have no authority anyway. Stay with it, politely but firmly, until you at least reach someone who has the power to assign the story or sounds like he's paying attention. But don't badger an editor if it's obvious that he/she is simply not interested. There are other news media in town. (And if you really want to sound savvy and considerate, once you reach someone in a position of authority, begin the conversation by saying, "Hi, are you on deadline?" If the person says no, then hold forth, but if he/she is up against a tight deadline, you probably won't get a fair hearing-out anyway. And you'll simply be an annoyance to get rid of ASAP.)

This is an important task, requiring a person who can organize his thoughts on the spot, speak proper English and get to the point without a lot of fanfare. So be honest -- if you're a person who tends to ramble a bit, or who says things like, "I don't know nothin'" and "I could have went," then by all means, pick someone who can state your case better. And don't be afraid to try the "six degrees of separation" approach -- if you know somebody who knows a reporter on the staff, see if you can contact that person directly and pitch the story to him/her first.

Even if only one newspaper or TV station gets interested in the cause, it can turn the tables quickly. You'd be amazed at how little publicity many bureaucrats (including college administrators) can stomach. And with any luck, you'll soon get the chance to find out.

KB8ANY

05-07-2002, 04:10 PM

As an undergraduate student at U.C. from 1966 to 1971 I saw the two towers with no antenna on them for most of the time I was there. I was a SWL back then, and had learned about the towers from my father, who had been a member of the U.C. club years before.

As a graduate student at U.C. from 74 to 86 I went to the posted club meeting site several times because I was interested in getting my ticket. Every time I found no meeting, and no posted notice about why it had been cancelled, or postponed, or whatever. After a few times and a few unanswered 'phone calls (i.e., from my office in Building A-10) I stopped trying.

Please refresh my memory: when, in the past 30 years, has the U.C. club ever transmitted emergency traffic?

On the other hand, the station at the affiliated Ohio College of Applied Science is apparently active - while visiting there up until two years ago I saw students and professors attend meetings. Also, their movable antennas always seem to be pointed in different positions every time I drive past.

I don't like the idea of taking down the towers, but I can sure understand why the administration doesn't want to bear the cost of moving or replacing them. Given the absence of other evidence, previous behavior is the best clue to expected future behavior.

Paul Flaugher, kb8any