Ham Radio, Worldwide is Crashing Down

[K2WH]

CQ Magazine has lost its mind. #With all the talk about Ham Radio being the last communications resource if “All Else Fails” including the internet, now CQ magazine wants to utilize or lean on that very same internet for this idiotic, paper wasting, dumbed down quasi-wired-unwired, RF hating DX award.

Free licenses, licenses for life, deregulation, BPL, No Code, Non-Governmental Licensing, VoIP, Echolink, Wires, Eqsl #etc. #Whats a REAL radio operator to do?

************************************************** *********************************
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CQ introduces “iDX” Award (May 27, 2005) --

CQ Amateur Radio magazine has announced the introduction of the “iDX Award,” the final component of its three-part “Waking Up DXing” program designed to encourage more DXing activity. “The iDX Award brings back and updates an old concept of introductory-level awards to help bring newer hams into the sport and mindset of DXing,” explained CQ Editor Rich Moseson, W2VU. The CQ iDX Award recognizes confirmed contacts with 25 to 100 different countries--or entities--made using remote bases or repeaters linked with Voice over Internet Protocol (VoIP) networks such as IRLP or EchoLink. Because virtually all new hams today come into Amateur Radio as Technicians operating VHF and UHF, Novice awards have been largely discontinued,” Moseson noted. “The iDX Award brings the concept of the Novice award to where newer hams are operating today.” CQ DX Awards Manager Billy Williams, N4UF, says the demarcation between wired and wireless communication has been blurred by modern integrated systems employed by public safety agencies and commercial users. "This blurring of the line between wired and wireless has already reached Amateur Radio in several ways--using the Internet to collect and distribute DX spots, propagation data and location information, to link existing VHF and UHF repeaters over great distances and to access an HF remote base station.” Williams says the CQ iDX Award will focus on the last two activities. “The CQ iDX Award recognizes the changing landscape and its inevitable effect on where Amateur Radio will be in 2020." Contacts must use radio on at least one end of the link to count for the award. Computer-to-computer contacts, while possible on such systems as EchoLink, will not count toward this award. Contacts for the new award may be made starting January 1, 2006. Complete details are in the June 2005 issue of CQ and on the CQ Web site. CQ previously introduced the CQ DX Field Award and the CQ DX Marathon as the first two parts of its “Waking Up DXing” program.

Boycott CQ Magazine!

[W3MIV]

Yep. The sky is falling for sure. Probably some ARRL committee behind it all.

[n0iu]

The next thing you know dogs will be sleeping with cats!

[K0RGR]

It will be interesting to see if this generates more activity on Echolink, or if it results in a backlash as foreign Echolink gateways lock out U.S. callsigns looking for quick contacts for award credit. If they're going to do this, they should also offer something of interest to our DX counterparts - an i-WAS for example, to encourage them to connect with us.

I predict that it will prove to be harder to get than it looks. Even though CQ will accept 'verifiable emails' as proof of the QSO, I suspect getting confirmation will be harder than expected.

In any case, I have no objection. If CQ wants to sponsor this award, great, so long as it increases the amount of on-the-air activity.

Looking ahead, if FCC does grant HF priveleges to Techs, I think we can safely predict that there will be some drop in 2 meter activity, which is not desirable. At that point, we will probably want to strongly encourage Echolink, etc.. just to keep the bands active, more so than today.

[kb2vxa]

Syug ih,

"The next thing you know dogs will be sleeping with cats!"

What do you think a cat house is for?

What's so new about CQ? They're a bit behind the times, about a month I'd say since the last land line lid trophy was awarded. I correspond with Australia all the time using e-mail, can I get a DX award from Microsoft? Hey, do any of you send CW using a touch pad? If so which number is your favorite tone?

Since someone has his tongue-in-cheek I guess it's time for my hamster to come out.

"Looking ahead, if FCC does grant HF priveleges to Techs..."
Not likely.

"I think we can safely predict that there will be some drop in 2 meter activity..."
Again, not likely.

"...which is not desirable."
What might be desirable is for some to migrate to 222 and 70cM.

"At that point, we will probably want to strongly encourage Echolink, etc.. just to keep the bands active, more so than today."
They tried and failed, virtually no EL or IRLP activity around here. I wonder if they ever figured out that you don't need a license to use it, just "borrow" someone's. (Haow 'bout it skiplayund, c'mawn.)

'Scuse me while I run on my wheel, the battery in my portable needs charging.

[N8CPA]

So CQ has gone completely to the dark side, all the way from wireless to wirelessless. I had a feeling they would some day. That's why I cancelled even the last sample subscription I had to the rag severalyears ago. The editorial staff was the lodestone of the direction they had chosen. Over the years since I cancelled, some of the names have changed, but the same monolithic mindset has persisted.

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (N8CPA @ May 27 2005,22:17)]Over the years since I cancelled, some of the names have changed, but the same monolithic mindset has persisted.
The irony, of course, is that this "monolithic mindset" against which you rage is a little more than a mirror image of the "monolithic mindset" that impels you to oppose it.

Many of us, most perhaps, do not like the changes that are impacting amateur radio (among other things, perhaps everything). But the reality is that the thing we hate most is the change.

Rant and rail to no avail. The changes will come, like them or not.

[W0UZR]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ May 28 2005,05:13)]Many of us, most perhaps, do not like the changes that are impacting amateur radio (among other things, perhaps everything). But the reality is that the thing we hate most is the change
Did you ever stop to try and figure out WHY hams belly ache about change in testing, and other requirements, or any of the things mentioned?

Well, I'll tell you, since you don't know.

I don't know how long you have been a ham, but I assume it hasn't been 30+ years, so maybe you don't know about what Amateur Radio was really like then and what dumbing down does to the "QUALITY" of the service. They dumbed the testing and requirements down, and they dumbed it down some more!
And now what we have as a result is, is what you say we are hearing on 40 & 80, all kinds of trash, right?. The testing that there was years ago before it was dumbed down, you couldn't pass and become a ham unless you were serious about actually KNOWING something, and serious about radio. And now, all you have to do is memorize the questions.
And those of us that can remember radio 30 & 40 years ago, talking with those boys are a heck of a lot different than talking to a lot of them now.
So the reason that people gripe about change is because amateur radio's quality isn't anywhere near as good as it was before all these wonderful "Changes" that you think are so great took place. And the quality of ham radio was MUCH better then. And the assinine quality of people that you hear now on the bands wouldn't bother putting forth that much effort and discipline to actually learn something and know something to be able to pass the test like it was back then. Now all you have to do is "Memorize" the answers. So if the testing procedures or anything else stayed the same as it was 30 & 40 years ago until now, the bands would be a lot different to listen to. It would be a lot like when Amateur radio was real Amateur radio with people that KNEW something like 30 & 40 years ago.

So you think we shouldn't complain about change? I think we have a GOOD reason to complain.

And so, years ago it worked, and radio was good, and now it's not good. So OBVIOUSLY the changes, and dumbing it down didn't make the ""Hobby""(asYouLikeToCallit) Better. Now did it?

I know the topic isn't about "Testing Requirements"
But Any changes are a threat to the quality and integrity of the service. And a lot of us don't like changes because,,,

like the proverbial phrase goes,,,,,

<span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:purple'>IF IT WORKS, DON'T FIX IT!</span></span>

[N8CPA]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ May 28 2005,09:13)]Quote[/b] (N8CPA @ May 27 2005,22:17)]Over the years since I cancelled, some of the names have changed, but the same monolithic mindset has persisted.
The irony, of course, is that this "monolithic mindset" against which you rage is a little more than a mirror image of the "monolithic mindset" that impels you to oppose it.

Many of us, most perhaps, do not like the changes that are impacting amateur radio (among other things, perhaps everything). But the reality is that the thing we hate most is the change.

Rant and rail to no avail. The changes will come, like them or not.
You're absolutely right! Nothing will stop it! Would that I were such a monolith to be able to do so!

But nothing will stop me from raging against the "dying of the light" by making sure that the enablers of mindsets injurious to the Amateur Radio Service do not profit from me, while profitting from the ongoing compromise of the autonomy of the Amateur Radio Service. I will not put money where their mouths are when it's obvious what they've been kissing which is exactly what that award represents! They are kissing up to people who don't know the difference between a service and a utility. If anyone ever tries to impress me with a wall full of such paper, I'll show a copy of my more meaningful phone bill: "Look at all the numbers I dialed correctly!"

[ai4ep]

(gasp)...do you mean to tell all of us that the " dumbing down of amateur radio " has been going on for years ?

Some folks might not take those words too lightly.

After all, they DID pass the FCC rerquirements for being a GENERAL /ADVANCED/EXTRA all these years ago.

Is that the message you wish to say to them to their face, or just while hiding behind a keyboard ?

Just remember that in the upper left corner of each & every post that you ( or I ) make, our FCC callsign is there for several reasons....now I am going to get out of the sun, and back under the porch in the shade and I might bark some.

ai4ep

[W3MIV]

UZR:

Thank you for proving my point. Progress cannot logically nor reasonably be opposed, however ardent the stopgap nor meritorious the cause.

Time flies, as they say, all will not stay its sway for the briefest fraction of the day.

progress
n.
1. [Movement forward] — Syn. progression, advance, headway, impetus, velocity, pace, momentum, motion, rate, step, stride, current, flow, tour, circuit, transit, journey, voyage, march, expedition, locomotion, ongoing, passage, course, procession, process, lapse of time, march of events, course of life, movement of the stars, motion through space. — Ant. STOP, stay, stand.

What is less lovely is that I would wager that for every voice of outrage such as yours there is another equally adamant in support of the very ideas you abominate.

In the argot of the bumper sticker: get over it.

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (kb0uzr @ May 28 2005,08:11)]So the reason that people gripe about change is because amateur radio's quality isn't anywhere near as good as it was before all these wonderful "Changes" that you think are so great took place. And the quality of ham radio was MUCH better then. And the assinine quality of people that you hear now on the bands wouldn't bother putting forth that much effort and discipline to actually learn something and know something to be able to pass the test like it was back then. Now all you have to do is "Memorize" the answers. So if the testing procedures or anything else stayed the same as it was 30 & 40 years ago until now, the bands would be a lot different to listen to. It would be a lot like when Amateur radio was real Amateur radio with people that KNEW something like 30 & 40 years ago.
I listened to CB and Amateur radio in the 60's, and although what you are saying is true, your characterization sounds more appropriate for CB than for Ham radio. Most ham operators are still following good practices and are considerate.

Perhaps over time, the dumbed down environment will result in significant deterioration. I am worried about that. Based on the CB experience, if the conversion to the Dark Side happens, it will likely happen with exponential speed.

Here is what I propose: If the bands do fill up with hoardes of QRMing yahoos, then use what you know to join in the chaos with a better, louder signal. Pick a nice handle, like "Stompin' Steve" and say what you want on any frequency you want. If the FCC had such a hard time shutting down one rogue operator on the repeaters in Southern California, imagine how much harder it will be for them to catch thousands of sharp HF operators! Enjoy the hobby before it becomes largely abandoned by non-usability.

73,
Dave/al2i

[N5PVL]

W3MIV says:
Quote[/b] ]
The irony, of course, is that this "monolithic mindset" against which you rage is a little more than a mirror image of the "monolithic mindset" that impels you to oppose it.


MIV appears to be a big fan of the "just lay back and enjoy it" school.

Charles Brabham, N5PVL

Director: USPacket (http://www.uspacket.org)
Admin: HamBlog.Com (http://www.hamblog.com)
Webmaster: HamPoll.Com (http://www.hampoll.com)
Weblog: N5PVL's Blog (http://www.hamblog.com/blog_n5pvl.php)

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ May 28 2005,09:03)]Thank you for proving my point. Progress cannot logically nor reasonably be opposed, however ardent the stopgap nor meritorious the cause.
This incredibly illogical statement is laid down as such a bombastic absolute, that I initially thought it was the opening to a work of comedic genius. Since I could not find any subsequent mirth, perhaps it is a quote taken out of context or something.

Despite its improper application to the current debate, the statement is a textbook example of the Fallacy of Ambiguity simply from the term "progress". How about the "progress" of a disease? Can it be logically or reasonably opposed?

[K0RGR]

Quote[/b] ]"Looking ahead, if FCC does grant HF priveleges to Techs..."
Not likely

Well, I'd say your crystal ball is in dire need of cleaning. The Commission painted themselves in a corner in their last proceeding, when they said the only reason they were keeping the 5 WPM was the International regulation, and basically dismissed all of the arguments that the opponents of no-code HF priveleges are putting forth now. If they reverse their previous position, they have to explain why that position was valid then, and not valid now, or they leave themselves open to legal challenges.

Now that most of Europe and the rest of the civilized world have dropped the code test, I can't imagine FCC not doing something to conform.


Quote[/b] ]"I think we can safely predict that there will be some drop in 2 meter activity..."
Again, not likely.


Well, you may be right here. I was being charitable. In most parts of the country two meter activity is already so low that it can't drop any lower.


Quote[/b] ]"At that point, we will probably want to strongly encourage Echolink, etc.. just to keep the bands active, more so than today."
They tried and failed, virtually no EL or IRLP activity around here. I wonder if they ever figured out that you don't need a license to use it, just "borrow" someone's.


The same way you can get on the air without a license if you buy a radio on eBay. #Nothing new here. The Echolink authenticators make a reasonable effort to verify the identity of their users, and recently improved it a whole lot. If there is any doubt, they require you to send in a copy of your license before you can use the code. That doesn't mean that they can't be fooled. Echolink recently started accepting digitally-signed 'Logbook of the World' certificates for authentication. I wish they'd make everybody re-register and require these, which would eliminate all doubt!

[W3MIV]

I intended a reply, but have reconsidered it. Whatever you fellows think is OK by me. I am too busy to argue.

[KC0NBW]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ May 28 2005,11:23)]Now that most of Europe and the rest of the civilized world have dropped the code test, I can't imagine FCC not doing something to conform.
why don't you list all the countries that have dropped the code requirement for us?

maybe we can learn something !

actually, ''most of europe and the rest of the civilized world'' have not dropped the code requirement !

[K0RGR]

Quote[/b] (KC0NBW @ May 28 2005,11:59)]Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ May 28 2005,11:23)]Now that most of Europe and the rest of the civilized world have dropped the code test, I can't imagine FCC not doing something to conform.
why don't you list all the countries that have dropped the code requirement for us?

maybe we can learn something !

actually, ''most of europe and the rest of the civilized world'' have not dropped the code requirement !
Well, I suppose if you're counting countries like they do at the U.N., you are correct. In terms of countries that actually have hams, far more than 50% of the hams in the world already reside in countries that have a no-code HF license. I only need to name 3 : Japan, Great Britain, Germany. That's over 50% of the world's hams. Throw in Australia and New Zealand, and you've got a pretty good majority.

If you don't believe me, you can go look up the ham population numbers on the web yourself. I'm not going to do any more of your homework for you.

Here's some more that have dropped it: France, Sweden, Hong Kong, Iceland, Denmark, Croatia, Papua New Guinea, Finland, Luxembourg, Singapore, Ireland, Holland, Norway, Austria, Belgium, Switzerland. Canada is reportedly heading that way.

You're right, that's certainly not everybody, but I am also not by any means sure that's all that have done it, either. I am not a 'No Code International' member and don't keep track of this stuff - that's just what I found on the web - mostly on their website.

Don't get me wrong. If we could go back to the way things were in 1965 when I got my license, I would go for it right now, as long as we could be assured that people would actually be interested in getting the Novice license. Some folks, like those that think we could have won the war in Vietnam, too, believe otherwise, but people stopped lining up to get the Novice license, and the big excuse given at the time was the code test. So, we stupidly created a no-code license restricted to the VHF-only bands because that's what the International rules said it had to be.

So, while we wait for this mess to get fixed, however it gets fixed, CQ magazine is offering an award for people using Echolink to avoid being bored to death on 2 meters. I applaud them.

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ May 28 2005,08:48)](gasp)...do you mean to tell all of us that the " dumbing down of amateur radio " has been going on for years ?

Some folks might not take those words too lightly.

After all, they DID pass the FCC rerquirements for being a GENERAL /ADVANCED/EXTRA all these years ago.
"Years" connotes different things for different folks in different eras.

The current sound of 40/75 meters, and some of 20 meters, actually came about after the VEC took over licensing, which I believe was in 1987. That's nearly 20 "years" ago. Those hams who had their buddies award them their tickets (and the early VEC days were probably 40-50 percent "give my buddy a ham license") found themselves on 75 meters the day after leaving Channel 19. And with almost a day's training, too. Today, though, the constitute the "Medium/Old Timers group." They are the example by which those who followed, in 1990, 1995, 2000, and 2005, arrive at the conclusion, "Ah, so THAT'S what ham radio is all about?!"

It is certainly true that, as the nation began its "anti-establishment" attitudes in the late 1960s, those attitudes spread into ham radio as well. I can remember hearing some young fellows, Generals, in Philadelphia, using "damn" and "hell" on the air, in around 1964. Wow! And a couple of them even said things that could be called suggestive, though I never heard the "F" word on the air back then.

However, that was a couple of guys. That's all. On a band full of hams, perhaps 30 or 50 or even more, on 75 meters. Sounded bad, but they were definitely a very tiny minority, and no ham I knew would talk with them (which was OK with them, of course) or would listen to them.

We raised a new crop of Americans following the 60s. Not just hams, but Americans en toto. Still, they were a minority.

That is no longer true. And that statement applies to the ham bands as well. Part of the reason, of course, has to be that the FCC, in its financially-strapped non-glory, decided "the hell with ham radio." When the cops go home, the crooks can play. When the FCC shut its ears (and its monitoring stations) the good old American spirit of 'anything goes if I don't get caught" got into the ham bands.

So here we are.

Yeah, it's a vastly different world today. And as MIV says, it ain't gonna change. What he leaves out, is the phrase, "except for the worse." Perhaps for him it isn't the worse.

I admit it. I'm about to give up. Why? Because the hobby has changed enough that it is no longer fun. And when a hobby ceases to be fun, it becomes a drudgery. Medicine. Work. I do plan to scale back, to downsize. And I may downsize right out of it, to oil painting or photography, I have yet to make that decision.

The big changes, though, came first with the VEC program, which has largely corrected itself today (though not entirely) and with the code free ham ticket in 1991.

As to CQ magazine? Guess what? CQ was on the side of the EIA back in 1964, when it seemed much of the commercial electrical and electronics world was clamoring for a code free ham ticket! Yep! Even then, the CBers wanted to be hams, by Jove, and "Why can't I get on 20 meters and shoot skip?" And CQ backed that.

The stripes are still there.

Ed

[W0UZR]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ May 28 2005,08:17)]Enjoy the hobby before it becoms largely abandoned by non-usability.
Thanks, And I AM!

I'm radioing as much as possible, relishing every moment while there are still a fair amount of quality operators left before it turns into CB....

[KD7WHQ]

Actually, I think you would find should the NCT's being allowed to access HF, wouldn't have any real impact.

6 and 2m, and up are a lot less expensive in way of antennas, and also the antennas take up a lot less in the way of space.

Most would still be cutting teeth on V/UHF, and would curve in, although even the kids I have talked to needed little instruction on operating practice.

I guess my point would be, it doesn't matter what the test was, it's on-air behaviour that matters.

And my experience to this point of the non-priorly initiated, is that it wouldn't impact HF near as hard by far as made out.

At this point, it's much ado about nothing, as nothing has changed to this point.

But, even if it does, as I said, I don't see the impact predicted.

At least from this area..

[W0UZR]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ May 28 2005,08:03)]What is less lovely is that I would wager that for every voice of outrage such as yours there is another equally adamant in support of the very ideas you abominate.
Outrage?
# I was just trying to put the fact out as I see them. #How is it everytime I try to explain the way it is then and now, people think I'm ranting and raving?

Quote[/b] (AL2I @ May 28 2005,08:17)]Here is what I propose: #If the bands do fill up with hoardes of QRMing yahoos, then use what you know to join in the chaos with a better, louder signal. #Pick a nice handle, like "Stompin' Steve" and say what you want on any frequency you want.

And thus I say again, I'll quote myself,,,

Quote[/b] (KB0UZR @ May 28 2005,18:13)]I was just trying to put the fact out as I see them. #How is it everytime I try to explain the way it is then and now, people think I'm ranting and raving?

Quote[/b] (AI4EP @ May 28 2005,07:48)](gasp)...do you mean to tell all of us that the " dumbing down of amateur radio " #has been going on for years #?

Some folks might not take those words too lightly.

After all, they DID pass the FCC rerquirements for being a GENERAL /ADVANCED/EXTRA #all these years ago.

Is that the message you wish to say to them to their face, or just while hiding behind a keyboard ?

Just remember that in the upper left corner of each & every post that you ( or I ) make, our FCC callsign is there for several reasons....now I am going to get out of the sun, and back under the porch in the shade and I might bark some.

ai4ep

And I say again, I'll quote myself. I reread my post, and all I could read into it was that I was trying to say Why people don't like change.

Quote[/b] (KB0UZR @ May 28 2005,18:13)]I was just trying to put the fact out as I see them. #How is it everytime I try to explain the way it is then and now, people think I'm ranting and raving?


~~~~~~EDIT~~~~~~~

I figured it out, I think I figured it out.

# #Ok folks. #The
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # <span style='color:purple'>purple big
# # # # # # # # <span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'>IF IT'S NOT BROKE, DON'T FIX IT</span></span>
# evidently appeared I was ranting and raving. #Sorry folks, all I was trying to do is just make a statement, just trying to accentuate, not yell. #Pardon me folks,,,
# # # Pardon me!

[ai4ep]

Ham Radio, Worldwide is Crashing Down " --- so let us NOT make the rules any easier, so it wont crash.

Getting a license to be a lawyer aint no easier
Getting a permit to fly a plane aint got no easier

Getting a licence to be a doctor or a nurse aint no easier

So why should AMATEUR RADIO change its rules / requirements ?

[KC0NBW]

one thing i would suggest to the newcomers on the ham bands is listen before you start operating.

the amount of cb talk that is appearing on the hambands is not good.

i stand by, i am not ''on the side''

my name is mike, i have no idea what a ''personal'' is

there is no such word as ''destinated''

i can hear you just fine, but i do not ''got a copy on you''

radios and antennas tranmit and receive, they do not talk

there are too many cb expressions that are making their way into ham radio, what is wrong with just plain english without the childish cornband babble ?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[al2n]

Quote[/b] ]I guess my point would be, it doesn't matter what the test was, it's on-air behaviour that matters.


Bravo! Well said!

In my short life as a ham, I have encountered only a slight few who fit the bill as poor ops. The kind you guys rant about with the swearing, demeaning talk, failure to give callsigns, etc.

The ones I have encountered have all been hams for over 25 years. So much for the test being a good measure of operating skill.

I have said it before and I will say it again.

The prior geneneration of hams has always accused the new guys as being given easier, dumbed down tests.

They have been harsh on the guys who buy their equipment rather than build it like a real ham should.

So lets all toss out the computers, go back to paper logs and do it the way they did back in the 60's. Everyone cancel their internet subscriptions, throw away those solid state rigs, toss out those electronic keyers, digital multimeters, email accounts and any thing else digital.

While we are at it, lets go back to the way real ham radio used to be. Forget the 60's, you all had it easy back then! Real hams used spark gap for crying out loud!

The world has changed. Ham radio needs to change with it. Nostalgia is fine, but a good look at reality is required every now and then as well.

[W3MIV]

Sometimes a single letter means all the difference in the world. Even in the one that's crashing down.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[KG4ZQZ]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ May 28 2005,14:23)]Now that most of Europe and the rest of the civilized world have dropped the code test, I can't imagine FCC not doing something to conform.
- funny that... i don't really consider Europe 'civilized'... i've lived there, and as far as i'm concerned anywhere else in the world compared to the U.S. is Third World...

- just because Europeans do something doesn't mean we have to...

- just my $0.02

- i'd like to see retention of Element 1 at least for the Amateur Extra class license...

- and if CQ wants to have an IRLP award that's their business... i've looked at the magazine and there were some neat articles, but most of the content appears aimed at contesting?

[K0RGR]

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ May 28 2005,19:18)]Ham Radio, Worldwide is Crashing Down " --- so let us NOT make the rules any easier, so it wont crash.

Getting a license to be a lawyer aint no easier
Getting a permit to fly a plane aint got no easier

Getting a licence to be a doctor or a nurse aint no easier

So why should AMATEUR RADIO change its rules / requirements ?
Quote[/b] ]Getting a license to be a lawyer aint no easier

Ann Coulter is living proof that you can get a law degree in a Wheaties box.

Quote[/b] ]Getting a license to be a lawyer aint no easier

Multiple idiots fly into the controlled airspace around the White House every day according to Fox News. Nothing like that would ever have happened when I was flying!

Quote[/b] ]Getting a licence to be a doctor or a nurse aint no easier

I didn't know about that, either. Doctors have become so specialized these days that I suspect the scope of their skills has really atrophied. Of course, just like electronics and ham radio, the whole field has exploded, so it's not possible for one person to know everything in depth. Nurses , on the other hand, have been subjected to all sorts of new learning theory. It makes me cringe.

Quote[/b] ]So why should AMATEUR RADIO change its rules / requirements ?
Because the current situation sucks! Stranding the newcomers on VHF is a bad, bad, bad idea.

It wouldn't break my heart if FCC were to adopt the ARRL proposal but if they reduced the current Techs down to Novice instead of upgrading them to General. Eventuallly, the result would be the same, and I think for the vast majority of techs it would be a 'wash'.

[ai4ep]

I got an e - mail from some one that was listening to 3.919 late last night and some dood came in wanted a " radio check " and thought he could get one since the last 2 numbers were " 19 "...man he got talked TO / AT by every one on the frequency.............said he got the radio last weekend at DAYTON and he was running an antron 99 with a tuner and the rig . Never did give a call, i think he ran off some type of old cb call sign later, but now I think it was one of their friends giving them a hard time, just to be aggravating.

I sent an e - mail back and asked WHERE were most of the station at that were on 3.919, but he aint answered yet....might be worth LISTENING to tonight, or like I said earlier, just some one having FUN with their radio... ?

Or is that illegal, too ? :rock:

[W0LC]

Quote[/b] (n0iu @ May 27 2005,12:35)]The next thing you know dogs will be sleeping with cats!
Huh.
My dog already does that? Should I be concerned? Hi.

[K7RAN]

KB0UZR de K7RAN --

I was a ham 30 years ago, was a writer for Ham Radio Horizons (as WA4FJF), and very active on practically all the bands in almost every mode. And you can count me as someone who believes you're sorely mistaken on several counts. I'd like to comment on several of your statements:

I don't know how long you have been a ham, but I assume it hasn't been 30+ years, so maybe you don't know about what Amateur Radio was really like then and what dumbing down does to the "QUALITY" of the service.
Ok, I don't know about the other guy, but I was there three decades ago. The quality of the service wasn't better. Overall, ops are good now, and they were good then. But, indeed, back in those halcyon days of yore there were "lids" on the air making fake lists (remember working DX from the "list"?), causing terrible interference, cited by the FCC for harassment, cursing on 75 meters, etc. Even worse, in my dad's day back in the late 50s and 60s when SSB was new, quite a number of unhappy AMers who opposed "progress" purposefully attempted to QRM the sideband "monkey-chatterers" off the air. They said sideband would be the end of ham radio because, after all, SWL'ers couldn't hear it without a BFO and so wouldn't then be interested in entering the hobby anymore. The animosity was huge. When the ARRL proposed "incentive licensing" (the stepped privileges accorded Novice, Tech, General, Advance, and Extra -- before the early 1960s General, Advanced, and Extra had identical privileges), all hell broke loose. Some hams literally declared war on the ARRL and contended that incentive licensing would destroy ham radio. It didn't.

And now what we have as a result is, is what you say we are hearing on 40 & 80, all kinds of trash, right?
Wow, you have an active fantasy life. Mostly what you hear on 40 and 80 today is terrific. Some is terrible, but no more than what we heard 30 years ago. You've forgotten the "this is our frequency" wars. Goodness lands.

The testing that there was years ago before it was dumbed down, you couldn't pass and become a ham unless you were serious about actually KNOWING something, and serious about radio. And now, all you have to do is memorize the questions.
Oh my goodness, you do romanticize those days. Were you licensed then? There were LOTS of people who memorized the ARRL License Manual. There were also companies who paid hams to remember just one or two questions from a testing administration and send them in for cash, a process that resulted in some very nifty Q&A books which, yes, begged memorization. They were popular. I'm an Extra Class amateur, but I can't draw the schematic for a Colpitts amplifier (or is that a Colpitts oscillator?). I just studied for the tests pretty much the same way the folks do today. At least today the questions are more relevant to real life operating, and memorizing them may pay real dividends later. In those days we memorized stuff that would never make any sense to mere mortals. As a bonus, then, the testing is far more helpful to active ops today than before. But where in the world you get the silly idea that hams of 30 years ago were all electrical engineers is beyond me. Have you forgotten the terrible invective we heard on the bands between "appliance operators" and "home-brew men"? (If you bought Hallicrafters you were an appliance op, but if you bought Collins you were exempt, haha... Even the rules for the argument were corrupt.)

And those of us that can remember radio 30 & 40 years ago, talking with those boys are a heck of a lot different than talking to a lot of them now. So the reason that people gripe about change is because amateur radio's quality isn't anywhere near as good as it was before all these wonderful "Changes" that you think are so great took place. And the quality of ham radio was MUCH better then.
What? I'm not going to even dignify this unsubstantiated propaganda with a response except to reiterate my concern about your possible psychosis.

And the assinine quality of people that you hear now on the bands wouldn't bother putting forth that much effort and discipline to actually learn something and know something to be able to pass the test like it was back then. Now all you have to do is "Memorize" the answers. So if the testing procedures or anything else stayed the same as it was 30 & 40 years ago until now, the bands would be a lot different to listen to. It would be a lot like when Amateur radio was real Amateur radio with people that KNEW something like 30 & 40 years ago.
Uh, read the earlier paragraph about memorization. Again, when were you first licensed? Your "KB" prefix suggests that you're relatively new (or that you were away for the bulk of those 30 years and have since developed Alzheimer's).

And so, years ago it worked, and radio was good, and now it's not good.
This is your summary statement?

Again, those of us who've been amateurs for decades remember the good, the bad, and the ugly. Even though time sometimes helps us to forget the bad and remember only the good, most of us remember this: There has always been a contingent of hams who opposed change, who predicted the end of the world, and who always unfavorably compared the present with the past. (I remember Cliff Tritschler, W4IO, a very nice guy by the way, who contended that ham radio by 1976 was simply a vast wasteland compared with his heyday in the 1930s. The reason? Because by the 1970s we were MISERABLY failing at attracting young people to the hobby. Sound familiar?) The debates have largely remained the same; only the cast of characters has changed.

Now, all of that said, I'm pro-code and pro-testing. However I also favor the development of an EXCITING new entry-level license that does not require Morse and offers some worldwide HF privileges. Does that mean that I'm someone who will cause the end of ham radio?

73 from Utah,

Randy, K7RAN

[W0LPQ]

Randy, wondered what happened to you..! #Was a subscriber to HR for years until Jim Fisk became a SK..!

Met him and many others in SAROC in '72.

Seems I have heard that same argument before also. #Don Wallace W6AM (SK) had some of the same comments about new ops back then.

Nothing changes. #Your comments were well said.

Thanks..!

73

Bill, W0LPQ

[KD6NIG]

What is ironic is everyone here, me included, is using a non-ham radio method to discuss this.

Now, if everyone is hard-line about this, shouldn't this discussion be moved to a BBS accessible via RF packet or similar?

Ok, well the truth is, change is going to come wether we like it or not. #From what I read on this bb and others-the number of licenced hams is dwindling. #I won't say its because of code, no code, or whatever, I would blame it more on technology personally, but still. (Cell phones, the average teen has no need for anything but one, for example)

There seems to be an ongoing theme around here that no-code technicians are just out to get everything free. #I can assure you this is not the case. #I'm more than happy with the privledges granted to me by my current licence, and when I got it, I understood the next step in the process to upgrade (if I wish to get more privledges) is to learn code. #Now I understand there are plenty of others out there lobbying to get it 'for free' but I think it would be a bit more accurate to not include every single NCT in that equation. #The reason why I haven't upgraded since I got my licence in 92 were a few reasons:

1) Satisfaction. #I mostly at first only used ham radio to converse with other radio operators with the privledges I already had. #That, coupled with packet, was enough for me through the years.
2) Timeframe. #At the time I got licenced, I was graduating from high school. #Then I went to college and worked, then found a job afterwards and worked to establish myself. #With all of this, I fit ham radio in when I could, but mostly when in the car commuting, or on weekends when I was out and about.
3) Difficulty learning the code. #Now that I have more time, I have been trying, but I have a mental block I guess. #But I'm going to keep trying.

My main point is, I can understand having a "problem" with the NCT, but lets not lump us all into the group that just wants a free ride. #I personally don't want the free ride, and I will work myself to gain the privledges everyone else earned. #I don't think if I was handed HF tommorrow I would be on it the same day-just because I'm a NCT doesn't mean I have the cash in hand to instantly upgrade my shack to accomodate a new HF rig either. It took about a month's salary spread out over time to get the equipment needed to utilize my current privledges as it is.....

I've also stated before and I will say again-if they DO decide to give NCT's access, it should be limited, and the code should never go away. #Even if it came down to NCT's getting access to everything but code segments, I think code should remain as an endorsement that can be added to ANY Class of licence, and those who don't have it shouldn't be allowed to use segments of each band, in order to keep it alive and thriving for those who still wish to use it.

Ok, you can all now eat me apart. # You know where to find me, above 50MHZ. #Oh, and by the way, I know a lot of repeaters don't get used and it seems like 2m/packet is dying, but its pretty alive in my area, I can find a QSO almost every morning/afternoon on the local machine, and packet is still alive around here, enough so that I upgraded my packet system so I can converse/digipeat for my area more.....

Let the stomping of my toes begin http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

73's to all, on either side of the argument-I have nothing against either side http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Joshua, KD6NIG (since 1992)
(Still trying to crack the code, with a little help from the internet, and windows.)

Edit: Fixed some typos. I guess I type as well as I do morse at the moment.

[K0RGR]

The ironic part of this is that the NCT's are the ones who are taking the heat for these proposals - all the name calling, etc., but the ones really pushing this stuff are mostly 40-year Extras like me! Unlike those who fanasize about the past, I do remember how busy all the HF bands were in the 60's, 70's, and 80's, and I see how quiet they are now. Those days will probably never return, but I certainly don't want the bands to get any quieter than they are now. That's also why I don't favor doing away with the Morse requirement entirely - keeping it around for Extra is a good thing.

I see that Japan has done something similar, today. They have had a no-code 4th class license that allows 10 watts on all HF bands except 20 and 17 meters for decades. Now, they have dropped the code test for their 3rd class license, which allows 50 watts on all but 20 meters. Their 2nd and 1st class licenses, which permit higher power, require a 5 WPM test. So, I imagine the JA's will be about an S unit louder in the next DX contest.

There's also a nagging guilt that although I have explained to the newbies I recruit all about the limitations of VHF, they don't really understand it, and that in a way, I'm conducting a 'bait and switch'. They expect to get into an exciting new hobby, and end up getting the privelege of talking to me on the way to work every morning. Wow! 23 skidoo! Now that International law does not confine them to line of sight perdition, I don't see the need to do so either.

I think I'd vote for the Japanese license structure too, but I doubt that our Generals would like being stuck at 50 watts, even if they got all those Extra and Advanced frequencies.

[KD7WHQ]

I could live with 10W on bands below 50 MHz, seriously. Challenge! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
50W would admittedly be better.

Not looking for a handout..

As to VHF, did you point out that you can play pool with your signal and a directional antenna? Adds a lot of fun to the game, when you bounce off a building/mountain and go farther than you ever thought you would.

175 miles in mountainous territory at 280' elevation with the antenna 20' up so far for distance on 2m. That's to this point.

ISS doesn't count, but I have yet to hear them operating voice..

There are plenty of exciting aspects above 6m. And, if 6m opens, well..

It isn't (excepting 6m when open) going to be working the world, but there is plenty there to explore..

[W0UZR]

Well, To Good ol LPQ and randy.

# # And Yes I forgot about the "Frequency Wars." #
# #
Quote[/b] (K7RAN @ May 30 2005,09:22)] read the earlier paragraph about memorization. Again, when were you first licensed? Your "KB" prefix suggests that you're relatively new (or that you were away for the bulk of those 30 years and have since developed Alzheimer's).

I was first licensed in 74. Got inactive in the early 80's and let the license expire. So it was a while after the introduction of SSB. # I missed out on that controversy.

And about Alzheimer's,,,

PERSONAL ATTACKS are against the QRZ rules. # So since you seem to be looking for a fight, #I'm not going #to lower myself to your standards by commenting further!

[kc7flr]

Quote[/b] (KD6NIG @ May 30 2005,10:00)]What is ironic is everyone here, me included, is using a non-ham radio method to discuss this.

You mean we can't use anything not involving RF? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Quote[/b] ]
Now, if everyone is hard-line about this, shouldn't this discussion be moved to a BBS accessible via RF packet or similar?

I don't have a packet station up yet. I have moved, changed radios and antennas and need to get my ol' MFJ 1278 hooked up to the new IC-208H. This radio has a data port.

Quote[/b] ]
Ok, well the truth is, change is going to come wether we like it or not. From what I read on this bb and others-the number of licenced hams is dwindling. I won't say its because of code, no code, or whatever, I would blame it more on technology personally, but still. (Cell phones, the average teen has no need for anything but one, for example)

Actually, the number of licensed hams is at an all time high. That is... the total number... somewhere over 700,000.

The pre capita number is down, but then it has steadily gone down since overall population has increased faster than the number of hams.

Quote[/b] ]
There seems to be an ongoing theme around here that no-code technicians are just out to get everything free. I can assure you this is not the case. I'm more than happy with the privledges granted to me by my current licence, and when I got it, I understood the next step in the process to upgrade (if I wish to get more privledges) is to learn code. Now I understand there are plenty of others out there lobbying to get it 'for free' but I think it would be a bit more accurate to not include every single NCT in that equation. The reason why I haven't upgraded since I got my licence in 92 were a few reasons:

Most hams who have started out as Techs have gone on to upgrade to General, Advanced, and Extra. All claims that the Tech class has been the fastest growing class are ignoring that fact.

Quote[/b] ]
1) Satisfaction. I mostly at first only used ham radio to converse with other radio operators with the privledges I already had. That, coupled with packet, was enough for me through the years.

I just recently upgraded to General. When I first got my license in 1994, I attempted to upgrade but got caught up on CW. I learned it fine, I just had trouble passing the test because of the ambient noise level at the testing places I went to. I then got involved with other things and only used 2 meters to keep in touch with my friends.

I now am in the process of putting a decent shack together. I have the radios, but only have a 5 band verticle up for now.

Quote[/b] ]
2) Timeframe. At the time I got licenced, I was graduating from high school. Then I went to college and worked, then found a job afterwards and worked to establish myself. With all of this, I fit ham radio in when I could, but mostly when in the car commuting, or on weekends when I was out and about.

Many hams have time limitations. Priorities change and life interferes. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Quote[/b] ]
3) Difficulty learning the code. Now that I have more time, I have been trying, but I have a mental block I guess. But I'm going to keep trying.

Everyone has difficulty with learning CW at first. The secret is to not get frustrated and quit. Just keep trying. I got Ham University and Code Quick to help me. They really work.

Quote[/b] ]
My main point is, I can understand having a "problem" with the NCT, but lets not lump us all into the group that just wants a free ride. I personally don't want the free ride, and I will work myself to gain the privledges everyone else earned. I don't think if I was handed HF tommorrow I would be on it the same day-just because I'm a NCT doesn't mean I have the cash in hand to instantly upgrade my shack to accomodate a new HF rig either. It took about a month's salary spread out over time to get the equipment needed to utilize my current privledges as it is.....

No matter what tests that you will have to take, you will have earned the right to call yourself a ham operator with whatever class license you receive. Don't let what some people say dicourage you. No matter if you are a "lowly NCT" (hi hi) or an Extra class with 90 years of experience, you are still a ham operator.

Quote[/b] ]
I've also stated before and I will say again-if they DO decide to give NCT's access, it should be limited, and the code should never go away. Even if it came down to NCT's getting access to everything but code segments, I think code should remain as an endorsement that can be added to ANY Class of licence, and those who don't have it shouldn't be allowed to use segments of each band, in order to keep it alive and thriving for those who still wish to use it.

The FCC will do what they find most financially expedient. We should all be happy with the spectrum we enjoy. It does us no good to moan and fuss and argue about who has it easier or who is or isn't a "real ham."

We should come together and help preserve and promote the hobby so the numbers won't dwindle to the point that the FCC sees us as more of a hinderance than a viable service.

Quote[/b] ]
Ok, you can all now eat me apart. You know where to find me, above 50MHZ. Oh, and by the way, I know a lot of repeaters don't get used and it seems like 2m/packet is dying, but its pretty alive in my area, I can find a QSO almost every morning/afternoon on the local machine, and packet is still alive around here, enough so that I upgraded my packet system so I can converse/digipeat for my area more.....

Let the stomping of my toes begin http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

73's to all, on either side of the argument-I have nothing against either side http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Joshua, KD6NIG (since 1992)
(Still trying to crack the code, with a little help from the internet, and windows.)

Edit: Fixed some typos. I guess I type as well as I do morse at the moment.

Heh heh... My fingers sometimes type what they want regardless of what my brain is thinking. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

73

Ed

[K7RAN]

KB0UZR, I was employing sarcasm rather than a personal attack; however if I inadvertently mentioned your actual disorder then I certainly apologize. That said, if you're just crying "personal attack!" rather than engaging the substance of the matter with me, then you should probably go about the business of saving amateur radio within less stressful environs.

Randy, K7RAN

[W0UZR]

Oh, OK.
I've gotten in trouble with sarcasm before, and I'm man enough to take that.
You forgot the deal here. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Now to comment.
There are a few here that think that 40 & 80 meters are Horrible. I don't think they are. 80 is something to be desired though. But THEY think it is. they must be hearing people in their neck of the woods that I'm not. But that's neither here or there. The reason I said that is because if they notice the quality of the operators out there that I can't hear are awful, then I would contribute that to the test requirements being dumbed down.

And you mean to tell me there were answers to memorize back then? I don't remember that. I had to study out of the book and hope like heck I "Learned" enough to pass it at the FCC office in Minneapolis. So I didn't see the answers in the back, I was too busy reading in the middle so I could get it in my head.

Quote[/b] (K7RAN @ May 30 2005,10:22)]
Quote[/b] (KB0UZR @ May 28 2005,1829)]
I don't know how long you have been a ham, but I assume it hasn't been 30+ years, so maybe you don't know about what Amateur Radio was really like then and what dumbing down does to the "QUALITY" of the service.Ok, I don't know about the other guy, but I was there three decades ago. The quality of the service wasn't better. Overall, ops are good now, and they were good then. But, indeed, back in those halcyon days of yore there were "lids" on the air making fake lists (remember working DX from the "list"?), causing terrible interference, cited by the FCC for harassment, cursing on 75 meters,
There were Always hooligans interfering on all the bands. You say that the quality wasn't better then than now.
I sure can see a difference.

I have to get going and will comment on the rest of your stuff later.

[W0LPQ]

Steve, UZR: Attack, say what...! No where in my post did I mention you or your call sign. I was in general, agreeing with what Randy had stated regaqrding past issues with amateur radio in general.

So, as far as personal attacks, I am afraid not.

Josh, NIG: Keep cracking the code, you'll get it....! And when you do, many light bulbs will come on..!

Have fun..

Bill, W0LPQ

[W3MIV]

K7RAN:

Thanks for the breath of fresh air, Randy.

I've said it, and posted it, time and again: the biggest fish bone in the craw from most of these guys is the change -- nothing more than that. "If it's "different" it's gonna be bad." And, of course, for many: "If it's from the ARRL, it's got to be bad."

If anything kills amateur radio, it will be reaction -- not change.

[W0UZR]

Quote[/b] (W0LPQ @ May 31 2005,12:50)]Steve, UZR: Attack, say what...! #No where in my post did I mention you or your call sign. #I was in general, agreeing with what Randy had stated regaqrding past issues with amateur radio in general. #

So, as far as personal attacks, I am afraid not.

Josh, NIG: #Keep cracking the code, you'll get it....! #And when you do, many light bulbs will come on..!

Have fun..

Bill, W0LPQ
Ops, Ok
It looked like you were patting him on the back on his response to me. Didn't know, sorry.

[k5jyd]

It was only a matter of time .After I read that articel I cancelled my subscription.Its odd to me that someone can sit at a computer and earn this so called was award and not have so much as a pl259 in the house, much less any ham gear.Its sad .

w5wlb
ootc

[WA7KKP]

No, it isn't the ARRL and their antiquated views of ham radio. Remember they ignored the FM boom for years -- and now it is the mainstay of the Tech licencee.

The push behind deregulation is the EIA and EIAJ, whose members want to turn ham radio into the multi-million user hobby like CB and cash in on selling us all NEW hamgear.

The fear of no-code was "letting all those CB types in", and it never happened. Yes, the CBers did wander over, but only the ones who decided that learning the code and theory wasn't an impossible hurdle. And we still haven't broken the one million mark, and probably won't for years.

As I've told the Boy Scouts in a ham radio badge seminar -- CW and Morse Code still remain as the easiest way to impart intellegence on RF -- and not many DX stations are fluent enough in English to do a voice QSO. They can handle the code just enough to get the basic infoormation (QTH, signal report, handle).

The hobby itself is fine -- it is those in it trying to make a quick buck that bother me.

Gary WA7KKP