What To Do When The Law Breaks The Law?

I am faced with a serious dilemma. I have discovered through extensive monitoring that our local deputies are actively using modified CB's, out-of-band, for a "chat around". I have verified this is a widespread condition in my local department with at least 6 cars equipped with these radios. They are not going up into the 10M band, rather they go "down" to 26.XX MHz.

A couple of them are actively promoting others getting the radios too. When one officer begged them to come back in the standard 40 channels because he didn't have the extra channels, he was told on the department simplex channel to "get with the program, we could fix you right up".

My dilemma comes from knowing if I turn it into the FCC, I could face retaliation as this is a local yokel's paradise & the "Good Old Boy Network" is very alive & well here! The law is the law, right? This proves the FCC is failing to make people even think they face consequences for illegal behavior, not even the law themselves!

What would you do when faced with the law breaking the law? Sit back & smile knowing you will always be "in the know" or just turn them into the FCC & live in fear of "payback"? They would certainly know who turned them in, by process of elimination, I am sure.

So what do you suggest?

RM
In the woods of Mayberry USA

[W9JI]

Just my opinion i would do 1 of 2 things contact FCC and not give your name or ignore it because if they find out who made the complaint the may "get back at you" thats just me

[K9STH]

A few years back, a small town in Texas happened to install new radios in the police cars, on a new frequency, and didn't happen to bother with getting their license modified. On day, the local FCC engineer-in-charge just happened to exit off the freeway to get lunch in that particular town and was immediately pulled over in a "speed trap". He identified himself and asked to see the license for the radio equipment. At first the officer refused, then finally got the police chief from lunch to get the licenses. When the licenses did not show the frequencies in use, the FCC engineer told the police chief that he was going to "contest" the speeding ticket, and, if he was found guilty, the police department would have to "answer" for the illegal operation of the radios. And, by the way, the person that they would initially have to "answer to" was him!

A week later the FCC engineer appeared before the municipal judge, was "awarded" a fine for speeding. The FCC engineer then handed the police chief a "show cause" notice. The end result was that the police department was fined $1.5 million ($10,000 per day per transmitter). The city's radio service's insurance "picked up" half of the fine and the city had to pay the rest. All because the town was running a "speed trap" and happened to get the "wrong" person!

You do not have to identify yourself to the FCC to make a complaint. If you happen to make some tape recordings that will help, but they are not absolutely necessary. Just send notices to the FCC in Washington and also to the local field office, but don't sign the letters. Also, you could even mail the letters from another location to avoid even having the postmark show your location.

Glen, K9STH

[KC2JCA]

I don't see the dilema.
"They might make my life miserable!"

Wouldn't that also make them guilty of several other violations of law?? Last I checked we weren't living a Mad Max Society where it is survival of the fittest.

There are two categories of citizens in the US, law abiding and criminal. I would never be ashamed of belonging to the first and pruning down the second.

73, Jim - kc2jca

[ke5wj]

I don't see the dilema, but I don't know the full story, either. The 26 MHz range is allocated to various Fixed, and Mobile services, along with Meteorological Aids, including Auxiliary Broadcasting and Personal Radio services. They may be infringing on those services, but I don't know.

If I were in your position, I would talk to the local communications officer and politely ask what service they are using. Since you don't ever give your name or call, I don't know if you already have a problem relating to local law officials - and I am not drawing any conclusions.

If you can't talk to them directly, the only other option is to contact the FCC anonymously, put it in their hands, and forget the whole thing. As hams we are not responsible for policing other frequencies and have no authority in the matter. My personal opinion is that time would be better spent helping clean-up our own frequencies.

Just an opinion. You know the local situation much better than I do!

Good luck and 73,

[KD5KUF]

RM, I would write a fairly detailed letter about what you know for a fact and then sign it. "Name withheld due to fear of retribution". This implies a valid reason and not just a crank who sent an anonymous letter.
BTW I don't see why everyone complains about not knowing your call sign. It wasn't hard to find at all with a little common sense. But as you seemed to hint someone with a little smarts might figure out that you turned them in. Living in small town america myself I say, think about it very carefully, then stand firm whichever way you decide.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Yo, RM...........

Seems ta me ya gottem' where they live! Record the "good ol' boys" and sell the tapes to their wive's private investagators! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Jus tryn' ta help! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

73 de Craig.............KCØGOA http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[KB9YFI]

The FCC knows about it now RM

Actually, I have a similar situation around here, except they are using police frequencies, but not FCC type accepted radios for that service.....

The local police, mostly highwy patrol and DMV, are buying 2 meter mobile rigs and doing band expansions. They do this because the highwy patrol is in the 40mhz area and all other law enforcement in the area is in the 150mhz area. They use it to communicate with dispatch and cars from other agencies.

So far I have not seen any use outside the approved frequencies, but the possibility is there. It also brings up other questions since the individuals doing it are not working for the agency that is licensed for the frequency, and it increases the number of transmitters being used on a specific frequency, as well as the type acceptence issue.

Right now they aren't hurting anything, but I wonder how long till they start using simplex freqs between 144-148.. till then I am not gonna worry about it.

73's
KF4PEP

[W5ATX]

RM:

You're right, they are breaking the law, and I hate cops who act like they're above the law. That story from Texas that Glen told is a good one and I like it. Serves them right.

I would wonder though why you're so gung-ho to tell on them. Yes, they're lawbreakers, but it sounds like maybe you have an axe to grind. If you're sure it's worth the trouble to you, go for it. You seem convinced there WILL be repercussions, so . . . tread as you see fit. But if it was me, I'd think twice, knowing they're not in the ham band, and most likely not bothering anyone at all (every legal user of frequencies from 26-28MHz gave up long ago.) But, I still won't tell you not to report them, because the fact is, you're right and they're not.

Speaking of funny rigs/freqs/actions, I just saw an item on eBay today. It's a "Kenwood Mobile Radio FD/EMS *special feature* Item # 1344897463" described as a TM-261a with "special features." You REALLY need to go look at it. Tell me what you think. I know what I think. In fact I don't think, I KNOW what it is. But you want a chuckle? Go look, it's worth the time.

Good luck RM

73

Chris

[KG4RYT]

IT WILL BE HARD TO GET ANY ACTION ON THIS SINCE THE FCC HAS TURN OVER THE REGULATION ENFORCEMENT OF THE NON HAM #CB BANDS TO THE LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W5ATX @ April 08 2002,10:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">RM:

You're right, they are breaking the law, and I hate cops who act like they're above the law. #That story from Texas that Glen told is a good one and I like it. #Serves them right....

...I would wonder though why you're so gung-ho to tell on them. #Yes, they're lawbreakers, but it sounds like maybe you have an axe to grind. #If you're sure it's worth the trouble to you, go for it. #You seem convinced there WILL be repercussions, so . . . tread as you see fit. #But if it was me, I'd think twice, knowing they're not in the ham band, and most likely not bothering anyone at all (every legal user of frequencies from 26-28MHz gave up long ago.) #But, I still won't tell you not to report them, because the fact is, you're right and they're not...

Good luck RM

73

Chris[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I can assure you that I have no ax to grind with them. I know the individuals involved &amp; know where all involved reside. They started to &quot;experiment with the extra channels&quot; during this past hunting season.

It is the principle that motivated me only! No dull ax, no BS! The law is the law to me, but not to the point of harassment.

I see this akin to the vice squad being on the &quot;take&quot; &amp; taking liberty with &quot;looking the other way&quot;. If they don't know the law, how can they even try to enforce it? That is my point. I am sure they do not know that CB enforcement is a local issue now, but don't fear the FCC looking #in a police car for &quot;non-conforming&quot; radio equipment. That is my point as well. Who do you complain to when locals are &quot;unqualified&quot; due to their own behavior? Should you just let it go?

I posed the question mainly to illustrate that the perceived enforcement threat is NIL, even with the law enforcement community. They ought to know better but they obviously don't. I have made my mind up but let the discussion continue.

I find the whole situation most interesting to say the least. Without revealing specific details, I have heard coordinating (common occurance) of what some would refer to &quot;profiling&quot; via these out of band channels. That just adds to the mix of questionable conduct on the part of those sworn to uphold the law, IN ALL ITS' FORMS.

I find the &quot;special feature&quot; radio is just another example, if used in conjunction of ANY official conduct or duties. If it were their personal time, I could care less about what frequency they are on! I am talking about on duty, in an official capacity, permanently installed in county owned vehicles. I feel it is a violation of the public trust!

RM
You can run but you can't hide from my receiver...

[K9STH]

For NCUNIT33:

Where do you come up with the &quot;idea&quot; that the FCC only has jurisdiction for amateur and CB radio? The FCC indeed does have jurisdiction over all radio communications within the United States and territories. On matters that involve the Federal Government communications, they work with other federal agencies. But, they definitely do have authority to levy fines, institute proceedings for arrest, forfiture of equipment, etc.

The FCC has initiated fines, equipment seizure, and even imprisonment of people who are willfully violating the regulations concerning radio operation, and those persons mentioned in the original post are apparently violating federal regulations.

Glen, K9STH

[K8EEI]

I think the best thing to do would be to send them an email titled &quot;here is my call sign &quot;.

# Make sure to attach a jpeg of a crazy looking person holding a knife.

# 73 de Tony K8EEI

[KB9YFI]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W5ATX @ April 08 2002,10:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">RM:

Speaking of funny rigs/freqs/actions, I just saw an item on eBay today. #It's a &quot;Kenwood Mobile Radio FD/EMS *special feature* #Item # 1344897463&quot; described as a TM-261a with &quot;special features.&quot; #You REALLY need to go look at it. #Tell me what you think. #Chris[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
You better go look at it quick because I can't believe that eBay still has this auction up. Anyone want to lay odds on if it lasts the full 6 days?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif??

I hope this guy gets away with it though. Just to thumb his nose at eBay and the obvious violations of the terms of service above and beyond the radio ramifications. I don't understand why he would list for 6 days though. He will never away with this auction this long the way he has it listed.

Jim - KB9YFI

[W5ATX]

By the way, that radio sold at the &quot;buy it now&quot; price of $329.99 AND $25 for the Kenwood programming software via email. Talk about blatant. Oh well, capitalism at its worst!

[n8emr]

A letter to the police cheif with copies to mayor,city council and local media
might help solve the problem.

[KAMR]

I would sned an anonymous letter the the city attorny along wiht the FCC law pertaining to the said activity.

Bob KAØMR

Maybe if you and some of your buddies get seen around town with some foxhunting equipment and taking notes they will get curiuos and ask what you are doing.... then say that you have noted some illegal transmissions and are gathering evidince for the FCC.

they may shut up real quick!

[KG4RYT]

TO: K9STH
GLEN WHAT #ENFORCEMENT HAS THE FCC DONE LATELY?
THE ONLY THING I SEE THE FCC DOING IS CRACKING DOWN ON HAM RADIO VIOLATIONS WITH CB AND OTHER BANDS RUNNING WILD.
JUST LISTEN TO THE MARINE BAND AND GMSR BAND FOR EXAMPLE MUCH LESS THE CB BAND. I FEEL BECAUSE THEY HAVE WASHED THERE HANDS ON THE CB BAND SO TO SPEAK, THEY WILL PROBABLY DO LITTLE OR NOTHING. ALSO THE FCC HAS TURNED OVER ENFORCEMENT OF VIOLATIONS OF CB RADIO TO LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT, OUR I BELIEVE #THATS WHAT I'VE #HEARD.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[K9STH]

They have been enforcing fines, etc., on services other than amateur and CB radio (including unlicensed operations). You just don't hear about that in the &quot;general press&quot;. Jim Haynie, the President of the ARRL made reference to the high fines given very recently in the Dallas / Fort Worth area for &quot;freebanding&quot; operation. I don't remember which of the two threads that Jim was one where he mentioned this, but if you read either the thread about the ARRL in Washington or the one on a &quot;new&quot; organization, you will find the information thereon.

Glen, K9STH

[wr6s]

RM,,hey bud,i would leave it alone. NOT WORTH it. especially if they decide you hasseled them and they want a little payback. i normally dont fight a war i dont think i can win,or could hurt me or my family. the guys are probably not all that radio savy,and if they are using some of the language that was used during the king riots or others,such as :&quot;gorrilas in the mist&quot;[[[geeezzz es heck...] then they wil get whats coming. one tact might be to write an anonomous letter to the chief,stating that an auxiliary freq for the guys to do some extra coordination might be nice to have authorized for the guys,especially if they want to buy their own equipment. addtioanlly,can you imagine the look on their faces when an explanatin of daytime hf propagation is given,and that some of their &quot;possible&quot; stereotyping, &quot;profiling&quot;,and i imagine some of the vernacular used by them is possibly being picked up 10,000 miles away. gorrillas in the mist on a MDT is one thing, PROFILING OR RACIAL SLURS [POSSIBLY] BEING HEARD HALF WAY AROUND THE GLOBE AINT GONNA BE TOO FUNNY,,especailly to the chief. a letter to him with a tape and a propagation explanaton will probably do the trick. then watch the chiefs jaw hit the ground,and some rear ends being chewed completely off to the point of 2 dimentionality hahahha. i have always said that you can probably train amonkey to be a cop. the only difference between a monkey cop and a human cop,is that humans get paid in money,monkeys will work for food. a cage in prison or a cage at work are about the same thing to a monkey. i would also leave it alone because if some of the aclu types,who as i have always said,need ot be a victim once in a while and they would change their tune[humm,aclu,,arrl,fcc,same boat huihi] ever got a hol dof some of the conversations,that whole department would owe the gross national product of say,england hihi hha. i hate to use ignorance as an excuse,but the poor slobs probably dont realize what they are doing. and as far as the fcc guy that got pulled over and tried to ge tout of it by THREATENING them,he is in the same boat and should lose his job for trying to extort a get out of jail free card &quot;or else&quot;. good for the judge. if i get a speeding ticket,be it in a speed trap or not,i take my lumps,. i know how to read my speedometer.[and unfortunately i am in a pretty good speed trap area. there are so many regular speeders that pass people,drive like idiots and just general jerks,thta i really dont see the need for speed traps,except for lazy cops,or cops that are forced to make quotas,which do happen,weather they admit oit or not. i hope i dont fire upa bunch of cops over this post but come on,its true. RONNY,where are you http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif hahaha http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ,patdm14[watch ,now il have a chp waiting at the end of my street hahahahaahahha,p [RM,GIVE ME THE FREQ IF YOU LIKE,I OWULD GET A KICK OUT OF HEARING THEM HAHAHAHAH,WAIT,FORGET THAT,DONT WANT THE DAM ACLU LISTENING HE HE HE ]

[k3sam]

RM, It is ashame that you will not identify yourself to others and be a bit nicer to some of us as I came across some paperwork that deals exactly with what you are taking about. #How I got it is between me and the person that handed it to me, however he is in law enforcement. Give me a reason to send you a copy and I'll think about it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (k3sam @ April 10 2002)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">RM,
It is ashame that you will not identify yourself to others... Give me a reason to send you a copy and I'll think about it.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Just think about this SAM:

WHY would I ever want ANYTHING from the likes of you?

It is a shame you are incapable of bringing anything useful to the table...

If I wantedhttp://mitglied.lycos.de/Nightmenn/Gif/bull####.gif I'd sure know where to go...
Just find SAM jamming 40 meters with your imaginary nets...

Go send some more bad checks, but not to me!

Hit the road!

RM - for ID

[K9STH]

Sam, RM, BACK OFF!

Everyone has been behaving very well lately, so let's not start again.

Glen, K9STH

[NN6EE]

Hey Guys,

Going back to page 1 a few gentlemen spelled &quot;DILEMA&quot; don't they mean to spell it as &quot;DILEMMA&quot;http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

I've had NIT-PICKERS HARP ON me out here, so I thought I'd reply in kind!!! WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND BOYS!!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif es 73,

nn6ee/JIM

[n5pzj]

Ur dilemma is not unusual but it can be handled quite discretely if some tact and diplomacy is used to illustrate the point. First, no matter how well you try to cover the fact they (the police) have
been reported, the speculation will get out! So grab the bull by the horns and be a Man.

I have had a similiar condition down here in Louisiana and heres how it was handled:

1. Gather the evidence on tape.

2. Quietly approach the local DAs and Sheriff's office with a joint meeting about this
matter. The Lawyers in the DAs office will see the light almost immediately and
the Sheriff's Office will DEFINATELY follow the DA's recommendation about
the impropriety of the radios. If there exists an Internal Affairs Division
(Louisiana State Police provide that here in LA for those offices which lack an IA Office)
they might be called.
3. Let the police Dept handle their own people, they will usually see the light on
this one and get the radios out of the car.
4. Meanwhile, don't make a big stink over freeband stuff in the public,
the name of the DA if anything is mentioned to you about this matter
will cool the LEO down since he don't want to be in the DAs office
trying to explain the matter.
5. Since it isn't in the Public, the officers will be very quiet about this since
they don't need any remarks on their records.
6. If asked about Amateur Radio feel free to play it up.

I really don't think you have anything to fear if you discuss it upfront
with the Local Jurisdiction's Lawyers since almost all jurisdictions want to
avoid anything which may spell trouble. Loose Cannons are rare these days
and most don't know anything about radio, so your expertise could help
them avoid further problems. (Govt Attornies simply love to stay out of the
limelight with negative publicity.)

[KD7KOY]

RM..personally I'd leave it alone. If the FCC won't enforce CB and gave it to the Police. And the police are breaking the law by freebanding. You might find yourself alone. Like one post said, propagation is telling the world what they are talking about. Sooner or later they will hang themselves. Chalk it up to a fact of life today.

[tkinney]

Yes, by all means turn them in....it should also help you when you need cooperation with the police to run ARES/RACES. I mean there is nothing like a good busybody radio cop to make the police's job easier. I'm sure the people that may not get good ARES/RACES services in a local time of need will be glad you stuck your nose in.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (tkinney @ April 13 2002,02:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, by all means turn them in....it should also help you when you need cooperation with the police to run ARES/RACES. I mean there is nothing like a good busybody radio cop to make the police's job easier. I'm sure the people that may not get good ARES/RACES services in a local time of need will be glad you stuck your nose in.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Really?

I have been called many things on here but a busybody radio cop is not one I have heard yet.

So in other words, you should gauge right &amp; wrong based on effect on ARES/RACES &amp; NOT the law?

Somehow &quot;Do as I say but not as I do...&quot; sets a double standard to which I will not live by... Only the shallowest of men would live by such a rule. This kind of &quot;moral relativism&quot; puts our society in great peril.

A rather specious argument at best &amp; just plain wrong!

RM

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif tkinney..............ARES etc doesn't depend on cooperation from the police, but rather the other way arround. If the police could handle the whole communication thing in an emergency, then hams would have no place in the picture. They ask us to volunteer to help, we don't go begging them for the privelege of storm spotting, communications coordenation etc. So stand up and bust the freebanding louts, RM. It doesn't matter what they do for a living. Besides, if the city/county had to poney up the 10 large per day fine, they won't be in any official position to seek revenge!

Give em heck,RM! ( Damn, I hate being put in a position of agreement with you! )

73 de Craig.........KCØGOA http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif