D-STAR - The Most Exciting New Mode

[VE7TKO]

D-STAR is probably the greatest advancement ever seen in ham radio to date. D-STAR stands for "Digital Smart Technologies for Amateur Radio". The system has been developed in collaboration with JARL (Japan Amateur Radio League) and is supported by the Japanese Telecommunications Administration. <span style='color:red'>The protocol is owned by the JARL and not by a single manufacturer. This makes it an open protocol that any manufacturer can use.</span>

The very first company to have radios available with the D-STAR protocol is Icom. The first radio that I bought, in May of 2005, was the Icom IC-V82. This is an entry level HT with the ability to have an optional "UT-118" D-STAR board added to it. Unfortunately I could only afford one radio at the time, and I was hoping to find someone else in my area to experiment with.

To use the radio in digital mode, you must first do the call sign programming. Your call sign is programmed into "MYC" and is displayed on all other radios (except for the IC-2200H) that receive your signal. The call sign of the station that you are calling must be programmed into "YUC". Entering "CQCQCQ" in the place of a call sign will make your radio act like a conventional radio to local traffic. You will be able to speak to anybody else who has his radio set up the same way.

Entering the call sign of a person that you wish to talk to, in to "YUC" will make it like a call sign squelch. You would only hear from the call sign that you have your radio set to. This feature can be handy when you leave your base, and the rest of the family does not want to listen to all the chatter on the frequency. This feature is applicable to both simplex and D-STAR repeater use. This does not make it a private frequency. All other D-STAR equipped radios can hear what is being said. Your base station can hear only your mobile, and your mobile can still hear all calls as long as your mobile is set to "CQCQCQ".

Things get really interesting as D-STAR repeaters become more common. If the repeater is connected into an Internet gateway, every time that you use that repeater, your location is automatically recorded on that gateway. Any other D-Star radio on any other D-Star repeater equipped with an internet gateway, will be able to contact you through "call sign to call sign" calling. The system will automatically track you, regardless of where in the world you are. The call will be automatically routed to the repeater on which you are presently active. You can operate on both voice and data mode at the same time.

<span style='color:red'>D-STAR only defines how the signal is handled going into the box or coming out of the box.</span> It is up to each individual radio manufacturer to decide what features they wish to implement. The Icom <span style='color:blue'>"ID-800H"</span> has both Digital Voice and 950 bps data capabilities and operates on the 2-meter and 70-cm bands. It can also send GPS coordination data, in "NMEA 0183" format, if an external GPS receiver is connected. There is no TNC required for this. Supported data formats are GLL, GGA, RMC, GSA and VTG sentences. A computer, with map plotting software can be connected to the base station, thus showing the location of your mobile. This can be accomplished on the same frequency that you use for voice communications. Handy if you wish to have only one radio with one antenna on your car.

All the capabilities of D-STAR can only be learned as new applications are developed. <span style='color:red'>Because D-STAR is an open protocol, it is not limited to the thinking of only one manufacturer.</span> As other radio manufactures play catch-up, you will see the standard become more enabled as they design in more applications to compete for your dollar. This will only happen as long as hams like you and me buy the D-Star enabled equipment that is currently available. The loss of sales by other manufactures that do not get involve in D-STAR, will force them to support the standard if they wish to keep their share of the ham radio pie.

If you ever travel in the Abbotsford, BC area, give VE7TKO a call at "D-STAR DV on 145.600 MHz". The same holds true if you fly into "YXX" Abbotsford Airport. I live only a few km north of there.

[n2ixa]

D-star is a joke ... its not compatible with any thing other then D-star. APCO25 is the only way to go.

BOB

[K8AG]

Don't know what it buys me but it sounds too much like work to me.

[N2NKW]

Quote[/b] (n2ixa @ Aug. 29 2005,13:20)]D-star is a joke ... its not compatible with any thing other then D-star. APCO25 is the only way to go.

BOB
It's brand new. Give it some time before you condemn it.

[n2ixa]

As I said, its not compatible with any thing but Icom's D-star so what good is it if you have a Motorola or Alinco and so on .
APCO25 is an open code.

Bob

[W9GRN]

D-STAR has been around for a few years,so it's hardly new.The problem is that radio manufactures need to standardize their radio specs so that they are compatible with each other. Kind of a waste of money right now until they get that issue resolved.

[K2WH]

D-Star. #Just another wannabee with a fancy name borrowed from Cadillac's On Star.

WHAT IS APCO 25?

The final documents establishing the APCO 25 Standard were approved and signed in August 1995 at the APCO International Conference and Exposition in Detroit, Michigan.

APCO 25 brings together representatives from many local, state and federal government agencies who evaluate basic technologies in advanced land mobile radio. The objective is to find solutions that best serve the needs of the public safety marketplace. In addition, the committee has encouraged the participation of numerous international public safety organizations, making this a truly worldwide recommended standard-setting initiative.

Specifically, APCO 25 is co-chaired by APCO International and the National Association of State Telecommunications Directors (NASTD). The steering committee, which makes the decisions, consists of APCO International and NASTD representatives, along with federal representatives from the National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA), National Communications System (NCS), and the Department of Defense (DoD). The steering committee is supported by several subcommittees that research specialized areas.

Ten (10) years since and no one really has heard of this either. #APCO another wannabe. #All the buzz words are there. #

"Find Solutions" - Means they don't know where it fits.

And the mention of the military and government agencies is supposed to give it some merit - NOT!

This is on the same fast track as BPL. #Another standard, another group another commitee and another failure.

K2WH

[n2ixa]

WOW Bill not bad.

Bob

[n4tia]

Quote[/b] (n2ixa @ Aug. 28 2005,12:20)]D-star is a joke ... its not compatible with any thing other then D-star. APCO25 is the only way to go.

BOB
I have to agree and disagree... Is D-STAR a joke? I dont think so. It is fairly new and is still being worked on and developed, does it have flaws and kinks that need to be worked out, of course it does and probrably will for awhile to come. Is APCO 25 the only way to go? At the present time it seems like the most promising way of integrating communications systems. If I had big bucks to spend on another repeater and had to choose between the D-STAR format and APCO 25, hands down I would go with APCO 25 (I really like being able to choose between multiple brands of radios) Its your money and your choice, if you dont like D-STAR then dont spend your money on it, if you dont like APCO 25 then dont spend your money on it.

[W5EN]

What ever happened to the "magic of radio?" Using this exciting new communications mode sounds about as much fun as making a cell phone call. Don't get me wrong, I operate some PSK and work all day with the internet and computers. Making my radio hobby just another part of the internet does not excite me in the least. With more and more stuff being "online" and "connected" I think George Orwell's Big Brother is the Internet.
de W5EN

[KI6ABZ]

Let me get this straight: D-Star is a digital voice mode AND a squelch system? So I could have a radio with my call sign programmed in, and when someone keys up with their radio set to "KI6ABZ", my radio will only be un-squelched by their radio?

Sounds great!

But will it do channel sharing? Is there some way to know who else is talking on the channel, so you don't interfere with them? I'm thinking about the current problem with FRS radios: 3 groups all use 1 channel, but with 3 different CTCSS codes. Sure, you don't hear chatter from the other groups, but you also don't hear your OWN people if the other groups are talking. And you can't tell they're talking, because your CTCSS code is set.

And nobody presses the "Monitor" button on their FRS radio before talking. For that matter, how many of use open the squelch and hit the "Reverse" button on our radios to make sure the repeater input freq is open before keying up?


Intererstingly enough, at one of my clients' shops, where they use a common channel with CTCSS, there's a sign on the mic that says "Press MONITOR first and listen before pressing TALK". Seems like good advice.


Now for the good part of my message:

I think it's about time we have individually addressable radios! GE had a system to do that more than 20 years ago.

But GE's effort was defeated by the cell-phone makers. So now, instead of free spectrum that would roughly be the commercial/personal equivelant of the Amateur Radio Service, we have a segment of spectrum (TV 70-83) that is "Pay for use".

While I think that the cell-phone industry has immesurably helped society, it has also created yet another revenue-stream for CA (Corporate America) and money sink for us. We now brag about spending "only $50 a month" or "only $100 a month" for our cell-phones.

This is yet another indication of where the FCC is going: forget about technically superior services that BENEFIT THE PUBLIC. Instead, go for the money. I don't believe that he with the biggest pocketbook should always win, but that's certainly what is happening in both the legislature AND in the courts.

If APCO25 (nobody has said yet what it IS, just who made it) or D-Star can improve the service, then I hope this idea catches on.

Can you imagine the next step? Every repeater connected through the Internet to a central hub, and every time you key your radio, it registers your closest repeater with the hub. That would become the amateur equivelant of Nextel's PTT service.

Now THAT would be interesting.

[KC2ESD]

I thought this was about the Death Star. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
And maybe it is, for Amateur Radio.

[K0RGR]

DSTAR is an RF-based system that also happens to have some neat Internet connection features. The 1200 Mhz. mobiles that have been available for some time provide digital voice and 128K digital links. Just plug in your Ethernet cable and go. The repeaters can be linked with a 10 Ghz. digital backbone system that uses ATM protocol, ideal for mixed mode communications, voice, data, and video, with T1 thruput. Fairly impressive for ham gear. There's no reason that the ATM protocol couldn't be scaled up to support much higher speeds, as well.

How does APCO gear compare to DSTAR in terms of price? DSTAR is intended for hams - the gear is not type accepted for government or commercial use. DSTAR is not cheap at this point - probably because ICOM is the only supplier. But that will change if there is enough demand for it.

I wasn't aware of the mobile-to-mobile internet linking ability you mentioned here. Sounds like something that could be useful at times.

[K2WH]

Quote[/b] (W5EN @ Aug. 29 2005,08:32)]What ever happened to the "magic of radio?" #Using this exciting new communications mode sounds about as much fun as making a cell phone call. #Don't get me wrong, I operate some PSK and work all day with the internet and computers. #Making my radio hobby just another part of the internet does not excite me in the least. #With more and more stuff being "online" and #"connected" I think George Orwell's Big Brother is the Internet. #
de W5EN
This is the trend. #The steering of amateur radio slowly but surely intermingled with the internet until the two are indistinguishable. #Once the fabric is tightly woven, one will not be able to operate without the other.

I strongly believe this has been the long term stategy of the FCC, internet providers and other interests who want to get their hands on more spectrum space. #A great example is the FCC's deliberately incomprehensible position on communication matters such as BPL, the removal of CW, the lowering of standards etc.

For years I have been advocating "Get Back to Radio", ever since the digital modes started to appear on the bands but to no avail.

The young people coming into this hobby are as interested in merging computers and radio as we were 40 years ago building receivers and transmitters. #If you can remember your passion to build, imagine the passion of the young people to merge these 2 technologies.

The enemy is within our midst.

K2WH

[n4zou]

Quote[/b] (W9GRN @ Aug. 29 2005,11:47)]D-STAR has been around for a few years,so it's hardly new.The problem is that radio manufactures need to standardize their radio specs so that they are compatible with each other. Kind of a waste of money right now until they get that issue resolved.
The radio manufactures can't even standardize a simple microphone connector.

[W5TXR]

APCO 25 is the industry standard!

PROVEN INTEROPERABILITY

The final documents establishing the APCO 25 Standard were approved and signed in August 1995 at the APCO International Conference and Exposition in Detroit, Michigan.

At this event, Motorola Inc., Stanilite Pacific Ltd, E.F. Johnson Co., BK Radio Inc., and Transcrypt International participated in a history-making interoperability demonstration of APCO 25-compliant equipment utilizing a Stanilite base station and portables from BK Radio, Motorola, E.F. Johnson, Transcrypt International on the exhibition floor. Feedback from the thousands of attendees who examined the systems indicates that the test was an overwhelming success. Even those who doubted the concept of multi-vendor participation were impressed and convinced of the viability of APCO 25 as a voluntary standard.


THE BENEFITS OF APCO 25
Every aspect of APCO 25 is designed to benefit public safety professionals who seek a new level of performance, efficiency, capabilities, and quality in two-way radio communications. Four key objectives guided the steering committee through this open process:

provide enhanced functionality with equipment and capabilities focused on public safety needs.
improve spectrum efficiency.
ensure competition among multiple vendors through Open Systems Architecture.
allow effective, efficient, and reliable intra-agency and inter-agency communications.
By adhering to these objectives, APCO 25 makes it easier for users to make the most informed decision possible when planning to convert existing system to digital. Each vendor's system will begin on a level playing field determined by an agreed upon base line set of specifications. This allows users to more accurately compare the direct features and benefits of both entire systems and individual radio products. This will make bidding processes more competitive among prospective vendors. Plus, users have the opportunity to mix and match equipment among APCO 25-compliant suppliers since their equipment will follow all basic standards.


FEATURES OF APCO 25
6.25 kHz Bandwidth (CQPSK) Modulation
The CQPSK modulator consists of a table look-up, the two outputs of which (I and Q) are Nyquist filtered and then amplitude modulated, in phase and quadrature phase, before summing. The information bits are processed by the look-up table to yield a 5-level I signal and a 5-level Q signal. The I and Q signals are filtered with the Nyquist Raised Cosine Filter previously described. The I signal is then multiplied by the carrier and the Q signal is multiplied by the carrier after it has been delayed by 90 degrees. The modulated I and Q carriers are then summed together to yield the modulator output.

12.5kHz Bandwidth (C4FM) Modulation

The C4FM modulator consists of a Nyquist Raised Cosine Filter, cascaded with a shaping filter, cascaded with a frequency modulator.

Addressing

A very large number of radio addresses are provided, both for individual radios and talk-groups.

Aggregate Bit Rate

The aggregate bit rate is 9600 bits/s. In the case of data transmission, data packets basically consist of a header, containing overhead information, followed by data. In the case of digitized voice transmission, after the transmission of a header containing error protected overheadinformation, 2400 bits/s is devoted to periodically repeating the overheadinformation needed to allow for late entry (or the missed reception of the header).

C4FM Frequency Modulator

The deviation is +1.8 kHz for dibit 01, +0.6 kHz for dibit 00, -0.6 kHz for dibit 10, and -1.8 kHzfor dibit 11.

C4FM Nyquist Filter

The dibits of information (i.e., 4800 symbols) are filtered with a raised cosine filter which satisfies the Nyquist criterion minimizing inter-symbol interference. The group delay of the filter is flat over the pass-band for |f| < 2880 Hz. The magnitude response of the filter is approximately 1 for |f| < 1920 Hz, 0.5 + 0.5 cos (2(f/1920) for 1920 Hz < |f| < 2880 Hz, and 0 for |f| > 2880 Hz.

C4FM Shaping Filter

The shaping filter has a flat group delay over the band-pass for |f| < 2880Hz. The magnitude response of the filter for |f| < 2880 Hz is sin(pif/4800)/(pif/4800).

Data Packet Data Blocks

Confirmed Data Blocks contain a 7-bit serial number (to allow for selective transmission), 9 bits of error detection on the entire block, and 14 octets of data. Unconfirmed Data Blocks contain 12 octets of data (note: a 32-bit error detection code is appended to the end of all data packets).

Data Packet Error Correction

Header Blocks normally use a rate 1/2 trellis coder for error correction. Unconfirmed data packets normally use a rate 1/2 trellis coder, while confirmed data packets normally use a rate 3/4 trellis coder. Interleaving is applied over Data Blocks.

Data Packet Header

The Header Block used for communications between a radio and a packet data node (i.e., switch) contains 10 octets of address and control information, followed by 2 octets of error detectioncoding. Information contained in the header includes: the identity of the Service Access Point to which the data is being directed, a manufacturers identification (to allow for non-standard functions), a logical link identifier to identify the sending radio of an inbound packet to a node and the receiving radio of a packet outbound from a node, the number of blocks to follow in the packet, the number of pad octets to fill out the last block, the sequence number of the packet, and the Fragment sequence number. For packet data communications directly between two radios, essentially two 12-octet Header Blocks are used at the beginning of each packet in order to convey the necessary address and control information. The header is preceded by 48 bits of synchronization and 64 bits of network identifier (to prevent confusion between radios in different networks).

Data Packet Structure

Data messages are divided into Fragments of less than 512 octets. Fragments are, in turn, divided into Blocks of M octets, where M=12 for unconfirmed messages and M=16 for confirmed messages (except Header Blocks are 12 octets in length). Note: a Fragment, preceded by header information, is defined as a Data Packet.

Demodulator

The demodulator is capable of receiving both the C4FM and the CQPSK signals. It consists of a frequency modulation detector, followed by an Integrate and Dump Filter and then a stochastic gradient clock recovery device. The Integrate and Dump Filter has a flat group delay over the band-pass for |f| < 2880 Hz. The magnitude response of the Integrate and Dump Filter, for |f| < 2880Hz, is approximately sin (pif/4800)/(pif/4800).

Digitized Voice Coder Method

After evaluating several candidates, APCO 25 selected IMBE (Improved MultiBand Excitation)vocoder, operating at 4400 bits/s. An additional 2800 bits/s of forward error correction is added, for error correction of the digitized voice. IMBE has also been selected by INMARSAT, for use in digital voice maritime satellite communications.

Digitized Voice Frame Structure

The Header Word, transmitted at the start of every transmission, contains 120 bits of information and 528 bits of error correction. Voice Frames are 180 ms in length and pairs of Voice frames compose a 360 ms Superframe. The first of a pair of voice frames transmits, in addition to digitized voice and its error corrective coding, 72 bits of link control information, 168 bits of error corrective coding on the link control information, and 16 bits of embedded low-speed data signaling with 16 bits of error corrective coding. The second of the pair of voice frames transmits an additional 16 bits of low-speed data signaling with 16 bits of error corrective coding, 96 bits of encipherment information, and 144 bits of error protective coding on the encipherment information.

Digitized Voice Header Word

The header is preceded by 48 bits of synchronization signal and a 64-bit network identifier (to prevent confusion between radios in different networks). The 120 bits of information in the Header Word consists of 72 bits for the encipherment initialization vector, 8 bits for a manufacturer identifier, 8 bits to identify the encipherment algorithm, 16 bits to identify which encipherment key variable is being employed (in systems with multiple encipherment key variables), and 16 bits for the talkgroup address. Including error corrective coding, status symbols (22 bits) not described in this brief contribution, and preceding signaling, the header requires 82.5 ms for transmission.

Digitized Voice Encryption Information

The 96 bits of encipherment information consist of the three encipherment-related fields in the header: the 72-bit encipherment initialization vector, the 8-bit encipherment algorithm identifier, and the 16-bit encipherment key variable identifier. The encipherment information is protected by 144 bits of error corrective coding. Note: the encipherment process does not change during a transmission. The repeating of this information every 360 ms is primarily for late-entry by receiving radios.

Digitized Voice Link Control Information

As previously stated, 72 bits of link control information is contained in the first of each pair of Voice Frames. If the addressee is a talk-group, the link control information consists of 1 octet describing the type of information (e.g., talk-group type of transmission), 1 octet containing the manufacturer identifier, 1 bit indicating whether or not the transmission is of an emergency nature, 15 bits reserved for future use, 2 octets for the talk-group address, and 3 octets for the transmitting radio's identifier. If the addressee is another radio, the last 7 of the 9 octets consist of : 1 octet reserved for future use, 3 octets for the destination radio's identifier, and 3 octets for the transmitting radio's identifier. This information is protected with 168 bits of error corrective coding.

Encryption

Information required for decoding to take place (including the encoding initialization vector) is transmitted at the beginning of all transmissions, and is embedded in the signaling overhead throughout all digitized voice transmissions. This allows for the use of multiple encoding algorithms and "key variables". An adequate number of bits have been assigned to allow for even the highest (i.e., most secure) levels of encoding.

Error Protection

To provide for the maximum possible coverage (i.e., range of operation), a high degree of forward error correction and interleaving has been provided for. The mobile environment is subject to severe Rayleigh fading and the APCO 25 techniques have been designed to operate in bit error rate environments of up to 7 percent.

Flexible Modulation Method

A pair of modulation methods have been selected that utilize a common receiver. The first, which utilizes a constant-envelope 4-level Frequency Modulation (FM) variant, can utilize simple, high-efficiency amplifiers and has emissions that fit within a 12.5 kHz bandwidth. This method will be fielded in most equipment initially. The second, which utilizes a CQPSK variant with amplitude components, requires the use of highly linear or linearized amplifiers and has emissions that fit within a 6.25 kHz bandwidth. (The receiver, common to both, has a 6.25 kHz bandwidth.)

Low-Speed Data With Digitized Voice

An 88.9 bit/s low-speed data channel is provided in the digitized voice frame structure. No application is currently defined. One application under discussion is to use the low-speed data channel for the transmission of accurate geographic location information.
The APCO 25 Standards are in the process of being approved by the International Telecommunications Union (ITU).

The United States Government is in the process of accepting and approving the APCO 25 Standardsfor its agencies.

[K0HB]

Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Aug. 29 2005,13:14)]The young people coming into this hobby are as interested in merging computers and radio as we were 40 years ago building receivers and transmitters. #If you can remember your passion to build, imagine the passion of the young people to merge these 2 technologies.
Are you positing this passion as a bad thing or a good thing?

I've been a ham upwards of 50 years, and it seems to me we're about due for the next useful application to justify the precious spectrum we hold in trust. #Damned sure isn't the South Dakota slow speed CW traffic net which will earn our continuned use of 80 meters!

[ai4me]

I like to be nice.. I like to be diplomatic... I like to be courteous.. but...

How should I say this? Why is everyone whining? You complain, you moan, you groan.. and this is suppose to attract people to the HAM world? Is this suppose to entice new and young people to the world of Amateur Radio?

If HAM radio is dying, your definitly killing it. It sure isnt all these new modes of operating thats doing it. (as some may claim)

I for one find DSTAR fascinating. The fact that you can plug your laptop into the back of the radio and connect to the internet through a remote link at 128K is absolutely amazing. I think its GREAT that there is a growing use for 1.2 GHz, and the 10GHz linked repeater system that DSTAR encompasses.

APCO25?? I thought we were HAMs, not Police, Fire and EMS people. Isnt that what APCO25 was developed for? DSTAR was made for us as HAMS!

I almost didnt become a HAM because of the people on this board. Thank heavens for the GOOD local HAMs in my area that totally changed my opinion. Im now working on my Extra class thanks to wonderful local HAMs, not the Bulletin Board Bozos.

Now granted not all of you are BBB's. I thank you for your intelligent contibution to the effort. Ignore the Turkeys who post here sometimes. Dont let them get you down! I personally enjoyed reading the original poster's comments.

The promotion of Amateur Radio has no room for overinflated egos. You know who you are....

[kb2wye]

HEY, CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW !!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[kr4wm]

<Quote>The system will automatically track you, regardless of where in the world you are.</QUOTE>

Which is precisely why I DON'T want it! Can you say "Big Brother is watching you???"

-KR4WM

[W5TXR]

As I said APCO 25 is the Industry Standard.
And it's a well designed system however, D-Star was designed for a different purpose, Amateur radio.

Do the homework and compare the two.

I, personally like both.

Fundamental Plan of the D-STAR System
The D-STAR system is an off the shelf, 128K open protocol DATA system that combines the analog and digital worlds into a seamless communications network at 1.2 and 10 GHz! Just picture being in your vehicle, helping with emergency communications with the 128K DATA – you can visually communicate what is happening simply by e-mailing a photo or live video. "A picture is worth a thousand words." The power of the D-STAR system is limited only by your imagination!
Fundamental Plan of the D-STAR System


While the ID-1 transceiver is a vital part of a D-STAR system, you won’t have to wait for a new repeater to be set-up in your area. This rugged little rig operates with current analog 1.2GHz repeaters, plus simplex digital operation with another ID-1. Its operating frequency range is 1240-1300 MHz, with FM and GMSK (Digital) modulation formats. The ID-1 includes all the usual features that you expect - 105 alphanumeric memory channels, PLUS full PC control via the USB port (a black box 1.2 GHz radio!). Now for the fun part... the ID-1 supports a 10BASE-T Ethernet cable for the 128K DATA operation! Explore the benefits of wireless high-speed integrated digital connections! See your authorized Icom dealer - the future begins today!

Icom is the first manufacturer to introduce products for this innovative communication system. The ID-1, ID-RP1, and ID-RP1L are the basic building blocks for this system. The ID-RP1 and ID-RP1L, are the repeater and backbone components of the D-STAR, while the ID-1 can be configured as either a mobile radio or base station.

Features of the D-STAR System

Open protocol TCP/IP structure
Digital voice and data capability
Data 128K (130kHz Bandwidth)
Multi site capability with high speed microwave backbone 10 Mbps
ATM multiplex*
Internet interface capability
Repeaters can handle both digital and analog voice
* ATM multiplexing is on the backbone

Visit the Icom web site so learn more.

[wc4rav]

Quote[/b] (n2ixa @ Aug. 29 2005,11:20)]D-star is a joke ... its not compatible with any thing other then D-star. APCO25 is the only way to go.

BOB
maybe you're right,but.......
p25 is only compatible with p25
wich is infact imbe
d-star uses ambe which is what phase 2 p-25 calls for

so maybe you p-25 users should wait or purchase d-star maybe phase 2 p-25 will be compatible. when ever it comes out.

[K2WH]

Speaking of new protocols, please consider this one our group has been working on for the past 30 years. #We call it RSTRS-80BCL and don't throw out that tape deck.

Thats Radio Shack TRS-80 Basic Computer Language. #With this new protocol, currently in use by many dedicated Radio Shack TRS-80 users, one connects his/her radio to the tape output jack of their 4k computer. #The tape output jack is normally #used for saving programs on small cassette tapes but with our new protocol, the data is actually fed into your microphone jack (a small mic adapter is required). #At the same time, the small reed relay that would normally activate the tape recorder will actually put your radio in the transmit mode. #Neat huh? #Oh, I forgot to mention, do you have a soft spot for Black and White video? #Well we have that too.

The very first company to have radios available with the RSTRS-80BCL protocol was Wilson. The first radio that I ever bought, way back in May of 1972. #This is an entry level HT with the ability to have an optional keyboard added to it and crystal controlled as a bonus. #Stability and state of the art combined in a can't be beat package.

Anyway, a simple program (written by yours truly) will send a series of audio tones to the tape output jack. #With this audio output now connected to your radio and the reed relay in your key line, you are all set for excellent and innovative and very robust digital communications.

Our simple program can send the audio codes for the formula 1 + 1 to your mic jack. #A radio on the other end utilizing this new protocol RSTRS-80BCL, will perform the decoding sequence, process it and send back the answer which as we all know is: 2! #Think about it. #Its almost like having a keyboard located 1000's of miles away! #You do not have to hit the "2" key, the computer and radio on the other end does it for you. #Something not possible until today. #You can actually go through the entire addition sequence up to 12 #+ 12! #Imagine that! #Packet, PSK31, MFSK16 and other digital software currently in use cannot perform such simple addition. #Ours can! #They can't touch this. Want to test the propagation path? Just send the sequence 1 to 12 looking for the correct answer. Get all 12 answers correct then you know the path is good.

As a side bonus, it is possible to write code to key the tape relay on and off with the proper sequence to send excellent morse code. #Oh, did I mention, only 4,000 bytes of ram are needed to run this protocol so it is very memory efficient, not a ram hog. #A few of the many hidden benefits..

We are currently in negotiations with many organizations such as IEEE, JERKS, MADD, NETA and TRSDOS. #Other groups are waiting in the wings to join and obtain this protocol as the next step forward in the computer/radio marriage revolution. #This is truly a quantum leap in the advancement of the radio art and I am proud to bring this information into the mainstream.

If you are interested in obtaining more information about RSTRS-80BCL then please send us an email at RSTRS-80BCL @ theshack.dum.# Serious inquiries only please. #Mic adapters are available for most radios. #Tape deck and batteries not included. #Proof of license must be submitted for verification.

K2WH

[n2obm]

IMHO,

D-star.....I dunno......yet.

APCO 25 - Tested at Ft. Lewis, Washington and elsewhere (also see articles in past issues of RadioResource magazine).

Going 'digital' reduces the 'signal planning range as much as 15% compared to non-secure FM analog systems'.
READ:
The amount of signal to noise ratio required to recover the modulation format reduces usable range!

This is more crap that the radio manufacturers came up with;
they had some pencil #$@% lobbyist 'sell' it to a some politicians under the premise that 'digital' is better for Police and First Responders. Pure Bull!

Ya'll hit a nerve. I'll shut up now.

[K2WH]

FEATURES OF APCO 25

"6.25 kHz Bandwidth (CQPSK) Modulation
The CQPSK modulator consists of a table look-up, the two outputs of which (I and Q) are Nyquist filtered and then amplitude modulated, in phase and quadrature phase, before summing. The information bits are processed by the look-up table to yield a 5-level I signal and a 5-level Q signal. The I and Q signals are filtered with the Nyquist Raised Cosine Filter previously described. The I signal is then multiplied by the carrier and the Q signal is multiplied by the carrier after it has been delayed by 90 degrees. The modulated I and Q carriers are then summed together to yield the modulator output."

What? #I can't believe people actually understand this techno babble. #Where does this fit in my HT-37 Hallicrafters?

K2WH

[KI6ABZ]

Quote[/b] (kr4wm @ Aug. 29 2005,15:51)]<Quote>The system will automatically track you, regardless of where in the world you are.</QUOTE>

Which is precisely why I DON'T want it! Can you say "Big Brother is watching you???"

-KR4WM
Wht do you think happens now with your cell phone? Every time you travel from one cell to another, the phone links up with the closest tower.

That's how they found OJ.

[wc4rav]

Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Aug. 29 2005,17:27)]What? #I can't believe people actually understand this techno babble. #Where does this fit in my HT-37 Hallicrafters?

K2WH
fcc part 97.1 (b) Continuation and extension of the amateur's proven ability to contribute to the advancement of the radio art.


where does that Hallicrafters fit in with spark gap transmitters( rember those)
the service is supposed to grow and advance - not stay stagnant

[KD5FJE]

Quote[/b] (W5EN @ Aug. 29 2005,12:32)]What ever happened to the "magic of radio?" #Using this exciting new communications mode sounds about as much fun as making a cell phone call.
BINGO...nobody give a rat's behind about RADIO anymore, and unfortunately most are the very hams that should be supporting radio..ie.e. a tranceiver that sends RF to a real antenna which broadcasts through the air to be received by another antenna and decoded by a receiver. If a radio is connected to something other than an antenna, you may enjoy that, but don't call it radio because it isn;t.

[ai4me]

Im suprised your not still using a Spark Gap with that attitude towards technological advancement.

The point is, you dont HAVE to use it if you dont want to. There are so many modes of operating on HAM that there could be something for everyone.

I urge everyone to read the Dr Seuss book with the story about the Star Bellied Sneetches, because this argument about those who do one form vs. those who do other forms reminds me of that story.

In some way, shape or form, it all relates to radio.

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (KI6ABZ @ Aug. 29 2005,17:30)]Quote[/b] (kr4wm @ Aug. 29 2005,15:51)]<Quote>The system will automatically track you, regardless of where in the world you are.</QUOTE>

Which is precisely why I DON'T want it! Can you say "Big Brother is watching you???"

-KR4WM
Wht do you think happens now with your cell phone? Every time you travel from one cell to another, the phone links up with the closest tower.

That's how they found OJ.
Excellent comparison: Ham radio equals cell phone.

[W5MJL]

Quote[/b] (KI4IEY @ Aug. 29 2005,21:04)]Im suprised your not still using a Spark Gap with that attitude towards technological advancement.
I'm sure if we were using spark gap you guys would find some way to turn in into a cell phone or the internet.

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (KD5FJE @ Aug. 29 2005,18:26)]Quote[/b] (W5EN @ Aug. 29 2005,12:32)]What ever happened to the "magic of radio?" Using this exciting new communications mode sounds about as much fun as making a cell phone call.
BINGO...nobody give a rat's behind about RADIO anymore, and unfortunately most are the very hams that should be supporting radio..ie.e. a tranceiver that sends RF to a real antenna which broadcasts through the air to be received by another antenna and decoded by a receiver. If a radio is connected to something other than an antenna, you may enjoy that, but don't call it radio because it isn;t.
That's not quite true.

Radio is the new utility, the new ISP, for the internet.

An interest in ham radio is NOT needed. All that is needed is to find a cheap (free) and easy way to allow two computers to talk to each other. Ham radio becomes such a utility.

Didn't we just go through this with all the folks who, in the 1990s, just wanted a cheap (free) and easy cell phone? Zero interest in ham radio. Just needed a new and quieter CB to call hubby on his way home from work.

Well, family cell phone plans drove them (fortunately) off the air. Maybe NetZero will drive the computers off the air?

Earthhamlink? Peoplehampc? Worldhamnet? AO-HAM-L. (Sorry, I keep forgetting to capitalize ham, whoops, HAM. Gotta learn the new lingo.) MS-HAM-N.

Hey! Anyone out there still interested in radio? Not many, I'm sure, but maybe a few left.

Ed

[N5FDL]

Most exciting new mode to date?

Except that it's a Japanese standard that really only shows its stuff on 1.2 GHz. radios costing $1,500 and repeater systems in the $10,000 range (or more), this stuff is swell.

D-Star, like Yaesu's WIRES, will never become a widely adopted standard. If other manufacturers would support it, D-Star might have a chance. But, I am not expecting Yaesu and Kenwood to help Icom sell what amounts to a proprietary standard.

However, the existence of D-Star might convince other manufactures to adopt PACO-25 for amateur use. The problem will be establishing digital repeaters.

