Major Solar Flare to Disrupt Communications [Archive]

k6faf

09-10-2005, 09:06 PM

to K2WH:
That report is quite impressive for 35w and mobile.

IMHO and regarding my experiences in EU and VHF DXing on SSB we seem to differ a bit:
Normal condx 14dB antenna gain plus 150 W out your circle of opportunity is about 350 miles/ 550km
Tropo condx with same power and antenna gain would be about double depending on the duct/weather.
Aurora (depending on your angle to it) would enhance to about 500 miles and up to 750miles.
ES (Sporadic E) would do about 1000 miles up to 1250.
My ODX with 150W and 14dB Gain was 1600km, around 1000 miles from the middle of DL into Ukraine, being very lucky to be at the right time at the right place for Sporadic E. On tropo I odxed 1150km~ 800 miles.

VHF in EU is a lot busier on SSB and also cw. In your basic range you have quite some countries for DX and lots of stations to work.

Here, I only 'heard" that not a lot of people are experimenting with VHF 2m. Have not talked to anybody out of state , yet.

Usng CW can enhance your range about 20%, mostly on normal condx and on Aurora; Tropo and ES are too shortlived most the time to allow that mode.

High speed CW can be used on 2m on Aurora, EME and/or working meteoride showers, but that is beyond normal propagation, anyway.

Very 73 de k6faf, HANS

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif :blush:

K2TFT

09-10-2005, 09:58 PM

Well, the pactor station are still transmitting into no where, as usual, still without using callsigns.....SOOOO
I reckon digital aint dead. HAR HAR HAR HAR!!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

w6em

09-11-2005, 01:54 AM

Quote[/b] (K2TFT @ Sep. 09 2005,17:58)]Well, the pactor station are still transmitting into no where, as usual, still without using callsigns.....SOOOO
I reckon digital aint dead. #HAR HAR HAR HAR!!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Oh, no. #That can't possibly be true. #Pactor stations ID in pactor-only format. #It must be that you can't decipher their calls.

So, unless you (or the FCC) have a special pactor box, you won't know who they are. #Or, what the content of their transmissions are.

I think I'm right about that. #Maybe if I'm not, some of the pactor enthusiasts will tell me how non-pactor listeners can ID the robots.....

Although, unless you have a packet TNC, you won't know the call of a packet station sending bursts either.

Lee

w6em

09-11-2005, 02:12 AM

Quote[/b] (KU2US @ Sep. 09 2005,12:55)]LORDY-LORDY !! A good ole sunspot knocked out digital reception?? How can that be?? Digital is done for..We are doomed..Computers are doomed..The wrath of God prevailed..(Or was it Al Gore?).
Probably more like God is not real happy with us right now. #I'm sure Bush is closer to God than Gore is or was. #After all, Gore's an internet man. #There's little doubt about it, what with Bush's righteousness on his shirtsleeve and every for-profit fundamentalist behind him.

Yep, too political..... Bush isn't in charge of solar flares. At least not yet.

Lee
W6EM

al2i

09-11-2005, 12:09 PM

The thread seems rather political at the moment, but I thought I might note that there was a very bright aurora tonight at about 12:30 am in case anyone cares.

Dave/al2i

ka3bvj

09-11-2005, 12:38 PM

This morning 8:30 eastern 80 meters have noise level of S7..I am trying to check in to a net but really not hearing much...

KG4YUV

09-11-2005, 01:55 PM

Aww... Just when I put my beacon back on the air.. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
28.253

n9yb

09-11-2005, 09:12 PM

Looks like more fun is happening.

Space.com article on recent solar flares. (http://space.com/scienceastronomy/050909_solar_flares.html)

kb9bk

09-11-2005, 11:08 PM

Wow. Here's a link to a very good video of the solar flare. Better grab your sunglasses!!

http://sxidata.ngdc.noaa.gov/archive....31D.MPG (http://sxidata.ngdc.noaa.gov/archive/browse/2005/09/01/SXI_20050901_000000_BB_G12_AR2_31D.MPG)

Kevin
KB9BK

KC7RJT

09-11-2005, 11:46 PM

havent heard anything about ham radio on the
news coverage...hmmm:rock:

aa1mn

09-12-2005, 02:29 PM

Quote[/b] ]What?
You mean that when the "big one" comes and everything is out, you can't count on ham radio?

How can this be?

Ssh! You've just let the best kept secret about amateur radio out of the box ... it's not as reliable as cell phones, landlines, or CB!

Chuck, AA1MN

K4JF

09-12-2005, 02:32 PM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Sep. 12 2005,07:29)]Quote[/b] ]What?
You mean that when the "big one" comes and everything is out, you can't count on ham radio?

How can this be?

Ssh! #You've just let the best kept secret about amateur radio out of the box ... it's not as reliable as cell phones, landlines, or CB!

Chuck, AA1MN
That's hilarious, Chuck!!!!!!!!!! #(I want some of what he's been drinkin'!!)

AC7RG

09-12-2005, 02:45 PM

That is pretty cool, Larry. #Large flare indeed. Thanks for posting the link to the photo.

aa1mn

09-12-2005, 04:59 PM

Quote[/b] ]That's hilarious, Chuck!!!!!!!!!! (I want some of what he's been drinkin'!!)

Drinking, nothing ... amateur radio is fallible.

Chuck, AA1MN

w6em

09-12-2005, 09:04 PM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Sep. 11 2005,12:59)]Quote[/b] ]That's hilarious, Chuck!!!!!!!!!! #(I want some of what he's been drinkin'!!)

Drinking, nothing ... amateur radio is fallible.

Chuck, AA1MN
Back to trolling, eh Chuck? Someday, you might hook a fish you can't handle.........

Straighten up.

Lee
W6EM

AG3Y

09-13-2005, 12:47 AM

This is really sad. It is very possibly true that we are seeing "the begining of the end" for ham radio. When guys start to "dissing" the very service that they have studied and tested for in order to enter the fraternity to such an extent that I have seen in these last few days ( "echostink rules" "amateur radio is fallible" etc. etc. ) you just gotta think that the end of the service cannot be long in coming.

How does that famous quote go ? "He does not hold in high esteem that which he does not work hard for!" or something to that effect .

Sad indeed ! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

K4JF

09-13-2005, 12:49 AM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Sep. 12 2005,09:59)]Quote[/b] ]That's hilarious, Chuck!!!!!!!!!! #(I want some of what he's been drinkin'!!)

Drinking, nothing ... amateur radio is fallible.

Chuck, AA1MN
Of course it is fallible. BUT: when there is no emergency or problem with the systems, in other words everyday ordinary, it is far, far more reliable than cell phone or CB (that second one is the most hilarious, CB is the least reliable communications service there is). It is also more reliable than public service radios (mostly Motorolas). When things go to pot like southern Louisiana right now, ham radio is more reliable than wired phones.

Not perfect, of course, but I am making a comparison of level of reliablilty based on accurate observation. Just fact.

K4JF

09-13-2005, 12:50 AM

Quote[/b] (w6em @ Sep. 12 2005,14:04)]Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Sep. 11 2005,12:59)]Quote[/b] ]That's hilarious, Chuck!!!!!!!!!! #(I want some of what he's been drinkin'!!)

Drinking, nothing ... amateur radio is fallible.

Chuck, AA1MN
Back to trolling, eh Chuck? #Someday, you might hook a fish you can't handle.........

Straighten up.

Lee
W6EM
He already did....... #:o)

KQ6XA

09-13-2005, 03:17 AM

We've been able to stay in HF contact between a 100W mobile in the Katrina zone, and a 100W base station in California every day... including when the solar flares hit. How do we accomplish that? We use HF ALE ( Automatic Link Establishment )
It finds the band openings... there are a lot more than you think. Today, just after the solar flare, we had some great openings on 18MHz and 21MHz. There was no one else even talking on the band because the opening wasn't predicted.

Find out more about ALE and HF propagation:
HFLINK Amateur Radio ALE Automatic Link Establishment group (http://hflink.com)

http://hflink.com

HFLINK
http://www.hflink.com/hflinklogo3.gif

.

K8TEK

09-13-2005, 11:36 AM

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Sep. 12 2005,20:49)]Of course it is fallible. #BUT: #when there is no emergency or problem with the systems, in other words everyday ordinary, it is far, far more reliable than cell phone or CB (that second one is the most hilarious, CB is the least reliable communications service there is). #It is also more reliable than public service radios (mostly Motorolas). #When things go to pot like southern Louisiana right now, ham radio is more reliable than wired phones.
How do you figure CB is not reliable? I really wish you could elaborate on that one.

And why bash Motorola? Motorola makes very reliable equipment, much more reliable then Icom, Kenwood or Yaesu.

Normally if a known problem exist with Motorola equipment, they issue upgrades. Most systems are crapping out because they are improperly maintained, infrastructure is damaged by acts of god, or the system administrator fails to perform an upgrade.

My GP300 and HT1250 will outperform your dual band Kenwood HT anyday.

aa1mn

09-13-2005, 12:28 PM

Quote[/b] ] when there is no emergency or problem with the systems, in other words everyday ordinary, it is far, far more reliable than cell phone or CB (that second one is the most hilarious, CB is the least reliable communications service there is). #It is also more reliable than public service radios (mostly Motorolas). #When things go to pot like southern Louisiana right now, ham radio is more reliable than wired phones.

Not perfect, of course, but I am making a comparison of level of reliablilty based on accurate observation. #Just fact.

Oh, you mean like when skip is erratic, or the reapeater's down, or the coax is cracked or loose, or the antenna is broken, or the mic isn't working, or there's no one on frequency to respong (at least no one who knows what they're doing)?

Hmm, never had that trouble with my cell phone. #Never had that trouble with internet. #Never had that trouble with CB either.

Chuck, AA1MN

aa1mn

09-13-2005, 12:30 PM

Quote[/b] ]Back to trolling, eh Chuck? Someday, you might hook a fish you can't handle.........

Straighten up.

How would you know Lee? A sharp tounge does not mean you have a sharp mind.

Chuck, AA1MN

aa1mn

09-13-2005, 12:37 PM

Quote[/b] ]He already did....... :o)

And that would be?

Chuck, AA1MN

K8ZY

09-13-2005, 01:23 PM

I wonder if old sol is getting ready to go supernova! Did you check out the link at the top? Observe the pulses and they spell RAA in morse. The name of the Egyptian sun god. Coincidence??

K4JF

09-13-2005, 02:00 PM

Quote[/b] (K8TEK @ Sep. 13 2005,04:36)]Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Sep. 12 2005,20:49)]Of course it is fallible. #BUT: #when there is no emergency or problem with the systems, in other words everyday ordinary, it is far, far more reliable than cell phone or CB (that second one is the most hilarious, CB is the least reliable communications service there is). #It is also more reliable than public service radios (mostly Motorolas). #When things go to pot like southern Louisiana right now, ham radio is more reliable than wired phones.
How do you figure CB is not reliable? #I really wish you could elaborate on that one.

And why bash Motorola? #Motorola makes very reliable equipment, much more reliable then Icom, Kenwood or Yaesu.

Normally if a known problem exist with Motorola equipment, they issue upgrades. #Most systems are crapping out because they are improperly maintained, infrastructure is damaged by acts of god, #or the system administrator fails to perform an upgrade.

My GP300 and HT1250 will outperform your dual band Kenwood HT anyday.
How do I know? #Experience.

1. #CB is rife with problems making it unreliable for most any emergency. #4 watts, even on fixed stations. #40 extremely crowded channels. #AM, with hetrodynes (remember them? decades gone from most ham frequencies). #Lack of skilled operators, interference from foreign stations, as well as lawless stateside ops with high power. #Range, under the best of conditions, 1/2 mile. #Most rigs on the market are junk. #Completely unsuitable for any emergency. #FRS, for example, would be a far more viable option in an emergency. #And it's sad, because when I was using it back in the 60s (when licenses were required and the FCC was regulating it), it was quiet, with courteous operators, and I had no trouble chatting with my dad, who lived 30 miles away, on channel 17. #(no amps - 5 watts input, which was the rule then, legal antennas within the 20 foot limit). #Yes, I know that was illegal, but I have reformed, and the statute of limitations has run out. #(I was selling and installing CBs and commercial FM radios then.)

2. #Motorola makes good equipment. #Never said they didn't. #I'm certainly not bashing them. #But it is definitely not perfect and is NOT more reliable than Kenwood or Icom. (I have no personal experience with Yaesu VHF equipment, so can't comment there.) #I have a Motorola cellphone, which I like, but have gone through 3 of them in 2 years as they failed from various internal reasons. #My Kenwood TH-22 has operated reliably during all that time, plus about 2 more Motorola phones. #(Motorola actually has a rather poor reputation with local mobile phone service providers - a tech service supervisor I know is constantly asking me when I am going to "get rid of that Motorola". #Why am I keeping it? #I like the in-car handsfree kit which the others don't offer, plus I don't know that the others are any better.) #

And to compare apples to apples, I have used Motorola HTs, both VHF and UHF law enforcement models, and my own on 2m ham frequencies. #They are not more reliable than the Kenwood and Icom HTs I have owned - about the same, as a matter of fact, but are less versatile, larger and heavier. #

My newest Kenwood 2m rig, which I installed on the sailboat, is mil spec. #About as rugged as it gets. #Motorola may equal it, but certainly will not exceed it.

So, sorry, no. #I don't have a dual-band Kenwood HT. #But no Motorola will "outperform" the TH-22 or TH-42. #It may (or may not) survive abuse better, but the performance will be about the same. #If I were to go to a newer HT, it would be another Kenwood, and would be a mil-spec model, which would at the very least be equal to Motorola in abuse survivability.

In a recent emergency ops drill at the major hospital here, a Motorola PS HT was found to be of basically no use, lying unused on the table while my TH-42 was reliably repeated (to the 2m repeater, then to the command center), by the TM-V7A in my car parked outside. #We were deep inside a large hospital, and the Motorola HT would not reach the county EOC from inside. Versatility is important.

My Kenwood has an optional battery pack that will give me about 3 watts out with some standard AA batteries if I get into an emergency situation where I can't reach mains to recharge my factory battery pack. #(Or when I'm on an extended mountain hike.) #A pocket full of AAs will keep me going for days after the rechargables are gone. #Does Motorola even offer that option?

I do have a Motorola CB (sitting unused) that is still going strong after about 35 years. #Big, though. #Too big for my little car, but of no consequence, since I don't need a CB in the car since I retired.

Actually, Kenwood is giving Motorola a run for their money in the commercial/public service radio field.

So, again, I'm not bashing Motorola. #To recognize that they are not perfect, or that they have good solid competition, is certainly not bashing. #They were once the best there is, with no real competition. That is no longer true.

But it is indeniable that they have a really clueless idiot for a spokesman, if quoted accurately in another somewhat-related post. #Equipment that equals his is certainly not "next to nothing".

Bottom line: In an emergency, I would not hesitate to rely on Motorola, Kenwood or Icom equipment. I have found them all to be quite reliable. What I would not rely on, however, would be cellphones or CB.

K4JF

09-13-2005, 02:08 PM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Sep. 13 2005,05:28)]Quote[/b] ] when there is no emergency or problem with the systems, in other words everyday ordinary, it is far, far more reliable than cell phone or CB (that second one is the most hilarious, CB is the least reliable communications service there is). #It is also more reliable than public service radios (mostly Motorolas). #When things go to pot like southern Louisiana right now, ham radio is more reliable than wired phones.

Not perfect, of course, but I am making a comparison of level of reliablilty based on accurate observation. #Just fact.

Oh, you mean like when skip is erratic, or the reapeater's down, or the coax is cracked or loose, or the antenna is broken, or the mic isn't working, or there's no one on frequency to respong (at least no one who knows what there doing)?

Hmm, never had that trouble with my cell phone. #Never had that trouble with internet. #Never had that trouble with CB either.

Chuck, AA1MN
C'mon. #You're getting really out of reality now. #You are saying that you can always reach the internet, even when power is out and phones are down and cable service has been out for days? #And your antenna coax never comes loose on a CB? #Or cheap CB coax doesn't age? #Or mikes never break on that Radio Hovel CB? #Or that PS repeaters never fail? #(How many public service repeaters were working on New Orleans last week?) #Or Motorola mikes never get slammed in the ambulance door? #Or you never have dropped calls on your cellphone? #Gee, what planet are you on?

If you haven't had that happen on your equipment, you haven't used it very much.

K4JF

09-13-2005, 02:11 PM

{or there's no one on frequency to respond (at least no one who knows what there (sic) doing)}

Yep, that would be CB.

aa1mn

09-13-2005, 03:26 PM

Quote[/b] ]{or there's no one on frequency to respond (at least no one who knows what there (sic) doing)}

Yep, that would be CB.

You shouldn't judge others by your own incompetence.

Chuck, AA1MN

K4JF

09-13-2005, 04:30 PM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Sep. 13 2005,08:26)]Quote[/b] ]{or there's no one on frequency to respond (at least no one who knows what there (sic) doing)}

Yep, that would be CB.

You shouldn't judge others by your own incompetence.

Chuck, AA1MN
That was uncalled for. Since I don't use CB, (for just the reasons cited) don't know where that came from. Incompetent, I have never been called, by anyone with the facts. Even when they don't like me, (and that's OK, nobody is liked by everyone) they have to acknowledge that I know bloody well what I am doing.

So the previous post was written from an standpoint of ignorance. Not wise.

K0RGR

09-13-2005, 06:31 PM

I think these solar flares are probably a message that no technology - even one as 'infallible' as HF propagation - is really 'infallible'. Here we are with agencies that have been shunning us lately asking for more of our help, and the ionosphere is taking a vacation.

Should we be planning for contingencies like this? If so, how? Satellites? VHF SSB?

I was a bit shocked when I tried to check into the Minnesota Section Net on 75 meters Saturday morning, and could only hear one other station very weakly. You know that's some big solar flare to affect it that much!

K4JF

09-13-2005, 08:10 PM

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Sep. 13 2005,11:31)]I think these solar flares are probably a message that no technology - even one as 'infallible' as HF propagation - is really 'infallible'. #Here we are with agencies that have been shunning us lately asking for more of our help, and the ionosphere is taking a vacation. #

Should we be planning for contingencies like this? If so, how? Satellites? VHF SSB?

I was a bit shocked when I tried to check into the Minnesota Section Net on 75 meters Saturday morning, and could only hear one other station very weakly. #You know that's some big solar flare to affect it that much!
Good points. No technology is "infallable". None. HF is subject to more variances than some others. That was a major storm and pretty much wiped out any HF communications, other than local, here in South Carolina. Just about all HF was dead (including 11m of course).

Yes, we need alternates for any and all technology. We are the alternates for cell, commercial and PS VHF. We probably need to have backups for our backups, but, really, how often does a solar storm occur in the middle of recovery from a natural disaster? (I'm serious; I don't know how often, although I suspect the answer would be "not very". I don't recall one prior, at least not in the couple dozen I've been involved in.)

N8NOE

09-13-2005, 08:45 PM

Quote[/b] (KQ6XA @ Sep. 12 2005,15:17)]We've been able to stay in HF contact between a 100W mobile in the Katrina zone, and a 100W base station in California every day... including when the solar flares hit. How do we accomplish that? We use HF ALE ( Automatic Link Establishment )
It finds the band openings... there are a lot more than you think. Today, just after the solar flare, we had some great openings on 18MHz and 21MHz. There was no one else even talking on the band because the opening wasn't predicted.

Find out more about ALE and HF propagation:
HFLINK Amateur Radio ALE Automatic Link Establishment group (http://hflink.com)

http://hflink.com

HFLINK
http://www.hflink.com/hflinklogo3.gif

.
This is going to be great, if a Mac Version comes out.. I've heard and know a few people running it, and it DOES work. But the short of the story is I'm not going to get a PC for running this. Guess I'll have to just use the Old ways..
Jeff

K8TEK

09-13-2005, 09:43 PM

I can't believe you are comparing your crappy Kenwood HT HAM radio to a Motorola COMMERCIAL HT. There is no comparison.

Your credit card sized Kenwood is never going to be more durable then anything Motorola has come out with for public safety use (except perhaps the visar)

As far as versatility goes, is your Kenwood type-accepted for use in the public safety pool? Perhaps you can do some mods to your radio to use it illegally, but it isn't legal. Us hams are all about “keeping it legal”. Your Kenwood HAM radio doesn't even do industry standard reverse burst CTCSS. Don’t even get me started on the intermod your radio is susceptible to.

Don't start comparing Motorola cell phones to their two way radios. That would be like me comparing your Kenwood Two Way to a in-dash CD player.

K4JF

09-13-2005, 09:59 PM

Quote[/b] (K8TEK @ Sep. 13 2005,14:43)]I can't believe you are comparing your crappy Kenwood HT HAM radio to a Motorola COMMERCIAL HT. #There is no comparison.

Your credit card sized Kenwood is never going to be more durable then anything Motorola has come out with for public safety use (except perhaps the visar)

As far as versatility goes, is your Kenwood type-accepted for use in the public safety pool? #Perhaps you can do some mods to your radio to use it illegally, but it isn't legal. #Us hams are all about “keeping it legal”. # #Your Kenwood HAM radio doesn't even do industry standard reverse burst CTCSS. #Don’t even get me started on the intermod your radio is susceptible to.

Don't start comparing Motorola cell phones to their two way radios. #That would be like me comparing your Kenwood Two Way to a in-dash CD player.
Can't believe I'm comparing? I'm doing exactly that - first hand. I never said the Kenwood was better than the Motorola. I don't see any real difference in performance. That's hands on. Nothing crappy about the Kenwood - I have used them both for many years and have found neither gives any real problem. And neither is prone to intermod problems. (And it's not the credit card size rig, that one isn't Kenwood.) The Motorola is bigger and heavier and probably more resistant to dropping and other abuse. They do make big rugged rigs. Never said they didn't.

Have no need for "reverse burst CTCSS", my HTs don't do any CTCSS. Don't need it. (And if Motorola made a ham rig it wouldn't have it either.)

Not going to use it in a public safety pool. Plenty of Kenwood rigs available for that, won't need the HT. If Motorola made a ham rig it wouldn't be type accepted either, so that comparison isn't valid.

Motorola used to be the gold standard of PS radios, with nobody coming close, not even GE. Those days are gone. They now have competition. That's all I'm saying.

w6em

09-13-2005, 10:04 PM

Quote[/b] (K8TEK @ Sep. 12 2005,07:36)]And why bash Motorola? #Motorola makes very reliable equipment, much more reliable then Icom, Kenwood or Yaesu.

Normally if a known problem exist with Motorola equipment, they issue upgrades. #Most systems are crapping out because they are improperly maintained, infrastructure is damaged by acts of god, #or the system administrator fails to perform an upgrade.

My GP300 and HT1250 will outperform your dual band Kenwood HT anyday.
The trunked system that cr*pped out in New Orleans wasn't /\/\, but probably just the fact that a controller died from lack of epower or got soggy in the basement.
Anyway, if you were to ask an NO policeman or fireman what they thought of their trunked system when the chips were down, well, you'd probably best cover your ears.......

Fundamentally, trunked systems are inferior to conventional, multiple repeater systems in a crisis. #NYC on 9/11/01 was a first lesson and largely ignored. #Now, NO on 8/28/05. #It, too will be buried by those with monetary interest in trunked technology.

The Coast Guard saved lives via VHF FM and VHF AM. #Simple, reliable and effective. #Meanwhile, the city vehicles could only try to work each other simplex on one 800MHz frequency. #Good luck.

Your GP300, at best has 16 channels and 4W output. #Deluxe features like scanning, and revert to transmit on the active channel and DPL. #16 pre-programmed channels. #Akin to a crystal rig.

Your HT-1250 might have a few more channels, and if you have the full keypad-display, you can use the keypad as a DTMF pad by pressing the "phone" feature. #Same basic problem, though, do direct keypad frequency entry. #Now, if you got a "fed-surplus" JT-1000, you can enter frequencies directly. #Those are a rareity.

Nice dual use vehicular and base chargers, though.

How about this: #Motorola makes a great little HT called a GP-68. #It has direct keypad frequency entry and a display. #Why won't they sell them in the US to amateurs?

They angrily object to anyone outside the US trying to sell them on eBay, telling eBay that they are ILLEGAL to import and sell them in the US. #Nope. #Not being type accepted doesn't make them illegal for sale or import. #Just for use on commercial frequencies. #We hams can use them perfectly legally within Part 97 requirements.

So, if you LOVE /\/\ so much, perhaps you can provide an answer why /\/\ won't permit the sale of GP-68 HTs in the US to we hams? #Are they afraid that the radios would find their way into the "wrong" hands? #How stupid.

I know, this is a looooong way from propagation, but, in crises like what we've just seen, having a few of those GP-68 HTs donated by /\/\ would have surely been helpful. #And, an STA from the FCC would have allowed their legal use in coordinating between amateur and public safety services like the Coast Guard and FEMA much easier.....

Lee
W6EM

AG3Y

09-13-2005, 10:26 PM

Quote[/b] (K8ZY @ Sep. 13 2005,09:23)]I wonder if old sol is getting ready to go supernova! #Did you check out the link at the top? Observe the pulses and they spell RAA in morse. #The name of the Egyptian sun god. Coincidence??
Not at all ! #If you are going to try to cook up a Supernatural event brought about by some Ancient Superstition, you should at least get the name spelled CORRECTLY !

Egyptian Sun God - RA ! (http://members.aol.com/egyptart/ra.html)

K8TEK

09-13-2005, 10:31 PM

The GP-68 is not legal for import because it is capable of operation on frequencies it is not type accepted for, Ex. The public safety pool.

Why is field programmability such an issue with you guys? Motorola makes an HT-1550XLS which is field programmable. 160 conventional channels, perfect for someone like yourself that needs to get into every repeater in the country.

You don't need a "fed surplus" JT-1000 to do field programming, you need a programming key.

Don't blame Motorola for what happened in New Orleans, that was an act of god, and the fact they had 1 800MHz simplex channel was lack of poor planning, not by any means Motorola's fault.

As far as reverse burst goes, if you like hearing your annoying squelch tails after you un-key, go for it, but stay the hell of my repeater. I will just require inverted DPL, that surely will keep most ham’s at bay.

w6em

09-14-2005, 12:12 AM

Quote[/b] (K8TEK @ Sep. 12 2005,18:31)]The GP-68 is not legal for import because it is capable of operation on frequencies it is not type accepted for, Ex. The public safety pool. #

Why is field programmability such an issue with you guys? #Motorola makes an HT-1550XLS which is field programmable. #160 conventional channels, #perfect for someone like yourself that needs to get into every repeater in the country.

You don't need a "fed surplus" JT-1000 to do field programming, you need a programming key.

Don't blame Motorola for what happened in New Orleans, that was an act of god, and the fact they had 1 800MHz simplex channel was lack of poor planning, not by any means Motorola's fault.

As far as reverse burst goes, if you like hearing your annoying squelch tails after you un-key, go for it, but stay the hell of my repeater. #I will just require inverted DPL, that surely will keep most ham’s at bay.
Your observation about the GP-68 makes no sense whatsoever. #It isn't type acceptable as it is keypad frequency-programmable by the operator. #That makes it unacceptable for land mobile use under Part 90. #It is perfectly OK for use under Part 97, as are other non-type accepted radios.

Here's the relevant section, which you ought to read:

90.203 Certification Required

(e) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, transmitters designed to operate above 25 MHz shall not be certificated for use under this part if the operator can program and transmit on frequencies, other than those programmed by the manufacturer, service or maintenance personnel, using the equipment's external operation controls.

(f) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, transmitters designed to operate above 25 MHz that have been approved prior to January 15, 1988, and that permit the operator, by using external controls, to program the transmitter's operating frequencies, shall not be manufactured in, or imported into the United States after March 15, 1988. Marketing of these transmitters shall not be permitted after March 15, 1989.

(g) Transmitters having frequency programming capability and that are designed to operate above 25 MHz are exempt from paragraphs (e) and (f) of this section if the design of such transmitters: (1) Is such that transmitters with external controls normally available to the operator must be internally modified to place the equipment in the programmable mode. Further, while in the programmable mode, the equipment shall not be capable of transmitting. The procedures for making the modification and altering the frequency program shall not be made available with the operating information normally supplied to the end user of the equipment; or

(2) Requires the tramsitter to be programmed for frequencies through controls normally inaccessible to the operator; or

(3) Requires equipment to be programmed for frequencies through use of external devices or specifically programmed modules made available only to service/maintenance personnel; or

(4) Requires equipment to be programmed through cloning (copying a program directly from another transmitter) using devices and procedures made available only to service/maintenance personnel

So, yes, if you have a "key" (or modify a radio that IS capable internally to be keypad programmed) it could be keypad programmed. #But, not legally by its normal operator. #I have no doubt that the newer radio you cite can be, with internal modification. #It does not, I repeat, does NOT come that way from /\/\ or it too, would not meet 90.203.

Go ahead, set up your repeater with INV TPL, or INV DPL or QUICK-CALL II and talk to yourself.

The GP-68 could have been sold in the US by /\/\ to hams completely within the law. #They chose not to do so as they aren't particularly interested in us having any of their products. #New or used. #In fact, at the upcoming flea market on the grounds of the /\/\ Sunrise, FL site, they specifically prohibit the sale or display of any /\/\ VHF or UHF products. #Fancy that. #They must LOVE us, don't they?

Lee
W6EM

KB1DIW

09-14-2005, 12:13 AM

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Sep. 13 2005,02:00)]Quote[/b] (K8TEK @ Sep. 13 2005,04:36)]Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Sep. 12 2005,20:49)]Of course it is fallible. #BUT: #when there is no emergency or problem with the systems, in other words everyday ordinary, it is far, far more reliable than cell phone or CB (that second one is the most hilarious, CB is the least reliable communications service there is). #It is also more reliable than public service radios (mostly Motorolas). #When things go to pot like southern Louisiana right now, ham radio is more reliable than wired phones.
How do you figure CB is not reliable? #I really wish you could elaborate on that one.

And why bash Motorola? #Motorola makes very reliable equipment, much more reliable then Icom, Kenwood or Yaesu.

Normally if a known problem exist with Motorola equipment, they issue upgrades. #Most systems are crapping out because they are improperly maintained, infrastructure is damaged by acts of god, #or the system administrator fails to perform an upgrade.

My GP300 and HT1250 will outperform your dual band Kenwood HT anyday.
How do I know? #Experience.

1. #CB is rife with problems making it unreliable for most any emergency. #4 watts, even on fixed stations. #40 extremely crowded channels. #AM, with hetrodynes (remember them? decades gone from most ham frequencies). #Lack of skilled operators, interference from foreign stations, as well as lawless stateside ops with high power. #Range, under the best of conditions, 1/2 mile. #Most rigs on the market are junk. #Completely unsuitable for any emergency. #FRS, for example, would be a far more viable option in an emergency. #And it's sad, because when I was using it back in the 60s (when licenses were required and the FCC was regulating it), it was quiet, with courteous operators, and I had no trouble chatting with my dad, who lived 30 miles away, on channel 17. #(no amps - 5 watts input, which was the rule then, legal antennas within the 20 foot limit). #Yes, I know that was illegal, but I have reformed, and the statute of limitations has run out. #(I was selling and installing CBs and commercial FM radios then.)

2. #Motorola makes good equipment. #Never said they didn't. #I'm certainly not bashing them. #But it is definitely not perfect and is NOT more reliable than Kenwood or Icom. (I have no personal experience with Yaesu VHF equipment, so can't comment there.) #I have a Motorola cellphone, which I like, but have gone through 3 of them in 2 years as they failed from various internal reasons. #My Kenwood TH-22 has operated reliably during all that time, plus about 2 more Motorola phones. #(Motorola actually has a rather poor reputation with local mobile phone service providers - a tech service supervisor I know is constantly asking me when I am going to "get rid of that Motorola". #Why am I keeping it? #I like the in-car handsfree kit which the others don't offer, plus I don't know that the others are any better.) #

And to compare apples to apples, I have used Motorola HTs, both VHF and UHF law enforcement models, and my own on 2m ham frequencies. #They are not more reliable than the Kenwood and Icom HTs I have owned - about the same, as a matter of fact, but are less versatile, larger and heavier. #

My newest Kenwood 2m rig, which I installed on the sailboat, is mil spec. #About as rugged as it gets. #Motorola may equal it, but certainly will not exceed it.

So, sorry, no. #I don't have a dual-band Kenwood HT. #But no Motorola will "outperform" the TH-22 or TH-42. #It may (or may not) survive abuse better, but the performance will be about the same. #If I were to go to a newer HT, it would be another Kenwood, and would be a mil-spec model, which would at the very least be equal to Motorola in abuse survivability.

In a recent emergency ops drill at the major hospital here, a Motorola PS HT was found to be of basically no use, lying unused on the table while my TH-42 was reliably repeated (to the 2m repeater, then to the command center), by the TM-V7A in my car parked outside. #We were deep inside a large hospital, and the Motorola HT would not reach the county EOC from inside. Versatility is important.

My Kenwood has an optional battery pack that will give me about 3 watts out with some standard AA batteries if I get into an emergency situation where I can't reach mains to recharge my factory battery pack. #(Or when I'm on an extended mountain hike.) #A pocket full of AAs will keep me going for days after the rechargables are gone. #Does Motorola even offer that option?

I do have a Motorola CB (sitting unused) that is still going strong after about 35 years. #Big, though. #Too big for my little car, but of no consequence, since I don't need a CB in the car since I retired.

Actually, Kenwood is giving Motorola a run for their money in the commercial/public service radio field.

So, again, I'm not bashing Motorola. #To recognize that they are not perfect, or that they have good solid competition, is certainly not bashing. #They were once the best there is, with no real competition. #That is no longer true.

But it is indeniable that they have a really clueless idiot for a spokesman, if quoted accurately in another somewhat-related post. #Equipment that equals his is certainly not "next to nothing".

Bottom line: #In an emergency, I would not hesitate to rely on Motorola, Kenwood or Icom equipment. #I have found them all to be quite reliable. #What I would not rely on, however, would be cellphones or CB.
This just goes to show you have absouletly no idea what you are talking about.

Kenwoods are not bad radios, but they are not the best in the commerical market. There are many of them due to their cheap price.

There is no way that you can compare a ham radio with a commerical grade radio. Doesn't happen. By the fact that they are wideband recievers and transmitters and not held to the more striengent standards that commerical radios are, they fall short.

Your little 3watt extra battery pack doesn't compare the the standard 4-6 watts output of a commerical handheld.

So, if 11 meters is just so bad, how come 10 isnt'?

Your contradicting yourself in your statement. Just because some tech talks crap about a cell phone, it isn't a blanket statement, and its just a personal thought. I personally have used nothing but Motorola cell phone for the past 10 years. I have tried the others, and they are just toys (well, most are not anyways).

Either way, don't give ham made radios a better clout than the commerical big boys.

Motorola radio's are where not designed with ham in mind, but make very nice ham radios if they go into the band. In fact, all my radios that I OWN and use in emergency serivces also work into the ham bands without any problems. My FD lowband radio is a 15 year old Motorola and works from 25-54 without a single problem. I can't find a ham radio that has the same performance or senstivity.

KB1DIW

09-14-2005, 12:23 AM

Quote[/b] (w6em @ Sep. 13 2005,10:04)]Fundamentally, trunked systems are inferior to conventional, multiple repeater systems in a crisis. #NYC on 9/11/01 was a first lesson and largely ignored. #Now, NO on 8/28/05. #It, too will be buried by those with monetary interest in trunked technology.
Wrong again.

Conventional systems are just as prone to failure as trunked systems. Trunked systems are inheritly more effectient due to their abilily to use specturm much more effectienly, and priorty access for those people who needs it. I personally would like a trunked system at where I work, but the old farts can't see past the "we are not a city, so we don't need that attidude". Of course, it would solve quite a bit of problems, but what do I know.

I have seem many of the reports about "radio system failures" in NYC. It wasn't nessesarly the radio system, but how the city operated and the lack of coperation between the serivices. Its was just another avenue of people with lawsuits going all over the place.

It also didn't help that many city radio's were on the towers, including FDNY's Manhattan radio.

You had FDNY dispatched on VHF, fire operations on UHF, NYPD UHF, EMS and city serivces on a Trunked system, State Serivces on a EDACS system and so forth.

GP68 are not marked or manufactured for state side use. Plain and simple. Using your example, I saw we start importing the CB amps again. We can use them on 10M right? Whats the big deal.

See what I am getting at?

Start using that gray matter in the head.

K8TEK

09-14-2005, 12:37 AM

You don't get it, the GP68 is not type accepted for the public safety/business pool. #You cannot sell a radio capible of transmitting on those bands WITHOUT MODIFICATIONS in the US unless they are type accepted for said use. #That is why they are banned

The HT1550XLS, with programming battery and the JT1000, with programming key, are both keypad programmible and are type accepted for use in public safety/business pool, and both are capible of ham usage.

Motorola is not marketed to hammies, but hands down will outperform any hammy gear any day.

K4JF

09-14-2005, 12:54 AM

Quote[/b] (KB1DIW @ Sep. 13 2005,17:13)]Your little 3watt extra battery pack doesn't compare the the standard 4-6 watts output of a commerical handheld.

So, if 11 meters is just so bad, how come 10 isnt'?

Your contradicting yourself in your statement. Either way, don't give ham made radios a better clout than the commerical big boys.
1. #My rig is 5 watts, not 3 when on rechargable battery. #Same as the M. #But the difference in watts would be unnoticable in most circumstances. the 3 watts is with AA batteries, not even an option on the M.

2. 11 meters is CB. #10 meters is ham. #No comparison. #11 meters is bad for the reasons listed, none of which apply to 10m. #Different band, different rules, different operators, etc. #No comparison. #Don't really know why anybody would think there were any similarity, other than frequency, and there are(were) business and military frequencies just as close. That question shows a complete lack of understanding of the bands, and obviously didn't read what I said about 11.

No contradiction in anything I posted. #Just first hand experience. #I never said any brand was superior to M, just that there were some more good ones on the market. Motorola radios are great. #They are NOT hand made by God and gifted to humanity.

This is off the subject, so I won't discourse any more. #I'm right and y'all know it.

w6em

09-14-2005, 01:34 AM

Quote[/b] (KB1DIW @ Sep. 12 2005,20:23)]Quote[/b] (w6em @ Sep. 13 2005,10:04)]Fundamentally, trunked systems are inferior to conventional, multiple repeater systems in a crisis. #NYC on 9/11/01 was a first lesson and largely ignored. #Now, NO on 8/28/05. #It, too will be buried by those with monetary interest in trunked technology.
Wrong again.

Conventional systems are just as prone to failure as trunked systems. Trunked systems are inheritly more effectient due to their abilily to use specturm much more effectienly, and priorty access for those people who needs it. I personally would like a trunked system at where I work, but the old farts can't see past the "we are not a city, so we don't need that attidude". Of course, it would solve quite a bit of problems, but what do I know.

I have seem many of the reports about "radio system failures" in NYC. It wasn't nessesarly the radio system, but how the city operated and the lack of coperation between the serivices. Its was just another avenue of people with lawsuits going all over the place.

It also didn't help that many city radio's were on the towers, including FDNY's Manhattan radio.

You had FDNY dispatched on VHF, fire operations on UHF, NYPD UHF, EMS and city serivces on a Trunked system, State Serivces on a EDACS system and so forth.

GP68 are not marked or manufactured for state side use. Plain and simple. Using your example, I saw we start importing the CB amps again. We can use them on 10M right? Whats the big deal.

See what I am getting at?

Start using that gray matter in the head.
EDACS is not Smart Net, and they aren't mutually compatible. #Whereas, GE/Ericsson/M&A conventional gear IS useable with Kenwood, ICOM, Vertex-Standard or even Motorola conventional radios. #Major point in situations noted by reference. #Point 1.

Failure of epower, antenna structures, feedline and perhaps, flooding of equipment rooms are all possible modes of failure at distinct and separately located sites. #Yes. #Maybe at one point. Maybe not at another. However, when a central trunked system controller goes down, well, ugh, out of business evrywhere........ except for simplex operation. Single point failure sensitivity = t*r*u*n*k*e*d.

Factory Mutual, who writes standards for fire protection and fire fighter working procedures strongly recommends that all communications with personnel in burning structures take place on conventional radios. #Why?
Trunked IS NOT real time. #It is store and attempt to forward, even when a spare channel is available. #Bid for that channel. #Bonk, bonk. #Nothing available. #Somebody who needs to yell for help can't afford to wait. #It might cost him or her their lives.

OK, nice thought to have higher utilization of given channel assignments. #Nice to have selectable groups and all that stuff. #But, its prone to crashing and single point failure and not be fast or reliable enough when someone's life is on the line.

Now, I'm using my gray matter, and some experience.

No, you don't make much sense. #Just a display of your attitude.

The GP-68 could be sold, if sold to amateurs. #It can't legally be licensed for Part 90 service, because only type accepted radios can be used. #It doesn't meet Part 90, but it meets Part 97. #We don't need type accepted radios. #Commercial and public safety users do..... #

CB amps are designed to be used and sold for use illegally. #Their manufacture and sale for that purpose is against federal regulations. #However, if you were to buy one and use it, via modification or tuning, on the 10 meter band, you haven't broken the law if your license class permits you to. #The people who manufactured it did, though.
#
Have a good evening.

73,

Lee
W6EM

w6em

09-14-2005, 01:50 AM

Quote[/b] (K8TEK @ Sep. 12 2005,20:37)]You don't get it, the GP68 is not type accepted for the public safety/business pool. #You cannot sell a radio capible of transmitting on those bands WITHOUT MODIFICATIONS in the US unless they are type accepted for said use. #That is why they are banned

The HT1550XLS, with programming battery and the JT1000, with programming key, are both keypad programmible and are type accepted for use in public safety/business pool, and both are capible of ham usage.

Motorola is not marketed to hammies, but hands down will outperform any hammy gear any day.
I guess you just didn't read Part 90.203 carefully enough.
If you modify a JT-1000 or your HT1550XLS so that it can be keypad programmed by any operator, you have just voided its type acceptance. #The key and special battery are for maintenance personnel only and not to be left on the radios to comply with their type acceptance for Part 90 use.

Also, if you think /\/\ broadband front end radios are not susceptable to adjacent channel overload and desense from strong adjacent channels, you should read your manuals more carefully. #A /\/\ Spectra manual, for example, contains such cautionary notes. #Wide band commercial radios, such as your GP-300 and HT-1250 are more subject to front end overload and do not have the front end rejection that the older, narrow passband front end types, like the Micor or Mitrek and HT220 and MT500 for that reason. #Same thing for the LB Syntor receiver, since its broadbanded from 29 through 50MHz. #The Maxtrac and Radius series are somewhat better, since their passbands are tuneable to about a 6MHz segment. #But anything within that 6MHz will come pounding through to the first mixer......

Wideband receivers are wideband receivers. #Whether amateur or commercial. #Hey, amateur front ends only need to be 4 to 10MHz wide, not 30MHz or so.......

73,

Lee
W6EM

k2jsv

09-14-2005, 02:41 AM

You guys are beating your chests about what?

It was mentioned about comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges... But in the next part of the sentence a Kenwood ham HT was compared to a Motorola cellular telephone. HELLO!! I'm Earth... have we met?

KB1DIW's low band will do everything he needs it to do from 29 mhz to 54 mhz... that works for him and therefore it's better, for him. You have a Henwood HT that doesn't do PL... which works for you... and is better, for you.

So compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. You cannot compare a Motorola commercial grade radio to a Kenwood Amateur radio. They were produced for 2 seperate functions and uses. No comparison to be made except for the fact that they transmit a radio signal for another radio to receive.

Now it's not to say I support one or the other. But jeez guys, make the comarisons where they need to be made. You want to compare Motorola to Kenwood in the commercial arena, then fine... put a Kenwood TK-272G up against a GP300. Or in the amateur arena, put an ICOM against a Yeasu.

My last little bit... Front Panel Progamability... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif XTS5000... Nuff said. You can all go sit down now. FPP at the touch of a button from the factory (properly flashed of course) and still type accepted without special keys or batteries or other whosiedingles.

KB1DIW

09-14-2005, 02:59 AM

Ok, lets try this.

As NYC goes...

FDNY: Conventional VHF dispatch, UHF-T band fireground
NYPD: Conventional UHF-T band
FDNY-EMS/City Services: 4 Type II systems
New York State-NYC: EDACS
Port Authority NY/NJ: EDACS
Federal Systems: Type II

The JT1000 is not a modded radio. Out of the factory it was a field programmable radio. For the regs at the time, it needed to be somewhat restricted. A programming key was available. It was a $50 option.

The 1550 requrired a battery. Works the same way, but the regs changed since the JT1000 was out. You can FPP without a problem.

Neither radio's were restricted in sales or options. It was just a layer that the FCC had. Both radio's ARE type accepted. Its not just a "maintence" option. Not that it matters with the goverment, but the government JT1000 had a software flag turned on that allowed programming without the key. Takes about 2 secs to change.

The XTS5000 is available with a similar option, but is restricted by Motorola to the Wildland Services for the fires, and does not require a sep key or attachment. But, can be password protected.

As an owner and user of these radios, I can tell you that they have rejected all sorts of intermod and the like in which my ICOM W32A and ICOM 2800H just can't:

Syntor X9000 (all bands)
Spectra VHF/UHF
Astro Spectra VHF/800
Astro Saber VHF/UHF/800
XTL5000 VHF
XTS3000 VHF

Every ham radio I owned in the areas I have lived in just cannot filter out all the pager and two-way intermod. These have. Crisp, clear audio and won't worry that I'll break them. Batteries are cheaper and last longer with the commerical stuff too BTW.

Oh, and Motorola does make AA battery packs for a few radio lines (Such as the HT1250's and the like).

aa1mn

09-14-2005, 12:00 PM

Quote[/b] ]11 meters is CB. 10 meters is ham. No comparison. 11 meters is bad for the reasons listed, none of which apply to 10m. Different band, different rules, different operators, etc. No comparison. Don't really know why anybody would think there were any similarity, other than frequency, and there are(were) business and military frequencies just as close. That question shows a complete lack of understanding of the bands, and obviously didn't read what I said about 11.

An amateur radio license provides you with the privelages of operating on the amateur radio frequencies nothing more, nothing less.

It does not, and will not, make you any better or any worse than anyone else if they are a licensed amateur radio operator or not or if the operate on CB frequencies or not.

Should you believe differently kindly grasp both ears and pull hard to remove head from rectum.

Chuck, AA1MN

w6em

09-14-2005, 12:41 PM

Quote[/b] (KB1DIW @ Sep. 12 2005,22:59)]The JT1000 is not a modded radio. Out of the factory it was a field programmable radio. For the regs at the time, it needed to be somewhat restricted. A programming key was available. It was a $50 option.

The 1550 requrired a battery. Works the same way, but the regs changed since the JT1000 was out. You can FPP without a problem.

Neither radio's were restricted in sales or options. It was just a layer that the FCC had. Both radio's ARE type accepted. Its not just a "maintence" option. Not that it matters with the goverment, but the government JT1000 had a software flag turned on that allowed programming without the key. Takes about 2 secs to change.

The XTS5000 is available with a similar option, but is restricted by Motorola to the Wildland Services for the fires, and does not require a sep key or attachment. But, can be password protected.

As an owner and user of these radios, I can tell you that they have rejected all sorts of intermod and the like in which my ICOM W32A and ICOM 2800H just can't:

Syntor X9000 (all bands)
Spectra VHF/UHF
Astro Spectra VHF/800
Astro Saber VHF/UHF/800
XTL5000 VHF
XTS3000 VHF

Every ham radio I owned in the areas I have lived in just cannot filter out all the pager and two-way intermod. These have. Crisp, clear audio and won't worry that I'll break them. Batteries are cheaper and last longer with the commerical stuff too BTW.

Oh, and Motorola does make AA battery packs for a few radio lines (Such as the HT1250's and the like).
The hodge-podge you describe across NYC and state systems exists elsewhere as well. #Making radio system decisions isn't as simple as it once was, and lowest bid isn't the most important element of making a choice. #Interoperability capability should have always been the first consideration. #Closely followed by robust performance in just about any adverse circumstance imaginable. #After those two criteria have been fulfilled, then look at lowest cost.

The JT was sold primarily to NTIA-regulated federal agencies, thus exempt from Part 90. #Probably the same for your other radio example as well. #Federal users are not subject to Part 90 as you probably know.

JT would comply with the 90.203, as clipped above from the current, in-force, Code of Federal Regulations, so long as it wasn't field programmable directly by any operator besides the maintenance bench.

What you do, as a ham, to a type-accepted radio to make it keyboard programmable for use in the ham bands by any licensed amateur operator is just fine. #However, you just made it a radio that no longer complies with Part 90 type acceptance and use where Part 90 applies, while so-modified.

There has been a boat-load of discusssion on just this subject over at batlabs.com.

Yes, radios now are largely software-defined as far as their features are concerned. #It would likely be a very simple modification to the GP-68's Model Definition File or equivalent, to limit its programmability (and use) to the appropriate amateur bands. #Why /\/\ chose not to do this (and sell them as a "GP-68HAM" to amateurs in the US) speaks volumes.

I won't disagree with your comment you made about the /\/\ radios and their superior performance, based on your own experience with the two you've compared them to. #In fact, I'll agree. #I have some experience with the Spectra and a few others. #/\/\ still makes some of the most rugged, dependable hardware around.

Best 73,

Lee
W6EM

aa1mn

09-14-2005, 12:46 PM

Quote[/b] ]{or there's no one on frequency to respond (at least no one who knows what there (sic) doing)}

Yep, that would be CB.

You shouldn't judge others by your own incompetence.

Chuck, AA1MN

That was uncalled for. #Since I don't use CB, (for just the reasons cited) don't know where that came from. #Incompetent, I have never been called, by anyone with the facts. #Even when they don't like me, (and that's OK, nobody is liked by everyone) they have to acknowledge that I know bloody well what I am doing. #

So the previous post was written from an standpoint of ignorance. #Not wise.

Isn't passing judgement about people or things, such as CB and the people who use it, that you've admittadly don't use the very definition of incompetence?

Is that wise?

Chuck, AA1MN

K4JF

09-14-2005, 01:13 PM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Sep. 14 2005,05:00)]Quote[/b] ]11 meters is CB. #10 meters is ham. #No comparison. #11 meters is bad for the reasons listed, none of which apply to 10m. #Different band, different rules, different operators, etc. #No comparison. #Don't really know why anybody would think there were any similarity, other than frequency, and there are(were) business and military frequencies just as close. #That question shows a complete lack of understanding of the bands, and obviously didn't read what I said about 11.

An amateur radio license provides you with the privelages of operating on the amateur radio frequencies nothing more, nothing less.

It does not, and will not, make you any better or any worse than anyone else if they are a licensed amateur radio operator or not or if the operate on CB frequencies or not.

Should you believe differently kindly grasp both ears and pull hard to remove head from rectum.

Chuck, AA1MN
No need to remove anything, as I am not the one ignoring what happens on the lawless bands. The behavior is different, the result is different. Anyone who does not recognize the vast differences between 11m and any amateur band is keeping his/her vision severely obstructed by something!!

The license DOES make a difference. CB is just one of the proofs. Just look at the difference between what it is now and what it was when it was occupied by licensed people. I was there, were you?

Stop putting down Amateur Operators. They are putting their lives on the line RIGHT NOW helping other people.

K4JF

09-14-2005, 01:15 PM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Sep. 14 2005,05:46)]Quote[/b] ]{or there's no one on frequency to respond (at least no one who knows what there (sic) doing)}

Yep, that would be CB.

You shouldn't judge others by your own incompetence.

Chuck, AA1MN

That was uncalled for. #Since I don't use CB, (for just the reasons cited) don't know where that came from. #Incompetent, I have never been called, by anyone with the facts. #Even when they don't like me, (and that's OK, nobody is liked by everyone) they have to acknowledge that I know bloody well what I am doing. #

So the previous post was written from an standpoint of ignorance. #Not wise.

Isn't passing judgement about people or things, such as CB and the people who use it, that you've admittadly don't use the very definition of incompetence?

Is that wise?

Chuck, AA1MN
I don't pass judgement. I just call them as I see them. Nothing incompetent about that. Suggest you look up the definition of the word "incompetent".

ab8ma

09-14-2005, 01:22 PM

This thread is proof that a Solar Flare can be harmful to the Human mental state.

Sort of like packing a bunch of smokers into a small "smoking shelter" when it rains. Just another addiction.

KB1DIW

09-14-2005, 01:25 PM

Quote[/b] (w6em @ Sep. 14 2005,00:41)]The hodge-podge you describe across NYC and state systems exists elsewhere as well. #Making radio system decisions isn't as simple as it once was, and lowest bid isn't the most important element of making a choice. #Interoperability capability should have always been the first consideration. #Closely followed by robust performance in just about any adverse circumstance imaginable. #After those two criteria have been fulfilled, then look at lowest cost.

The JT was sold primarily to NTIA-regulated federal agencies, thus exempt from Part 90. #Probably the same for your other radio example as well. #Federal users are not subject to Part 90 as you probably know.

JT would comply with the 90.203, as clipped above from the current, in-force, Code of Federal Regulations, so long as it wasn't field programmable directly by any operator besides the maintenance bench.

What you do, as a ham, to a type-accepted radio to make it keyboard programmable for use in the ham bands by any licensed amateur operator is just fine. #However, you just made it a radio that no longer complies with Part 90 type acceptance and use where Part 90 applies, while so-modified.

There has been a boat-load of discusssion on just this subject over at batlabs.com.

Yes, radios now are largely software-defined as far as their features are concerned. #It would likely be a very simple modification to the GP-68's Model Definition File or equivalent, to limit its programmability (and use) to the appropriate amateur bands. #Why /\/\ chose not to do this (and sell them as a "GP-68HAM" to amateurs in the US) speaks volumes.

I won't disagree with your comment you made about the /\/\ radios and their superior performance, based on your own experience with the two you've compared them to. #In fact, I'll agree. #I have some experience with the Spectra and a few others. #/\/\ still makes some of the most rugged, dependable hardware around.

Best 73,

Lee
W6EM
The JT was actually quite a big seller besides federal agencies. They are/were big with the railroads (Conrail and CSX at the time were big into them), construction firms and the like.

The programming key was not, and is not, a restricted item. In actual use, they were found everywhere, especially in roving businesses. I had a friend who worked around the county working for one of the big name constuction companies and everyone had them. He left his key at home so he wouldn't loose it, but never had to venture far to reprogram the radio for new area he was in.

99% of agencies looking at new radio systems to not look at the interop factor unless it hinges on grant money, and usually they quailify as long as they can talk to their neighbors. Purchasing and installing two bands of radios is very cost prohibitive these days.

Again, I don't know what the facination of the GP68 is. Every ham HT is FPP, I don't know why people, ham in pictular, want one. Its a Eurpoean market radio, and serves no purpose in the US when you can buy a new dual /triband ht that is more flexible.

As a small point of clarification, most radios in the market are computer programable, but are not by definiation software defined. I am sure if just terminonlogy, but the first actual software defined radio passed its FCC acceptance test a few months ago. I forgot which manufacture developed it.

N2MMM

09-14-2005, 01:32 PM

I don't see the need for 27 Mhz CB. between FRS and 2 watt license free MURS which is the biggest secret in 2 way radio, CB isn't worth fooling with. As a licensed ham, I use both of these services to communicate with my wife and other unlicensed individuals. Old 23 channel CB radios are good for 6 meter conversions, however.

KB1DIW

09-14-2005, 01:34 PM

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Sep. 14 2005,01:13)]The license DOES make a difference. #CB is just one of the proofs. #Just look at the difference between what it is now and what it was when it was occupied by licensed people. #I was there, were you?

Stop putting down Amateur Operators. #They are putting their lives on the line RIGHT NOW helping other people.
So...let me ask you this...

Have you been listening to 80M lately, or in the past 5 years?

I can't tell the difference between CB or hams.

I have yet to see a HAM putting his "life on the line" in NO. Every report I see they are outside the kill zone and in a trailer or post somewhere. Unless they are wearing flak jackets and in with the SWAT teams helping with comms, don't overstate what's actually being done.

http://mas.scripps.com/WXYZ/2005/08/30/0508301703ham_e.jpg

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/7932/shelterop020qa.th.jpg
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1271/tenaeoc107gz.th.jpg
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2005/09/13/101/Katrina-SATERN-2ops.jpg
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2005/09/13/101/Katrina-RI-KA1FUP.jpg
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2005/09/13/101/Katrina-W1AGP-Sarratt.jpg
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2005/09/13/101/Katrina-W1AGP-i-NewGear.jpg
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/5691/hams1qo.jpg

aa1mn

09-14-2005, 01:37 PM

Quote[/b] ]The behavior is different, the result is different. Anyone who does not recognize the vast differences between 11m and any amateur band is keeping his/her vision severely obstructed by something!!

The license DOES make a difference. CB is just one of the proofs. Just look at the difference between what it is now and what it was when it was occupied by licensed people. I was there, were you

No, the license does not make a difference at all.

The same can be said of amateur radio operators and the amateur bands that can be said of CB operators and the CB band. Both now and when a license was required for CB.

People operate on both amateur radio frequencies and CB frequencies. A wide range of people both good, bad, and in between.

Any one who is not able to comprehend that is incompetent by any definition in any dictionary of the English language.

When have I put down amateur operators? Or does praising CB equate to the same as putting down amateur operators?

Yes, I was there and still am.

Chuck, AA1MN

KB1DIW

09-14-2005, 01:40 PM

Nice one Chuck http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I have never understood people who think that people who like to use the CB are failed hams. If they wanted to talk about recent surgery, "hows my signal" and other meaningless converstations, they would have a ham license. I hear more interesting WELL ROUNDED conversations on the CB than on the local 2M "Death Net".

They let us be, we let them be.

aa1mn

09-14-2005, 02:51 PM

[B]Thanks, KB1DIW.

I acknowledge K4JF's right to his views as well as his right to express them here or in any other appropriate forum. However, it is nice to balance things out every now and then on the related issue.

Amateurs are, in general, a great bunch of people just as those on the CB can be as well.

All told, human beings are the greatest source of free entertainment this universe has to offer ... of course, it can legitimately be said that I add to that entertainment value quite a bit myself!

Chuck, AA1MN

K8TEK

09-14-2005, 03:19 PM

I better stop typing on my keyboard as it is a risk to my health according to the sticker.

Hams risking their lifes in New Orleans, Please. KC2KIT, KB1DIW and myself risk our lives on a daily basis.

aa1mn

09-14-2005, 04:35 PM

Quote[/b] ]Hams risking their lifes in New Orleans, Please. KC2KIT, KB1DIW and myself risk our lives on a daily basis.

Having family members who are members of the local volunteer fire department -- no, they're not hams though -- I really have to back you up on this.

You and they are the first lines of defense and do put your life and well being on the line every day 365, 24, 7.

It is appreciated.

Chuck, AA1MN

K0RGR

09-14-2005, 06:24 PM

The only ham I've heard risking his life so far was the one on 3873 who was on the 4th floor of the hospital they were trying to evacuate with all the other people who didn't get out for days.

A lot (hundreds, at least) of hams are putting their lives aside to help out with the disaster, and they deserve credit.

As for the technological merit of various vendor's radio gear - Motorola radios are great as long as they have batteries. The police radios in New Orleans ran out of batteries before day 2. More were shipped in, fully charged, but nobody was there to pass them out, apparently.

There was a report on the ARRL website that the Coast Guard radios were so wonderful that hams were modifying their VHF radios and giving it to them when the Coast Guard radios crapped out.

w6em

09-14-2005, 10:48 PM

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Sep. 13 2005,14:24)]The only ham I've heard risking his life so far was the one on 3873 who was on the 4th floor of the hospital they were trying to evacuate with all the other people who didn't get out for days.

A lot (hundreds, at least) of hams are putting their lives aside to help out with the disaster, and they deserve credit.

As for the technological merit of various vendor's radio gear - Motorola radios are great as long as they have batteries. The police radios in New Orleans ran out of batteries before day 2. #More were shipped in, fully charged, but nobody was there to pass them out, apparently.

There was a report on the ARRL website that the Coast Guard radios were so wonderful that hams were modifying their VHF radios and giving it to them when the Coast Guard radios crapped out.
The NO trunked system was 800MHz Ericsson/M&A Comm gear, so it wasn't from #mother #/\/\.

A lot of good fresh batteries would be for a bunch of 800MHz HTs on one simplex channel.

If, of course, my information sources were all correct.

One of the problems encountered down here with hurricane Charley was reliance on an in-station, mains-powered group chargers. #No epower for it and, no individual or vehicular chargers, at least in one city. #So, when the batteries went south, the HTs were worthless. More poor planning.

Interesting point about the CG radios. #And, the fix. #Another reason for conventional radio systems. #Commonality across manufacturers and even field adaptations in emergencies. #TRUNK = JUNK #(My Opinion)

Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL

KB1DIW

09-15-2005, 02:22 AM

So, a conventional system without any infrastruce and dead batteries is much better than a trunked system without any infrastrure and dead batteries is better?

Dude, your nuts.

The problem wasn't with the equipment in far as the design. It was the lack or proper procedures and planning.

The city had fairly reliable communications until the roof top generator got hit with debris and poking a hole in a radaiator. That's where the prime site was. Once the UPS ran down, that was it. A conventional system would have met the same fate. Nevermind that many of the other towers will killed off by floodwaters, wind, lack of fuel and other assorted damage.

You need to get you head out of you rectal cavitity if you think one system is better than the other. Both have their places. In fact, trunked systems by design are more fault tolerant than most conventional systems.

w6em

09-15-2005, 03:16 AM

Quote[/b] (KB1DIW @ Sep. 13 2005,22:22)]So, a conventional system without any infrastruce and dead batteries is much better than a trunked system without any infrastrure and dead batteries is better?

Dude, your #nuts.

The problem wasn't with the equipment in far as the design. It was the lack or proper procedures and planning.

The city had fairly reliable communications until the roof top generator got hit with debris and poking a hole in a radaiator. That's where the prime site was. Once the UPS ran down, that was it. A conventional system would have met the same fate. Nevermind that many of the other towers will killed off by floodwaters, wind, lack of fuel and other assorted damage.

You need to get you head out of you rectal cavitity if you think one system is better than the other. Both have their places. In fact, trunked systems by design are more fault tolerant than most conventional systems.
Well, since you tell us that the "prime site" went down, that's just what was needed to kill the whole collection of trunk junk.

A conventional system of multiple repeaters would have just lost one repeater, not the WHOLE system. And, mobiles would have still had some repeaters and not be relegated to simplex, unit to unit communications. Trunked systems are more susceptible to single point failure, I'm afraid. If they weren't, then why were none of the other trunked equipment locations able to function? Simple: No central controller.

800MHz HTs of any kind aren't worth too much as simplex-only assets. Thought you'd pick up on that.

If you really have to resort to all sorts of wild adjectives and name-calling, you've displayed a great deal about yourself.

Here's hoping you someday get your earlier-expressed wish: #That your 'boss' agrees to a trunked system for whatever your primary job tasks are. #Hopefully, not life-safety related. #Maybe you're in public works. Then, if it takes a total system dump in a crisis, thanks to the 'bonker' controller dying, tell us what it was like.

Do you suppose giving the Coast Guard personnel a modified amateur HT to allow them to continue to rescue people (when their radios died for whatever the reason) would have been able to happen if the Coast Guard used a trunked system? #If you think so, well, its time for some Halcyon for you.

Quite a few trunkers dumped down here in last year's hurricane crises for a variety of reasons. #Too many uninformed telecommunications decision makers. #Lured by the promises of greater 'flexibility' and 'higher utilization of hardware' (translated: wait til the next available channel). #Bonk, bonk, bonk. #Bonk, bonk, bonk.

Turn on that outside speaker!!! #You could probably get some Canadian Geese to come fly by.....

Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL

K8TEK

09-15-2005, 04:10 AM

I am not even going to touch that...

KB1DIW

09-15-2005, 01:43 PM

NO has three sites, which are reduandant to each other in case of a controller failure. The one on top of the Energy Building downtown was the prime site, and the one with the most channel capacity. ALL three sites were damaged by the the storm. Simplex in any band is not idea for citywide operations. 800 simplex is just as good as any, depends on your terrain. Thisi is from experience.

They were using the 5 NSPAC channels, and with a large city with muliple agencies coming in, or course its going to be crammed. It simply comes down to lack of user training, precedures and planning. Its that simple. No one thought that this could happen.

In terms of equipment failure, the Motorola (and MA/COM for that fact) has several levels or redunacy built in for radios to operate...all the way down to it flipping itself into a conventional system.

Please, get a real education on how trunked radio systems work before trying to knock them.

FYI-Your phone company has used trunking for many, many years. Perhaps we should go back to using an operator to complete each of our calls?

w6em

09-15-2005, 07:13 PM

Quote[/b] (KB1DIW @ Sep. 14 2005,09:43)]NO has three sites, which are reduandant to each other in case of a controller failure. The one on top of the Energy Building downtown was the prime site, and the one with the most channel capacity. ALL three sites were damaged by the the storm. Simplex in any band is not idea for citywide operations. 800 simplex is just as good as any, depends on your terrain. Thisi is from experience.

They were using the 5 NSPAC channels, and with a large city with muliple agencies coming in, or course its going to be crammed. It simply comes down to lack of user training, precedures and planning. Its that simple. No one thought that this could happen.

In terms of equipment failure, the Motorola (and MA/COM for that fact) has several levels or redunacy built in for radios to operate...all the way down to it flipping itself into a conventional system.

Please, get a real education on how trunked radio systems work before trying to knock them.

FYI-Your phone company has used trunking for many, many years. Perhaps we should go back to using an operator to complete each of our calls?
I know plenty about queueing.

Public landline telephone switches and even their cellular counterparts fail to handle peak demands for just the same reason that trunked radio systems don't, besides their other problems. The media constantly tells people not to use the phone unless its absolutely necessary after a major event. Oh, yawn, I suppose municipalities could tell the gardeners, building inspectors, mosquito abatement workers and tractor drivers to turn off their trunked radios in a crisis. They might remember. Then again, they might not even know there's a crisis going on. They don't have the "personality" to know. :-)

Probably the best analogy for how the public behaves with respect to the phone system is portrayed in a graphic shot of the Chicago Commodity Pits. Waving orders and shouting, hoping to be heard.

I'll trust Factory Mutual's opinion of trunked radios for people who's lives are on the line frequently enough for some deadly consequences, if they have to wait........and hear that "bonk" greet them in a panic, because the mosquito abatement sprayer needs more soup. And, perhaps cost them their lives in the mean time.

NO and NYC and other trunked system failures were learning opportunities for public safety leaders. If APCO were truly observant, and not perhaps in a mode of having to defend some of its own wrong decisions promoting trunking, it might have the guts to toss it out once and for all.

The APCO Vice President just testified about all the communications failures before the FCC. He's an employee of the Shreveport, LA Fire Department. If I were a Commissioner, I would have asked him just one question after he read his prepared remarks: If Factory Mutual doesn't trust trunked systems in life safety applications, why does APCO?

Lee
W6EM

KB1DIW

09-15-2005, 10:22 PM

Quote[/b] ]Public landline telephone switches and even their cellular counterparts fail to handle peak demands for just the same reason that trunked radio systems don't, besides their other problems. #The media constantly tells people not to use the phone unless its absolutely necessary after a major event. #Oh, yawn, I suppose municipalities could tell the gardeners, building inspectors, mosquito abatement workers and tractor drivers to turn off their trunked radios in a crisis. #They might remember. #Then again, they might not even know there's a crisis going on. #They don't have the "personality" to know. #:-)

First off, you know nothing about trunking. 2nd, radio's issued to less than public safety needs are tyically programmed as the bottom of the barrell for system access. If a cop and a DPW guy were trying to get channel grants on at a congested time, the DPW guy would be given a busy signal.

Quote[/b] ]I'll trust Factory Mutual's opinion of trunked radios for people who's lives are on the line frequently enough for some deadly consequences, if they have to wait........and hear that "bonk" greet them in a panic, because the mosquito abatement sprayer needs more soup. #And, perhaps cost them their lives in the mean time.

FM has specifications for equipment to be IS. Thats it. NFPA, which is not a governing or govermental agency, does recommend that fireground operations not to be conducted on a trunked system, but in realitiy, that doesn't usally happen. Fire departments can do whatever they wish.

Quote[/b] ]NO and NYC and other trunked system failures were learning opportunities for public safety leaders. #If APCO were truly observant, and not perhaps in a mode of having to defend some of its own wrong decisions promoting trunking, it might have the guts to toss it out once and for all.

The problem wasn't trunking. Its was a compleletly un-thought of events that TOOK OUT THE INFRASTRURE and was not a system equipment failure. All NY department services were still operating and had communications via their other facilities when the tower came down. The problem in NYC was people not working together, and poor planning.

Quote[/b] ]The APCO Vice President just testified about all the communications failures before the FCC. #He's an employee of the Shreveport, LA Fire Department. #If I were a Commissioner, I would have asked him just one question after he read his prepared remarks: #If Factory Mutual doesn't trust trunked systems in life safety applications, why does APCO?

Again, FM doesn't play radio. They write specifications for the industrial sector. Depending on the make or model, the are certified to FM specs for explosive/volital atmospheres.

Get your facts straight.

w6em

09-16-2005, 04:06 AM

Quote[/b] (KB1DIW @ Sep. 14 2005,18:22)]Quote[/b] ]Public landline telephone switches and even their cellular counterparts fail to handle peak demands for just the same reason that trunked radio systems don't, besides their other problems. #The media constantly tells people not to use the phone unless its absolutely necessary after a major event. #Oh, yawn, I suppose municipalities could tell the gardeners, building inspectors, mosquito abatement workers and tractor drivers to turn off their trunked radios in a crisis. #They might remember. #Then again, they might not even know there's a crisis going on. #They don't have the "personality" to know. #:-)

First off, you know nothing about trunking. 2nd, radio's issued to less than public safety needs are tyically programmed as the bottom of the barrell for system access. If a cop and a DPW guy were trying to get channel grants on at a congested time, the DPW guy would be given a busy signal.

Quote[/b] ]I'll trust Factory Mutual's opinion of trunked radios for people who's lives are on the line frequently enough for some deadly consequences, if they have to wait........and hear that "bonk" greet them in a panic, because the mosquito abatement sprayer needs more soup. #And, perhaps cost them their lives in the mean time.

FM has specifications for equipment to be IS. Thats it. NFPA, which is not a governing or govermental agency, does recommend that fireground operations not to be conducted on a trunked system, but in realitiy, that doesn't usally happen. Fire departments can do whatever they wish.

Quote[/b] ]NO and NYC and other trunked system failures were learning opportunities for public safety leaders. #If APCO were truly observant, and not perhaps in a mode of having to defend some of its own wrong decisions promoting trunking, it might have the guts to toss it out once and for all.

The problem wasn't trunking. Its was a compleletly un-thought of events that TOOK OUT THE INFRASTRURE and was not a system equipment failure. All NY department services were still operating and had communications via their other facilities when the tower came down. The problem in NYC was people not working together, and poor planning.

Quote[/b] ]The APCO Vice President just testified about all the communications failures before the FCC. #He's an employee of the Shreveport, LA Fire Department. #If I were a Commissioner, I would have asked him just one question after he read his prepared remarks: #If Factory Mutual doesn't trust trunked systems in life safety applications, why does APCO?

Again, FM doesn't play radio. They write specifications for the industrial sector. Depending on the make or model, the are certified to FM specs for explosive/volital atmospheres.

Get your facts straight.
I won't result to your form of personal attacks, so this will be my last post.

You deserve a trunked system. Go for it, like I said.
One that gives you exactly what you deserve.

I'll gladly end this exchange letting you think you are absolutely right. I know nothing about trunked systems.

Few recommendations in this world are truely binding. But, to ignore them, is to risk reliving the events they were based upon.

Besides, colossal telecomm failures allow amateur radio the opportunity to save the day. Not all bad, I guess. ARES does stand for something good, don't you think?

KB1DIW

09-16-2005, 05:02 AM

Once ARES stops trying to replace 911 centers, sure. That's another 1st hand story.

K4JF

09-17-2005, 04:11 PM

Quote[/b] (KB1DIW @ Sep. 15 2005,22:02)]Once ARES stops trying to replace 911 centers, sure. That's another 1st hand story.
And just who else has the equipment, training and capability to substitute for destroyed 911 centers until they can be replaced or repaired? Answer: absolutely nobody.

KB1DIW

09-17-2005, 10:05 PM

This is a true story that happened this spring here in the county.

This is a from a friend and coworker:

Blah blah blah......When I took theSkyWarn class he stood up and announced to the room that (local radio club) was the official backup and solution for all emergency communications for public safety in the County. Maybe he didn't realize there were two 911 Dispatchers (My wife and I) our Boss the 911 Coordinator for the county and one of our Fire Service Battalion Chiefs. We got up and left the room.. and fast. My wife was about to start spewing reality and it wouldn't have been pretty.

The next morning on my way to work I was talking to a friend on the repeater about a project I was messing with at the time when this idiot chimed in. It was a priceless conversation. I spent 5 minutes telling him that he doesn't even come close to having a clue about emergency services and he should step aside and let the real professionals handle it. His reply was "I took 2 training courses with the ARRL, what kind of training do you have?". I had to pull over and park for a minute because I was laughing so hard. I kindly asked for my friend Don to give him a reference for me, I was only a block from work at that point and if I sat on the repeater any longer I would have really gotten grumpy... and late for work. Both of which I do try to avoid at all costs.

Where I previoulsy worked, we had the same problem as well. Ham clubs who had ARES people who thought they could run dispatch centers more effectively in any emergency than the people who work in them 40+ hours a week. We actually had a list of aproved hams that could work with Emergency Prepardness, and had a radio setup behind the dispatch rooms in the CP office.

I know they are out there, but I have yet to meet, speak or come across a professional group who actually has a plan with a town/city.

ka5s

09-18-2005, 02:20 AM

Quote[/b] (KB1DIW @ Sep. 17 2005,15:05)]Where I previoulsy worked, we had the same problem as well. Ham clubs who had ARES people who thought they could run dispatch centers more effectively in any emergency than the people who work in them 40+ hours a week. We actually had a list of aproved hams that could work with Emergency Prepardness, and had a radio setup behind the dispatch rooms in the CP office.

I know they are out there, but I have yet to meet, speak or come across a professional group who actually has a plan with a town/city.
Our ACS (California version of RACES+) group once had a tabletop exercise where members were tasked to act as engine, truck, ambulance, dispatcher.... It started out fine. Then the calls started to come in. Heh!

There are schools that teach dispatching. You can't just jump in and do it. I did pretty well; IIRC, I only lost track of two engines. When you need six, though, that's a lot.

Humble pie was eaten that night. Mission accomplished, I think.

FWIW, ACS has a state mandated training requirement so we at least can function within the ICS.

BTW, what has this to do with solar flares? Are we bringing them to QRZ?

Cortland
KA5S

K4AVG

09-18-2005, 02:26 AM

Hello everyone, I just read someone's comment Quote[/b] ]( is there any scientific info correlating sun spots to weather events? Just a thought)

I did a little reaserch of my own and found a sort of pattern. Maybe I am crazy (DUH;0) but I looked from 1990 until 2005 and there seems to be a pattern.

someone check me on that!!

ka5s

09-18-2005, 02:42 AM

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Sep. 17 2005,09:11)]who else has the equipment, training and capability to substitute for destroyed 911 centers until they can be replaced or repaired? #Answer: absolutely nobody.
Been there, done that. #I lost the T shirt, though.

We do not replace a 911 center. #If they're prepared and trained (and they are) the departments concerned can do that themselves. All you have to do is help them talk. #

When the power went out on the West Coast back in the 90's we lost the whole 911 system in Irvine. #Our (PD organized and trained) radio club put teams of operators with the FD and PD communicators on portables at alternate locations and 911 calls were handled via walk-ups at specified locations in town where there was an engine or an IDEC member. #We were not dispatching! We were "fire boxes" (remember them?) for folks who had no contact with safety and law enforcement via the inoperative 911 system.

Only a small number of calls actually had to be handled, thank goodness, but they were handled, so the FD (who of course had never worked with us, we being the PD's baby) was happy with the result.

If memory serves, however, when the fire department offered IDEC a FD radio our sponsors vetoed it. PD is PD and FD is FD and never the twain shall meet. #Look for that attitude in N.O., too.

Cortland
KA5S

K4JF

09-18-2005, 03:39 AM

Quote[/b] (ka5s @ Sep. 17 2005,19:42)]If memory serves, however, when the fire department offered IDEC a FD radio our sponsors vetoed it. PD is PD and FD is FD and never the twain shall meet. #Look for that attitude in N.O., too.

Cortland
KA5S
And that is one of the problems that must be overcome. There is no logical reason for them to not work together.

KB1DIW

09-18-2005, 04:48 AM

What does IDAC stand for?

Either way, that is a better example how the emergency wannabe's in amatuer radio needs to operate. In addition, even though the rules can be put aside for emergency situations there are way too many hard noses that just *have* to run a net with at a snails pace like a traffic net. In true emergency, you cannot do that. You need to get the info across in any way you can. No "break", "station Id via ID via ID" etc.

ka5s

09-18-2005, 05:35 AM

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Sep. 17 2005,20:39)]And that is one of the problems that must be overcome. #There is no logical reason for them to not work together.
Ayup! Inter-agency politics.

It took Senators Goldwater and Nichols to get the miltary to do less politicking and more cooperating.

"I come from the city of Boston,
The home of the bean and the cod
Where the Lowells speak only to Cabots
And the Cabots speak only to God."

Did someone mention a fire?

Cortland
KA5S

ka5s

09-18-2005, 06:07 AM

Quote[/b] (KB1DIW @ Sep. 17 2005,21:48)]What does IDAC stand for?
IDEC (http://www.cityofirvine.org/ipd/info_center/idec_ham_radio.asp) stands for Irvine Disaster Emergency Communications, who, since they are trained and supervised by the Irvine police, may be called up for all kinds of support activity (http://www.irvineworldnews.com/Astories/july3/response.html).

They do good work. As for politics, July 1996 (http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/18.25.html#subj1) was more than 9 years ago and I left Irvine in 1997, so I can't say what that's like there now.

Cortland
KA5S

DU7FBT

09-26-2005, 01:01 AM

Talking about solar flux. I have not been updated on the 11 year cycle. Can someone update me what stage are we in now on the cycle?

73's du7/fbt

KB1DIW

09-26-2005, 01:11 AM

Last I heard, we are suppose to be in the low. Just a few fluke events, or the star is self destructing. Somewhere in between those two extreme's http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

AE4TM

09-30-2005, 03:41 AM

Quote[/b] (w6em @ Sep. 10 2005,18:54)]Quote[/b] (K2TFT @ Sep. 09 2005,17:58)]Well, the pactor station are still transmitting into no where, as usual, still without using callsigns.....SOOOO
I reckon digital aint dead. HAR HAR HAR HAR!!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Oh, no. That can't possibly be true. Pactor stations ID in pactor-only format. It must be that you can't decipher their calls.

So, unless you (or the FCC) have a special pactor box, you won't know who they are. Or, what the content of their transmissions are.

I think I'm right about that. Maybe if I'm not, some of the pactor enthusiasts will tell me how non-pactor listeners can ID the robots.....

Although, unless you have a packet TNC, you won't know the call of a packet station sending bursts either.

Lee
In the event you are not aware,

I send both a CW ID and Pactor ID every 10 minutes as required by the FCC rules when conducting my HF Pactor propagation experiments. This includes an ID at the beginning as well as end of every propagation experiment link.

http://ecjones.org/

On those occasional instances I cannot communicate to the outside world with a satellite phone because of high canyons (areas I enjoy visiting because of their beauty-link below), I rely on HF radio such as Winlink. The last time I used the system to send a message to my parents near Tampa FL, I confirmed the system sends out a CW ID that cannot be disabled. It also sends out my GPS coordinates in the event of a breakdown. Death Valley can be a hostile environment and communications by any means can mean life over death!

Titus Canyon, Death Valley Nat Park (http://www.ecjones.org/scenery/_Death_Valley_Nat_Park/_Titus_Canyon/Canyon/)

The shear price of the following tow bill out of Death Valley should suggest how dangerous and remote this beautiful area can be. Without Winlink, both my son and I would now be dead because it was the only means we had at the time to reach the outside world during a major solar flare!

Death Valley Towing Bill (http://www.ecjones.org/scenery/_Death_Valley_Nat_Park/_Saline_Valley/Saline_Tow_Bill.jpg)

Your comments at top suggest you cannot copy CW without the assistance of a "pactor box"-of course many want CW banned from the HF bands as well. I can't copy HF packet as well but could if I had the interest to receive the signals .

Dr. "Robot" (alias Ed AE4TM)

WA7VTD

10-30-2005, 06:26 PM

Quote[/b] (W8NSI @ Sep. 08 2005,16:28)]Quote[/b] ]And this is at the bottom of the sunspot cycle! How low in freq do aurora effects extend. I have worked aurora on 10 before but have never checked lower.

I encountered Auroral propagation on 40 meters in 1988. This was generally thought not possible but not long thereafter, the ARRL Handbook noted that rare experiences of auroral scatter on 40 M had been reported.

I was on CW and my signal was backscattering and sidescattering in a crazy fashion. I thought at first that someone was playing with me because when I sent a "dit," I would hear the dit about one second later with a different pitch. So I did several rapid, random QSY but the phenomenon continued. I then assumed I was hearing my signal circumnavigating the Earth, with doppler shift. This went on for over an hour.

There was a lot of post-flare "buzz" on the band and I was not hearing many stations, only a handful across the entire band. Those on SSB were very fluttery and the propagation was coming from several different places, and changing instantly, as if someone were changing the positions on a coax switch controlling the receiver's selection of several yagis in different directions. The DX I was hearing was mainly from Africa, but it would pop in and out like a light switch being flipped.

I had a very similar, but more profound, experience operating from the Amazon jungle of northern Peru in 1980. After flare activity, I was working Australia and Europe 90 degrees off of their great circle paths, with a great amount of flutter. I was near the Equator which made this all the more odd. This was on 15 and 20 meters.

- Kevin Hunt WA7VTD
Oregon City, OR

WA7VTD

10-30-2005, 06:46 PM

Quote[/b] (w6em @ Sep. 13 2005,15:04)]I know, this is a looooong way from propagation, but, in crises like what we've just seen, having a few of those GP-68 HTs donated by /\/\ would have surely been helpful. #And, an STA from the FCC would have allowed their legal use in coordinating between amateur and public safety services like the Coast Guard and FEMA much easier.....

Lee
W6EM

Great points, Lee. The GP-2000 is an example of a fine Motorola frequency-agile, 99-channel, user front panel programmable VHF HT that now is encountering similar problems as the GP-68 re. domestic sales even though it meets technical specs.

Also, a look at the specs of many of the latest higher-end amateur gear reveals that the frequency stability and spurious emission suppresion meets or exceeds land mobile requirements. But now that the gear is meeting those standards, it's been decided that in a few months, it will no longer be legal to use modified ham gear for MARS, CAP or Coast Guard Auxiliary. (This aleady applies to HTs). This makes no sense and will greatly inhibit recruiting for those essential programs.

As for the FCC issuing an STA, don't hold your breath. I invite you to go to the FCC site and read the "report" given to Dept. of Homeland Security re. FCC's "response" to Katrina. A total of 8, double-spaced pages. No mention of amateur radio or RACES, an