n9lya
09-03-2005, 03:50 AM
Hi Guys..
First I want to say.. our Prayers or with those in the south that lost their lives and loved ones and with the survivors of those who lost their lives in hopes they can somehow put together something of what they had and work towards fulfillment of their dreams. Which was severely interrupted by the Hurricane that swept through that region.
I can only say... Not having TV since the 20th of August (lightening Strike and SLOOOW insurance company) has spared me much of the media hyp of the catastrophe... I still stop quite often throughout the day and just want to cry for those who are suffering and continue to suffer this great hardship... Makes one realise just how little we actually have to complain about..
Saw this on our Packet Net.. See **** BELOW>>> Sure was easy to get over HF PACKET.. Not sure where they get their ideas.. But let me tell you a story.. most of you are familiar.
on 8-20-05 our home was hit with lightening, actually it was a direct hit on my 10 meter antennas.. We were all knocked on our butts and we very set back by the experience.. I found after making sure all of us were ok... That Amongst a lot of other damaged devices.. That Most of my HF BBS which I host here at my home (W9OTR and N9LYA ) were virtually blown away... However, due to the low costs involved by the ability to use low end PCs and just about any HF rig and the fact that TNC's are a dime a dozen.. I was able to get 3 out of 5 HF ports back in operation the same day, in fact within an hour the first one was back on line the second within 3 hours. . The Third before night fall, and 4th took a bit longer and VHF was up and down over the next few days.. Today 9-2-05 the station is 100% again.. however I consolidated W9OTR and N9LYA into one BBS. for now. It has 4 HF 2 VHF and 1 UHF ports all originally built on the low end of the cost equation. And all replaced out of spare parts that I had on hand and had accumulated on the used markets mostly via eBay.. Except for one radio my Icom2100H which I bought new on EBay at an extreme discount. I personally fund all radio activity here at home for the HARDS group.. and we work together to help one another out.. I had many offers of equipment form those in our grup that I am convinced that even with 100% loss I could have been back on line as fast as equipemnt could have been delivered. I was not the first in our group to take a lightening hit.. WB3DTG took a big hit a week or two before me and had his staion partially back on air within days/ I am now forwarding with him on two ports again.. Not sure of his status today, as far as anything new.. But he is coming in here real well on HF. And is actively masking repairs. I reaallyu doubt too many would have the funds to replace P4 boxes and SCS Pactor III Modems prior to an insurance payout. Thus why I only use low end equipment that works great with Packet and allows me to share messages and traffic with those who run Packet/Pactor systems like wb3dtg.
Do not get me wrong... I have and plan to continue to experiement with the faters modes.. But my system will always be based on HF Packet ....Read on.
I challenge anyone to take a modern high speed data system and expand it into a multiported HF BBS (message handling system) which must be run on high end PC's with Highend HF gear. As well as a lot of the proprietary modes that require high priced Controllers ... To build and sustain a system for years. And then suffer a third of the damage I suffered and rebuild it without taking out a mortgage on your home... I spent all of $200 to get back to 100% And was at 80% same day within hours of strike.. even though the wife and I had both been hit by the EMP of the lightening.. This would have rendered most system off air for the wait for Insurance and new parts to be ordered and delivered.. Not so with Packet.. it is viable and can be had by most hams on a budget... To Ban HF Packet one might as well BAN CW.. It won't happen.. It can't happen.. Or the Systems in place will be too fragile at best..
I am not saying the New modes are not good most are... PSK31 Q15X25 Pactor I Are all good..
These augment our national and worldwide network infrastructure...But they cannot and will never replace Packet without cutting out a majority of Hams who operate their stations for personal as well as Volunteer reasons for emcomms and the general communications of hams on their OWN worldwide network.. As they will be under budget to setup and maintain a system that can be both robust and efficient as well as easily replaced within hours...
I believe the IARU Region I DV05-C4-14 author is not knowledgeable in this area and has no clue what packet can and does do .... I invite him to please consider talking with us and letting us explain and by example show him that Packet Radio is the Root means of the worldwide HF Digital Network. And without it the Ham Community will be seriously cutting back on its resources...
Let us explain and show why his statements about propagation and QRM are false and those opinions of the misinformed. Packet radio has been and always ignored by the ARRL as well and all their marbles were put in to the TOR modes.. For the ARRL to only end up with not... And yet the Packet Network has suffered but yet sustained itself by those hams who dedicate themselves to building and maintaining the Worldwide Network.
Example.. Our system today and prior to and during the Hurricane that Hit the Gulf Coast were directly linked to a number of Packet Stations at Emergency Locations.. Example is New Orleans W5OEP Station in the New Orleans Emergency Radio Club Stationed at their Emergency Shelter.. With Beams and other types of antennas on the roof of several tall buildings, and Battery Backups.. The stations have run throughout the emergency linked to our Packet Network via several bands and frequencies. This is due to the inherent low costs of such systems.. take the typical Winlink PMBO.. Avg $5000. For radios proprietary controllers, software Internet connections etc... we can do the same with packet for considerably less.. Lets see.. no internet needed, HAMS use Radios. A ts 520 can be had for $100 on eBay xtled for $20 and an homemade inverted V can be made for less tem $40 a KAM TNC Used at EBay for $75 and a PC IBM XT class or better FREE MSYS Software and you have an HF Packet Station... It can had additional equipment for multiport Multi BBS system and national hubs.. Or you can just have a casual user station... I do not see the logic in cutting ones head off in spite of their face.. If you do not like Packet you do not have to use it..If you strictly want to use a Faster Newer mode and have the funds to do so .. Fine.. Add a Packet port and work with us not against us... There are times here when with my many HF ports messages are being sent in and out at a high rate of speed... Over several bands as the bands are open and closed at differing times of day... I offered this same scenario to the Winlink2K Group... Work with us not against us... Only to be ridiculed.. I see it as their lack of knowledge of the digital arts ... And just a wanton act of conspiracy to kill any direct competition... Money flying between someones hands. They know packet is a great competitor and with the advent of the faster modes ran by those who have the funds to augment their packet systems or those who have no desire to run packet but will link with those that do.. We can make the HAM RADIO Digital Network a great thing.. Far superior to any single mode or modes.. Think of Packet Networking as a low and high cost system... Fully compatable within and of itself.. It can be fully isolated from teh WIREline.. Wheich is where everyone seems to be headed.. Let me ask a question.. Any phones or wired modes working in New Orleans LA..
Now I see why the CW ops are saying the removal of CW as a requirement will mean the death of CW.. It is all too easy to kill something... Man is a great destroyer.. What we need here is cooperation, Creativeness and a new level of invention... The problems with packet in the 80's and 90's were that everyone wanted speed and more speed.. they wanted the Internet type things... But did not want to spend the money on equipment to go faster VIA RADIO... Why would they want to spend that Money now.. When they have all THEY want on the internet... That is all fine and good for them.. If they want to chat live with uncle Bill or aunt gracie via VOiP thats ok.. If they want to talk to an other HAM on VOiP thats their business, As long as it does not replace Ham RADIO... What I propose is we finally do what I envisioned in the 90's.... Enhance packet radio with faster modes... For those with the financial means make it happen. For those on a budget work with what you can.. Compatability is the KEY. Compatability does not mean it must be SLOW... Those who make the faster modes work can work on way to cut costs... Experiment with faster packet, on HF. Continue working on soundcards BBS Software,.. Experiment with BBS Software that will allow Pactor Packet a form of Q15X25 being worked with now by my good friend N5PVL on 18 MHz.. I will let him add what this does for HF Throughput... We are breaking new ground with faster modes.. But they are all compatible with Packet AX25 on HF... Unlike the expensive WINLINK2000 which is not.
As far as the comments about better immunity against propagation problems and co-channel QRM... That is simply not that big a problem.. Multi HF Ports help Proagation. Yes QRM is but by far mostly Pactor Robots tend to not listen first and destroys a packet link out right.... Packet uses carrier sensing. to know when a channel is in use.. Pactor only senses Pactor..
See www.USPacket.Org the only truly almost live updated Packet information Website. Look around and enjoy.
I urge all HAMS and others in our group to please add to my statements, all facts that will show or substantiate our claims or their claims.. I believe you will see.. The truth..
Let us get off our butts and quit trying to KILL HAM RADIO and work together for a change to make it the Greatest thing since sliced Bread.
Our prayers are witth our fellow HAMS and brothers and sisters who are in the Hurricane Ravaged areas.. And that they get their lives back to some form of reason as soon as possible.
73 Jerry Kutche N9LYA
Trustee HARDS Hoosier Amateur Radio Digital Society W9OTR "We make Ham radio Easy" Dedicated to the preservation and enhansement of the Worldwide Digital Network.
ARRL Net Manger Indiana Section
Net Manager ARRL Skipnets NET 40E and NET147E
MSYS BBS Sysop of W9OTR/W9BBS/K9BBS/N9LYA Full Service Packet Radio BBS and Midwest US Packet Forwarding HUB.
Director USPacket.Net
Member SPAR www.spar-ham.org
Member TAPR
Member ISCET
Memeber ARRL
Member ARES
www.w9otr.org
www.n9lya.com
www.USPacket.Org
************************************************** **********
International Amateur Radio Union Region 1 Europe, Middle East, Africa and Northern Asia Founded 1950 General Conference, Davos, 11 to 16 September 2005 SUBJECT Abandonment of Packet Radio on HF (AX25 standard with 300 Baud, 200 Hz shift) Society DARC Country: Germany Committee: C4 Paper number: 14 Contact: Ulrich Mueller, DK4VW e-mail: dk4vw@darc.de Introduction This paper recommends to discontinue the operation of packet radio mailboxes and gateways on HF and explains why. Background Although packet radio mode made it possible in the eighties to run new things like mailboxes, gateways etc., packet radio never was an adequate mode for the existing conditions on HF bands. Problems with packet radio mode were learned by practice and proofed by closer theoretical studies. Later other modes have been developed (first AMTOR, then PACTOR, PSK31, MT63, just to mention some) which could handle e.g. messages exchange with better immunity against propagation problems, co-channel QRM etc. all of them show a better data throughput. Keypoints Replacing packet radio by better modes would result in more reliable links between stations involved, improving the use of the designated spectrum. Resolution The IARU region 1 band plan should not specify any special segments for packet radio anymore. IARU member societies should encourage their members to abandon packet radio (AX25 standard with 300 Baud, 200 Hz shift) operation on HF. DV05_C4_14 DARC Packet radio on HF 1 http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
First I want to say.. our Prayers or with those in the south that lost their lives and loved ones and with the survivors of those who lost their lives in hopes they can somehow put together something of what they had and work towards fulfillment of their dreams. Which was severely interrupted by the Hurricane that swept through that region.
I can only say... Not having TV since the 20th of August (lightening Strike and SLOOOW insurance company) has spared me much of the media hyp of the catastrophe... I still stop quite often throughout the day and just want to cry for those who are suffering and continue to suffer this great hardship... Makes one realise just how little we actually have to complain about..
Saw this on our Packet Net.. See **** BELOW>>> Sure was easy to get over HF PACKET.. Not sure where they get their ideas.. But let me tell you a story.. most of you are familiar.
on 8-20-05 our home was hit with lightening, actually it was a direct hit on my 10 meter antennas.. We were all knocked on our butts and we very set back by the experience.. I found after making sure all of us were ok... That Amongst a lot of other damaged devices.. That Most of my HF BBS which I host here at my home (W9OTR and N9LYA ) were virtually blown away... However, due to the low costs involved by the ability to use low end PCs and just about any HF rig and the fact that TNC's are a dime a dozen.. I was able to get 3 out of 5 HF ports back in operation the same day, in fact within an hour the first one was back on line the second within 3 hours. . The Third before night fall, and 4th took a bit longer and VHF was up and down over the next few days.. Today 9-2-05 the station is 100% again.. however I consolidated W9OTR and N9LYA into one BBS. for now. It has 4 HF 2 VHF and 1 UHF ports all originally built on the low end of the cost equation. And all replaced out of spare parts that I had on hand and had accumulated on the used markets mostly via eBay.. Except for one radio my Icom2100H which I bought new on EBay at an extreme discount. I personally fund all radio activity here at home for the HARDS group.. and we work together to help one another out.. I had many offers of equipment form those in our grup that I am convinced that even with 100% loss I could have been back on line as fast as equipemnt could have been delivered. I was not the first in our group to take a lightening hit.. WB3DTG took a big hit a week or two before me and had his staion partially back on air within days/ I am now forwarding with him on two ports again.. Not sure of his status today, as far as anything new.. But he is coming in here real well on HF. And is actively masking repairs. I reaallyu doubt too many would have the funds to replace P4 boxes and SCS Pactor III Modems prior to an insurance payout. Thus why I only use low end equipment that works great with Packet and allows me to share messages and traffic with those who run Packet/Pactor systems like wb3dtg.
