RARES [Archive] - QRZ Forums

N5PVL

06-01-2005, 12:08 PM

With the ARESCOM/WinLink scam, corrupt officials at the ARRL have officially handed over ARES to a group of non-ham types who want to put all of our amateur radio emergency communications over the Internet.

Real amateur radio operators who ( duh! ) want to utilize amateur radio for emergency communications are left out in the cold by this ARRL ARESCOM scam, which has effectively undermined and de-legitimized ARES as an amateur radio emergency service.

So - How about a new RARES ( Real Amateur Radio Emergency Service ) for those unreasonable, hardcore, luddite amateurs who still like to use ham radio, and provide ecomms when the non-ham stuff is down?

I'll be glad to provide web services for such a group... How about it, folks?

If the ARRL wants to back away from amateur radio and become an ISP, well life goes on whether the ARRL and ARES retain their legitimacy or not. - The hurricane season will not be going on hold just because ARES is no longer on the job.

If a disaster occurs in your locale, can you really count on an outfit that is utterly dependent upon to Internet to provide ecomms - or would you rather have legitimate hams there, utilizing amateur radio?

Who wants to help organize the new RARES group?

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

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W5HTW

06-01-2005, 07:29 PM

I've just been appointed DEC of our county. So far there has been no mention of shifting to internet operations. We are discussing MT63 as a means of support for written messages, but almost all of our work will be FM on VHF and UHF, plus HF operations for statewide situations.

I would not accept the job, nor if already in it, as I am, I would not remain in it, if the goal was to move the ARES operations here to the internet. So far, that is not an obvious goal.

I agree with you, though. We may need a new oranization to support amateur radio emergency communications. Your RARES idea may be one that is workable.

Besides the internet thing, the big thing I shy away from is the "wannabe cop" concept. Too many people get ham licenses believing they are going to be authorities, and really have no interest in ham radio. They just want to be important, without going through the police academy. The new trend to offer metallic badges remindful of police and fire badges, is one I do not accept. I would be all for the kind of badge that is a laminated picture ID, worn on a chain around the neck, or with a squeeze clip to the shirt collar. But badges that tend to make outsiders thing we are cops are, in my opinion, a very firm no-no.

I hope you find some interest. You can't do it alone, and if I join you, the two of us can't do it alone. But the idea is a good one, at least on the surface. It could very quickly degenerate into another batch of "wish-I-were-a-cop" types, so one has to be careful to set up guidelines and stick to them.

Enjoy.

Ed

KC0REY

06-01-2005, 09:21 PM

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ June 01 2005,06:08)]With the ARESCOM/WinLink scam, corrupt officials at the ARRL have officially handed over ARES to a group of non-ham types who want to put all of our amateur radio emergency communications over the Internet.

Real amateur radio operators who ( duh! ) want to utilize amateur radio for emergency communications are left out in the cold by this ARRL ARESCOM scam, which has effectively undermined and de-legitimized ARES as an amateur radio emergency service.

So - How about a new RARES ( Real Amateur Radio Emergency Service ) for those unreasonable, hardcore, luddite amateurs who still like to use ham radio, and provide ecomms when the non-ham stuff is down?

I'll be glad to provide web services for such a group... How about it, folks?

If the ARRL wants to back away from amateur radio and become an ISP, well life goes on whether the ARRL and ARES retain their legitimacy or not. - The hurricane season will not be going on hold just because ARES is no longer on the job.

If a disaster occurs in your locale, can you really count on an outfit that is utterly dependent upon to Internet to provide ecomms - or would you rather have legitimate hams there, utilizing amateur radio?

Who wants to help organize the new RARES group?

Charles Brabham, N5PVL

Director: USPacket (http://www.uspacket.org)
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The sky is falling!

I think we can all agree that if ARES and the others want to put their services on the internet, the internet can/will fail and they will fail. The internet relies on one central source (backbone) and if it is taken out then so is the internet
Let them do it, who cares if they are not successful.

We all know that when the crap hits the fan and the internet is down for what ever reason, we will be operating our RADIOS anyway. That is what Amateur radio is all about after all. Emergency communications.

Whatever plans ARES and the ARRL make are insignificant. I am a member of each group and still wonder who made them the all powerful? They are not. The backbone of Amateur Radio is Amateur Radio Operators. The internet will not replace Amateur Radio, regardless what the doom sayers believe.

Think about it.

WA2ZDY

06-02-2005, 12:06 AM

ARES still seems to be on about an even keel where they actually do get used for the real deal often enough. Here along the coast in NJ, we get coastal storms often enough to keep ARES/RACES busy. So those groups stay the course and keep in practice.

I'd suspect the same thing happens in Florida and in tornado alley.

Other places where those organisations do naught but drill year after year probably have to come up with new ideas just to keep the membership. I don't know for sure, but that's why they lose their way.

Where it really counts, I doubt things will go totally awry. I hope anyway.

n8yx

06-02-2005, 03:59 AM

The single biggest Achilles heel in the whole Internet picture is the DNS server setup. Take the machines themselves out - or sever the routes to/from them - and 'Net traffic is going nowhere fast.

Many "information-age Pearl Harbor" scenarios point straight to such an attack as the opening salvo. It's one any street mugger is familiar with: Go for the head and the body will follow shortly thereafter.

And here lies the biggest fault with WinLink, EchoLink and Net-based IP forwarding of radio-originated traffic: If the 'Net goes, it ALL goes.

We as amateur radio operators should be building, testing and utilizing our own EmComm network which operates in parallel with - and independently of - all other communications infrastructures. It should in no way, shape or form rely on anything but RADIO as its physical link layer...

N5PVL

06-02-2005, 05:11 AM

Today I took a look at the South Texas ARES web-site - and saw no mention of anything except ARESCOM and WL2K. - Nothing else exists, as far as these people are concerned. All those dedicated traffic handlers and NTS folks can just take a hike, I suppose.

When you think about how many hams are having thier hard work, hard-won infrastructure and years of training tossed aside by the ARRL so the folks at Newington can run the ARESCOM/WinLink scam - why then I'd say that RARES has a very good chance of taking off and flying.

There are a great number of hams who are in the process of being edged out by ARESCOM and left in the cold... These are dedicated individuals who just want to serve thier community, not play ISP for the ARRL. They have no place to go, and nobody to speak for them.

I am offering web services... That means that I can provide a private/public forum, web site or a mailing list for individuals interested in getting RARES started off on the right foot.

Contact: cbrabham@hampoll.com to make those arraingements.

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

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KD7WHQ

06-02-2005, 05:24 AM

It may fly, but there is no reason TRUE hams can't keep the real deal going.

Just because the ARRL says it is so, doesn't codify it in anyway.

VOIP is cool, if the internet is accessable; it won't be in an affected area, and possibly beyond.

Just keep going as always, and let them that want take the weaker link..

N4EBC

06-02-2005, 09:32 AM

How about some links to this ARESCOM Winlink scam info.

I have not heard of this comming from the ARRL.

You would think that that the folks at the ARRL that run ARES would know that you don't build a back up communications system that can and will fail durning disaster.

The internet is a fine tool and has it's place in Ham radio. But not as a back bone for EMCOMM. EMCOMM needs real radio.

N5PVL

06-02-2005, 11:59 AM

ARESCOM:

I was reading this at the ARRL WebSite (http://www.arrl.org/announce/reports-2004/july/arescom.html) this morning. This link doesn't tell it all, but it will give you part of the ARRL's side of the story and get you off to a good start, if you are unfamiliar with ARESCOM.

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

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N4EBC

06-02-2005, 02:15 PM

Ok from the first paragraph

The ARESCOM committee mission is to develop a comprehensive program to enhance the current ARES emergency communications capability to include rapid and accurate handling of long range (inter-state, national, and international) emergency related message traffic. This committee was appointed by President Haynie as a result of Minute 25 of the July 2003 BOD Meeting.

I read ENHANCE not replace. Big difference. There speaking about enhancing the current ARES system to include rapid transfer of messages using the internet. Great if it is up and working then why would this be a problem? If it is not and traffic is not getting through to an area then other means would still be in place. HF Simplex by any means possible. With Ham radio the message always gets through by what ever means.

It seems in my humble opinion that the ARRL is simply using all available resources at its disposable to make ARES more effective. I am not an ARES fan boy but I was an assistant ARES EC and an assistant RACES officer. Our local EOC (Broward) uses a RACES room that is staffed by both ARES and RACES and this is where I spent the 2004 hurricane season at the radio as a net control op, I had at my disposable HF VHF IRLP ECHOLINK APRS Packet CW you name the mode we used it.

The National Hurricane Center used Echolink extensively in 2004. But also used HF IRLP and CW in fact the whole spectrum of modes and frequencies were used.

Look I know IRLP and VoIP is a sticky subject with a lot of hams. But don’t read into what is not there. In the end amateur radio will always rely on the one thing that makes us hams. The radio. The internet and VoIP is just another mode. Don’t let your distain for it cloud its potential in EMCOMM. It has its place, as does every other mode we hams have at our disposal.

N5PVL

06-02-2005, 04:24 PM

Looks like N4EBC is happy with the ARESCOM scam, and does not care any more than the ARRL does about what it has done and is doing to the hobby - or to his fellow hams. To him, the Internet is an exciting new ham radio mode. Differentiating between the ham radio and the non-ham communications carriers appears to be beyond him, as is the case with many of his fellow Amateur Telephone enthuisiasts.

He didn't like the way the discussion was going, so he thought he'd troll with us a little WL2K propaganda.

ARESCOM scam apologists aside, this discussion of RARES is intended to support the many hams who are not happy with the ARESCOM scam, and who actually do care about what it is doing to the hobby - and themselves as amateur radio operators.

RARES - Real Amateur Radio Emergency Service

RARES is for amateurs who do not think the Internet is a new ham radio mode, and who have no trouble differentiating between ham radio and other, non-ham means of communication.

RARES is for amateurs who understand the importance of providing alternative communications as is clearly indicated in PART97, our charter.

I think we can safely assume that N4EBC would not be interested in seeing an independent ecomms group that will take up where ARES has decided to leave off - providing amateur radio ecomms. He thinks we'll all be a lot better off to play ISP and put it all over the Internet - when it's not crashing people's QSOs with wide-mode digital signals all over the phone bands.

And that's OK! - If everybody had to agree before anything got done, not much if anything ever would get done.

Speaking of getting things done; What would be the best way to get RARES off the ground?

What specific provisions would RARES have to work under, in order to specify and preserve the use of amateur radio for RARES ecomms?

Since I am the guy organizing this, my name is off of the ballot for potential RARES officers, though I hope to end up being the web-weenie and perhaps a digital consultant for the organization. - When it gets off the ground. That will be up to the RARES group though, when they get organized and start putting things together.

My feeling is that a group needs to be formed right now, a group of amateurs who would like to be there for hams who want to provide amateur radio ecomms, and look out for thier interests.

Since the ARESCOM/WL2K scam is currently alienating and marginalizing hundreds of our best ham radio ecomms workers, the time is obviously right for RARES...

Who will step forward to help form and possibly guide this organization?

Contact: cbrabham@hampoll.com

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

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W3MIV

06-02-2005, 04:40 PM

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ June 02 2005,12:24)]He didn't like the way the discussion was going, so he thought he'd troll with us a little WL2K propaganda.
Charles:

I have noticed through a whole host of different threads on a range of different topics that anyone who does not agree with you is quickly branded a "troll" or a perp in the ___ scam (here you fill in the blank with ARRL, WinLink, whatever).

You may now post your usual "troll" rejoinder about me, for I read the same material in the same way as EBC.

N5PVL

06-02-2005, 04:54 PM

Yes Albert, you always have been and always will be a troll, as far as I'm concerned. Most of your posts are of that nature, at least here on QRZ.

N4EBC's post could have been written by you, as he parrotted the same line of propaganda as you usually do. - It's no wonder that you march in lock-step with him on this issue... You both read from the same script.

I would guess that N4EBC's post had you off balance for a while there... You barely escaped having to say something original !

Now back to the topic under discussion, with your permission OM.

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

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N4EBC

06-02-2005, 05:47 PM

Hey N5PVL Sticks and stones OM

Blow it out your nose!!

Not every one has to agree with you. I read it one way you understand it another.

Opinions are like azz holes every one has one and some of us are one!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

N5PVL

06-02-2005, 07:32 PM

... Which points out one good reason why a new ecomms group will need web-services. If you own your own reflector or forum, you can conduct a rational discussion and stay on topic simply by having a private discussion that requires special access, or by blacklisting the IP addresses of known trolls, in a public discussion.

Witness the constant disruption of this topic ( Starting a new RARES ecomms group ) by people who have no interest in the subject matter other than to attempt to disrupt and deny discussion of it by others.

This is why I am offering this group the necessary web services, to help them get started.

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

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KC0NBW

06-02-2005, 10:43 PM

Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ June 01 2005,12:29)]Besides the internet thing, the big thing I shy away from is the "wannabe cop" concept. #Too many people get ham licenses believing they are going to be authorities, and really have no interest in ham radio. #They just want to be important, without going through the police academy. #The new trend to offer metallic badges remindful of police and fire badges, is one I do not accept. #I would be all for the kind of badge that is a laminated picture ID, worn on a chain around the neck, or with a squeeze clip to the shirt collar. #But badges that tend to make outsiders thing we are cops are, in my opinion, a very firm no-no. #
that's a carryover from the cb react types with their uniforms,lights on their cars and piddly little pa speakers under the hood.

people that have entirely too much time on their hands !

k6ncx

06-02-2005, 11:55 PM

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ June 02 2005,09:24)]I think we can safely assume that N4EBC [snip] thinks we'll all be a lot better off to play ISP and put it all over the Internet.

