The Moral Good.

[al2i]

I have seen some pretty sharp attacks on Christians in this forum. The attackers seem to be assuming they are on the high ground, but I am curious which ones can lucidly explain how they know right from wrong.

Dave/al2i

[N3ATS]

I don't think you need to be religious to know right from wrong, or even have a strong sense of morals or ethics. I know plenty of religious hypocrites, that spend 6 days a week lying, cheating, stealing, etc. and then tell everyone how good of a Christian they are come Sunday...

Unfortunately, the minority of these people stick out like sore thumbs and make the rest look bad.

Same with Robertson and Fartwell. Both idiots, that the religious right needs to distance themselves from, big time.

Those are the reasons that Christians come under attack, I think.

[ab8ma]

I try to live by the same theory as a transmission line, using my "anxiety level" as an analogy to my SWL level. So, forgetting any pidgen hole named Christian, I say to listen, take responsibility, and if things seem tense SLOW DOWN!

[KG4CGC]

I think that I am the best judge of morality so since that is the case, everyone should just listen to me and do as I say and if you don't like it then you are an infiedel and should be dealt with swiftly.

[KF0RT]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Sep. 15 2005,15:30)]I have seen some pretty sharp attacks on Christians in this forum. The attackers seem to be assuming they are on the high ground, but I am curious which ones can lucidly explain how they know right from wrong.

Dave/al2i
Is the assumption then, that only Christians reasonably know right from wrong? Balderdash.

Here's a "good book":
Link. (http://198.187.128.12/colorado/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=fs-main.htm&2.0)

73, Rob

[nx6d]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Sep. 15 2005,13:30)]I have seen some pretty sharp attacks on Christians in this forum. #The attackers seem to be assuming they are on the high ground, but I am curious which ones can lucidly explain how they know right from wrong.

Dave/al2i
"Sharp attacks on Christians"? What are you talking about?

There have people (myself included) commenting on the Pledge issue, but no "attacks" on Christians themselves.

I see this type of commentary being thrust forward more and more. Christians as "victims" because someone has the audacity to disagree with some of the more vocal members of that community.

Ridiculous. Toughen up there snow guy...How do YOU know "right from wrong"?...

Dave WX7B

[ab8ma]

Why are we having this discussion?

Why?

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (ab8ma @ Sep. 15 2005,15:05)]Why are we having this discussion?

Why?
The determination of right from wrong is critical to human civilization.

Animals only eat, breed, write poems, run for office and die.

Dave/al2i

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Sep. 15 2005,15:02)]"Sharp attacks on Christians"? What are you talking about?

There have people (myself included) commenting on the Pledge issue, but no "attacks" on Christians themselves.

I see this type of commentary being thrust forward more and more. Christians as "victims" because someone has the audacity to disagree with some of the more vocal members of that community.
Dave--

I see attacks on Christians in this forum and elsewhere all of the time. Witness the numerous times K6BBC has suggested that Christians are nut cases.

It is apparently OK to attack Christians and any vestige or trapping of the Christian religion, but if Christians attack any other religions (other than atheism) they are "intolerant". The only folks more persecuted than Christians IMO are atheists.

Dave/al2i

[ab8ma]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Sep. 15 2005,15:09)]Quote[/b] (ab8ma @ Sep. 15 2005,15:05)]Why are we having this discussion?

Why?
The determination of right from wrong is critical to human civilization. #

Animals only eat, breed, write poems, run for office and die.

Dave/al2i
I wish to add to your list.

Animals also love, propogate, program computers, hunt competors, and surf the internet.

And my best pal, a beagle run over by some terrorist in 1962 in upstate Vermont, is waiting for me in the great beyond.

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Sep. 15 2005,15:02)]Ridiculous. Toughen up there snow guy...How do YOU know "right from wrong"?...

Dave WX7B
I do it like everyone does, religious or not:

A) What exists?
B) How do I know?
C) So what?

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Sep. 15 2005,15:19)]Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Sep. 15 2005,15:02)]Ridiculous. Toughen up there snow guy...How do YOU know "right from wrong"?...

Dave WX7B
I do it like everyone does, religious or not:

A) What exists?
B) How do I know?
C) So what?
... I have to have a metaphysics and epistemology before I can make an ethical decision.

[ab8ma]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Sep. 15 2005,14:30)]I have seen some pretty sharp attacks on Christians in this forum. #The attackers seem to be assuming they are on the high ground, but I am curious which ones can lucidly explain how they know right from wrong.

Dave/al2i
Ok. I hate you.

wrong.

OK I respect you for your comments.

right.

So I step on all insects I see.

wrong.

So I work hard to feed my family.

Right.

So I complain about a co-worker who is a major problem, and as a result he gets fired. He is married and has 2 kids.

Whats your answer Dave/al2i

Bob/AB8MA

[k4kyv]

Quote[/b] (ab8ma @ Sep. 15 2005,15:18)]Quote[/b] ]Animals only eat, breed, write poems, run for office and die.

Dave/al2i
I wish to add to your list.

Animals also love, propogate, program computers, hunt competors, and surf the internet.
Lots of animals operate 75m SSB.

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (ab8ma @ Sep. 15 2005,15:34)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ Sep. 15 2005,14:30)]I have seen some pretty sharp attacks on Christians in this forum. The attackers seem to be assuming they are on the high ground, but I am curious which ones can lucidly explain how they know right from wrong.

Dave/al2i
Ok. I hate you.

wrong.

OK I respect you for your comments.

right.

So I step on all insects I see.

wrong.

So I work hard to feed my family.

Right.

So I complain about a co-worker who is a major problem, and as a result he gets fired. He is married and has 2 kids.

Whats your answer Dave/al2i

Bob/AB8MA
Since I beleive that respecting others is in my rational self-interest, I would bludgeon the problematic co-worker out of respect for his family. But that is just my solution. Yours may be different.

Dave/al2i

[al2n]

How do people know right from wrong?

Mainly it comes down to treating others how you would want them to treat you.

Being good does not bring one closer to God.

If you got the time and desire, read the book of Romans in the New Testament. It covers this stuff pretty well.

For the other part of the topic, I am not sure if those who keep referring to Christians as freaks or nuts realize that they are doing do or if they are just looking to yank someones chain.

Reminds me of a saying I want to put on a t-shirt someday:

I am a Jesus freak,
Yes it is true.
Whose freak are you? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[w5klb]

Quote[/b] (al2n @ Sep. 15 2005,16:28)]How do people know right from wrong?

Mainly it comes down to treating others how you would want them to treat you.

Being good does not bring one closer to God. #

If you got the time and desire, read the book of Romans in the New Testament. #It covers this stuff pretty well.

For the other part of the topic, I am not sure if those who keep referring to Christians as freaks or nuts realize that they are doing do or if they are just looking to yank someones chain.

Reminds me of a saying I want to put on a t-shirt someday:

I am a Jesus freak,
Yes it is true.
Whose freak are you? # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Dave AL2N,

I understand where you are comming from. Christianity is suppost to teach "morals" and it does. However, the problem is not in the "transmitter" but in the "reciever". It seems that some from my side have not nor want to hear that we are suppost to EXAMPLES of our faith. This means that I RESPECT your beliefs although I don't have to agree with them.

I have honestly seen some "Christians" that were as morally corrupt and did things that would make anyone uneasy to be around them. Some of them are emotionally abusive to their families and seem to be "Christians" only in Church. On the other hand, #I have seen people with your beliefs that are OUTSTANDING people and raised their families to be responsible, self reliant people.

Me? I'm just human. Not perfect by any strech. I have a belief in God but that doesn't necessarily make me right. You don't believe in God, but that doesn't necessarily make you wrong, or a bad person. I am thankful that we have such diversity on our "big blue marble in space."

From one "Christian in training".

[KG4CGC]

As far as Christianity goes, it is my opnion that Martin Luther and King James did more damage to christianity than the Spanish Inquisitions.

[ac4ut]

Right from wrong? My wife tells me when I am wrong so I assume the remainder of the time I am right.

[al2n]

Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Sep. 15 2005,17:39)]As far as Christianity goes, it is my opnion that Martin Luther and King James did more damage to christianity than the Spanish Inquisitions.
I would be interested in hearing your reasoning for that.

[KG4CGC]

For starters, Martin Luther wanted to do away with the spiritual and mystical part of Christianity. He was also, by todays diagnosis, Schizophrenic. If he were not, then he would have to acknowledge the mystical side of religion as the only way to explain his internal battles. He was tormented by what he thought was Satan and his own desire to sin. I believe these internal battles were in fact split personalities.
King James, as we all know, sanctioned the first printing of the Bible using the newly invented Gutenburg press. BEFORE it was printed, he knew it would be distributed in mass so he had it rewritten. He demonized those who grew medicinal plants, like his brother, and at the same time created the burning times for witches and pagans. He alone created the Satan right around the corner fear that we still hear today. He and his brother each owned half of what was passed down to them from their father. Part of what he did was to take his brothers share away from him, which he succeeded at. His brother was labeled as satanic and was killed.
King James and Matin Luther both created such a state of dogma in the Christian religion that most of it makes no sense and we were expected to just accept those rules as the word of God and expected to believe that King James had "The Ear of God". So much of the Bible was corrupted by King James that it put the different sects of Christianity at each others throats due to all the differing interpretations that could be had. Each thought they were the one true way and fought all manner of battles in the name of God.
Islam had a similar division amoung the sects but I don't know enough about its history to comment with any real knowledge. I can only say that extremists wanted to kill the other sects in the name of God and that "Jihad" spread its way across the land to kill all non-believers of all faiths. The original Muslim religion was indeed peaceful but very very fundementalist as well.
Enough for now........................................

[kf6rdn]

Quote[/b] (al2n @ Sep. 15 2005,18:55)]Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Sep. 15 2005,17:39)]As far as Christianity goes, it is my opnion that Martin Luther and King James did more damage to christianity than the Spanish Inquisitions.
I would be interested in hearing your reasoning for that.
Because nobody expected the spanish inquisition!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[kf6rdn]

Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Sep. 15 2005,19:41)]For starters, Martin Luther wanted to do away with the spiritual and mystical part of Christianity. He was also, by todays diagnosis, Schizophrenic. If he were not, then he would have to acknowledge the mystical side of religion as the only way to explain his internal battles. He was tormented by what he thought was Satan and his own desire to sin. I believe these internal battles were in fact split personalities.
# King James, as we all know, sanctioned the first printing of the Bible using the newly invented Gutenburg press. BEFORE it was printed, he knew it would be distributed in mass so he had it rewritten. He demonized those who grew medicinal plants, like his brother, and at the same time created the burning times for witches and pagans. He alone created the Satan right around the corner fear that we still hear today. He and his brother each owned half of what was passed down to them from their father. Part of what he did was to take his brothers share away from him, which he succeeded at. His brother was labeled as satanic and was killed.
# King James and Matin Luther both created such a state of dogma in the Christian religion that most of it makes no sense and we were expected to just accept those rules as the word of God and expected to believe that King James had "The Ear of God". So much of the Bible was corrupted by King James that it put the different sects of Christianity at each others throats due to all the differing interpretations that could be had. Each thought they were the one true way and fought all manner of battles in the name of God.
# Islam had a similar division amoung the sects but I don't know enough about its history to comment with any real knowledge. I can only say that extremists wanted to kill the other sects in the name of God and that "Jihad" spread its way across the land to kill all non-believers of all faiths. The original Muslim religion was indeed peaceful but very very fundementalist as well.
# Enough for now........................................
From what I remember reading, the differences appear so minor, maybe becasue I'm an "outsider", but I think one was something about mohammad's successors, I dont remember if sons or other, but the difference was who was the legitimate succesor. That was the Sunni/Shiite differece, I dunno about other "sects".

I guess it goes down through a succession.. Anyway been awhile that I read it. I'm not sure why all the details matter in any religion. Believe in God (Allah), Jesus (Mohammed) whatever the main tenets of the faith (Bible/Qoran) and be done, since most of 'em say you shouldn't kill other doods, well dont kill other doods..

Yeah I know that's too simplistic, but what the hell.. I'll be back after MY religious programming is over.

(I think that damn coyote may get the road runner THIS week! I just know it! He's been so close! If he catches you, your through!)

[al2n]

King James did not rewrite the Bible. #I have heard this argument several times.

When the King James translation was done in 1611, the scholars used the best texts they had at the time for the translation. There are a couple errors in the translation, but they are minor.

More modern translations, such as the New International Version, New American Standard, and the New English Translation, were translated from ancient texts found after the King James was done. Some of these texts (there are tens of thousands of them) date back to the first century AD for the new testament and the oldest found for the old testament date back to about 2000 BC.

These texts found since 1611 translate nearly the same as those used in the King James. #The differences in translation are noted in most Bibles you will find on book store shelves. #Most are grammatical corrections and such. #A couple verses in the more modern translations will have an asterisk * next to them and a footnote that reads something like "some texts do not include this word".

In short, there have been many discoveries of biblical texts found since the King James Bible was translated. The dead sea scrolls are the most famous of these, but they are by far not the only ones out there. #All these texts are virtually identical. #So, unless King James had a time machine, it would have been impossible for him to rewrite the Bible to suit his needs without someone catching on.

Even if you took the variances in translations, the meaning is the same. #You will see some differences in grammar, and in a few places some additional text, but the overall meaning of the message is not compromised. The differences are minor.

Any study Bible these days will note the differences in the footnotes. #It is not a mystery being withheld from the masses.

Here is a link to some similar questions on Biblical translation and textual critisim:

Bible translation Q&A (http://www.bible.org/qatopic.asp?topic_id=24)

[KG4CGC]

I've had this discussion many times with theology students attending Bob Jones University. Everything has a slant to it in one direction or another. I support written history from a factual record before I support history from those who are trying to convert the world over to their point of view (not you).
I understand and respect your argument AL2N and I'll leave it at that. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[kc7jty]

Morality comes from a mature understanding of what it means to be human coupled with the desire to do good for the common good of all. It doesn't come from a blind commitment to obey a fixed set of rules one doesn't fully understand, with a goal of the ultimate reward of heaven, eternal life, or whatever.

[KG4CGC]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Sep. 16 2005,15:39)]Morality comes from a mature understanding of what it means to be human coupled with the desire to do good for the common good of all. It doesn't come from a blind commitment to obey a fixed set of rules one doesn't fully understand, with a goal of the ultimate reward of heaven, eternal life, or whatever.
You forgot "72 virgins"

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Sep. 15 2005,13:43)]You forgot "72 virgins"
Thats too many. 10 would be enough for me.

[al2n]

Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Sep. 16 2005,12:11)]I've had this discussion many times with theology students attending Bob Jones University. Everything has a slant to it in one direction or another. I support written history from a factual record before I support history from those who are trying to convert the world over to their point of view (not you).
# I understand and respect your argument AL2N and I'll leave it at that. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Sounds good to me.

[w4rot]

Come on people......
Molality is "Concentration measured as moles of solute per kilogram of solvent."
OK?
Whadyasay,NC
w4rot