ARRL take note:

[N5PVL]

It is amazing how many unpopular ideas and actions have been associated with the ARRL in recent years.

Some readers here may be familiar with a series of no-discussion polls I have started here on QRZ, with the comment included being...

ARRL take note:

The idea behind these polls being presented without discussion is that then the votes of participating amateurs stand out, without participants being distracted or unduly influenced by other ham's arguements. There is no mechanism where the one who shouts the loudest gets his way.

If anyone wants to discuss the issues, well they are already on QRZ so they can ( and do! ) start up a seperate topic in order to do so. - But it won't be right in the face of amateurs participating in the poll.

If you are pretty certain that something the ARRL promotes is contrary to the desires of most amateurs, you can get a good idea as to whether this is true by running this type of poll.

While QRZ is not visited by every amateur, it is also true that QRZ.Com is second only to the ARRL website in popularity among amateurs who access the Internet.

I would submit that the results of these no-dicussion QRZ polls provide a more accurate picture of what most hams think than any system the ARRL has at its disposal.

The ARRL has polls too, but they are not given the same exposure that a poll here will tend to have, especially among the great majority of US hams who are not ARRL members. - You know... The ones that ARRL repeatedly claims to represent when they deal with Congress, the FCC, and other government agencies?

By keeping the poll questions simple and to the point, and by not allowing discussion ( right there with the poll at any rate ) these polls can give us an idea of what most hams here really think, as opposed to what promoters and apologists for various dubious ideas at ARRL tell us we think. - And so try to tell us TO think.

20 kHz multimedia on HF bands (http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=100398;hl=n5pvl) - Smart or Stupid?

The ARRL should encourage the use of: (http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=98049;hl=n5pvl) - Amateur Radio or the Internet?

The ARRL Staff should promote: (http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=96604;hl=n5pvl) - Amateur Radio or the Internet?

To deal with competition from the Internet: (http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=85033;hl=n5pvl) - Put our Ham Communications on the Internet, or Continue to Advance and Develop Our Use of Radio?

These polls cover issues where I believed that the alleged thinking at ARRL was in total disconnect from the actual desires of the amateurs ARRL claims to represent.

If you look at the results of these particular polls, I think you will find that they bear that belief out.

The "Let's bend over for the ARRL" crowd will not like this, but the fact remains that the ARRL does attempt to push quite a few unpopular and clueless ideas that the great majority of the amateurs they claim to represent do not want.

These polls point out those areas where the ARRL is off-base - or they show where the ARRL is right on the money.

These ARRL take note: polls were taken on issues where the ARRL pushes ideas and policies that I doubted most hams really agree with. - If you have noted that the ARRL appears to be way out in foo-foo land on some particular subject, why not set up a no-discussion ARRL take note: poll of your own here at QRZ and find out?

Should the ARRL pay attention to such polls? - I will submit here that they had better - if they know what is good for them.

Amateurs should not hesitate to quote the results of these QRZ polls when contacting representatives of the ARRL, FCC, or congress about important issues. - In many cases, they are the best defense we have against those who would claim to represent us while advancing bogus policies.

P.S. # - #Stop by sometime at HamPoll.Com (http://www.hampoll.com), where a dedicated, long-term polling station has been set up for use by US amateurs. - HamPoll is just getting started, and the more participants there the better. Stop by and register YOUR vote, enjoy reading the results we have so far, and/or participate in creating new polls to be published there.

[N5PVL]

W7DJM (http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=100465) take note:

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[W7DJM]

Even greater stupidity by someone who should have something better to do---especially right now.

First, ANY of these so called polls of yours don't prove a thing---there is no reason to believe that:

anyone is showing their true feelings

that the poll votes are cast by anyone who knows or cares anything about the issue

that the poll voters themselves are a true cross section of anyone meaningful

that the poll voters didn't stuff the box

on, on and on. No reliability, no conclusion, no factual basis. Just piddle, mouth dribble, and keyboard drool.

I don't necessarily disagree with all you say, but you go about it in such a zealous way that there's no way in HELL that I could ever support ANYTHING that you purport to stand for--you obviously are so adamantly against ARRL that you just can't see straight.

Just who IS your hero, Wayne Greene?


Is there some perverted, obtuse, incredibly complicated reason that you cannot simply start a thread, state your position---in clear, concise terms, and leave it at that?


No, you have to start a poll to which there is no start, and no finish, no discussion, and you want, what was that again?

"Someone" to "take note?"

??TAKE NOTE OF WHAT??


And, once again, a reminder: don't be a sendin' me any more of your handy little emails, because REGARDLESS of the language, the name calling, or whatever else, they will all get posted right back here.

[N5PVL]

I wonder if ARRL trolls understand how they serve to undermine this fine old outfit, so badly in need of an organizational enema?

[W8LBO]

Morning,
You guys might as well not get all bent out of shape about this. #It's kinda like whether wood or plastic is better for the Marine Band harmonica http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Some like wood, some like plastic, others prefer the Lee Oskars. #It's nothing to make an enemy over. #
Have a great day,
Timothy
BTW, I know it's really hard to turn around from somebody who throws a punch, but if one of the blokes throws a blow about something like this, it would probably be advisable to just skip devoting enough time to him to get angry.

[N5LRZ]

@N5PVL

Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that the ARRL Governing Board is ELECTED by those amateurs who are the MEMBERS of the organization. Represenatives are broken down into into regions with each region having its own represenative voted into 'office' by the membership of that particular district with the majority determining which person will represent their particular district. Voting is done NOT on a per policy basis but rather on a single individual who will represent his district for a certain period of time after which he can run for reelection if he/she wishes to do so.

IF I remember correctly, the voting process for each district is patterned like the US Congress with not all the board members up for reelection at the same time--elections are rotated.

So if you do not like a policy that this 'Private' organization has just join, and vote. If you are of a minority mind then at least you can say I voted against the man.

OHHHH and by the way...

Membership has its privledges. In addition to getting a pretty good magazine (QST) filled with product reviews, articles and regular features, you get the ability to access certain valuable other features as well. They also have a very nice insurance program to insure your equipment AND (one I recently used) if you are a member their VEC will update and or renew your license FREE of charge. NOT a member? The VEC will update/renew your license but there will be a $14 fee to do so.

Topic Direction....

In your post you stated that the ARRL is pushing the Internet. Know that I am of the vacume tube era. BUT the fact is that there are not one but several applications that are getting very very popular all of which involve the use of the Internet to relay or convey voice between two amateur stations for rebroadcast. This is a fact that the ARRL, I believe, recognizes as a fact that will NOT go away. New Amateurs 'demand' new modes. They and I know that IF IF IF we are going to merely break even on the number of active amateurs we are going to have to abandon the ways of the past and embrace the modern world.

Example: It used to be that an Amateur Operator accessing a phone patch via his big brick handi was enough to make an outsider say ooooooh and ahhhhhh. Today they laugh at you if you would do that as they whipped out their digi cell phone and send a TEXT message or a digi Picture of you so their friends can laugh along with them.

Example: my good bud has a little boy just turning 4. In only 3 full years of life he already knows how to play kids video games on a computer and not screw up the computer. He even knows how to turn it on and that if you click on a certain picture the game starts. He has not quite figured how to turn the game off yet but he will get there. Do you honestly believe that if this child becomes a Ham he is going to settle for a 'Antiquated SSB/FM'. I think not.

Lastly I find that most people who moan and groan about the ARRL do so because the FCC does someting that the groaners do not approve of believeing (I Imagine) that the FCC and the ARRL are the same and that the FCC exists for the sole purpose to serve us. Both could not be farther from the truth. They are not one and the same. And while the ARRL is the premiere represenative, the ARRL can only propose to the FCC just like any other contributing agency of which there are many. And our influence is even more eroded by the actions of the KMAN and that clown in California. The ultimate decision lies out of our hands, out of the hands of the ARRL and in the hands of the FCC who in most cases I have found have already made up their minds even before the ask for comments. We have to fact the very definate FACT: In Washington DC where all the big decisions are made there is one prevailing rule, money talks and begging walks.

We are going to have to start putting big bucks where our heart lies to merely survive. We are going to have to put together a lobby group that will wine and dine the decision makers just like the big dogs. IF IF IF we do not the our future will look line New Orleans AFTER the storm.

[N5PVL]

Looks like LRZ doesn't see any particular reason why the ARRL would want to pursue policies that the US ham population agrees with or would condone.

Personally, I do not care who gets elected into the ARRL BoD as long as they do thier job right. - And poll results so far do indicate that this is not happening.

Personal agendas are obviously taking precidence over the needs and desires of the amateurs these people are allegedly there to 'represent'.

Nobody who wants to see a future for the ARRL would be tolerant of that kind of hankie-pankie, which is why ARRL trolls are so bad for the organization they claim to 'defend'.

When you turn on the light and cockroaches go scurrying for cover, what this tells you is that you've got a dirty kitchen and it is time to clean up, set things to right again.

[K0RGR]

You know, there's a screaming need right now for that "Radio Mirror" technology you were advocating some time back. With a little development, and the backing of a real organization like the ARRL, I think it could become a reality, and might be out there helping to save lives in a situation like the one your nearby neighbors to the East find themselves today. In fact, I think that Katrina has done a couple of your arguments a real big favor. I note with dismay that there appear to be zero WINLINK gateways operating anywhere in the disaster area. There is only one in any of the affected states! That does not mean that there are no WINLINK stations there, but it is not a good sign for WINLINK fans, either.

If you'd devote the time you spend attacking the League to building a project like Radio Mirror instead, you'd possibly a) help create something of great value that actually supports some of your positions, and b) builds some credibility.

Why do you need the League? Maybe you don't, but an article in QST gives you instant recognition, and brings you resources you won't get otherwise. What would it take to get the League to sponsor a program to build simple receivers for Radio Mirror, to have them available for rapid deployment in disasters like Katrina?

Peeing into the wind on a daily basis does nothing whatsoever to improve the atmosphere in your vicinty or anyplace else.

[N5PVL]

K0RGR says:
Quote[/b] ]
If you'd devote the time you spend attacking the League to building a project like Radio Mirror instead, you'd possibly a) help create something of great value that actually supports some of your positions, and b) builds some credibility.


I tried the ARRL BoD last year, and the proposal was declined.

The multicast stuff is being developed but not by me, and not by the ARRL. W5ALT of SPAR has been developing the software and protocol.

You can read about some of the specs in the new SPAR newsletter, Roundtable that came out a few days ago. The PDF file is here. (http://www.spar-hams.org/spar-roundtable.php)

The Society for the Preservation of Amateur Radio (http://www.spar-hams.org/index.php) is a non-partisan group of concerned amateur radio operators working together to ensure the vitality of the Amateur Radio Service by promoting technical abilities among Amateur Radio Operators.

I am proud to be a member of SPAR.

[w8znx]

Hello 5pvl

" if you know what's good for you "

sure sounds like a threat

qrz polls won't change one thing

League does not base their
decisions on qrz polls

lines like " if you know what's good for you "

sure won't bring any one
over to your point of view

yours truly
Mac

[W8LBO]

znx, I think the post you are talking about was: "Should the ARRL pay attention to such polls? - I will submit here that they had better - if they know what is good for them." I think he was just meaning membership would go down. He could have meant something bigger, but I doubt it.

[N5PVL]

You hit the nail on the head, W8LBO.

If the ARRL brass continues to pursue personal agendas that amateurs do not want, we will be lucky if they don't take the #organization down with them.

They are already hurting the ARRL, it's just a question of how much damage they will do before they are voted out or get thier acts together.

[w5alt]

The ARRL should be a great organization and I truly wish it would live up to its potential. A few minor changes and they would likely find widespread support, instead of 20% (and dropping) of US hams. The biggest of the changes would be to actually listen to members - and other hams, too - and show evidence of that.

Take a look at any of the other ham magazines. They actively solicit readers opinions - and report on the results, even though sometimes the results are surprising. Have you ever seen such from the ARRL? The closest thing I've seen was their asking for input on the "bandwidth proposal," but they never made the results known in any real fashion.

In my business I make it a point to talk to my clients regularly and find out what they think - good or bad - about my work. And I'm darn sure glad I've done that, since they have pointed out places where I needed to improve - and I did. I also make it a point to interview every potential client when I don't win a contract - that's even more important. Sometimes it was things beyond my control, but other times I ended up winning the next contract because I knew what they needed and what they were looking for and evaluating.

Another case in point. I make donations to various groups every year. Last year I donated to 2 scholarship funds and the Visiting Nurses Association in cash, and direct non-cash contributions for the benefit of engineering students in about a dozen universities worldwide.

I recently again got a request for a donation from the ARRL. I again asked for a rather simple thing, that I require of all my potential recipients: Give me a brief accounting of expenses and donations so I can ensure that my donation is being used as it is intended and not being spent on other things. Most of the groups respond quickly, many even send that information without it being asked for.

So far the ARRL hasn't even bothered to acknowledge they received my request. I wonder if the lack of response is due to them not knowing or whether it's not worth their time or whether they actually don't want me to know.

Do you think I will donate to them without that information? Dream on.

Perhaps some of us come across as anti-ARRL. I assure you I am not anti-ARRL, but I certainly can say with no qualms that the current leadership and direction that ARRL is taking does not represent my personal values.

Can that change? You bet - if they start correcting their attitude problem. I don't care whether they always agree with me or not - all they have to do is ask for input, acknowledge it and show the results, and explain their decisions with real information, you know, the kind with numbers and data and facts that Mr. Haynie asked for once.

73,
Walt, W5ALT

[n2nh]

<span style='color:darkorange'><span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'>DING!</span></span> http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[K0RGR]

As I said elsewhere, sorry, Charles, I didn't know you were pursuing the Radio Mirror idea. I've kicked in my two cents elsewhere. I really think it's a unique idea with real potential to provide a service that is completely absent today. If I can help develop it, let me know. QST devotes lots of space to my good friend N6TX, the Director of SETI - I think they can at least devote some to attempts to use radio to relieve human suffering. I'll postpone my article on Earthquake Predicction so they don't think I'm entirely crazy.

They don't always agree with me, but I always believe they heard what I had to say, even when they respond with "... THAT's CRAZY!".

Damn - that guy is tuning up on 3873 again.

[w8znx]

Quote[/b] (W8LBO @ Sep. 01 2005,14:46)]znx, I think the post you are talking about was: "Should the ARRL pay attention to such polls? - I will submit here that they had better - if they know what is good for them."
Hello Gang

you think the League
is going to pay any mind
to these qrz polls

one poll total of 44 votes
other poll total of 116 votes
next poll total of 30 votes

no organization is going to pay attention
such polls

what ever the League does
or does not do
its going to po people

cw ops, am ops, machine ops,
no code ops, save the code test ops,
hifi ssb ops, contesters, contest haters,

same people that are now worried about
dumming down of amateur radio

were beside them selves with rage
when incentive licencing came along

sry boys i have no bitch with the league
yes do not always agree with
the league position on some subject

which is the same as what happens
at my sailing club
and im a committee chairman

found those that
do the least amout of work
in a club are the ones
that do the most bitching

the people that do the most work
get the most complaints

Mac

[N5PVL]

Oh, boy! A Double-dipped ARRL Troll. #- I suppose that mean that "Mac" is twice as determined to see the ARRL drown in its own waste products as the other ARRL trolls.

[w8znx]

hello 5pvl

what's your beef with my statements

calling people, that do not agree with you
silly, stupid, or double dipped trolls

is sure fire way to win friends
and influence others

ops have known me
last 40 years
will find it amusing
that somebody has called me
a double dipped league troll

yours truly
Mac
home of the happy happy kim chee pot

[W8LBO]

"home of the happy happy kim chee pot" Are you talking about the Korean cabbage stuff? I haven't had that in ages, but it was really good stuff last time. No joke, it was great, until somebody spilled it and made the room smell for the next while.
73,
Tim

[KA4DPO]

I have always been a league member and still am. I do however, agree with Walt, WA5ALT that the ARRL can do better. I would like to see the leadership take more interest in what the general membership thinks about issues facing the hobby. Too often I sense that these decisions are being made in a vacuum without regard for the communities concerns.

I do support the ARRL because I firmly believe it is a necessary organization. I can't envision any other way to maintain dialog with the FCC and provide coordinated legal services for amateur radio without the league.

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (KA4DPO @ Sep. 02 2005,10:00)]I have always been a league member and still am. #I do however, agree with Walt, WA5ALT that the ARRL can do better. #I would like to see the leadership take more interest in what the general membership thinks about issues facing the hobby. #Too often I sense that these decisions are being made in a vacuum without regard for the communities concerns. #

I do support the ARRL because I firmly believe it is a necessary organization. #I can't envision any other way #to maintain dialog with the FCC and provide coordinated legal services for amateur radio without the league.
Excellent points and a mature attitude. It is better to keep insisting that the members of the BoD respond than it is to quit and complain.

The only problem, however, is that each of us has a natural and normal tendency to believe that any conviction that we hold dearly is one, surely, that must be shared universally among all other amateurs. That may not always be the case.

It is very difficult to gain any sort of objective view of what is being done in Newington and why. And this difficulty feeds the frustration that many feel. It is imperative that each of us join the League and maintain close and continuing contact with our Directors and with the Section Managers so that there will be no doubt as to the consensus that they should acknowledge.

One thing is for certain: the squeaky wheel with get greased once or twice, but the chronic whiner and complainer will only be ignored, no matter how important he or she may feel a comment to be.

Instead of "ARRL take note," perhaps it should read: "N5PVL take note."

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[KD6NIG]

PVL: Honestly, if you want the ARRL to change, you'll probably have to get elected to one of the boards or something.

Otherwise, I don't really see them doing anything much different than they are doing now. They have been doing what they have been doing for how long now?

Oh, and I'm a member, and I make my feelings known to my SM, but like my congressman, I assume they are either filed or round filed. Either that, or what I think is in the minority and thus not pushed along. But I remain a member. Why? Because if the ARRL goes away, then I could definetely see Amateur Radio being tossed on the scrap heap of the FCC. At least they make enough noise to let the FCC know that we're still here, and we'd be mighty pissed if they did that. I like QST also.

Its just like where I work though, I've suggested changes to streamline stuff and make things more efficent, but they like things ran the way they are. Sure I log things into a computer AND onto a paper log still, but hey, thats how they want it done, so I just keep doing it. Same with the ARRL. Until the formula they are using gets so bad (ie, membership falls so far they are having issues paying people) why change the process?

Actually what the ARRL needs really is competition, but with orgs like Mr. Baxters being the other alternative, they do hold a monopoly. Allowing removal of code to go through, and the modes you mention to go through will probably mean a few more members joining up.

Win-Win for them. You may cancel and others may too, but they probably see a net gain, thus the direction they are taking now will continue.

[W0MT]

First point, THIS IS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO TURN THIS INTO A CW/no-CW THREAD.

Second point, most of the posts on QRZ that I have read say that the NPRM to eliminate CW as a testing requirement is wrong, bad idea, end of Ham radio, etc.

Third point, I have read many (but not all) of the comments submitted to the FCC about this NPRM. In my opinion, most of the comments recommend the elimination of CW testing.

Now while neither of these are statistically valid polls, it just points out the fact that because some or a lot of people express their opinion on some subject in some forum, it does mean that their opinion has become what the majority of Hams want.

I personally feel that many of the very strong opinions I see expressed by posters on forums such as QRZ do NOT represent the opinion of the majority of Hams that I have contact with.

Just my $.02.

[n9vo]

Quote[/b] ]Charles Brabham, N5PVL

Director: USPacket http://www.uspacket.org
Admin: HamBlog http://www.hamblog.com
HamPoll http://www.hampoll.com
DigiBlog http://www.uspacket.org/digiblog/



Just curious why each and every post has to repeat all this information. No offense meant but man you have too much time on your hands with all the polls you start.

[N5PVL]

N9VO:

It's called a "signature"...

If you look at the top of the page here at QRZ, you will see a link called "Your Profile".

Go in there and dig around, and you'll find the place to set up a signature for yourself. - I think KD5OWO has one of the most interesting signatures here... Mine just lists a few web-sites I am associated with.

The polls I have at QRZ took about five minutes apiece to set up. - QRZ polls are really not any more time-consuming to make that a regular post. Try it out and you'll see what I mean. There is really nothing difficult or time-consuming about setting up a poll here.

The polls often start to slide down and off to the second page, but guys who do not like the results tend to put in thier votes, which puts the polls right back up to the top of the list again - where several other hams with more sense see them and vote too... The end result is that the poll results ( percentage-wise ) do not change much if any, but there are then several more voters who have participated.

It tends to lend more validity to the polls without really effecting the outcome, and who wouldn't get a giggle out of that? # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif