Amateur Radio Antenna "CC&R Bill"

[KC9ECI]

There's never been a better time to get this done, now that amateur radio is getting some good media exposure due to the hurricanes. #Drop a note to your representatives and voice your support.

Quote[/b] ]NEWINGTON, CT, Sep 23, 2005--New York Congressman Steve Israel has reintroduced legislation that could make it easier for radio amateurs living in communities with deed covenants, conditions and restrictions (CC&Rs) to erect suitable antennas. Arkansas Congressman Mike Ross, WD5DVR, signed aboard as an original cosponsor of the "Amateur Radio Emergency Communications Consistency Act" (HR 3876). ARRL Hudson Division Director Frank Fallon, N2FF, who attended Israel's public announcement of the bill September 19 on Long Island, pointed out the Amateur Radio volunteers always fill the gap after other communication systems fail in an emergency or disaster. He notes the bill's introduction comes in the immediate aftermath of positive media coverage of Amateur Radio's response to the Hurricane Katrina disaster.

Read the rest of the story at ARRL.ORG (http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2005/09/23/7/?nc=1)

Text of the Bill:
Quote[/b] ]109th CONGRESS

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

September 22, 2005

H.R. 3876.

A bill to provide that private land use rules be treated as State or local regulation for purposes of certain Federal Communications Commission regulations; to the Committee on Energy and Commerce.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the 'Amateur Radio Emergency Communications Consistency Act of 2003'.

SEC. 2. TREATMENT OF PRIVATE LAND USE RULES AS LOCAL REGULATION.

For purposes of the Federal Communications Commission's regulation relating to station antenna structures in the amateur radio services (47 CFR 97.15), any private land use rules applicable to such structures shall be treated as a State or local regulation and shall be subject to the same requirements and limitations as a State or local regulation.

Sample Letter of Support (http://www.arrl.org/govrelations/hr3876/sample-letter.html)

Find your Congressperson (http://www.house.gov/writerep/)

[W6SN]

This will be a great thing, especially with the prevalence of HOA's and the accompanying CC&R's nowadays. The silver lining to Katrina, especially when closely followed by Rita was that the ability of hams to communicate when most if not all other standard methods of communication failed, never wavered. Even in the face of bad solar conditions, we were there passing traffic.

To those who say "not much was needed from hams", I suggest you look at the stats of how many messages were passed for HWN, SATERN, ARES, and RACES.

Also, regardless of whether you think the guy who goes out with his yellow jacket and has the pair of HT's, and a baseball cap, is a nutjob, he at least is doing something aside from complaining about things on an internet board.

I'll definately be sending a letter to my reps, even though I don't live in an HOA with CC&R's. I know that someday I may have no choice but to move into such a community, and having a blase attitude towards CC&R's simply because they don't apply would be much too shortsighted. Everyone make sure you send a letter, and spread the news to other hams you know who may not read QRZ.

73 de Jason (W6SN)

[ne3r]

Great News! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

I'm not a big fan of canned letters, if I were an elected official, I think I'd find the canned letters annoying (if not boring).

73
Joe
N3PAQ

[N1MLF]

I sent a letter (email) to Fox News and CNN citing a few websites with amateur news on the relief efforts in the gulf. I encouraged them to look into the "unsung heros" behind the scenes. Hopefully they will put together a segment or a special dedicated to the efforts of hams.
Letters from many hams wouldn't hurt...
73 de N1MLF aka ..JW..

[n5uoa]

As a Ham Radio Operator with the Salvation Army and State RACES. This is a needed bill cause I am located along the Texas Gulf Coast,and in a DISASTER ZONE. Its about time that Blinded People in Deeded Areas see the light.

Usually they restrict everything. In My Neighborhood there are over 5 community managements in fact behind me in the rear yard those people can have antennas, but my street of 24 homes can not. The deed peoplr here is Called San Migual located in Mission Bend,who restricts every antenna, . They even tried to stop and enforce no satelitte antennas for homes. They were forcing people to USE WARNER CABLE and would not allow even a roof top antenna for tv's. Its all Politics.

Mark N5UOA

[W3MIV]

I have posted a comment in the "Amateur Radio" forum.

Go there and read the post.

Then write your Representative a letter asking his/her support and action.

Do this now.!

[W9WHE]

To make SURE your letter carries the biggest effect possible, send a small donation to your elected representitive. Send $20. If money is tight, cancel your ARRL membership and send the money to your representitive. I GUARNTEE that even a small money donation to your elected representitive will go MUCH further then in the hands of ARRL.

Now is the time. If this bill is EVER to get passed, it will get passed now.

W9WHE

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (n5uoa @ Sep. 27 2005,06:38)]The deed peoplr here is Called San Migual located in Mission Bend,who restricts every antenna, . They even tried to stop and enforce no satelitte antennas for homes. They were forcing people to USE WARNER CABLE and would not allow even a roof top antenna for tv's.
Mark N5UOA
That is a violation of Federal law. Hope you informed them of such.

[N5UV]

Quote[/b] (N3PAQ @ Sep. 26 2005,16:54)]Great News! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

I'm not a big fan of canned letters, if I were an elected official, I think I'd find the canned letters annoying (if not boring).

73
Joe
N3PAQ
<<<<<<<<<<

Good point Joe...but the odds of single person's email being skimmed, much less read, is very low...meaning that too much extra effort to personalize the form letter may be time wasted. I do one personalized pre-cursor paragraph (takes maybe 5 minutes), then segue into pre-canned form letter.

The main thing is to get as many out as possible, and FAST, because congressional/senatorial staff do count the number of email responses, even if it's the same form letter...take it from me, someone that works with political and charitable fundraisers all the time, voices in numbers speak louder than the actual msg....that's not always a good thing, but it is a fact to consider.

[W6SJ]

The CC&R's in my community limit antenna height to 3 feet. Needless to say, I have stealth antennas. It's not like these rules represents "the will of the majority" because those CC&R's were developed in some lawyer's office before construction even began.

In my area, Orange County, CA, virtually every new tract has similar restrictions. So it's not like you can find a similar home 2 blocks away that doesn't have the restrictions. Anyone who has bought a home here that was built in the last 30 years faces this same problem. Over 1,500,000 people are negatively affected in this County.

We certainly appreciate hams who do not have these restrictions joining in writing. We'll help you too when your ox gets gored.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (W6SJ @ Sep. 27 2005,13:52)]The CC&R's in my community limit antenna height to 3 feet. Needless to say, I have stealth antennas. #It's not like these rules represents "the will of the majority" because those CC&R's were developed in some lawyer's office before construction even began. #

In my area, Orange County, CA, virtually every new tract has similar restrictions. #So it's not like you can find a similar home 2 blocks away that doesn't have the restrictions. Anyone who has bought a home here that was built in the last 30 years faces this same problem. #Over 1,500,000 people are negatively affected in this County.

We certainly appreciate hams who do not have these restrictions joining in writing. #We'll help you too when your ox gets gored.
I'm in an unrestricted area with a tower and plenty of wire. #However, who knows how long that will last? #I had a difficult time finding property that is free when I moved home 11 years ago. I stand with those who need this bill.

My letter has been sent. #Hope there are thousands of them going.

[W3HEA]

Ted David, on CNBC in the mornings e.s.t. is a ham. It might not be a bad idea to ask him to mention ham participation with the storms. Bill Hinds, Hilton Head SC.

[n4gsa]

If my fellow hams would remember, the ARRL backed HR-1478. When the BPL problem popped up the ARRL back off HR-1478. Look it up, the same NY Senator started that bill also.

It's hard to trust any politican, and organizations like the ARRL who are in a politicians pocket.

I would love to see HR-3876 pass, but i'm not holding my breath.

I reside in a HOA controled area, I have a GAP Titan up 6' off the ground behind my garage, painted forest green to blend in. So far nothing has been said. "IF" and when the bill passes the GAP will go up 20'. In it's present situation distance is a problem.

Have a positive ham day.

"God Bless America"

Jim

[W6XTC]

I must agree with several of the posts, that is increasingly difficult to move to an area, where there are no CCR's or HOA, especially in California. But really, by writing to our senators, governors, ARRL, FCC whoever, is that really going to help our cause? If those in power, are not involved in amateur radio, we are thought of by them as just another special interest group.

A few postings ago, someone wrote about the declining numbers. We had all sorts of reasons as to why. Hams dying, no interest in the younger age groups, high priced equipment, code vs nocode, etc etc. No one mentioned that without an antenna you can't transmit!!! More and more areas are stopping us erecting a fairly decent antenna.

Ask yourself a couple of questions, how many hams do you know, that are not active because of this very reason? How many hams have you heard about that say, now I'm retired I can take up the hobby again, because we were able to buy a property, where I can erect an antenna.

Yes we get good and deserved publicity, during emergencies, but several weeks after the event is over, we become the forgotten few again.

My belief is, we need to act at the club level, to argue with these wannabee lawyers that call themselves HOA's, and to reason with the authorites on CCR's.
After all we can argue as much as we like on QRZ and other posting boards, that code-vs-nocode will kill the hobby, that radio manufacturers are putting the prices out of reach of the average ham's budget, or that no one is coming into the hobby for whatever reason. But Reality is, if you can't erect an antenna on your OWN property, you may as well forget hf and to a lesser degree vhf/uhf, unless you go mobile.

Its time we worked with our clubs, who are already at the local level, to really put forward our case, and give the option back to HOA's members, that as long as I am paying my mortage or rent, and I am not breaking any state, county, or federal law, and abiding by the FCC guidelines, I am going to erect an antenna, and I am going to enjoy my hobby.

After all, we don't complain to them we dont like golf carts in the area do we!

Folks and fellow hams, if we want to preserve or wonderful hobby, we have to do more ourselves, collectively, as clubs and associations.and not rely solely on our state elected officials, or the ARRL, to act for us.

PS: No hard feelings meant towards golfers, just a comparison.

[kg6jei]

Let's just not let this bill die in committee like last time.

Keep up the heat! Get it to a vote!

(Sen't in my letter hope every one else is doing the same)

I'm in a CCR Area, put in long before the buildings were made, moved in before I was a ham.

I have to admit I'm not holding my breath either for this bill to pass, all I can say is we must keep up the heat on it, this one must at the least get to a vote, rather then sit silently on a desk to be forgotten.

[W5TXR]

Kudos!!

[K3TJ]

I never claimed to be the brightest bunny in the woods but how does linking CCR's to State and Local Regulations help us?

Respectfully, Ed k3tj

[n3tee]

I surely hope this bill will pass so, i can put up a decent HF antenna, or I will just have to run a coax cable to the car and use it that route. They can't restrict what on your car.

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (K3TJ @ Sep. 28 2005,23:19)]I never claimed to be the brightest bunny in the woods but how does linking CCR's to State and Local Regulations help us?

Respectfully, Ed k3tj
By pre-empting the covenants, and thus taking the matter out of the hands of the HOA or worse, individual covenant-based suits filed by NIMBY neighbors, the issue will then become one of ordinary zoning laws, which are required by PRB-1 to make reasonable accommodations for amateur radio antennas.

Covenants are deed-based restrictions that, once created and filed, remain attached to the land forever.

[n9yb]

Quote[/b] (K3TJ @ Sep. 29 2005,01:19)]I never claimed to be the brightest bunny in the woods but how does linking CCR's to State and Local Regulations help us?

Respectfully, Ed k3tj
A CCR (or a clause within it) would be in default if it were to abridge a local, state or Federal law.

[N2JBE]

What ever happened to PRB-1? I've been out of the CC&R loop for a while... or did that apply to local ordinances only?

[N2JBE]

Here is what I wrote to my representative:

I am writing you today to voice my profound support for HR4720, the Amateur Radio Communications Consistency Act ("The Act"). When I learned of the existence of The Act, I was encouraged, to say the least. Amateur Radio Operators have served their country time and time again by providing emergency communications during disasters where other forms of communications were destroyed. Need I mention that Amateur Radio was practically the only form of communication available in the aftermath of the horrific September 11 bombings in New York City. Recently, we have also witnessed the heroic efforts of Amateurs during the Katrina and Rita hurricane recoveries. No one will question the significance and importance that Amateur Radio Operators bring to the realm of national security, defense, and disaster recovery. However, there has been a trend over the past two decades to eradicate Amateur Radio Operators' ability to serve in their lawfully prescribed capacity. Seemingly everywhere, power-hungry homeowners' associations and local governments have passed rules and ordinances forbidding Amateurs from erecting antenna structures necessary to perform their lawfully prescribed duties. These HOA Rules and local ordinances are in direct conflict with the purpose and necessity of Amateur Radio, as prescribed by the Communications Act of 1934, and serve to undermine our nation's ability to recover from terrorist attacks and natural disasters. It is not possible to call into question the importance of reacting swiftly to such events, both with respect to post-event assesment and continuing emergency communications during reconstruction. We cannot afford as a nation to continue to undermine our most reliable form of emergency communication. To do so could only be in the best interests of those who would like to see us harmed. I urge your support of this bill and hope that the Amateur community will be able to count on you.

I thank you for your time. Sincerely,

[KD6NIG]

I'm glad to see this is reintroduced again.

However, we probably would have never had this problem if people simply stood up for thier rights and refused to move into neighborhoods with so many restrictions you can't even put things out on your porch anymore (some of them are this bad, yes).

If a good portion of the population simply wouldn't go for this kind of stuff, then we wouldn't be having this issue. I know of a neighborhood in Sacramento (Rancho Cordova) where ALL of the houses are not only painted the same color, you can't even modify the LANDSCAPING in your front yard so everything stays the same. I've heard of structure, but this is crazy.

The scarier thing is the houses in there sell for a minimum of $600k.

I'm sorry, but for that kind of money, I think I would want the right to paint my house PINK if I wanted to, and dangit, if I want some flowers in the front yard, I'm going to have them!

But, hey, if society accepts this kind of stuff, nothing I can do, I guess.

I just wonder how many lawsuits will result because the people who love the structure of HOA communities will outcry.

[W6XTC]

Very well said KD6NIG. It's just amazing how much we let other people dictate to us how we should live our lives, in a home that we are paying rent or a mortgage.

i just wonder how many citizens living in other countries allow their neighbors, HOA's etc to tell them what to do in and out of their own homes? and as you rightly point out, its not just antennas! (Maybe some readers of QRZ from countries other than the US could let us know if they have similar restrictions)

Certainly antenna structure restrictions seem not to apply to some of the countries from which I have received QSL cards from.. Finland and Italy for example..Now they have antenna farms that I could only dream of!!

[AK7V]

When I was in Finland, I noticed that a lot of houses had tall broadcast TV antennas and ladders build onto the sides of their houses up to the roof.

I won't buy a house that has an HOA if I can help it.

[n0xmz]

It's a great idea, but I wonder if this could backfire on us. If HOAs suddenly lose their power, I imagine that they will start lobbying on the state & local level to make their silly rules into LAW. They could lobby my city council or state gov't to ban our antennae and then we'd REALLY be screwed.

I predict it would start out as an ad campaign with the same tired, old phrases like "do YOU want your neighbors to have pink houses & cars on blocks?".

What we really need is an exemption like the TV antenna has - PERIOD. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[k4kyv]

Quote[/b] (n0xmz @ Sep. 29 2005,13:03)]It's a great idea, but I wonder if this could backfire on us. If HOAs suddenly lose their power, I imagine that they will start lobbying on the state & local level to make their silly rules into LAW.
That's where PRB-1 steps in. This proposal would put covenantsinto the same category as zoning laws.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (n0xmz @ Sep. 29 2005,13:03)]It's a great idea, but I wonder if this could backfire on us. If HOAs suddenly lose their power, I imagine that they will start lobbying on the state & local level to make their silly rules into LAW. They could lobby my city council or state gov't to ban our antennae and then we'd REALLY be screwed.
Can't do it. That is already against Federal law.

That's the whole point of this bill. Make the CC&Rs comply with the same law.

[kb6ssn]

The Bill is a good idea. But the best idea is not to move into a neighborhood with Communist, Crap & Regulations! I can't imagine why anyone would want to. You'd have to be pretty weak to want that type of security!

[KD6NIG]

I mean, some people see CC&R's as a 'lid filter' for those who would park cars, paint thier houses pink, etc etc, but some of the things they restrict are downright crazy. Also, depending on how it is ran, enforcement can depend on how friendly you are with the board enforcing said CC&R's.

Case in point: I had a friend who lived in a HOA condo. His neighbor would constantly park his vehicle in the fire lane, basically blocking an entire lane of traffic. Complaints were made by him and others about the traffic hazard this created (his house was on a curve, and the "HOA landscaping" blocked view of it). But, since he had the ear of the president of the HOA, nothing was ever done, except increased scrutiny on those who kept reporting him.

One day a fire truck came around said curve heading to a call and hit the guys car. The impact was only maybe 10 mph since it was a narrow road, but the truck was responding to an emergency. The guy sued the city. The city hired an attorney, who presented all of the written complaints and got the suit tossed. Turns out the VP of the HOA was a retired fireman and had kept them all, and wanted action taken also but was overruled by the rest of the board.

The guy got a new car and kept parking it on the curb. This went another month before the police got involved and started driving though and ticketing him. All told, after about 2 years, he finally learned.

So, HOA's are mostly there for the convienence of the people running them, and those who choose to kiss the proper prosterior, as far as I can tell. Most of them charge FEES too, which is another thing I have yet to understand....Spend $600K for a house, be told what you can and cannot do with property you own, and pay a monthly fee so they can keep telling you that you can't.

What a racket, I tell you. Why the heck am I working for a living? I should just start my own HOA.

[KB4IFS]

Twice I have tried to assist the ARRL and find out what they are doing, or plan to do, in SC. I have never been contacted or asked to help. As a result that I am unable to put up antennas that are reliable and work on the bands I do. I have pretty much left the hobby. Yes, I know many will demean me and come up with alternate methods to operate. Yes, since 1983 and an Extra I think I know what they are. I still remain inactive. I guess this is one more nail in the coffin of Hamming. BYW, doesn't it seem strange that SO many organizations depend on us and have wriiten letters of support or understanding, ie ARC and FEMA, yet NEVER go to bat for us? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[k9dy]

As of today, there are only 3 co-sponsors of this bill on record. #I wrote my representative yesterday, and will follow up later if he doesen't show up on the list. #Check and see if your representative is listed, if not, WRITE HIM (or her).

Bill Progress (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:HR03876:@@@P)

[KB4IFS]

I also sent Rep. Henry Brown a letter. Let's see what happens.:rock:

[kg6ugs]

I sent a letter to my Rep in Ca.

[KE6L]

I hate antenna restrictions like the rest of you, and I have a pretty good idea why they were really put there - to benefit cable providers. But some of these comments concern me. CC&Rs are a private contract that you sign. You agree to abide by them. They are NOT just imposed on you. Everyone who is bound by them signed up to them. The real problem is that you had no choice in many cases, because you needed a place to live.

I don't think this bill will overturn private contracts. Very few federal laws overturn all private contracts in their way. I wish they did. I wish that someone would come up with some great legal reasoning that clearly shows that EQUAL OPPORTUNITY HOUSING can't exist when discrimination is built into the title. That's right, CC&Rs are built into the title. As a condition of title transfer, you agree to be bound by the CC&Rs. There are retirement communities that forbid young people from buying homes (yep, you gotta be a senior citizen to buy a house in many parts of Rancho Bernardo, CA). Now that sounds discriminatory to me! What if we tried to keep OLD FOLKS out of our neighborhood? Well, it's legal. And so is discrimination against ham operator's antenna installations. You know, you can sign a contract that limits your right to exercise your constitutional rights.

The real joke is that we are dolphins caught in the tuna net. The cable companies don't care about hams. But they bulldozed our rights because we got caught in their anti-TV antenna path. Those same companies have easements on almost all private properties to install the equipment that makes them money. Including on my property. Those coporate elephants are ALMOST in the cellular telephone business now, so they'll be putting cell phone antennas on YOUR property soon, and you can't stop them. They're gonna steal the spectrum with BPL noise too.

There's almost 700,000 hams in the USA. They better learn to lobby and play the game like the big boys quick.

[KB4IFS]

I'm aware, just as many Hams are what was passed in the title. Many Hams don't care at all as long as they can operate or are willing to live in the country or older neighborhoods. FWIT, many don't bother to have ever joined the ARRL even though they benefit from it. Typical behavior in many groups. Again, although many laud our behavior in disasters ect, even now on the ARRL Website there is a story or how important we are, these organizations never take an active part in our defense. One day it may happen to you. For now, I don't operate, don't like the garbage on the air, and at times been ashamed to have shown someone my shack only for them to hear the trash. So bottom line, I keep in touch but dropped out of the ARRL, and took up another hobby. BTW, in my many years as a Ham many things have changed and will continue to do so. Hopefully others will be able to one day enjoy the activity.

BTW, I'm curiuos. Did you send a letter or are you sitting on the fence?

[w6em]

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Sep. 26 2005,11:36)]Quote[/b] (n5uoa @ Sep. 27 2005,06:38)]The deed peoplr here is Called San Migual located in Mission Bend,who restricts every antenna, . They even tried to stop and enforce no satelitte antennas for homes. They were forcing people to USE WARNER CABLE and would not allow even a roof top antenna for tv's.
Mark N5UOA
That is a violation of Federal law. #Hope you informed them of such.
Correct. #Here's the link to the section, 47CFR1.4000 (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/12feb20041500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2004/octqtr/47cfr1.4000.htm) that allows the installation of TV broadcast, satellite and two-way internet antennas irrespective of CC&Rs. I'm sure Direct TV and Dish Network have nice reproductions for hand out to Homeowner Association boards.

The one caveat: The size can not be greater than one meter in diameter or diagonal measure.

While you all are warmed up on Israel's Bill, you might want to include this regulation as an example in your correspondence. #Although one meter would be a bit too restrictive for most of us, simple wire antennas should be allowed with no restrictions beside, perhaps, a safe set back from overhead power lines.

Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL

BTW, my Representative, Ms. Katherine Harris, has ignored several letters concerning issues related to amateur radio. #Probably has lots of support from area residential developers who, of course, want STIFF CC&Rs.

[w6em]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Sep. 26 2005,10:54)]To make SURE your letter carries the biggest effect possible, send a small donation to your elected representitive. Send $20. If money is tight, cancel your ARRL membership and send the money to your representitive. I GUARNTEE that even a small money donation to your elected representitive will go MUCH further then in the hands of ARRL.

Now is the time. If this bill is EVER to get passed, it will get passed now.

W9WHE
Jonathan, I really have to say that I am amused by the continual inaccuracy of your spelling. #Didn't that matter in law school?

Anyway, since you are repeating your $20 contribution suggestion, I'll repeat what I told you over at eham.net:

$20 might buy my debutante-Congresswoman a drink at the Daquiri Deck on Siesta Key, but it won't amount to beans when compared to the big bucks Manatee and Sarasota Republican developers send her way.

I've written to her on several occasions about amateur radio legislation or matters affecting amateur radio needing Congressional oversight. #Even had some discussions with her staff. #The result: #Dead silence. #Or possibly the one form letter exception that thanked me for the opportunity to allow her to send me a form letter.

You see, one of the big developers here is a former member of the Florida Senate and head of the local Republican Party. #So, since I got stuck with his impossible CC&Rs AFTER I had signed a contract to purchase our home, I can speak from experience. #He even tried to prevent ANY transmissions from anywhere in his developments that may cause interference to any appliance. #I took care of that with some correspondence with the FCC.

In any case, I will be moving soon, so the remaining issues will be taken care of that way....

Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL

[ka9uce]

The way I look at CC&Rs, if I own the property I live on and in, I'm going to do what I please with it, and I don't care what someone says.

I own the house, land and everything else I paid for, who do they think they are anyhow?

What if I decide to cancel being a 'member' and stop paying the extortion fees, what can they do then?

Did purchase of the property include ordering me to pay someone else in order to live and use MY land?

Stand up folks, STOP paying the fees and take back YOUR property, it belongs to you, not the HOA!

Take the matter to federal court if needed, it violates the right of first sale and private property rights, and there should be no legal 'clause' that foeces you to pay a fee to make lawful use of your property.

I live in an apartment complex at the moment, and I placed a Hustler G6-440 vertical outside on the handrail with on a 10' mast and use it as well as my arrow antenna right in front of the office workers, big deal.

Nobody has said a word, and many have stopped and inquired as to what they are used for.

Let me state again for the record, no matter what is in existence prior to my purchase, or afterwards, once the sale is made, the deal is done and I take full and total control of the property, and from that point on, I control what is done on it.

There is no such thing as an 'ironclad' HOA or CC&R restriction, in fact, if I do decide to purchase property in the future, I'll make certain there are no additions on the contract, and since I'll have my money on it, federal laws prohibit everybody from denying me the sale since doing so would be discrimination, and that is illegal to begin with.

I would challenge the seller if they told me I could not buy the property without the covenant in force, if so, I'd be happy to take that matter into the courts as well.
I'm certain some hotshot attorney would love to enhance his/her bank account over a suit like that.

I'd tell them up front I will not be a member of any HOA, nor will I pay fees simply because they tell me to.
I will put the money down, cross out what offends me and continue with the deal, if they indicate I can't buy the property, I'd simply tell them thanks and I'll see you in court with discrimination charges with extortion included as they are in effect, demanding I pay money to support their 'club'.

CC&Rs, HOAs...COURT TIME!
SUE them, and keep it going nationwide, tell them it is not accepted practice and will no longer be tolerated no matter what their excuse is.

My money paid for the property, I am the SOLE OWNER, and it is up to ME to deccide what and how I use MY property, NOT them!

Go ahead, try to sue me, I'll take that challenge and trump them with several suits of my own.
[B]

[VE7NOT]

Quote[/b] (ka9uce @ Oct. 02 2005,21:06)]The way I look at CC&Rs, if I own the property I live on and in, I'm going to do what I please with it, and I don't care what someone says.

I own the house, land and everything else I paid for, who do they think they are anyhow?

What if I decide to cancel being a 'member' and stop paying the extortion fees, what can they do then?

Did purchase of the property include ordering me to pay someone else in order to live and use MY land?

Stand up folks, STOP paying the fees and take back YOUR property, it belongs to you, not the HOA!

Take the matter to federal court if needed, it violates the right of first sale and private property rights, and there should be no legal 'clause' that foeces you to pay a fee to make lawful use of your property.

I live in an apartment complex at the moment, and I placed a Hustler G6-440 vertical outside on the handrail with on a 10' mast and use it as well as my arrow antenna right in front of the office workers, big deal.

Nobody has said a word, and many have stopped and inquired as to what they are used for.

Let me state again for the record, no matter what is in existence prior to my purchase, or afterwards, once the sale is made, the deal is done and I take full and total control of the property, and from that point on, I control what is done on it.

There is no such thing as an 'ironclad' HOA or CC&R restriction, in fact, if I do decide to purchase property in the future, I'll make certain there are no additions on the contract, and since I'll have my money on it, federal laws prohibit everybody from denying me the sale since doing so would be discrimination, and that is illegal to begin with.

I would challenge the seller if they told me I could not buy the property without the covenant in force, if so, I'd be happy to take that matter into the courts as well.
I'm certain some hotshot attorney would love to enhance his/her bank account over a suit like that.

I'd tell them up front I will not be a member of any HOA, nor will I pay fees simply because they tell me to.
I will put the money down, cross out what offends me and continue with the deal, if they indicate I can't buy the property, I'd simply tell them thanks and I'll see you in court with discrimination charges with extortion included as they are in effect, demanding I pay money to support their 'club'.

CC&Rs, HOAs...COURT TIME!
SUE them, and keep it going nationwide, tell them it is not accepted practice and will no longer be tolerated no matter what their excuse is.

My money paid for the property, I am the SOLE OWNER, and it is up to ME to deccide what and how I use MY property, NOT them!

Go ahead, try to sue me, I'll take that challenge and trump them with several suits of my own.
[B]
This reminds of of a ham friend of mine who after installing his tower in the new neighbourhood had some moronic guy down the street say that it 'looked bad for the neighbourhood' and that he better take it down.

He calmly asked what house they guy was from. Once the guy told him where he lived my friend took a glance at his house and told him that the trees in his yard were ugly and that his house didnt 'fit the pattern of the neighbourhood' so he better build a new one.

The guy stromed off uttering words that I won't post here.

Yes facts are facts YOUR land, YOUR tower.

THEIR land, THEIR trees, house etc.

I scratch my head at morons who join neighbourhood orginizations and such

Remember when you point a finger at someone you have three fingers pinting back at you
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[ka9uce]

[B]
Oh, I just remembered the CATV companies I've dealt with in the past also.

They came down my street several years ago and began wlaking on my property, placing yellow flags all over it, marking where they are going to drill, which also included my driveway.

I forced the issue in court stating they are NOT a 'utility' but a for-profit company that does not supply a 'needed service' to me or my neighbors, therefore, they have no legal reason to trespass and destroy private property unless I give them permission to, and they pay me as well.

They returned, with equipment as well and began to drill under my driveway, so I filed criminal trespass charges and ordered them off my land.

One worker became argumentive with me and I told him that if they do not get off my land now, they will be forcefully removed with whatever force needed to effect it.

I proved easily that NO cable TV company is a 'needed serice' and has no legal authority to tread upon private property to install their cable equipment.

I have no CATV gear on that land to this day.

These bozos told me they will wait until I leave then install the taps, I said good, that means I'll have something to sell at my next garage sale because if I return and see it, I'll rip it out that same day.
The idiot told me I can't destroy 'private' property, and I said I'm not, it's on my land, it's mine now and I can do with it as I see fit.

I do not have to have cable TV taps on my land, they are NOT a utility and have no legal recourse to make use of the easment that a 'real' utility company needs, for obvious reasons.

TV is not, nor ever has been, a 'utility'.
Most people assume they have legal access to that easment, but in reality, they don't.
I fought it, I won.

I aked them if they supplied my house with water, they said NO.
I asked if they supplied me with sewer, they said NO.
I asked them if they supplied me with electricity, they said NO again...
I asked jut what service DO you supply me with that I need?
Answer: Why, cable television, that's what we supply.
I said, that's not a service I need nor want as I have DirecTV and have NO NEED for your 'service' to begin with, therefore you have no 'need' to place your equipment on MY land.

People often pervert the term 'utility' to mean any service provided by a company to people that have a need for that service, cable TV does not fall under that guise either, nor do they provide that which I need to live my day to day life, and are not the 'utility' they claim they are.

I've been approached twice by CATV companies, each time I ask them to point out how many sides of a road they see, if they tell me 'TWO', I tell them-There ya go then, use the OTHER side then...good bye!

They tried to 'sneak' their crap on my land when i was camping, and monday afternoon they came by asking what happened to the taps they installed...I said the are gone, because I yanked it out and off my land and it will stay that way.

I see that garbage on my land again, I'll yank it out again.
Do yourselves a favor and put it someplace else, that way you avoid these repeat call-outs and save yourselves money by making me rip this stuff out of the ground over and over again.

They have been challenged, I won the battle.

Keep your cable TV garbage OFF MY LAND and we'll be wonderful neighbors.

I fyou want access to my land, then become a UTILITY company and then you can use the land.

I tried doing a private cable laying once and was told I can't use the easement law to run my cable, I had to BE a 'utility' company to make use of the easement law, I used that same law against the cable TV company, as they could not 'prove' they are a 'utility' company, but a company that simply provides television via coaxial cable, and that is NOT a utility.

[W9WHE]

W6EM writes:

"$20 might buy my debutante-Congresswoman a drink at the Daquiri Deck on Siesta Key, but it won't amount to beans when compared to the big bucks Manatee and Sarasota Republican developers send her way"

Lee.... lets be honest here.
According to the government's own statistics, Democrats get far more Million dollar donations then Republicans. SEVEN TIMES MORE. Democratic donations are, on average, FEWER AND LARGER. Republican donations are, on average,
MORE NUMERIOUS AND SMALLER.

This idea that Republicans are backed by the rich guys and democrats by the little guy is just false. Look at the US senate...the four richest senators are Democrats! But let's not allow FACTS to get in the way of propiganda!



W9WHE

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Oct. 03 2005,07:51)]W6EM writes:

"$20 might buy my debutante-Congresswoman a drink at the Daquiri Deck on Siesta Key, but it won't amount to beans when compared to the big bucks Manatee and Sarasota Republican developers send her way"

Lee.... lets be honest here.
According to the government's own statistics, Democrats get far more Million dollar donations then Republicans. SEVEN TIMES MORE. Democratic donations are, on average, FEWER AND LARGER. Republican donations are, on average,
MORE NUMERIOUS AND SMALLER.

This idea that Republicans are backed by the rich guys and democrats by the little guy is just false. Look at the US senate...the four richest senators are Democrats! But let's not allow FACTS to get in the way of propiganda!



W9WHE
You are correct, and it has been that way a long time. Just another example that "if you say it long enough, even if it's a lie, people will believe it".

[n4gsa]

Looks like the subject line should be changed?

I thought this forum was about the NEW bill that was introduced in the Congress.

This isn't about kicking cable compaines off your property or buying politicians. Come on guys, we who reside in HOA controlled areas are helping to push this bill for a vote while the coals are HOT. We need your help.

We know that you can buy any politician if you have enough money, we also know that your property is private and only you can approve entry. The "WE" is us who reside in HOA controlled area. Try being in our shoes, we paid the bills and the guy next door wants to tell us how to live.

The FCC and ARRL don't have the #@$%^ to do what's right for hams who provide an important service during times of major disaster. The FCC just wants us to sit back and be good little ham and mind our own business, the ARRL just wants our money to do as they darn well please.

Enough of the soap box program.

"God Bless our FREE America"

Jim http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[w6em]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Oct. 02 2005,10:51)]W6EM writes:

"$20 might buy my debutante-Congresswoman a drink at the Daquiri Deck on Siesta Key, but it won't amount to beans when compared to the big bucks Manatee and Sarasota Republican developers send her way"

Lee.... lets be honest here.
According to the government's own statistics, Democrats get far more Million dollar donations then Republicans. SEVEN TIMES MORE. Democratic donations are, on average, FEWER AND LARGER. Republican donations are, on average,
MORE NUMERIOUS AND SMALLER.

This idea that Republicans are backed by the rich guys and democrats by the little guy is just false. Look at the US senate...the four richest senators are Democrats! But let's not allow FACTS to get in the way of propiganda!



W9WHE
Jonathan, (and all other over-reactors) my point was that ANY fat cat from either side of the aisle can be bought. #If she were a Democrat, and the developer were a former state Senator big-wig Democrat, the same comment would apply. #I've seen the guy apply his pocket book too often.

The party affiliation was only an example to make a point of how pointless a $20 bill would be to undo such an arrangement. #And, you know, I've never said I was a Democrat. #In fact, I'm a somewhat disenchanted Republican.

Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL

[k5lxp]

I will predict this will fail much like the similar bill introduced a year or so ago in Hawaii failed, and rightly so. #HOA's and CCR's are private contracts. #No one is forcing you to sign the line. #You can whine all you like about 'unfair' it is, or how 'impossible' it is to find a house not governed by CC&R's. #It's entirely fair, and I would be somewhat upset entering into a contract like that only to have the government step in and render parts of it void. #I may *want* to live somewhere where there aren't cars on blocks, pink houses and ugly radio towers. # As indispensible as we delude ourselves to be in the face of a crisis, in no way will that sway Congress to allow preemption of a private contract. #If anything gets out of committee at all, it will be just as toothless as PRB-1.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM

[KD6NIG]

You might want to also look out for your local 'code enforcement' inspectors. Lately these city representatives have been doing 'sweeps' in the city I live in, and I recieved a warning notice because I happened to have my truck parked in the driveway, but one tire was off of the concrete (purposely, mind you, cleaning out the bed with water, wanted all of it to run out the back) and when I went inside to get ready for work, they happened along and left a notice on my fence regarding this.

Now, it was only a warning notice, but I was curious, so I called. I was informed that I can only park vehicles on concrete or pavement. I cannot park them on the grass (understandable) or in the dirt next to the driveway, which I had done on occasion before. I asked if gravel would be acceptable, if I put it next to the driveway, and was told no, also.

Now I understand that code enforcement is out there to make sure things don't get too out of hand, but from what I understand, if someone had a problem with an antenna I put up, they would be the likely ones that would come calling, as I live within city limits, and not under the thumb of an HOA.

I hope this bill has some wording to that effect. I'm not too worried-I'm in a older part of town, about 50% of the houses still have old TV antennas on them, and 2 blocks from me an 11 meter gentleman put up one of those huge beams they like to run, and hes still got it going 6 months later. Nothing I would ever put up would be as huge as this thing. Before I moved, another person had the same antenna on a crankup about a mile from me, when he has it lowered, it spans across his entire backyard, but its low enough that people don't complain. He has power lines running across the back too, so I don't know how those and that huge antenna don't tangle.

I hope the bill includes language to not only cover HOA, but other entities like cities and counties as well. I wouldn't mind working with someone to make my antennas less noticeable, but I have a feeling if the city came calling right now, they would not accept anything less than taking it down, if someone screamed loud enough.

Luckily my copper Jpoles that I have tarnish right up and were basically invisible in about a month. Course, the fact that my neighbor across the street had a old tv antenna (which broke halfway up the mast and is now laying on his roof, with the broken parts still in the air) he probably thinks my J-pole is just some newfangled TV antenna http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[w6em]

Quote[/b] (k5lxp @ Oct. 02 2005,15:25)]I will predict this will fail much like the similar bill introduced a year or so ago in Hawaii failed, and rightly so. #HOA's and CCR's are private contracts. #No one is forcing you to sign the line. #You can whine all you like about 'unfair' it is, or how 'impossible' it is to find a house not governed by CC&R's. #It's entirely fair, and I would be somewhat upset entering into a contract like that only to have the government step in and render parts of it void. #I may *want* to live somewhere where there aren't cars on blocks, pink houses and ugly radio towers. # As indispensible as we delude ourselves to be in the face of a crisis, in no way will that sway Congress to allow preemption of a private contract. #If anything gets out of committee at all, it will be just as toothless as PRB-1.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
The Bill may not pass, since the ARRL is not lobbying it too effectively before the House Energy and Commerce Committee. #Despite the fact that Joe Barton, the Chair, is almost a neighbor to Jim Hainey down near Dallas.

But, my friend, if you think that the FCC is above enacting rules to *bust* private land use contracts, think again. #Read 47CFR1.4000 carefully. #It specfically pre-empts or nullifies HOA CC&R provisions that prohibit broadcast TV, two way internet, or satellite dish antennas. #The real estate developers tried to beat the FCC in court, but lost. #So, even though at the writing of 47CFR1.4000 they refused to include reasonable amateur antennas, they might yet change their minds.

CC&Rs preclude the satisfactory receipt of consumer services. #If the FCC could write them to protect those three commercial services, they could include the amateur radio service in them as well. #Although, a reasonable antenna may be up for discussion.

A measure to pre-empt CC&Rs and municipality restraints was proposed here in FL by a group in South Florida that defined a reasonable antenna somewhat descriptively. #The ARRL fought it tooth and nail. #Why? #The DX Lobby. #They apparently didn't want a reasonable antenna to be defined as a wire antenna.

Sometimes we are our own worst enemy......

73,

Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (n3brs @ Oct. 03 2005,09:04)]Come on guys, we who reside in HOA controlled areas are helping to push this bill for a vote while the coals are HOT. We need your help.

Jim http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
You got mine, Jim. I don't live in HOA or CC&R controlled area but I have written my congresscritter already.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (k5lxp @ Oct. 03 2005,12:25)]HOA's and CCR's are private contracts. #No one is forcing you to sign the line. #
True. Unless you want to own a house, that is.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (KD6NIG @ Oct. 03 2005,13:33)]You might want to also look out for your local 'code enforcement' inspectors. #Lately these city representatives have been doing 'sweeps' in the city I live in, and I recieved a warning notice .....I hope the bill includes language to not only cover HOA, but other entities like cities and counties as well. #I wouldn't mind working with someone to make my antennas less noticeable, but I have a feeling if the city came calling right now, they would not accept anything less than taking it down, if someone screamed loud enough.
The bill doesn't need to cover anti-antenna ordinances. Those are already against the law. If your building inspector said anything against your antenna, he would be violating federal law. If your city comes, get in touch with ARRL for quotes of the specific law that prevents them from taking action.

This bill is to get CC&Rs into the same law as now applies to governments at all levels.

[w6em]

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Oct. 02 2005,21:11)]Quote[/b] (KD6NIG @ Oct. 03 2005,13:33)]You might want to also look out for your local 'code enforcement' inspectors. #Lately these city representatives have been doing 'sweeps' in the city I live in, and I recieved a warning notice .....I hope the bill includes language to not only cover HOA, but other entities like cities and counties as well. #I wouldn't mind working with someone to make my antennas less noticeable, but I have a feeling if the city came calling right now, they would not accept anything less than taking it down, if someone screamed loud enough.
The bill doesn't need to cover anti-antenna ordinances. #Those are already against the law. #If your building inspector said anything against your antenna, he would be violating federal law. #If your city comes, get in touch with ARRL for quotes of the specific law that prevents them from taking action.

This bill is to get CC&Rs into the same law as now applies to governments at all levels.
"Anti-antennas" outright probably aren't around. #What are, though, are those cloaked ordinances that kill any thoughts of reasonable accommodation of an antenna. #Case in point: #The town of Anna Maria, FL and the City of Holmes Beach, FL each have 35 foot maximum height limits for ANY structure within their boundaries.

So, anything, including antennas, cannot be taller than 35 feet.

Florida has not one, but two very well-written, amplifying state statutes that say that cities and counties MUST reasonably accommodate antennas. #So, FL is well covered by both PRB-1 and two of their own state laws.

I've informed the ARRL of these two local examples of virtually NO accommodation on several occasions. #I've also advised both town and city attorneys as well, in writing. #It would sure seem like both would be good test cases to take on. #Especially, since as long as these ordinances are on the books, they serve as deterrents for any potential future hams and for those of us who might want to consider living in either place.

Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL

PS: #I suppose that its no coincidence that both of the attorneys are part timers and members of the same Bradenton law firm # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Also, watch out for my 'logic'. W9WHE says its inaccurate.

[n9lya]

Yes lets get this passed... Do everything possible..

when i bought my new house inMitchell IN...
I made it hard on the realtor... Told here it must be free of all Rerstriction, no CC&R and not run by any HOA...

She did all the work, and She found me the best home in the area.. And now it has antennas..

Oh I did not take her word for meeting my demands.. I checked with all local and county officals.. Prior to purchasing... Took all of 30 minutes to make calls and have proof faxed over to me...


73 Jerry N9LYA

[W9WHE]

W6EM writes:

".....I really have to say that I am amused by the continual inaccuracy of your spelling"

Well, Lee, I really have to say that I am amused by the continual inaccuracy of your reasoning!


W9WHE

[w6em]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Oct. 03 2005,12:49)]W6EM writes:

".....I really have to say that I am amused by the continual inaccuracy of your spelling"

Well, Lee, I really have to say that I am amused by the continual inaccuracy of your logic!