...though I hope to end up being the web-weenie
I won't claim to know what N4EBC thinks, but I think you are tilting at windmills. Your talk of putting it all over the internet is just about 180 degrees from what anybody is proposing.

And why would a 'real' (in your terms) ham radio organization need or want a web-weenie?

kc7flr

06-03-2005, 03:35 AM

I don't see the threat to radio here. The "ARESCOM/Winlink2k scam" isn't any such thing. It is an *enhancement* not a replacement. There is no proposal to put ARES over the internet. I have talked to ARES/RACES people around here and they say things are business as usual -- the "AR" in ARES stands for Amatuer Radio and there is no plan to replace it with the internet.

Ok, now you can call me a troll, too.

73

Ed

N5PVL

06-03-2005, 05:32 AM

kc7flr says:
Quote[/b] ]
Ok, now you can call me a troll, too.

There's a difference between deliberately trying to disrupt a discussion ( trolling ) and simply not being very well informed, which is what appears to be happening with you.

I hope I am right about that.

The scam part of the ARESCOM/WL2K scam is well known and well documented. The ARRL has dropped thier previous dedication to serving the interests of all amateurs and instead has started centering all of its actions and policies around one rather dubious digital group - to the detriment of all other hams. ( 95% of us, or more. )

Yes, the ARESCOM "plan" most definately calls to put the bulk of ARES communications over the Internet, and Yes the ARESCOM plan does indeed put wide-made digital stations all over the phone bands, exactly as described.

And Yes the ARESCOM stuff is being pushed very hard while other ecomms services that are much more useful are being pushed aside in favor of ARESCOM. The South Texas ARES pages for example do not admit the existence of anything other than ARESCOM/WL2K... All other ARES activities have been downplayed and downgraded. Most are simply not mentioned anymore.

Instead it goes on about how the ARRL has "embraced" WL2K. - I guess that is there to explain how they wound up in bed with each other.

So if the ARESCOM goons have not screwed up ARES in your area yet - I suggest that you just stand by. It's coming, as the ARRL is very determined to push this scam.

When it does, you might find yourself wondering who it is who represents you - since the ARRL has stopped working in that direction. You also might wonder how you are going to provide ecomms via amateur radio when the ARRL no longer supports ham radio for that purpose.

That's when you will be wishing for RARES, and if all goes well, RARES will be ready, willing and able to support and represent you as an amateur radio ecomms worker while the ARRL goes on to play at being an ISP, providing email service to cheapskate boat oweners by QRMing the phone bands with PACTOR III robots out the wazoo.

If you really want me to call you a troll I will, but it seems to me that you are really just very poorly informed on this issue. Once you know what's going on, I'm sure you will start to see why hundreds of alienated and disaffected ham radio ecomms workers are going to need a place to go, now that the ARRL - in its wisdom - has decided to urinate upon them in order to serve the SCS corporation's and WL2K's special interests.

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

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kc7flr

06-03-2005, 08:16 AM

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ June 02 2005,22:32)]kc7flr says:
Quote[/b] ]
Ok, now you can call me a troll, too.

There's a difference between deliberately trying to disrupt a discussion ( trolling ) and simply not being very well informed, which is what appears to be happening with you.

I hope I am right about that.

The scam part of the ARESCOM/WL2K scam is well known and well documented. The ARRL has dropped thier previous dedication to serving the interests of all amateurs and instead has started centering all of its actions and policies around one rather dubious digital group - to the detriment of all other hams. ( 95% of us, or more. )

Yes, the ARESCOM "plan" most definately calls to put the bulk of ARES communications over the Internet, and Yes the ARESCOM plan does indeed put wide-made digital stations all over the phone bands, exactly as described.

And Yes the ARESCOM stuff is being pushed very hard while other ecomms services that are much more useful are being pushed aside in favor of ARESCOM. The South Texas ARES pages for example do not admit the existence of anything other than ARESCOM/WL2K... All other ARES activities have been downplayed and downgraded. Most are simply not mentioned anymore.

Instead it goes on about how the ARRL has "embraced" WL2K. - I guess that is there to explain how they wound up in bed with each other.

So if the ARESCOM goons have not screwed up ARES in your area yet - I suggest that you just stand by. It's coming, as the ARRL is very determined to push this scam.

When it does, you might find yourself wondering who it is who represents you - since the ARRL has stopped working in that direction. You also might wonder how you are going to provide ecomms via amateur radio when the ARRL no longer supports ham radio for that purpose.

That's when you will be wishing for RARES, and if all goes well, RARES will be ready, willing and able to support and represent you as an amateur radio ecomms worker while the ARRL goes on to play at being an ISP, providing email service to cheapskate boat oweners by QRMing the phone bands with PACTOR III robots out the wazoo.

If you really want me to call you a troll I will, but it seems to me that you are really just very poorly informed on this issue. Once you know what's going on, I'm sure you will start to see why hundreds of alienated and disaffected ham radio ecomms workers are going to need a place to go, now that the ARRL - in its wisdom - has decided to urinate upon them in order to serve the SCS corporation's and WL2K's special interests.

Charles Brabham, N5PVL

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You are in error. I read up on the subject before posting. I also discussed it with others involved in ARES/RACES.

You appear to have the misconception that anyone not agreeing with you is either ill-informed or a troll. How convenient it must be to have that mindset.

This "scam" must be only in Texas since there is no such "scam" or plan to replace amatuer radio with digital over internet.

73

Ed

WA2ZDY

06-03-2005, 11:10 AM

I'm going back to 40 CW

N5PVL

06-03-2005, 12:26 PM

kc7flr says:
Quote[/b] ]
You are in error. I read up on the subject before posting. I also discussed it with others involved in ARES/RACES.

You might try reading some of the threads related to this subject, right here on QRZ... But you seem to be determined to be called a Troll... Perhaps because that best describes your intent, in this discussion?

Do your homework OM - assuming that you are not a troll.

You might want to go a little further than reading the WL2K propaganda and talking to a WL2K enthusiast. The threads covering this topic here on QRZ would be a good start.

I guess you must have been hiding in a closet there last few months, eh? - That might explain how you could be so opinionated and so clueless at the same time. - Or you might just be a WL2K troll, who would not be much interested in the truth in the first place - as that would not advance the cause.

Lots of trolls pretend ignorance in order to enter a discussion, as they find that the role fits them well.

Amazing how the WL2K trolls come out of the woodwork to complain when I offer to help the people and services thier scam has undermined and marginalized.

Help out my fellow ham?? #How COULD I get involved in something like that! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Every time a WL2K troll shows up here, they make my point for me. Amateurs are not nearly so stupid as the WL2K group likes to suppose.

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

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KC5SAS

06-03-2005, 01:25 PM

Quote[/b] ]Who wants to help organize the new RARES group?
No thanks. I'll stick with REACT which uses ANY available means to get the message through whether it's Amateur, GMRS, Cellphone, Fax, Smoke Signals or a Note in a Bottle.

N5PVL

06-03-2005, 01:44 PM

KC5SAS says:
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ] #
Who wants to help organize the new RARES group?

No thanks. #I'll stick with REACT which uses ANY available means to get the message through whether it's Amateur, GMRS, Cellphone, Fax, Smoke Signals or a Note in a Bottle.

Another good alternative to the corrupted ARES organization is the Citizens Corps, CERT (http://www.citizencorps.gov/). Like REACT, amateurs are welcome but have no special status there.

RARES is intended as an amateur radio organization, putting the focus directly upon developing and advancing the use of amateur radio for ecomms.

REACT and CERT are both very good alternatives to ARESCOM, but neither of these three cover the area of action that ARES previously did - specializing in providing ecomms via amateur radio.

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

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KA8NCR

06-03-2005, 02:03 PM

Quote[/b] (WA2ZDY @ June 03 2005,04:10)]I'm going back to 40 CW
I'll meet you on 7.035. A cup o' coffee says we'll pass way more data there than what can be passed in a comparitive time over ax.25.

Let 'em fight over what it is they want to fight over as I'm tired of hearing which 20 year old mode is better for emergency communications and how many reflective stripes need to be placed on their orange vests.

Gentleman, until something other than AFSK is used for these networks, it's all a moot point. Ridiculous arguing who can send data faster when you're pretty much constrained by some pretty basic laws.

di dah di dah dit

W5HTW

06-03-2005, 02:25 PM

Quote[/b] (KC0NBW @ June 02 2005,15:43)]Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ June 01 2005,12:29)]Besides the internet thing, the big thing I shy away from is the "wannabe cop" concept. Too many people get ham licenses believing they are going to be authorities, and really have no interest in ham radio. They just want to be important, without going through the police academy. The new trend to offer metallic badges remindful of police and fire badges, is one I do not accept. I would be all for the kind of badge that is a laminated picture ID, worn on a chain around the neck, or with a squeeze clip to the shirt collar. But badges that tend to make outsiders thing we are cops are, in my opinion, a very firm no-no.
that's a carryover from the cb react types with their uniforms,lights on their cars and piddly little pa speakers under the hood.

people that have entirely too much time on their hands !
I agree. Just didn't want to say so! Since ham radio has been mostly populated in the past two decades by ex or continuing CBers, it is no surprise that what was 'learned' there was brought here. Not a thing against CBers. They have an interest in radio, (not the internet!!) which is what we need. The problem arose with those CBers who came into ham radio without leaving CB behind. They brought it with them.

The result was, as you say, the light bars, uniforms, hidden speakers under the hood, and a mad dash to 'the scene' the moment they police scanner told them there was something going on, even a traffic stop. The early REACT days were definitely academy-less cops. As ham radio moves in that direction more and more, we simultaneously degrade more and more, both our welcome and our usefulness with served agencies.

As to RARES, it would not hurt to have another organization. After all, we already have RACES and ARES. And one does not have to be an ARRL member to be in ARES, so presumably one would not have to be a RARES member to be in that group.

But any organization that promotes the quasi-cop method will be lacking my vote of confidence.

As to whether or not the internet is another ham radio mode, I guess I can accept that it is, if we include as ham radio modes, the post office and UPS, as well, as, of course, cell phones, FRS and MURS. All of those have their usefulness. So if we have a choice of CW, SSB, AM,FM, FRS, UPS, and USPS on our radios, then I guess we are really 'getting there.'

Ed

N5PVL

06-03-2005, 02:27 PM

ka8ncr says:
Quote[/b] ]
Gentleman, until something other than AFSK is used for these networks, it's all a moot point.

Looks like you have been out of the loop for a while there, OM.

Besides AX25 ( for which no superior replacement has ever been put forward ) amateurs interested in ecomms utilize PACTOR, PACTOR II, PACTOR III, CLOVER, MFSK, MT63 etc. and a number of other modes and protocols, depending upon what they are trying to do at the time.

ARESCOM on the other hand severely limits its participants, who must use the approved software in the approved method on the approved non-ham network etc. etc.. and so on.

Amateurs who do not like being told what software, mode or protocol to utilize will love RARES, which is not sold out to the SCS corporation. This allows a level of freedom of operation and flexibility that ARESCOM cannot match.

Amateurs who love experimentation and working to advance the hobby will love RARES, which is not sold out to the SCS corporation. This allows experimentation and advancement of the hobby that ARESCOM policy squelches by telling amateurs what software, protocol and mode they must utilize in order to participate.

di duh di duh dit

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

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N5PVL

06-03-2005, 04:04 PM

W5HTW says:
Quote[/b] ]
As to RARES, it would not hurt to have another organization. #After all, we already have RACES and ARES. #And one does not have to be an ARRL member to be in ARES, so presumably one would not have to be a RARES member to be in that group. #

But any organization that promotes the quasi-cop method will be lacking my vote of confidence. #

One way to see to it that RARES does not fall into that trap would be to participate in putting the organization together as one of its founders.

My original thought in this was to replicate ARES as it stood prior to the ARESCOM/WL2K scam. - An organization dedicated to amateur radio ecomms.

Now that you mention it though, I suppose that there are problems with the original ARES that need to be addressed. - And here is the golden opportunity for those who know what needs to be done - to do so and make a lasting impression.

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

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WA2ZDY

06-03-2005, 04:14 PM

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ June 03 2005,10:27)]ka8ncr says:
Quote[/b] ]
Gentleman, until something other than AFSK is used for these networks, it's all a moot point.

Looks like you have been out of the loop for a while there, OM.

Besides AX25 ( for which no superior replacement has ever been put forward ) amateurs interested in ecomms utilize PACTOR, PACTOR II, PACTOR III, CLOVER, MFSK, MT63 etc. and a number of other modes and protocols, depending upon what they are trying to do at the time.
Ummmm . . . last I knew (and I admit, I've been out of digital modes for about ten years) those modes were all sent via AFSK or psuedo FSK using AFSK and a SSB rig.

I believe PVL is onto something. I no longer trust ARRL to be doing what is best for ham radio. Look at the masthead on Q street "devoted entirely to amateur radio." But is it really? How many articles have you seen about FRS, scanning, SW listening, the internet, the internet, or the internet? See my point.

I have only skimmed over this Winlink2K issue, but it seems to me it's universally agreed to use it requires one to purchase some proprietary software. And now there have been indications that security is an issue with WL2K. These are warning flags - to me anyway.

But PVL, you do tend to lash out, rabidly, at anyone who isn't in lockstep with your feelings and thoughts on any particular subject. Some folks are still like I was when I got my ticket over 30 years ago: we were taught that ARRL is our friend. Then, nearly all US hams were members except those who felt (rightly so I've since decided) ripped off by incentive licensing. Then there are those who just don't know or understand all sides of the "ARRL issue."

Instead of educating, you lash out and all that does is make folks less inclined to hear your message. Education will go a lot farther than bashing and name-calling. Troll this and troll that. Everyone has and is entitled to an opinion. Even those who aren't on your wagon.

My feelings about ARES have already been posted above. I tend to think local groups will do what they feel suits them best. And if some feel that forming RARES with you is that path, then that will happen. For you to be beating folks over the head with it accomplishes nothing that can come to any good.

KA8NCR

06-03-2005, 05:27 PM

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ June 03 2005,07:27)]
Quote[/b] ]
Besides AX25 ( for which no superior replacement has ever been put forward ) amateurs interested in ecomms utilize PACTOR, PACTOR II, PACTOR III, CLOVER, MFSK, MT63 etc. and a number of other modes and protocols, depending upon what they are trying to do at the time.

There are superior replacements for ax.25, but you're such a fanboy that you'd never consider any of them. The only time you seem to mention Pactor is in conjunction with excessive whining about closed protocols..

The points I keep throwing your way that you conveniently ignore are:

1. AX.25 is 25 year old technology that has no hope of handling any realistic volume of modern traffic. A true emergency network, regardless of who organizes and oversees it, needs to be prepared to handle modern mail messages. That means dealing with MIME encapsulated messages and interfacing with accepted protocols for sending and receiving mail. I don't give a gnat's knee what you people use to do it, if you can't interface at the drop of the hat to these standards, you're wasting your time and the time of those at the served agency. Or to put it more bluntly, get your head out into the open air and view the problem for what it is and not who it is.

2. I really don't care if messages are routed over the Internet, Bitnet (remember that?), UUCP or the venerable fidonet, it doesn't change the sad fact that we're building networks with 300 baud backbones and 1200 baud local LANs. Gimme a break, when it comes to crunch time, these systems will be overwhelmed and vastly outperformed by CW and phone NTS nets.

Quote[/b] ]
ARESCOM on the other hand severely limits its participants, who must use the approved software in the approved method on the approved non-ham network etc. etc.. and so on.

So what, don't use it. I'm a big fan of independent networks anyway. Such a fan, that I'd bet if you had a superior network, they'd either use it or adopt what you've done. You know, that whole "build it and they will come" concept. Good luck though, getting anything accomplished with ax.25.

Quote[/b] ]
Amateurs who do not like being told what software, mode or protocol to utilize will love RARES, which is not sold out to the SCS corporation. This allows a level of freedom of operation and flexibility that ARESCOM cannot match.

You mean the same SCS that makes the above mentioned PACTOR III? Yeah, thought so.

Quote[/b] ]
di duh di duh dit

Uhm, okay.

Whining about the League isn't going to get them to change their mind about these things. The big selling point of these systems is the fact it plays nicely with mail clients that want to talk SMTP, POP and IMAP. That's probably the only strength, when I think about it.

I've said this to you before Charles, if you want to capture the League's attention, you have to come up with something better. I'd reference a project like the TAPR spread spectrum board, but I already know you hold TAPR in the same regard as the ARRL. You'll probably want to check with the HSMM people to see how they're doing with the HF, VHF, UHF and microwave spread spectrum boards. Then, armed with some embedded Linux single board machines, you should be able to create quite the high speed network.

Now, that would be an attention getter.

N5PVL

06-03-2005, 05:37 PM

WA2ZDY says:
Quote[/b] ]
ARES still seems to be on about an even keel where they actually do get used for the real deal often enough. #Here along the coast in NJ, we get coastal storms often enough to keep ARES/RACES busy. #So those groups stay the course and keep in practice.

I'd suspect the same thing happens in Florida and in tornado alley.

Actually, the non-ARESCOM ecomms workers in Florida are having to struggle very hard to remain in business, as WL2K goons there have done everything thay can to suck up all the funding available in that state, in addition to "rabidly" attacking established, experienced, dedicated and well-trained ecomms groups that have been operating there, saving lives and property for decades.

The problem with ARESCOM goons undercutting legitimate ecomms workers in Florida has been worse than anywhere else. - For the obvious reason.

Another factoid that may have escaped your notice is that Texas, another place where established ecomms groups are being "rabidly" edged out by ARESCOM/WL2K goons - is in tornado alley.

Your assumption that the WL2K goons would avoid ecomms hot spots where the funding really flows does not reflect the facts at all. - I wish it did, but reports from Florida and here in Texas do not support your theory.

I'm glad your group's efforts have not been undermined by ARESCOM/WL2K goons - yet.

Want to make a bet on whether you will be able to say the same thing a year from now?

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

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KA8NCR

06-03-2005, 05:38 PM

Quote[/b] (WA2ZDY @ June 03 2005,09:14)]
Quote[/b] ]
I believe PVL is onto something. I no longer trust ARRL to be doing what is best for ham radio. Look at the masthead on Q street "devoted entirely to amateur radio." But is it really? How many articles have you seen about FRS, scanning, SW listening, the internet, the internet, or the internet? See my point.

There were a whole series of articles in the 80's about programming BASIC on TRS-80 computers. I don't think we've sold out to Tandy Leather just yet.

While I agree that they've cut out some of the RF technology, remember that the hobby's horizons have increased in the past 30 years to include space communications and computerized modes. Have a computer literate base of amateur operators only helps the hobby, and like it or not, the Internet is part of that.

Quote[/b] ]
I have only skimmed over this Winlink2K issue, but it seems to me it's universally agreed to use it requires one to purchase some proprietary software. And now there have been indications that security is an issue with WL2K. These are warning flags - to me anyway.

I can see no security problems because there is no security. But I'm with you and Charles, proprietary pay-to-play software and protocols are a no-no.

Quote[/b] ]
My feelings about ARES have already been posted above. I tend to think local groups will do what they feel suits them best. And if some feel that forming RARES with you is that path, then that will happen. For you to be beating folks over the head with it accomplishes nothing that can come to any good.

I especially agree with your earlier comments about ARES.

I'll make this my final point in this thread; our data communications capabilities are slight at best. We're ill equipped to interface into modern data communications and networking. The fundamental problem is that we are still using a sippie-straw of bandwidth and our served agencies are going to expect a whole lot more. Our networks need to be redesigned to accomodate this, and arguing about ax.25, pactor and whatever-or is moot and silly because they are all equally unable to do the job.

N5PVL

06-03-2005, 06:12 PM

KA8NCR says:
Quote[/b] ]
I'll make this my final point in this thread; our data communications capabilities are slight at best. We're ill equipped to interface into modern data communications and networking. The fundamental problem is that we are still using a sippie-straw of bandwidth and our served agencies are going to expect a whole lot more. Our networks need to be redesigned to accomodate this, and arguing about ax.25, pactor and whatever-or is moot and silly because they are all equally unable to do the job.

Your final point was no point at all. There is a finite amount of bandwidth available for amateur radio applications. Dedicating all of our bandwidth to ecomms would still not satisfy the demand you pointed out. - So obviously that is not a solution that we can seriously consider.

Charles Brabham, N5PVL

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N4EBC

06-03-2005, 07:35 PM

An "Internet troll" or "Forum Troll" is a person who posts outrageous message to bait people to answer. Forum Troll delights in sowing discord on the forums. #A troll is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion. #Flaming discussions usually end with name calling and a flame war.

A classic QRZ troll is trying to make us believe that he is a skeptic. #He is divisive and argumentative with need-to-be-right attitude, "searching for the truth", #flaming discussion, and sometimes insulting people or provoking people to insult him. #Troll is usually an expert in reusing the same words of its opponents and in turning it against them.

While he tries to present himself as a skeptic looking for truth ... his messages usually sound as if it is the responsibility of #other forum members to provide evidence that what forum is all about is legitimate science.

The most basic form of trolling is to submit a post that will attract the most possible amount of responses, negative or argumentative replies usually preferred, and then to sit back and bask in the chaos that has been created. This troll is simply out for immediate scoreboard and a quick win is enough to satisfy him. The tactic is basic, relatively uncreative, and only touches the surface of what a troll can really do; yet its effective in accomplishing its singular task--to attract attention and garner as many responses as possible. The content delivered by this type of troll generally falls into several areas; It may consist of an obviously foolish opposition of common knowledge, many intentional offensive insults or flames directed to the readers of a community, or a blanket generation on a specific category which is sure to attract a large number of argumentative replies.

N5PVL you throw the term Troll around to describe many a poster here. Yet your simply calling the kettle black. I give you a C for effort as you are not the best rtoll I have come across but you do try awful hard.

KA8NCR

06-03-2005, 09:44 PM

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ June 03 2005,11:12)]Your final point was no point at all. There is a finite amount of bandwidth available for amateur radio applications. Dedicating all of our bandwidth to ecomms would still not satisfy the demand you pointed out. - So obviously that is not a solution that we can seriously consider.
Yes, there is a finite amount of bandwidth. But if you look beyond building things out with ax.25 and 300 baud HF backbones, you'll find the solution.

N5PVL

06-03-2005, 10:10 PM

Like what?

The digital net currently utilizes Packet, CLOVER, PACTOR and in some places MT63 and MFSK...

- As was pointed out in a post on the previous page.

Is there some new super-duper digital mode that I haven't heard about?

Seriously, working upon the basis of urban myths ( like the alleged all-Packet digital net ) is a very poor substitute for actually knowing what's going on - and commenting from that position.

I don't mind valid criticism - but my regard for criticism based upon recylced TAPR propaganda from the 1980's can only be measured in sub-micro give-a-hoots. - Especially when bothering to read previous posts in this same thread would have disabused you of that notion.

Now that your question has been answered though, would it bother you too terribly much if we got back on-topic one more time?

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

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KC5SAS

06-04-2005, 01:49 AM

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ June 03 2005,06:44)]REACT and CERT are both very good alternatives to ARESCOM, but neither of these three cover the area of action that ARES previously did - specializing in providing ecomms via amateur radio.
While amateur radio is important, when it comes to public service communications I think it's wrong to 'specialize' in any particular service to the exclusion of other modes or options. The goal is to get the message passed in a timely manner using the most efficient means. Sometimes that may mean using Ham Radio and other times it will mean using something else.
Of course, our local REACT team could be accused of specializing in amateur radio since all of the members are hams and most of us use ham radio exclusively on HF and the repeaters and APRS digis operated by the REACT Team. Only recently have some of us explored using services other than Ham Radio such as FRS/GMRS and MURS. Personally, I can't justify spending a couple hundred dollaras on a radio in another service when everyone in the Team I'm working with already has 2m/440 radios.

KA8NCR

06-04-2005, 02:06 AM

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ June 03 2005,15:10)]
Quote[/b] ]
Is there some new super-duper digital mode that I haven't heard about?

Do you actually read these things, or are you simply stuck on transmit?

Amateurs need to get their collective poop in a group and come up with something else. If television guys can squirt HD video on COFDM for miles using half-watt transmitters with nary a hiccup, I'm certain amateurs should be able to come up with something of less complexity, less bandwidth and still a magnitude of greater throughput than ax.25.

KD7WHQ

06-04-2005, 02:43 AM

Emcomm.

Lowest common demoninator is the priority; voice.

Push comes to shove, I can get this radio out of the house, but the computer and laptop are left behind.

Digital is all well and fine, when it comes to drills, but..

As said here or elsewhere, when the infrastructure is gone..

N4EBC

06-04-2005, 01:59 PM

There is nothing wrong with enhancing a system that is already in place as long as the meat and potatoes stay the same.

In ARES case as long as at its core it remains RADIO then there is nothing wrong with enhancing its potential. I agree when you start to deviate away from this core and start to talk about REPLACING the radio with digital modes IRLP internet VoIP cell phones then you run the risk of failure because all of these have failed at one time or another. The one constant in a disaster when all else has failed is the radio emitting RF energy.

But no where have I read or seen where the ARRL and ARES is going to replace back up radio communications (RF energy) with IRLP WinLink VoIP what ever. .All I have seen/read is the ARRL enhancing what is already a very reliable form of back up communications the radio.

You are simply reading something that isn’t there. Amateur Radio operators for the most part didn’t fall off the turnip truck yesterday. Any one worth there salt knows that you don’t put all your eggs into one basket and you certainly don’t rely on systems that are prone to failure. Ham radio is lucky in that simplex radio communications are inherently redundant there almost 100% fail safe. As long as there is power to run the radios (Batteries Generators Solar Power) there will be a way to communicate.

I honestly don’t think that a group committed to EMCOMM as ARES claims to be would mess and try to replace a system such as Ham radio with the internet or cell phones. It just simply doesn’t make any sense.

w5alt

06-04-2005, 02:31 PM

Quote[/b] (N4EBC @ June 04 2005,09:59)]But no where have I read or seen where the ARRL and ARES is going to replace back up radio communications (RF energy) with IRLP WinLink VoIP what ever. .All I have seen/read is the ARRL enhancing what is already a very reliable form of back up communications the radio.
and no where have I read that they are NOT considering it, either.

Quote[/b] ]You are simply reading something that isn’t there. ...
I think everyone is reading into things what they want. Which just goes to show how wonderfully the ARRL, The National Association for Amateur Radio, communicates with hams.

Quote[/b] ]I honestly don’t think that a group committed to EMCOMM as ARES claims to be would mess and try to replace a system such as Ham radio with the internet or cell phones. It just simply doesn’t make any sense.
So, wouldn't it make sense for ARRL and/or ARES leadership to make a statement that they also see things as you do? It seems to me that would end the discussion. They've had ample opportunity to say so - this is nothing new.

But so far they've chosen not to deny it. Maybe you're just more trusting than I am ...

73,
Walt, W5ALT

N4EBC

06-04-2005, 03:09 PM

Quote[/b] (w5alt @ June 04 2005,07:31)]Quote[/b] (N4EBC @ June 04 2005,09:59)]But no where have I read or seen where the ARRL and ARES is going to replace back up radio communications (RF energy) with IRLP WinLink VoIP what ever. .All I have seen/read is the ARRL enhancing what is already a very reliable form of back up communications the radio.
and no where have I read that they are NOT considering it, either.

Quote[/b] ]You are simply reading something that isn’t there. ...
I think everyone is reading into things what they want. Which just goes to show how wonderfully the ARRL, The National Association for Amateur Radio, communicates with hams.

Quote[/b] ]I honestly don’t think that a group committed to EMCOMM as ARES claims to be would mess and try to replace a system such as Ham radio with the internet or cell phones. It just simply doesn’t make any sense.
So, wouldn't it make sense for ARRL and/or ARES leadership to make a statement that they also see things as you do? It seems to me that would end the discussion. They've had ample opportunity to say so - this is nothing new.

But so far they've chosen not to deny it. Maybe you're just more trusting than I am ...

73,
Walt, W5ALT
I agree Walt to a certain extent. Yes a statement would be nice the peception is there and I can see where some might draw other conclusions.

It just stands to reason that a orginazation that represents Ham RADIO would not try to replace the RADIO with the internet. Unless there trying to become the American Internet Relay League.

As I said there is nothing wrong with enhancement and augmenting but there is a problem with replacing. I have seen no intent to replace any where and have recieved information that this simply isn't the case.

N5PVL

06-04-2005, 10:25 PM

N4EBC says:
Quote[/b] ]
As I said there is nothing wrong with enhancement and augmenting but there is a problem with replacing. I have seen no intent to replace any where and have recieved information that this simply isn't the case.

I am curious... How do you "enhance and augment" a radio link with the Internet - without replacing it?

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

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n8yx

06-05-2005, 10:17 AM

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ June 04 2005,15:25)]N4EBC says:
Quote[/b] ]
As I said there is nothing wrong with enhancement and augmenting but there is a problem with replacing. I have seen no intent to replace any where and have recieved information that this simply isn't the case.

I am curious... How do you "enhance and augment" a radio link with the Internet - without replacing it?

Charles Brabham, N5PVL

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The same way we once "...enhanced and augmented..." the packet radio network (and effectively killed it in the process), perhaps?

N5PVL

06-05-2005, 12:14 PM

KA8NCR says:
Quote[/b] ]
N5PVL:
Quote[/b] ] #
Is there some new super-duper digital mode that I haven't heard about?

Do you actually read these things, or are you simply stuck on transmit?

Amateurs need to get their collective poop in a group and come up with something else. #If television guys can squirt HD video on COFDM for miles using half-watt transmitters with nary a hiccup, I'm certain amateurs should be able to come up with something of less complexity, less bandwidth and still a magnitude of greater throughput than ax.25.

In other words, you have nothing to offer which would work better than the amateur radio network you are disparaging. - You just want to run down what those amateurs do.

Also, it appears that you have yet to be introduced to the laws of physics and economics - two very important factors that it does not pay to overlook.

Those obsolete, recycled TAPR attitudes from the 1980's are like - really tired. Don't you ever feel bad about disparging the hobby and its participants to no particular purpose?

Also: If you are frustrated because the none of the propaganda that TAPR and ARRL's HSMM group has been putting out for decades has turned out to have any basis in reality - no advanced digital infrastructure in place for amateurs to use - don't you think you should be complaining about them instead of complaining about me?

I'm not in charge of TAPR or the ARRL HSMM project... If I were, we would soon be having these discussions over an advanced, independent amateur radio digital network instead of here on QRZ.Com.

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

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N5PVL

06-05-2005, 01:43 PM

RARES - Real Amateur Radio Emergency Service

To recap: #Amateur Radio ecomm workers whose activities are being undermined and/or downplayed by the new ARESCOM group that has embraced WL2K ( and then went on to go to bed with them ) are not being given any voice in the matter by the ARRL.

Amateurs who want to provide ecomms, not email service and do it with Radio, not the Internet should just go on with the good work they are currently doing, and organize thier activities under RARES, since the new 'ARESCOM' regime at ARRL has no place or regard for them.

Contact: cbrabham@hampoll.com

( Please put 'RARES' somewhere in the subject line. )

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

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KA8NCR

06-05-2005, 01:56 PM

Quote[/b] ]
In other words, you have nothing to offer which would work better than the amateur radio network you are disparaging. - You just want to run down what those amateurs do.

As opposed to you running down what other amateurs are doing, ostensibly because it excludes you? Pot please meet Mr. Kettle, Mr. Kettle, Mr. Pot.

Quote[/b] ]
Also, it appears that you have yet to be introduced to the laws of physics and economics - two very important factors that it does not pay to overlook

You have me pegged there Charles, all those years of engineering classes and I somehow managed to do it without stepping foot into a physics class. And to think, I was lumbering through Lagrange multipliers while you enjoyed coffee and thought provoking, lively discussions with Mr. Nyquist himself. Sir, I am truly humbled.

Quote[/b] ]
Those obsolete, recycled TAPR attitudes from the 1980's are like - really tired. Don't you ever feel bad about disparging the hobby and its participants to no particular purpose?

Again, as opposed to you who gets his panties in a bunch over people who have the nerve to exclude you and your reality from emergency communications. I'm not "disparging" (sic) anything but your twisted concepts are some sort of panacea for emergency data communications. I'm trying to clue you in that the ARRL isn't out to get you and they're not trying to sell-out amateur radio by endorsing a mail system that supports open Internet standards like SMTP, POP and IMAP. What the ARRL is trying to do is make amateur radio relevant for email exchange during emergencies. YOU ARE FREE TO DO THE SAME, just get out whatever language you prefer to program with and have at it. You can even make the transport layer ax.25.

Quote[/b] ]
Also: If you are frustrated because the none of the propaganda that TAPR and ARRL's HSMM group has been putting out for decades has turned out to have any basis in reality - no advanced digital infrastructure in place for amateurs to use - don't you think you should be complaining about them instead of complaining about me?

Actually, I'm frustrated over your continued smear jobs. You're the one that has a problem with anything someone else proposes, not I. I think Winlink is a great idea because it supports drop-in replacement for a MTA. It plays nicely with others. Although, I definetly think it has some shortcomings, it is what it is. Its performance has yet to be established during emergency communications. However, those shortcomings are no greater than with what we have now. If an amateur is enamoured with it and wants to experiment with Winlink, I'm all for it and I'm not about to throw that person (or persons) into a category of "amateur radio saboteurs"

Just so you feel better, I'm not all that keen on using 802.11 technology in Part 97 either. The HSMM people make some sweeping assumptions of the rules and regulations, capabilities and security of such systems. But I've had that discussion with them and they've offered reasonable responses on mitigating those problems and more to my personal tastes, have been actively working on amateur spread spectrum technology.

Quote[/b] ]
I'm not in charge of TAPR or the ARRL HSMM project... If I were, we would soon be having these discussions over an advanced, independent amateur radio digital network instead of here on QRZ.Com

So what's stopping you, sport? I've extended the same challenge to you over and over and over again on QRZ for each of these threads you create. If you don't like what the ARRL has proposed, build something better. Obviously, since I am uneducated in physics and economics, I can not be of much assistance. But please do let me know when your network is completed so I can send you a hearty congratulatory note over the said network, and you can let me know you'll be sending me ketchup in which to enjoy my crow.

Or, you can just accept that other amateurs are not going to play in your ax.25 fanboy clubhouse and that doesn't necessarily make them for or against amateur radio.

N5PVL

06-05-2005, 03:27 PM

RARES - Real Amateur Radio Emergency Service

To recap: #Amateur Radio ecomm workers whose activities are being undermined and/or downplayed by the new ARESCOM group that has embraced WL2K ( and then went on to go to bed with SCS ) are not being given any voice in the matter by the ARRL.

Amateurs who want to provide ecomms, not email service and do it with Radio, not the Internet should just go on with the good work they are currently doing, and organize thier activities under RARES, since the new 'ARESCOM' regime at ARRL has no place or regard for them.

Contact: cbrabham@hampoll.com

( Please put 'RARES' somewhere in the subject line. )

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

Director: USPacket (http://www.uspacket.org)
Admin: HamBlog.Com (http://www.hamblog.com)
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Weblog: N5PVL's #Blog (http://www.hamblog.com/blog_n5pvl.php)

k6ncx

06-06-2005, 04:22 AM

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ June 03 2005,06:44)]REACT and CERT are both very good alternatives to ARESCOM, but neither of these three cover the area of action that ARES previously did - specializing in providing ecomms via amateur radio.
Leaving aside the absurdity of your "that ARES previously did" potshot, the vital point that you seem to fail to understand is that the local, state, and federal government agencies served don't give a rodent's hindquarter (nor should they) about maintaining the purity of amateur radio. Neither do (nor should they) the Red Cross, Salvation Army, and other private agency folks. Your "amateur radio or nothing" attitude is what is increasing making all of us unwanted and unwelcome, because nobody wants to deal with a bunch of prima donnas.

N5PVL

06-06-2005, 05:49 PM

Amazing how you can turn a recommendation for REACT and CERT around into a "amateur radio or nothing" attitude about ecomms, OM. #

Do you ever look over your posts before sending them, to see if they might relate to what you are responding to?

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

Director: USPacket (http://www.uspacket.org)
Admin: HamBlog.Com (http://www.hamblog.com)
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k6ncx

06-08-2005, 03:49 AM

Yes, OM, I do read what I have written before posting. Do you? And yes, what I posted relates quite directly to what I was responding to. Are you too clueless to understand? Or are you just not honest with yourself, or with anyone else?

I don't think, "neither of these three cover the area of action that ARES previously did - specializing in providing ecomms via amateur radio" is exactly a straightforward "recommendation" for CERT or REACT.

Not that, at this point, I would expect anything straightforward from you.

And that's not where I got "amateur radio or nothing" from.

N5PVL

06-10-2005, 03:16 PM

All done with your little hissy-fit, ncx?

To get back on-topic:

RARES - Real Amateur Radio Emergency Service

To recap: #Amateur Radio ecomm workers whose activities are being undermined and/or downplayed by the new ARESCOM group that has embraced WL2K ( and then went on to go to bed with them ) are not being given any voice in the matter by the ARRL.

Amateurs who want to provide ecomms, not email service and do it with Radio, not the Internet should just go on with the good work they are currently doing, and organize thier activities under RARES, since the new 'ARESCOM' regime at ARRL has no place or regard for them.

Contact: cbrabham@hampoll.com

We're looking for experienced ecomm workers who are interested in helping other hams displaced by ARESCOM - and so can no longer depend upon the ARRL or ARES for support.

For my part, I am offering the new group web services to help them get started up and organized. To keep things on the up and up, I am disqualifying myself from any position of authority or responsibility within the resulting organization.

( Please put 'RARES' somewhere in the subject line. )

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

Director: USPacket (http://www.uspacket.org)
Admin: HamBlog.Com (http://www.hamblog.com)
Webmaster: HamPoll.Com (http://www.hampoll.com)
Weblog: N5PVL's #Blog (http://www.hamblog.com/blog_n5pvl.php)

W3MIV

06-10-2005, 03:56 PM

The topic is dead, Charles, as Li'l Abner might put it, "as any fool can plainly see." It is beyond resuscitation.

If you go back and read over the posts, you will find that most of them were made by you, and that most of them were ill-tempered rejoinders to criticism that you inspired from the very start.

My advice, which I know you will not heed, is to let it go.

N5PVL

06-15-2005, 01:06 PM

Looking back over this topic, I found that legitimate responses were overshadowed by troll-o-grams such as you have provided, but not so badly as it seemed at first glance.

Overall, almost 40% of the responses were legitimate, on-topic posts and only around 60% of the posts here were mindless trolls.

When you consider the fact that almost all of the troll-o-grams were multiple postings, it turns out that the majority of the responders here were intelligent, concerned amateurs.

The small number of trolls here can be dismissed out of hand. Sure, they take up valuable time and space as is the wont of trolls - but overall the trolls had little or no impact on the actual discussion, and the original purpose of this discussion was well served.

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

Director: USPacket (http://www.uspacket.org)
Admin: HamBlog.Com (http://www.hamblog.com)
Webmaster: HamPoll.Com (http://www.hampoll.com)
Weblog: N5PVL's #Blog (http://www.hamblog.com/blog_n5pvl.php)