Also, what makes D-Star interesting is its ability to connect mobile stations and repeaters to the Internet, which I am not sure APCO-25 is designed to accomplish.

In this regard, D-Star may be a better standard, but I can't imagine it becoming common. Not unless Icom wants to give away a bunch of repeaters--without requiring the upfront purchase of a bunch of expensive radios.

[ky1v]

Quote[/b] (W2RJL @ Aug. 29 2005,17:15)]HEY, CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW !!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
...and

...my TV sucks !!! (Dish Network Ad)

[wc4rav]

Quote[/b] (KD5FJE @ Aug. 29 2005,18:26)]BINGO...nobody give a rat's behind about RADIO anymore, and unfortunately most are the very hams that should be supporting radio..ie.e. a tranceiver that sends RF to a real antenna which broadcasts through the air to be received by another antenna and decoded by a receiver. If a radio is connected to something other than an antenna, you may enjoy that, but don't call it radio because it isn;t.
So I guess you the only transmitter you own is a spark- gap and your only mode is CW..

but some how I don't believe that.

this radio service is about pushing the envelope of wireless communications. when we stop pushing that envelope is when we will no longer have ANY spectrum to QSO or experiment , or what ever on -- when we stop advance the art and science of wireless communications we are all S-O-L

dit dit dit/dash dash dash /dash dit dit

[W5TXR]

Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Aug. 29 2005,19:27)]FEATURES OF APCO 25

"6.25 kHz Bandwidth (CQPSK) Modulation
The CQPSK modulator consists of a table look-up, the two outputs of which (I and Q) are Nyquist filtered and then amplitude modulated, in phase and quadrature phase, before summing. The information bits are processed by the look-up table to yield a 5-level I signal and a 5-level Q signal. The I and Q signals are filtered with the Nyquist Raised Cosine Filter previously described. The I signal is then multiplied by the carrier and the Q signal is multiplied by the carrier after it has been delayed by 90 degrees. The modulated I and Q carriers are then summed together to yield the modulator output."

What? #I can't believe people actually understand this techno babble. #Where does this fit in my HT-37 Hallicrafters?

K2WH
Some of us do in fact understand the new technology.
And some of us refuse to leave the world of electron tubes! #

To each his own!

But remember, If your always looking back into the past, (ie.. tube radios) How can you see where your heading?

If everyone were afraid of technology, you would be making a long trip on horseback to the nearest Western Union telegraph office to communicate.

[wc4rav]

Quote[/b] (N5FDL @ Aug. 29 2005,20:22)]D-Star, like Yaesu's WIRES, will never become a widely adopted standard. If other manufacturers would support it, D-Star might have a chance. But, I am not expecting Yaesu and Kenwood to help Icom sell what amounts to a proprietary standard.

However, the existence of D-Star might convince other manufactures to adopt PACO-25 for amateur use. The problem will be establishing digital repeaters.
D- star is not owned by icom - they are just the only folks to have designed a radio platform for it.
D-star is a creation OF the JARL and like p-25
is a set of standards for digital voice.

I must say that Icom has fumbled the ball a bit because
they have presneted 2 d-star platforms that arent really the same-
d-star 1.2ghz is
a back bone system will probably never take of in the us-- by the way- it really is an industrial product see
standard japan(web site)

now Vhf uhf D-star is a totally differnt animal anc can be compared to p-25 and could possible take off big time in the us - especailly when some one designs a compatible controller with internet connectivity.

[wc4rav]

1861 the two coasts of the United States were linked by telegraph. The operating procedures, codes and protocols of the telegraph were carried over to the new age of "wireless". Indeed many wireless operators came from the telegraph ranks. #

1901 Marconi's original transmitters used high voltage spark gaps to generate 'Hertzian Waves'. #The first experimental sets used induction coils with vibrating contact current interrupters to generate the high voltages
#
Before 1912, call signs were just made up by the aspiring Amateur and it wasn't until the Radio Act of 1912 that the first licenses were issued. An HTML version of Early Radio Laws 4 is on-line. Very interesting reading as it defines DE, CQ, Operating Procedures, Morse Code of the day, and many Q Signals we still use. In 1911, Hiram Percy Maxim's assumed call was SNY. In 1912, Irving Vermilya, 1ZE, 6 received Skill Certificate No. 1, thus considered as the first licensed Amateur Radio Operator. Some sources indicate the code requirement was 5 wpm (how things go around and come around - 5 wpm now in the year 2000!!!). Written exams included essay type questions -- making a diagram of transmitting and receiving apparatus and how they worked! Also of course International and US Law questions

1913 Amateurs were relegated to 200 meters and down and shocked the world with making excellent use of these higher frequencies
1915 John R. Carson applied for a patent on his idea to suppress the carrier and one sideband
1918 - The superheterodyne-principle is discovered by Armstrong. #Equipment homebrew and manufacturers switch from direct conversion to superheterodynes around 193414

1922 Carson describes FM and concludes it is inferior to AM, a decade later Armstrong places a new perspective on the matter
1923 - Patent granted for SSB

1924 - Quartz Crystals. H.S. Shaw introduces the amateur radio community to quartz crystal control of radio transmitters and Hams were the first sizable commercial market for crystals

1925 - Heater type vacuum tubes made possible the first all electric receivers. Dynamic loudspeakers appeared
1968 - The FCC authorizes SSTV in the Advanced/Extra Class subbands. Generals and
Conditionals are authorized later

1978 ASCII and other standard data codes were authorized for amateur use.

#1978 - Amateur packet radio began in Montreal, Canada in 1978, the current TNC standard grew from discussions in October of 1981. As packet becomes popular with amateurs, digipeater nodes are built and the DX Packet Cluster is born. Previously DX announcements were made by voice on 2M repeaters

1980 ASCII computer code is authorized for amateur transmissions. Two new digital data modes, AMTOR and packet. Both became popular - AMTOR on HF and packet on VHF. AMTOR eventually gave way to PACTOR and other digital modes.

1981 FCC authorizes spread spectrum (SS) on amateur frequencies. Limited to 100 Watts. Actress Hedy Lamar (Hedwig Kiesler) co-patented a frequency hopping "Secret Communication System" Aug. 11, 1942 as a way to keep the Germans from jamming radio controlled torpedos during World War II
#

taken from :http://www.ac6v.com/history.htm

some where in there lately we stopped innovating - is because we had invented all that could be invented or the a large number of hams became more interested in preserving the hobby rather than advancing it

[N0ZWG]

Quote[/b] (n2ixa @ Aug. 29 2005,11:38)]As I said, its not compatible with any thing but #Icom's D-star so what good is it if you have a Motorola or Alinco and so on .
APCO25 is an open code.

Bob
Did you even read the post? It says that it is an open protocol that any manufacturer can use.

[kb7uxe]

Can you spell "CELL PHONE"...........
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[K2WH]

Quote[/b] (W5TXR @ Aug. 29 2005,17:03)]Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Aug. 29 2005,19:27)]FEATURES OF APCO 25

"6.25 kHz Bandwidth (CQPSK) Modulation
The CQPSK modulator consists of a table look-up, the two outputs of which (I and Q) are Nyquist filtered and then amplitude modulated, in phase and quadrature phase, before summing. The information bits are processed by the look-up table to yield a 5-level I signal and a 5-level Q signal. The I and Q signals are filtered with the Nyquist Raised Cosine Filter previously described. The I signal is then multiplied by the carrier and the Q signal is multiplied by the carrier after it has been delayed by 90 degrees. The modulated I and Q carriers are then summed together to yield the modulator output."

What? #I can't believe people actually understand this techno babble. #Where does this fit in my HT-37 Hallicrafters?

K2WH
Some of us do in fact understand the new technology.
And some of us refuse to leave the world of electron tubes! #

To each his own!

But remember, If your always looking back into the past, (ie.. tube radios) How can you see where your heading?

If everyone were afraid of technology, you would be making a long trip on horseback to the nearest Western Union telegraph office to communicate.
There are some things that were never meant to change and I believe ham radio is one of them. #Why do I believe this? Simply because it is called RADIO. Sure it has improved through the years with new modes and modulation techniques but it was still a RADIO. .

Just because some things can be improved doesn't mean they should be.

Sure, add bells and whistles, add digital displays, add keyboards and new decoding software for new modes, but dammit, leave it as it was meant to be - A RADIO, not an interface to the GD internet.

K2WH

[K8TEK]

It looks to me that someone does not understand the purpose of amateur radio is the ADVANCEMENT OF RADIO. #If you want to continue using your rig built in the 1940's that requires a forklift to pick up, be my guest. #Apparently digital modes are too difficult for some to grasp.

Catch you on 146.495MHz PL=67.0Hz IMBE.

Aww, that's too bad! #Your radio don't do PL.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
*snap*

[aa1mn]

Expansion means complexity and complexity decay.

[K0RGR]

Internet phobia is becoming more widespread all the time, and the hysteria is becoming more shrill with every bleating outcry. This website is becoming 'www.qrzdon't.com' as everytime a new idea is mentioned, 40 Luddites jump on it and beat it to death with their telegraph keys. Sorry folks, but we are behaving like a group of very old men.

If Ten-Tec starts making radios to the APCO standard, I will embrace it. Until then, I see no amateur radio manufacturers in the game, and I don't see a way to roll my own. At least the DSTAR standard is owned by amateurs.

[K2WH]

Quote[/b] (K8TEK @ Aug. 30 2005,00:30)]It looks to me that someone does not understand the purpose of amateur radio is the ADVANCEMENT OF RADIO. #If you want to continue using your rig built in the 1940's that requires a forklift to pick up, be my guest. #Apparently digital modes are too difficult for some to grasp.

Catch you on 146.495MHz PL=67.0Hz IMBE.

Aww, that's too bad! #Your radio don't do PL.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
*snap*
Thats right sir, the advancement of RADIO. #Not the advancement and promotion of the internet and the continuous stream of knucklehead linking ideas to marry the two.

Just to clear things up, I do not own only tube radios. #I currently own state of the art radios such as ICOM 756pro's. #I do PSK, PACKET, MFSK16, work the sats with Yaesu etc. and enjoy it. #However, there is a line I do not believe we as hams should cross and thats relagating our radios to has been status and offering them a back seat to the internet. #That is not RADIO. #Radio is not a quaint notion that has had its day. #My call letters are my on the air identity, not my chat room personality. #Nuff said.

K2WH

[kc2te]

it sound like a new ver of echolink.:

[W5MJL]

The adaptation of amateur radio to the internet is not an advancement to amateur radio. It is an advancement to the internet. Why do amateur radio operators feel the need to improve a commercial resource?

We have some who use slow-scan tv. Should we, as amateurs try to improve television broadcasting? I don't think so.

[kr4wm]

I don't have a problem with "digital modes" that go beyond PSK31, RTTY, and CW. The problem I have is when you tie a radio into the internet. The amateur radio service is supposed to be, by it's very definition, non-commercial. This means that other than the cost of your radio, license, and ancilliary equipment, it should _NOT_ cost you one red cent to make a contact! NONE! NADA! When you tie your radio into the internet, SOMEBODY has to pay for that connection, and then your transmission becomes a "for profit" communication. You may not be profiting from it, but your ISP is. And YOU are facilitating it by connecting your radio to the internet! This makes you an accomplice after the fact (in legal terms). Can anyone say "pecuniary interest"?

[n2ixa]

I just look at what my 20 little words started..... WOW

Bob[B]

[aa1mn]

Quote[/b] ]Thats right sir, the advancement of RADIO. Not the advancement and promotion of the internet and the continuous stream of knucklehead linking ideas to marry the two.


The Internet provides a far greater service to the greater good of mankind than amateur radio ever has or ever will have the ability to do as the Internet is available to everyone, does not require a useless license for its use, and is far more versitle.

Chuck, AA1MN

[ae1x]

Quote[/b] (w5mjl @ Aug. 30 2005,08:10)]The adaptation of amateur radio to the internet is not an advancement to amateur radio. #It is an advancement to the internet. #Why do amateur radio operators feel the need to improve a commercial resource?

We have some who use slow-scan tv. #Should we, as amateurs try to improve television broadcasting? #I don't think so.
Sir,

Advancement of the Radio Art is an advancment of a commerical product. We develop all kinds of interesting things, but ultimately someone wants to make a buck off what they invent. That is how this world of ours goes around. We either participate in this world or it will just move us aside.

Ken

[W5MJL]

Quote[/b] (ae1x @ Aug. 30 2005,08:45)]Quote[/b] (w5mjl @ Aug. 30 2005,08:10)]The adaptation of amateur radio to the internet is not an advancement to amateur radio. #It is an advancement to the internet. #Why do amateur radio operators feel the need to improve a commercial resource?

We have some who use slow-scan tv. #Should we, as amateurs try to improve television broadcasting? #I don't think so.
Sir,

Advancement of the Radio Art is an advancment of a commerical product. We develop all kinds of interesting things, but ultimately someone wants to make a buck off what they invent. That is how this world of ours goes around. We either participate in this world or it will just move us aside.

Ken
I don't care if someone makes a buck for it. All I am saying is we are advancing the internet, not radio.

[ae1x]

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Aug. 30 2005,08:41)]Quote[/b] ]Thats right sir, the advancement of RADIO. #Not the advancement and promotion of the internet and the continuous stream of knucklehead linking ideas to marry the two.


The Internet provides a far greater service to the greater good of mankind than amateur radio ever has or ever will have the ability to do as the Internet is available to everyone, does not require a useless license for its use, and is far more versitle.

Chuck, AA1MN
It's not just advancement of RADIO. It's the advancement of Radio Based Communications. There have not been any major improvments in the basics of RADIO itself. The advancements have been in the fields of communications. Modulation, coding schemes, and systems. When was there a change in the basic structure of the RADIO itself? I believe it was the direct digital synthesizer (DDS) wasn't it or is the Software Defined Radio (SDR)?

Ken

[aa1mn]

Quote[/b] ]It's the advancement of Radio Based Communications.

I communicate far more effectively via the Internet and PC than amateur radio by means of chat rooms, instant messaging and email all without the need for a license, concern for skip cutting you off, ice or wind blowing down an antenna ... well, you get the idea.

There's also the myriad word processor programs -- Word Perfect and Microsoft Word being two of the more common examples -- that is another form of communication not offered by amateur radio.

Actually, cell phones technology is the most recent advancement in radio ... they are, in fact, a radio though the word "phone" is a bit misleading.

Chuck, AA1MN

[K4SFC]

This reminds me of my own White Elephant. I purchased an AOR ARD-9800 Digital Voice Modem two years ago. It's really a joke. If anyone is nuts enough to pay me a decent price for it, it's yours.

[k2les]

If you guys want to let the hobby die and wither away as you drive your beat up brown station wagons with 20 antennas on top and a bumper sticker declaring "The only way they'll stop me from sending CW is when they take my brass key from my dead cold hands"... then you're only hurting the hobby.

We (the ham radio community) have a ton of underutilized spectrum that some wireless entity is waiting to snap up from us. It's already happened along the Canadian border (public safety 420 MHz band), the 220 MHz band, etc.

Use it or lose it - and going digital, creating our own digital wireless backbone, etc... is the way to embrace the bandwidth we have now.

[W5MJL]

Quote[/b] (ae1x @ Aug. 30 2005,08:51)]It's not just advancement of RADIO. It's the advancement of Radio Based Communications.
Oh God, is that another way of saying internet-enhanced radio? I'm sorry, but when you don't need a radio for the communication, it is NOT RADIO. Having a token radio, when a radio is not even necessary does not improve the radio art, nor does it improve the communication art. It's a toy. Nothing else.

[wc4rav]

Quote[/b] (w5mjl @ Aug. 30 2005,06:49)]Quote[/b] (ae1x @ Aug. 30 2005,08:45)]Quote[/b] (w5mjl @ Aug. 30 2005,08:10)]The adaptation of amateur radio to the internet is not an advancement to amateur radio. #It is an advancement to the internet. #Why do amateur radio operators feel the need to improve a commercial resource?

We have some who use slow-scan tv. #Should we, as amateurs try to improve television broadcasting? #I don't think so.
Sir,

Advancement of the Radio Art is an advancment of a commerical product. We develop all kinds of interesting things, but ultimately someone wants to make a buck off what they invent. That is how this world of ours goes around. We either participate in this world or it will just move us aside.

Ken
I don't care if someone makes a buck for it. #All I am saying is we are advancing the internet, not radio.
radio began on wires then became wireless the term radio wasn't adopted until very much after radio was a utility.
all those that partisipated the invention and devolpment of radio and it's techiques patented there ideas - to protect their ablity to market them.
Many of you connect you stations to comercial power, and or commercial batteries, or commercial solar panels-- oh but wait a minute -- many of you BUY your radios from folks in the business of making a profit .
so whats the big fear of connecting your station to the internet.

[W5MJL]

Quote[/b] (wc4rav @ Aug. 30 2005,10:46)]so whats the big fear of connecting your station to the internet.
There is no fear of the internet. It's just not radio. Why hook up a radio to the internet when you can JUST USE THE INTERNET? Take out the radio. It is not necessary, and you don't need a license to operate it.

[K8TEK]

Since when did anyone on this board become a dictionary. If it utilizes RF, it is radio... Plain and simple. The internet may be utilized in linking radios, but it is still radio.

I suppose next I am going to be told that my car isn't a real car, because a real car had to be crank started.

[W5MJL]

Quote[/b] (k2les @ Aug. 30 2005,10:41)]We (the ham radio community) have a ton of underutilized spectrum that some wireless entity is waiting to snap up from us. #It's already happened along the Canadian border (public safety 420 MHz band), the 220 MHz band, etc. #
Do you want to save our frequencies? Does the internet use our frequencies? No it doesn't, but keep depending on the internet and maybe you will convince the fcc that our frequencies ARE NOT NEEDED. If the fcc would ever believe that 90% of our traffic could be handled on the internet there would be no amateur frequencies.

[W5MJL]

Quote[/b] (K8TEK @ Aug. 30 2005,11:00)]Since when did anyone on this board become a dictionary. #If it utilizes RF, it is radio... Plain and simple. #The internet may be utilized in linking radios, but it is still radio.

I suppose next I am going to be told that my car isn't a real car, because a real car had to be crank started.
There is a difference between radio, and amateur radio. #Get a clue.

[K8TEK]

Perhaps I need you to explain the difference between the two, oh brilliant one.

Also, this topic is about D-STAR, not weather "radio" and the internet should form a bond.

[W5MJL]

Quote[/b] (K8TEK @ Aug. 30 2005,11:26)]Perhaps I need you to explain the difference between the two, oh brilliant one.

Also, this topic is about D-STAR, not weather "radio" and the internet should form a bond.
I never brought up the subject of weather radio. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[WZ4I]

Quote[/b] (w5mjl @ Aug. 30 2005,09:05)]Quote[/b] (K8TEK @ Aug. 30 2005,11:00)]Since when did anyone on this board become a dictionary. If it utilizes RF, it is radio... Plain and simple. The internet may be utilized in linking radios, but it is still radio.

I suppose next I am going to be told that my car isn't a real car, because a real car had to be crank started.
There is a difference between radio, and amateur radio. Get a clue.
W5HTW sums it up best..



RADIO

There is a lot of confusion over radio, ham radio, computers, washing machines, iPods, toasters, bumper jacks, and dogs with curly tails. Let's see if we can help.

Kenwood TS-520, with dipole: Ham radio
Icom 756 Pro with beam on 70 foot tower: Ham radio
Computer: Not ham radio.
Laser printer: Not ham radio
Garage door opener: Radio. Not ham radio
Cordless phone: Radio. Not ham radio.
Collins S-Line: Ham radio.
Microwave oven: Radio. Not ham radio.
Wireless internet: Radio. Not ham radio.
Internet: Not radio, not ham radio.
Audiovox CDM4500: Cell phone. Radio. Not ham radio.
Police communications unit: Radio. Not ham radio.
Fireman with HT on belt: Radio. Not ham radio.
VCR remote: Not radio. Not ham radio. It is optical. However, under the rules by some here, since it communicates it is ham radio. No. Not ham radio. Again. Not ham radio.
Toaster: Not ham radio. Not radio.
Wireless toaster: Radio? Not ham radio.
Wireless internet toaster: Radio? Not ham radio.
Laptop: Not radio, not ham radio.
Laptop cat: Not radio, not ham radio.
CB set: Radio. Not ham radio.

HAM goes with EGGS, GRITS, or maybe MUSTARD and BREAD.
"Ham" goes with eggs, grits, or maybe mustard and bread.

"Ham radio" goes with nothing but radios and antennas meant for amateur radio operating.

HAM does not stand for anything. (Except meat to use with EGGS)

Our hobby is "ham radio." Or "amateur radio."

Wireless internet devices are devices used to allow computers to talk to other computers. They are not ham radio. BPL is not ham radio. DSL is not ham radio. Satellite TV is not ham radio.

IMPORTANT POINT:
Computers may be used to assist in ham radio. Ham radio should NOT be used to assist in computers.

Ham radio is not a means to some other hobby. It is a hobby in itself. Other things, such as computers, or the internet, may be used in assisting ham radio, in helping find information about ham radio equipment, operators, rules, procedures.

The internet is not ham radio. Ham radio is not the internet. Those interested in the internet are fine, far as I am concerned. Those who like fishing are also fine. The goal of ham radio, though, is to be interested in ham radio.

Ham radio is not a utility communications service. It is not Ma Bell, Junior Bell, Taco Bell or Liberty Bell.

Things you can operate without a ham radio license:

CB, cordless phone, TV, Nextel, marine radio, aircraft radio, garage door opener, computer, cat, kitchen sink, VCR, motor vehicle, farm tractor, electric toothbrush. MURS, FRS, GMRS, Public Safety radio, AM broadcast station, Television station, taxi radio, laser printer, wireless internet link, Part 15 radio, laptop computer, inkjet printer, microwave oven, wired telephone.

Things you need a ham radio license to operate:

Ham radio.

Things you need a CB license to operate:

(I'm thinking. Hang in there.)

Things you can do with a ham radio license:

Operate ham radio

Things you can do without a ham radio license:

Virtually anything else. Be a fireman, be a cop, get married, drive a tractor, bale alfalfa, bail a boat, drive a truck - I'm sure you can think of more.

Again, there is no HAM. Computers are not ham radio. The internet is not ham radio. Ham radio is not a utility; it is not a cell phone, a police radio, or a garage door opener.

If you are a ham radio operator, welcome! If you are an internet operator, that's fine, do it on the internet. If you are a HAM, change and be a "ham."

[ke4pjw]

Quote[/b] (kb4qlz @ Aug. 30 2005,03:28)]Kenwood TS-520, with dipole: Ham radio
Icom 756 Pro with beam on 70 foot tower: Ham radio
Computer: Not ham radio.
Laser printer: Not ham radio
Garage door opener: Radio. Not ham radio
Cordless phone: Radio. Not ham radio.
Collins S-Line: Ham radio.
Microwave oven: Radio. Not ham radio.
Wireless internet: Radio. Not ham radio.
Internet: Not radio, not ham radio.
Audiovox CDM4500: Cell phone. Radio. Not ham radio.
Police communications unit: Radio. Not ham radio.
Fireman with HT on belt: Radio. Not ham radio.
VCR remote: Not radio. Not ham radio. It is optical. However, under the rules by some here, since it communicates it is ham radio. No. Not ham radio. Again. Not ham radio.
Toaster: Not ham radio. Not radio.
Wireless toaster: Radio? Not ham radio.
Wireless internet toaster: Radio? Not ham radio.
Laptop: Not radio, not ham radio.
Laptop cat: Not radio, not ham radio.
CB set: Radio. Not ham radio.
D-Star enabled radio: ham Radio

[W5MJL]

Quote[/b] (kb4qlz @ Aug. 30 2005,11:28)]W5HTW sums it up best..



RADIO

There is a lot of confusion over radio, ham radio, computers, washing machines, iPods, toasters, bumper jacks, and dogs with curly tails. Let's see if we can help.

Kenwood TS-520, with dipole: Ham radio
Icom 756 Pro with beam on 70 foot tower: Ham radio
Computer: Not ham radio.
Laser printer: Not ham radio
Garage door opener: Radio. Not ham radio
Cordless phone: Radio. Not ham radio.
Collins S-Line: Ham radio.
Microwave oven: Radio. Not ham radio.
Wireless internet: Radio. Not ham radio.
Internet: Not radio, not ham radio.
Audiovox CDM4500: Cell phone. Radio. Not ham radio.
Police communications unit: Radio. Not ham radio.
Fireman with HT on belt: Radio. Not ham radio.
VCR remote: Not radio. Not ham radio. It is optical. However, under the rules by some here, since it communicates it is ham radio. No. Not ham radio. Again. Not ham radio.
Toaster: Not ham radio. Not radio.
Wireless toaster: Radio? Not ham radio.
Wireless internet toaster: Radio? Not ham radio.
Laptop: Not radio, not ham radio.
Laptop cat: Not radio, not ham radio.
CB set: Radio. Not ham radio.

HAM goes with EGGS, GRITS, or maybe MUSTARD and BREAD.
"Ham" goes with eggs, grits, or maybe mustard and bread.

"Ham radio" goes with nothing but radios and antennas meant for amateur radio operating.

HAM does not stand for anything. (Except meat to use with EGGS)

Our hobby is "ham radio." Or "amateur radio."

Wireless internet devices are devices used to allow computers to talk to other computers. They are not ham radio. BPL is not ham radio. DSL is not ham radio. Satellite TV is not ham radio.

IMPORTANT POINT:
Computers may be used to assist in ham radio. Ham radio should NOT be used to assist in computers.

Ham radio is not a means to some other hobby. It is a hobby in itself. Other things, such as computers, or the internet, may be used in assisting ham radio, in helping find information about ham radio equipment, operators, rules, procedures.

The internet is not ham radio. Ham radio is not the internet. Those interested in the internet are fine, far as I am concerned. Those who like fishing are also fine. The goal of ham radio, though, is to be interested in ham radio.

Ham radio is not a utility communications service. It is not Ma Bell, Junior Bell, Taco Bell or Liberty Bell.

Things you can operate without a ham radio license:

CB, cordless phone, TV, Nextel, marine radio, aircraft radio, garage door opener, computer, cat, kitchen sink, VCR, motor vehicle, farm tractor, electric toothbrush. MURS, FRS, GMRS, Public Safety radio, AM broadcast station, Television station, taxi radio, laser printer, wireless internet link, Part 15 radio, laptop computer, inkjet printer, microwave oven, wired telephone.

Things you need a ham radio license to operate:

Ham radio.

Things you need a CB license to operate:

(I'm thinking. Hang in there.)

Things you can do with a ham radio license:

Operate ham radio

Things you can do without a ham radio license:

Virtually anything else. Be a fireman, be a cop, get married, drive a tractor, bale alfalfa, bail a boat, drive a truck - I'm sure you can think of more.

Again, there is no HAM. Computers are not ham radio. The internet is not ham radio. Ham radio is not a utility; it is not a cell phone, a police radio, or a garage door opener.

If you are a ham radio operator, welcome! If you are an internet operator, that's fine, do it on the internet. If you are a HAM, change and be a "ham."
That very well could be my all-time favorite post.

[wa4dou]

And just what is it that is so exciting about D-Star?

[W5TXR]

As a former Motorolan I can tell you that digital technology is here to stay (like it or not).

I'm not saying it good or bad.

At all boils down to Spectrum Efficient communications.
While digitized audio is spectrum efficient, you lose that nice clear,clean, crisp analog audio quality.

I like tube stuff too!
I remember the good old days of tube/solid state radios!
The audio of a U71LHT Motorola Motrac couldn't be beat!
The first radio I ever worked on was a Motorola Low band Motrac (100 watts)
She was a beauty!
Anyone that ever worked on that stuff will remember that Motorola unique "twee" noise it made while transmitting. "I can name that twee in one note"

Anyways......There should be a standard for Amateur radio and a seperate standard for commercial/public safety. Simply for the fact that the needs are different.

D-Star (in my opinion) should be the Amateur radio standard.

As far as industry/public safety goes....well APCO 25 is the standard.

Why others come up with different digital schemes , I'll never know. Perhaps they have too much time on their hands!

APCO 25 uses IMBE (Improved multi-band excitaton) and IMBE is proprietary property of Digital Voice Systems Inc.
Which means if you want to use it you must buy a license $$$$ #(Like software)


Others include:

Motorola ASTRO -
uses VSELP (Vector sum excited linear prediction)
simply put, It uses a prediction scheme to correct for missing bits.
I'm ashamed to say but, Motorola ASTRO audio sucks!
and it is not compatable with anything else.

GE/Ericsson used a system call AEGIS and is not compatable with anything else.
I don't know much about AEEGIS.

Open Sky Sysyem
I beleive that is a IMBE protocol but i'm sure it's not compatable with APCO 25.
Don't know much about Open Sky either.


Pro Voice
Is a newer Ericsson IMBE system used and it also is not compatable with any other system.

My point is........
You think #the Amateur radio community has compatability issues???

Trivia Question:

Does anyone know why tube audio quality is better than solid state audio?

K2WH, I'll bet you can answer that one!



"Got Interoperability?"

[AB8UU]

If you have a use for it, then use it, if you don't, then don't. Just don't blast the protocol because you don't use it, and don't blast the established modes (ssb, fm, cw, am, packet, psk, etc.) because you don't use them. Amateur radio is about experimentation, right?

[ve3sub]

:rock: VE7TKO Jan, you've really stirred it up here. Take it easy fellows. I agree with the statement Amateur radio is experimental. I have the D-Star board installed in my Icom IC-2200H. I also have it in my IC-V82. I am one of the experimentors. I still monitor 145.610 for other D-Star users in the Windsor/Detroit area. I am still looking forward to my first contact. 73 all

Terry VE3SUB

[n0nwo]

so far... D STAR sounds like it does the same thing as a tome squelch but with a lot more hastle. Maybe as it is developed, it will become more usefull, but for now... tone squelch works just fine.

Minton

[kr4wm]

D-Star enabled radio: ham Radio

Nyet. D-Star enabled radio = ham radio *ONLY* if it is *NOT* utilizing an internet connection to complete a contact.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Aug. 30 2005,06:41)]The Internet provides a far greater service to the greater good of mankind than amateur radio ever has or ever will have the ability to do as the Internet is available to everyone, does not require a useless license for its use, and is far more versitle.

Chuck, AA1MN
Your license may be useless to you, but I (and many more) use ours quite often, thanks. #And, hopefully, will continue to do so.

Also, the Internet is far LESS versatile than Amateur Radio. There is only one mode, it is tied to commercial interests, and is beholden to a very complex infrastructure, for starters.

[ke4pjw]

Quote[/b] (W5TXR @ Aug. 30 2005,05:24)]Trivia Question:

Does anyone know why tube audio quality is better than solid state audio?
Because of the crappy slew rate on tube amps, they "sound" better. This as opposed to faithful reproduction of the input signal. Just because it "sounds" better, does not indicate it is a faithful reproduction.

[ke4pjw]

Quote[/b] (kr4wm @ Aug. 30 2005,06:22)] D-Star enabled radio: ham Radio

Nyet. D-Star enabled radio = ham radio *ONLY* if it is *NOT* utilizing an internet connection to complete a contact.
No, it's still ham radio :) The only time it's not ham radio is when ham radio is not used to complete the contact.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (ke4pjw @ Aug. 30 2005,12:25)]Quote[/b] (W5TXR @ Aug. 30 2005,05:24)]Trivia Question:

Does anyone know why tube audio quality is better than solid state audio?
Because of the crappy slew rate on tube amps, they "sound" better. This as opposed to faithful reproduction of the input signal. Just because it "sounds" better, does not indicate it is a faithful reproduction.
Not quite. The tube amps sound better because they are analog, and our ears are analog. The "digital" is the center part, of an ADA (analog to digital to analog)conversion. Fidelity loss during conversion is inevitable.

Non-converted is more faithful to the original. And that's why it sounds better to most people. To those who do not have an original to compare, the digital may sound better, but it simply cannot be as faithful to the original as one which tracks directly.

[ke4pjw]

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Aug. 30 2005,06:30)]Quote[/b] (ke4pjw @ Aug. 30 2005,12:25)]Quote[/b] (W5TXR @ Aug. 30 2005,05:24)]Trivia Question:

Does anyone know why tube audio quality is better than solid state audio?
Because of the crappy slew rate on tube amps, they "sound" better. This as opposed to faithful reproduction of the input signal. Just because it "sounds" better, does not indicate it is a faithful reproduction.
Not quite. #The tube amps sound better because they are analog, and our ears are analog. #The "digital" is the center part, of an ADA (analog to digital to analog)conversion. #Fidelity loss during conversion is inevitable.

Non-converted is more faithful to the original. #And that's why it sounds better to most people. #To those who do not have an original to compare, the digital may sound better, but it simply cannot be as faithful to the original as one which tracks directly.
Uh, solid state amps are analog as well. Not sure where digital was involved in the trivia question.

[VE7TKO]

Quote[/b] (n2ixa @ Aug. 29 2005,11:38)]As I said, its not compatible with any thing but Icom's D-star so what good is it if you have a Motorola or Alinco and so on .
APCO25 is an open code.

Bob
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif To N2IXA (Bob) I say:
It appears that you choose to not understand what you read. I said the protocol is owned by the JARL and not by a single manufacturer. This makes it an open protocol that any manufacturer can use.

D-STAR is to ham radio what the APCO Project 25 is to commercial radio. Motorola will never use it because they do not build ham radios. Alinco will some day use it because it is an open protocol. Anybody in the business of building ham radio equipment can use the D-STAR system. They only have to contact the JARL to get the ball rolling.

APCO Project 25 is only compatible with APCO Project 25. This is a product design for commercial radios. You will never find a commercially built ham radio with APCO Project 25 installed. It is just a mater of time until all ham radio manufactures will be offering a D-STAR enabled amateur radios.

[w8znx]

Boy

shure as hell
much to do
about nothing

you want
play with it do so

but to me whole thing
seems romantic as
using a cell phone

computers are a tool of the devil

mac

[VE7TKO]

Quote[/b] (k2les @ Aug. 30 2005,08:41)]Use it or lose it - and going digital, creating our own digital wireless backbone, etc... is the way to embrace the bandwidth we have now.
I agree with you.

[VE7TKO]

Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Aug. 30 2005,04:11)]There are some things that were never meant to change and I believe ham radio is one of them. Why do I believe this? Simply because it is called RADIO. Sure it has improved through the years with new modes and modulation techniques but it was still a RADIO. .

Just because some things can be improved doesn't mean they should be.

Sure, add bells and whistles, add digital displays, add keyboards and new decoding software for new modes, but dammit, leave it as it was meant to be - A RADIO, not an interface to the GD internet.

K2WH
I will presume that GD Internet means GooD Internet. If it doesn’t, get off your spark gap transmitter and stop interfering with my hobby.

[w8vho]

Well I will get a good cussing! but, sounds like a bunch of old timers afraid of something new again! We would still be using spark communication if up to some people!

[g8khs]

I'm afraid the title of this article is wrong; D-Star is not a mode, it is modulation applied to a mode of transmission. I have time for all modes and modulation, it's the people that try to bully and push others with their views I object to! There's no problem with D-Star with me, I just won't be using it.
I'm in the process of clearing out my fm only radios that are sitting in a box in my shack, and
as the repeater network and fm usage in the UK is very low now-days, they won’t be missed, at all!
D-star will go the same way in the future.
I prefer hf and vhf/uhf/shf weak signal operation. It's FUN, remember that word? You develop the potential of your station and yourself, and are not reliant on a repeater or a digital network run by other people, it’s you and your equipment at the cutting edge, contacting like-minded individuals doing something worthwhile, not hitching a ride on a system. There’s a big challenge setting up a digital network, but it will be very, very boring to use.
Get out there, DO SOMETHING or you’ll just sit there with your digital HT with umpteen menus and digital messaging, going nowhere, pretending to enjoy yourself and achieving zilch, nada, zero.

So guys, enjoy your D-Star, or whatever, just don't mess up my interest in radio, or anyone else’s.

73 es gd dx G8KHS

[wc4rav]

It's not ham radio when licensed Radio amateurs are not invloved when we are invlved then it is Amateur RADIO..

atleast that what part 97 states.


CW wasn't radio either but now we can't get ya'll to give it up.

[KI4IJQ]

Quote[/b] (kr4wm @ Aug. 30 2005,06:13)]I don't have a problem with "digital modes" that go beyond PSK31, RTTY, and CW. The problem I have is when you tie a radio into the internet. The amateur radio service is supposed to be, by it's very definition, non-commercial. This means that other than the cost of your radio, license, and ancilliary equipment, it should _NOT_ cost you one red cent to make a contact! NONE! NADA! When you tie your radio into the internet, SOMEBODY has to pay for that connection, and then your transmission becomes a "for profit" communication. You may not be profiting from it, but your ISP is. And YOU are facilitating it by connecting your radio to the internet! This makes you an accomplice after the fact (in legal terms). Can anyone say "pecuniary interest"?
so your saying that an auto-patch should be illegal? since a phone line does cost someone something you know?

man every time somone brings up something on this website i am completely and totally amazed at how some of you people fear change... guess what, things move on... digital and data over radio is still radio, it gets turned into radio waves no matter whats going over it, so thats a stupid argument...

seriously if you are happy with just doing CW or whatever, hey, thats your decision and it should be respected... but to come here and say that digital modes and the internet are the spawn of satan and will destroy all that is ham radio is quite frankly stupid and you people should really look at what your typing, becuause i am amazed that some of you made it past y2k without giving yourself a heart-attack with all this ham radio doomsday crap i keep seeing over and over again here...

also the REAL reason that ham radio is going to die, and your going to loose all your spectrum is people that do nothing but moan about other modes, digital, and tech licences... of course people wont want to become hams, I really would hate to be associated with some of the people i have seen on this board, and that really sucks because i enjoy ham radio alot... so your going to have no new hams, and all the old hams are going to die off, and that will be the end of all that is amateur radio...

[wc4rav]

Quote[/b] (w8znx @ Aug. 30 2005,13:03)]computers are a tool of the devil

mac
then why do you not only own one, but have it connected to millions of others.

[wc4rav]

Quote[/b] (KI4IJQ @ Aug. 30 2005,15:03)]Quote[/b] (kr4wm @ Aug. 30 2005,06:13)]I don't have a problem with "digital modes" that go beyond PSK31, RTTY, and CW. The problem I have is when you tie a radio into the internet. The amateur radio service is supposed to be, by it's very definition, non-commercial. This means that other than the cost of your radio, license, and ancilliary equipment, it should _NOT_ cost you one red cent to make a contact! NONE! NADA! When you tie your radio into the internet, SOMEBODY has to pay for that connection, and then your transmission becomes a "for profit" communication. You may not be profiting from it, but your ISP is. And YOU are facilitating it by connecting your radio to the internet! This makes you an accomplice after the fact (in legal terms). Can anyone say "pecuniary interest"?
so your saying that an auto-patch should be illegal? since a phone line does cost someone something you know?

man every time somone brings up something on this website i am completely and totally amazed at how some of you people fear change... guess what, things move on... digital and data over radio is still radio, it gets turned into radio waves no matter whats going over it, so thats a stupid argument...

seriously if you are happy with just doing CW or whatever, hey, thats your decision and it should be respected... but to come here and say that digital modes and the internet are the spawn of satan and will destroy all that is ham radio is quite frankly stupid and you people should really look at what your typing, becuause i am amazed that some of you made it past y2k without giving yourself a heart-attack with all this ham radio doomsday crap i keep seeing over and over again here...

also the REAL reason that ham radio is going to die, and your going to loose all your spectrum is people that do nothing but moan about other modes, digital, and tech licences... of course people wont want to become hams, I really would hate to be associated with some of the people i have seen on this board, and that really sucks because i enjoy ham radio alot... so your going to have no new hams, and all the old hams are going to die off, and that will be the end of all that is amateur radio...
amen

we who refuse to advance are our biggest threat.

[VE7TKO]

Quote[/b] (w8znx @ Aug. 30 2005,13:03)]computers are a tool of the devil

mac
Sure! Only if he is your boss.

All things can be good, if properly used. I have had a PC ever since the time of the TANDY 2000. That mistake cost me almost $6,000. That did not turn me off of computers.

You might be surprised to hear that ALL ham radio, including D-STAR, can be used for the good of mankind.

[VE7TKO]

Quote[/b] (KI6ABZ @ Aug. 29 2005,12:44)]While I think that the cell-phone industry has immesurably helped society, it has also created yet another revenue-stream for CA (Corporate America) and money sink for us. We now brag about spending "only $50 a month" or "only $100 a month" for our cell-phones.

Can you imagine the next step? Every repeater connected through the Internet to a central hub, and every time you key your radio, it registers your closest repeater with the hub. That would become the amateur equivelant of Nextel's PTT service.

Now THAT would be interesting.
I think you hit the nail on the head. All of the advantages of Nextel’s Direct Connect are to be had in D-STAR. And that will only be the beginning. You don’t have to loose any of the regular features of your FM ham radio because it will be dual mode.

The only thing that you might loose is that monthly cell phone bill.

You will only get out of it, what you put into it. The fun is in the experimenting and in the public service.

[K0RGR]

I want to point out that while the water is rising in downtown New Orleans, CNN is reporting on several Internet bloggers who are reporting from inside the devastated city. People are emailing photos and video clips from all over the disaster area via the Internet. Fox and MSNBC are filing some of their stories that way. Yet, ARES reports that they can't get hams into the area to support the relief efforts. Hmmmm....so HF is the answer http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Until we figure out some way to deliver services that the agencies really need and want, there isn't much point...DSTAR might help with that.

In any case, some people here are letting their pre-conceived ideas and prejudices about Internet-enabled ham applications lead them to condemn anything with that capability. DSTAR is primarily RF-based - the Internet capability is a secondary issue.

We would all love to see a completely RF-based high-speed digital network. Have you ever seen the microwave towers AT+T built to build their network? My dad engineered part of that system, so I am somewhat acquainted with it. Have you seen the computing network MCI built to do the routing for the their digital networks? I've seen part of it. We hams don't have the collective budget to buy the fuses to run it.

So, we can build smaller RF networks, at least fairly good sized regional ones. Meanwhile, until MCI surplusses out their whole system, we can use the Internet to provide those functions for us, and fill in the holes where we don't have microwave towers. It only makes good sense.

And, just like ham radio itself - if you can't understand why we need it, you just don't get it. There's no reason for me to waste my time explaining it to you.

[kb3mng]

Quote[/b] (KI4IJQ @ Aug. 30 2005,15:03)]Quote[/b] (kr4wm @ Aug. 30 2005,06:13)]I don't have a problem with "digital modes" that go beyond PSK31, RTTY, and CW. The problem I have is when you tie a radio into the internet. The amateur radio service is supposed to be, by it's very definition, non-commercial. This means that other than the cost of your radio, license, and ancilliary equipment, it should _NOT_ cost you one red cent to make a contact! NONE! NADA! When you tie your radio into the internet, SOMEBODY has to pay for that connection, and then your transmission becomes a "for profit" communication. You may not be profiting from it, but your ISP is. And YOU are facilitating it by connecting your radio to the internet! This makes you an accomplice after the fact (in legal terms). Can anyone say "pecuniary interest"?
so your saying that an auto-patch should be illegal? since a phone line does cost someone something you know?

man every time somone brings up something on this website i am completely and totally amazed at how some of you people fear change... guess what, things move on... digital and data over radio is still radio, it gets turned into radio waves no matter whats going over it, so thats a stupid argument...
I don't think he means just autopatch -- I think he means repeaters in general. After all, every time you cause a repeater to transmit, it runs up the electric bill a little bit for the repeater operator. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I'm not so amazed that people fear change, because that is a natural human response. (That is, if you get a large group of people, you should expect some portion of them to fear change; I suspect that those are the people least able to deal with changes, but I don't really know how to test that hypothesis.)

What I'm amazed about is the number of really silly arguments (like this one) that people come up with to support their positions. How do you get here from 97.113(a)(3)?

b.t.w. Has anybody figured out what you DO with D-STAR or APCO25? What I've gathered so far:

D-STAR radio
- call a radio by call sign, similar to DSC in marine bands
- data packets, but not AX25
- voice over the data packet channel, rather than analog

APCO25
- ? ? ? I saw a bunch about what kind of modulation it uses to send bits, but if there was useful information there, it was buried in the details

[K0RGR]

By the way, don't take my previous post as a dig at ARES- the SATERN net on 14.265 and the ARES Emergency net on 3873 are both busy and turning away non-emergency traffic right now. I haven't listened to the health and welfare nets yet.
However, the TV people keep screaming about how there are NO commmunications into the area except these Internet bloggers... but people keep calling for help on their cellphones, so they are apparently not out everywhere...

[kr4wm]

Quote[/b] (wc4rav @ Aug. 30 2005,15:07)]Quote[/b] (KI4IJQ @ Aug. 30 2005,15:03)]
so your saying that an auto-patch should be illegal? since a phone line does cost someone something you know?

man every time somone brings up something on this website i am completely and totally amazed at how some of you people fear change... guess what, things move on... digital and data over radio is still radio, it gets turned into radio waves no matter whats going over it, so thats a stupid argument...

seriously if you are happy with just doing CW or whatever, hey, thats your decision and it should be respected... but to come here and say that digital modes and the internet are the spawn of satan and will destroy all that is ham radio is quite frankly stupid and you people should really look at what your typing, becuause i am amazed that some of you made it past y2k without giving yourself a heart-attack with all this ham radio doomsday crap i keep seeing over and over again here...

also the REAL reason that ham radio is going to die, and your going to loose all your spectrum is people that do nothing but moan about other modes, digital, and tech licences... of course people wont want to become hams, I really would hate to be associated with some of the people i have seen on this board, and that really sucks because i enjoy ham radio alot... so your going to have no new hams, and all the old hams are going to die off, and that will be the end of all that is amateur radio...
amen

we who refuse to advance are our biggest threat.

You might want to get your SHIFT key checked. It only appears to work when you feel like yelling, and seems to skip the first letter of every sentence you type.

I never said that internet connected radios would be the "doomsday of amateur radio". My opinion is that combining the two is a desecration of all that is holy about radio that should be discouraged.

You won't hear me complaining about no-code techs, some of them are my best friends. You'll never hear me complain about USB/LSB/AM/FM/CW/PSK31/Hellschriber (sp?)/FAX/Packet or any other mode of RADIO communications where a signal begins at a radio, emanates through feedline and an antenna, next through the ether, and is received by a similar setup at the other end.

If you're placing the dividing line between "OF's"* and "YW's"** to be the level of willingness to connect amateur radios to the internet, you're sadly mistaken and way off base. The dividing point _IS_ the people who are truly interested in amateur _RADIO_ versus the people who would _PERVERT_ our hobby by connecting radios to the internet. I know plenty of young people who really are interested in the amateur RADIO hobby, and don't want to warp the hobby into something it should not be.

I think research will prove that the great majority of people who desire internet-connected radios are those people who refuse to invest sweat-equity (read: LAZY) for a higher-privileged license that would allow them to communicate long distances on HF. They are looking for some place to fit in that requires no effort in learning the finer points of the radio art such as propagation, how to build and maintain an effective antenna system, and other long-distance radio skills, yet they long for the thrill of a DX contact. What they don't understand is that they have accomplished absolutely NOTHING when they call someone over the internet halfway around the world! All they have done is to borrow a telephone wire and ring someone up over an internet connection. They get a false sense of accomplishment from hearing someone speak with an accent different than their own. If this "floats your boat", I'm happy for you, but you're not advancing the radio art one bit!

I would venture to say that very few of the hams who use internet-connected radios are doing so for a valid reason. The other 97% are those who are too lazy to take and pass the required tests to get on HF. Deed restrictions are not really a valid excuse when you look at all the designs for effective stealth HF antennas on the internet. If someone is truly interested in getting on the air with real RF, they will find a way! Some of the excuses I've seen here are pitiful!

1. I can't afford it! (If you can afford a computer and an internet connection, by God you can afford a cheap radio and a wire antenna.

2. My landlord won't let me put up an antenna! (Get yourself some alarm foil and paste your antenna to an interior wall. Paint it to hide it if you must.) Our radio club made a dozen SSB/QRP contacts at Field Day this year (took about an hour including some short rag chews). You don't have to run 1000 watts and advertise yourself over your next door neighbor's TV to make contacts!

3. I'm in a nursing home and this is all I can have! (See number 2, but it's quite possible that you are in the ONLY group that can truly justify using radio over the internet!)

4. I have to pass the code test [sniffle] to get my HF license and I can do the same thing on the internet, so why should I bother? WHINE WHINE WHINE! I hear the sound of 1000 itty-bitty violins playing just for you! Don't worry. You're just about to be rewarded for your laziness and patience.

People with internet-connected radios crave acceptance of their bad habit, and they're not getting it from anyone other than those who think the same way they do. They can't stand it when someone who has been in the hobby a long time criticizes what they are doing by saying "it's not radio". Have you ever heard the term "experience"? If there is a group of old timers who have been around for 25 years in the hobby and they're all telling you that what you're doing is not radio, you should darn well listen to them! They're relying on the experience that can only come from being intimately involved in the hobby for a long time.

If I were you, I'd be embarrassed by what you've said; but I guess you won't be. Someone who thinks like you will come along soon enough and chastise me for being truthful, then coddle you since I'm hurting your feelings by telling you the truth.

No one has said that connecting a radio to the internet was advancing the radio art except those who seem to enjoy doing it. The hundreds of thousands of the rest of us just don't agree! I guess you won't ever have to worry about meeting me "on the air". One thing is for certain, you _DEFINITELY_ won't have to worry about meeting me "on the Dingotel***"! <GRIN>

-KR4WM

*OF=Old Fart(s)
**YF=Young Whippersnappers
***Dingotel=A box designed to connect FRS radios to the internet

[W5MJL]

What a great post. Kudos to KR4WM.

[wc4rav]

I bet ya telegraph operators said the same things when that dumb fangled wireless came along and them dumb fangled whipper snappers wanted to send CW thru the air.
how did that advance the art/science of communications?

then when voice came along I bet they called Bell a witch doctor for his dark magic.

Ya'll make me laugh.
I'm having a great time in this thread. I think I've posted on this more than I ever have before.

I hope to talk with ya'll in/person/on-air/ via web more in the future.

because I enjoy the art of communicating with others

[KK7AC]

W5MJL sure talks down about the internet. However, he seems to really enjoy it. Over 3000 posts on this site alone since Feb.?!?! Thats 15+ a day! -My wife don't even talk that much! #..I TALK on the radio not TYPE about it on the INTERNET in a chat-room style blog such as this one!!

Ham radio is communicating to one another on radio not typing to one another on the internet #-Thats my stupid little moto! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

http://www.qrz.com/callsign/kk7ac

[W5MJL]

You know what's funny about that. I can do both. Quite amazing isn't it? 90 percent of my posts are done at the office. One of the joys of owning your own business.

[n4xts]

Verizon Wireless is deploying COW's (cells on wheels) in the affected areas of hurricane Katrina. Their COW's now support 1x RTT 60-100Kbps data. Other wireless carriers are following suit, including Cingular and Alltel. Amazing how even those fierce competitors can come together to serve a community in need while hams are too busy bitching and moaning about moving forward in technology.

Amazing what can get done when people decide to adavance an art and work together to solve problems.

Just think of the advancements we could make if the ham community decided to unite rather than divide. We might actually have a chance of not just surviving but thriving.

Then again Verizon, Sprint and Cingular might gain some valuable spectrum for such advanced digital systems as EV-Do rev A, UMTS (the new GSM) etc.

[KI4IJQ]

Quote[/b] (kb3mng @ Aug. 30 2005,17:01)]Quote[/b] (KI4IJQ @ Aug. 30 2005,15:03)]Quote[/b] (kr4wm @ Aug. 30 2005,06:13)]I don't have a problem with "digital modes" that go beyond PSK31, RTTY, and CW. The problem I have is when you tie a radio into the internet. The amateur radio service is supposed to be, by it's very definition, non-commercial. This means that other than the cost of your radio, license, and ancilliary equipment, it should _NOT_ cost you one red cent to make a contact! NONE! NADA! When you tie your radio into the internet, SOMEBODY has to pay for that connection, and then your transmission becomes a "for profit" communication. You may not be profiting from it, but your ISP is. And YOU are facilitating it by connecting your radio to the internet! This makes you an accomplice after the fact (in legal terms). Can anyone say "pecuniary interest"?
so your saying that an auto-patch should be illegal? since a phone line does cost someone something you know?

man every time somone brings up something on this website i am completely and totally amazed at how some of you people fear change... guess what, things move on... digital and data over radio is still radio, it gets turned into radio waves no matter whats going over it, so thats a stupid argument...
I don't think he means just autopatch -- I think he means repeaters in general. #After all, every time you cause a repeater to transmit, it runs up the electric bill a little bit for the repeater operator. # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I'm not so amazed that people fear change, because that is a natural human response. #(That is, if you get a large group of people, you should expect some portion of them to fear change; I suspect that those are the people least able to deal with changes, but I don't really know how to test that hypothesis.)

What I'm amazed about is the number of really silly arguments (like this one) that people come up with to support their positions. #How do you get here from #97.113(a)(3)?

b.t.w. #Has anybody figured out what you DO with D-STAR or APCO25? #What I've gathered so far:

D-STAR radio
- call a radio by call sign, similar to DSC in marine bands
- data packets, but not AX25
- voice over the data packet channel, rather than analog

APCO25
- ? ? ? #I saw a bunch about what kind of modulation it uses to send bits, but if there was useful information there, it was buried in the details
APCO Project 25 digital is for digital trunking systems, it can be used in simplex and with a traditional repeater that can pass P25 digital and that would work like regular FM, just digital... at least thats what i have gathered from my local M/A-Com nut...

[AC7KZ]

Sure it's good, but you'll have to talk some of your friends into buying one of the rigs. Around here I have a hard enough time as it is trying to strike up a conversation on the local repeaters.

[W7NWH]

Icom America just put up a short 4 min video on D-Star from a team in Texas is working with it. The video was shot in Dayton and talks about applications and hardware.

the video can be viewed as a windows media file.

D-STAR Introduction

Introduction to D-STAR
4 minutes, 26 seconds

http://www.icomamerica.com/amataur/video

D-Star is cool because it's talks native IP data. Opens up a entire world of data sharing, traffic handling and mass data transmission.

It can run independent of net connections and provide line of sight connections to 50 miles based on HAAT.

Like it or not.. IP and Ham Radio are here to stay.. thank goodness.. It gives young people a place to hang a hat on... just check out the new distance records set on 802.11 b by HAMS!

John http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[W7NWH]

Icom D-star Video URL correction -

http://www.icomamerica.com/amateur/video/

[AE4TM]

Unlike Pactor that can be used either with or without HF relay stations to pass traffic, Pactor can work to -18dB below the S/N threshold passing traffic between two HF digital stations. In a world emergency where intermediate relays can fail, Pactor is by far the best HF mode ever developed because it approaches the theoretical limits of data transmission and it does not require intermediate HF relays! Here are some unbiased data showing actual field measurements comparing selected digital modes as an effective symbol rate vs station separation on daytime 80meters. How does D-STAR fit onto this plot?

http://ecjones.org/_uimages/Baud_dist.gif

Ed AE4TM (http://ecjones.org/pactor.html)

[w3mz]

Quote[/b] (VE7TKO @ Aug. 25 2005,19:41)]D-STAR is probably the greatest advancement ever seen in ham radio to date.
I think probably the Audion was bigger. And modulation, then AM, then FM, SSB was a biggie too. Direct Conversion, Transistors, ICs, etc. etc. These were advancements in Ham Radio because they i