Golden Opportunity To Promote Ham Radio

[kb9ibw]

# # #Amateur Radio Operators once again have a unique opportunity to spread the word about our hobby with great media coverage this Veteran's Day and in September.
#
# # # Amateur's have been asked by the Golden Corral Restaurants #to celebrate Military Appreciation Monday this November, and give the people of our communities an opportunity to thank those that currently serve and have served in the Armed Forces. #The event is held on the Monday after Veteran's Day, and falls on November 14, 2005 this year. #During this event the restaurant provides free meals to active duty troops, and veteran's. #Needless to say this generates large crowds. #They provide thousands of free meals each year at Golden Corral's nationwide.
#
# # #The SOLE purpose of amateur radio involvement is to promote our hobby, pay tribute to those that serve in the Armed Forces, and to provide a public service. #We want to use this opportunity to make QSO's of appreciation between locations nationwide, and with other amateur's. #We will not be promoting the Golden Corral Chain in anyway, or inviting people to support the chain. #This is a great opportunity to demonstrate our hobby.
#
# # # Last year amateur radio was invited to run special event stations from these restaurants as a means of exposing ham radio to the public, and as a way to say thanks to those that serve in a live forum. #The event was announced to amateur's on short notice, however we were able to make our presence a success. #As a result, of our involvement, we have been asked to expand our presence nationwide so that more people can witness amateur radio first hand. #

# # # Why not have your club, or just a group of local amateur's set up a small ham station at a local Golden Corral and run a Special event station. #Make QSO's with other Golden Corral's, and with amateurs worldwide. #The station can also allow the public to express words of thanks to our military members, and veteran's over the radio. #Some stores have over 7,000 people attend the event, and many members of the Press cover this event, as it is a national attraction. #This is an excellent way to showcase our hobby, and to provide a great public service for a few short hours.
#
# # # Present this idea, as well as other ARMAD special event's to your club, and let's get some media coverage, and expousure for Amateur Radio. #This is a great way to recruit new members to our hobby, and for amateurs to have some fun, and dust off the equipment.

# # # #Amateur's can run HF, PSK31, IRLP, and Echolink during the event. #See the list of Frequencies and modes listed on the ARMAD webpage.

# # # #Visit www.armad.net for more information about ARMAD, and events that we put on to help grow our hobby. #Let's "Ham It UP For The Troops."


# # # # This special event is not an endorsement of the Golden Corral, nor a promotion for them. #It is an opportunity for amateur's to share messages of appreciation and thanks to our military members of the past and present. #

# # # # Also join us for Amateur Radio Christian Felowship Day on September 25, 2005.

www.armad.net or Google ARMAD or KC9HAJ

[K6MFW]

We did ATV coverage for our local veterans during their Veterans Day Parade here in San Jose, CA. A lot of work but a lot of fun, take a look
http://www.batnet.com/mfwrigh....de.html (http://www.batnet.com/mfwright/2004veteransdayparade/2004vetdayparade.html)

If the link gets screwed up, do a callsign lookup of K6MFW and follow the ATV links.

Mike K6MFW

[KU2S]

I would be exceedingly cautious in regards to performing any Amateur Radio activity in conjunction with any commercial enterprise, no matter how well-intentioned. The mere presence of an Amateur Radio station at one of these restaurants during a special promotion could very easily be mistaken as to the purpose and intent of the operators.

[N5USN]

I would agree with you if they were promoting the blue plate special at the local Golden Corral. But they are promoting Veterans. I don't feel there's a pecuniary interest (Then again, I voted for GORE). And, I lean towards the Vets every time. I guess the best way would be to ask for an opinion as stated.

I think it's great that Ham's want to support our vets, and even better that there are people that will take the time to write a letter or send a package to our troops. Many a night in the deserts of Kuwait I waited for a package of Jim Beam that never arrived. Thanks for supporting the Troops!

Perry
N5USN

[KU2S]

Quote[/b] (N5USN @ Aug. 22 2005,21:37)]I would agree with you if they were promoting the blue plate special at the local Golden Corral. #But they are promoting Veterans. #I don't feel there's a pecuniary interest (Then again, I voted for GORE). #And, I lean towards the Vets every time. #I guess the best way would be to ask for an opinion as stated.

I think it's great that Ham's want to support our vets, and even better that there are people that will take the time to write a letter or send a package to our troops. #Many a night in the deserts of Kuwait I waited for a package of Jim Beam that never arrived. #Thanks for supporting the Troops!

Perry
N5USN
My concern is that by using Amateur Radio to support and promote an event that is, essentially, a promotion for and by a commercial entity, that we are violating the rules and regulations regarding Amateur Radio, free meal or not.

[n0jaa]

I agree, this is a very borderline issue. #I always jump for a chance to promote Amateur Radio to the general public, but when that promotion is associated with a commercial enterprise, a red flag always goes up.

