The use of UTC Time in Logging

[W0LC]

I have countless amateurs that QSL me from time to time only to have the incorrect (UTC) date on the QSL because they don't understand the proper use of UTC time and the date associated with it.

From what I have been taught, when you reach 0000 UTC, it is now the next day on the calendar, even though you are still within the current date (physically).

Perhaps I am wrong, but that is how I was taught UTC time and date.

Anyone else have this problem?

[WA5KRP]

Quote[/b] (W0LC @ May 25 2005,07:15)]From what I have been taught, when you reach 0000 UTC, it is now the next day on the calendar, even though you are still within the current date (physically).

Perhaps I am wrong, but that is how I was taught UTC time and date.
You're not wrong. It's a very common screw-up that's been around since the inception of Zulu Time.




WA5KRP
Texas

[n5tjd]

You are correct. However, I've never gotten a QSL with the wrong date info. Of course, I only have 113. I've have more problems getting QSL cards from people not on my log, or getting cards with a "typo" in one of the information spots.

[WB2WIK]

You're correct. The new date starts at 00:00:01 UTC.

When stations log/QSL it wrongly, I think it's more likely they're just being careless, and not that they don't understand how a clock works.

Another good reason for computer logging.

WB2WIK/6

[K9STH]

Except for the fact that my $19.95 24 hour mfj clock keeps MUCH more accurate time than my computer! In fact, I have a little $2.95 clock that keeps MUCH better time than my computer!

The computer on the main operating console does not have a cable Internet connection like the one in the office so I cannot update the clock automatically. Basically, a $2.95 clock is a MUCH better "keeper of time" than just about any expensive computer.

Glen, K9STH

[W0LC]

Yeah, I should get into the 21st Century and computer log. I suppose I always have this fear of losing data where paper logs have yet to fail me.

It just makes it hard to locate a QSO when you have pages and pages and pages of the same date (contest) and you have to hunt for the guy.

That is something I wish they would have on the written exams. Not sure if they do. They didn't when I was first licensed.

Would be a good practical question to provide.

[KC7UP]

I have run into this date/time problem many times. I have spent much time trying to locate the qso when I used paper logs. Now however you have the call on your computer-hopefully the hour will be right and you can correct the qsl'er.
Curt

[ae5rc]

I use an MFJ World Clock, set to UTC. The date changes as the time changes. #No daylight savings time, either. When the battery runs down, I then set it locally (less the added hour for d.s.t.) then run it to UTC and I'm "on time" again. Nice station accessory.

73

[al7n]

Part of the problem could be not keeping the date-time group as a whole "date-time group" That is, folks use UTC, but only record the HHMM and neglect to include the rest of it.

If you log the date-time group as "DDHHMM" in UTC it is easier to keep track of when the date changes. 252359 goes to 260000
etc.

I keep my (paper) logbook by "Radioday".
If I were to log a contact right now, I'd write 252042Z for the time.

[n0iu]

One of the most recent additions to my shack came from Wal-Mart, but they are popping up all over the place, is one of those 'atomic' clocks that cost me a whopping $30. There is really nothing atomic about the clock at all, expect that it receives the time signals from WWV. Just make sure you get one you can set to a 24 hour format and ignore daylight savings. These clocks never have to be set once they acquire the signal and are or course dead-on accurate.

Good luck!
NØIU

[N8CPA]

Now hear this! Due to concerns that the term Greenwich Mean Time might frighten children and other sensitive souls in our poliltically corrected age, GMT will henceforth be called GNT--Greenwich Nice Time. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[kb2vxa]

Hi STH and all,

"Except for the fact that my $19.95 24 hour mfj clock keeps MUCH more accurate time than my computer! In fact, I have a little $2.95 clock that keeps MUCH better time than my computer!"

NisTime

"The computer on the main operating console does not have a cable Internet connection like the one in the office so I cannot update the clock automatically."

NisTime

I use it with my dial-up, can correct as frequently as once per hour but once every week or so corrects mine by a second or less. The computer is on GMT and all programs that use the clock are set up accordingly.

[K9STH]

Doesn't matter how often I set the time on the Compaq computer out in the shack, the time doesn't keep very well.

I have found during a contest using GenLog that the computer internal clock can gain at least 10 minutes in a 6 to 8 hour period, sometimes even more.

I set the clock a couple of days ago and I just went out to set it for the WPX CW contest that starts in a few minutes. It was 17 minutes fast!

I don't even have the telephone line connected to that computer since I don't use the Internet from it nor send any FAXs. Besides, the internal clocks on PCs are notorious for keeping lousey time! You would think that Intel and the other CPU manufacturers could come up with something that could keep the correct time without haveing to constantly update through an Internet connection, etc.

Like I said, a $2.95 clock keeps more accurate time than a $1000 computer.

Glen, K9STH

[kc5bie]

Depending upon your computer and its operating system, sometimes clock "problems" can be due to a failing motherboard battery. Often, replacing the battery will bring back the accuracy. Other times, the problem is traced to programs wishing to run in real-time with interrupts disabled (not so much a problem anymore).

As was mentioned, most newer computers running the lastest OS's will automatically sync with various internet time servers thus keeping your computer's clock correct to within a few hundred milliseconds (typically 200-300 mS). By default, my Windows XP and 2000 systems sync once every 7 days or so, but can be told to sync more frequently. For older OS's, there are a number of sync'ing programs that will do the same thing; nistime is one.

Fixing the battery and eliminating non-critical programs from the computer are the best bet for systems without internet access.

[K9STH]

The battery is fine and I don't really have any programs operating in the "background" on that particular computer. All that I mainly use it for is logging during contests, the 2005 ARRL Handbook, and the ON4UN Handbook. None of which is active until I turn them on.

Sometimes I don't even turn it on for several days. However, it still gains "clock time". I really don't worry about it. When it is time for a contest to start I set the time. Then, occasionally during the contest I look over at my mfj 24 hour clock and if the computer is significantly different I reset the time. It is a minor "pain in the posterior", but since keeping "dupes" by hand got really "old", several months ago I moved the "next back" computer out to the main shack. It has a 450 Meg processor, 768 M of RAM, and two hard drives totaling over 100 gig. It was my "main" computer until about 1.5 years ago when I went to a 2.4 GHz CPU, 512 M of RAM, 80 gig hard drive of which I have over 60 gigs left.

The computer in my home office / AM shack has a cable Internet connection so the time gets updated often. However, I definitely have a firewall, a good virus package, and run SpyBot and Adaware almost every evening before I shut down the computer. Run the virus program every couple of days even though it does an excellent job of keeping out viruses.

Glen, K9STH

[WA2ZDY]

Quote[/b] (W0LC @ May 25 2005,14:14)]It just makes it hard to locate a QSO when you have pages and pages and pages of the same date (contest) and you have to hunt for the guy.

That is something I wish they would have on the written exams. #Not sure if they do. #They didn't when I was first licensed.

Would be a good practical question to provide.
I agree with you on such a question being on the exams. I can't remember if it was years ago, but . . .

As for making it difficult to QSL, yes it is. Answer? Don't. If the guy can't figure out how to do it right, he doesn't get a card. Why should you do all the work? Trust me, the DX and DXpeditions don't.

Keep in mind that the card with incorrect info is useless to you as well. You can't submit it for anything. And you surely can't change the info on it. So just toss it, save yourself the work and postage and save it for someone who cares enough to do it right.

Cruel, unkind, realistic. It's just the way it is. Those who do it correctly deserve the return, those who don't, well, they don't.

[kj5t]

I have had the wrong date/time on one card I received, I corrected it on the return, and the station sent me a new card. The biggest problem I have is people putting my call down as WD5OWO even though they get it right on the air they write it down wrong.

[W0LC]

Quote[/b] (KD5OWO @ May 28 2005,07:47)]I have had the wrong date/time on one card I received, I corrected it on the return, and the station sent me a new card. #The biggest problem I have is people putting my call down as WD5OWO even though they get it right on the air they write it down wrong.
It frequently reminds me of the guys that run 1KW plus to be the "first" to work the DX. "You're 5-9 OM, what's your call again?"

Only to be followed by, "what country are you in (FT5X)"...hi hi hi....

[W0LC]

Quote[/b] (K9STH @ May 27 2005,16:41)]Doesn't matter how often I set the time on the Compaq computer out in the shack, the time doesn't keep very well.

I have found during a contest using GenLog that the computer internal clock can gain at least 10 minutes in a 6 to 8 hour period, sometimes even more.

I set the clock a couple of days ago and I just went out to set it for the WPX CW contest that starts in a few minutes. #It was 17 minutes fast!

I don't even have the telephone line connected to that computer since I don't use the Internet from it nor send any FAXs. #Besides, the internal clocks on PCs are notorious for keeping lousey time! #You would think that Intel and the other CPU manufacturers could come up with something that could keep the correct time without haveing to constantly update through an Internet connection, etc.

Like I said, a $2.95 clock keeps more accurate time than a $1000 computer.

Glen, K9STH
I need to get me a battery operated clock. As frequent as we lose power where I live (sunny, cloudy, rainy days), i need something to maintain a constant time source!

[K9STH]

Chris:

Since deregulation TXU has gone from a very good preventitive maintenance program to a "fix it when it breaks" program. They have gotten rid of a lot of the linemen, servicemen, etc. Now they primarily come out when the power goes out, not before like in the "goode olde dayes".

This started in the mid 1990s when I was still employed by TXU. They got rid of the Telecommunications Department, then the IT Department, then most of the people in Energy Plaza. I really think that the company will not be "happy" until everything is "farmed out" and the entire staff consists of Erle Nye (CEO of TXU) and his "administrative assistant" (fancy word for secretary).

Glen, K9STH

[al2i]

I find it interesting that some people have trouble with UTC logging. I keep all of my QSO paperwork for months at a time before formally entering it into a log. If I forget to write the Date into a QSO copy, I might not know the year!!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[K9STH]

Just a few minutes after I posted the pevious message TXU went down for 4 hours and 17 minutes!

Now, with no power at all applied, my computer out in the shack kept perfect time! But, when the power comes back on, and the computer is still turned off, it gains time.

Glen, K9STH

[KD7WHQ]

Sounds like the CMOS battery is starting to run out there, Glen.
Odd bit about quartz clocks, they run faster when the battery runs down.

As to the rest, www.worldtimeserver.com (http://www.worldtimeserver.com) . Download the atomic clock sync program, and you will be within a half second.

You can set it up to load (and execute) with windows, or just manually launch it.

And, it's FREE! Love that word http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I use it to set every clock in the house and my watch. Not directly, but you know what I mean. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[K9STH]

The computer has gained time ever since it was new. I have tried a new battery but the clock still gains time. When the computer is without power (i.e. running from the battery) it keeps perfect time. It is when there is power applied that the clock gains time.

Unfortunately, there is no telephone line or cable connection to the computer. Therefore I can no longer sync it to WWV, etc. When it was my "main" computer I did activate a program that would sync the time whenever it was turned on and at certain times after being turned on. It did that through the cable Internet connection although I had one of my telephone lines connected so that I could send a FAX once-in-a-while.

I just "live" with the clock problem. In fact, I don't even look at the clock on the computer unless I am using it for logging during a contest. Otherwise I use a paper log and copy the time from my mfj 24 hour clock.

Glen, K9STH

[ai4ep]

For a while, every time I would sychronise all the closks in the house that run off AC, the power would go off within 1 day...so I quit...and now the power never flickers at all.....kinda strange !!

[K9STH]

Even before TXU eliminated the Telecommunications Department (me and 151 others) in 1999 they had cut back dramatically on maintenance. They had a "buy out" in 1993 hoping to eliminate a lot of "dead wood". Unfortunately, many more of those who were "worth their salt" took the buy out (my then "boss" said that he would have to let over 1/2 million dollars go if he didn't take the buy out so he left) and those that were "marginal" stayed on. I was a "contractor" at the time but was hired directly shortly after the buy out.

Many of those experienced linemen went to work for the contractors that TXU was using more and more for new installations, repair, etc., and making considerably more money from the contractor. This was after a very favorable buy out from TXU which inlcuded keeping their retirement benefits. Then, after a few years TXU even cut back on the contractors.

As such, their lines are not in the best of shape. They did finally pay tree trimming contractors to trim the trees along the distribution lines because there was way too much being spent on outages because of tree problems. TXU had discontinued tree trimming for several years even though in years past the trees were trimmed at least every 3 years over the entire system. It was just that the expense of tree trimming could no longer be directly charged to the ratepayer through the regulated costs of electricity.

When electricity was deregulated the cost to the homeowner was supposed to go down. However, commercial accounts had been subsidizing the homeowner. When the generation and transmission facilities were deregulated and electric companies were allowed to "make deals" with large users, the prices to the large users went down but the prices to the homeowner have gone up.

The result is that costs that were passed on to the entire base of customers are now being, at least in part, borne by the electric company and are not being automatically allowed as rate increases since the company was "guaranteed" a certain percentage return on all allowable expenses. It was to their advantage to spend as much money as possible because the more that they spent in certain expense areas the more that they got in profit.

Anyway, we used to go years between outages and now we have several a year, especially during the warmer months.

Glen, K9STH

[N8CPA]

You can go to the NIST website and download a program to set your computer to UTC. I do that every few days, when I notice it is showing later than my Zeit Atomic clock. The computer gains, maybe, 10 seconds per diem.

My station computer (Win95), on the other hand, gains minutes per day. Before using it for logging, I reset the time to UTC. Since it isn't connected to a phone line, I tune a radio to WWV. Then I use the time command in the Dos mask. I enter the next full minute, and wait for the tone on the radio before hitting Enter.

[K9STH]

CPA:

That is what I do except that my 24 hour mfj clock keeps "perfect" time (well, as close as I can tell when listening to WWV). I just wait until the next minute turns over and then hit "enter" on the computer. It is well within one second of the "real" time. That is "close enough" for contest logging.

And I wonder what it is in the internal clock on a computer that generally results in an increase in time rather than a decrease.

Glen, K9STH