View Full Version : Both parties must address issues
KW4MW
07-19-2005, 01:13 PM
Now I have never met Jack Quinn but I believe him to be quite intelligent. #Jack says he spent 40 years in the Army rising from private to general. #Here is his op ed piece as it appeared in the Florida Times Union
POLITICS: Both parties must address issues (http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/071905/opl_19271974.shtml)
I can agree with most of what this fella has to say ... BUT...
Then I came to this sentence...
"Whether George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan or Jimmy Carter, we owe them our respect while they are our commanders in chief." (emphasis added)
Maybe they taught me something in the Navy that they didn't teach the Army folks... But I have to respectfully disagree with the comment above... and it isn't taken out of context... It was a paragraph all by itself, so it must stand as is...
I don't now, nor did I while in the Military, OWE anyONE anything. I was required to show respect for an officer's position, but respect for the officer came only after they had shown themselves to be worthy. Respect, my friends, is earned. It cannot be demanded, well at least not successfully. And, I have found that those who demand respect the loudest are those who have earned it the least.
I knew one LT. who constantly was demanding respect. I was just an E-5 at the time and this dork decided to pass classified information over a non-secure radio circuit. I warned him the first time, I warned him and notified my Division Officer the second time, and the third time I wrote him up for security violations threatening the safety of a Navy ship at sea. And then I refused to resind the report when requested by the other senior officers on the ship. The Skipper restricted him to his stateroom ( I had 6 witnesses ) and ordered him off the ship when we arrived in port... He had refused to learn, he had tried to bully me, and it destroyed his military career.
No Person, no matter their position, can demand my respect. It must be earned.
With that said, I do realize that certain folks have gained offices or positions that have my respect. That is I have respect for the office or position. But, when they use those offices and positions to degrade and demean our country and when they lower the respect the rest of the world has for our great country, then the individual holding that office does NOT have my respect.
I learned something a long time ago that some folks just don't seem to be able to understand. Lies don't work. And when you lie to an entire country and the you lie to other governments and their representitives and send your minions to lie to the entire United Nations, then ya just ain't gonna get a lot of respect. Particularly when it costs thousands of live to back up your lies and 10s of thousands of permanently disabled young people to back up those lies. No respect here for those who treat America's youth in such a cheap fashion.
There was McKinley and the USS Maine, FDR and Pearl Harbor, Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin, and now we have Bush and Iraq. All lied to the country to start a war. And the people believed the lies at the time just as a good percentage of the people belived Bush's lies.
The Harvard Professor of Philosophy and author George Santayana wrote:
"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
and folks we are being "doomed" more and more every day.... It scares the Hell outta me... particularly when some partisans among us run around demanding respect for those who have not earned it.
KE7DFP
07-19-2005, 09:17 PM
That's only your opinion Bush lied, it is not fact. You had your vote, now support.
Quote[/b] (KE7DFP @ July 19 2005,16:17)]That's only your opinion Bush lied, it is not fact. You had your vote, now support.
Nope, it is fact and I proved it some month ago on here... I don't think you were around then, but I did it with facts and quotes from Bush's, Rice's and their cohorts own words... If ya want the links to those discussions I can probably dig them up... but it isn't a good idea to challange me... I don't use half truths and garbage sayings to back up my opinions... I use quotes from those of whom I speak, and I use them IN context...
The man lied, his staff lied and those who back those lies haven't done their homework... or are blinded by partisan beliefs...
I suggest you ask some of the old timers on here if you doubt what I am saying... I don't usually flap my jaw without doing my homework...
I'll support Bush in Afghanistan... That was the right thing to do, but Iraq was wrong... and again I can prove it to those who will believe the facts... There simply was no justification for the Iraq invasion once you eliminate the faked documents and lies about what certain picture showed...
Quote[/b] (N0PU @ July 19 2005,14:33)]Quote[/b] (KE7DFP @ July 19 2005,16:17)]That's only your opinion Bush lied, it is not fact. You had your vote, now support.
Nope, it is fact and I proved it some month ago on here... I don't think you were around then, but I did it with facts and quotes from Bush's, Rice's and their cohorts own words... If ya want the links to those discussions I can probably dig them up... but it isn't a good idea to challange me... I don't use half truths and garbage sayings to back up my opinions... I use quotes from those of whom I speak, and I use them IN context...
The man lied, his staff lied and those who back those lies haven't done their homework... or are blinded by partisan beliefs...
I suggest you ask some of the old timers on here if you doubt what I am saying... I don't usually flap my jaw without doing my homework...
I'll support Bush in Afghanistan... That was the right thing to do, but Iraq was wrong... and again I can prove it to those who will believe the facts... There simply was no justification for the Iraq invasion once you eliminate the faked documents and lies about what certain picture showed...
N0PU: A year ago I would have thought your opinions stink. Now they make me think. What a difference a year makes.
KC2KFC
07-19-2005, 10:49 PM
Quote[/b] (N0PU @ July 19 2005,14:33)]Quote[/b] (KE7DFP @ July 19 2005,16:17)]That's only your opinion Bush lied, it is not fact. You had your vote, now support.
Nope, it is fact and I proved it some month ago on here... I don't think you were around then, but I did it with facts and quotes from Bush's, Rice's and their cohorts own words... If ya want the links to those discussions I can probably dig them up...
Harry,
If you can find them that would be great. I just tried doing some searching under your call, but I couldn't find anything. I would enjoy reading those.
Edit: What I was searching for was the thread, but I now see the history of threads does not go back to last year. If you have the links to the articles, speeches and other info I think that would make for some interesting reading.
OK, this may take awile so I'll be editing and re-editing this note as I find them so I can test that they actually work the way I think they will...
Near the bottom of this page (kinda short but a start):
http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin....6;st=10 (http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=62406;st=10)
This one was kinda interesting... (no meat yet, but I'll find it):
http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin....hl=n0pu (http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=62520;hl=n0pu)
This is an interesting thread... It expresses some of my views and what other thought of it at the time... and has a few good quotes in it...
http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin....=0]http (http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=62416;st=0]http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=62416;st=0)
Rather than try to find all the links... (Two hours searching is enough!) I'll just rebuild a short example... enough to be effective...
Quote[/b] ]"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent.” State of the Union Address – 1/28/2003
I don't think we found ANY of the above that wasn't sent there by the UN teams as samples for comparison... and that sure as hell wasn't 500 tons...
Quote[/b] ]“U.S. intelligence indicates that Saddam Hussein had upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents.” State of the Union Address – 1/28/2003
Didn't find even one of those... and the two or three that were claimed to have been found were manufactured in the days of Bush #1... not in the scope of what Bush #2 was talking about..
Quote[/b] ]“We have also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas." State of the Union Address – 1/28/2003
Ahhh... none of those either...
Quote[/b] ]"Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications and statements by people now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of Al Qaida." State of the Union Address – 1/28/2003
Nope...Sadam didn't trust bin laden or Al Qaida...
Quote[/b] ]"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." State of the Union Address – 1/28/2003
Well we know what that was all about now, don't we? The documents implied were known at the time by Bush to be forged and not credible.
Quote[/b] ]"We know he's been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons, and we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." VP Dick Cheney – “Meet the Press” 3/16/2003
Hmmmm... not this either...
Quote[/b] ]"We gave him a chance to allow the inspectors in, and he wouldn't let them in." Bush Press Conference 7/14/2003
Seems to be a problem here too... UN inspectors went into Iraq to search for possible weapons violations from December 2002 into March 2003
And more recently...
Quote[/b] ]"[Castro] welcomes sex tourism," Bush told a room of law enforcement officials in Florida, according to the Los Angeles Times. "Here's how he bragged about the industry," Bush said. "This is his quote: 'Cuba has the cleanest and most educated prostitutes in the world.'"
Quote[/b] ]
"As it turns out, Bush had lifted that quotation not from an actual Castro speech but rather from a 2001 essay written by then Dartmouth University undergraduate Charles Trumbull. In the essay, Trumbull did appear to quote a Castro speech about prostitution. Sadly, the student made the quotation up.
"According to officials, the actual quotation from Castro's 1992 speech reads as follows: 'There are hookers, but prostitution is not allowed in our country. There are no women forced to sell themselves to a man, to a foreigner, to a tourist. Those who do so do it on their own, voluntarily. We can say that they are highly educated hookers and quite healthy, because we are the country with the lowest number of AIDS cases.'"
"...And this isn't the first time the Internet has baffled Bush. Back in 2003, the President cited another student's thesis when making a case to go to war. The student's [plagiarized and "sexed up"] work ended up in a government document describing Iraq's weapons capability. Not exactly the kind of hard intelligence needed to justify an attack on another country." The Register, 07.28.04
And it goes on and on... I haven't the time to document it all (There just is way too much), but this'll give ya a sample... When I need more for a discussion, I'll go find it... I really like that last quote by The Register ... "...the internet has Baffled Bush." He just can't steal other people's work an get away with it... Ya can find it in minutes on the internet.... Ain't communications a wonderful thing!
I can't stand a liar, be he President, or a bum asking for a handout... Ask me for money for food and I'll whisk by ya, be honest and ask me for money for bottle of Ripple ( Do they still make that stuff?) and I'll probably give ya a buck or two... at least ya didn't lie to me...
What really bothers me is that our whole history is built on lies. We lied to the American Indians over and over again... McKinley lied to start a war, FDR, Johnson, and if I dig hard enough and deep enough I'll bet I could prove that every single President since Lincoln has lied to the American people to achieve some objective that may or may not have been correct to accomplish... and I'm not so sure about Honest Abe... I sure wouldn't buy a car from some guy calling himself Honest John...
This middle east thing is a problem that we brought on ourselves with our lies... It started back at the turn of the century and I don't remember the specifics but we lied to the Arabs about Oil... I think it was Standard Oil that started it but I may be wrong, I'll have to look it up again... But that was the begining... and then we did stupid stuff like supporting regimes that supported our getting oil, even tho they had policies that were against their own people... People like Bin Laden actually have a legit beef against some of what we have done over there ... I don't agree with their tactics but their reason when you take all the hate off of it has some validity... We, as a country, have been walking all over people for a century or more and folks, it is coming back to roost at our own doorstep...
WE MUST QUIT LYING !!!
AND
WE MUST START TREATING OTHERS FAIRLY !!!
OR
We are gonna see worse days ahead.... Mark my word...
Quote[/b] ]WE MUST QUIT LYING !!!
AND
WE MUST START TREATING OTHERS FAIRLY !!!
OR
We are gonna see worse days ahead.... Mark my word...
Very Wise Words.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Hmmmmm...
Almost 24 hours and no Bush supporters wanna tango?
I wonder why?
Where have they all gone...
Well, we'll just bring this topic to the top one last time and see what happens... My bet....nothing...
Facts wins out over lies every time...
The lie is generally irrelevant when it comes to whether one should support the war in Iraq. Either you think we should have deposed Saddam and freed the Iraqi people or you don't.
If Americans were told that Hitler planned to attack the US and that ended up being false, would it have been wrong to fight Hitler anyway? I don't think so. I'd prefer the truth, certainly, but I don't think the lie was deliberate. In any case, the result, IMO, was correct.
Quote[/b] (N0PU @ July 20 2005,01:58)]Rather than try to find all the links... (Two hours searching is enough!) I'll just rebuild a short example... enough to be effective...
Quote[/b] ]"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent.” State of the Union Address – 1/28/2003
I don't think we found ANY of the above that wasn't sent there by the UN teams as samples for comparison... and that sure as hell wasn't 500 tons...
Quote[/b] ]“U.S. intelligence indicates that Saddam Hussein had upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents.” State of the Union Address – 1/28/2003
Didn't find even one of those... and the two or three that were claimed to have been found were manufactured in the days of Bush #1... not in the scope of what Bush #2 was talking about..
Quote[/b] ]“We have also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas." State of the Union Address – 1/28/2003
Ahhh... none of those either...
Quote[/b] ]"Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications and statements by people now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of Al Qaida." State of the Union Address – 1/28/2003
Nope...Sadam didn't trust bin laden or Al Qaida...
Quote[/b] ]"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." State of the Union Address – 1/28/2003
Well we know what that was all about now, don't we? The documents implied were known at the time by Bush to be forged and not credible.
Quote[/b] ]"We know he's been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons, and we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." VP Dick Cheney – “Meet the Press” 3/16/2003
Hmmmm... not this either...
Quote[/b] ]"We gave him a chance to allow the inspectors in, and he wouldn't let them in." Bush Press Conference 7/14/2003
Seems to be a problem here too... UN inspectors went into Iraq to search for possible weapons violations from December 2002 into March 2003
And more recently...
Quote[/b] ]"[Castro] welcomes sex tourism," Bush told a room of law enforcement officials in Florida, according to the Los Angeles Times. "Here's how he bragged about the industry," Bush said. "This is his quote: 'Cuba has the cleanest and most educated prostitutes in the world.'"
Quote[/b] ]
"As it turns out, Bush had lifted that quotation not from an actual Castro speech but rather from a 2001 essay written by then Dartmouth University undergraduate Charles Trumbull. In the essay, Trumbull did appear to quote a Castro speech about prostitution. Sadly, the student made the quotation up.
"According to officials, the actual quotation from Castro's 1992 speech reads as follows: 'There are hookers, but prostitution is not allowed in our country. There are no women forced to sell themselves to a man, to a foreigner, to a tourist. Those who do so do it on their own, voluntarily. We can say that they are highly educated hookers and quite healthy, because we are the country with the lowest number of AIDS cases.'"
"...And this isn't the first time the Internet has baffled Bush. Back in 2003, the President cited another student's thesis when making a case to go to war. The student's [plagiarized and "sexed up"] work ended up in a government document describing Iraq's weapons capability. Not exactly the kind of hard intelligence needed to justify an attack on another country." The Register, 07.28.04
And it goes on and on... I haven't the time to document it all (There just is way too much), but this'll give ya a sample... When I need more for a discussion, I'll go find it... I really like that last quote by The Register ... "...the internet has Baffled Bush." He just can't steal other people's work an get away with it... Ya can find it in minutes on the internet.... Ain't communications a wonderful thing!
I can't stand a liar, be he President, or a bum asking for a handout... Ask me for money for food and I'll whisk by ya, be honest and ask me for money for bottle of Ripple ( Do they still make that stuff?) and I'll probably give ya a buck or two... at least ya didn't lie to me...
What really bothers me is that our whole history is built on lies. We lied to the American Indians over and over again... McKinley lied to start a war, FDR, Johnson, and if I dig hard enough and deep enough I'll bet I could prove that every single President since Lincoln has lied to the American people to achieve some objective that may or may not have been correct to accomplish... and I'm not so sure about Honest Abe... I sure wouldn't buy a car from some guy calling himself Honest John...
This middle east thing is a problem that we brought on ourselves with our lies... It started back at the turn of the century and I don't remember the specifics but we lied to the Arabs about Oil... I think it was Standard Oil that started it but I may be wrong, I'll have to look it up again... But that was the begining... and then we did stupid stuff like supporting regimes that supported our getting oil, even tho they had policies that were against their own people... People like Bin Laden actually have a legit beef against some of what we have done over there ... I don't agree with their tactics but their reason when you take all the hate off of it has some validity... We, as a country, have been walking all over people for a century or more and folks, it is coming back to roost at our own doorstep...
WE MUST QUIT LYING !!!
AND
WE MUST START TREATING OTHERS FAIRLY !!!
OR
We are gonna see worse days ahead.... Mark my word...
Harry,
THANK YOU!
That has to one of the BEST posts I have ever read here. You did your homeowrk and brought out the facts.
Thank You!
Gordon
N6WK
K6UEY
07-21-2005, 01:38 AM
NØPU,
Harry, Possibly one reason you haven't got more objections from the far right wing,I read the first four or five,and the facts to back up the statement were not facts but the usual processed cattle feed that the Left wing Liberals always try to confuse the issue with,I did not read any further,having been there and done that before.
Sorry Charlie,that fish won't fry!!
Reciepts were found after the invasion for the materials to make VX and Saran, however the agents were never found,do we assume Saddam being such a nice guy destroyed the agents,or do you think he hid them and they have yet to be found?? Remember he had 12 years to dig a hole ,while the UN played footsie,and collected their oil kick backs.
Again reciepts were found with memos for equipment to train AQ members at the isolated aircraft site in the desert and were confirmed by Iraqi Military.
The fleet of unmanned aerial vehicles were discovered and displayed on American television.
The British Report that Saddam sent an Ambassador to Niger to buy quantities of processable Urainium. We now know that Joe "Yellowcake " Wilson was sent to investigate and #he lied in the report to the CIA in an effort to discredit President Bush
Sorry Charlie I did not go any farther,as they say when the tub runs over the top," Enuff is Enuff". #
Seems that you make a "tria junc ta in uno"with N6WK and W8EFA #being the only ones who believe all that stuff that the Left hands out.Sorry I'm sure Barbara Boxer and Ted Kennedy buy into it also. # # # # # # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
UEY:
Show me the references to the receipts, show me the dates... If they are Bush 1 era stuff, then I want some of what yer smokin'...
I been waitin' for ya.... thought ya'd never show up... But I KNEW ya couldn't resist...
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
W2ILP
07-21-2005, 02:48 AM
As a soldier for 40 years Jack has formed the opinion that is not an option for a soldier to form. The soldier MUST agree with the chain of command that is outranks him. The president of the U.S. is his commander. There is no way he can didrespect his leaders...or not follow orders...
BUT
as a civilian in a democracy we can say what we believe to be true about a president who has lied to us..or if he did not lie to us he is petty dumb because he believed what he wanted to believe and thought that he could make us all believe it as well. Some of us didn't think that overthrownig Hussaain was the right stratagy from the start, even if he did have WMDs. We can not follow a leader who is either a liar or a crazy man or a puppet of liars or crazy men. It is the job of every informed citizen (but not every uniformed soldier) to critisize our leadership when we see fit to do so. Our democratic (small d) history shows that presidents have always been critisized by the press, the public and certainly by opposing political parties.... Sometimes for minor errors...sometimes for private matters...and sometimes for poor judgement in international affairs. Much of this critism was trivial..some was dead wrong...but some was the cause of not impeachment but of replacing the president at the next opportunity, denying him political support in congress and in short making a lame duck out of him.
Our president IMHO has reacted to 9/11 in a way that only increases the probability of further terrorism. Most of us can realize that now...BUT a close election resulted in returning Bush to the White House...maybe because there was no clear choice...and maybe because patriotism had blinded many voters who were afraid to critisize Bush.
Well "GUNG HO' for them...because Bush still will not admit his mistakes, and Bush still thinks that he has most of us so busy respecting him as a war time leader that we will forget about his lies.
Just like Clinton...Bush now wraps himself in the flag and tells Blacks what good he has done for them. Expecting them to think of subjects that he was not responsible for and to ignore his lies.
Bush has given a tax break that has bought him votes from ....the rich who benefit temporarily and from the middle class who don't understand that the tax break does little for them directly, and the poor who don't pay taxes anyway. So Bush has relied on the ignorance of the average American voters to swallow his WMD lies and to accept a tax break for the rich as a gift to them from Bush (that they will eventually have to pay for during the regium of another president). Bush has also played subtly on the religious convictions of many Americans and used them like a tent preacher to gain hypnotic support of the gullible.
I respect our president well enough not to personally hate him BUt I don't think he respects the collective intelligence of the people of the U.S.
I give my respect to Senator Byrd. He respects the distinguished gentlemen on the other side of the aisle...BUT he slowly disagrees with them more often than not. Republicans don't seem to respect him much or heed what he says. I wonder why??? He is not a new kid on the block.
...and tha'ts a fact Jack.
w2ilp (Incite "Loyal" Politicians)...they need to wake up.
Enuf said.
ILP:
IM(not so)HO, you are right on track...
I wish more folks would open their eyes and see what is really going on around them...
UEY:
Still waiting for data on those receipts... I need some dates here so I can look into this... It is in your best interest to provide the data... You might have me on this one... You might be able to humble me... Or are you just repeating the same old worn out propaganda started by your heros in the White House...
Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ July 20 2005,20:38)]Reciepts were found after the invasion for the materials to make VX and Saran, however the agents were never found,do we assume Saddam being such a nice guy destroyed the agents,or do you think he hid them and they have yet to be found??
UEY:
I'm getting worried now. Are we living in different dimensions that only meet at the vertex of QRZ.com?
I still can't find any reference to those receipts. Clue me in here, educate me with facts! I'm willing to learn.
Quote[/b] (N0PU @ July 27 2005,01:19)]Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ July 20 2005,20:38)]Reciepts were found after the invasion for the materials to make VX and Saran, however the agents were never found,do we assume Saddam being such a nice guy destroyed the agents,or do you think he hid them and they have yet to be found??
UEY:
I'm getting worried now. Are we living in different dimensions that only meet at the vertex of QRZ.com?
I still can't find any reference to those receipts. Clue me in here, educate me with facts! I'm willing to learn.
Harry,
Breathe while you are waiting. I'm afraid you are turning <span style='color:blue'>BLUE</span>
I have a feeling it was "Made Up" and there will be no receipts forthcoming.