One must also consider the fact that Golden Corral, whatever their actual intentions, will use this event to promote their business. #While there is nothing wrong with promoting a business, using Amateur Radio to do it cannot be an option.

Let's see what FCC has to say about it. #If Uncle Charley gives us the go-ahead, then I'm all for it!

Paul, N0JAA.

I'm just going out to slit my wrist. What a load of drivel,
"Occam's razor",
88, Howard

[w6em]

While it sounds like a great way to assist an enterprise honor active duty military and veterans, it sure looks like a potential problem with Part 97.

Here's the section:

Sec. 97.113 #Prohibited transmissions.

# #(a) No amateur station shall transmit:

# #(1) Communications specifically prohibited elsewhere in this part;

# #(2) Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in these rules;


Material compensation could be interpreted to include such things as receiving anything of value from Golden Corral. #Meals #and even electrical energy to operate the radios from their site, etc. #Perhaps, even the space to operate from.

Golden Corral itself would benefit from the publicity of the presence of the amateur station and they are in business to turn a profit. #The operation could be viewed as a means to communicate with other amateurs, advertising their presence and location, to invite other hams to come by and purchase a meal.

If, however, there was an event at a public or military or veterans facility to honor active duty military and veterans and Golden Corral were to cater food, well, that would look different. #A public event in a public place with amateur radio operators helping coordinate facility use, parking, escorting or assisting with disabled visitors. That would look very different. Even if they were to, on the air, invite others to come by and purchase a meal. #Especially if the proceeds went to a worthy cause for veterans or active duty military families.
#
However, just my two cents.

Lee
W6EM

[wc4rav]

First off - this is a great way to promote amateur radio!
the fact that Golden Coral will be giving away free meals to active military and vets sure will draw a crowd - and A crow of folks probably more familiar with Amateur radio than the average civi' do to their military service.

and for all of you phaux rule quoters.
I did not see mention of anyone being compensated for making transmissions -
a transmission is not even required to illustrate amateur radio- or you particular radio club.

and for those of you who think this contradicts the rules then you must have a serious problem with the ARRL's many programs in which money changes hands on behalf of amateur radio. namely the fee's imposed by the ARRL for field training certification - even though they received a grant to cover the cost.

Lets stop looking for excuses- if we want the service to continue then we must demonstrate that we are good stewards- no excuses

[K0RGR]

Well, I'm pretty sure that nobody at Golden Corral is planning to take out full-page ads inviting throngs of people to come see the live ham radio demonstration on a slow Monday night in November. But, I do agree that because there is a commercial entity involved, we have to be extremely careful to avoid any appearance of commerciality.

Another way to achieve this would be to get ARRL involved. If this item was advertised on the front page of their web site, I think there would be a general concensus that it was "kosher". Not to mention the fact that you'd get the attention of all the ARRL-affiliated clubs that way, too.

This sounds like a great idea to me! We've got a Golden Corral here, but it's in a rather out-of-the-way place, so I don't know how big a crowd we'd get, but I intend to bring this up at our next club meeting.

[w6em]

Quote[/b] (WW2E @ Aug. 23 2005,22:32)]This raises the question of whether amateur radio can be used to assist in non-profit fundraising.

FCC Part 97.3(a)(4) says that your station must be operated "solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest."

This means that your station operation must always take place without a financial purpose -- regardless of whether that financial purpose relates to you, or to another party (such as a business, a charity, the government, etc.).

This is why we don't hear amateurs offering on-air information about their favorite charities' pot-luck dinners, garage sales, raffles, etc. We don't even hear promos during nets for the major, super-honorable fundraising drives (Red Cross, etc.).

Of course, Part 97 makes a clear exception to "pecuniary interest" for certain amateur radio-related information, such as gear for sale, hamfest announcements, etc.

Again, as I suggested in an earlier post, the best approach is to ask the Commission. There is an easy online procedure at their website, and an official answer usually comes in just a few days.

73 de Phil WW2E
Sorry, OM, but you need to understand what without pecuniary interest means. Essentially, it means operation without money or relating to money. It means that you, personally, cannot receive compensation in any form for your operation. Be it money, food, ownership value, etc. Except as permitted by the rules.

The worthy cause can, of course.

If no operation were permitted surrounding an event that charges admission, then talk-in stations or event stations of any kind would not be permissible. They obviously are permissible. Who knows, maybe Golden Corral amateur stations would be OK, even giving talk-in directions, etc., so long as the operator isn't paid.

As far as the FCC opinion goes, I'd suggest giving Riley Hollingsworth a call or sending him an email with the nature of the request. I'm sure he'll be glad to offer his advice quickly.