W9WHE
Your text clipper missed the mark. #Here's the complete quote...."Jonathan, I really have to say that I am amused by the continual inaccuracy of your spelling. #Didn't that matter in law school?"

You left off the best part, and of course, no response. #But, at least your last post, you spelled correctly for a change.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[W9WHE]

Well Lee, .............

I'm continually impressed by the inaccuracy of your reasoning. Didn't that matter in whatever school you attended?

As for my spelling, that's why I have a secratary. She takes care of my spelling for important things. Do YOU have a secratary that takes care of YOUR reasoning for you? Hopefully, you do.

When you launch personal attacks, they can and will be turned against you. Unfortunately, given the frequency with which YOU launch them, it appears to all that the personal attack is your best skill. Unfortunately, its not so good.

Try focusing on the issue, not the person. Leave your emotions aside. That's what adults do during intelligent discourse. #You will find that you are far more likely to persuade someone of your position, if you possess and use manners. Or wasn't that important in whatever school YOU attended?

W9WHE

[w6em]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Oct. 03 2005,17:28)]Well Lee, .............

I'm continually impressed by the inaccuracy of your reasoning. Didn't that matter in whatever school you attended?

As for my spelling, that's why I have a secratary. She takes care of my spelling for important things. Do YOU have a secratary that takes care of YOUR reasoning for you? Hopefully, you do.

When you launch personal attacks, they can and will be turned against you. Unfortunately, given the frequency with which YOU launch them, it appears to all that the personal attack is your best skill. Unfortunately, its not so good.

Try focusing on the issue, not the person. Leave your emotions aside. That's what adults do during intelligent discourse. #You will find that you are far more likely to persuade someone of your position, if you possess and use manners. Or wasn't that important in whatever school YOU attended?

W9WHE
You know, I don't believe I have a "secratary." #In fact, I really don't know what one of those might be. #The word isn't in Webster's.

Come to think of it, though, its probably in Dubyah's Dictionary of Fractured English Language. #I'll search the web and see if I can locate a copy. #(BTW, he was heard this morning on TV again murdering "nuclear" by referring to it as "nu-cu-lar")

I believe my point was made. #The amusement continues.


73,

Lee
W6EM

[kg6ugs]

I just moved into this area in Apple Valley Ca , I am renting this home in a CCR Controlled area, I asked the owner of the house if their were any ccrs or home owners assionationation he said not yet, this was 6 weeks ago, I installed an antenna in the gouund 10 feet from the ground not attacted to the house, and today I recieved a letter informing me to take it down from the HOA in 14 days, I have signed no papers or agreed to anything,

Please make comment, I have sent my letter to my REP 4 days ago.

Thank you Jack

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (kg6ugs @ Oct. 04 2005,18:28)]I just moved into this area in Apple Valley Ca , I am renting this home in a CCR Controlled area, I asked the owner of the house if their were any ccrs or home owners assionationation he said not yet, this was 6 weeks ago, I installed an antenna in the gouund 10 feet from the ground not attacted to the house, and today I recieved a letter informing me to take it down from the HOA in 14 #days, I have signed no papers or agreed to anything,

Please make comment, I have sent my letter to my REP 4 days ago.

Thank you #Jack
Sorry, you're probably out of luck. #The CC&Rs were there and the owner is obliged to enforce them on renters. That's why we need this bill to become law!!

[w6em]

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Oct. 03 2005,23:16)]Quote[/b] (kg6ugs @ Oct. 04 2005,18:28)]I just moved into this area in Apple Valley Ca , I am renting this home in a CCR Controlled area, I asked the owner of the house if their were any ccrs or home owners assionationation he said not yet, this was 6 weeks ago, I installed an antenna in the gouund 10 feet from the ground not attacted to the house, and today I recieved a letter informing me to take it down from the HOA in 14 #days, I have signed no papers or agreed to anything,

Please make comment, I have sent my letter to my REP 4 days ago.

Thank you #Jack
Sorry, you're probably out of luck. #The CC&Rs were there and the owner is obliged to enforce them on renters. #That's why we need this bill to become law!!
There may be a way around them, if you are willing to try something unique.

Put a satellite antenna or broadcast TV antenna not more than one meter in diagonal measure atop a mast, say, at about 25 feet, to the rear of your property. #Then, using appropriate insulators and copper wire as guys for the mast, you have HF antennas, disguised as guys.

You can then let them threaten you all they want, but 47CFR1.4000 will protect your right to have the TV or satellite dish structure, complete with necessary guys.

Also, you may want to ask for the Architectural Control Committee's guidelines for antenna installations. #If they say NO antennas of any kind, those will be useful if you end up going to the FCC to get a Declaratory Ruling to void them.

Just my experience, as I was chair of our ARC and made our guidelines more friendly and compliant with the FCC's regs.

73,

Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL

[kl7yk]

Seems we always lose sight of the original intent. Support your fellow Hams who are restricted by CCRs. Send in a letter, an email whatever it takes. Unless something is done this problem will continue to grow, BPL is a non-event compared to no antennas.

[k5xyl]

KL1PL I agree with you. The original intent of this topic is the support of our fellow hams that are restricted by CCRs. My letter has been sent.

[w6em]

Along with those letters you write to your Congressional Representatives, those of you who are ARRL members ought to write the League as well. #Why?

For one, to ask why the ARRL, on three VERY opportune occasions, said NOTHING of the need for HF antenna relief to continue to function effectively in emergencies. #Nothing in two testimonies before important Congressional Committees and a complete failure to show up at the September 15 FCC meeting (that covered Katrina's telecomm activity).

Oh, but, focusing on "what worked" was enough?

It isn't the NOW capability that is so important as is the future.

We MUST have stations with effective antennas located remotely from disasters. #As time rolls on, fewer and fewer hams will have them, thanks to CC&Rs. #Examples were made to Congress of amateurs being the key to successful SHARES and MARS HF functions, but no mention of how doubtful their performance may be in the future unless deed-restricted antenna constraints are pre-empted.

OK, I'm not a League basher, but let's all ask WHY they didn't use the opportunity to point out what is needed to ensure that we can remain able to effectively operate the same way 10 years from now. #When there will be even fewer homes without CC&Rs. #We aren't getting any younger, folks. #And, those of us who are youngsters
virtually all have CC&Rs. #So, as those of us who are living in older homes without the luxury of CC&Rs succumb to the ravages of old age, well, I'll let you all think about it for a while.

Israel's Bill has been introduced no less than three times. #Without a great deal of lobbying effort, it won't make it this time either. #Why the League sat on its hands and said nothing about antenna impairment at three of the best opportunities in more than a decade just baffles me. #Completely.

Maybe the ARRL has decided that only a half-dozen scattered HF-capable base stations across the US would be all that's needed to handle future emergencies. Or, that nothing but mobiles would be able to do it. Or, even more bizarre, maybe the ARRL has an interest in marketing a 40-section, pneumatic pump-up stealthy vent-tenna. #With an attic-mounted super duper auto-tuner that won't set the shingles on fire. #After-dark operation only, of course. #

73,

Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL

[W6XTC]

Did any of you read the report this morning about 200+ birds being killed by flying into the guy wires of a tv antenna tower? I believe it was in Madison WI.

Now the HOA and local authorities, as well as the bird interest groups, have yet another reason to deny us towers and antenna structures.

Sad thing is though, this news made headline news here in Cali, yet our proposed antenna regulations, have'nt been heard of outside of the ham community.

Why are'nt the ARRL and clubs promoting this? Why are'nt we seeing more letters in news media, and interviews on TV with the many hams, that helped out in Katrina or Rita? We don't want glory, we just want awareness of our existence and what we are able to do in times of emergencies, given the right conditions.

Funny world is'nt it!!

[KC9ECI]

400 birds that were too stupid to live have been removed from the gene pool, thus helping to ensure that the next generation of birds are smart enough to fly around towers.

[n4gsa]

Quote[/b] (k5lxp @ Oct. 03 2005,12:25)]I will predict this will fail much like the similar bill introduced a year or so ago in Hawaii failed, and rightly so. #HOA's and CCR's are private contracts. #No one is forcing you to sign the line. #You can whine all you like about 'unfair' it is, or how 'impossible' it is to find a house not governed by CC&R's. #It's entirely fair, and I would be somewhat upset entering into a contract like that only to have the government step in and render parts of it void. #I may *want* to live somewhere where there aren't cars on blocks, pink houses and ugly radio towers. # As indispensible as we delude ourselves to be in the face of a crisis, in no way will that sway Congress to allow preemption of a private contract. #If anything gets out of committee at all, it will be just as toothless as PRB-1.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
Not a problem Mark, K5LXP.

Those of us residing in housing plans with CC&R's and or that are HOA controlled will just sit back and watch gold fish in a bowl. While hams like you control the air waves and talk to yourself.

I truly don't mean to be mean but things change. Some of us has bent to the wishes of our spouse. In my case my wife liked the house and area so here we are. After putting up with me and my career for 35 years if was time for me to bend. Now it's time for the Fed's to bend and get off center.

They, the Fed's claim that we hams are important to national security along with always being there when public safety communications fail. Now it's time to put there word into action and pass this new bill in favor of we hams.

For those politicians who "do not" favor the bill, remember them when election time comes around.
In any case, TWO Terms are enough.

"God Bless America"

Jim, N3BRS

[n4djs]

Quote[/b] (k5lxp @ Oct. 03 2005,21:25)]I will predict this will fail much like the similar bill introduced a year or so ago in Hawaii failed, and rightly so. #HOA's and CCR's are private contracts. #No one is forcing you to sign the line. #You can whine all you like about 'unfair' it is, or how 'impossible' it is to find a house not governed by CC&R's. #It's entirely fair, and I would be somewhat upset entering into a contract like that only to have the government step in and render parts of it void. #I may *want* to live somewhere where there aren't cars on blocks, pink houses and ugly radio towers. # As indispensible as we delude ourselves to be in the face of a crisis, in no way will that sway Congress to allow preemption of a private contract. #If anything gets out of committee at all, it will be just as toothless as PRB-1.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
Ok, let me go down the list slowly. There have been a number of statements made in this forum that show a basic lack of understanding with respect to how CC&R's work.

CC&R are not contracts that you sign - when you buy land with a covenant restriction on it, you can't decline it by refusing to sign a paper (other than refusing to sign the deed). #You simply don't have a choice if you want that specific piece of property.

CC&R are deed restrictions, not contracts, which run with the land, and are recorded in the deed book of the county in which the land resides. As a result of their being recorded in the public record at the courthouse, you have effectively been notified of their existence.
In fact, the seller is not even obligated to notify you of their existance. (That is one reason that title searches are performed when land purchases are performed.)

You may or may not have a mandatory HOA in your neighborhood. If you do, and violate the covenants, the HOA or your neighbors can sue for compliance if they so desire. If you refuse to pay, they can either place a lien against the property or simply sue you, and if you fail to follow a judge's ruling to pay the ruling, you can land in the pokie for contempt of court. If the HOA is mandatory, you can't simply opt out of paying the fee.

When you lose in court (and you are going to lose), you will also get to pay the legal fees. The lien will be satisfied prior to you transferring the title to another owner, short of a quitclaim deed. If you quit claim the title, you will not be able to get financing on the property until such time as the title has been cleared.

So the short answer is, no, in fact the law is on the side of the people who wrote the covenant. This new #law is essential in that it states that these covenants must be subject to the same criteria as state and local laws, which would need require 'reasonable accommodation' in line with the PRB-1 ruling. Please write your congressman with the recommended letter. Please DON'T write a letter that will get filed in the crackpot file.

73, Dave N4DJS

[w2ass]

my question is this, if you knew that it was a cc&r area, why did you move into it? i moved from long island ny to winston salem north carolina and had no problem finding an area where i could put up my antennas, dipoles, verticals, and i only rent here, until i find my new home so i can put up two towers,

[w6em]

Quote[/b] (w2ass @ Oct. 07 2005,01:34)]my question is this, if you knew that it was a cc&r area, why did you move into it? i moved from long island ny to winston salem north carolina and had no problem finding an area where i could put up my antennas, dipoles, verticals, and i only rent here, until i find my new home so i can put up two towers,
Rafael: #Cool call. #I won't answer your question, but just a side comment.

The home you have rented probably is over 30 years old. #If it isn't, I'd be surprised.

CC&Rs started showing up in the 70's and have been pretty much universal for subdivisions since that time.
Why do developers prohibit antennas? #Primarily, the motivation was to get CATV providers to install their gear at no cost to the developer. #Then, as time progressed, and satellite dishes came along, whoa.......

The developers got caught in the war between the dishes and cable. #The solution: #The FCC steps in to protect the new satellite dish industry from the nasty CC&R prohibitions. #47CFR1.4000 comes into being to pre-empt CC&R antenna restrictions first for satellite dishes, MDS TV and small broadcast TV antennas. #And, later it was revised to pre-empt them for two-way internet antennas.

So, CC&Rs already have been pre-empted. #The question that needs to be answered is: Why the FCC specifically excepted amateur antennas from that regulation, allowing CC&Rs to continue to prohibit or unreasonably restrict amateur radio antenna installation.

It sure would be nice to hear Congress ask the FCC why. #Or, to tell the FCC just how to revise 47CFR1.4000.

But, in any case, 47CFR1.4000 is a limited pre-emption, and only permits antennas that are one meter in maximum dimension. #Anything larger or longer still isn't permitted.

Now, back to your comment. #In a few years, as more and more older hams succumb to the ravages of age, move into smaller apartments or condos that have CC&Rs, there will be fewer and fewer hams that can install effective HF antennas. #Unless, of course, hams who want to purchase a home will forget the prospect of ever owning a new home, or perhaps one in a subdivision less than 35 years old.

73,

Lee

[w6em]

Here's my letter to Dave Sumner, CEO of the ARRL, concerning ARRL Congressional Testimony. #Sent today, via email:

Hello, Dave.

Thanks for copying me on your response to Don, but, since I didn't receive his email to you, I'll take the liberty of writing to you on what may be the same subject. #ARRL congressional testimony. #What it lacked. #And, as an ARRL member, I'd like to know why.

First off, you have had two opportunities, golden opportunities, I might add, to testify at the invitation of Congress. #While the House Government Reform Committee, or whatever its now called, was not a particularly fruitful place, the Subcommittee on Telecommunications and the Internet of the Energy and Commerce Committee was a "bullseye."

You were invited to submit testimony, but after reading what you submitted, I was and am quite disturbed. #Why? #Well, let's see. #For three prior Congresses, the very same PRB-1 Bill from Representative Steve Israel has DIED in that very Committee/SubCommittee. #And, not one word was uttered in front of that Subcommittee about the need for our service to have effective high frequency antennas to be able to continue to do what was done for the victims of Katrina when future catastrophes present themselves. #And, what damage CC&Rs have done and will do to a greater extent as the clock ticks.

Ah, but you wanted #to wait. #Wait for what, another opportunity to be invited back to discuss just that Bill? #Forget it. #The forth time won't be the charm. #If it were, they would have asked you about antennas. #Did they?
Nope.

You had the opportunity to tell them about our demography. #About how virtually no new housing developments in the last 30 some years permit the installation of outdoor antennas.

All you had to do might have been to just put the thought in their minds about the future. #When, as older amateurs die off and newer and younger hams aren't able to have effective base station antennas, what that will mean in future disasters. Say all you want about SHARES and MARS success. #It won't happen in the future when the participant hams out grow it and there's nobody with effective HF antennas to replace them, except maybe those who are farmer-hams in the countryside.

I don't know what your strategy is with respect to pre-emption of CC&Rs, but frankly, it appears to suck volumes, by example, from any reasonable perspective. #To not have said that the future effectiveness of the amateur service is in jeopardy. #To not have hinted, at least, that we would NOT be able to do what was done for Katrina victims due to the elimination, by attrition, of effective antennas was a culpable failure and a major one. #And, I hold the ARRL executive staff accountable for it. #Its quite frankly beginning to look like the DX-clique-inspired Incentive Licensing fiasco of the 60's (to limit access to HF spectrum to a privileged few).

While I'm on the subject, you also failed to show up at the September 15 FCC monthly meeting that was pre-announced to be a review of telecommunications activity related to Katrina. #The only thing said about amateur radio's participation was from the lips of Commissioner Copps, who appears to be our friend. #Not one word about amateur radio from anyone else. #Such as what worked. #And, what didn't. #And, what WE will need from the FCC for the future. #To be able to "do it again and again." # I don't need to say it again, either. #If Atlanta was too far out of the way, perhaps the task could have been delegated to the Georgia Section Manager.

I will await your response and explanation. #Copies to the entire distribution.

Very Sincerely,

W. #Lee McVey, P.E.
W6EM
ARRL Member



You have my permission to reproduce and distribute this communication as you
wish.

[n4gsa]

Well said Lee. #I wouldn't count on the ARRL backing it's members, they seem to be holding hands with the FCC, regardless what the ARRL members want.

That's why I refused to renew my membership.

Dealing with the FCC is just like talking to most politicians, they do as they darn well please. The only time you hears from the politicians is election time.

"God Bless America"

Jim, N3BRS
"X" ARRL member

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif [B][B]

[WA4III]

Go ahead and send the letters. The post office needs the money.

[w2ass]

Quote[/b] (w6em @ Oct. 07 2005,23:39)]Quote[/b] (w2ass @ Oct. 07 2005,01:34)]my question is this, if you knew that it was a cc&r area, why did you move into it? i moved from long island ny to winston salem north carolina and had no problem finding an area where i could put up my antennas, dipoles, verticals, and i only rent here, until i find my new home so i can put up two towers,
Rafael: #Cool call. #I won't answer your question, but just a side comment.

The home you have rented probably is over 30 years old. #If it isn't, I'd be surprised.

CC&Rs started showing up in the 70's and have been pretty much universal for subdivisions since that time.
Why do developers prohibit antennas? #Primarily, the motivation was to get CATV providers to install their gear at no cost to the developer. #Then, as time progressed, and satellite dishes came along, whoa.......

The developers got caught in the war between the dishes and cable. #The solution: #The FCC steps in to protect the new satellite dish industry from the nasty CC&R prohibitions. #47CFR1.4000 comes into being to pre-empt CC&R antenna restrictions first for satellite dishes, MDS TV and small broadcast TV antennas. #And, later it was revised to pre-empt them for two-way internet antennas.

So, CC&Rs already have been pre-empted. #The question that needs to be answered is: Why the FCC specifically excepted amateur antennas from that regulation, allowing CC&Rs to continue to prohibit or unreasonably restrict amateur radio antenna installation.

It sure would be nice to hear Congress ask the FCC why. #Or, to tell the FCC just how to revise 47CFR1.4000.

But, in any case, 47CFR1.4000 is a limited pre-emption, and only permits antennas that are one meter in maximum dimension. #Anything larger or longer still isn't permitted.

Now, back to your comment. #In a few years, as more and more older hams succumb to the ravages of age, move into smaller apartments or condos that have CC&Rs, there will be fewer and fewer hams that can install effective HF antennas. #Unless, of course, hams who want to purchase a home will forget the prospect of ever owning a new home, or perhaps one in a subdivision less than 35 years old.

73,

Lee

okay, ill buy that. but the house im renting was built in the 70's. there are no deed restrictions here at all. i have a titan-dx vertical, two dual bander antennas, and a q5rv full size, no one said boo to me. the house that im looking to get was built in 1997, and still no deed restrictions there also, i have met with the owners and remax, i have told them i will not put anything down or go into contract with out two tower permits for 150 ft each, they are willing to file for these permits for me,, i undertsand that some hams must move into place's like these , but they must follow the rules just like everybody else does, these deed restricted areas are a private community? is this correct? i not used to these kinds of deed restrictions, my father did move into a place like this in 1991 in port richie FL, and the way we got around this is i bought him a ventanna,(http://www.ventenna.com/) which goes over the vent pipe, and made for vhf/uhf, the second antenna we put up was for hf and covers 10-40 mtrs.(flagpole antenna)
(http://www.force12inc.com/F12-flagpole-ants-003.htm)
i can say that both these antennas work and work pretty dam good for what it is. yes you wont be able to do contests and get big scores but for what these antennas are they work great. i just dont see how the arrl is goint to change the governments mind on this! also i dont see who the fcc is going to get involed in this also! they can do what was done years ago by the contractors, this is what bought these people into this deed restrictions in the first place, so they dont have to look at these antennas, its no the hams fault, from what your telling me this started back in the 70's? in this is when CB was in its highest point, 70's and 80's CB radio was on fire back then, another one more thing my long time friend ki4ltg lives in a local community just like these people are in now, he asked me how he can egt around this, with out buying the two antennas i have mentioned, i told him the only way i could see this happening is if went to the housing association and prented himself in a very well manor, not only did they give him the okay to put up the two antennas that he wants, but he is on the board of the housing association right now.i told bob ki4ltg that if he explains why these antennas are so needed that they might listen, and the facted the these storms are only going to get worse, sometimes its not best to fight with the people you live around but infact invite them to your house and show them what it is that you do, show them its to thier bennefit also. maybe im all worng in this way of thinking but i never had a problem with any neighbor ever, some did report me to the local town, but after i explained what i did and how i did it and showed them, it wasnt a problem anymore. and i went to the local town hearing by my self, i had no help from no one, and still got my permit from the town of islip in long island ny. and if i dont buy this house im looking at now, then where ever i buy my house i will check first if i can get tower permits, if i cant i wont buy it, its that simple.. sorry if i come off a bit hursh to some of you but you must remember the old saying,, buyer beware, also isnt there a thing called discloser?? isnt that a law when buying a house? dont they have to tell you everything? they can't hide anything from you is this correct? right? if so i dont see the big problem here, if all these people bought these house's and no on showed them this or had them sign it then its not legal is it? if they did sign these deed restriction agreement then they have nothing to complain about, they knew this from day one, they should have bought it then,right?
would you buy a ham radio gear for 1,400 knowing it was blown? no! its just my thoughts anyway,,please dont complain like a little girl about the spelling, lets not get off the track of the subject, i have been reading alot of these threads and im shocked that qrz doesnt delete alot more cause some people write about somethings that have nothing to do with the subject in hand. 73 to all, good luck with your troubles in these communities, best wishes in your quest..w2ass

[w4ass]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif AND THATS THE TRUTH http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[w6em]

W2ASS Raphael:

So, in just three days, you go from "until I find my home so I can put up two towers" to having found it and gotten agreements from the sellers to submit permit requests to the town or county commission for permits to exceed their physical height limitations? #You really work fast, Raphael, when you put your mind to it.

If a county commission were to give you or the present owners an OK for two 150 foot towers, on, say, a postage-stamp sized, typical 100X100 foot lot, well they'd be leaving themselves WIDE open for lawsuits from neighbors that just might worry about what your towers would do to their homes if they were to come down across them. #Plus, don't forget those guys. #You'll need to get permission from your neighbors to sink anchors and install guys on their property. #I haven't seen many 150 foot, un-guyed, self-supporting towers on residential lots. #Oh, I suppose those could be designed and built. #You'd have to dig one heck of a couple of holes for about 20 yards of concrete and steel for the foundations.

You didn't mention if this house that was built in '97 was in the middle of a subdivision or not. #Chances are, it isn't, or for some reason, has no connection to one besides, maybe, community water and electric service.

I used to be on the board of both a condo association and our neighborhood home owner association. #I managed to soften outright prohibitions, but not eliminate them. #To allow wire antennas and limited height vertical antennas.#Actually, I've seen CC&Rs that even prohibit the use of flagpoles to radiate RF energy!!! #How about that? #Vent pipe extensions will be next.

CC&Rs don't have to be signed. #If they aren't disclosed, well, they don't go away. #They run with the land. #An attorney might be able to get some of a buyer's money back from the seller or the real estate agent, but the deed restrictions won't change.

Now, that you've got yours, and are proud of it, turn off the bold type and we will accept the fact that we are guilty of not having made the right choices in our home purchases as you have. #As I said originally, you won't be able to buy a new home in a subdivision without CC&Rs. #Not many of us can find a small farm in the country to erect an antenna farm and still be close to our work and necessities. #Thanks for your help in helping to preserve the amateur radio service.

Oh, by the way, I could care less about your spelling. #Its laughable, though, when a supposed-attorney who posts here and over at eham misspells common words over and over again.

73,

Lee
W6EM

[K4JF]

"if all these people bought these house's and no on showed them this or had them sign it then its not legal is it?"

Yes, it is legal. They not only do not have to show them to you, they can deny the restrictions are even there and you are still bound by them as a matter of law. When I moved to S.C. in 1994, it was well-nigh impossible to find a home without (took me 8 months of searching) CC&Rs. It was also very difficult to even find out what they are. Some real estate agents refused to furnish a copy, saying "you will get them at closing, they are just the usual". (Of course, if they refused, they lost the sale as far as I was concerned.) I even found one that prohibited you from changing the oil in your car inside your own garage!!!
And we're not even talking about people who become interested in Amateur Radio after buying a house!

[K4JF]

... and yes, many of these problems are caused by the high-power CB craze of the 70s and later. Most people don't even know the difference when they get splatter, and just decided to ban all antennas. (Just another reason I don't like what CB has become....):angry:

[W6SN]

W2ASS, et al.,

Hunting for a house without deed restrictions/CC&R's is all fine and dandy if your XYL doesn't care where you move. Often times, a ham must balance (isn't that one of the ham credo's?) wife and family against the amateur radio service...

73 de Jason

[KU5D]

I don't normally post in these, but now I can't resist:

First, I think this has swayed a bit off-topic. Seems that the original intent was to get us to write a letter / work with our clubs / etc. All good ideas and generally in the spirit of democracy. How effective it is remains questionable, but it would certainly help more than doing nothing other than pontificating (entertaining as that may be).

Second, as far as wringing ones hands over how / what to do about CC&R's and HOA's seems self-explanitory. It's all about choices and what's most important to you...the buyer. If putting up our big towers and stacked beams is most important to us, then we have to look for a place to do that, and live with the implications that choice has (usually distance if you work in town, etc). If you can't do that and have to make another choice that "forces" you to live with the restrictions, make the choice and live with it. It's not a perfect world.

Sometimes I think we lose sight of a simple truth...we're not greedy, we just want everything.

C'mon...

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (W6SN @ Oct. 10 2005,08:21)]W2ASS, et al.,

Hunting for a house without deed restrictions/CC&R's is all fine and dandy if your XYL doesn't care where you move. #Often times, a ham must balance (isn't that one of the ham credo's?) wife and family against the amateur radio service...

73 de Jason
Well said. #I was very fortunate that my (late) wife went along with my "aluminum and wire in the sky" hobby. #I may have promised her a "mansion on a hilltop" - well, at least she got the hilltop!! #She was great about that. >sigh<

[w2ass]

Quote[/b] (W6XTC @ Sep. 28 2005,04:57)]I must agree with several of the posts, that is increasingly difficult to move to an area, where there are no CCR's or HOA, especially in California. But really, by writing to our senators, governors, ARRL, FCC whoever, is that really going to help our cause? If those in power, are not involved in amateur radio, we are thought of by them as just another special interest group.

A few postings ago, someone wrote about the declining numbers. We had all sorts of reasons as to why. Hams dying, no interest in the younger age groups, high priced equipment, code vs nocode, etc etc. No one mentioned that without an antenna you can't transmit!!! More and more areas are stopping us erecting a fairly decent antenna.

Ask yourself a couple of questions, how many hams do you know, that are not active because of this very reason? How many hams have you heard about that say, now I'm retired I can take up the hobby again, because we were able to buy a property, where I can erect an antenna.

Yes we get good and deserved publicity, during emergencies, but several weeks after the event is over, we become the forgotten few again.

My belief is, we need to act at the club level, to argue with these wannabee lawyers that call themselves HOA's, and to reason with the authorites on CCR's.
After all we can argue as much as we like on QRZ and other posting boards, that code-vs-nocode will kill the hobby, that radio manufacturers are putting the prices out of reach of the average ham's budget, or that no one is coming into the hobby for whatever reason. But Reality is, if you can't erect an antenna on your OWN property, you may as well forget hf and to a lesser degree vhf/uhf, unless you go mobile.

Its time we worked with our clubs, who are already at the local level, to really put forward our case, and give the option back to HOA's members, that as long as I am paying my mortage or rent, and I am not breaking any state, county, or federal law, and abiding by the FCC guidelines, I am going to erect an antenna, and I am going to enjoy my hobby.

After all, we don't complain to them we dont like golf carts in the area do we!

Folks and fellow hams, if we want to preserve or wonderful hobby, we have to do more ourselves, collectively, as clubs and associations.and not rely solely on our state elected officials, or the ARRL, to act for us.

PS: No hard feelings meant towards golfers, just a comparison.
W6XTC has hit the nail on the head! folks listen, your not going to change the fcc nor the governments mind. not when there are voters involed. Theres not enough hams to do that! you can write letters till your blue in the face. when voters are involed they will go with the most votes. is that right? of course not, but thats how the world turns. you must get involed with your local repeater ares/races group. start a education month, call it awareness month, call it ham month, call it what ever you want to call it. but get the communities that have these ccr and deed restrictions involed, invite them to your event. send letters to those people. tell them to come down and see what ham radio is all about. and please dont show them a tube from the 1920's and start talking about how the tube was invented, they dont care, show them ham radio and computers and what the two of them can do. show them how fast hams can set up a full funtioning system ready to send out voice,cw,rtty,packet etc etc, incase of an emergency. show them that this is needed in these communities. go door to door and invite them to come down, have a big cook out feed them, give them drinks, have movies, not the old ones with marconi, but the movies of today that show what hams are all about. because the bottom line is they are the only ones that can change this rule and no one else. remember these rules or ccr's and deed restrictions were put in place when? back in the 70's and 80's when CB radio was a big deal, you must show these people this is no CB radio and is not going to interfere with thier tv sets, thats the reason for most of these ccr's and deed restrictions, CB radio was the bad guy back then remember?? okay heres a for instance, my friend bob ki4ltg lives in a deed restriction community. i told him to go to the next housing association meeting and prosent him self and what ham operators do, and so for now he can put up two antennas no higher than 10 ft past the highest point the house. hey its not 60 gy high, but it is something for now, he is even on that same housing association commity now. so its not like this rule is written in stone. it can be changed by the housing association of the deed restriction community. okay im sorry for the spelling, my spelling ace has dead batteries and im not the best essay writer in the world, but i think you get my piont here. it would be easier to change the communities mind than the fcc or the government's mind.
i wish all of you who have this problem the best of luck with this!!! and i hope you all win!!!

[W6XTC]

W2ASS Great response and some superb ideas in there, about getting the local communities involved, and in reality, those ideas would be very inexpensive to put into place, and well worth it I believe.

It's really a shame that we could not co-ordinate a national US Ham awareness weekend, something similar to say field day. The operations should be carried out in a place that's open to the public, not behind closed doors like a secret society. Clubs and individual hams could be on-hand, as you mentioned, to demonstrate both the fun and serious side of the hobby. Especially invite the younger hams to participate, what better way to show people that this hobby is all for all ages, and not just us OF's as we get called!

Sure would be a great way to get aide getting this bill passed!!

73 all W6XTC

[w6em]

When people that don't have to live with the problem speak up, its always with a 'breath of fresh air.'

Show the neighbors in a CC&R-bound community a club's set up, complete with trailer, crank-up tower, yagis, verticals, etc. and it won't matter if a PC is connected, or some young kids are involved. Or, if you gave 'em all the beer they could drink, let alone free hamburgers.

NIMBY (not in my back yard) behavior is not really flexible. They see anything external to a neighbor's home as a detraction to their home's value.

I live in one of those communities and have been on its Board and its Architectural Review Committee.

If they could stop satellite dishes, they'd do it. The only reason they can't is because the FCC intervened on behalf of the dish industry. There are HOAs still trying to sue people who put up a broadcast TV antenna, even though the FCC has pre-empted HOA rules long ago.

Both of you have my invitation to buy a home in a deed-restricted community and to get involved in HOA activities. You'd find out what its really like.

There are even communities that violate PRB-1 and where states have amplified PRB-1, those regulations as well. If they can discourage or prevent the contruction of an outdoor antenna, they will do it. If they get caught, they just issue a 'variance' and go on about their business with the cr*p still on the books.

The prohibitions from HOAs and communities have a 'chilling effect' on anyone interested in getting into ham radio. Whether he or she is 10 years old or 70.

Katrina offered an opportunity not seen in at least the last 25 years to gain public support of amateur radio. There wasn't enough positive publicity on national and local media. If there was, there would have been recognition by government at all levels. Probably not by HOAs, though. Listen to this week's ARNewsline for more on this.

Our league did a number on PR as well. I downloaded the 30 second spot and took it to a local group of 5 radio stations. I was almost ashamed, as when I played it several times, it sounded more like an advertisement for joining the ARRL, than something focusing public awareness on what amateur radio accomplished during Katrina's aftermath.

So, beat me up for sounding pessimistic, but you both need to experience HOAs yourselves. If you did, you'd understand the scope of the problem.

Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL
Formerly, Vice President, La Costa Condominium Association, Bradenton Beach, FL
Formerly, Board Member, Laurel Oak Park Home Owners Association, and Chair, LOP Architectural Review Committee

[n4gsa]

Lee, W6EM, we on the east coast live with hurricanes every year. Katrina and Rite are NOT the first in 25 years.
When FL had 4 hurricanes in a row in 2004 I for just one passed messages to people in my area.

No disrespect intended, but you people on the west coast have no idea what it's like during hurricane season here. We watch every move mother nature makes from June 1 to Nobember 1.

I don't have ANY faith in the ARRL helping to push this bill through. It will fall through the cracks just like the last one. The ARRL is just like our elected officials in the Cngress, if it's not high on there agenda it's gone.

Have a nice day.

[w6em]

Quote[/b] (n3brs @ Oct. 10 2005,19:27)]Lee, W6EM, we on the east coast live with hurricanes every year. Katrina and Rite are NOT the first in 25 years.
When FL had 4 hurricanes in a row in 2004 I for just one passed messages to people in my area.

No disrespect intended, but you people on the west coast have no idea what it's like during hurricane season here. We watch every move mother nature makes from June 1 to Nobember 1.

I don't have ANY faith in the ARRL helping to push this bill through. It will fall through the cracks just like the last one. The ARRL is just like our elected officials in the Cngress, if it's not high on there agenda it's gone.

Have a nice day.
No disrespect intended here either, but look closely at my last post, and you'll see that the only West Coast I'm on is the West Coast of FL. #My family and I missed Charlie by 30 miles in two directions and had to evacuate last year. #Two others blew by and tore things up pretty badly, but we stayed here.

Passing messages is NOT what I was talking about. #Media coverage of what you and other hams have done during disasters was my point. #There's little doubt that Katrina was just about the worst US catastrophy in the last 75 years, and presents the greatest example of the benefits having the amateur radio service I've ever seen. #For the benefit of those in CA, large earthquakes, forest fires, floods and landslides aren't fun either. #And, take peoples homes, lives and ways of life. #And, amateur radio has helped during and after those as well.

What I was trying to say also about NIMBYism is that we won't get the legislation necessary until and if our lawmakers are convinced that the amateur service is like a utility. #Something that benefits the public and is necessary for the common good. #Part of providing for the common defense, promoting the general welfare, and ensuring the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity. (Constitutional).

Pre-emption will happen when antennas are considered similar to utility facilities that are constructed to benefit the public. #And, as such, the principle of eminent domain applies, if necessary. #Taking of something, in this case self-serving verbose frappe, to allow reasonable antenna structures to benefit the public safety, health and security, by virtue of the capabilities vested in the amateur radio service.

Until our service is viewed in that way, lawmakers won't budge. #Just patting our selves on the back in front of Congress won't do it. #Especially when we don't reveal the scourge of CC&Rs being an obstacle to our future capabilities. #We need to have the media pat us on the back in national TV coverage during prime time, together with statements about why amateur radio WON'T be able to do it again and again without at least a sufficient number of effective HF antennas. #And, how, over time, fewer and fewer of us will have them, thanks to CC&Rs. #CC&Rs aren't the friend of the National Association of Broadcasters either. #So, the media should be more than willing to get this message across.

60 Minutes, or one of the newsmagazine programs would be a great platform. #If KB2GSD is listening, Mr. Cronkite, beam us up!!!

73,

Lee
W6EM

[W6XTC]

W6EM Lee, I agree with the point you are making. I live in an area where there are HOA's. I have to use a G5RV led flat across the roof, raised just 5 ft above it. If I'm lucky at night I can go heist up a MA6V vertical on a self made tripod, and then drop it by daylight, but that's about it.

So again my point is, and I think you sort of mentioned it. We know the local governments are'nt going to stand up for us. The ARRL? well we all know that is'nt going to happen. We also know that the HOA's are'nt suddenly going to come knock our door, and say, "Hey I just heard that hams helped out during the aftermath of Katrina, so we give you permission to put up your tower". So just how do we get the point across.

The point I made was that certainly in my area, unless you are a ham, you would'nt know anything about the clubs, the special events, etc etc. Again in my area, and I'm sure in many others, if we showed the non-hams, some of our activities, an open house, a ham awareness day, whatever: it might at least convert a few of them to show support for this bill.

Maybe a TV slot would be good, maybe we should try a remake of Smokey and The Bandit, but use ham gear, I mean that movie done wonders for CB'ers.

Serious though, unless somehow (and I don't know the answer) we fight for this bill to pass, we educate the HOA's, as Lee stated, we show the non hams out there, just exactly what hamming is all about, very soon all our homes (which we are paying OUR, not the HOA's, hard earned money for right!) will be restricted from erecting any ham radio antenna. Guess at that time we all go and find a new hobby.

Lee's last comment re the media, is just excellent, but how do we make the media aware, nationally? We should not need to just wait for disasters to happen.

[w6em]

Quote[/b] (W6XTC @ Oct. 11 2005,11:37)]Maybe a TV slot would be good, maybe we should try a remake of Smokey and The Bandit, but use ham gear, I mean that movie done wonders for CB'ers.

Serious though, unless somehow (and I don't know the answer) we fight for this bill to pass, we educate the HOA's, as Lee stated, we show the non hams out there, just exactly what hamming is all about, very soon all our homes (which we are paying OUR, not the HOA's, hard earned money for right!) will be restricted from erecting any ham radio antenna. Guess at that time we all go and find a new hobby.

Lee's last comment re the media, is just excellent, but how do we make the media aware, nationally? We should not need to just wait for disasters to happen.
We sure as heck have to do more than the ARRL has, at this point, since the Bill was virtually again in the Committee's hands on September 23, and ARRL was standing there before them "testifying" on September 29. #Ah, gee, ah, well, we forgot about that. #Yep, I do think something is rotten in Newington.

Besides educating local folks a bit more, we could use the help of hams in the media and entertainment world. Since Brando departed, we lost a big one. #Same goes for Roy Neal.

But, in addition to Walter Cronkite, there's Ronnie Milsap, WB4KCG, and Patty Loveless, KD4WUJ. #Then, there's the guy who's with the Eagles, guitarist Joe Walsch WB6ACU. #And, the nationally syndicated night talk show host Art Bell, W6OBB. #Again, my memory's not as good as it used to be. #I'll bet Bill Pasternak, WA6ITF, if not able to help put this in the mainstream media himself, would probably have a list of who all the famous (still living) hams are, who might be able to help with getting something on national media for the public to see.

The key, I think would be to explain the now and future contributions of hams while the Katrina experience is still on the minds of people.

[k0js]

I'm concerned that advocates of the community approach to restrictive CC&R's are naive. The local publicity probably will do some good with regard to recruiting, surveying community resources, and so on. However, in response to ARRL petitions to the FCC requesting relief under PRB-1, the FCC testily stated that that they took their orders from Congress. And that, like it or not, is where we are going with HR3876. Solidarity! Jeff K0JS.

[K4JF]

"W6XTC has hit the nail on the head! folks listen, your not going to change the fcc nor the governments mind. not when there are voters involed. Theres not enough hams to do that! you can write letters till your blue in the face. when voters are involed they will go with the most votes."

Actually, that's not the case. This country won freedom from England with less than 10% of the people actively campaigning. Most great changes are made by small groups, because the overwhelming majority does not choose to get involved.

If we speak with one voice, we can work wonders.

[kb2yvp]

Quote[/b] (w6em @ Oct. 10 2005,05:18)]W2ASS Raphael:

So, in just three days, you go from "until I find my home so I can put up two towers" to having found it and gotten agreements from the sellers to submit permit requests to the town or county commission for permits to exceed their physical height limitations? #You really work fast, Raphael, when you put your mind to it.

If a county commission were to give you or the present owners an OK for two 150 foot towers, on, say, a postage-stamp sized, typical 100X100 foot lot, well they'd be leaving themselves WIDE open for lawsuits from neighbors that just might worry about what your towers would do to their homes if they were to come down across them. #Plus, don't forget those guys. #You'll need to get permission from your neighbors to sink anchors and install guys on their property. #I haven't seen many 150 foot, un-guyed, self-supporting towers on residential lots. #Oh, I suppose those could be designed and built. #You'd have to dig one heck of a couple of holes for about 20 yards of concrete and steel for the foundations.

You didn't mention if this house that was built in '97 was in the middle of a subdivision or not. #Chances are, it isn't, or for some reason, has no connection to one besides, maybe, community water and electric service.

I used to be on the board of both a condo association and our neighborhood home owner association. #I managed to soften outright prohibitions, but not eliminate them. #To allow wire antennas and limited height vertical antennas.#Actually, I've seen CC&Rs that even prohibit the use of flagpoles to radiate RF energy!!! #How about that? #Vent pipe extensions will be next.

CC&Rs don't have to be signed. #If they aren't disclosed, well, they don't go away. #They run with the land. #An attorney might be able to get some of a buyer's money back from the seller or the real estate agent, but the deed restrictions won't change.

Now, that you've got yours, and are proud of it, turn off the bold type and we will accept the fact that we are guilty of not having made the right choices in our home purchases as you have. #As I said originally, you won't be able to buy a new home in a subdivision without CC&Rs. #Not many of us can find a small farm in the country to erect an antenna farm and still be close to our work and necessities. #Thanks for your help in helping to preserve the amateur radio service.

Oh, by the way, I could care less about your spelling. #Its laughable, though, when a supposed-attorney who posts here and over at eham misspells common words over and over again.

73,

Lee
W6EM
This is perfect proof of what w2ass was speaking of in another thread, about people no reading the whole message before posting. I read the same message you did. Did i miss the part of him saying the lot size was 100x100? or that he bought this house? I can tell you didn't read the entire message, because you went to qrz to get his name and make him look like a lier or an idiot! when all you did was the reverse, You couldn't even remember his name it's #Rafael #not raphael! I never saw a ph in his name. He has been living in Winston Salem NC since june 5 2005 so far about 4 months he couldn't have been looking for a house? I guess where you live the house's come to you right?

Lets get this correct! In his post he said he went to see a house, no contracts are signed and no money was put down. He just told them no deal with no tower permits. thats it. I know this is no stupid man, buy the way you people speak to him you think you know hi