Tradition

[af2cw]

Tradition, what does that word mean? #Yeah, yeah, we all have our own idea of what it means. #

Here are a few real definitions:

1) The passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation,
# # especially by oral communication

2) A time-honored practice or set of such practices.

3) a specific practice of long standing

Today there are many in the Amateur Radio community that want the tradition of Amateur Radio changed. #
Some even laugh about the tradition of Amateur Radio, stating it does not fit in with their idea of the 21st Century. According to some, tradition is for old folks, those people that sit around and gripe about every little
thing that the newer, younger, people want. #Don't these people see, that tradition is an important part of
Amateur Radio and is something to be proud of? #Something that should be upheld?

Why does it seem that if a tradition does not suit someone's needs or point of view it must be changed? #
I'm not trying to pick on anyone for having a particular point of view. What good does that serve? #I am asking, why is it that if you want something bad enough you want the rules to change just so you can have it? #

Here are two more definitions of tradition:

1) A mode of thought or behavior followed by a people continuously from generation to generation; a custom or usage.

2) A set of such customs and usages viewed as a coherent body of precedents influencing the present

Some say that the time has come for a change in tradition, and that we need to move into the 21st Century. #They say,"...let's forget about the past. Who really cares about it right? #Look to the present, the future. Those that sit on their duffs and gripe about how things are going down hill will be dead soon anyway right?" #Wait a minute. #I see a number of people say, there is a need for more people willing to Elmer the new people of Amateur Radio. #Now, let me get this straight. There are some aspects of tradition that need to be tossed into the circular file and burned with the trash, but other parts MUST be kept alive? #So now it boils down to pick and choose what parts of tradition one wants to keep? NOW I get it! #Going along with this line of logic, those people that are better suited to be Elmers are those tired old, hurry up and die OT's that have a wealth of knowledge just waiting to be imparted on to someone? But we don't want them teaching us about things we don't want to know. #Just the areas that suit our needs now, right?

What makes one think, that these old goats are going to want to share their knowledge with you? #Why in heavens name should they? After all this is the 21st Century. #Everything that's worth knowing is on the Internet right? RIGHT?? #Of course it is. #So why ask questions about things that are on the Internet? #You know how to fire up that search engine and type in exactly what you're looking for to find the exact answer right? Sure you do. #So, let's toss out Elmering since it is an obsolete thing, and part of a tradition, right? There ya go, now, what's next to toss out with the trash?

Yes, you can all say that this is about the code vs no-code issue and guess what? #You'd be right on target. #Am I totally ticked off about the removal of the Morse code test requirement? #Yes I am. Do I hate all those that will come along after the requirement is removed and becomes part of the rules? No I don't. # I knew you'd ask that question. Do I hate those that will benefit from its removal now? #No, I don't hate #them, but I feel sorry for them. #These are the people that wish to kill the tradition of Amateur #Radio. These are the ones that, in my opinion, want the old geezers to shove off and make way for the new and improved operators. #Has anyone said they were the new and improved operators? No, at least not to my knowledge. #However it has been implied. #Yet these are the same people that post here, telling the "seasoned" operators to pound salt, that they "..know not what they talk about", and later ask questions concerning the very things they should already know. Then they pitch a fit that it is the old guys that "refuse" to give them the answers. #Now, what did I miss there?

The purpose of all of this is that, tradition is what keeps this hobby, service, fraternity, glorified canoe club, or whatever you wish to call it, together. #Toss it out with the trash, and it means nothing. #Pride in accomplishment will become non-existent because everyone can do it without breaking a sweat. #If that's the 21st Century or the new and improved Amateur Radio service, then in my opinion, it doesn't look too good to me.

Sure those guys that glow in the dark are cranky. #Yep, they give the newbies a pain in their side (or other places of the anatomy). #But you know something, maybe, just maybe, they're doing it to preserve what is left of the tradition of Amateur radio. #Maybe, they're doing it, in their own way, to teach the newer people to read, research and learn. #Personally, I've been in the pool of qualified operators for a short time, and I've enjoyed every step I've taken to get where I am today.

I have a long way to go to get where a lot of people are. #I'll keep plodding along, keeping my ears and my eyes open. #Heaven knows how many things I let the magic smoke out of before I get things right. #But I'll keep learning. #I'll ask these old timers a few questions when I feel I'm up against a wall. But at least I can tell them what I've done and how I came to my conclusions before I ask the questions. #Then with a gentle touch of the cattle prod, they will get me looking in the right direction to continue my learning process.

That is tradition. #You may agree or disagree with my statements here. #I expect that. #However, before you rip me apart I ask you to do one thing. #Sit back, think about the iraditions of Amateur Radio. Its past, its current position, and what many say should be the future.

[W9GRN]

I feel your pain. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif Some things in life are better off left unchanged.FISTS #8794

[W4STP]

There are some things that should never be changed ie
The code! It should be retained for Amateur Extra!
If they want it bad enough God forbid They might be forced to break open a book or worse yet pound a little brass and earn it the hard way! oh yea the gimmie generation is going to squalk about it! I say to them
Cowboy-up!!! Learn,Earn,Enjoy!!

[WA2ZDY]

Tradition? This is the USA, the epitome of the throw-away society. Our traditions were thrown away long ago.

I feel your pain Rich, but alas, I doubt there's much to be done about it.

[W6SN]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but traditions DO change over time. Things in ham radio which were tradition have changed with the times and technology.

[af2cw]

The bursting of the bubble will be when the "old"
tradition is tossed out for the "new" tradition, for those
that want the change. When they see the cost of said
change. No, I am not making threats, just stating an
opinion.

And not ALL traditions change. Ask any member of the
military. I know, apples and oranges to some. Like
traditions, the definitions change to suit the needs of
others.

[W5MJL]

Traditions ARE traditions for only one reason. THEY ARE IMPORTANT to the people in the group which have them. When you remove traditions, you remove your roots. You remove your history. You remove your being. You remove your pride.

[W6SN]

Even some military traditions have changed over time...

I'm not saying we should discard old traditions, just that some have changed in the past, and some will change in the future.

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (W6SN @ Aug. 29 2005,12:16)]Even some military traditions have changed over time...

I'm not saying we should discard old traditions, just that some have changed in the past, and some will change in the future.
That is, though, precisely what is being done. Forgetting old traditions in the interest of establishing new ones. Just for one example, the current trend to try to establish "10-4" as a ham radio tradition. The price of switching to CB lingo, is the loss of ham lingo. And ham radio is just as entitled to its traditions as CB is to its own. Yet a great many of the CB migrants to ham radio do not believe in that right of ham radio to retain its flavor. They come to change, not to join.

Not only the CB migrants, but the ones who graduated from high school and can't even *spell* school! They didn't learn there, and they won't learn here. They wanted their school promotion given to them, and they got it, so why can't we give them ham radio as well? On this forum and others, I have read comments by people who not only can't spell, but are proud of that fact! They say they couldn't learn. "Couldn't." "Can't." Does that mean, as I think it does, that the human animal is now de-evolving? That each generation is less capable than the last? It certainly appears so. Earlier generations knew math, could spell, could write a check, or put together a coherent sentence. All of those skills have declined in recent years. Not just with a small minority of students, but a sizable portion of them.

Maybe, though, that is only a symptom of a deeper problem. That problem is that we, for some reason, feel everyone in this nation should be into everything. If not by interest, then by legislation. If they don't have the interest to do something, because it requires effort, then let's legislate away the effort, and maybe they'll join. Why can't we accept, maybe they don't want to join? But if we make it mediocre enough, well, they'll probably give it a try. With only a minimal of interest, or pretty much none at all, they won't stay with it, or will try to change it to something unrecognizable.

We have this unexplained drive in us that says everyone should be a ham. And we must rewrite the rules so that becomes not only possible, but likely. It's a bit like handing out college degrees in meteorology to everyone, whether they want to know what a cloud looks like or not. We don't care; recruit 'em. If they don't want to take the courses, make the courses shorter, easier, simpler. Gotta make those weather forecasters. Everyone should be one.

Sadly, it is too late for ham radio. It is almost certain, though, that this drive is going to cover other endeavors as well. When everything has lost its challenge, everyone will be in it. And, as is happening in ham radio, everyone will be a "expert beginner."

Most military traditions changed primarily because of "civil rights." Ah, you can't discipline that soldier. You can't make him to 50 pushups. That's unfair. You can't send him to KP (heck, I bet no-one out there knows what KP is, huh? Or was.) as that's not equal treatment. You can't make him stand latrine guard. Not fair. You can't tell him to cut his hair, or clean his uniform, or shine his shoes. You can't order him to say "Yes sir" or "No, sir." He's as equal as you, as doesn't have to say "sir." He doesn't have to show you - or your rank - any respect.

Of course, career military people, including those volunteering today, don't see it that way, fortunately. But the traditions of the military have indeed changed.

And so it goes. All downhill?

Ed

[W6SN]

Yes, there are a good amount of people who are incapable of producing coherent statements on here. The problem is, I see such nonsense coming from both "youngin's" and "old farts". There are, of course, still those on both sides who can, indeed, speak clearly, but you saying that it's only the young generation who can not communicate is inaccurate.

Accepting 10-4 on the amateur bands does not mean we have to give up "ham lingo". The two are not mutually exclusive, and I don't see why you seem to think they are.

Jason

[KI6ABZ]

I'm curious: is the front page of QRZ the appropriate place for posts that belong on the Opinions forum?

Don't get me wrong, I think you have a good point. In fact, I read your post twice to make sure I understood everything you said.

I just wonder if maybe this shouldn't be a "news" item and instead should be "opinion".

[af2cw]

Ed your comments are right on target. Though I use
the military when discussing traditions, there are many
still that remember what it felt like to serve. Those that
go in now just for the education and not wanting to do
what they signed up for in the first place amaze me.

I remember when I went in, we were basically told,
forget your "rights", they are on the pier. Once you step
on board, you tail belongs to Uncle Sam, and what he
says goes.

However, now days, if people don't want to do
something for whatever reason, the rules HAVE TO
change. If that is tradition, then I guess I don't care for
it.

KP duty? We called it mess duty. Powdered eggs and
powdered milk, breakfast of champions http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[af2cw]

Quote[/b] (KI6ABZ @ Aug. 29 2005,15:48)]I'm curious: is the front page of QRZ the appropriate place for posts that belong on the Opinions forum?

Don't get me wrong, I think you have a good point. In fact, I read your post twice to make sure I understood everything you said.

I just wonder if maybe this shouldn't be a "news" item and instead should #be "opinion".
I left it up to the powers that be here. If they decided it
would have been best to post it elsewhere I would have been
happy to do so.

[N5GLR]

re: CB lingo on the ham bands ...

Ah yes, let's not forget the recently popular "thanks for the come-back" and "I'm destinated". Just a couple of examples of the stomach turning tid-bits heard more frequently on HF in recent years.

Some folks can't spell tradition .... or assemble and adult sentence.

Yep, the idea now is "get licensed and change" not "join and learn". There are very few of the latter these days.

N5GLR

[W6SN]

N5GLR:

It's the OF's I hear mostly, saying the "thanks for the come-back" and "I'm destinated", along with "pounding brass" (that just sounds silly... along the lines of "throwing pounds"). The same ones who bemoan the encroachment of "10-4" are the ones spewing all this drivel.

How does that work?

Jason

[KI6ABZ]

Quote[/b] (kg2hg @ Aug. 29 2005,12:52)]Quote[/b] (KI6ABZ @ Aug. 29 2005,15:48)]I'm curious: is the front page of QRZ the appropriate place for posts that belong on the Opinions forum?

Don't get me wrong, I think you have a good point. In fact, I read your post twice to make sure I understood everything you said.

I just wonder if maybe this shouldn't be a "news" item and instead should be "opinion".
I left it up to the powers that be here. If they decided it
would have been best to post it elsewhere I would have been
happy to do so.
Good point.

I withdraw my comment. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[G3SEA]

The only ' Constant ' IS change http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

KH6/G3SEA

[NY7Q]

w6sn, is in the land of fruits. he sounds like a fruit. obviously tradition is not in his way of life, as is most of the people in his area. without ham radio traditions, the radio service is totally doomed. Oh I know w6sn, you know it all alright, and it can't be in your lifetime, but it is true, without basic traditions of time, radio is doomed. much like kalifornia is right now. I know in your eyes I am just a old fart spouting off, but one thing is clear, I have more education, experience, and i believe in traditions, than you could ever dream of. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[kd6fyk]

Such optimism.
blah blah
military this,blah blah
i remember when,blah blah
CHANGE IS JUST CHANGE.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (W6SN @ Aug. 29 2005,13:40)]"pounding brass" (that just sounds silly... along the lines of "throwing pounds"). Jason
Jason, code keys are made of brass. #That is the reason for the phrase, and there is nothing silly about it. #It is quite accurate, because that is exactly what a good CW op does.

"Destinated?" That is silly, there is no such word.

[K4JF]

As for "10-4" that just sounds ignorant on ham bands. Also, the Feds have ordered police departments to stop using the 10 codes, so it will probably die out everywhere.

[wb6bnq]

Quote[/b] (N5GLR @ Aug. 29 2005,13:27)] "Some folks can't spell tradition .... or assemble and adult sentence."

Garry,

One of my pet peeves is the incorrect usage of “and” and “an.” # So, it should have read <span style='color:blue'>". . . or assemble an adult sentence."</span>

Even ED, W5HTW, has a few mistakes. #But with all the typing he did I will write it off as "TYPOS."

73....Bill....WB6BNQ

[ky1v]

Quote[/b] (N5GLR @ Aug. 29 2005,15:27)]re: #CB lingo on the ham bands ...

Ah yes, let's not forget the recently popular "thanks for the come-back" and "I'm destinated". #Just a couple of examples of the stomach turning tid-bits heard more frequently on HF in recent years.

Some folks can't spell tradition .... or assemble and adult sentence.

Yep, the idea now is "get licensed and change" not "join and learn". #There are very few of the latter these days.

N5GLR
The one that annoys me the most is "Contact!".

What the @#$%!

I DO NOT, let me repeat, DO NOT, WILL NOT and SHALL NOT answer anyone on the frequency saying "CONTACT!"

If you want to break into an existing QSO, simply say your call sign once between transmissions...then wait. I might be having an interesting QSO and not be particularly interested in giving you a radio check!

In case you haven't figured it out yet, the word amateur in Amateur Radio is NOT to be taken literally!

David ~ KY1V

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Aug. 29 2005,18:41)]As for "10-4" that just sounds ignorant on ham bands. Also, the Feds have ordered police departments to stop using the 10 codes, so it will probably die out everywhere.
Except on the "new ham bands."


BNG? Me? Typos? Wow, I cna't make tpyos. I'm the oen alwasy complainign abotu other peopel and there speling.

But thanks for the benefit of the doubt.

[k6faf]

Hi, you all out there,

this is the opinion of a person brought up in a country with a long and not always nice history and thus a lot of traditions developed out of good or not so good intentions.

1. Traditions do not create themselves, they are started through habits, attitudes of persons and agreements to do something the same way by a number of people.
2. Traditions are created by States agreeing on the same handling of Inter-State Relations thus creating ways how diplomacy works.
3. Traditions are created by people setting up a new way/club/institution/association/movement to express a joint definition of what they do, intend to do and expect to do in future.
4. There may be more entries for traditions not set up here.

This said, I would like to commence:

Once traditions are in place, there are these points to be viewed:

1. Evolution in industry, belief, attitudes work on the generational aspects, as each generation sees tradition and lives with it.
2. Evolution introduced by outside intruders like governments, institutions like universities by their output of scholars, the change in the mitlitary's view of the time, changes in the religions give each generation a different view of existing traditon.
3. Once there are traditions set in place and lived, it is still "The People" who decide how they want to live with this tradition; how they want to execute it.
Also, how it fits into their way of life and, not to forget, how it will affect their children.

So, as history tells us, there were traditions that were not followed through the generations; there were others that changed into a way of life...and there were others that simply vanished, no cause given.

Now, all this put together, means:

Traditions are not forever!
Traditions are lived by "The People" and thus, in their longevity, directly influenced by "The People"
Traditions are a good thing to give a basic connection to generations of "The People"
Traditions are subject to change, assimilation and adaption in suitable form..

Connecting tradition and its change in a singular aspect of a tradition (CW) in a very differentiated subject such as HAMRADIO to prognose the general demise and downfall of OUR HOBBY AND SERVICE to me simply seems far-fetched and used as a tool to promote a mode that has been out-traditioned by the highest authorities that govern and guide our Hobby/Service.

Of course I can feel the pain......, for me that mode was very important at the time im got into the hobby.
It was no longer important to me, as my vision in our hobby was elsewhere, introduced by my elmer; of course it is still important to others.

But to me it is not the downfall of the whole Hobby/Service if younger people are allowed in without it. May their reasons be what they are.

To me it is a sign that part of our tradition simply outlived itself and is now taken from major importance to an equal place with other related modes.

And last but not least:
I have the funny feeling that this thread will develop into another code/no-code bashing.
I am willing to talk about tradition, yeah, but not about the other subject; that has already been ground to powder by now.

73s to you all
Hans, k6faf, the voice from the desert.

[k6faf]

Before I go to bed and forget:

Traditions have survived simply because "The People " liked them, because they had a religious background, because they were fun to revive every year or simply, because they were a needed re-establishment of habits liked by "The People". Traditions forced upon an individual would ask for interpretations into ironicism, sarcasm or simple ridicule.
And some of those have survived, but by all means not the way they intended to be.

I rest my case

Hans, good night to you all out there

[W6SN]

Quote[/b] (NY7Q @ Aug. 29 2005,15:01)]w6sn, is in the land of fruits. he sounds like a fruit. obviously tradition is not in his way of life, as is most of the people in his area. without ham radio traditions, the radio service is totally doomed. Oh I know w6sn, you know it all alright, and it can't be in your lifetime, but it is true, without basic traditions of time, radio is doomed. much like kalifornia is right now. I know in your eyes I am just a old fart spouting off, but one thing is clear, I have more education, experience, and i believe in traditions, than you could ever dream of. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
How beautiful. You can't argue a point without insulting? Does calling me uneducated make you feel better about yourself? If it does, then by all means, please carry on, as I would not wish to be un-PC by stifling your self-esteem.

That being said, yes, you may well be more experienced than I at life. That doesn't mean you are more educated or more intelligent, does it?

If it did, would not your post be a little clearer, and perhaps more grammatically correct?

Jason

[W6SN]

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Aug. 29 2005,18:37)]Quote[/b] (W6SN @ Aug. 29 2005,13:40)]"pounding brass" (that just sounds silly... along the lines of "throwing pounds"). Jason
Jason, code keys are made of brass. That is the reason for the phrase, and there is nothing silly about it. It is quite accurate, because that is exactly what a good CW op does.

"Destinated?" That is silly, there is no such word.
Just because it's accurate that you pound your fist against some brass to generate a modulated signal doesn't mean "pounding brass" doesn't sound silly.

Jason

PS, out of curiousity, I looked up "destinate" and saw it was a transitive verb, albeit obsoleted... so in actuality, the past form of it may be destinated... although it doesn't quite mean what hams imply http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

FWIW:
151 "Destinate" gcide "The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48"
Destinate \Des"ti*nate\, v. t.
To destine, design, or choose. [Obs.] "That name that God . .
. did destinate." --Udall.
[1913 Webster]

[w0tdh]

The FCC has sold out Ham Radio by backing BPL.
Now they are selling out the only thing that seperates the Hams from the Geeks.
The basic buliding blocks of becoming a Ham Radio Operator have not changed. Those wanting to become a "Ham" need to prove themselves. The most basic of the building blocks is CW. Proof that you can communicate when "All Else Fails" is what its all about. You can send "Code" with a rock on a wall, if need be.
Blink your eyes, blink a light....."Tell" someone what needs to told in times of emergencies/disasters when all power is out. " Communicate" when all other forms of communications fail.

This is what we are all about Ladies es Gentlemen.

Our total worth to society is the ability to "Communicate"

CW is the most stable method of communications we will ever have.

The "I want it now" crowd may now leave the room.

I have had it with those who refuse to accept the resposibilty of learning the Code.

You don't have to like it!

Just demonstrate you can be of worth in time of need.

Yes, in my humble opinion, if you can not send es receive Code......you are not worth a plug nickle.

CB, FRS es the like are right up your alley.

By the way, Have you served your Country?

If not, just remember "Freedom is not free"

Tom - KØPJG

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (ky1v @ Aug. 29 2005,19:53)]The one that annoys me the most is "Contact!".

What the @#$%!

I DO NOT, let me repeat, DO NOT, WILL NOT and SHALL NOT answer anyone on the frequency saying "CONTACT!"
David ~ KY1V
"CONTACT!" is what you say when you are cranking a hand-cranked vintage aircraft. I know of no reason to say it on the air. You're right, David, I wouldn't answer either, although I have never heard that one.

One of my favorites is "QRZ?" when nobody is calling them. I have heard it on VHF and, of course, will not say anything unless I had been calling them.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (W6SN @ Aug. 30 2005,01:49)]Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Aug. 29 2005,18:37)]Quote[/b] (W6SN @ Aug. 29 2005,13:40)]"pounding brass" (that just sounds silly... along the lines of "throwing pounds"). Jason
Jason, code keys are made of brass. #That is the reason for the phrase, and there is nothing silly about it. #It is quite accurate, because that is exactly what a good CW op does.

"Destinated?" #That is silly, there is no such word.
Just because it's accurate that you pound your fist against some brass to generate a modulated signal doesn't mean "pounding brass" doesn't sound silly.

Jason

PS, out of curiousity, I looked up "destinate" and saw it was a transitive verb, albeit obsoleted... so in actuality, the past form of it may be destinated... although it doesn't quite mean what hams imply http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

FWIW:
151 "Destinate" gcide "The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48"
Destinate \Des"ti*nate\, v. t.
# To destine, design, or choose. [Obs.] "That name that God . .
# . did destinate." --Udall.
# [1913 Webster]
I stand corrected. There is such a word as "destinated", but of a completely different meaning than hams use. Thanks for the correction. I still won't use it and will choose to not hear it on the radio. :o)

As for "pounding brass", it still sounds OK to me and on a straight key is accurate. (Don't think of iambic paddles, think of a straight key being operated at 25-30 wpm!) However, just as "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", I will submit that "silly is in the ear of the beholder".

[N2MMM]

The term "Pounding Brass" comes from the railroad. Telegraphers were referred to as "Brass Pounders"

[N2MMM]

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Aug. 30 2005,06:43)]Quote[/b] (ky1v @ Aug. 29 2005,19:53)]The one that annoys me the most is "Contact!".

What the @#$%!

I DO NOT, let me repeat, DO NOT, WILL NOT and SHALL NOT answer anyone on the frequency saying "CONTACT!"
David ~ KY1V
"CONTACT!" is what you say when you are cranking a hand-cranked vintage aircraft. #I know of no reason to say it on the air. #You're right, David, I wouldn't answer either, although I have never heard that one.

One of my favorites is "QRZ?" when nobody is calling them. #I have heard it on VHF and, of course, will not say anything unless I had been calling them.
Back in the '70s, I knew someone who was active with REACT. CONTACT was used on the old REACT nets. I have not so much as listened to a CB in many years so I do not know if it is still used. Anyway, If someone said that on a frequency I was listening to, I would leave that frequency.

[W2CO]

Quote[/b] (kg2hg @ Aug. 23 2005,10:34)]Tradition, what does that word mean? #Yeah, yeah, we all have our own idea of what it means. #

Here are a few real definitions:

1) The passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation,
# # especially by oral communication

2) A time-honored practice or set of such practices.

3) a specific practice of long standing

Today there are many in the Amateur Radio community that want the tradition of Amateur Radio changed. #
Some even laugh about the tradition of Amateur Radio, stating it does not fit in with their idea of the 21st Century. According to some, tradition is for old folks, those people that sit around and gripe about every little
thing that the newer, younger, people want. #Don't these people see, that tradition is an important part of
Amateur Radio and is something to be proud of? #Something that should be upheld?

Why does it seem that if a tradition does not suit someone's needs or point of view it must be changed? #
I'm not trying to pick on anyone for having a particular point of view. What good does that serve? #I am asking, why is it that if you want something bad enough you want the rules to change just so you can have it? #

Here are two more definitions of tradition:

1) A mode of thought or behavior followed by a people continuously from generation to generation; a custom or usage.

2) A set of such customs and usages viewed as a coherent body of precedents influencing the present

Some say that the time has come for a change in tradition, and that we need to move into the 21st Century. #They say,"...let's forget about the past. Who really cares about it right? #Look to the present, the future. Those that sit on their duffs and gripe about how things are going down hill will be dead soon anyway right?" #Wait a minute. #I see a number of people say, there is a need for more people willing to Elmer the new people of Amateur Radio. #Now, let me get this straight. There are some aspects of tradition that need to be tossed into the circular file and burned with the trash, but other parts MUST be kept alive? #So now it boils down to pick and choose what parts of tradition one wants to keep? NOW I get it! #Going along with this line of logic, those people that are better suited to be Elmers are those tired old, hurry up and die OT's that have a wealth of knowledge just waiting to be imparted on to someone? But we don't want them teaching us about things we don't want to know. #Just the areas that suit our needs now, right?

What makes one think, that these old goats are going to want to share their knowledge with you? #Why in heavens name should they? After all this is the 21st Century. #Everything that's worth knowing is on the Internet right? RIGHT?? #Of course it is. #So why ask questions about things that are on the Internet? #You know how to fire up that search engine and type in exactly what you're looking for to find the exact answer right? Sure you do. #So, let's toss out Elmering since it is an obsolete thing, and part of a tradition, right? There ya go, now, what's next to toss out with the trash?

Yes, you can all say that this is about the code vs no-code issue and guess what? #You'd be right on target. #Am I totally ticked off about the removal of the Morse code test requirement? #Yes I am. Do I hate all those that will come along after the requirement is removed and becomes part of the rules? No I don't. # I knew you'd ask that question. Do I hate those that will benefit from its removal now? #No, I don't hate #them, but I feel sorry for them. #These are the people that wish to kill the tradition of Amateur #Radio. These are the ones that, in my opinion, want the old geezers to shove off and make way for the new and improved operators. #Has anyone said they were the new and improved operators? No, at least not to my knowledge. #However it has been implied. #Yet these are the same people that post here, telling the "seasoned" operators to pound salt, that they "..know not what they talk about", and later ask questions concerning the very things they should already know. Then they pitch a fit that it is the old guys that "refuse" to give them the answers. #Now, what did I miss there?

The purpose of all of this is that, tradition is what keeps this hobby, service, fraternity, glorified canoe club, or whatever you wish to call it, together. #Toss it out with the trash, and it means nothing. #Pride in accomplishment will become non-existent because everyone can do it without breaking a sweat. #If that's the 21st Century or the new and improved Amateur Radio service, then in my opinion, it doesn't look too good to me.

Sure those guys that glow in the dark are cranky. #Yep, they give the newbies a pain in their side (or other places of the anatomy). #But you know something, maybe, just maybe, they're doing it to preserve what is left of the tradition of Amateur radio. #Maybe, they're doing it, in their own way, to teach the newer people to read, research and learn. #Personally, I've been in the pool of qualified operators for a short time, and I've enjoyed every step I've taken to get where I am today.

I have a long way to go to get where a lot of people are. #I'll keep plodding along, keeping my ears and my eyes open. #Heaven knows how many things I let the magic smoke out of before I get things right. #But I'll keep learning. #I'll ask these old timers a few questions when I feel I'm up against a wall. But at least I can tell them what I've done and how I came to my conclusions before I ask the questions. #Then with a gentle touch of the cattle prod, they will get me looking in the right direction to continue my learning process.

That is tradition. #You may agree or disagree with my statements here. #I expect that. #However, before you rip me apart I ask you to do one thing. #Sit back, think about the iraditions of Amateur Radio. Its past, its current position, and what many say should be the future.
I couldn't agree more. But the fact is that mostly the younger people of today especially are lazy and have been brought up with a lack of discipline which is showing big time. This I believe to be the direct result of todays and yesterdays dumbing down of the public school system, I did not say private schools only public schools are in such a wreck now a days, which is where 98% of these dimwits come from. Why they don't even give homework anymore and when the kid is real bad they just suspend him/her for a couple of weeks. Then they come back as if nothing ever happened. Well in Ham radio this mentality is growing in exponential numbers and I know these are the ones who are pushing for this crap. As I've said before "You can ruin the phone bands for all I care but if you want to be in the Extra CW bands, you need to be competent in the art or else you're not there at all." Tell you the truth I have Elmered more than two new hams into the hobby each time I've upgraded myself and you know I have seen the slow but sure attitude changes come about (product of above) and I think I'm done. The last kid who I tried to help recently has just repeatedly backstabbed everyone (3 other elmers) #who tried to help him and after all this he is still incompetent as heck, and just says "its ok I will just wait for the no code license to get on hf". I'm done. Just stay out of the Extra CW bands is all I ask.

[KD5NCO]

Real pity that all this crapolla about TRADITION has absolutely nothing to do with the original posters fear; The elimination of the current Element 1 test to "receive by ear, International Morse Code at 5 wpm". will destroy the ARS. (I get is inference from all of his postings in all of the topic threads relating to the NPRM and code-no-code debates). #

Sorry OM, but this is another "dog that won't hunt" in your attempt to come up with any reason why eliminating the Element 1 Test is a bad idea and the FCC #should be made to see the light (or error in their judgment).

Element 1 testing historically, has a very short span within the overall body of all so called Amateur radio Traditions.

The reasons for Element 1 testing are not grounded in any past TRADITION.

The test was demanded by the military (Navy in fact) to ensure radio ops had the capacity to understand a common code so they could be told (over the air) to cease interfering with ongoing military operations or maritime rescues.

That need ceased to exist YEARS ago. The world is just now acknowledging there is no longer a compelling need for ALL Amateur Radio operators, using HF frequencies, to have this skill.

All the morphing of the Element 1 Test for the last 40 years were simple tweaks within the LAW that INTERNATIONALLY required the test. None of the changes then were due to TRADITION but rather logical realignments to accommodate a changing American ARS license structure, and still comply with an International Treaty.

In 2003 (20 years late in my opinion) the last barrier to the USA removing a limitation for access to HF frequencies by Amateur radio operators was lifted by the ITU.

That act did not break any TRADITION because none existed. What existed was a Internationally agreed to law required by an international body that the USA is a participating treaty signatory.

What many of our staunch PRO Element 1 Test proponents fail to grasp, is that the International Body known as the ITU finally accepted the fact that for the last 50 years the ARS has demonstrated enough Skill, Restraint, and Ability to be trusted to use the alloted HF frequencies with less rules and intervention from Government(s).

Be proud and rejoice! How damned often do you see a law repealed that give back rights, power, and self determination to the people?

I want to say this a second time for amplification;

The elimination of Element 1 testing removes no tradition because International Morse Code TESTING is NOT required for TRADITION #reasons. #

The use of the CW mode remains. The need to be proficient in International Morse code to effectively use that MODE remains. Nothing significant has changed to change these basic facts.

The TRADITION of an Amateur Radio Operator using an ancient, simple, and efficient Mode to communicate over great distances remains!

It is the RESPONSIBILITY of those that know the VALUE of this mode and method to promote it's continued use. To carry on the tradition so to speak.

It is not the RESPONSIBILITY of ALL Amateur Radio Operators to know, or be proficient in this mode and code.

Yes they may well be better, more capable, more well rounded for having the skill, but other then the LAW (that was repealed), there is no compelling requirement to be proficient in this skill to continue ALL the stated reasons for the ARS to exist in America.


The following words are from Ed W5HTW on Aug. 28

"Most military traditions changed primarily because of "civil rights." #Ah, you can't discipline that soldier. #That's unfair. #You can't send him to KP (heck, I bet no-one out there knows what KP is, huh? Or was.) #as that's not equal treatment. #You can't make him stand latrine guard. #Not fair. #You can't tell him to cut his hair, or clean his uniform, or shine his shoes. #You can't order him to say "Yes sir" or "No, sir." #He's as equal as you, as doesn't have to say "sir." #He doesn't have to show you - or your rank - any respect. #

Of course, career military people, including those volunteering today, don't see it that way, fortunately. But the traditions of the military have indeed changed. #

And so it goes. #All downhill? "

Sorry OM but as American born in 1955 to a soldier, and a draftee in 1973, and a 24 years career Enlisted man, and now a Department of the Army Civilian employee.

I have inside knowledge that can dispel a few of the myths you seem to have accepted as fact about the new (30 years of tradition new) all volunteer Army.

Yes sir we been integrated a long time now and we have not had a compulsory service (draftee) new young soldier for a very long time. Shucks we even have 13% of the force as female volunteers. Some have died for the privilege to be an American service woman. (my wife retired as a Command Sergeants Major E-9 in 1998)

By the way OM, I assume you are OK with every Citizen in the USA having CIVIL RIGHTS, that are constitutionally guaranteed.

So let us reflect on your ideas and see if "tradition" is really part of the equation.

You said "Ah, you can't discipline that soldier."

Not sure what you mean I had hundreds of ways to discipline soldiers, what I lost was a ability to beat the crap out of a soldier and get away with it.

Yep, there went a tradition that needed to go.

You said "You can't make him to 50 push-ups." Yes we can, at the appropriate time and for the right reason.

Again another common sense tradition you would think, and a lot of you pro-coders fall for this one.

"I did it, so you have to." Or such non-sense as "MY drill sergeant made me do a bazillion push-ups and I am a better soldier because I really was a screw up and he set me straight."

Once you require VOLUNTEERS, you cease to have the ability to abuse them just for your own ego. They are free to get the idea that being screwed with for no other reason then "I had to do it so you do," is not a value they can appreciate and a measurable percentage will NO LONGER VOLUNTEER.

So, many of us old Sergeants had to learn and understand this dynamic. Then we had to get real, understand why we felt it was cool to make a newbie do a bazillion push-ups and come to terms that whatever small benefit we believed it promoted was actually a detriment to the UNIT, COMPANY, ARMY, because snuffy did his two or three years and was out of here.

And he did NOT speak well of the ARMY to his family and friends. Recruitment was in the toilet from 1976-1986 while all of us OLD sergeants wrestled with these changes to our "traditions".

I don't need to go through the rest of the list... I can counter every point W5HTW was trying to use.

It was once "tradition" to not have Blacks in the military
It was once "tradition" to not have Females in combat units
It was once "tradition" to pass a PT test before graduating Basic Training
It was once "tradition" to "wall to wall" counsel young soldiers (beat the crap out of them)
It was once a "tradition" to destroy a soldiers room if something was out of place

It was NEVER a TRADITION to pass a International Morse Code test to be an Amateur Radio Operator.

73 from KD5NCO AKA retired First Sergeant Fred C von Gortler IV

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (KD5NCO @ Aug. 30 2005,09:15)]Element 1 testing historically, has a very short span within the overall body of all so called Amateur radio Traditions.
Close to 100% of the life of the Amateur Radio Service is a "very short span"? Sorry, that dog won't hunt. That is rapidly approaching a century of span.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (KD5NCO @ Aug. 30 2005,09:15)]Sorry OM, but this is another "dog that won't hunt" in your attempt to come up with any reason why eliminating the Element 1 Test is a bad idea and the FCC #should be made to see the light (or error in their judgment).
73 from KD5NCO AKA retired First Sergeant Fred C von Gortler IV
Fred, there have been dozens of reasons given. While you and I may freely disagree with any or all of those reasons, and may even question the validity of some of them in a civilized discussion, we can not say "no reasons have been given". It just ain't true. Those reasons have been given in full belief and good faith. They should be countered, if such counter is possible, with sound reasoned disagreement. Not by denying they exist.

That is the only way to have a reasonable discussion of a very complex issue.

[ky1v]

Quote[/b] (KD5NCO @ Aug. 30 2005,11:15)]That need ceased to exist YEARS ago. The world is just now acknowledging there is no longer a compelling need for ALL Amateur Radio operators, using HF frequencies, to have this skill.


What many of our staunch PRO Element 1 Test proponents fail to grasp, is that the International Body known as the ITU finally accepted the fact that for the last 50 years the ARS has demonstrated enough Skill, Restraint, and Ability to be trusted to use the alloted HF frequencies with less rules and intervention from Government(s).

Be proud and rejoice! How damned often do you see a law repealed that give back rights, power, and self determination to the people?


It is not the RESPONSIBILITY of ALL Amateur Radio Operators to know, or be proficient in this mode and code.

Yes they may well be better, more capable, more well rounded for having the skill, but other then the LAW (that was repealed), there is no compelling requirement to be proficient in this skill to continue ALL the stated reasons for the ARS to exist in America.



You said "You can't make him to 50 push-ups." Yes we can, at the appropriate time and for the right reason.
Fred,

Now that you have finished your tirade, I would like to point out a few flaws in your thinking.

"What many of our staunch PRO Element 1 Test proponents fail to grasp, is that the International Body known as the ITU finally accepted the fact that for the last 50 years the ARS has demonstrated enough Skill, Restraint, and Ability to be trusted to use the allotted HF frequencies with less rules and intervention from Government(s)."

If spent any time at all operating HF, or listening, since that's all you are permitted to do, you would soon realize the following two facts:

A) In our country, since the FCC stopped monitoring and diligently enforcing Part 97 rules and regulations governing Amateur Radio, the number of people, whether licensed or not, actively breaking those rules has increased exponentially. Those committing infractions are becoming more and more blatant. If you need evidence to believe me, simple send me an email, I will provide my telephone number and at my expense, I will cite ten serious and blatant infractions I have encountered on 20 meters in the last month.

B) Elimination of Element 1 testing has nothing, let me repeat nothing, to do with the ITU's belief or disbelief that the ARS "has demonstrated enough Skill, Restraint, and Ability to be trusted to use the allotted HF frequencies with less rules and intervention from Government(s)."

Your next comment is even more absurd.

"Be proud and rejoice! How damned often do you see a law repealed that give back rights, power, and self determination to the people?"

The people, as you so call them, have always had the right and power to obtain an Amateur Radio license granting them permission to operate on HF frequencies. The only part of your statement that is relevant is that the ITU has eliminated the requirement of governments to require self determination. I am not proud of the fact that the ITU has basically told the world, we have so little respect for the integrity of the Amateur Radio Service, that we will now allow any scumbag on the planet to use those frequencies as they see fit, since we obviously have no self determination to enforce the rules.

You're getting smarter by the minute...

"It is not the RESPONSIBILITY of ALL Amateur Radio Operators to know, or be proficient in this mode and code."

You are so correct. It is only the responsibility of those wanting permission to transmit on HF frequencies.

When I started reading this next paragraph, I almost thought you were a genius!

"Yes they may well be better, more capable, more well rounded for having the skill, but other then the LAW (that was repealed), there is no compelling requirement to be proficient in this skill to continue ALL the stated reasons for the ARS to exist in America."

You bet, they are better, more capable, and better well rounded for having the skill but don't forget...the law has not been repealed in the United States. You are welcome to move if you like!

Now, I would like to address the issue of the military, since you seem so keen on professing your intimate knowledge of the "goings on" of abuse of power.

The underlying reason discipline is so vital to the military is not so some drill sergeant can have fun with recruits in boot camp, or embarrass them in front of others or be mean. As I am certain, or at least thought I was certain, you are aware, the reason is to train the recruits to have the discipline to follow orders without question. In a time of battle, the last thing I would want is for my partner to stand up and say, "But captain, there's women and children down there" just before they all pulled AK-47's out from under their sheets and mowed my platoon down like blades of grass.

Yes, I took the scenario from the movie Blackhawk down so everyone could relate!

So far, the Morse testing has done an excellent job of keeping out the majority of riff-raff. Case and point!

Have a nice day! See you on 6 meters!

David ~ KY1V

[KD5NCO]

K4JF I have to agree that I stroked with a very BROAD brush and did not intend to diminish the valiant efforts of some to explain all the good reasons why International Morse Code skills are a good thing.

In fact I agree with many of the arguments. I reject the arrogant statement that a Morse Code trained op is a BETTER op. Yes some are, but not ALL.

I agree that the skill, send and receive Morse Code, is a fundamental building block to testing of simple RF transmitters. I agree that CW and Morse Code are very efficient use of limited spectrum, many times the only usable mode, and certainly is a valuable tool for any one serious about emergency operations. I agree that the time devoted and dedication demonstrated in self learning the Code has merit and can be an indicator of a person with good character, drive, and ambition.

I do not think that CW use and Morse Code skilled operators are, bad, waste of time, not necessary, or old school dinosaurs.

I simply reject every argument made to date that relates to the testing for that skill to gain access to HF privileges.

In this case the TRADITION argument can't hold water because the requirement for a Element 1 TEST was NEVER imposed because the governing body at the time thought a test would help keep a TRADITION going.

Re-read my original note please. Then rethink your objection to my statement that the duration of Element 1 Testing is a very short span in the history of the ARS.

I know it is a subtle distinction but is goes to my argument about tradition... CW and the Code may well be very traditional and long lived, but the TEST certainly is NOT.

Retaining the Element 1 5wpm receive only TEST does not promote any ARS "tradition". Nor is dropping the TEST a threat to the current traditions of the service. IMO

Only the use of, promotion of, recruitment into, the CW/Morse Code inner circle of "enlightened ARS operators" will keep this TRADITION alive.

A true (or good) TRADITION self perpetuates because it serves some purpose, and causes no harm.

For many years now there are hundreds of examples where the tradition of HAZING has proved to be crass, harmful, counter productive, illegal, dangerous, and generally just a bad idea.

I am not suggesting that the Element 1 test rises to the level of these other traditions we have eschewed. But you are aware that a MAJORITY of the arguments in these 10,000 pages of code no-code debates revolves around the basic tenant that "I had to pass the test, so to be OK in MY eyes, you must endure the same pain". Fundamentally a hazing ritual from my perspective.

I predict that CW and International Morse Code will be alive and well long after my grandchildren have gone SK.

[nv7aa]

I do not see the argument that removing Element 1 to allow HF access will destroy the ARS. The ARRL was all for removing the code from the general upgrade anyway. You would still have to take the written tests for upgrade. If you would argue that removing the code requirement will allow "unsavory" characters in the ARS, then maybe we should do more monitoring on the HF nets by the good ol boys whose conversations many times are filled with racist and sexual tones. Does this promote tradition. I hope not. The code is good as gone as soon as the FCC announced what they wanted to do. The argument is moot at this point. For those who say that the written tests are a joke, well I have to disagree. You still need some level of knowledge to pass them. Times change as does technology. The ARS has also changed. Ever try to build your own radios using surface mounted technlogy. Almost impossible!

[KD5NCO]

David ~ KY1V said

A) In our country, since the FCC stopped monitoring and diligently enforcing Part 97 rules and regulations governing Amateur Radio, the number of people, whether licensed or not, actively breaking those rules has increased exponentially. Those committing infractions are becoming more and more blatant. If you need evidence to believe me, simple send me an email, I will provide my telephone number and at my expense, I will cite ten serious and blatant infractions I have encountered on 20 meters in the last month

So is it my "new guy" responsibility to skool you on your RESPONSIBILITY as a Licensed Amateur on the methods of gathering evidence and reporting the infractions to the proper authority?

I have evidence that suggests that the FCC does indeed act and enforce the rules. Do you know who the OO is in your area? Your ARRL section manager? Perhaps Riley Hollingsworths(sp?) contact info?

It is obviously a waste of time to point out to you that every citation you make about poor or illegal operation on HF in the 20, 40 and 75 meter bands is most likely caused by a 20, 13, 5 wpm code tested Amateur operator.

I do however reject your use of "exponential" regarding behavior on the HF bands... I have been on the planet 50 years and listened in (to HF) ever since 1965. Yes there is a lot more "in your face" "screw you" type crap on some freqs. But it seems to me more a result of poor restraint or discipline in the general population than anything to do with incentive licensing, question pools, or Element 1 testing.

Excuse me sir, but here is where you and I have a problem...You said

Now, I would like to address the issue of the military, since you seem so keen on professing your intimate knowledge of the "goings on" of abuse of power.

The underlying reason discipline is so vital to the military is not so some drill sergeant can have fun with recruits in boot camp, or embarrass them in front of others or be mean. As I am certain, or at least thought I was certain, you are aware, the reason is to train the recruits to have the discipline to follow orders without question. In a time of battle, the last thing I would want is for my partner to stand up and say, "But captain, there's women and children down there" just before they all pulled AK-47's out from under their sheets and mowed my platoon down like blades of grass.

You sir, need not presume to skool me on discipline. I have the combat patches, led men in three armed conflicts, and never had to write the letter to a grieving mom or dad. (no, I was not back in the rear area)

We have had an ALL VOLUNTEER army since March 1974 sir. To maintain recruitment some so called traditions had to be removed or modified. But we never lost the focus that discipline is fundamental. We just found new and better ways to instill discipline and esprit de corps.

Those young soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq right now are cut from the same pool of "dumbed down" America that we need to recruit new blood into the ARS from.

Attrition rate in service schools is lower now then ever in our 229 year history. Every measure of every skill set is higher now than when I was a young soldier.

Are You hearing me OM? #EVERY stat there is, is better! #Just why do you think that is?

IT is because the ARMY does a better job of making the new guy part of the FAMILY then the ARS ever will.

The Difference is simply ...we NEED the new guys and know it... in the ARMY. #

The same is true with the ARS, but you OM don't accept the truth of that notion, and you keep pissing on the backs of the new guys, just like you tried to do here in your post to me.

I need not respond to the rest of you opinions, others can determine for them selves if my take on it is any more or less relevant than yours.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (KD5NCO @ Aug. 30 2005,13:54)]Re-read my original note please. Then rethink your objection to my statement that the duration of Element 1 Testing is a very short span in the history of the ARS.

I know it is a subtle distinction but is goes to my argument about tradition... CW and the Code may well be very traditional and long lived, but the TEST certainly is NOT.
Thanks for the comments. OK, I re-read the statement, and I still maintain that testing for Morse Code proficiency has been going on for a very, very long time. Many decades longer than I have been a ham and I'm a QCWA member! The test has been here a long time. The speed required has changed several times, but the test has been here much longer than a "short span".

I took 3 tests at 2 speeds, the first one at 5wpm for my novice (so 5 wpm has been here over 30 years by my personal knowledge). Second, I took the 20 at an FCC office and missed it by one character, so he passed me off on 13 for my General (saying "I know you know it, you're just obviously nervous"), and then, lastly at only 20 wpm for my Extra. - - All of which is irrelevant for the discussion, except to illustrate changing speeds on a consistant code exam. :o)

[KD5NCO]

Mr. FORRESTER sir, AKA K4JF

Is it really necessary for me to quote the entire history of the ARS in all it's various forms and then post the exact date the testing of Morse code became a requirement to gain an FCC Amateur Radio Operator License? Would it interest you to know exactly who in the Department of the Navy demanded the skill be tested? Or in what year that demand was made. Or the history of the FCC and it's predecessor organization? All these are historical facts that can be researched and learned. Surprising to me that we carp about ruining a tradition but no one can describe accurately the history that might support any notion of it's ancient roots.

On the other hand I can see your point and perspective and will agree that sometimes the mere duration of a requirement can seem to have taken on the aspects of a tradition.

However sir, we do not require a BAR exam out of tradition. Med students are not required to intern out of tradition. Soldiers do not qualify with the rifle out of tradition. In each case there is a compelling requirement for those skill to be proved.

In the case of Element 1 testing the requirement that started the testing has been removed, twice. (that should get some folks thinking).

You may not defend that which you do not fully understand. And that is precisely why all the arguments years ago resulted in the FCC saying:

Quote from the FCC

"The amateur service is one of the radio communication services authorized by the Radio Regulations and was one of the first non-government communication services. Regulation of the amateur service in the United States dates from the early 1900's as a result of the U.S. Navy's concern about interference to its stations and its desire to be able to order amateur radio stations off the air in the event of war. #As part of this regulation, proficiency in Morse code was mandated to ensure that amateur radio operators could recognize and avoid interference with government and commercial stations as well as maritime distress messages, and to ensure that the U.S. Navy could communicate government orders to amateur radio operators. This mandated telegraphy proficiency was continued by the Federal Radio Commission and then by the Federal Communications Commission. Telegraphy proficiency remains one of the examination elements that, by international treaty, an examinee must pass to obtain an amateur service operator license that authorizes operating privileges in the portion of the radio spectrum below 30 MHz.

Background. In the early days of radio, communication by radiotelegraphy was the primary means used to exchange messages between radio operators at all radio stations, including amateur radio stations. Proficiency in telegraphy using the Morse code was mandated to ensure that operators of amateur radio stations would not cause interference to Government and commercial stations and that amateur radio stations would be able to stay clear of maritime distress messages.

Decision. We have considered the comments on this issue and conclude that the public interest will best be served by reducing the telegraphy examination requirement to the minimum requirement that we have found that meets the Radio Regulations and that has been accepted as proving that the control operator of a station can ensure the proper operation of that station."

These experts are from the 1998 reductions from 13/20 to 5WPM testing

You might read the entire record to decide how in the future you would like to state your position on retaining some form of code testing. This is a great place to learn about what won't work.

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Wireless/Orders/1999/fcc99412.txt

Respectfully

[kc0jez]

Hmmm...I'm curious when "tradition" came to mean doing something because you were forced to? Tradition, to me, is something you do because you *want* to, and because you choose to carry on that activity. e.g. putting up a Christmas tree, shooting off fireworks on 4th of July. Or maybe your family has a tradition of always making french toast on Sunday mornings, or traditionally Dad always carves the turkey on Thanksgiving. I don't consider a legal requirement to do something a "tradition". No one is trying to stop morse code from being a tradition. Near as I can tell you can continue to carry on your tradition forever, keep on using it, teach it to those who are interested. I don't expect my Jewish friends to put up a Christmas tree just because it's a tradition! Sorry to make this rather religious, but it seemed like a quick easy comparason. If your tradition will die because you stop forcing people to do it, it's not really a tradition to me! It's a sad day when we all start thinking traditions must be legally enforced!

[n1uq]

Fred - KD5NCO,

Thank you for some intelligent reasoning.

Wayne - WB1WMB
USASA 1970-76

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (KD5NCO @ Aug. 30 2005,20:10)]Mr. FORRESTER sir, AKA K4JF

Is it really necessary for me to quote the entire history of the ARS in all it's various forms and then post the exact date the testing of Morse code became a requirement to gain an FCC Amateur Radio Operator License? Would it interest you to know exactly who in the Department of the Navy demanded the skill be tested? Or in what year that demand was made.
Actually, I could look those up, and have read them all at some point, I am sure. My point was simply that one cannot say that code testing has had a short life or that it is recent. That is quite simply not the case. It has been there for the most part of a century, and the sources you reference will confirm that. That is all I was saying.

As far as "tradition" being a reason to keep it? I do not believe that to be the case, and have never stated such. My position is well represented on these pages, and has never included "tradition" as a reason to advocate removal of CW from Novice and General licenses, and establishment of 15 wpm for Extra. How could it? "Tradition" is not a reason for me to advocate reinstatement of Novice license and folding Technician into General. How could it?

So nobody needs to lecture me on "Tradition". There are many traditions in Amateur Radio that need to be retained and strengthened. CW is not one of them. What traditions we do need to rebuild include the ham camaradie (sp?), the tradition of Elmering, the tradition of courtesy on the air, the tradition of community service, the tradition of experimentation and sharing of expertise, and quite a few more.

[W0LC]

I think some of the points trying to be made is that code tests have been in the element passing criteria for decades and it hasn't hampered anyone in obtaining a license or upgrading. In fact, some polls not long ago suggested overwhelming support to retain such testing. A simple CW test is the only means (currently) to determine if a licensed or potentially licensed op understands basic CW elements. Removing the testing removes any incentive (pro or con) to learn it and reduces the overal capability of the radio op's ability.

Reasoning that the Feds came up with is a parroting of the IARU stance which need not me this country's stance.

Also, in reasoning in a similar manner, why have any technical elements on the tests when over 95% of the equipment available today is COTS (commercial off the shelf) that requires no real adjustments, modifications, tuning, etc. Why not issue an operator's license based upon a a fee only and not worry about technical ability?

I think many individuals are concerned that is where amateur radio is heading.

Amateur Radio, afteral, was to augment the government and the public community during times of national emergency. We continue to do that today, but do we actually need "technical" experts to operate a PTT mic with radio on generator power? FEMA does it without an amateur license, public service organizations likewise.

Ours is a hobby, but is expected to support the public and the country in times of emergency.

As such, providing an operator's license would greatly benefit the community as more operators would be available. Anyone can "drive" an electronic device these days with a cheat sheet if even that.

Removing the CW element from the testing criteria altogether, not even having an endorsement offered to me is a mistake. THen again, if you have ever used CW, you would understand its great value and service it provided.

[W5HTW]

HAM has many traditions, some of them dating all the way back to even the mid and late 1990s. HAM is plumb full of traditions. New old traditions are being formed even as we speak, and in three years will be looked back upon as more long-standing HAM traditions. Many HAM traditions were formed in the very beginning of HAM back in 1991. Thousands of old timers from that period in HAM have maintained those traditions with religious zeal. HAM has a long standing record of preserving those traditions that have stood the test of a decade and have continued to grow. HAM has been a long lasting fraternity of "hamsters" who have kep the hamster spirit alive for more than a whole decade. There should be no fear HAM will lose its traditions anytime soon, and certainly will acquire more of them as HAM becomes ever more challenging and professional.

10-4?

[W2CO]

KD5NCO wrote:
"Retaining the Element 1 5wpm receive only TEST does not promote any ARS "tradition". Nor is dropping the TEST a threat to the current traditions of the service. "

This is where you are dead wrong. By dropping the code test and allowing all the nitwits who couldn't even learn the letter A onto the HF bands you are asking for the sure demise of HF as we know it. Sure I respect your experiences in the military (I was in the Navy during the Vietnam War) but that has little to nothing to do with this issue. I can give a comparison, lets say in the Army they again allow highschool dropouts to enlist as they did in the early 70's. Now granted the militery will not let them ruin it for everyone else who respects rules and discipline, but do you really think all those dropouts who are now flooding into the military will be useful and contributative individuals? The same thing goes here in the ARS. When we remove that simple test (5WPM is NOVICE level) it will open the door to every cber there is who can halfway read and memorize answers. Now do you want that caliber of person in the ARS? It's up to people like you to decide and if you want that then so be it, but don't complain to us OT's when the Sxxt hits the fan and all Hxxl breaks loose on the hf bands. Remember it's people like you with your comments etc. who are doing this to the ARS. Don't fix it if it aint broke. Oops too late.

[W2CO]

K4JF wrote:
"So nobody needs to lecture me on "Tradition". #There are many traditions in Amateur Radio that need to be retained and strengthened. #CW is not one of them. #What traditions we do need to rebuild include the ham camaradie (sp?), the tradition of Elmering, the tradition of courtesy on the air, the tradition of community service, the tradition of experimentation and sharing of expertise, and quite a few more. "

What do you mean CW is not one of them???
That is the most rediculous statement yet. It all starts with CW man.
A ham operator who doesn't know CW is a CBer period.

[W6SN]

Quote[/b] (W2CO @ Aug. 31 2005,09:48)]It's up to people like you to decide and if you want that then so be it, but don't complain to us OT's when the Sxxt hits the fan and all Hxxl breaks loose on the hf bands. Remember it's people like you with your comments etc. who are doing this to the ARS. Don't fix it if it aint broke. Oops too late.
Interesting he can't use those two words on here, but when he's down on 75 he probably uses them profusely.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (W2CO @ Aug. 31 2005,09:50)]K4JF wrote:
"So nobody needs to lecture me on "Tradition". #There are many traditions in Amateur Radio that need to be retained and strengthened. #CW is not one of them. #What traditions we do need to rebuild include the ham camaradie (sp?), the tradition of Elmering, the tradition of courtesy on the air, the tradition of community service, the tradition of experimentation and sharing of expertise, and quite a few more. "

What do you mean CW is not one of them???
That is the most rediculous statement yet. It all starts with CW man.
A ham operator who doesn't know CW is a CBer period.
Ok, I should have been clearer. #CW operation is certainly a tradition, and a tie that had bound together hams for decades (and it didn't start in 1991 as a poster stated above! #It is much older than that). #What I meant to say is that CW testing is not necessarily a tradition that we must keep. #The use of CW is something we desperately need to keep, and as many of the anti-code types are not anti-testing, but anti-code, I will continue to fight against the elimination of CW.

As a VE, I have tested many people both with and without CW as part of the test (I am usually the one doing the CW testing). #I have yet to find any difference between them in on-the-air behavior, so I cannot agree with the statement that "without CW it's just CB".

It has much more to do with the attitude of the new person, whether he/she will admit to not knowing it all yet (as opposed to some posting on QRZ.com), and whether he/she has had a good Elmer. #Those factors apply to all license classes.

As for the elimination of code from the bands, some on here are denying that anyone is calling for that, but it is very clear that many have done exactly that. #There are people loudly proclaiming that elimination of CW (not just testing) is the goal, and there are many more who are using a back door approach, claiming they are not against CW, but advocating that the narrow CW spectrum be squeezed even further. #They use the argument that CW is allowed on all the frequencies, but ignore the FACT that it is not used except in small areas, and cannot be compressed even more.

It should be noted at this point that there are, right now, areas in our Gulf Coast where low power HF CW is the only, repeat only means of communications in the hurricane-stricken area. Forget cell phones, they are the first to go. Forget trunked VHF/UHF networks, they went next. Forget landline phone, they went with the power. Forget internet, that went out somewhere in the confusion from the above!

[ab9lz]

As a newcomer, I see a big difference between the CW folks and the phone guys. With CW, it's about the art of communication, making contacts, DX, brief technical exchanges, and a few plesantries. Homebuilt gear and QRP are other challenges that the CW crowd tend to gravitate toward, again for the art of it. Tho I can use phone, I typically don't, the spirit of things in that space is different, it seems to be more about trivial chat and keeping connected with firends (I find the internet is better for those modes of commuication anyway). It would be a shame to lose an essential, and thriving, element of the hobby. *When* the code requirement is dropped, few newbies will be compelled to try it, leaving CW to die out with the population that currently use it.

[W2CO]

Quote[/b] (W6SN @ Aug. 31 2005,06:33)]Quote[/b] (W2CO @ Aug. 31 2005,09:48)]It's up to people like you to decide and if you want that then so be it, but don't complain to us OT's when the Sxxt hits the fan and all Hxxl breaks loose on the hf bands. Remember it's people like you with your comments etc. who are doing this to the ARS. Don't fix it if it aint broke. Oops too late.
Interesting he can't use those two words on here, but when he's down on 75 he probably uses them profusely.
Sorry OM wrong, my mic is collecting dust has been for the past 20 years. CW ONLY here and always will be.

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (W6SN @ Aug. 31 2005,12:33)]Quote[/b] (W2CO @ Aug. 31 2005,09:48)]It's up to people like you to decide and if you want that then so be it, but don't complain to us OT's when the Sxxt hits the fan and all Hxxl breaks loose on the hf bands. Remember it's people like you with your comments etc. who are doing this to the ARS. Don't fix it if it aint broke. Oops too late.
Interesting he can't use those two words on here, but when he's down on 75 he probably uses them profusely.
You know that from experience?

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (KC9HVN @ Aug. 31 2005,14:22)]As a newcomer, I see a big difference between the CW folks and the phone guys. With CW, it's about the art of communication, making contacts, DX, brief technical exchanges, and a few plesantries. Homebuilt gear and QRP are other challenges that the CW crowd tend to gravitate toward, again for the art of it. Tho I can use phone, I typically don't, the spirit of things in that space is different, it seems to be more about trivial chat and keeping connected with firends (I find the internet is better for those modes of commuication anyway). It would be a shame to lose an essential, and thriving, element of the hobby. *When* the code requirement is dropped, few newbies will be compelled to try it, leaving CW to die out with the population that currently use it.
Interesting and insightful observations from a newcomer. Thanks and welcome aboard.

[W6SN]

Quote[/b] (W2CO @ Aug. 31 2005,09:50)]A ham operator who doesn't know CW is a CBer period.
What an arrogant, pig-headed, elitist attitude. I think you left your white hood in the other room, maybe you should go put it on so we don't know who you really are.

[W6SN]

Quote[/b] (W2CO @ Aug. 31 2005,14:24)]Quote[/b] (W6SN @ Aug. 31 2005,06:33)]Quote[/b] (W2CO @ Aug. 31 2005,09:48)]It's up to people like you to decide and if you want that then so be it, but don't complain to us OT's when the Sxxt hits the fan and all Hxxl breaks loose on the hf bands. Remember it's people like you with your comments etc. who are doing this to the ARS. Don't fix it if it aint broke. Oops too late.
Interesting he can't use those two words on here, but when he's down on 75 he probably uses them profusely.
Sorry OM wrong, my mic is collecting dust has been for the past 20 years. CW ONLY here and always will be.
You don't have to use phone to say it. Nine dits and a dah works just as well.

[W6SN]

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Aug. 31 2005,13:33)]As for the elimination of code from the bands, some on here are denying that anyone is calling for that, but it is very clear that many have done exactly that. There are people loudly proclaiming that elimination of CW (not just testing) is the goal, and there are many more who are using a back door approach, claiming they are not against CW, but advocating that the narrow CW spectrum be squeezed even further. They use the argument that CW is allowed on all the frequencies, but ignore the FACT that it is not used except in small areas, and cannot be compressed even more.
I don't see CW as having a "narrow" spectrum as it is. I personally don't think it should be squeezed tighter, but it actually has half of each HF band, does it not?

Jason

[KD5NCO]

First to Mr. Forrester aka K4JF, my humble apologies sir, before I spouted off so harshly I should have taken the time to research many of your posts. I think you and I are on the same plane in protecting the ARS and I know you are sincere in your well reasoned postings. My overly long and testy post (with your name leading in) was typed while I fumed about the crap David ~ KY1V tried to lay on me.

I think that my insistence that the code testing was not a very long standing part of the ARS is probably a matter of perspective. Because you have taken me to task twice, I must defer to you wisdom and perspective. I acknowledge that my perspective is only by looking up facts, not living and experiencing a vast spectrum of them. (relating to the ARS)

No I am not offering any backhanded false praise. I truly respect and admire many of the more seasoned ARS veterans. I also listen very well and almost all my current experience and knowledge of the ARS is from gentlemen 5 to 25 years older than I. Many licensed over 40 years. (I am 50, first licensed after Y2K).

Sorry I ticked you off, my fault entirely.

For the record I am not anywhere near the type of person anyone would consider calling lazy, dumb, or wanting something for nothing.

I am, stubborn and tenacious, always keep my eye on the ball, and totally mission oriented. Along the way, I learned "Mission First", PEOPLE ALWAYS!

The rest of you will have to wait while I compose a response and check my anger for a few.

[KD5NCO]

OK gents, time to get real. Mostly because this time I am not going to be ran off by a few grumpy old fearful men who have no ability to look at a problem with the intent to solve it. Yes I find many of your arguments full of crap and based on emotion and very little fact or substance.

Just a thoughts fellows, you are not arguing with some wet behind the ears youngster who has no life experience. I have plenty, and#in a LOT of very relevant and related fields.

I have taught Basic Electronics Training in one of the Army service schools. I have trained soldiers how to repair radios and avionics gear down to board and component level. I can pass any Advanced or Extra test from any year group in front of the FCC examiner with out any study right now this day. It's not bragging if you can do it. My Elmer gave me a TR4 set and guided me as I re-furbed it back to better than new. I also own a modest shack with Yaesu FT-920 and Icom 746Pro as my primary rigs.

I joined the ARS because I am a team oriented fellow and love being part of or leading teams. So Ham Radio is not just a hobby in my eyes

(I do not dispute that many see it that Way (as a hobby)and that they are free to treat the ARS that way. There is no compelling requirement to do any thing but rag chew or chase paper if one wants to)

I donate or loan equipment exclusively to soldiers.
I intend to be active teaching Amateur Radio in our local school or Scouts once I retire from my 60-80 hour a week government job. For now I contribute cash and equipment.

I am still fit enough that my major contributions to club efforts and other events are usually set up and heavy lift oriented and most of the time only use VHF to get instructions on where to be next.
I am comfortable starting at the bottom and working for my wings.

I fully expect someday to kick back and teach myself Morse code and enjoy the Traditional Mode simply for nostalgic reasons.

For now, I am way too busy and having much to much fun to expend the energy in a mode I have no interest in. Many of you have pointed out damned good reasons for CW and Morse code. OK I am sold on the Mode, just not the test. Element 1 Test Proves nothing. IMO. I intend some day to similarly sell it to the younger souls behind me. However for that to happen, there has to be a group of younger Amateurs to Elmer.

I believe that dropping Element 1 has the potential to get more folks in the door. I believe that once in the door many will stay if we treat them as adults and part of the family. (ah yes fellows, that means we have some responsibility)

I choose to have an optimistic view. I know there will be trouble makers and idiots. Gents, there are right now undesirables in the ARS! But I know they are NOT dominant, in fact they are very few, and there are ways to deal with them.

I totally reject the argument that Element 1 is any filter that proves a volunteer ARS member will turn out to be a clean, all American, rule following, stand up fine Amateur radio operator. #Hell fellows, there are #200 and ten thousand Politicians and Lawyers who studied real hard and took very tough tests and many of them are Idiots also! The world is full of bad people, idiots, scum, and they are in every fraternity and group you can name.

But here is the real crux you all seem to fail to grasp. ENTRY LEVEL TESTING is ALWAYS used to get people qualified at the minimum level necessary for ENTRY.

The VEC, NCI, ARRL, Thousands of YOUR PEERS, and the FCC all agree on this point and they all have written very good rejection reasonings to your past arguments.

There never ever was any ground swell of American young citizens that petitioned the FCC and asked for the bar to be lowered so they could get in. I doubt in the entire history of the ARS there have not been 20 petitions to the FCC by an unlicensed American citizen on any part of the FCC rules relating to Amateur radio.

Some grump above asked rhetorically if we need not just do away with any testing because we never need to know how to fix the modern equipment (another roundabout lament about appliance operators).

Of course he neglects to remember that we are empowered to build equipment, experiment, and yes Virginia! We can radiate dangerous RF toward our fellow man. We also have the potential to cause harmful interference to Air traffic, government, military, public, and safety systems. #So the point of his emotion filled, and fact deficient post was WHAT? #Nothing, just another grumpy old man spouting off about crap.

As long as there is an ARS there will be testing, rules, and standards. It is our responsibility to follow them and convey to our leaders ways to improve the system, and observations of violations.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (W6SN @ Aug. 31 2005,15:46)]Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Aug. 31 2005,13:33)]As for the elimination of code from the bands, some on here are denying that anyone is calling for that, but it is very clear that many have done exactly that. #There are people loudly proclaiming that elimination of CW (not just testing) is the goal, and there are many more who are using a back door approach, claiming they are not against CW, but advocating that the narrow CW spectrum be squeezed even further. #They use the argument that CW is allowed on all the frequencies, but ignore the FACT that it is not used except in small areas, and cannot be compressed even more.
I don't see CW as having a "narrow" spectrum as it is. #I personally don't think it should be squeezed tighter, but it actually has half of each HF band, does it not?

Jason
Actually, Jason, no it does not. The overwhelming majority of CW is squeezed into the bottom 60 kHz of the bands. That's out of 350 on 20m for example. The rest of the so-called "CW band" is taken up with the various other digital modes. Example: PSK31 (a mode I particularly enjoy) dwells at 14.070, 7.070, etc. Most all CW is below that frequency, and most of the space above is RTTY, PACTOR, and a host of other digital modes, up to 14.150, where phone starts. Even then, the digital modes, CW plus all the others, have 150 out of 350. 43%, not quite half. (Using 20m for an example, the other HF bands are similar but not exactly the same.)

So when you are talking about non-phone portions of the bands, you are not talking about just CW, you are talking about a number of narrowband digital modes. Places where there can be more digital experimentation.

[K4JF]

Excellent comments by KD5NCO above (love that call!!). I agree with most, and we, as gentlemen, can disagree on some of the minor points.

I would like to emphasise some of his points by quoting W4WQK (one of my Elmers, 30+ years ago) who said: That license is a license to learn.

73 de K4JF (former Army MARS)

[ky1v]

Quote[/b] (KD5NCO @ Aug. 30 2005,22:10)]Mr. FORRESTER sir, AKA K4JF

Is it really necessary for me to quote the entire history of the ARS in all it's various forms and then post the exact date the testing of Morse code became a requirement to gain an FCC Amateur Radio Operator License? Would it interest you to know exactly who in the Department of the Navy demanded the skill be tested? Or in what year that demand was made. Or the history of the FCC and it's predecessor organization? All these are historical facts that can be researched and learned. Surprising to me that we carp about ruining a tradition but no one can describe accurately the history that might support any notion of it's ancient roots.

On the other hand I can see your point and perspective and will agree that sometimes the mere duration of a requirement can seem to have taken on the aspects of a tradition.

However sir, we do not require a BAR exam out of tradition. Med students are not required to intern out of tradition. Soldiers do not qualify with the rifle out of tradition. In each case there is a compelling requirement for those skill to be proved.

In the case of Element 1 testing the requirement that started the testing has been removed, twice. (that should get some folks thinking).

You may not defend that which you do not fully understand. And that is precisely why all the arguments years ago resulted in the FCC saying:

Quote from the FCC

"The amateur service is one of the radio communication services authorized by the Radio Regulations and was one of the first non-government communication services. Regulation of the amateur service in the United States dates from the early 1900's as a result of the U.S. Navy's concern about interference to its stations and its desire to be able to order amateur radio stations off the air in the event of war. #As part of this regulation, proficiency in Morse code was mandated to ensure that amateur radio operators could recognize and avoid interference with government and commercial stations as well as maritime distress messages, and to ensure that the U.S. Navy could communicate government orders to amateur radio operators. This mandated telegraphy proficiency was continued by the Federal Radio Commission and then by the Federal Communications Commission. Telegraphy proficiency remains one of the examination elements that, by international treaty, an examinee must pass to obtain an amateur service operator license that authorizes operating privileges in the portion of the radio spectrum below 30 MHz.

Background. In the early days of radio, communication by radiotelegraphy was the primary means used to exchange messages between radio operators at all radio stations, including amateur radio stations. Proficiency in telegraphy using the Morse code was mandated to ensure that operators of amateur radio stations would not cause interference to Government and commercial stations and that amateur radio stations would be able to stay clear of maritime distress messages.

Decision. We have considered the comments on this issue and conclude that the public interest will best be served by reducing the telegraphy examination requirement to the minimum requirement that we have found that meets the Radio Regulations and that has been accepted as proving that the control operator of a station can ensure the proper operation of that station."

These experts are from the 1998 reductions from 13/20 to 5WPM testing

You might read the entire record to decide how in the future you would like to state your position on retaining some form of code testing. This is a great place to learn about what won't work.

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Wireless/Orders/1999/fcc99412.txt

Respectfully
You know, the more I read your posts, and the more I learn about your attitude, the more I believe we need to retain Morse testing as a "filter".

Take a Lexapro, sit back and relax, then go read your posts.

You may find the experience quite enlightening.

It is most interesting that both of the ex military (Army) employees I hired are just as cocky. It must be the result of the "new discipline" being administered by our armed forces.

David ~ KY1V

[ky1v]

Quote[/b] (KD5NCO @ Aug. 31 2005,18:41)]I have taught Basic Electronics Training in one of the Army service schools. I have trained soldiers how to repair radios and avionics gear down to board and component level. I can pass any Advanced or Extra test from any year group in front of the FCC examiner with out any study right now this day. I joined the ARS because I am a team oriented fellow and love being part of or leading teams. So Ham Radio is not just a hobby in my eyes
Roughly translated...

"I am better than all of you so there is no reason for me to be held back because of one disability...my inability to learn Morse code"

David ~ KY1V

[KD5NCO]

Good evening Dave:

Were you serious that you would like the FCC to find a way to filter out folks with my credentials? ("You know, the more I read your posts, and the more I learn about your attitude, the more I believe we need to retain Morse testing as a "filter".)"


Hey it is not like I am God's gift to the ARS but I assure you that if you want to exclude every body like me from your personal good old boys club then it surly will die a slow painful death as folks like you eventually go SK.

Bad plan Dave, filtering IDIOTS like me isn't the way.

Fortunately you and the 6 or 8 others here with similar attitudes are not speaking for all ARS members. So I can relax knowing that you will not be successful getting up a mob to tar and feather me for my heresy.

KY1V, Dave Please stop deluding yourself that I have some inability to learn anything.

And I certainly give no impression of being held back. Especially not by some simple 5wmp Morse code test. I did not join the ARS with any chip on my shoulder and there is not one there right now.

So why the hell am I even responding to your childish crap?

You seem to have a problem with my posting a very short list of my credentials and accomplishments.

Funny but the only place on earth I ever feel compelled to post my pedigree is here on QRZ where I find the greatest quantity of bigoted, elitist, arrogant, folks who assume that all Technicians and new ARS members are lazy stupid, slackers.

Remember, this is the INTERNET and there are currently many more folks viewing this thread then posting.

You have no rational argument (IMO), and you lack the capability to engage in adult debate (proven in this thread by you posts) so you fall back on the good old ankle biting snip attacks.

I could play that game also. Unfortunately nobody else gains from you and I jousting about with insults.

Please try to comprehend what I have said in previous posts, find a point you disagree with, and post a series of words that convey your belief and perhaps have some facts to support why you are correct and I am all wet. Do this without resorting to insulting me and we can have a meaningful dialog.

Believe me if you can convince me (a fairly bright fellow with an open mind) then you stand a chance to get the ARRL, VEC, and FCC to consider your opinion. If you can't stand toe to toe with a lazy slacker dumbed down new guy, what chance do you have with the experts?

[ky1v]

Quote[/b] (W6SN @ Aug. 31 2005,17:46)]I don't see CW as having a "narrow" spectrum as it is. #I personally don't think it should be squeezed tighter, but it actually has half of each HF band, does it not?

Jason
Incorrect...CW is permitted in all of the bands.

If the no-code phone guys push to reduce the portion of the bands upon which CW operators currently restrain themselves in order to accommodate the influx of phone operators after the elimination of Morse testing, I wouldn't be surprised to see the CW operators begin to exercise their right to operate CW in the phone band, especially during contesting.

Won't that be fun!

David ~ KY1V

[ky1v]

Quote[/b] (KD5NCO @ Aug. 31 2005,18:07)]My overly long and testy post (with your name leading in) was typed while I fumed about the crap David ~ KY1V tried to lay on me.

I acknowledge that my perspective is only by looking up facts, not living and experiencing a vast spectrum of them. (relating to the ARS)

(I am 50, first licensed after Y2K).
Is this the same guy that bragged...

"I have been on the planet 50 years and listened in (to HF) ever since 1965."

Is this the same guy that believes he has more knowledge than I relevant to what is taking place in Amateur Radio?

Unbelievable, what a load of malarkey!

Hey pal, FYI, I am not a "grumpy OM". In fact, I am younger than you, have been involved in ham radio for more continuous years than you will most likely have left on the planet and I am 100% confident that you want to eliminate CW testing because you are too lazy to learn it.

If you wanted HF privileges bad enough, you would have already learned Morse code instead of spending the last 5 years bellyaching about it.

You may have yourself convinced that you are not "lazy, dumb, or wanting something for nothing", but you can't sell that junk to the rest of us.

Have another look in the mirror.

David ~ KY1V



David ~ KY1V

[ky1v]

Quote[/b] (KD5NCO @ Aug. 31 2005,21:13)]Blah blah blah...
Since you think I am a child and can’t debate like an adult, let me comment on your last post one line at a time.

"Were you serious that you would like the FCC to find a way to filter out folks with my credentials? ("You know, the more I read your posts, and the more I learn about your attitude, the more I believe we need to retain Morse testing as a "filter".)"

Locate the line where I mentioned your credentials. The answer to your question is yes, I would love for the FCC to filter out people with your "attitude" toward the ARS.

You love to twist people’s words, don't you?

"Hey it is not like I am God's gift to the ARS but I assure you that if you want to exclude every body like me from your personal good old boys club then it surly will die a slow painful death as folks like you eventually go SK."

Shall I go back and quote the more than 20 sentences where you brag about your abilities and potential contributions to the ARS, or should I spare the rest of the people reading this thread the pain of reading it again...or perhaps spare you the embarrassment?

Do you want to read my list? It would put you to shame.

"Bad plan Dave, filtering IDIOTS like me isn't the way."

Again, making up words to suit you purpose. I never called you an idiot, but I do recall you calling MANY lawyers and attorney's IDIOTS. Yes sir, you're the kind of person we want in the ARS. Sign em' up boys! He'll fit right in on the 75 meter phone band!

"Fortunately you and the 6 or 8 others here with similar attitudes are not speaking for all ARS members. So I can relax knowing that you will not be successful getting up a mob to tar and feather me for my heresy."

There's a stretch of the imagination. No one wants to tar and feather anyone; we simply want to stop the erosion of Amateur Radio testing, including the complete elimination of Morse testing.

"KY1V, Dave Please stop deluding yourself that I have some inability to learn anything."

I am 100% confident that you don’t have the ability to learn Morse code and I am 99% confident that I will stand correct because I seriously doubt you will every put forth any effort to learn Morse code. You prefer a free ride to Amateur Radio HF access using the bellyaching method of finding any argument you can in support of the elimination of the obstacle in your way. Did they teach you that in the Army?

"And I certainly give no impression of being held back. Especially not by some simple 5wmp Morse code test. I did not join the ARS with any chip on my shoulder and there is not one there right now."

If the test is so simple, how come you haven't passed it during the 5 years you've been a ham? Heck, many people learn it in two weeks or less and get thier speed above 5WPM! One month or so later, they can copy 13WPM. Oh, I forgot, you aren't interested in learning Morse code...but you sure in the heck are interested in operating HF phone, aren't you now? And you say you don't have a motivational problem (aka LAZY)? Keep in mind; we learn by doing...you aren't doing!

"So why the hell am I even responding to your childish crap?"

This one is simple, because it supports your cause and you can't stand someone pointing out your inconsistencies, putting down your rhetoric and exposing your idiosyncrasies.

"You seem to have a problem with my posting a very short list of my credentials and accomplishments."

No, I have a problem with your attitude. An attitude of building up your self importance so you can put others down and make yourself appear important enough to justify it. We all have credentials and accomplishments, but you don't see us posting them in front of the world in order to make ourselves appear worthy of reading our opinions.

Would it make my opinion any more important if I told you I was the CTO of a worldwide web hosting company and that I am the founder of the Young Ham Contest Program and that I gave a brand new $1400 HF radio away to a guy with MS whom took the time to learn CW instead of bellyaching about it, would it matter if I told you I was last years ham radio operator of the year? Does is matter that I am an accomplished computer engineer, a programmer, can design PCB's, fix radios, amplifiers, blah blah blah...is any of that relevant to my opinion? Should I brag that I have been a ham for 30 years and been on many DXepedtions? Does it matter that I have contributed to this hobby more than you can ever imagine? Does any of this make my opinion more valuable to anyone reading this thread? You guessed it...not one bit.

"Funny but the only place on earth I ever feel compelled to post my pedigree is here on QRZ where I find the greatest quantity of bigoted, elitist, arrogant, folks who assume that all Technicians and new ARS members are lazy stupid, slackers."

See, there you go again, putting others down and calling them names...then in the same breath you complain about others calling you names...isn't that ironic? If you ask me, it makes you look silly and takes away from the value of your opinions, credentials and accomplishments.

It is most arrogant, and disturbing, that you refer to your accomplishments and credentials as your pedigree, yet you call me an elitist for wanting Morse code to remain as a requirement to obtaining an Amateur Radio License. Where is that mirror again?

"Remember, this is the INTERNET and there are currently many more folks viewing this thread then posting."

You are correct...this is the Internet, and judging by what I read here, I certainly hope many of the attitudes posted by those hoping to further reduce the quality of our service do not find their way onto our HF ham bands.

"You have no rational argument (IMO), and you lack the capability to engage in adult debate (proven in this thread by you posts) so you fall back on the good old ankle biting snip attacks"

There you go again...belittling another person. Where is that mirror? You call my posts "ankle biting snip attacks". What do you call this statement: "you lack the capability to engage in adult debate"?

Please enlighten me!

"I could play that game also. Unfortunately nobody else gains from you and I jousting about with insults."

Then why do you continue to perpetuate them?

"Please try to comprehend what I have said in previous posts, find a point you disagree with, and post a series of words that convey your belief and perhaps have some facts to support why you are correct and I am all wet. Do this without resorting to insulting me and we can have a meaningful dialog."

Ok, now I am incapable of comprehension? How did I ever make through life before I encountered you on QRZ.COM? I already made my point. I stand by the point that the continued erosion of Amateur testing will lead to the demise of Amateur Radio. My proof is in the erosion that has taken place in the past 20 years with the changes in testing. I'm not going to waste my time typing all the changes that have lead to the problems we now have on HF, but I can assure you that they were non existent or hardly noticeable in the 1970's. Many have pointed out the fact that many of the hams causing today’s problems are Extra class licensees and I submit to you that these are the "new breed" of hams that have entered the service since the late 1980's and early 1990's. This is not the way the ARS was before the 1980's. People DID NOT, let me repeat, THEY DID NOT, behave in any fashion similar to that which can be found on any HF band today...but this new breed of NCT's will have us all believe that it's those "old timers" they are the problem, just listen to them on HF. How could any NCT be any worse!

Just wait until 600,000 of them are upgraded to General class and another 600,000 people enter the ARS service in the next several years. I hope you remember this "dumb old ham" (by the way, my previous call was N1DOH) in ten years when ham radio isn't any fun because of all the jerks you have to contend with causing you interference.

"Believe me if you can convince me (a fairly bright fellow with an open mind) then you stand a chance to get the ARRL, VEC, and FCC to consider your opinion. If you can't stand toe to toe with a lazy slacker dumbed down new guy, what chance do you have with the experts?"

There you go again, calling yourself a fairly bright fellow after you have belittled me by saying "please try to comprehend..." and "you lack the capability...".

Does this make you feel like a man? Do you feel important now? I hope so. In fact, perhaps building your self esteem at my expense will give you the confidence to get off your duff and go learn Morse code!

Where's that mirror again?

David ~ KY1V

PS: "you can't stand toe to toe with a lazy slacker dumbed down new guy". This is what I hope to avoid!

[W6SN]

Quote[/b] (ky1v @ Aug. 31 2005,19:25)]Quote[/b] (W6SN @ Aug. 31 2005,17:46)]I don't see CW as having a "narrow" spectrum as it is. I personally don't think it should be squeezed tighter, but it actually has half of each HF band, does it not?

Jason
Incorrect...CW is permitted in all of the bands.

If the no-code phone guys push to reduce the portion of the bands upon which CW operators currently restrain themselves in order to accommodate the influx of phone operators after the elimination of Morse testing, I wouldn't be surprised to see the CW operators begin to exercise their right to operate CW in the phone band, especially during contesting.

Won't that be fun!

David ~ KY1V
Well yah, but I was referring to space where you wouldn't find voice (from region 2/FCC stations that is...)

Though, if we take into account the minimal bandwidth that CW takes compared to voice (something most pro-coders love to tout, as well), then it has the lion's share of bandwidth, considering how many qso's can take place in that 60khz http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I personally see nothing wrong with operating CW up at 14.237 or something along those lines, since it is perfectly legal. The thing I find funny, though, especially with that other comment above... sure, most CW ops are below 14.070, but no one is really forcing them down there.. I also tune around the whole band at times when I get bored, and don't hear much digital apart from psk, and a few rtty stations scattered around. Though, I do hear a ton of cw stations down below 14.040, with a few between .040 and .070. I'd try and join in, but I'm not adept enough at cw in the first place to try and do it mobile ;)

Jason

[W6SN]

Quote[/b] (ky1v @ Aug. 31 2005,19:38)]If you wanted HF privileges bad enough, you would have already learned Morse code instead of spending the last 5 years bellyaching about it.

You may have yourself convinced that you are not "lazy, dumb, or wanting something for nothing", but you can't sell that junk to the rest of us.
Not knowing his personal reasons for not doing the morse test, I'd at least like to point out that CW really isn't a filter, nor is it something that most people want to spend their time on in this day and age. Sure, it's a great feeling when you get it down, and pass the test (whether it's 5 or 13 or 20, you still passed a test, and it feels good), but that doesn't mean that it's worth many peoples' time. I personally had a boredom spell for a couple weeks, so sat there and learned it. I personally had many other things I was doing at the time, though, and wasn't able to dedicate much time to it. That being said, perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to judge people as "lazy", "dumb", or "wanting something for nothing", when you hardly know them. I know plenty of people who don't even bother with morse, because yes, they know that the FCC will drop it eventually, and they have better things to do with their time than spend hours learning something they will probably never use again.

My 2 cents,
Jason

[ky1v]

Fred (KD5NCO),

I want to ask you a question.

But first, I want you to consider the statements you have previously written.

You wrote:

"Be proud and rejoice! How damned often do you see a law repealed that give back rights, power, and self determination to the people?"

...and you wrote:

"Yes there is a lot more "in your face" "screw you" type crap on some freqs. But it seems to me more a result of poor restraint or discipline in the general population..."

...and you wrote:

"Those young soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq right now are cut from the same pool of "dumbed down" America that we need to recruit new blood into the ARS from"

...and you wrote:

"The Difference is simply ...we NEED the new guys and know it... in the ARMY. The same is true with the ARS..."

Before I ask my question, I would like to be sure I clearly understand your position. I must make some basic assumptions based on my "comprehension" of your statements. So, if I am incorrect, please forgive me and feel free to correct me.

Is it true that you believe that Morse code proficiency testing is some sort of "hazing ritual" designed to be used as a filter to keep otherwise "good operators" off of HF?

Can I assume that you consider a "good operator" one that has mastered the operation of an HF station on phone, RTTY, PSK31 and SSTV, but conversely, you consider an operator whom can operate all those modes, plus Morse code proficiently, an elitist, rather than a "better operator"?

May I assume you agree there are more problems on HF today, than let's say, 10, 20, even 30 years ago and this is attributed to the "general population"? Can I safely assume the term "general population" encompasses both an increase in the number of licensed Amateur Radio operators as well as a more diverse spectrum of people relating to their background, race and class? If not, I hardly understand your point.

Can I also safely assume you believe we need more Amateur Radio operators or there will be no one left with which to communicate 10, 20, perhaps 30 years from now?

My real question is as follows:

Do you believe that every American citizen should have the uninhibited right to obtain an Amateur Radio license solely on the demonstration that they can pass the current written examinations without having to show a proficiency in Morse code?<