Now, on to what you didn't say (that amounts to pecuniary interest) permitted by the rules!!!!! School teachers are allowed to be paid to demonstrate amateur radio. That is pefectly reasonable. Almost unbelievably, though, scheduled broadcasters (such as the ARRL and even K1MAN) can pay amateurs to operate their stations and make broadcasts so long as they are scheduled. Fancy that. That, folks, is in:

97.113(d) The control operator of a club station may accept compensation for the periods of time when the station is transmitting telegraphy practice or information bulletins, provided that the station transmits such telegraphy practice and bulletins for at least 40 hours per week; schedules operations on at least six amateur service MF and HF bands using reasonable measures to maximize coverage; where the schedule of normal operating times and frequencies is published at least 30 days in advance of the actual transmissions; and where the control operator does not accept any direct or indirect compensation for any other service as a control operator.

How about those apples?

Consistently inconsistent. This section needs to be stricken. Period. It flies in the face of amateur radio by every other reasonable definition and encourages playing of recordings and such to meet or exceed the 40 hour per week requirement.

Good luck with your program. All it needs is a little fine tuning. The safest approach would be the one followed by amateur dealers. Lots of equipment on display. But, they don't operate it.


Lee
W6EM

[WW2E]

I would strongly suggest that amateurs who want to participate in this project get a written opinion from the Commission (it only takes a few days if you use their online procedure -- so you have plenty of time to be sure before the Golden Corral event takes place).

WW2E. Out.

[K0RGR]

I finally got through to the website mentioned in the original post and it has links to a Dept. of Defense website with a story about the event last May, and there is a reference to an article in CQ, so this is not an unknown quantity.

It is generally a better idea to go bother the League first. If you go to the commission and get a "no" that becomes a precedent condemning all future similar ventures, deserving or not. They certainly can't look into their crystal ball and forecast the behavior of all the individuals involved, so they may choose to take the 'safe' approach and say no, or, you may get an answer that is basically worthless. At least, if the League is supporting the activity, it's obvious that nobody was trying to slip something "under the radar".

[w6em]

Quote[/b] (wc4rav @ Aug. 24 2005,00:27)]....................
and for all of you #phaux rule quoters.
I did not see mention of #anyone being compensated for making #transmissions -
a transmission is not even required to illustrate #amateur radio- or you particular radio club.

and for those of you who think this contradicts the rules then you must have a serious problem with the ARRL's many programs #in which money changes hands on behalf of amateur radio. namely the #fee's imposed by the ARRL for field training certification - even though they received a grant to cover the cost.

Lets stop looking for excuses- if we want the service to continue then we must demonstrate that we are good stewards- no excuses
Yes, on the surface, as presented, it could be in violation of some of the rules.

What the ARRL does with respect to the courses you mention is off the air. #They do not reference their web site or their products in any of their on-air broadcasts. #On purpose. #When they collect money for the emergency communications courses, its done to help ensure only those who are sincerely interested in completing the course will apply. #And, when completed, the money paid is returned. #And, the course is a web course, not via W1AW broadcasts.

No argument about demonstrating that we need to be good stewards of the resources granted to us. #And, that implies courteous, efficient and lawful on-air operations.
If we aren't, then all the good-intentioned advertising will be for naught.

73,

Lee
W6EM

[n7zsd]

Quote[/b] (N5USN @ Aug. 22 2005,18:37)]I think it's great that Ham's want to support our vets, and even better that there are people that will take the time to write a letter or send a package to our troops. #Many a night in the deserts of Kuwait I waited for a package of Jim Beam that never arrived. #Thanks for supporting the Troops!

Perry
N5USN
Hey Perry, had I know you were waiting for a package of Beam, I would have personally sent you one. #Even knowing that alchohol is not allowed "in theatre". #However, next time I'm in your neck of the woods, I would be proud to buy you one...Hell, I'll even help you drink it!

Same goes for the Golden Corral thing. #Any chance to honor our Vets needs to be jumped on. #These guys do alot more than just what the "un-biased" media tells us. #I get regular press releases from the Kirkuk based 116th BCT. http://www.idarng.com/snakebite.asp
Trust me...these guys, and many other Vets from many other times and places around the globe have ensured our freedom time and time again. #Thank You, Perry, and I will be at the nearest Golden Corral!

[nz6q]

I have to agree here with the author. There is no violation of the rules regarding "commercial interest" here.

Why are so many hams "gun shy" about promoting the hobby??? This is no different then Golden Corral being a sponsor of your local veteren's day parade and ham radio being used in that parade for event control. Some would suggest that if a commercial entity is involved in any special event then ham radio has to be excluded for fear of promoting (vicariously) the commercial entity. Look at how many commercial entities sponsor your local special events such as parades, sporting events, your high school football team, or local professional team - and they all do it to help promote their business. What's wrong with that? Nothing.

What's wrong with using amateur radio at these events that (again vicariously) are being supported by a sponsor(s) who ultimately expect that they will get a return on their investment in the event through increased business? Nothing again.

I think Golden Corral is offering us a great opportunity to introduce our hobby to a great captive audience and we need to jump into it at every restaurant! If we don't, next year it will be Nextel, Sprint, or Verizon standing out there on Veteren's Day.

If you are concerned about commercial gain for your service, then when the waitress offers you free food or ice tea for being there, tell her "no thanks". I for one would enjoy that fried chicken and go right back to operating and showing off our hobby!

Let's definately promote this in our clubs now and rather then wait to see what the ARRL has to say about it, let's tell the ARRL that we are expecting their full support!

[kc7kpa]

This is not a "border line issue". It is pure crap and ingnorance to think so. Support your troops as i will be. Please support this action.
God bless America.
Karl M. Miller

[wc4rav]

Apparently it's ok if the ARRL says it's ok...lol
It’s ok because it's the right thing to do.

I don't think amateur radio is being exploied by commercail intrest I think that amateur radio has the opportunity to exploit the commerical intrest ,by the service during the event.

If you think that serving your community # #by supporting this event or any other event in you community is the right thing to do- do it! You don’t need anyone's permission to do the right thing. #If the commission has a problem with the manner in which you have operated your station, they will inform you. #Such notices rarely carry any penalties for one-time offenses. However I just can’t see where this particular event conflicts with part 97.

The ARRL is a commercial entity #(all be it a non profit) and sponsors many events to which amateurs participate #- non of these questions are ever raised when the ARRL is involved, as to whom benefits--remember you must pay a fee to join the ARRL so every time you mention the ARRL you are promoting a commercial interest.
Some one, usually another amateur, but not always the case, receives a benefit # for your advertisements- minimally in the form of a league paycheck.

Don’t take my post as a bash to the ARRL.
The ARRL has done some great things in the interest of its members. and many of those actions have even befitted the rest of the amateur community.
But don’t get it twisted the ARRL is a business- and as is the case with every business - is self-serving and in business to stay in business. I just believe that too many of us put the league on a pedestal to which it doesn’t belong. And in many case blinded by its corporate image.

The ARRL’s # endorsement is not required for the Amateur radio community at large # to participate in any event.

Do the right thing…….. because it’s the right thing to do!


The above text are the opinions of the author only- #(Malcolm Richardson Kg4ciu) and do not necessarily represent the opinions of any other

[w6em]

They key to this, I think, is the location and the nature of the business.

A parade or public event on public or government property is one thing. #Even if businesses participate by making donations of their products and advertising materials.

Here, we have a business, in full operation, at their place of business, wishing to advertise their practice of honoring military active duty and veterans with a free meal. #Amateurs operating on the air, mentioning what's going on and where they are, if they accept anything from Golden Corral, are probably in violation of Part 97 for accepting something of value.

Now, if this event is perfectly OK, not at all pecuniary, and acknowledged by the Department of Defense since you say it included a note on its website, why haven't one or all of the branches of the Military Affiliate Radio System (MARS) not picked up the baton? #They are officially sanctioned by DOD and have direct connections with active duty services and reserve components. #Since its an affiliate organization, you would think that MARS would be fully supporting and participating in such an event. #Plus, they could even set up some surplus gear and show it off in use. #Could it be the quid pro quo appearance of setting up at all those buffet restaurants for free meals and other gratuities?

Don't misunderstand, I support all branches of our military service and support their honor and recognition. #But, it sure looks like a 'hook' to have amateur radio operators advertise Golden Corral locations on the air for a few gratuities. Of course, advertising here is just fine.


Lee
W6EM

[wc4rav]

then I guess talk ins for hamfest are not kosher either. ARRl sacationed or not because cause the club or clubs putting them on have a pecuniary interest.

what next what else do we outlaw per your interpation of part 97.

I guess we should not handle emergency traffic or heath and welfare traffic be cause other means to handle such traffic exist.

That darn part 97 must only allow you to key up you radio exchange callsigns ans send qsl cards--ohh but wait a QSl card could be construded as compenstation for a qso...

now of course I'm being very sarcastic here , but one must exam why one would look so hard for an excuse for others not to service thier community.

If you don't feel like serving for god sakes don't discourage others from doing so.

[n4xts]

Quote[/b] (w6em @ Aug. 29 2005,06:26)]They key to this, I think, is the location and the nature of the business.

A parade or public event on public or government property is one thing. Even if businesses participate by making donations of their products and advertising materials.

Here, we have a business, in full operation, at their place of business, wishing to advertise their practice of honoring military active duty and veterans with a free meal. Amateurs operating on the air, mentioning what's going on and where they are, if they accept anything from Golden Corral, are probably in violation of Part 97 for accepting something of value.

Now, if this event is perfectly OK, not at all pecuniary, and acknowledged by the Department of Defense since you say it included a note on its website, why haven't one or all of the branches of the Military Affiliate Radio System (MARS) not picked up the baton? They are officially sanctioned by DOD and have direct connections with active duty services and reserve components. Since its an affiliate organization, you would think that MARS would be fully supporting and participating in such an event. Plus, they could even set up some surplus gear and show it off in use. Could it be the quid pro quo appearance of setting up at all those buffet restaurants for free meals and other gratuities?

Don't misunderstand, I support all branches of our military service and support their honor and recognition. But, it sure looks like a 'hook' to have amateur radio operators advertise Golden Corral locations on the air for a few gratuities. Of course, advertising here is just fine.


Lee
W6EM
Then I guess we can't advertise radio equipment for sale on nets, advertise hamfests, and that also means that ham radio stores like HRO amd AES can't have giveaways either or at least discuss them on the air because they also have a "pecuniary interest" as does any club holding a net inviting others to join, etc etc.

The hair splitting and excuses are just that: lame excuses for not getting out and serving the community. If we don't promote the amateur radio service in a positive light in the public by supporting LOCAL events (and not just "when the big one" comes) than we have no credibility with the public and little justification to exist as far as occupying the radio spectrum we do.

Time to wake up. We are no longer the "elitist" that some think we are. We need to work harder at being in the positive public eye and support the community. We prove ourselves to be assets not liabilites when we get out there and "do something" positive in the communities in which we live.

As was stated before: if you choose to abstain and not perform in community service, so be it. That is your loss. But please kindly step aside and allow others who do wish to do something constructive to grow the amateur radio service in a positive light the room to do so.

[w6em]

Quote[/b] (KB4TPP @ Aug. 28 2005,16:20)]Then I guess we can't advertise radio equipment for sale on nets, advertise hamfests, and that also means that ham radio stores like HRO amd AES can't have giveaways either or at least discuss them on the air because they also have a "pecuniary interest" as does any club holding a net inviting others to join, etc etc.

The hair splitting and excuses are just that: lame excuses for not getting out and serving the community. If we don't promote the amateur radio service in a positive light in the public by supporting LOCAL events (and not just "when the big one" comes) than we have no credibility with the public and little justification to exist as far as occupying the radio spectrum we do.

Time to wake up. We are no longer the "elitist" that some think we are. We need to work harder at being in the positive public eye and support the community. We prove ourselves to be assets not liabilites when we get out there and "do something" positive in the communities in which we live.

As was stated before: if you choose to abstain and not perform in community service, so be it. That is your loss. But please kindly step aside and allow others who do wish to do something constructive to grow the amateur radio service in a positive light the room to do so.
OK, here's what Part 97 says about some of your examples. #If you want to encourage others to risk at least a Warning Letter from the FCC, go right ahead. #And I very sincerely doubt that the ARRL would risk endorsing what looks at least very controversial:

Sec. 97.113 #Prohibited transmissions.

# #(a) No amateur station shall transmit:
# #(1) Communications specifically prohibited elsewhere in this part;
# #(2) Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in these rules;
# #(3) Communications in which the station licensee or control operator has a pecuniary interest, including communications on behalf of an employer. #Amateur operators may, however, notify other amateur operators
of the availability for sale or trade of apparatus normally used in an amateur station, provided that such activity is not conducted on a regular basis;

No, I don't believe this splits any hairs. #It is very clear and very specific. #You won't hear AES or HRO or any of their licensed employees on the air mentioning their employers or what they have on sale. #And, as I said earlier, you sure won't hear them on the air from one of their stores.
#
ARRL is a 501c.3 non-profit organization. #Most clubs are. #The Red Cross is. #The Salvation Army is. #Is the Golden Corral?

Of course, I guess if you were to obtain some kind of proof that you accepted no compensation, material or otherwise, to give to the FCC should you receive an official piece of correspondence, maybe that would take care of any possible problem.

Good luck with your event and enjoy the cuisine.

[n4xts]

Quote[/b] (w6em @ Aug. 30 2005,07:49)]Quote[/b] (KB4TPP @ Aug. 28 2005,16:20)]Then I guess we can't advertise radio equipment for sale on nets, advertise hamfests, and that also means that ham radio stores like HRO amd AES can't have giveaways either or at least discuss them on the air because they also have a "pecuniary interest" as does any club holding a net inviting others to join, etc etc.

The hair splitting and excuses are just that: lame excuses for not getting out and serving the community. If we don't promote the amateur radio service in a positive light in the public by supporting LOCAL events (and not just "when the big one" comes) than we have no credibility with the public and little justification to exist as far as occupying the radio spectrum we do.

Time to wake up. We are no longer the "elitist" that some think we are. We need to work harder at being in the positive public eye and support the community. We prove ourselves to be assets not liabilites when we get out there and "do something" positive in the communities in which we live.

As was stated before: if you choose to abstain and not perform in community service, so be it. That is your loss. But please kindly step aside and allow others who do wish to do something constructive to grow the amateur radio service in a positive light the room to do so.
OK, here's what Part 97 says about some of your examples. If you want to encourage others to risk at least a Warning Letter from the FCC, go right ahead. And I very sincerely doubt that the ARRL would risk endorsing what looks at least very controversial:

Sec. 97.113 Prohibited transmissions.

(a) No amateur station shall transmit:
(1) Communications specifically prohibited elsewhere in this part;
(2) Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in these rules;
(3) Communications in which the station licensee or control operator has a pecuniary interest, including communications on behalf of an employer. Amateur operators may, however, notify other amateur operators
of the availability for sale or trade of apparatus normally used in an amateur station, provided that such activity is not conducted on a regular basis;

No, I don't believe this splits any hairs. It is very clear and very specific. You won't hear AES or HRO or any of their licensed employees on the air mentioning their employers or what they have on sale. And, as I said earlier, you sure won't hear them on the air from one of their stores.

ARRL is a 501c.3 non-profit organization. Most clubs are. The Red Cross is. The Salvation Army is. Is the Golden Corral?

Of course, I guess if you were to obtain some kind of proof that you accepted no compensation, material or otherwise, to give to the FCC should you receive an official piece of correspondence, maybe that would take care of any possible problem.

Good luck with your event and enjoy the cuisine.
Lee,

According to your interpretation of Part 97, and let me quote this from 97.113:

"2) Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in these rules" is prohibited.

I don't see anything there that states that if such communication benefits the ARRL or other 501.C.3 than it has the FCC's blessing. So by your interpretation, than getting anything that may be considered "material" while operating your station is a violation. If that is the case than Newington's mailbox should be full of pink slips.

Sorry, don't buy it. I think the spirit of the law was to prevent licencees from accepting direct payment for providing their communication services or using amateur radio in a fashion it is not intended for (such as a replacement for commercial radios, Nextel, etc.).

Working public service events and providing community service is essential to the growth and continued existence of the amateur radio service as whole.

Formulating excuses for not serving the community is not.

[wc4rav]

Quote[/b] (w6em @ Aug. 30 2005,07:49)].
#
ARRL is a 501c.3 non-profit organization. #Most clubs are. #The Red Cross is. #The Salvation Army is. #Is the Golden Corral?

Of course, I guess if you were to obtain some kind of proof that you accepted no compensation, material or otherwise, to give to the FCC should you receive an official piece of correspondence, maybe that would take care of any possible problem.
I did not see #an exemption in the excerpt of part 97 you posted #for non profits with a pecuniary interest..

oh hey- I guess HRO/AES needs to remove those demo stations- because the use of those stations #by a customer may lead to the purchase #of equipment.

but Now I'm just being argumentative.

with the example of the event we are discussing (which by the way I encourage everyone to #participate in)
The Golden Coral #is supporting a non profit event, because they are #donating prepared meals ,and the location to consume #those meals/ they are also providing free of charge space for static and working displays that honor veterans.

So please tell me # how this is different from #say , the Dayton hamfest (which is arrl sectioned).. # #Oh yea--
they charge admission to Dayton, they charge for booths, they charge for food too. and your not going to tell me that hams don't #us their radios while at Dayton.

[w6em]

Both of you are missing the point. Dayton and hamfests and the like don't pay amateurs or give them gratuities for on the air operation. AES and HRO and other dealers have stations set up and yes, we potential-customers can operate them. If an employee were to operate them, of course that would be different.

OK, sure, I guess if a ham were to show up in his mobile or be carrying his HT, there's nothing that says its illegal to have a QSO from inside or outside a Golden Corral.

However, since the Golden Corral apparently approached the author of this thread (his statement) to help them with their event, that clouds things somewhat. Then, if he, or any other ham accepts anything of value from Golden Corral for his being there and operating, then that's an issue. Does someone who talks over the air about Dayton get paid by the ARRL? Or receive a free hot dog for getting on the air and promoting the concession stand? No, I don't think so.

Free meals to hams would sure look like receiving something of material value for their operation. Sure seems clear to me. But, like I said, enjoy the cuisine.

Lee
W6EM

[w6em]

Quote[/b] (KB4TPP @ Aug. 29 2005,11:16)]I don't see anything there that states that if such communication benefits the ARRL or other 501.C.3 than it has the FCC's blessing. So by your interpretation, than getting anything that may be considered "material" while operating your station is a violation. If that is the case than Newington's mailbox should be full of pink slips.

Sorry, don't buy it. I think the spirit of the law was to prevent licencees from accepting direct payment for providing their communication services or using amateur radio in a fashion it is not intended for (such as a replacement for commercial radios, Nextel, etc.).

Working public service events and providing community service is essential to the growth and continued existence of the amateur radio service as whole.

Formulating excuses for not serving the community is not.
97.113(d) Allows Newington to pay its W1AW operators. #While I don't agree with that, it is permitted. #I clipped and posted it back on page 2.

Not everyone believes that its a public service event when a national restaurant chain asks to have amateurs come set up stations at their restaurants to 'help get the word out'. #Sounds more like an advertising service to a business.