Do not get me wrong... I have and plan to continue to experiement with the faters modes.. But my system will always be based on HF Packet ....Read on.
I challenge anyone to take a modern high speed data system and expand it into a multiported HF BBS (message handling system) which must be run on high end PC's with Highend HF gear. As well as a lot of the proprietary modes that require high priced Controllers ... To build and sustain a system for years. And then suffer a third of the damage I suffered and rebuild it without taking out a mortgage on your home... I spent all of $200 to get back to 100% And was at 80% same day within hours of strike.. even though the wife and I had both been hit by the EMP of the lightening.. This would have rendered most system off air for the wait for Insurance and new parts to be ordered and delivered.. Not so with Packet.. it is viable and can be had by most hams on a budget... To Ban HF Packet one might as well BAN CW.. It won't happen.. It can't happen.. Or the Systems in place will be too fragile at best..
I am not saying the New modes are not good most are... PSK31 Q15X25 Pactor I Are all good..
These augment our national and worldwide network infrastructure...But they cannot and will never replace Packet without cutting out a majority of Hams who operate their stations for personal as well as Volunteer reasons for emcomms and the general communications of hams on their OWN worldwide network.. As they will be under budget to setup and maintain a system that can be both robust and efficient as well as easily replaced within hours...
I believe the IARU Region I DV05-C4-14 author is not knowledgeable in this area and has no clue what packet can and does do .... I invite him to please consider talking with us and letting us explain and by example show him that Packet Radio is the Root means of the worldwide HF Digital Network. And without it the Ham Community will be seriously cutting back on its resources...
Let us explain and show why his statements about propagation and QRM are false and those opinions of the misinformed. Packet radio has been and always ignored by the ARRL as well and all their marbles were put in to the TOR modes.. For the ARRL to only end up with not... And yet the Packet Network has suffered but yet sustained itself by those hams who dedicate themselves to building and maintaining the Worldwide Network.
Example.. Our system today and prior to and during the Hurricane that Hit the Gulf Coast were directly linked to a number of Packet Stations at Emergency Locations.. Example is New Orleans W5OEP Station in the New Orleans Emergency Radio Club Stationed at their Emergency Shelter.. With Beams and other types of antennas on the roof of several tall buildings, and Battery Backups.. The stations have run throughout the emergency linked to our Packet Network via several bands and frequencies. This is due to the inherent low costs of such systems.. take the typical Winlink PMBO.. Avg $5000. For radios proprietary controllers, software Internet connections etc... we can do the same with packet for considerably less.. Lets see.. no internet needed, HAMS use Radios. A ts 520 can be had for $100 on eBay xtled for $20 and an homemade inverted V can be made for less tem $40 a KAM TNC Used at EBay for $75 and a PC IBM XT class or better FREE MSYS Software and you have an HF Packet Station... It can had additional equipment for multiport Multi BBS system and national hubs.. Or you can just have a casual user station... I do not see the logic in cutting ones head off in spite of their face.. If you do not like Packet you do not have to use it..If you strictly want to use a Faster Newer mode and have the funds to do so .. Fine.. Add a Packet port and work with us not against us... There are times here when with my many HF ports messages are being sent in and out at a high rate of speed... Over several bands as the bands are open and closed at differing times of day... I offered this same scenario to the Winlink2K Group... Work with us not against us... Only to be ridiculed.. I see it as their lack of knowledge of the digital arts ... And just a wanton act of conspiracy to kill any direct competition... Money flying between someones hands. They know packet is a great competitor and with the advent of the faster modes ran by those who have the funds to augment their packet systems or those who have no desire to run packet but will link with those that do.. We can make the HAM RADIO Digital Network a great thing.. Far superior to any single mode or modes.. Think of Packet Networking as a low and high cost system... Fully compatable within and of itself.. It can be fully isolated from teh WIREline.. Wheich is where everyone seems to be headed.. Let me ask a question.. Any phones or wired modes working in New Orleans LA..
Now I see why the CW ops are saying the removal of CW as a requirement will mean the death of CW.. It is all too easy to kill something... Man is a great destroyer.. What we need here is cooperation, Creativeness and a new level of invention... The problems with packet in the 80's and 90's were that everyone wanted speed and more speed.. they wanted the Internet type things... But did not want to spend the money on equipment to go faster VIA RADIO... Why would they want to spend that Money now.. When they have all THEY want on the internet... That is all fine and good for them.. If they want to chat live with uncle Bill or aunt gracie via VOiP thats ok.. If they want to talk to an other HAM on VOiP thats their business, As long as it does not replace Ham RADIO... What I propose is we finally do what I envisioned in the 90's.... Enhance packet radio with faster modes... For those with the financial means make it happen. For those on a budget work with what you can.. Compatability is the KEY. Compatability does not mean it must be SLOW... Those who make the faster modes work can work on way to cut costs... Experiment with faster packet, on HF. Continue working on soundcards BBS Software,.. Experiment with BBS Software that will allow Pactor Packet a form of Q15X25 being worked with now by my good friend N5PVL on 18 MHz.. I will let him add what this does for HF Throughput... We are breaking new ground with faster modes.. But they are all compatible with Packet AX25 on HF... Unlike the expensive WINLINK2000 which is not.
As far as the comments about better immunity against propagation problems and co-channel QRM... That is simply not that big a problem.. Multi HF Ports help Proagation. Yes QRM is but by far mostly Pactor Robots tend to not listen first and destroys a packet link out right.... Packet uses carrier sensing. to know when a channel is in use.. Pactor only senses Pactor..
See www.USPacket.Org the only truly almost live updated Packet information Website. Look around and enjoy.
I urge all HAMS and others in our group to please add to my statements, all facts that will show or substantiate our claims or their claims.. I believe you will see.. The truth..
Let us get off our butts and quit trying to KILL HAM RADIO and work together for a change to make it the Greatest thing since sliced Bread.
Our prayers are witth our fellow HAMS and brothers and sisters who are in the Hurricane Ravaged areas.. And that they get their lives back to some form of reason as soon as possible.
73 Jerry Kutche N9LYA
Trustee HARDS Hoosier Amateur Radio Digital Society W9OTR "We make Ham radio Easy" Dedicated to the preservation and enhansement of the Worldwide Digital Network.
ARRL Net Manger Indiana Section
Net Manager ARRL Skipnets NET 40E and NET147E
MSYS BBS Sysop of W9OTR/W9BBS/K9BBS/N9LYA Full Service Packet Radio BBS and Midwest US Packet Forwarding HUB.
Director USPacket.Net
Member SPAR www.spar-ham.org
Member TAPR
Member ISCET
Memeber ARRL
Member ARES
www.w9otr.org
www.n9lya.com
www.USPacket.Org
************************************************** **********
International Amateur Radio Union Region 1 Europe, Middle East, Africa and Northern Asia Founded 1950 General Conference, Davos, 11 to 16 September 2005 SUBJECT Abandonment of Packet Radio on HF (AX25 standard with 300 Baud, 200 Hz shift) Society DARC Country: Germany Committee: C4 Paper number: 14 Contact: Ulrich Mueller, DK4VW e-mail: dk4vw@darc.de Introduction This paper recommends to discontinue the operation of packet radio mailboxes and gateways on HF and explains why. Background Although packet radio mode made it possible in the eighties to run new things like mailboxes, gateways etc., packet radio never was an adequate mode for the existing conditions on HF bands. Problems with packet radio mode were learned by practice and proofed by closer theoretical studies. Later other modes have been developed (first AMTOR, then PACTOR, PSK31, MT63, just to mention some) which could handle e.g. messages exchange with better immunity against propagation problems, co-channel QRM etc. all of them show a better data throughput. Keypoints Replacing packet radio by better modes would result in more reliable links between stations involved, improving the use of the designated spectrum. Resolution The IARU region 1 band plan should not specify any special segments for packet radio anymore. IARU member societies should encourage their members to abandon packet radio (AX25 standard with 300 Baud, 200 Hz shift) operation on HF. DV05_C4_14 DARC Packet radio on HF 1 http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif