Democratic "winds of change" in the Middle East. [Archive]

KG6JTB

06-20-2005, 12:52 PM

Lets see....

1. Open local elections in Saudi Arabia.

2. Run-off elections in Iran.

3. First woman cabinet member in Kuwait.

4. First democratic election in Afghanistan and Iraq.

And these are just the headlines. You think any of this would have happened without U.S. involvement in Iraq?

I'm tired of the short sightedness of some Americans who want quick results and us to simply leave. It'll take 10 years to see wide scale change and a stable Iraq. Even our government didn't stabilize domestically for 25 years after signing of the constitution. The same enemy brought us war again in 1812.

We should be blessed that the majority of Iraqi people are cohesively working together. I think we could draw our forces down, but not by X-mas of next year as many in congress would like to see. These morons are just trying to win their mid-term elections.

"Resolve" is word few in the western world understand. Europe doesn't get it.

Rant over.

Dave
KG6JTB

W5MJL

06-20-2005, 12:55 PM

Hurray. Someone on this board actually understands it.

ve2nsm

06-20-2005, 01:50 PM

Quote[/b] (KG6JTB @ June 20 2005,08:52)]Lets see....

1. Open local elections in Saudi Arabia.

2. Run-off elections in Iran.

3. First woman cabinet member in Kuwait.

4. First democratic election in Afghanistan and Iraq.

And these are just the headlines. You think any of this would have happened without U.S. involvement in Iraq?
Now a question.

What difference does it make to you, that this or that coutry has a different culture and/or political system ?

What are you a missionary? Trying to spread the "american way" all over the world? In that sense you're not that different from the few (because they are only a few) crazy muslim extremists that want to "hunt and kill the infidel" and it's exactly why the global public opinion is against the US policies.

Rant over http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

KA8NCR

06-20-2005, 02:15 PM

Quote[/b] ]
Lets see....

1. Open local elections in Saudi Arabia.

In a hybrid monarchy/aristocracy, which mean that the candidates are hand-picked by someone affiliated with the crown.

Quote[/b] ]
2. Run-off elections in Iran.

Possibly a good sign, although I think the political process is very, very far from free.

Quote[/b] ]
3. First woman cabinet member in Kuwait.

Kuwait has always been among the most liberal societies of any Arab nation. I doubt this is a harbinger of anything substantial for that country.

Quote[/b] ]
4. First democratic election in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Well yeah, we paid a heck of a lot of money and lives for that to happen. It BETTER!

Quote[/b] ]
And these are just the headlines. You think any of this would have happened without U.S. involvement in Iraq?

Just the last three; as I said, Kuwait was already the most liberal and the free elections were caused by American muscle. The other ones, I don't think we'll affect any change unless we take the same route we have in Afghanistan and Iraq. And I really don't care as long as the Muslim extremists are kept in check.

Quote[/b] ]
I'm tired of the short sightedness of some Americans who want quick results and us to simply leave. It'll take 10 years to see wide scale change and a stable Iraq. Even our government didn't stabilize domestically for 25 years after signing of the constitution. The same enemy brought us war again in 1812.

We should be blessed that the majority of Iraqi people are cohesively working together. I think we could draw our forces down, but not by X-mas of next year as many in congress would like to see. These morons are just trying to win their mid-term elections.

"Resolve" is word few in the western world understand. Europe doesn't get it.

I have to agree with you there. I think most of the people who think the war was wrong pretty much accept that we've created the mess, now we have no choice in cleaning it up.

I doubt however, that we'll be out of Iraq in anything less than five years. The US took the most powerful political, social and religious group (and a minority at that) and unseated them. They're not happy about it, they're wealthy and they're hell-bent on causing problems. If the US makes appeasement gestures toward the, the other groups get their titties in a wringer and cause problems. Appease them, someone else starts shooting.

We're there, we caused it and we need to fix it.

KG6JTB

06-20-2005, 05:22 PM

Oh, I forgot one. Syria out of Lebanon.

Think the winds of change are blowing there too?

Dave
KG6JTB

k6bbc

06-20-2005, 05:32 PM

I DON'T CARE.

AK7V

06-20-2005, 07:52 PM

Quote[/b] (ve2nsm @ June 20 2005,06:50)]Quote[/b] (KG6JTB @ June 20 2005,08:52)]Lets see....

1. Open local elections in Saudi Arabia.

2. Run-off elections in Iran.

3. First woman cabinet member in Kuwait.

4. First democratic election in Afghanistan and Iraq.

And these are just the headlines. You think any of this would have happened without U.S. involvement in Iraq?
Now a question.

What difference does it make to you, that this or that coutry has a different culture and/or political system ?

What are you a missionary? Trying to spread the "american way" all over the world? In that sense you're not that different from the few (because they are only a few) crazy muslim extremists that want to "hunt and kill the infidel" and it's exactly why the global public opinion is against the US policies.

Rant over http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
We'll remember your position if Canada is ever taken over by a regeime that forbids your voting rights, culture, freedom, etc.

ve2nsm

06-20-2005, 08:03 PM

Quote[/b] (AC6XA @ June 20 2005,15:52)]Quote[/b] (ve2nsm @ June 20 2005,06:50)]Quote[/b] (KG6JTB @ June 20 2005,08:52)]Lets see....

1. Open local elections in Saudi Arabia.

2. Run-off elections in Iran.

3. First woman cabinet member in Kuwait.

4. First democratic election in Afghanistan and Iraq.

And these are just the headlines. You think any of this would have happened without U.S. involvement in Iraq?
Now a question.

What difference does it make to you, that this or that coutry has a different culture and/or political system ?

What are you a missionary? Trying to spread the "american way" all over the world? In that sense you're not that different from the few (because they are only a few) crazy muslim extremists that want to "hunt and kill the infidel" and it's exactly why the global public opinion is against the US policies.

Rant over http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
We'll remember your position if Canada is ever taken over by a regeime that forbids your voting rights, culture, freedom, etc.
So why don't you go down to Cuba and take over Castro... to China? Venezuela? Zimbabwe? North Korea?

Naaaaaaaaah, nothing to gain there. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

W2ILP

06-20-2005, 11:04 PM

ka8ncr is correct in his assessment of so called imagined benefits of U.S. intervention in the middle east. Israel is still hated by Muslims in Lebanon and by Syrians who never signed a peace treaty after the UAR was defeated by Israel. Israel is hated by the majority of Muslims everywhere. Israel must do more than they have been doing to neutralize this hatred.

As I said in another post on another thread... We are not finished in securing Afghanistan from Muslim terrorists and their trainer Bin Laden. IMHO even if we do capture or kill Bin Laden terrorism will continue...just as it continued after we captured Saddam Hussain and after Arafat died.

w2ilp ((Identify Loyal Palistinians?)

k6bbc

06-20-2005, 11:47 PM

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ June 20 2005,16:04)]Israel must do more than they have been doing to neutralize this hatred.
Like what???

I think the winds of freedom in the Middle East is a nasty FART.

K6BBC

al2i

06-21-2005, 12:05 AM

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ June 20 2005,16:47)]Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ June 20 2005,16:04)]Israel must do more than they have been doing to neutralize this hatred.
Like what???

I think the winds of freedom in the Middle East is a nasty FART.

K6BBC
I don't think there is any way to reduce hatred of Israel. It abides sublime in the hearts of a billion or more people. Perhaps with enough other activities, the billion obsessive haters could be a little less obsessed.

I don't understand why the hatred is so extreme, but it is.

73,
Dave/al2i

k4kyv

06-21-2005, 12:22 AM

Well and good that Saddam is out of the picture. The world is undoubtedly better off without him. But why is it that the people living in the U.S. are expected to willingly bear the major expense, in financial terms, as well as in human lives?

W8EFA

06-21-2005, 12:28 AM

Quote[/b] (k4kyv @ June 20 2005,17:22)]Well and good that Saddam is out of the picture. #The world is undoubtedly better off without him. #But why is it that the people living in the U.S. are expected to willingly bear the major expense, in financial terms, as well as in human lives?
Because the rest of the world did not support a Regime change by invasion?

W2ILP

06-21-2005, 12:51 AM

Like what must Israel do...////.

1) Remove all settlements from Gaza and the West Bank and return land to Palistinians.
2) Share Jewrusalem with Muslims, while continuing to permit all faiths to visit holy land shrines.
3) Pay promised reparations to Palistinians that were never paid.
4) Adjust any divider between Israel and Palistine according to directions of the U.N.
5) Adjust border with Lebanon to directions of U.N.

Let the "chosen people" of their "promised land" keep their promises to other humans.
Let them beat their helicoptors and tanks into crop dusters and farm tractors.
Let there be no war no more.
Enuf sed.

w2ilp (Isreal Lacks Peace)

KE7DFP

06-21-2005, 01:21 AM

Quote[/b] (ve2nsm @ June 20 2005,13:03)]So why don't you go down to Cuba and take over Castro... to China? Venezuela? Zimbabwe? North Korea?

Naaaaaaaaah, nothing to gain there. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
How about we take over Canada? Now there's a war we could get some oil out of. Once we liberate the people from the socialist ,commie, strangle hold, we could install a democracy. I'm sure the masses would rise in a popular popular movement just to get rid of the sales tax. We could even set up a free press where folks could actually get two sides of the story..........I know, we will bring them .....FOX NEWS. disclaimer: this message is only political Parody and does not reflect the opinions of my goverment. Stuart Smilley

k6bbc

06-21-2005, 01:32 AM

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ June 20 2005,17:51)]Like what must Israel do...////.

1) Remove all settlements from Gaza and the West Bank and return land to Palistinians.
2) Share Jewrusalem with Muslims, while continuing to permit all faiths to visit holy land shrines.
3) Pay promised reparations to Palistinians that were never paid.
4) Adjust any divider between Israel and Palistine according to directions of the U.N.
5) Adjust border with Lebanon to directions of U.N.

Let the "chosen people" of their "promised land" keep their promises to other humans.
Let them beat their helicoptors and tanks into crop dusters and farm tractors.
Let there be no war no more.
Enuf sed.

w2ilp (Isreal Lacks Peace)
Like most ignorant, uneducated people, you have no knowledge of history, recent or otherwise.

Point one: Return land to what Palistinians? The land you speak of was occupied after war was declared on Israel by the UAR – a blockade is an act of war. The land you refer to was part of A, Egypt, B, Jordan, C, Syria. There was no country Palestine in 1967. And further more, if there is ever to be a Palestine, it will be because of Israel, not Egypt, Jordon, or Syria.

Point two: Share Jerusalem – like the Arabs did prior to June 1967?

Point three: Pay reparation – says who? The UN? The most anti-Semitic organization in the world?

Point four: Adjust borders per UN – see point three.

Point five: see point three and four.

Your sarcastic reference to “chosen people” clearly indicated your bigotry.

Nuff said.

K6BBC

al2i

06-21-2005, 01:36 AM

W5MJL

06-21-2005, 01:39 AM

Quote[/b] ]I don't think anything the Israelis do will defuse the hatred of their existence but I hope they will eventually find a way.

73,
#Dave/al2i
I agree.

al2i

06-21-2005, 01:40 AM

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ June 20 2005,18:32)]Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ June 20 2005,17:51)]Like what must Israel do...////.

1) Remove all settlements from Gaza and the West Bank and return land to Palistinians.
2) Share Jewrusalem with Muslims, while continuing to permit all faiths to visit holy land shrines.
3) Pay promised reparations to Palistinians that were never paid.
4) Adjust any divider between Israel and Palistine according to directions of the U.N.
5) Adjust border with Lebanon to directions of U.N.

Let the "chosen people" of their "promised land" keep their promises to other humans.
Let them beat their helicoptors and tanks into crop dusters and farm tractors.
Let there be no war no more.
Enuf sed.

w2ilp (Isreal Lacks Peace)

*** Censored ***

Point one: Return land to what Palistinians? The land you speak of was occupied after war was declared on Israel by the UAR – a blockade is an act of war. The land you refer to was part of A, Egypt, B, Jordan, C, Syria. There was no country Palestine in 1967. And further more, if there is ever to be a Palestine, it will be because of Israel, not Egypt, Jordon, or Syria.

Point two: Share Jerusalem – like the Arabs did prior to June 1967?

Point three: Pay reparation – says who? The UN? The most anti-Semitic organization in the world?

Point four: Adjust borders per UN – see point three.

Point five: see point three and four.

*** Censored ***

Nuff said.

K6BBC
I agree on all your points BBC, but attacking ILP in the sentances before and after your point list is counter-productive. There is an edit function.

73,
Dave/al2i

KG6JTB

06-21-2005, 01:56 AM

Quote[/b] ]Because the rest of the world did not support a Regime change by invasion?

No, they supported a dictator by weaseling out of the U.N. resolutions from the 91 gulf war, and corruptly lining their pockets under the guise of oil for food.

Quote[/b] ]Your sarcastic reference to “chosen people” clearly indicated your bigotry.

Wow, I agree with K6BBC on something #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Dave
KG6JTB

W5MJL

06-21-2005, 01:58 AM

I thought ILP mentioned he was Jewish.

KG6JTB

06-21-2005, 02:13 AM

Quote[/b] ]I thought ILP mentioned he was Jewish.

That maybe... I met many Jewish folks that were anti-Israel.

Dave
KG6JTB

al2i

06-21-2005, 02:23 AM

Quote[/b] (KG6JTB @ June 20 2005,19:13)]Quote[/b] ]I thought ILP mentioned he was Jewish.

That maybe... I met many Jewish folks that were anti-Israel.

Dave
KG6JTB
Good grief! I didn't even think he was anti-Israel, much less anti-Jewish.

The rapidity with which the bigot label is trotted out here is stunning.

It is like being in a lynch mob or on a witch hunt.

I have had people try to lable me as liberal, conservative, anti-Jewish, anti-Islam and Christian.

Slow down on the labels.

W2ILP

06-21-2005, 05:18 AM

k6bbc

Calling me ignorant can not help you prove your point. Do you call everyone who does not agree with you ignorant? I told you that I respect your opinion. I do not call you names.
I only try to explain why I have a point of view that differs from yours. IMHO You should not be posting here if you thiok that many of us are ignorant.

Gentlemen please read my related posts on the other QRZ threads. I will not try to again explain that there is a dfference between a Jew by ancestory. ...a Jew by religion...a Jew by nationality...and a racial Jew...and a brain washed AK Jew. Yep...I am a Jew by Hitler's definition...but I chose to be an American secular humanist by my own outlook on the world and my own education and my own studies of modern Isralei history. Like many Americans of Jewish ancestory I foolishly contributed to Israel up until 1967. At that time I became disgusted because the Israelis would not give back the Palestinians territory that they had captured. This was against U.N. directives and many American Jews not only stopped supporting Israel.. but some even took up a full page advertisment in the New York Times to explain why they could no longer support Israel.

At the thrust of the United States Israel's Sharon is trying to make peace with the Palistinian leadership right now. But the Palistinians and the Israelis do not trust each other to keep that peace for long. First off Israel needs to get rid of blood-thirsty Sharon before they can negociate with a clean slate. Arafat died and now Sharon should retire to his property in Italy with the money he and his son stole from Israel.

w2ilp (Ignorant Logical Philosophy?)

KG6JTB

06-21-2005, 01:26 PM

Quote[/b] ]I am a Jew by Hitler's definition...but I chose to be an American secular humanist by my own outlook on the world and my own education and my own studies of modern Isralei history.

I guess I am too from my father's side, but my mom is German and family reunions aren't much fun.

When you put "quotes" in your original thread it showed contempt for Jews. You clarified your position nicely, and I agree Israeli politics suck.

I'm a secular humanist by definition too, but also a Republican. Just like I'm 1/2 Jewish with former NAZI family members in Germany- well, they have all died. Life is beautiful.

Dave
KG6JTB

k6bbc

06-21-2005, 03:48 PM

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ June 20 2005,22:18)]Like many Americans of Jewish ancestory I foolishly contributed to Israel up until 1967. #At that time I became disgusted because the Israelis would not give back the Palestinians territory that they had captured. #
With all due respect – this is the second time you have made this statement. I guess if one tells a falsehood enough times, it becomes true. Please show me on a map of the region in 1967 where the country of “Palestine” is.

Thank you,

Oh, BTW – I too am a secular humanist. This is an issue of historical accuracy and fairness, not religion.

K6BBC

W2ILP

06-21-2005, 10:10 PM

kg6jtb

OK on your post and I understand that you feel that I am being derogatory by putting
"chosen people" and "promised land" into quotes. This is because many Jews think that they are "chosen people" and many Isralis believe that the land of Israel is theirs because God gave that land to them....not just promised it to them. As a secular Humanist I can not believe that any group of people is chosen to be better than any other group of people by any God...Nor can I believe that God gave any land to anybody. What kind of hypocriytical Atheist do you think I am? Atheists can't ask God for anything...BUT they can't blame God for anything either and that is more important if you want to be a Humanist. I don't need God to make me any different than I am..or to give any Arab's land to me.

k6bbc

I will show you where the British Protectorate of Palistine was, if you will show me where Israel was before 1946 and after mythological Biblical days.

Thank you.

Glad to hear that you are a secular humanist and can dismiss religion as a reason for Israel to exist...What other reason can you think of that is not based on preconditioned pity for Holocaust survivors?

Watch the talks between Sharon and the Palistinian PM that are going on now. You might find out that my posts are not so ignorant after all.

73,

Bob w2ilp (Ignorant Logical Philosophy?)

k6bbc

06-21-2005, 10:30 PM

"The U.N. serves a very important and useful purpose."

W2ILP

Like creating the state of Israel? You know what you are ILP? “A self-loathing Jew.”

Larry David – CURB YOU ENTHUSIASM

W2ILP

06-22-2005, 05:06 AM

k6bbc

I may be a self thinking Humanist...but I am not a self loathing anything.

The U.N. did not create Isreal. #The U.N. recognized Isreal after its initial land area was given to Zionists by the UK, due to the debatable conflicting promises of Load Balfour and was lobbied for by Zionists throughout the world, as well as illegally fought for by Jewish terrorists in the British Mandate of Palistine. When the land was given to the Zionists the Arabs refused to come to a bargaing table and to recognize the existance of the state of Israel. This turned out to be a big mistake for them.

There is no part of the U.N. charter that gives the U.N. the right to create a new nation. #Israel was not permitted to join the U.N. as a member until 1949. # Israel had declared its independence on May 15 1948.

If you want to talk about the U.N. I urge you to get a copy of "The Charter of The United Nations" so that you will no longer dream about what you thnk it is capable of doing or not doing.

Curb your bull.

Are you a self loathing Secular Humanist? #I won't call you that because I know you may have had theatrical training that enables you to play many roles, and I am confused as to what role you are playing on QRZ.

I don't hate anybody ...not even myself. # Stay cool.
If you want to debate me on any history or geography, I suggest that you look up the facts before you accuse me of ignorance. #I am not always perfectly accurate but now I will not say anything to you that I can not back up with fact rather than my humble opinions.

I am a human [period] and I suggest you refer to me as a human or a humble human ham and nothing more. That should be within the secular humanist doctrine that you must have handy if you are really a secular humanist.

Resp[ectful 73,
Bob w2ilp #(Intolerance Loses Position)

W5MJL

06-22-2005, 05:14 AM

The UN did create Israel. Apparently you did not read my chronology I posted on Israel creation. We were the first country that recognized them, but the Jewish state was CREATED BY THE UN.

W5MJL

06-22-2005, 05:17 AM

Here you go so you can see it in black and white.

May 13, 1947: The United Nations General Assembly appoints an eleven nation Special Committee on Palestine to study the Palestine problem and report by September 1947.

August 31, 1947: The United Nations Special Committee on Palestine issues its report, which recommends unanimously (all 11 member states voting in favor) that Great Britain terminate their mandate for Palestine and grant it independence at the earliest possible date; and which also recommends by majority vote (7 of the member nations voting in favor) that Palestine be partitioned into Jewish and Arab states.

November 1947: A subcommittee of the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine establishes a timetable for British withdrawal from Palestine.

November 29, 1947: The United Nations General Assembly approves the partition plan for Palestine put forward by the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine. The 1947 UN Partition divided the area into three entities: a Jewish state, an Arab state, and an international zone around Jerusalem.

k6bbc

06-22-2005, 06:11 AM

Quote[/b] (ka5fap @ June 21 2005,22:17)]Here you go so you can see it in black and white.

May 13, 1947: The United Nations General Assembly appoints an eleven nation Special Committee on Palestine to study the Palestine problem and report by September 1947.

August 31, 1947: The United Nations Special Committee on Palestine issues its report, which recommends unanimously (all 11 member states voting in favor) that Great Britain terminate their mandate for Palestine and grant it independence at the earliest possible date; and which also recommends by majority vote (7 of the member nations voting in favor) that Palestine be partitioned into Jewish and Arab states.

November 1947: A subcommittee of the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine establishes a timetable for British withdrawal from Palestine.

November 29, 1947: The United Nations General Assembly approves the partition plan for Palestine put forward by the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine. The 1947 UN Partition divided the area into three entities: a Jewish state, an Arab state, and an international zone around Jerusalem.
All correct.

But I might add it was neighboring Arab states (Syria and Jordan) who told the Arabs living in the partitioned territories to “temporarily” relocate while their armies wiped out the Jews. Then Syria and Jordan (with Israel’s secret approval) did a land grab on what was to be Palestine.

Was it Menachem Begin who said “the Palestinians never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity”?

K6BBC