At no place or time did I formulate an excuse or even imply one to discourage public service by any licensed amateur. #That is a completely bogus accusation.

In fact, I asked you and the other commenters collectively where the Number One amateur radio public service group affiliated with the Department of Defense, known collectively as the Military Affiliate Radio System, is with respect to this event. #The result: #Complete silence.

So, I can assume MARS isn't interested. #It must be aware, since the DOD link mentions last year's event. #So, I'll try asking again: #Why isn't MARS participating?

[wc4rav]

Motorola approached ARRL last fall seeking input on a BPL design
"Theory is great, but the final proof is in how things work out in practice," says ARRL Laboratory Manager Ed Hare, W1RFI, who's been working with Motorola Principal Staff Engineer Dick Illman, AH6EZ. It was an offhand suggestion from Hare that led Motorola to offer to install its system at ARRL to gauge its compatibility with Amateur Radio. Wanting to get as much firsthand information as possible about the performance of the Motorola system, the ARRL readily agreed.
A Motorola Powerline LV system was put into operation at Maxim Memorial Station W1AW this week.
Illman says that even though the early results were very encouraging, he's learned a lot in the process and has a few ideas on how to make Motorola's product even better.
taken from :http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2005/08/29/1/?nc=1

looks like the ARRL is helping a for profit company develope a commercial product . and is recivieng free use of a canaopy system for their efforts.

[wc4rav]

the Army mars web site hasn't been updated since
Updated
August 6, 2003
http://www.asc.army.mil/mars/news/index.htm

[n4xts]

Quote[/b] (w6em @ Aug. 30 2005,15:11)]Both of you are missing the point. Dayton and hamfests and the like don't pay amateurs or give them gratuities for on the air operation. AES and HRO and other dealers have stations set up and yes, we potential-customers can operate them. If an employee were to operate them, of course that would be different.

OK, sure, I guess if a ham were to show up in his mobile or be carrying his HT, there's nothing that says its illegal to have a QSO from inside or outside a Golden Corral.

However, since the Golden Corral apparently approached the author of this thread (his statement) to help them with their event, that clouds things somewhat. Then, if he, or any other ham accepts anything of value from Golden Corral for his being there and operating, then that's an issue. Does someone who talks over the air about Dayton get paid by the ARRL? Or receive a free hot dog for getting on the air and promoting the concession stand? No, I don't think so.

Free meals to hams would sure look like receiving something of material value for their operation. Sure seems clear to me. But, like I said, enjoy the cuisine.

Lee
W6EM
The Golden Corral is the location of an event. In no way are amateurs being comepensated for operating their stations any more so than a ham volunteer getting free food or admission to a hamfest for helping out. The amateur radio operators are being asked to support the military which I think anyone agrees is serving the community in a true form.

Amateurs aren't being compensated by GC to operate their station, they aren't being promised anything nor are they accepting any wages, tips or other forms of compensation.

Again, no difference here than any amateur radio operator volunteering for any event. I still don't see the issue.

[wc4rav]

I did a quick search of "amateur radio" and "golden coral"
and found that quite a number of clubs hold their meetings at golden corals- some even listed a talkin -
and you know what I bet ya clubmembers have to pay to dine there during the meeting .
is this a violation of part 97..
if so someone needs to tell the ARRL

[wc4rav]

[ Posted: Aug. 16 2005,14:20 #



I really shouldn't waste my time, but here goes.......

Chuck, please, let's not have MASS hysteria I wasn't "free with other people's money" at all. #Just a suggestion for a tax deductible donation for you to reduce your MASSive taxload.

Your quote of another ham's question seems reasonable, but has a few holes. #I won't get down and dirty with my comments, so here's my take on what KC4GS said.....

Volunteers probably donated the equipment. #Yes, their own equipment. #And, in perhaps their own personal vehicles. #And, their own time installing it all. #Not all that unusual. #Sure, the outfits he mentioned will gladly suggest a multi-site 800 or 900 MHz trunked system with a price tag of gazillions. #Assuming a typical trunked mobile at nearly $2000 per copy. #And, would such a system work in all the minivalleys across the ridges described elsewhere on this thread? #Nah. #Only on paper.

So, Chuck, cool off, stop the trolling and either thank the author for sharing his experience with us or **** out.

73,

Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL ] end qoute






hey lee just the other day you were on the other side of the fence about #community service..
do you just not like the Golden Coral or is it military folk you don't like.

[KU2S]

Quote[/b] (w6em @ Aug. 30 2005,18:11)]Both of you are missing the point. #Dayton and hamfests and the like don't pay amateurs or give them gratuities for on the air operation. #AES and HRO and other dealers have stations set up and yes, we potential-customers can operate them. #If an employee were to operate them, of course that would be different.

OK, sure, I guess if a ham were to show up in his mobile or be carrying his HT, there's nothing that says its illegal to have a QSO from inside or outside a Golden Corral.

However, since the Golden Corral apparently approached the author of this thread (his statement) to help them with their event, that clouds things somewhat. #Then, if he, or any other ham accepts anything of value from Golden Corral for his being there and operating, then that's an issue. #Does someone who talks over the air about Dayton get paid by the ARRL? #Or receive a free hot dog for getting on the air and promoting the concession stand? #No, I don't think so.

Free meals to hams would sure look like receiving something of material value for their operation. #Sure seems clear to me. #But, like I said, enjoy the cuisine.

Lee
W6EM
I think the main point here, is that Golden Corral is asking Amateurs to participate in an event that will, as an end result, benefit a commercial enterprise. However well-intentioned it is to honor our military members (and as a vet, believe me, I'd have appreciated it when I was on active duty), it's still an activity being carried on by a commercial entity to promote an event not related to amateur radio, and as such is extremely questionable when it comes to part 97 rules.

[w6em]

Quote[/b] (wc4rav @ Aug. 30 2005,00:58)]hey lee just the other day you were on the other side of the fence about #community service..
do you just not like the Golden Coral or is it military folk you don't like.
Actually, I don't dislike either. #I've had more than one meal at my local GC, and although I'm not a veteran, was a member of two MARS programs for a total of 20 years.

This isn't about likes or dislikes.

[w6em]

Quote[/b] (wc4rav @ Aug. 29 2005,23:52)]Motorola approached ARRL last fall seeking input on a BPL design
"Theory is great, but the final proof is in how things work out in practice," says ARRL Laboratory Manager Ed Hare, W1RFI, who's been working with Motorola Principal Staff Engineer Dick Illman, AH6EZ. It was an offhand suggestion from Hare that led Motorola to offer to install its system at ARRL to gauge its compatibility with Amateur Radio. Wanting to get as much firsthand information as possible about the performance of the Motorola system, the ARRL readily agreed.
A Motorola Powerline LV system was put into operation at Maxim Memorial Station W1AW this week.
Illman says that even though the early results were very encouraging, he's learned a lot in the process and has a few ideas on how to make Motorola's product even better.
taken from :http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2005/08/29/1/?nc=1

looks like the ARRL is helping #a for profit company develope a commercial product . and is recivieng free use of #a canaopy #system #for their efforts.
For some reason, you aren't able to separate what happens on the air from what happens off the air.

ARRL isn't plugging Motorola on-the-air via W1AW broadcasts.

What they're saying is being said on their website and perhaps in printed media (QST).

And, if they ask for contributions, its always via email, website or QST. #

If the advertising of the Golden Corral event were limited to here, perhaps the ARRL website, and eHam.Net, then there wouldn't be any possible issue.

You're trying to make this sound like 501c.3 organizations can't ask for donations or receive anything. #Even via off the air media. #That's just not the case at all.

And, it may not be an issue at all if whoever operates from their restaurants doesn't use the air time to identify where they are; doesn't invite other hams over (with the intent to purchase a meal); and doesn't accept any freebie meals for operating.

Lee
W6EM

[n4xts]

" The SOLE purpose of amateur radio involvement is to promote our hobby, pay tribute to those that serve in the Armed Forces, and to provide a public service. We want to use this opportunity to make QSO's of appreciation between locations nationwide, and with other amateur's. We will not be promoting the Golden Corral Chain in anyway, or inviting people to support the chain. This is a great opportunity to demonstrate our hobby.

Last year amateur radio was invited to run special event stations from these restaurants as a means of exposing ham radio to the public, and as a way to say thanks to those that serve in a live forum. The event was announced to amateur's on short notice, however we were able to make our presence a success. As a result, of our involvement, we have been asked to expand our presence nationwide so that more people can witness amateur radio first hand."

Okay, so where does this say that amateur radio operators will be given anything (free food, etc)? Where does this say that amateurs will be "advertising Golden Corral"? Nowhere, what is DOES say is that this is an opportunity to put ham radio in the public view, and show our support for the troops. Operating your ham station from GC is no different than operating your station from a shopping mall, HRO, AES or anywhere, so long as you aren't using your station for compensation (in any form) you aren't violating any section of part 97.

This sounds like nothing more than Field Day. So I guess this means you can't run Field Day stations from any business. This includes RV Parks, campsites, or other public places that generate revenue because by your logic this means you are "advertising" for the venue. Please, this is lame.

Speaking of Public Service events, I will be operating my station in direct support of the US 10K Classic on Labor Day. All volunteers get free food (oh no, can't have that) and free admission to White Water Amusement Park (oh...guess our only saving grace is that the park is CLOSED to the general public) on race day. I am awaiting my pink slip for doing community service...

For those who wish to serve the community and put ham radio in a positive light, see you there this Labor Day.
http://us10k.wc4rav.org