Pledge of Allegance Unconstitutional

[w5klb]

Just of the the AP wire from, San Francisco.

Read about HERE. (http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,169379,00.html)

As a great mathematical genius once said: "It figures".

Nothing like a little Judicial Activism "to set things right" (ahem).

Note: Let's not turn this thread into another "religious thread". Remeber that Atheist and Agnostics have rights to their beliefs and that needs to be respected.

[KB9YCO]

Here we go again. If the original pledge would not have been altered by people other than the author we wouldn't have this problem. In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, and in the anti-commie McCarthy fervor, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer which automatically persecuted people of other beliefs and atheists and agnostics. What we should be doing is returning the pledge to it's original form and quit all this divisivness. What a waste of time, and tax payer money having this come up in court over and over.

[K6BBC]

Under God should be removed from the pledge as it is a clear endorsement of religion by government. I know the Christian right Jesus freaks are going to go apes**t, but it is in ALL our best interest to keep government out of the religion business – as it is keeping government out of the art business, or music business. Religion is just not the function of government and should be purged.

K6BBC

[w0aew]

Oh oh. Here comes another debate about no-god technicians.

What's that?

Oh.

Never mind.

http://home.comcast.net/~winterbauer/ham/radner.jpg

[AC0H]

Quote[/b] ]The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer which automatically persecuted people of other beliefs and atheists and agnostics
PERSECUTION!?!?!?!?!
You my friend need to experience some REAL persecution. How is hearing the phrase "under God" PERSECUTING anyone, other than those who like to raise hell and need counseling in the fine art of getting along with people?

[K6BBC]

Quote[/b] (AC0H @ Sep. 14 2005,12:55)]Quote[/b] ]The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer which automatically persecuted people of other beliefs and atheists and agnostics
PERSECUTION!?!?!?!?!
You my friend need to experience some REAL persecution. How is hearing the phrase "under God" PERSECUTING anyone, other than those who like to raise hell and need counseling in the fine art of getting along with people?
No. Wrong. The pledge affects the most vulnerable members of our society – CHILDREN. If a child is an atheist, or has been protected by their parents from religious indoctrination, they are likely to be targeted by other children who have been brainwashed and not taught tolerance for other’s belief. Unfortunately, religious indoctrination and intolerance seem to go hand and hand.

It is quite apparent, the current tact from the Christian right is to paint themselves as victims which is ludicrous as Christianity is by far the dominate religion in America. One must wonder then, what is all the fuss about. Remember, the Nazis used the same victim rhetoric to seize power.

K6BBC

[AK7V]

I don't think kids care unless they're told to. This is more of a grown-up issue, even though they don't say the pledge every day like school kids.

When I was in school, reciting the pledge was a generally meaningless exercise about which I gave no thought. Take that for what you will - I don't think I was anomolous. All of my athiest/agnostic friends grew up saying the "under God" part, too. I don't think it effected us either way. Upbringing by parents is way more of a factor.

It's kind of like the athiest/boy scout issue. The kid probably didn't mind saying God now and then because a) he didn't really care, and b) he got to start fires and do all the other cool stuff scouts get to do. The parents are the ones who had a problem and ruined their kids fun because of it.

That sad, I would be fine with the pledge dropping the G word. It isn't going to make a difference.

[ac4ut]

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Sep. 14 2005,13:04)]Quote[/b] (AC0H @ Sep. 14 2005,12:55)]Quote[/b] ]The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer which automatically persecuted people of other beliefs and atheists and agnostics
PERSECUTION!?!?!?!?!
You my friend need to experience some REAL persecution. How is hearing the phrase "under God" PERSECUTING anyone, other than those who like to raise hell and need counseling in the fine art of getting along with people?
No. #Wrong. #The pledge affects the most vulnerable members of our society – CHILDREN. #If a child is an atheist, or has been protected by their parents from religious indoctrination, they are likely to be targeted by other children who have been brainwashed and not taught tolerance for other’s belief. #Unfortunately, religious indoctrination and intolerance seem to go hand and hand.

It is quite apparent, the current tact from the Christian right is to paint themselves as victims which is ludicrous as Christianity is by far the dominate religion in America. #One must wonder then, what is all the fuss about. #Remember, the Nazis used the same victim rhetoric to seize power.

K6BBC
The difference is that we Christians already have the power..well at least the majority as you also noted.
You may indeed someday separate church and state but you will never,IMHO, separate religion and politics.

[k6pme]

Quote[/b] (AC0H @ Sep. 14 2005,12:55)]those who like to raise hell and need counseling in the fine art of getting along with people?
Would that be at the local Dr's. office or out behind the barn?

[KW4MW]

I was in the 2nd grade when my teacher; a Republican, Eisenhower devotee, religious fanatic and old maid excitedly told us that President Eisenhower had changed the Pledge and that from that point forward we were required to insert the phrase "under God" after 'nation' and before 'indivisible'.

She also made sure that in addition to the Pledge, that we also recited the Lord's Prayer and the 23rd Psalm everyday. #

Note that I said recited - that is we were required to stand and repeat the words by rote. #At the time, the meaning of those words meant little to us other than the fact it was just one more thing that we had to do to stay out of trouble. #Only much later did we realize the importance of the words that we all mumbled and jumbled together. #However I can say that having to recite those 3 items at an early age did not damage my psyche at all. #

As for the "Under God" phrase, you can leave it in or take it out, I don't think that it makes much difference either way to the intent of the Pledge. #Some people will be offended if it is left in, some will be offended if it is removed.

[KG4CGC]

And a cow can't winney and a horse has no udders.

[WA5KRP]

It's conceivable this case could once again get the fast track to the Supreme Court and wind up being Roberts' first hot potato. #Watching it play out will be extremely interesting.


WA5KRP
Texas

[KG4CGC]

Quote[/b] (WA5KRP @ Sep. 14 2005,17:00)]It's conceivable this case could once again get the fast track to the Supreme Court and wind up being Roberts' first hot potato. #Watching it play out will be extremely interesting.


WA5KRP
Texas
Very astute observation. I'll be watching that as well.

[K6UEY]

Not that anyone gives a Rats patootie,but I still say it with out the GOD part,that's the way I was taught and that is good enough for me.
If others do not like it ,it goes with out saying what you can do with it!!

Besides I was not too impressed with "IKE" as president anyway !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[n4ems]

I have been quiet about this church/politics thing until now and after reading the posts in here, I feel compelled to post.

Who in the hell do these people think they are? #This country, from its very inception, has had religion, to some extent, factored into it. #History is history.

Now, because some self centered, snobby, I am better than you and you can't make me follow your rules, cry baby, SOB wants to change what MILLIONS have no problem with! #They want to censor what we say, what we read, what we hear and ultimately how we think. #

Should these yahoo's prevail, than where do we draw the line? #Do we declare that the very Declaration of Independence is unconstitutional? #Do we declare that all the laws ever made in the US and in state governments are illegal because they were made in a congressional session (federal or state) that was opened with a prayer, thereby making that session illegal? #Do we censor all the great speeches of the Presidents of the United States that may in some measure made reference to God? #Speaking of Presidents, should we oust Bush, I mean, after all, he took an oath with his hand on the Bible. #That should make it illegal. #I think they even had a prayer, or two, there. #Nope, he has to go.

Ok, this one should get us all fire up. #How about we go into all the national cemeteries and pull out all of the crosses and take down all of the memorials because they make a reference to religion. #Can't have a cross in a national cemetery. #Might offend someone.

They want to control what I do in my life, than, I have a suggestion. #How about we heard up all these useless POS and put them in a box car, crammed as full as we can get them, ship them off to some really friendly place where nice men dressed in black uniforms that have pretty doggies to keep them company can keep watch over the barbed wire and razor fences, (to keep us God fearing people out). #In this really neat place, we can build a REALLY BIG furnace, (to keep them warm in the winter time), and, if they run out of fire wood, well, I think we could find something to throw in there. #Of course, when these useless brain deads get there, they will need a nice shower, to refresh and wash away all the horridness that was cast upon them by some God fearing American. #

Sounds pretty ridiculous? #Sounds pretty familiar to me. #SSDD.

It is time that the VAST MAJORITY of Americans who are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever, stand up and say enough is enough. #In other words, it is time to cater to the masses and NOT to the asses!!!!

Out.

Eric
N4EMS

[KG4CGC]

Religion is one thing. Government support for any one religion over all others is a whole "nuther" ballgame.

[K6BBC]

Quote[/b] (n4ems @ Sep. 14 2005,14:09)]I have been quiet about this church/politics thing until now and after reading the posts in here, I feel compelled to post.

Who in the hell do these people think they are? #This country, from its very inception, has had religion, to some extent, factored into it. #History is history.

Now, because some self centered, snobby, I am better than you and you can't make me follow your rules, cry baby, SOB wants to change what MILLIONS have no problem with! #They want to censor what we say, what we read, what we hear and ultimately how we think. #

Should these yahoo's prevail, than where do we draw the line? #Do we declare that the very Declaration of Independence is unconstitutional? #Do we declare that all the laws ever made in the US and in state governments are illegal because they were made in a congressional session (federal or state) that was opened with a prayer, thereby making that session illegal? #Do we censor all the great speeches of the Presidents of the United States that may in some measure made reference to God? #Speaking of Presidents, should we oust Bush, I mean, after all, he took an oath with his hand on the Bible. #That should make it illegal. #I think they even had a prayer, or two, there. #Nope, he has to go.

Ok, this one should get us all fire up. #How about we go into all the national cemeteries and pull out all of the crosses and take down all of the memorials because they make a reference to religion. #Can't have a cross in a national cemetery. #Might offend someone.

They want to control what I do in my life, than, I have a suggestion. #How about we heard up all these useless POS and put them in a box car, crammed as full as we can get them, ship them off to some really friendly place where nice men dressed in black uniforms that have pretty doggies to keep them company can keep watch over the barbed wire and razor fences, (to keep us God fearing people out). #In this really neat place, we can build a REALLY BIG furnace, (to keep them warm in the winter time), and, if they run out of fire wood, well, I think we could find something to throw in there. #Of course, when these useless brain deads get there, they will need a nice shower, to refresh and wash away all the horridness that was cast upon them by some God fearing American. #

Sounds pretty ridiculous? #Sounds pretty familiar to me. #SSDD.

It is time that the VAST MAJORITY of Americans who are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever, stand up and say enough is enough. #In other words, it is time to cater to the masses and NOT to the asses!!!!

Out.

Eric
N4EMS
The constitution protects the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

That is what makes America the greatest country in the history on mankind.

[n4ems]

Quote[/b] ]The constitution protects the minority from the tyranny of the majority.


Guns protect the minority from the "tyranny" of the majority.

However, if you feel that the "majority" are to tyranical than perhaps you could move to China or maybe N. Vietnam and than you can harp about tyranny all you want. (Well, actually, no you couldn't, but the problem would be solved just the same.)

[K9STH]

OK, people, let us all calm down or I will have to take action to close this thread down.

Glen, K9STH
One of the QRZ.com moderators

[al2n]

Removing the "under God" portion of the pledge will not wreck my faith one bit. I get my faith from another source. Take it back to the original way it was written and all will be fine.

I grew up having to spew back evolutionary theory as gospel in school, just as the athiest kids had to recite the pledge to the flag. It is part of life. You will be faced with things that you do not believe in. Either learn to deal with it or we can all throw a hissy fit and go to court each and every time we run into something we find upsetting.

Like it or not, the Chirstian faith is one of the main forces in America, both past and present. Major holidays are Chirstian, yet everyone takes the day off.

If government offices close on Christmas, is this not an endorsement of religion?

Many govenment offices and businesses are closed on Sunday. Is this not an endorsement of religion?

"All men are created equal"- You read this in the core document of our nation. Is this not an endorsement of religion?

Money says "In God we trust" on it.

Like it or not, references to God are everywhere. Most folks who do not believe simply ignore it.

More court battles are in the future.

[KG4CGC]

Quote[/b] (al2n @ Sep. 14 2005,17:35)]Like it or not, the Chirstian faith is one of the main forces in America, both past and present. #Major holidays are Chirstian, yet everyone takes the day off. #
Just a side note on that and nothing more. The major Christian holidays are based on the pagan calendar. They just changed the names of them.

[al2n]

I am aware of the history of the holidays. #Bit more to it than changing names, but they have been Christian holidays for quite some time and are still considered such today.

Even if they were Pagan, taking the day off for them would still be an endorsement of religion.

[ki4llu]

When did the VERY minority take control, why isn't Ralph Nader president, after all, he got some of the minor votes registered. I thought that in a democratic society, that the majority ruled, Bush got more of the vote so he got to be president. Yet we bow to some 1 in 2500 persons and take actions that affect the majority far more than the few that "feel offended by this or that." I want to have 3 Sunday's a week so I can have more days off, but I ain't likely to get it, am I? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[K6BBC]

Quote[/b] (n4ems @ Sep. 14 2005,14:27)]Quote[/b] ]The constitution protects the minority from the tyranny of the majority.


Guns protect the minority from the "tyranny" of the majority.

However, if you feel that the "majority" are to tyranical than perhaps you could move to China or maybe N. Vietnam and than you can harp about tyranny all you want. #(Well, actually, no you couldn't, but the problem would be solved just the same.)
Very nice.

Quote[/b] (n4ems @ Sep. 14 2005,14:09)]I have been quiet about this church/politics thing until now and after reading the posts in here, I feel compelled to post.

Who in the hell do these people think they are? #This country, from its very inception, has had religion, to some extent, factored into it. #History is history.

Now, because some self centered, snobby, I am better than you and you can't make me follow your rules, cry baby, SOB wants to change what MILLIONS have no problem with! #They want to censor what we say, what we read, what we hear and ultimately how we think. #

Should these yahoo's prevail, than where do we draw the line? #Do we declare that the very Declaration of Independence is unconstitutional? #Do we declare that all the laws ever made in the US and in state governments are illegal because they were made in a congressional session (federal or state) that was opened with a prayer, thereby making that session illegal? #Do we censor all the great speeches of the Presidents of the United States that may in some measure made reference to God? #Speaking of Presidents, should we oust Bush, I mean, after all, he took an oath with his hand on the Bible. #That should make it illegal. #I think they even had a prayer, or two, there. #Nope, he has to go.

Ok, this one should get us all fire up. #How about we go into all the national cemeteries and pull out all of the crosses and take down all of the memorials because they make a reference to religion. #Can't have a cross in a national cemetery. #Might offend someone.

They want to control what I do in my life, than, I have a suggestion. #How about we heard up all these useless POS and put them in a box car, crammed as full as we can get them, ship them off to some really friendly place where nice men dressed in black uniforms that have pretty doggies to keep them company can keep watch over the barbed wire and razor fences, (to keep us God fearing people out). #In this really neat place, we can build a REALLY BIG furnace, (to keep them warm in the winter time), and, if they run out of fire wood, well, I think we could find something to throw in there. #Of course, when these useless brain deads get there, they will need a nice shower, to refresh and wash away all the horridness that was cast upon them by some God fearing American. #

Sounds pretty ridiculous? #Sounds pretty familiar to me. #SSDD.

It is time that the VAST MAJORITY of Americans who are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever, stand up and say enough is enough. #In other words, it is time to cater to the masses and NOT to the asses!!!!

Out.

Eric
N4EMS
On one hand-
I could not agree with you more.
On the other hand-
I think WE(as a country)have bigger things to worry about than what a bunch ofGodless,gutless heathens are crying about.I have my faith-I do not try to force it on any athiest they need to quit b!@#$ing about it. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
I know i will probabally get flamed excessively for this but my days of being politically correct are over.

[K6BBC]

Quote[/b] (ki4llu @ Sep. 14 2005,14:49)]When did the VERY minority take control, why isn't Ralph Nader president, after all, he got some of the minor votes registered. I thought that in a democratic society, that the majority ruled, Bush got more of the vote so he got to be president. Yet we bow to some 1 in 2500 persons and take actions that affect the majority far more than the few that "feel offended by this or that." I want to have 3 Sunday's a week so I can have more days off, but I ain't likely to get it, am I? # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Civics 101.

[KG4CGC]

Quote[/b] (al2n @ Sep. 14 2005,17:44)]I am aware of the history of the holidays. #Bit more to it than changing names, but they have been Christian holidays for quite some time and are still considered such today.

Even if they were Pagan, taking the day off for them would still be an endorsement of religion.
Well duh. Just some food for thought for those who are foaming at the mouth over this issue. Not anyone on this forum mind you but our local talk host today went bananas, ape _ _ _ _ over this issue.
The history of religion is for another thread. Maybe I should start it.

[K6BBC]

Quote[/b] (ki4bnc @ Sep. 14 2005,14:49)]Quote[/b] (n4ems @ Sep. 14 2005,14:09)]I have been quiet about this church/politics thing until now and after reading the posts in here, I feel compelled to post.

Who in the hell do these people think they are? #This country, from its very inception, has had religion, to some extent, factored into it. #History is history.

Now, because some self centered, snobby, I am better than you and you can't make me follow your rules, cry baby, SOB wants to change what MILLIONS have no problem with! #They want to censor what we say, what we read, what we hear and ultimately how we think. #

Should these yahoo's prevail, than where do we draw the line? #Do we declare that the very Declaration of Independence is unconstitutional? #Do we declare that all the laws ever made in the US and in state governments are illegal because they were made in a congressional session (federal or state) that was opened with a prayer, thereby making that session illegal? #Do we censor all the great speeches of the Presidents of the United States that may in some measure made reference to God? #Speaking of Presidents, should we oust Bush, I mean, after all, he took an oath with his hand on the Bible. #That should make it illegal. #I think they even had a prayer, or two, there. #Nope, he has to go.

Ok, this one should get us all fire up. #How about we go into all the national cemeteries and pull out all of the crosses and take down all of the memorials because they make a reference to religion. #Can't have a cross in a national cemetery. #Might offend someone.

They want to control what I do in my life, than, I have a suggestion. #How about we heard up all these useless POS and put them in a box car, crammed as full as we can get them, ship them off to some really friendly place where nice men dressed in black uniforms that have pretty doggies to keep them company can keep watch over the barbed wire and razor fences, (to keep us God fearing people out). #In this really neat place, we can build a REALLY BIG furnace, (to keep them warm in the winter time), and, if they run out of fire wood, well, I think we could find something to throw in there. #Of course, when these useless brain deads get there, they will need a nice shower, to refresh and wash away all the horridness that was cast upon them by some God fearing American. #

Sounds pretty ridiculous? #Sounds pretty familiar to me. #SSDD.

It is time that the VAST MAJORITY of Americans who are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever, stand up and say enough is enough. #In other words, it is time to cater to the masses and NOT to the asses!!!!

Out.

Eric
N4EMS
On one hand-
I could not agree with you more.
On the other hand-
I think WE(as a country)have bigger things to worry about than what a bunch ofGodless,gutless heathens are crying about.I have my faith-I do not try to force it on any athiest they need to quit b!@#$ing about it. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Godless=gutless? How's that?

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Sep. 14 2005,14:51)]Quote[/b] (ki4bnc @ Sep. 14 2005,14:49)]Quote[/b] (n4ems @ Sep. 14 2005,14:09)]I have been quiet about this church/politics thing until now and after reading the posts in here, I feel compelled to post.

Who in the hell do these people think they are? #This country, from its very inception, has had religion, to some extent, factored into it. #History is history.

Now, because some self centered, snobby, I am better than you and you can't make me follow your rules, cry baby, SOB wants to change what MILLIONS have no problem with! #They want to censor what we say, what we read, what we hear and ultimately how we think. #

Should these yahoo's prevail, than where do we draw the line? #Do we declare that the very Declaration of Independence is unconstitutional? #Do we declare that all the laws ever made in the US and in state governments are illegal because they were made in a congressional session (federal or state) that was opened with a prayer, thereby making that session illegal? #Do we censor all the great speeches of the Presidents of the United States that may in some measure made reference to God? #Speaking of Presidents, should we oust Bush, I mean, after all, he took an oath with his hand on the Bible. #That should make it illegal. #I think they even had a prayer, or two, there. #Nope, he has to go.

Ok, this one should get us all fire up. #How about we go into all the national cemeteries and pull out all of the crosses and take down all of the memorials because they make a reference to religion. #Can't have a cross in a national cemetery. #Might offend someone.

They want to control what I do in my life, than, I have a suggestion. #How about we heard up all these useless POS and put them in a box car, crammed as full as we can get them, ship them off to some really friendly place where nice men dressed in black uniforms that have pretty doggies to keep them company can keep watch over the barbed wire and razor fences, (to keep us God fearing people out). #In this really neat place, we can build a REALLY BIG furnace, (to keep them warm in the winter time), and, if they run out of fire wood, well, I think we could find something to throw in there. #Of course, when these useless brain deads get there, they will need a nice shower, to refresh and wash away all the horridness that was cast upon them by some God fearing American. #

Sounds pretty ridiculous? #Sounds pretty familiar to me. #SSDD.

It is time that the VAST MAJORITY of Americans who are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever, stand up and say enough is enough. #In other words, it is time to cater to the masses and NOT to the asses!!!!

Out.

Eric
N4EMS
On one hand-
I could not agree with you more.
On the other hand-
I think WE(as a country)have bigger things to worry about than what a bunch ofGodless,gutless heathens are crying about.I have my faith-I do not try to force it on any athiest they need to quit b!@#$ing about it. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Godless=gutless? #How's that?
sorry,you have to look a little closer the punctuation I used was a comma meant to INCLUDE not the equal sign which means the same as.
no godless and gutless mean two different things. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[al2n]

If the pledge had be originally written with under God in it I would have a beef, but it was altered.

Now if this guy takes aim at the Declaration of Independence.... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[K6BBC]

Quote[/b] (ki4bnc @ Sep. 14 2005,14:58)]Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Sep. 14 2005,14:51)]Quote[/b] (ki4bnc @ Sep. 14 2005,14:49)]Quote[/b] (n4ems @ Sep. 14 2005,14:09)]I have been quiet about this church/politics thing until now and after reading the posts in here, I feel compelled to post.

Who in the hell do these people think they are? #This country, from its very inception, has had religion, to some extent, factored into it. #History is history.

Now, because some self centered, snobby, I am better than you and you can't make me follow your rules, cry baby, SOB wants to change what MILLIONS have no problem with! #They want to censor what we say, what we read, what we hear and ultimately how we think. #

Should these yahoo's prevail, than where do we draw the line? #Do we declare that the very Declaration of Independence is unconstitutional? #Do we declare that all the laws ever made in the US and in state governments are illegal because they were made in a congressional session (federal or state) that was opened with a prayer, thereby making that session illegal? #Do we censor all the great speeches of the Presidents of the United States that may in some measure made reference to God? #Speaking of Presidents, should we oust Bush, I mean, after all, he took an oath with his hand on the Bible. #That should make it illegal. #I think they even had a prayer, or two, there. #Nope, he has to go.

Ok, this one should get us all fire up. #How about we go into all the national cemeteries and pull out all of the crosses and take down all of the memorials because they make a reference to religion. #Can't have a cross in a national cemetery. #Might offend someone.

They want to control what I do in my life, than, I have a suggestion. #How about we heard up all these useless POS and put them in a box car, crammed as full as we can get them, ship them off to some really friendly place where nice men dressed in black uniforms that have pretty doggies to keep them company can keep watch over the barbed wire and razor fences, (to keep us God fearing people out). #In this really neat place, we can build a REALLY BIG furnace, (to keep them warm in the winter time), and, if they run out of fire wood, well, I think we could find something to throw in there. #Of course, when these useless brain deads get there, they will need a nice shower, to refresh and wash away all the horridness that was cast upon them by some God fearing American. #

Sounds pretty ridiculous? #Sounds pretty familiar to me. #SSDD.

It is time that the VAST MAJORITY of Americans who are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever, stand up and say enough is enough. #In other words, it is time to cater to the masses and NOT to the asses!!!!

Out.

Eric
N4EMS
On one hand-
I could not agree with you more.
On the other hand-
I think WE(as a country)have bigger things to worry about than what a bunch ofGodless,gutless heathens are crying about.I have my faith-I do not try to force it on any athiest they need to quit b!@#$ing about it. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Godless=gutless? #How's that?
sorry,you have to look a little closer the punctuation I used was a comma meant to INCLUDE not the equal sign which means the same as.
no godless and gutless mean two different things. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Question. Can a godless person be a good person?

[ac4ut]

The problem I believe that exists in such a decision is that it cause so much division and discontent that ,right or wrong, it causes many more problems that it eliminates.
The guy who raised the issue is happy ,but 10,000 hostle guys are ready to hang him.

[al2n]

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Sep. 14 2005,15:09)]Question. #Can a godless person be a good person?
Short answer- Yes.

Long answer-

Good living does not make you close to God (http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=276)

[n0jaa]

More lunatic idiocy. And it comes from Kalifornia, of course!

If people don't like the words "under God" in the Pledge, then they don't have to recite it. Or is that too complicated for the liberal, socialist brain??

Paul, N0JAA.


http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[K6BBC]

Quote[/b] (n0jaa @ Sep. 14 2005,15:18)]More lunatic idiocy. #And it comes from Kalifornia, of course!

If people don't like the words "under God" in the Pledge, then they don't have to recite it. #Or is that too complicated for the liberal, socialist brain??

Paul, N0JAA.


http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Glen, STH, I’m behaving.

[w0aew]

As an atheist, I couldn't care less about the word "god" in the pledge, the motto on coins, or any of the rest of it.

Now, if the state endorses a particular religious belief over another, that would likely lead to a lot more internal strife than we have already.

I don't think we atheists are persecuted in any way in the U.S. Nobody has ever hassled me over the matter.

Anyhow, I have as much fun at christmas as anyone else. Bring on the egg nog, the lit-up trees, the gifts, and all the rest.

[ai4ep]

I dont think a few of you will be so willing to smart off to GOD when you are in front of him...trap door under your feet will possibly open up and dowwwn you will go.

But you can sit in front of your computer monitor and smart off to me & others all you want...just be yourself. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[KA8NCR]

Just a quick question for those who see little problem with the pledge recited every day with "one nation under God", would you feel as strongly if it were "one nation under Allah"?
How about "one nation under Brahma, Vishnu and Siva"? Or perhaps "one nation under Zeus"?

I mean, God is God, right? Or is "their" god different from your god? If it is, then you just found the crux of the problem.

[K6UEY]

I am told that GODs are like a travelling Carnival, once you have seen one ,you have seen them all !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[KG4CGC]

How about just "ONE NATION UNITED, AS A WHOLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL"!

[KG4CGC]

United We Stand, Divided We Fall.

[KG4CGC]

Religion can be divisive, patriotism can be religious.

[K0RGR]

My first problem is with the idea of taking an oath of allegiance in the first place. Our forefathers fought a revolution in order to avoid having to do that. Oaths of allegiance were commonplace in the 18th century, and were the object of scorn by our founding fathers. So having our children recite one in school each day is 100% un-American from the start. Such oaths are a violation of the religious principles of some major religions, too - don't those folks have rights?

As for the 'God/no-God' controversy, we had a kid in my class about 50 years ago whose family was atheist or agnostic, and he was 'compelled' to say the pledge anyway, and I've always felt that was not right. People should not be compelled through peer pressure to say things they don't believe. That is also un-American. I realize that some Christians place their faith above their patriotism, but that is why "under God" doesn't belong in the pledge.

[w0aew]

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Sep. 14 2005,16:16)]I dont think a few of you will be so willing to smart off to GOD when you are in front of him...trap door under your feet will possibly open up and dowwwn you will go.

But you can sit in front of your computer monitor and smart off to me & others all you want...just be yourself. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Uh oh. You may be right.

I made fun of believing in Santy Clause and haven't received any presents since.

And I should never have made those nasty cracks doubting the existence of the Easter rabbit. No colorful eggs for me.

And let's not get into my fatuous remarks about Odin, Thor, or the rest of that pantheon. Who knows what misery has come from those jests.

I just KNEW there had to be a logical explanation for my bad luck. Thanks!

[KG4CGC]

Break any mirros lately OES?

[nx6d]

Quote[/b] (n0jaa @ Sep. 14 2005,14:18)]More lunatic idiocy. #And it comes from Kalifornia, of course!

If people don't like the words "under God" in the Pledge, then they don't have to recite it. #Or is that too complicated for the liberal, socialist brain??

Paul, N0JAA.


http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Well, if you're that strong in your belief, maybe you wouldn't feel the need to cram you religion down other people's throats!

What does this have to do with "liberal/socialism"? What are you talking about?

Keep your religion to yourself and out of government.

It's "California", station. Learn to spell.

Dave WX7B

[KA8NCR]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Sep. 14 2005,16:35)]My first problem is with the idea of taking an oath of allegiance in the first place. Our forefathers fought a revolution in order to avoid having to do that. Oaths of allegiance were commonplace in the 18th century, and were the object of scorn by our founding fathers. So having our children recite one in school each day is 100% un-American from the start. Such oaths are a violation of the religious principles of some major religions, too - don't those folks have rights?

As for the 'God/no-God' controversy, we had a kid in my class about 50 years ago whose family was atheist or agnostic, and he was 'compelled' to say the pledge anyway, and I've always felt that was not right. People should not be compelled through peer pressure to say things they don't believe. That is also un-American. I realize that some Christians place their faith above their patriotism, but that is why "under God" doesn't belong in the pledge.
Post of the day!

Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Sep. 14 2005,16:28)]United We Stand, Divided We Fall.
divide and conquer...
where have I heard that before?
am I the only one that sees past the bovine defication to the root of the plan...I mean problem? Let me run it past 'yall again:
divide and conquer...
think about it. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[KG4CGC]

Quote[/b] (ki4bnc @ Sep. 14 2005,20:02)]Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Sep. 14 2005,16:28)]United We Stand, Divided We Fall.
divide and conquer...
where have I heard that before?
am I the only one that sees past the bovine defication to the root of the plan...I mean problem? Let me run it past 'yall again:
divide and conquer...
think about it. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
If the polarization of our contry is any indication to that idea, then you have made a good point Mr. Hammerskin.
If your avatar does not represent you, then why do you use it. While you have a right to use it. Are you old enough to understand what it stands for? Do you just think it looks cool. Yes, I know the Pink Floyd implication.

[K9STH]

This idea has been posted in the past when the same discussion came up on QRZ.com (people, nothing new is being posted, same arguments, same opinions, same reactions, probably same result - thread gets out of hand and is "shut down"):

Everyone who objects to the the words "In God We Trust" being on United States coins and currency just forward all of the offending material to me. Problem solved!

Glen, K9STH

[K6UEY]

KØRGR,
Where upon I tend to agree GOD has no place in the pledge of allegiance,some people place everything above their patroitism,self interest,greed, immoral and ignorant beliefs, now to me that is un-American.

Whereas they should be thankful for our freedoms,and have respect for those who gave their all to protect those freedoms. I feel you not only have the right to speak out against our leaders,but in times of peace you have a responsibility to speak up.You also have the responsibilty to show good common sense to rally around our flag and present a United front to our enemies.

Ever talk to a police officer about answering a domestic squabble call? They will tell you it is one of the most dangerous of calls to make.If you make the mistake of getting between them you can wind up battling them both.Even in a squabble they can combine forces to put up an undivided front.

What is wrong with the Joe Citizen,who is possibly ill informed, ignorant of the facts,or really doesn't care that much about our country. Why can he not set aside his ignorance for a period and join forces to provide a united front to our enemies ?

History has recorded that troops in the field die needlessly when the enemy is encouraged to continue their fight against our troops.Hanging our dirty laundry in public for the world to see only assures the enemy that their cause is just. We should keep our internal differences to ourselves and express them when the time is right internaly.

When the country is at WAR all the country is at war. You do not have the pleasure of picking the fight you want and sitting out the one you don't prefer. # # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Sep. 14 2005,17:07)]Quote[/b] (ki4bnc @ Sep. 14 2005,20:02)]Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Sep. 14 2005,16:28)]United We Stand, Divided We Fall.
divide and conquer...
where have I heard that before?
am I the only one that sees past the bovine defication to the root of the plan...I mean problem? Let me run it past 'yall again:
divide and conquer...
think about it. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
If the polarization of our contry is any indication to that idea, then you have made a good point Mr. Hammerskin.
# If your avatar does not represent you, then why do you use it. While you have a right to use it. Are you old enough to understand what it stands for? Do you just think it looks cool. Yes, I know the Pink Floyd implication.
catch me on 147.420 tonight or on 146.500 and I'll tell ya all about it.'bout 11:30ish. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


-KI4BNC-

[n0jaa]

Quote[/b] (WA5OES @ Sep. 14 2005,19:12)]As an atheist, I couldn't care less about the word "god" in the pledge, the motto on coins, or any of the rest of it.

Now, if the state endorses a particular religious belief over another, that would likely lead to a lot more internal strife than we have already.

I don't think we atheists are persecuted in any way in the U.S. Nobody has ever hassled me over the matter.

Anyhow, I have as much fun at christmas as anyone else. Bring on the egg nog, the lit-up trees, the gifts, and all the rest.
I have no problem with people believing whatever they wish. #My beliefs are mine, and I will not force them onto others. #Sure, sharing one's belief is okay, but one has to let the other make their own decision about it.

As I said before, if someone doesn't like the "under God" part of the pledge, they don't have to say it. #But don't make it hard for everyone else!


BTW, save me some of that egg nog! # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif


Paul, N0JAA.

[n0jaa]

Quote[/b] ]Well, if you're that strong in your belief, maybe you wouldn't feel the need to cram you religion down other people's throats!


I didn't cram anything down anyone's throat. #If anything, you are doing the cramming. #So go away.

Quote[/b] ]What does this have to do with "liberal/socialism"? What are you talking about?

Keep your religion to yourself and out of government.



I don't recall once mentioning "religion" in my post. #Again, you are trying to put words in my mouth. #And I'll do what I like about my "religion." #I don't take orders from you!

BTW, if I want to interject religion into government, I will. #Or have you forgotten about that portion of the First Amendment that GUARANTEES me the right to practice my religious beliefs??

BTW, this have EVERYTHING to do with liberalism/socialism. #the liberal socialists want to do away with religion altogether and create a society where everyone is under the "protection" of "Big Brother," and no one can do or say anything without BIG government's say-so. #Read Karl Marx's "Communist Manifesto" sometime and reference it to George Orwell's "1984."

Quote[/b] ]It's "California", station. Learn to spell. #


I spelled it correctly the first time.

Paul, N0JAA.

[KA8NCR]

Quote[/b] (n0jaa @ Sep. 14 2005,17:32)]BTW, this have EVERYTHING to do with liberalism/socialism. the liberal socialists want to do away with religion altogether and create a society where everyone is under the "protection" of "Big Brother," and no one can do or say anything without BIG government's say-so. Read Karl Marx's "Communist Manifesto" sometime and reference it to George Orwell's "1984."
You must really hate Bush and his facscist cronies who have reduced civil liberties. The Patriot act doesn't go that far, but it certainly lets the government check up on you with or without cause. And forget due process, they label you as a terrorist and you're simply gone.

[K0RGR]

UEY - I don't see how I honor the thing that the founding fathers created by having people recite an oath I don't think they would have required.

Here is part of Noah Webster's commentary on Article 6 of the Constitution:

The time will come (and may the day be near!) when all test laws, oaths of allegiance, abjuration, and partial exclusions from civil offices, will be proscribed from this land of freedom.

Americans! what was the origin of these discriminations? What is their use?

They originated in savage ignorance, and they are the instruments of slavery. Emperors and generals, who wished to attach their subjects to their persons and government; who wished to exercise despotic sway over them or prosecute villainous wars, (for mankind have always been butchering each other) found the solemnity of oaths had an excellent effect on poor superstitious soldiers and vassals; oracles, demons, eclipses; all the terrifying phenomena of nature, have at times had remarkable effects in securing the obedience of men to tyrants. Oaths of fealty, and farcical ceremonies of homage, were very necessary to rivet the chains of feudal vassals; for the whole system of European tenures was erected on usurpation, and is supported solely by ignorance, superstition, artifice, or military force. Oaths of allegiance may possibly be still necessary in Europe, where there are so many contending powers contiguous to each other: But what is their use in America? To secure fidelity to the State, it will be answered. But where is the danger of defection? Will the inhabitants join the British in Nova Scotia or Canada? Will they rebel? Will they join the savages, and overthrow the State? No; all these are visionary dangers. My countrymen, if a State has any thing to fear from its inhabitants, the constitution or the laws must be wrong. Danger cannot possibly arise from any other cause.

My own ancestors are listed in the DAR's list of patriots, oddly enough because they signed an oath of allegiance to the winning side in the revolution. Those who weren't so lucky went to Canada.

I celebrate my patriotism on 4th of July, Memorial Day, Veteran's Day, Flag Day, and every other occasion I can. This town I live in has celebrations for returning soldiers from Iraq and Afghanistan - do they do that out there on the left coast? I don't need to swear my allegiance every day, and my Hindu neighbors don't need to acknowledge some God they don't believe in, either.

[KG6JTB]

Quote[/b] ]I don't think we atheists are persecuted in any way in the U.S. Nobody has ever hassled me over the matter.


Oh, then I'll send the Jehovah's Witnesses over to your neighborhood to give you an earfull.

Dave
KG6JTB

[KI6ADA]

OK we didn't want to pay our taxes to the King, but we also agreed to freedom of religon and freedom of speech. Most Americans, let me remind you I said most, practice some form of God in their lives. We know deep down inside ourselves that we are lucky to be here in America and enjoy the freedoms. If some fool is not happy about what his God has given him than pity. Don't make the rest of us feel sorry for you. I will always keep God in my life and worship him in public as I want. Yes, I beleive God had some hand by placing the faith in our forefathers to establish this great Country-AMERICA. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[AC0H]

Quote[/b] ]Now if this guy takes aim at the Declaration of Independence
Think it's not next?
The next time the Declaration of Independence is read in a class room anywhere I expect to see BBC and the rest of the socially insecure atheists among us filing suit. The document is rife with references to God, "our creator", or a deity.

Who are the people spewing hate and vitriol using verbage like VULNERABLE, BRAINWASHED, INDOCTRINATED, INTOLERANCE?

Not the defenders of the pledge, this comes from the supposedly more reasonable and tolerant religon-o-phobes among us.

Why the irrational hatred of anything religious?

Anyone who has such a problem with saying two words in the pledge of allegiance has some serious paranoia issues and is need of counseling. I don't know, maybe the dog refused to play with them when they were kids.

[AC0H]

Quote[/b] ]You must really hate Bush and his facscist cronies who have reduced civil liberties. #The Patriot act doesn't go that far, but it certainly lets the government check up on you with or without cause. #And forget due process, they label you as a terrorist and you're simply gone.

Not true.
Name one instance where someones civil liberties were violated by the government using the patriot act. No rumors or things you've HEARD, just name one.

[ka5s]

Quote[/b] (AK7V @ Sep. 14 2005,13:21)]I don't think kids care unless they're told to. #This is more of a grown-up issue, even though they don't say the pledge every day like school kids.

When I was in school, reciting the pledge was a generally meaningless exercise about which I gave no thought. #Take that for what you will - I don't think I was anomolous. #All of my athiest/agnostic friends grew up saying the "under God" part, too. #I don't think it effected us either way. #Upbringing by parents is way more of a factor. #

It's kind of like the athiest/boy scout issue. #The kid probably didn't mind saying God now and then because a) he didn't really care, and b) he got to start fires and do all the other cool stuff scouts get to do. #The parents are the ones who had a problem and ruined their kids fun because of it.

That sad, I would be fine with the pledge dropping the G word. #It isn't going to make a difference.
I must have pledged allegiance using the old words, because I was already in schoool when they were hanged. But I don't remember even noticing. Everyone else was fine and who was I to disagree?

The really odd thing is, no one has sued about exchange students and children of foreigners temporarily resident in the US being pressured into pledging allegiance to a flag not their own. Swearing allegiance to a foreign nation used to a quick route to losing one's US citizenship.

"...in the name of the great Jehovah and the Continental Congress!" (Ethan Allen) went out of use some time ago. More to the point, would we make a clasroom start each day with a prayer "in Jesus' name?" We would not, though we often used to.

Keep it or drop it; omitting those two words will not make us worse. How could they? They did not make us better.


Cortland
KA5S

[ac4ut]

Quote[/b] (AC0H @ Sep. 15 2005,04:59)]Quote[/b] ]You must really hate Bush and his facscist cronies who have reduced civil liberties. #The Patriot act doesn't go that far, but it certainly lets the government check up on you with or without cause. #And forget due process, they label you as a terrorist and you're simply gone.

Not true.
Name one instance where someones civil liberties were violated by the government using the patriot act. No rumors or things you've HEARD, just name one.
If you can be arrested for not dusting off your Paragon then I am in trouble under the Patriot Act.
Otherwise, they can snoop all they want I got nothing interesting to look at.
Wife won't let me keep porn in the house either.

[G8ADD]

Quote[/b] (al2n @ Sep. 14 2005,14:35)]Money says "In God we trust" on it.
I'd forgotten that your money carries that motto (well its not the stuff that jingles in my pocket) it gives more humour to a motto in a pub I used to frequent. "In God we Trust, everybody else pays cash".

Seriously, whilst such an oath is not the custom over here (and isn't that ironic in view of some of the historic reminders in this thread) it is clear to me that the point is that the oath is taken, without quibbling too much about the fine details. The key words don't change and they are what count most. You reaffirm your allegiance to your country, as is right and proper, the rest is trivial by comparison. Or as a friendly alien am I missing the resonances of the words that must be second nature to you guys?

73

Brian G8ADD

[KA8NCR]

Quote[/b] (AC0H @ Sep. 15 2005,04:59)]Quote[/b] ]You must really hate Bush and his facscist cronies who have reduced civil liberties. The Patriot act doesn't go that far, but it certainly lets the government check up on you with or without cause. And forget due process, they label you as a terrorist and you're simply gone.

Not true.
Name one instance where someones civil liberties were violated by the government using the patriot act. No rumors or things you've HEARD, just name one.
Go google "patriot act+civil liberties" and have a day. Plenty of stories of government surveilance on people expressing first amendment rights, or supression of rights through government action. But what do you expect from the likes of John Ashcroft who said that those who "question the government are giving aid to the enemy" and criticism of government gives "comfort to the enemy".

The Patriot Act is a power grab by the government to subvert the Constitution. Apparently, you have already been fitted for your jackboots.

[n0ov]

Quote[/b] (KB9YCO @ Sep. 13 2005,13:20)]Here we go again. If the original pledge would not have been altered by people other than the author we wouldn't have this problem. In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, and in the anti-commie McCarthy fervor, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer which automatically persecuted people of other beliefs and atheists and agnostics. What we should be doing is returning the pledge to it's original form and quit all this divisivness. What a waste of time, and tax payer money having this come up in court over and over.
Brett

I disagree.

This is a classic example of crazies from the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia taking things to the extreme.

If they focused the same amount of attention on crime and employement as they do on this issue that state would have a heck of a lot less problems.

Many of the ideas they are trying to ban is the actual foundation of the laws our founding fathers used to create this land. #The original separation of Church and State was to ensure one specific Church would not exercise complete control over the government. #I do not believe it was intended as a weapon the ACLU could use to ban religion out right.

Sanity check -- the pledge is part of this countries heritage. It is not a prayer of anytype. However, with all the shootings, gangs and other uglyness occuring in the world today, perhaps the 10 Commandments should be REQUIRED READING along with the pledge.

[ac4ut]

Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ Sep. 15 2005,07:14)]Quote[/b] (al2n @ Sep. 14 2005,14:35)]Money says "In God we trust" on it.
I'd forgotten that your money carries that motto (well its not the stuff that jingles in my pocket) it gives more humour to a motto in a pub I used to frequent. "In God we Trust, everybody else pays cash".

Seriously, whilst such an oath is not the custom over here (and isn't that ironic in view of some of the historic reminders in this thread) it is clear to me that the point is that the oath is taken, without quibbling too much about the fine details. The key words don't change and they are what count most. You reaffirm your allegiance to your country, as is right and proper, the rest is trivial by comparison. Or as a friendly alien am I missing the resonances of the words that must be second nature to you guys?

73

Brian G8ADD
I take your line of thinking. It could be compared somewhat to an oath of marriage.
You perform the ceremony and obtain the document but it means little if you are a cheating scum bag at heart.
Words mean very little if not spoken with conviction.

[W2LYS]

Why is it that one man and two families get to dictate to the vast majority of this country their beliefs?

Besides, if you're going to remove all trace of God or religion from our government, you'll have a lot of work to do...

God in the Temples of Government (http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=2441)

[nx6d]

Wow, the sound you hear is JAA making a loud "splash" off the deep end...

Quote[/b] ]I don't recall once mentioning "religion" in my post. #Again, you are trying to put words in my mouth. #And I'll do what I like about my "religion." #I don't take orders from you!


Ok, so then what is "God" if it isn't religion? You're right, you don't take orders from me. Conversely, no reference to God or religion should be dictated by YOU just because you believe.

Why can't you zealots get that straight?

Quote[/b] ]BTW, if I want to interject religion into government, I will. #Or have you forgotten about that portion of the First Amendment that GUARANTEES me the right to practice my religious beliefs??


You can practice your religion all you want. Just keep it out of any government functions where it forces ME to practice YOUR religion. Pretty simple concept.

Quote[/b] ]BTW, this have EVERYTHING to do with liberalism/socialism. #the liberal socialists want to do away with religion altogether and create a society where everyone is under the "protection" of "Big Brother," and no one can do or say anything without BIG government's say-so. #Read Karl Marx's "Communist Manifesto" sometime and reference it to George Orwell's "1984."


Are you also channeling Joe McCarthy along with UEY? What a bunch of nonsense.

What about the "Patriot Act"? It's sponsored by your beloved conservative Republicans. It's pretty much "big brother" right there in front of you. Where's your outrage about that? Or is it easier to spout antique cold war cliches...

Quote[/b] ]It's "California", station. Learn to spell. #


I spelled it correctly the first time.


Wrong again. Have you even BEEN here? Probably not. I've been to Florida before and I have some opinions about that place. I choose not to trash someone else's home (based on my impressions) just to make a cheap political point.

Dave WX7B

[ac3p]

Quote[/b] ]But where is the danger of defection? Will the inhabitants join the British in Nova Scotia or Canada? Will they rebel? Will they join the savages, and overthrow the State? No; all these are visionary dangers. My countrymen, if a State has any thing to fear from its inhabitants, the constitution or the laws must be wrong. Danger cannot possibly arise from any other cause.


Mr. Webster must havs said this before the unpleasantries on 1861-1865.

As I recall the Confederates had to take an oath of allegiance before re-admittance to the Union.

By the way, it seems that if they were being re-admitted, that the right of secession did exist.

[K9STH]

3P:

Your statement "By the way, it seems that if they were being re-admitted, that the right of secession did exist.", was the just the "result" of the Johnson administration (Andrew Johnson, not Lyndon B. Johnson) "making sure" that the previous members of the Confederate States of America forces were going to be loyal to the United States of America.

The swearing of allegence had nothing to do with secession. Now the fact that all of the eleven states that had seceeded were made to have to apply for readmission to the Union is another matter (although the Confederate battle flag and the naval jack had thirteen stars only eleven states seceded - the other two were for Kentucky and Missouri which did not secede). The "radical Republican" Congress decided that all eleven states needed to be formally readmitted to the Union even though the same legislative bodies had said that secession was not possible in the first place.

However, remember, that in general, the victors in a war get to make the "new" rules whether or not they really "make sense".

Glen, K9STH

[kf6rdn]

Quote[/b] (w0pee @ Sep. 15 2005,08:03)]If they focused the same amount of attention on crime and employement as they do on this issue that state would have a heck of a lot less problems.
Maybe, but if the FEDERAL goverment did ITS job of securing our FRIGGIN borders, we would have alot less of the one, and more of the other.

[K6BBC]

An interesting and lively debate.

I have a strong feeling that when this comes before the supreme court, it will be upheld. I have a feeling the new chief will come down on the side of the lower courts on this one.

K6BBC

[K6BBC]

Quote[/b] (kf6rdn @ Sep. 15 2005,09:29)]Quote[/b] (w0pee @ Sep. 15 2005,08:03)]If they focused the same amount of attention on crime and employement as they do on this issue that state would have a heck of a lot less problems.
Maybe, but if the FEDERAL goverment did ITS job of securing our FRIGGIN borders, we would have alot less of the one, and more of the other.
Bush and company are more interested in securing cheap labor than securing our boarders. If one were to follow the money, I am sure lots of bucks have passed hands from those who benefit from illegal immigration to those who get their employment from the government. And I am sure the democrats are as dirty as the Republicans.

Who really represents us – the people?

K6BBC

[ac4ut]

Quote[/b] (ac3p @ Sep. 15 2005,09:09)]Quote[/b] ]But where is the danger of defection? Will the inhabitants join the British in Nova Scotia or Canada? Will they rebel? Will they join the savages, and overthrow the State? No; all these are visionary dangers. My countrymen, if a State has any thing to fear from its inhabitants, the constitution or the laws must be wrong. Danger cannot possibly arise from any other cause.


Mr. Webster must havs said this before the unpleasantries on 1861-1865.

As I recall the Confederates had to take an oath of allegiance before re-admittance to the Union.

By the way, it seems that if they were being re-admitted, that the right of secession did exist.
I will wait to be corrected ,but I believe Tennessee which had hesitation about the division anyway, rejoined the union so quickly the we escaped reconstruction and the other hardships and formalities of that era.
Of course I am not old enough to remember.

[AC0H]

Quote[/b] ]Go google "patriot act+civil liberties" and have a day. #Plenty of stories of government surveilance on people expressing first amendment rights, or supression of rights through government action. #But what do you expect from the likes of John Ashcroft who said that those who "question the government are giving aid to the enemy" and criticism of government gives "comfort to the enemy".

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Hillarious!

People don't express first amendment rights they have first amendment rights. If those people are preaching terrorism and sedition do you not believe they should be under surveillance of some sort? We just spent how many millions of dollars and countless months on the 9/11 commission. Not a single commissioner advocated getting rid of the patriot act.

I'll bet your one of those hypocrits who complained and bitched about security after 9/11 too.

[n0jaa]

Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Sep. 14 2005,19:28)]How about just "ONE NATION UNITED, AS A WHOLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL"!
How about this one? "One nation, united under one banner..."


Paul, N0JAA.

[K6BBC]

Quote[/b] (n0jaa @ Sep. 15 2005,11:08)]Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Sep. 14 2005,19:28)]How about just "ONE NATION UNITED, AS A WHOLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL"!
How about this one? #"One nation, united under one banner..."


Paul, N0JAA.
How about "one nation that speaks ENGLISH"

[al2n]

Quote[/b] ]U.S. Constitution - Amendment 1

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



Do the words under god constitute a law respecting an establishment of religion?

If the words are removed, is that not a law respecting the athiest religion over others?

Athseim has been ruled in court to be a religion for legal purposes.

[ac4ut]

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Sep. 15 2005,11:33)]Quote[/b] (n0jaa @ Sep. 15 2005,11:08)]Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Sep. 14 2005,19:28)]How about just "ONE NATION UNITED, AS A WHOLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL"!
How about this one? #"One nation, united under one banner..."


Paul, N0JAA.
How about "one nation that speaks ENGLISH"
I got one!
One nation under educated with the liberty to screw and blame someone else.

[ai4ep]

...any one that does NOT like the way the border patrol does their job should go do it theirselves...with NO pay / benefits / holidays. etc.

They are just like the FCC ...they do the least amount of work they can get by with, and what they DO actually do has to been nearly forced upon them. If you think for half a second that YOU as an individual can do a better job, then do it yourself.

Those border patrols have families to tend to, their own health problems, bills to pay, constant criticism from the public ( too lenient / too strict ).

So if you think you can do a better job , then go do it.

If not, just sit behind that keyboard and whine.

[K9STH]

UT:

A good part of Tennessee (and quite a bit of north Geogria as well) were very staunch in their support for the Union. Also, secession failed on the first ballot in North Carolina. The secessionist members of the legislature had to come up with some very "clever" maneuvering to get the bill passed. Of course the majority in the western portion of Virginia also were unionists thus resulting in the creation of the State of West Virginia.

A number of the counties in north central Texas voted to remain in the Union as did two down near San Antonio.

It can be noted that every state in the Union furnished organized military units to both sides during the Civil War. Several of the northern states only contributed a few units of about company strength (approximately 100 soldiers) but some of the "border" states contributed regiment sized (about 1000 men) or greater. Every one of the states that comprised the Confederacy contributed at least one regimental sized unit and usually several to the Union cause.

Although there were definitely persons in the North who believed that the South was "right", the number of persons in the South that did not approve of secession was substantially greater than those in the North that did favor secession.

The South was doomed from the start in the fact that they did not have any real industrial base. About 97 percent of the weapons manufacture in the United States was in the states that remained in the Union, about 90 percent of the railroad heavy manufacturing (engine building) was in the North, and so on. The South actually believed that Europe's need for cotton would bring those countries into the fray on the side of the Confederacy. Unfortunately, there had been a "glut" of cotton for two years previous and the textile manufacturers in Europe had several years supply on hand. Also, India was starting to produce cotton and the British could get cotton at a much lower price from their colonies in India.

Another thing which is not generally known is that Britain and France (among other countries) were importing wheat from the United States in large quantities. Of course most of this was coming from the midwestern states which remained in the Union. Even if those countries had needed cotton (which they basically did not) they relied on wheat from the United States to feed their populations. The result is that none of the European countries wanted to "bite the hand that feeds".

When Lincoln issued the emancipation proclimation (effective 1 January 1863) that "cut the legs out from under" the Confederacy because there were very powerful abolitionist movements especially in Great Britain and to a lesser extent in France. The government of neither country was willing to go against the wishes of those organizations.

Anyway, when the subject "touches" on either the Amercian Civil War or World War II things get into areas in which I have a great personal interest.

Glen, K9STH

[ac4ut]

The county that I reside in was Union sympathetic. I have often wondered what would have happened if Lee had marched on into Washington when he had the upper hand and forced a settlement.
What kind of nation would we be living in now if Lincoln had to reach a compromise in the earlier part of the war?

[n0ov]

Quote[/b] (kf6rdn @ Sep. 14 2005,10:29)]Quote[/b] (w0pee @ Sep. 15 2005,08:03)]If they focused the same amount of attention on crime and employement as they do on this issue that state would have a heck of a lot less problems.
Maybe, but if the FEDERAL goverment did ITS job of securing our FRIGGIN borders, we would have alot less of the one, and more of the other.
And am I suppose to argue with you on that?

I agree!

[n0ov]

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Sep. 14 2005,12:33)]Quote[/b] (n0jaa @ Sep. 15 2005,11:08)]Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Sep. 14 2005,19:28)]How about just "ONE NATION UNITED, AS A WHOLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL"!
How about this one? #"One nation, united under one banner..."


Paul, N0JAA.
How about "one nation that speaks ENGLISH"
How about One Nation, Under God, and if you don't like it go to HE!!

Quote[/b] (al2n @ Sep. 15 2005,11:35)]Quote[/b] ]U.S. Constitution - Amendment 1

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



Do the words under god constitute a law respecting an establishment of religion?

If the words are removed, is that not a law respecting the athiest religion over others?

Athseim has been ruled in court to be a religion for legal purposes.
Smartest thing I have read in this topic so far. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[nx6d]

Quote[/b] (ki4bnc @ Sep. 15 2005,11:43)]Quote[/b] (al2n @ Sep. 15 2005,11:35)]Quote[/b] ]U.S. Constitution - Amendment 1

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



Do the words under god constitute a law respecting an establishment of religion?

If the words are removed, is that not a law respecting the athiest religion over others?

Athseim has been ruled in court to be a religion for legal purposes.
Smartest thing I have read in this topic so far. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
"Atheism" is not a religion. Mr. Hammerskin. There's nothing "smart" about this comment at all.

AL2N's theory is a complete reach. I don't know of ANY cases that describe "atheism" as a religion.

Get extremely real.

Dave WX7B

Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Sep. 15 2005,12:46)]Quote[/b] (ki4bnc @ Sep. 15 2005,11:43)]Quote[/b] (al2n @ Sep. 15 2005,11:35)]Quote[/b] ]U.S. Constitution - Amendment 1

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



Do the words under god constitute a law respecting an establishment of religion?

If the words are removed, is that not a law respecting the athiest religion over others?

Athseim has been ruled in court to be a religion for legal purposes.
Smartest thing I have read in this topic so far. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
"Atheism" is not a religion. Mr. Hammerskin. There's nothing "smart" about this comment at all.

AL2N's theory is a complete reach. I don't know of ANY cases that describe "atheism" as a religion.

Get extremely real.

Dave WX7B
as far as "mr hammerskin" you may adress me by my callsign.
or jason
or bnc
or I have even been called
"RAT"
(I work in a lab)
thankyou.
oh yeah I almost forgot,A freind of mine up the road said that your wife was haaving vision problems.did the docs get it figured out yet? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[al2n]

Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Sep. 15 2005,12:46)]Quote[/b] (ki4bnc @ Sep. 15 2005,11:43)]Quote[/b] (al2n @ Sep. 15 2005,11:35)]Quote[/b] ]U.S. Constitution - Amendment 1

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



Do the words under god constitute a law respecting an establishment of religion?

If the words are removed, is that not a law respecting the athiest religion over others?

Athseim has been ruled in court to be a religion for legal purposes.
Smartest thing I have read in this topic so far. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
"Atheism" is not a religion. Mr. Hammerskin. There's nothing "smart" about this comment at all.

AL2N's theory is a complete reach. I don't know of ANY cases that describe "atheism" as a religion.

Get extremely real.

Dave WX7B
I am extremely real Dave. It is not a reach.

Here is the link from the athiest.org website.


Athiesim is a religion for legal purposes court rules (http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/court36.htm)

They are not happy about it, but it has been ruled a religion.

[nx6d]

Quote[/b] (ki4bnc @ Sep. 15 2005,12:02)]Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Sep. 15 2005,12:46)]Quote[/b] (ki4bnc @ Sep. 15 2005,11:43)]Quote[/b] (al2n @ Sep. 15 2005,11:35)]Quote[/b] ]U.S. Constitution - Amendment 1

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



Do the words under god constitute a law respecting an establishment of religion?

If the words are removed, is that not a law respecting the athiest religion over others?

Athseim has been ruled in court to be a religion for legal purposes.
Smartest thing I have read in this topic so far. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
"Atheism" is not a religion. Mr. Hammerskin. There's nothing "smart" about this comment at all.

AL2N's theory is a complete reach. I don't know of ANY cases that describe "atheism" as a religion.

Get extremely real.

Dave WX7B
as far as "mr hammerskin" you may adress me by my callsign.
or jason
or bnc
or I have even been called
"RAT"
(I work in a lab)
thankyou.
oh yeah I almost forgot,A freind of mine up the road said that your wife was haaving vision problems.did the docs get it figured out yet? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Old insult, Mr. Hamm...uh, BNC.

That one has been used before, by other stations. It's complete loserspeak. If you want to insult me, fine. Leave my wife out of it.

You didn't address my other comments. Why did you choose to make an attack instead of addressing what I said?

Dave WX7B

[nx6d]

Quote[/b] (al2n @ Sep. 15 2005,12:02)]Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Sep. 15 2005,12:46)]Quote[/b] (ki4bnc @ Sep. 15 2005,11:43)]Quote[/b] (al2n @ Sep. 15 2005,11:35)]Quote[/b] ]U.S. Constitution - Amendment 1

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



Do the words under god constitute a law respecting an establishment of religion?

If the words are removed, is that not a law respecting the athiest religion over others?

Athseim has been ruled in court to be a religion for legal purposes.
Smartest thing I have read in this topic so far. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
"Atheism" is not a religion. Mr. Hammerskin. There's nothing "smart" about this comment at all.

AL2N's theory is a complete reach. I don't know of ANY cases that describe "atheism" as a religion.

Get extremely real.

Dave WX7B
I am extremely real Dave. #It is not a reach.

Here is the link from the athiest.org website.


Athiesim is a religion for legal purposes court rules (http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/court36.htm)

They are not happy about it, but it has been ruled a religion.
Thanks for the link.

The "extremely real" comment was directed at Mr. H,er BNC, not you.

I'll get back to you on after I have a chance to look at this en toto.

Atheism as a religion? How does THAT work?

Dave WX7B

[K6BBC]

Quote[/b] (w0pee @ Sep. 15 2005,12:35)]Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Sep. 14 2005,12:33)]Quote[/b] (n0jaa @ Sep. 15 2005,11:08)]Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Sep. 14 2005,19:28)]How about just "ONE NATION UNITED, AS A WHOLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL"!
How about this one? #"One nation, united under one banner..."


Paul, N0JAA.
How about "one nation that speaks ENGLISH"
How about One Nation, Under God, and if you don't like it go to HE!!
No, I'm sorry. I believe the universe is controled by a dead pigeon I saw in the road.

[al2n]

Quote[/b] ]Main Entry: re·li·gion

Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY

1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS

4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith



From Merriam-Webster Online


Seems that definition 4 would fit Athiesm nicely.

[al2i]

If there is a great Boggle looking in on our Universe, then I want to personally thank it for fermenting yeasts. That prayer at least, was answered. Guinness put the little nitrogen capsule in my can to make it seem like it is from the tap. I thank Guinness for that.

Dave/al2i

[n0ov]

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Sep. 14 2005,14:19)]Quote[/b] (w0pee @ Sep. 15 2005,12:35)]Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Sep. 14 2005,12:33)]Quote[/b] (n0jaa @ Sep. 15 2005,11:08)]Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Sep. 14 2005,19:28)]How about just "ONE NATION UNITED, AS A WHOLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL"!
How about this one? #"One nation, united under one banner..."


Paul, N0JAA.
How about "one nation that speaks ENGLISH"
How about One Nation, Under God, and if you don't like it go to HE!!
No, I'm sorry. #I believe the universe is controled by a dead pigeon I saw in the road.
That's ok.

Won't be the first time someone stood out side of those pearly gates saying, "Oh Crap, guess I got this one wrong."

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[K6BBC]

Quote[/b] (w0pee @ Sep. 15 2005,13:37)]Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Sep. 14 2005,14:19)]Quote[/b] (w0pee @ Sep. 15 2005,12:35)]Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Sep. 14 2005,12:33)]Quote[/b] (n0jaa @ Sep. 15 2005,11:08)]Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ Sep. 14 2005,19:28)]How about just "ONE NATION UNITED, AS A WHOLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL"!
How about this one? #"One nation, united under one banner..."


Paul, N0JAA.
How about "one nation that speaks ENGLISH"
How about One Nation, Under God, and if you don't like it go to HE!!
No, I'm sorry. #I believe the universe is controled by a dead pigeon I saw in the road.
That's ok. #

Won't be the first time someone stood out side of those pearly gates saying, "Oh Crap, guess I got this one wrong."

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
The arrogance of you Christians is astounding.

Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Sep. 15 2005,13:08)]Quote[/b] (ki4bnc @ Sep. 15 2005,12:02)]Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Sep. 15 2005,12:46)]Quote[/b] (ki4bnc @ Sep. 15 2005,11:43)]Quote[/b] (al2n @ Sep. 15 2005,11:35)]Quote[/b] ]U.S. Constitution - Amendment 1

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



Do the words under god constitute a law respecting an establishment of religion?

If the words are removed, is that not a law respecting the athiest religion over others?

Athseim has been ruled in court to be a religion for legal purposes.
Smartest thing I have read in this topic so far. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
"Atheism" is not a religion. Mr. Hammerskin. There's nothing "smart" about this comment at all.

AL2N's theory is a complete reach. I don't know of ANY cases that describe "atheism" as a religion.

Get extremely real.

Dave WX7B
as far as "mr hammerskin" you may adress me by my callsign.
or jason
or bnc
or I have even been called
"RAT"
(I work in a lab)
thankyou.
oh yeah I almost forgot,A freind of mine up the road said that your wife was haaving vision problems.did the docs get it figured out yet? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Old insult, Mr. Hamm...uh, BNC.

That one has been used before, by other stations. #It's complete loserspeak. If you want to insult me, fine. Leave my wife out of it.

You didn't address my other comments. Why did you choose to make an attack instead of addressing what I said?

Dave WX7B
Didn't know it was an insult.Just trying to pass along something positive.
yeah,check the link(now that we are back on the TOPIC at hand)seems pretty straight forward to me.
atheisim should be a religion -a beleif of nothing.
real intelligent.
this is not an attack.
only adressing what you said, Mr.kalifornia http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Sep. 15 2005,13:53)]The arrogance of you Christians is astounding.
Two comments.

1) BBC, your comment is even more arrogant. Your premise has been that Christians are lunatics for some time. I think the needles in your face are affecting your attitude.

2) I hope you are equally tough on all religions, because modern Christians at least, are usually civilized citizens. Why pick on Christians? I wish there were more of them.

Dave/al2i

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Sep. 15 2005,14:03)]Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Sep. 15 2005,13:53)]The arrogance of you Christians is astounding.
Two comments.

1) BBC, your comment is even more arrogant. #Your premise has been that Christians are lunatics for some time. #I think the needles in your face are affecting your attitude.

2) I hope you are equally tough on all religions, because modern Christians at least, are usually civilized citizens. #Why pick on Christians? #I wish there were more of them.

Dave/al2i
AMEN! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[al2i]

I am an atheist, and I think my belief should be treated just as respectfully as anyone who believes in a great Boggle.

Dave/al2i

[K6BBC]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Sep. 15 2005,14:03)]Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Sep. 15 2005,13:53)]The arrogance of you Christians is astounding.
Two comments.

1) BBC, your comment is even more arrogant. #Your premise has been that Christians are lunatics for some time. #I think the needles in your face are affecting your attitude.

2) I hope you are equally tough on all religions, because modern Christians at least, are usually civilized citizens. #Why pick on Christians? #I wish there were more of them.

Dave/al2i
I apologize. I should have said “some” Christians. However, it is astoundingly arrogant to believe ones beliefs are the only true path to salvation. And, unfortunately this arrogance affect the way many countries and people are governed. The world would be much better off without religion because frankly I don’t see much good coming from it and plenty of bad.

I would like to see more secular humanist.

With all due respect.

As for the pins, it’s just acupuncture – ever heard of it?

K6BBC

[al2i]

I plan to get religion just before I die, and am studying for the "quick conversion". That way I will be so busy converting that I hope not to notice I have actually died.

My plan is ruthlessly logical. If I wake up in hell I only have one comment: "What the h...?!"

Dave/al2i

[N3ATS]

After 10 pages, I cannot believe that anyone has not pointed out how this ruling is unconsitutional!

Quote[/b] ]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech....

First off, you do NOT have to recite the pledge in school, or even stand for it. It IS completely optional. Yes, that's right!

Secondly, the pledge is NOT a legislative measure (law) that (according to Amendment numero uno), that respects (promotes) the establishment of religion. Is the pledge have religious attributes? Absolutey. Is it a law? Nope.

Next, where does the government get off telling me I can or cannot say GOD? Sounds to me that this decision is in violation of ol' #1. The decision prohibits the free exercise of religion.

Finally, is this whole thing not some sort of censorship? Don't like the pledge? Fine, don't participate.

When will the government decide that television shows that depict sex and violence are coercive, and damaging to the children's (oh, there it is, the children!) right to be free from such travesties? I think blood and guts violence should be taken off the telly at ONCE! Shouldn't we protect the children from that? For God's sake, protect the children!

I will protect my child, thank you very much. Given the government's track record in F'ing up just about every thing they touch, I will take responsibilty for my children.

I am surprise that the leftists would embrace such a ruling given their history for championing personal freedoms. It wonders me that atheists and agnostics, who DENY the very existence of a higher power, get so upset over it! LMAO! What's next, no talk about the Great Pumpkin Charlie Brown?

As a Libertarian I think this is just another attempt by big brother to erode our consitutional rights.

No one is making you say the "G" word, okay? Relax...



EDITED for grammar, typos, and spelling...

Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Sep. 15 2005,14:28)]After 10 pages, I cannot believe that anyone has not pointed out how this ruling is unconsitutional! #

Quote[/b] ]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech....

First off, you do NOT have to recite the pledge in school, or even stand for it. #It IS completely optional. #Yes, that's right!

Secondly, the pledge is NOT a legislative measure (law) that (according to Amendment numero uno), that respects (promotes) the establishment of religion. #Is the pledge have religious attributes? #Absolutey. #Is it a law? #Nope.

Next, where does the government get off telling me I can or cannot say GOD? # Sounds to me that this decision is in violation of ol' #1. #The decision prohibits the free exercise of religion. #

Finally, is this whole thing not some sort of censorship? #Don't like the pledge? #Fine, don't participate. # #

When will the government decide that television shows that depict sex and violence are coercive, and damaging to the children's (oh, there it is, the children!) right to be free from such travesties? #I think blood and guts violence should be taken off the telly at ONCE! #Shouldn't we protect the children from that? #For God's sake, protect the children! #

I will protect my child, thank you very much. #Given the government's track record in F'ing up just about every thing they touch, I will take responsibilty for my children.

I am surprise that the leftists would embrace such a ruling given their history for championing personal freedoms. #It wonders me that atheists and agnostics, who DENY the very existence of a higher power, get so upset over it! #LMAO! #What's next, no talk about the Great Pumpkin Charlie Brown?

As a Libertarian I think this is just another attempt by big brother to erode our consitutional rights.

No one is making you say the "G" word, okay? #Relax...



EDITED for grammar, typos, and spelling...
Yet ANOTHER intelligent post.
And to the point. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[W2ILP]

With due respect to all religions THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMRERICA IS unconstitutional if it includes "under God".

This pledge did not include anty reference to God when I first recited it in elementry school, and I would prefer it to remain as originally written by its original author.

1) What is this pledge supposed to be a pledge to? Simple answer : - To the flag of the United States of America. This is not a religious vow. It is a pledge to our nation, which is symobolized by our flag. This flag does not symbolize any particular religion.
2) "UNDER God" insinuates that the pledge to our national loyality has less priority than our pledge to God. This pledge is, however, not meant to be a pledge to any God and should be capable of being taken by those who do not profess to believe in any God. It is a pledge to a flag, which could be considered an idol by some religions and is therefore beyond the acceptance by such religions and may be considered hypocritical to their beliefs.
3) Devout religious believers can not pledge to the flag of any nation, which does not follow the main motivations of said religions. In the extreme case Muslims can not pledge to a flag that does not display the cresent and devout Jewish Zionists can only pledge to the flag of Israel. While the Christian majority may feel confortable pledging to a nation under God, there are many Christian sects who have reservations about the acceptance of such a pledge.
4) The separation of church and state, as legislated by the founding fathers of the USA, separates our loyalty to the State and to the religion(s) or non religion(s) of our choice. The flag can only represent our STATE (nation) but is not intended to represent any or all religious sects.

Nationalism should be taught to children, many of whom go to public secular schools. There they can learn to pledge to the flag of the U.S, with proper respect. Those parents who send their children to private religious schools have the right to have their children learn to respect whatever symbols of their own religions exist...but to seperately pledge nationalistic loyality to the flag of the USA without reference to any God.

Patriotism means nationalist loyalty to our nation. IMHO we all must have that and we all should be willing to defend our nation when called ...BUT no patriotism says that we must profess a belief in any God(s)...No "Patriot Act" says so either.

w2ilp (Independent Loyalty Pledges?)

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Sep. 15 2005,14:28)]After 10 pages, I cannot believe that anyone has not pointed out how this ruling is unconsitutional!

Quote[/b] ]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech....

First off, you do NOT have to recite the pledge in school, or even stand for it. It IS completely optional. Yes, that's right!
You are much too logical. Are you sure you are in the right forum?

My son sat during the pledge when he was in high school. His teachers usually assumed he was a Jehova's Witness. If asked, he would say that he didn't pledge any flag but would fight for individual liberty, and in fact was.

But then, he has been a hard-core Objectivist since he read Atlas Shrugged at the age of 10..

Red Penguin Band (http://www.myspace.com/redpenguinband)

[N3ATS]

ILP,

No, it is NOT unconstitutional unless it is a law that you must recite it, and you are forced to. Neither are the case.

I found your post insightful, however I must disagree on one point.

Taking the word "God" out of the pledge so some sects won't be offended is religious pandering to those particular sects, and just as wrong as forcing religion on someone.

[nx6d]

Quote[/b] (ki4bnc @ Sep. 15 2005,13:00)]Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Sep. 15 2005,13:08)]Quote[/b] (ki4bnc @ Sep. 15 2005,12:02)]Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Sep. 15 2005,12:46)]Quote[/b] (ki4bnc @ Sep. 15 2005,11:43)]Quote[/b] (al2n @ Sep. 15 2005,11:35)]Quote[/b] ]U.S. Constitution - Amendment 1

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



Do the words under god constitute a law respecting an establishment of religion?

If the words are removed, is that not a law respecting the athiest religion over others?

Athseim has been ruled in court to be a religion for legal purposes.
Smartest thing I have read in this topic so far. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
"Atheism" is not a religion. Mr. Hammerskin. There's nothing "smart" about this comment at all.

AL2N's theory is a complete reach. I don't know of ANY cases that describe "atheism" as a religion.

Get extremely real.

Dave WX7B
as far as "mr hammerskin" you may adress me by my callsign.
or jason
or bnc
or I have even been called
"RAT"
(I work in a lab)
thankyou.
oh yeah I almost forgot,A freind of mine up the road said that your wife was haaving vision problems.did the docs get it figured out yet? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Old insult, Mr. Hamm...uh, BNC.

That one has been used before, by other stations. #It's complete loserspeak. If you want to insult me, fine. Leave my wife out of it.

You didn't address my other comments. Why did you choose to make an attack instead of addressing what I said?

Dave WX7B
Didn't know it was an insult.Just trying to pass along something positive.
yeah,check the link(now that we are back on the TOPIC at hand)seems pretty straight forward to me.
atheisim should be a religion -a beleif of nothing.
real intelligent.
this is not an attack.
only adressing what you said, Mr.kalifornia http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Yet another person who can't spell. BTW your "jokes" aren't funny. I'm sure you'll spin that into some other lame insult, Mr. H, er, BNC.

It's "California". I'll say again. I'm not going to insult your home with some cheap insult just to make a point. Grow up.

That's really weak.

As to the "atheism as religion" comment, how can a belief in no God be considered a "religion". That's just stupid. God doesn't exist. I don't go to a church to worship something that doesn't exist. Atheism is NOT a religion.

Dave WX7B

[W2ILP]

n3ats

Since "under God" was not originally in the pledge, I can say that putting it in is religious pandering.

Thank you for your comment...Your point in "Under Godless".

w2ilp (Idolworshiping Loyal Patriot)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Oh father... look up and see that flag,
How gracefully she flies,
Those pretty stripes they seem to be,
A rainbow in the skys!
--Source Unknown...But not a pledge!--

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Sep. 15 2005,14:49)]Atheism is NOT a religion.

Dave WX7B
...but it should be afforded the same legal protection as any religion, including tax-free status.

[nx6d]

Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Sep. 15 2005,13:28)]
Quote[/b] ]I am surprise that the leftists would embrace such a ruling given their history for championing personal freedoms. It wonders me that atheists and agnostics, who DENY the very existence of a higher power, get so upset over it! LMAO! What's next, no talk about the Great Pumpkin Charlie Brown?


It's not a "personal freedom" issue. It's the fanatical Christians trying to jam THEIR religion down everyone's throats! Do it in your own homes, your own places of worship. Respect others and leave YOUR religion out of the schools and government.

Hello, can't you see that? Well, I guess you can't.

Quote[/b] ]As a Libertarian I think this is just another attempt by big brother to erode our consitutional rights.


What the heck does THAT mean? If you were a TRUE Libertarian, you wouldn't be making this argument...

Which is it station?

Dave WX7B

[N3ATS]

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Sep. 15 2005,17:52)]n3ats

Since "under God" was not originally in the pledge, I can say that putting it in is religious pandering.
Touche! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Good point, OM.



Not sure who the under godless comment was directed towards...

[nx6d]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Sep. 15 2005,13:53)]Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Sep. 15 2005,14:49)]Atheism is NOT a religion.

Dave WX7B
...but it should be afforded the same legal protection as any religion, including tax-free status.
No, it shouldn't.

Where did you get that?

Dave WX7B

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Sep. 15 2005,14:56)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ Sep. 15 2005,13:53)]Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Sep. 15 2005,14:49)]Atheism is NOT a religion.

Dave WX7B
...but it should be afforded the same legal protection as any religion, including tax-free status.
No, it shouldn't.

Where did you get that?

Dave WX7B
You are persecuting me for my faith in a logical Universe by taxing me but not Billy Graham, who just so happens to have a really nice, tax-free, multi-million dollar hanger and aircraft in Soldotna for "Missions" to Russia that seems to carry his son to a lot of great fishing lodges.

[W2ILP]

wx7b.

Your point is well taken for... litterly Atheism is not a religion. Many people who go to churches for social reasons are not really believers. Many are actually agnostics or atheists who regard church going as part of ethnic culture rather than piety. Many do not admit this even to themselves...but if polled, we find that there are many reluctant believers in the superstitious ancient religious rituals that have evolved into present day religions.

Atheism is an Anti-Religion. It will exist as long as there are "supernatural religions". Protons are the opposite of electrons. Both make up electricity. Anti-religion is the opposite of religion.
Both anti and pro make up faiths. I can have faith in the fact that there is no God that is real, as described in any Bibles that I have been exposed to. Thus the definition of "religion" varies because religion is faith and not necessarily faith in a Biblical God.

When confronted by members of FIST. Ex ARRL Vice President, Steve Mendleshon asked,
"Is Morse Code a religion?"

It could be for the faithful CW operator!

Any belief that we might cling to with certitude could be a religion...including Atheism. This makes the definition of "religion" ambiguous. I can have faith in a Trinity consisting of the Sun, the Moon and the nothingness of space. Faith is whatever I want it to mean for me.

w2ilp (Intolerant Limited Philosophy?)

[KF0RT]

Quote[/b] (al2n @ Sep. 15 2005,12:35)]
Quote[/b] ]Do the words under god constitute a law respecting an establishment of religion?

No. The pledge is not a law.

Quote[/b] ]If the words are removed, is that not a law respecting the athiest religion over others?

No again, for the same reason. However, removing "under god" would make the pledge neutral to religion (neither for nor against). As is, it would appear to be pro-Christian. But, since it's not a law, there's no Constitutional foul either way.

73, Rob