Made in China

[k9kxq]

I remember as a kid my Mom and Dad saying "made in Japan, it's junk" seems to hold true about the imports we receive from China.

I purchased a claw hammer from Lowes, I used it one time to construct the form for my tower base, afterward left it in the tool box for futher use.

Mind you this hammer had a sticker on it that read "Original American Hickory" the cost was just under $20.00.

Steve wdØct was visiting me, we decided to erect a loop, I grab the hammer for use, go to pull one nail and the handle breaks at the base of the "original hickory handle" ct says made in China? and we both looked at eah other and said "what junk".

Now my wife works at Walmart and shops there too, she picked up some cheap lighters, these things will put a big blister on your thumb, and if you strike them hard the flint jumps out at you.

Tell you the truth we are being ripped off by the Chinese, they are getting rich selling the US a bunch of junk that breaks and is the poorest of quality.

I'm all for turning those big crates of junk back to China...Lets have some good old American products like we use to have when you got what you paid for..

kxq

[KG4ZQZ]

- take the items back on your next trip and get your money back... if this happens enough, perhaps the merchandisers will get clued in?

:-(

[k6pme]

Quote[/b] (k9kxq @ May 08 2005,11:17)]Walmart
Folks want dollar value, not quality.

[k9kxq]

Quote[/b] (KG6QQL @ May 08 2005,13:38)]Quote[/b] (k9kxq @ May 08 2005,11:17)]Walmart
Folks want dollar value, not quality.
Strangely enough, this holds true. The price of good American products, or the price of Chinese imports, most will take the less expensive.

Look around your home and see how many items are made in China, same as in the late 50's and 60's we were flooded by products from Japan.

I remeber some of the toys my Mom and Dad gave to me that were made in Japan, they didn't hold up.

How about work shoes, I purchased a pair of Wolverines, #remeber they were made somewhere in Michigan and a good quality boot, not anymore they have a label on the iside of the tounge "Made in China" imagine that...

Lets give them 40 or 50 years, then just maybe the products will be of more quality...

kxq

[w5klb]

Quote[/b] (k9kxq @ May 08 2005,11:17)]Tell you the truth we are being ripped off by the Chinese, they are getting rich...
I suspect that are some Central Committe members enjoying the fruits of Captialism, but it darn sure isn't the average worker in China.

[KF0RT]

We need to be a little careful here... Much of Chinese "capitalism" is our own doing. It would have happened anyway, but we helped it along. In the name of beating the competition, companies started outsourcing labor to where it was cheaper. China was, and still is, a ripe market for cheap labor. Once one company did this, any competition in the same market had to follow or they would no longer be competitive.

The quality of goods from the Far East is much better today than it was in the 60's when "Made in Japan" was a joke (look at them now! Honda, Sony, Matsu####a, etc., are all global powerhouses that rival anything in the U.S.). China's next, and they're willing to work HARD for what we take for granted.

Only two things in this world count: real estate and labor. Why? Because everything we have comes from a combination of the two. China has lots of both. The only thing holding China back today is the "old guard" culture, but that won't last long -- it's cracking already. Kids there want blue jeans, MP3 players and MTV. What you are about to witness is the largest socioeconomic change the world has ever seen. It won't take more than one more generation, but the only thing that will sustain it is if they become world-class consumers like the U.S. I believe they're up to the task.

73, Rob

[wa9cwx]

I have a long story about Chinese Products.
I will not tell it. My BP is already up there thinking about it.
I will say that if you intend to put up a tower, buy American made, hardened turnbuckles.
You CAN NOT...even here in FARM country...easily buy these. They will cost you more, but are WORTH it.

As for everything ELSE from China. I will not knowingly buy ANYTHING from there, if it is available by anyone else. I do NOT shop at Wallmart for that very same reason.

[N6WK]

I am old enough to remember the "Made In Japan" Transistor radio.
circa 1959 or so.
What a piece of crap. I also remember a place in Japan named usa that used to stamp made in USA on their Products. I recall the US government put a stop to that in either the late 50's or early 60's. Anyone else remember that deal??
Gordon
N6WK

[KF0RT]

Quote[/b] (N6WK @ May 08 2005,17:02)]I am old enough to remember the "Made In Japan" Transistor radio.
circa 1959 or so.
What a piece of crap. I also remember a place in Japan named usa that used to stamp made in USA on their Products. I recall the US government put a stop to that in either the late 50's or early 60's. Anyone else remember that deal??
I remember the USA, Japan thing. Seems like that might have been the early-mid 60's.

Try buying a "transistor radio" made anywhere but the Far East today.

You know this HDTV thing that OUR government is mandating? Guess where they're ALL made? And by companies most of us have never heard of, then rebranded to companies we HAVE heard of.

73, Rob

[k6pme]

Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ May 08 2005,16:21)]You know this HDTV thing that OUR government is mandating? #
ahh.......huh? mandating HDTV?

[KW4MW]

Well I try to 'Buy American', I really do. #

I bought a Dodge pickup truck years ago. #I didn't notice it at the time but later, when I I opened the hood to service the engine I noticed Mitsubushi stamped on the engine.

The first VCR I bought was sold by RCA, when I went to hook up the cables in the back it said it was made by Hitachi.

So I try to be careful and check the manufacturing source but that doesn't always work, having an American manufacturer name on a product doesn't mean that it was made here. #

I used to work for a company that made aerospace products. #The owner was an American entrepeneur and all components were purchased from US vendors when ever possible and the units were assembled in stateside plants. #

He sold the company to Generous Dyslexic. #

Now all technical support has been outsourced to India, which resulted in a decimation of the US marketing and support group. #

Components are purchased from the cheapest vendor, regardless of country of origin, shipped overseas to some third world company for assembly and then shipped back to the US for sale. #

Local assemblers were laid off or dismissed.

The initial result is of course a better bottom line for the company. #

The long term effects - who is going to afford using their products, directly or indirectly? (edit: since they won't be working for a paycheck!)

The CEO's won't care though, they'll be long gone, lounging on some remote Carribean island with some overdeveloped bimbos.

[W2ILP]

It is true that prior to WW II most things made in Japan were junk. This changed when the Japanese wanted to improve their reputation. The Japanes goverrnment inspected all cameras made in Japan to see that they were meeting specs. Then the Japanese began to make radios, VCRs, TV sets, watches, and cars that were of high enough quality to compete with items of similar quality and remain cheaper than the competition. The US manufacterers did not care if anything was made in Japan. In some cases they put their own brand names on stuff made there.

Now it is true that there is a lot of inexpensive junk being imported from China now...however a lot of top of the line quality stuff is also being made in China...some with American or Japanese brand names on the outside of the package. Some of that good cheap stuff from China has been installed in products that are believed to be made elsewhere.. I bet that most PCs have boards, hard drives, power supplies, etc. that were manufactured in China. If they did not have Chinese parts, I doubt if they could be sold retail for the present competitive world market at the prices that now exist.
Del printers for example are made in China. I won't mention other brands. Components of Ham Radio gear made in Japan are actually manufactured in China, because there is no room left in Japan to make them.

So what is my point? If an item like a hammer is sold at a low price...Don't believe it is as good as a more expensive hammer.
However you can't be sure just by knowing where an item is made if it is of good quality or value for the price you pay.
You can't even believe any labels.
If I find that a particular item is junk in a certain store I am skeptical about buying anything in that store in the future.
Retail business should be responsible for keeping some level of quality in what they sell. Large chains hire buyers who know what the stores are getting. If you can't test a product before you buy don't buy from a source that doesn't test it or have a policy of retaining a decent quality level.

Enuf sed.

w2ilp (Inspecting Lousey Products?)

[KG4CGC]

PBS did an interesting piece on Wal-Mart last Sunday. Anyone see it?

[WA5KRP]

There are standards that one can use to judge quality. Many enjoy international recognition. If you are SERIOUS about the strength, durability, reliability, consistency, etc........look in a Grainger Catalog. You will find excellent quality "stuff" is out there. You simply must be willing to pay for it. (Pay for it! Trust me on this.)

Alphabet soup with meaning:

SAE Society of Automotive Engineers
UL Underwriters Laboratories
NEMA National Electrical Manufacturers Association
NPCA National Paints and Coating Association
IP Institute of Petroleum
ANSI American National Standards Institute
API American Petroleum Institute
CFR Code of Federal Regulations
EIA Electronic industries Association
IEEE Institute of Electical and Electronics Engineers
ISO International Organization for Standardization


Merely a sample list of recognized standards. There's many more. Buy stuff that meets these standards. Your purchases will be far less disappointing.




WA5KRP
Ansi, Texas

[KD7ZRT]

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ May 08 2005,21:25)]Now it is true that there is a lot of inexpensive junk being imported from China now...however a lot of top of the line quality stuff is also being made in China...some with American or Japanese brand names on the outside of the package. #Some of that good cheap stuff from China has been installed in products that are believed to be made elsewhere.. #I bet that most PCs have boards, hard drives, power supplies, etc. that were manufactured in China. #If they did not have Chinese parts, I doubt if they could be sold retail for the present competitive world market at the prices that now exist.
Dell printers for example are made in China. #I won't mention other brands.
I was going to mention this as well... China is entirely capable of producing quality products. Both my Apple iPod and IBM ThinkPad were not only manufactured in China, but were drop shipped from there as well.

The difference between China and other labor markets though seems to be that its profitable to make junk. Making a poor quality hammer here in the States wouldn't make sense--the materials for a quality hammer would only increase the total cost very slightly. But in China, I'd imagine the difference would be significant.

It'll be interesting to see if China's engineering catches up with their manufacturing. Right now, the quality Chinese products are mostly made to the specifications and under the watchful eye of US corporations. Where will we fit in when they start designing their own products?

[XV2PS]

People get what they pay for. If people do not want to pay american products or good quality imports, that is their problem. There is a demand if there is a supply.

[KG4ZQZ]

Quote[/b] (KG6QQL @ May 08 2005,20:29)]Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ May 08 2005,16:21)]You know this HDTV thing that OUR government is mandating?
ahh.......huh? mandating HDTV?
- yep... IIRC, analog TV signals are set to disappear in what, two, three years? gonna be lots of folks turning on the 'ol TV set and getting static unless there's a digital receiver attached!

[K8ERV]

Quote[/b] (KW4MW @ May 08 2005,18:17)]The CEO's won't care though, they'll be long gone, lounging on some remote Carribean island with some overdeveloped bimbos.
Sounds great!! How do I get to be one of them CEO's ??

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

[K8ERV]

The thing about China that scares me the most is that they CAN make some very good stuff.

I picked up a folding knife at a yard sale that is the highest quality I have ever seen. Made in China.

My new Casio Z55 camera is unvelievable, guess what?

If they just made junk I would not be so concerned.

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

[XV2PS]

Yaesu made in China

[n0ov]

So will be IBM Lap Tops now that IBM has sold their laptop division to a company in China

[K8YS]

I have a lot to say on this subject, but I will try to limit myself;

The Chinese, like the Japanese of old, are excelant at copying products, ask Chrysler about the Jeep project.
The Chinese had a contract to build Cherokees, fulfulled the contract but forgot to tell Chrysler about the "extra" Jeeps that left the factory out the other door.

Did you know, the Jeep Cherokee costs about USD$50,000 - that is about 414,200RMB or just under 400,000HK, and I saw a lot of Jeeps on the road, as well as Mercedees and Mitsubishi jeep like SUV's.

The Chinese can produce cheap products because there are few limits on environmental issues.

And, perhaps the most important reason why the Chinese can produce...

The commom worker is willing to work for the "American Dream" instead of demand it.

[kl7aj]

Quote[/b] (k9kxq @ May 08 2005,12:30)]Quote[/b] (KG6QQL @ May 08 2005,13:38)]Quote[/b] (k9kxq @ May 08 2005,11:17)]Walmart
Folks want dollar value, not quality.
Strangely enough, this holds true. The price of good American products, or the price of Chinese imports, most will take the less expensive.

Look around your home and see how many items are made in China, same as in the late 50's and 60's we were flooded by products from Japan.

I remeber some of the toys my Mom and Dad gave to me that were made in Japan, they didn't hold up.

How about work shoes, I purchased a pair of Wolverines, #remeber they were made somewhere in Michigan and a good quality boot, not anymore they have a label on the iside of the tounge "Made in China" imagine that...

Lets give them 40 or 50 years, then just maybe the products will be of more quality...

kxq
It won't take 40 or 50 years like it did with Japan. We're going to see some real class stuff coming out of China before we know it. The sleeping tiger has awakened....deal with it.

eric

[kf6rdn]

Art Bell had an interesting topic on his "Coast to Coast" show last evening about all this.

Such things as China offereing to have the Arab countries under it's protective "umbrella", as China gets into the western style of culture with cars, factories et al, now they will be prime consumers of oil, they've already surpassed japan..
Anyway some of the socio political commentary was interesting.

Course I was half alseep, so can't quite quote anything accuratly.

[KC0KBH]

engrish (http://www.engrish.com)

[W2ILP]

It is a mistake to believe that all products made in China have been invented designed or methodized in the USA or even in Japan.
The fast drying non clotting ink used in ink jet printers was invented many years ago in China and has not been able to be copied elsewhere...The same goes for many fade proof dyes used on textiles. German chemists spent many unsuccessful years trying to duplicate red dyes that were imported from China for use in old Prussian uniforms.

And then there are china dishes that were made in China when Europeans were still using wooden bowls or their hands.

Clever those Chinese.

Another misconception is that fortune cookies are a Chinese thing.
No one in either Chinas, nor in Chinese restaurants in California, ever has fortune cookies available to either eat in or take out.
Fortune cookies were invented in Coney Island, Brooklyn, NY by a Gypsie who had to do some behind the scenes temporary work in a Chinese restaurant, which was a front for an ilegal lottery parlor..

Bob w2ilp (Illegal Lottery Parlor?)

[W2ILP]

I'm not surprised when I buy a replacement can opener or stapler that looks like the old one which was made in the USA and is labeled "Made in China". What surprises me is that most of the big exercise gear and tread mills sold in Sears are made in China. The cost of shippiing big heavy stuff does not seem to be a limiting factor.

What scares me is not just that the Chinese products have put many US businesses out of business but that China could pull the rug out from under us by greatly raising prices and being the sole source of everything that we need.

I also want to explain to you guys that because of automation cheep labor is not as important in manufacruring cost as it previously was. Modern production is not labor intensive. What is important is investment capital to buy modern automated machines for large scale production.
Apparently the USA can not get investors to invest large sums on tooling up for profits that may not occur in a few quarters.
Communist China ironically may be able to get government investment into building or expanding factories. Japan's government, schools and banks are more closely tied with manufacturing goals than ours in the USA. China has learned this kind of technocracy from Japan. American politicians are rarely engineers. They are mostly lawyers, whose business is to discourage anyone from doing anything that might break any law but not to encourage anyone to do anything that would lead to sensible technological long range progress by industrial engineers or scientists.

Enuf sed.

w2ilp (Ignorance Limits Progress)

[KD7ZRT]

Quote[/b] (w0pee @ May 09 2005,06:04)]So will be IBM Lap Tops now that IBM has sold their laptop division to a company in China
IBM ThinkPads have been made in and shipped from China for some time now. Mine came from China over a year ago, way before they were purchased by Levolo.

[W2ILP]

wa5krp listed most of the organizations that test and devise specifications for products.

Just how does this list help the average consumer know if an item is of proper quality or even if it meets any specs?

I am a life member of the IEEE and I can not afford to pay what they asks for some of their spec manuals. The cost would be more than the product in question might cost and if I had the spec it still might tell me nothing about what I actually see in the marketplace...or if the quality control where it was made followed the specs.

UL or SAE labels can be forged. I give VE tests at Underwriters Lab so I won't comment about their testing of the products that manufacturers submit to them. If a line cord has a UL label; it might just mean that the line cord has been UL approved and not the unit it is connected to.

So the only thing we may have to go by is "Consumer Reports".
CU claims to test many products and to recommend best buys or bad products by Brand names and model numbers.
I have found that much product information by CU has been technically incorrect. I can give examples here.
I am old enough to remember when CU advised everyone not to buy microwave ovens. I can also remember when they said that TV repairmen were gyping you if they replaced more than one vacuum tube on one service visit. CU constantly errs on high Fi equipment, digital cameras, bread toasters, washing machines, etc. in my opinion. "PC World" magazine does better on PCs and monitors.

This is because CU is run and managed by liberal artists. Not one person in higher management is an industrial engineer with any real manufacturing or test experience. CU tries to do the right thing. They take no commercial advertisements but when an engineer reads some of the testing methods they claim to use ...well they just show no common sense or technical knowledge..

One thing I can say in favor of the ARRL is that they are managed by hams...but even the ARRL is not so good in reporting about products. Their testing of antenna tuners for example, showed their utter ignorance in evaluating such products.

So we are probably still in the dark when it comes to comparing products. I feel that my technical knowledge may seem to make me better qualified to get the most bang for my bucks...but I too choose bad products occassionally.

w2ilp (Identifying Lousey Products?)

[n0jaa]

Quote[/b] (KG4ZQZ @ May 08 2005,23:59)]Quote[/b] (KG6QQL @ May 08 2005,20:29)]Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ May 08 2005,16:21)]You know this HDTV thing that OUR government is mandating? #
ahh.......huh? mandating HDTV?
- yep... IIRC, analog TV signals are set to disappear in what, two, three years? gonna be lots of folks turning on the 'ol TV set and getting static unless there's a digital receiver attached!
Yes, and you know why that's happening. It's because the TV industry lobbied Congress to make HDTV the new standard. I can guarantee you some of our "elected" Congress Critters made more than a few bucks off of that one.

Paul, N0JAA

[n0jaa]

Quote[/b] (KG4CGC @ May 08 2005,17:32)]PBS did an interesting piece on Wal-Mart last Sunday. Anyone see it?
I didn't see that, but I have been watching some stuff on CNBC about Wal-Mart and some of the bullying tactics they use to get a store built and drive mom-and-pop corner stores out of business. Their sole intent is to drive everyone else out of business so they'll be the only game in town. 'Taint purty!

Super Wal-Marts are rather self-sufficient these days. We all know what's there, we all have been there. All under one roof, you've got: department store, car repair shop, toy store, lawn and garden shop, grocery store, beauty salon, TV station (if you count closed circuit) and gas station. Wal-Mart even has its own fleet of tractor-trailers and its own police force (private security)! And don't forget about their member's-only store, Sam's Club. No in-house bank, yet, but I'm sure that's coming, although they do have their own credit card. Wal-Mart once operated its own restaurants in their stores, but apparently they find it more cost-effective to let McDonald's or some pizza joint do it.

Some of the things they have done is buy up hundreds of acres of land years in advance in the middle of nowhere, then years later, nowhere becomes somewhere. Wal-Mart suddenly owns prime real estate to build another of their mega-marts on after they have quietly had the property rezoned for commercial use. The surrounding neighbors learn about it, put together a class action lawsuit and threaten to take Wal-Mart to court. Wal-Mart settles out of court, "promising" not to build a mega-mart on the property, then building one anyway a few years later after everyone has forgotten about it.

Another of Wal-Mart's favorite tactics: they will resell the property for an exorbitant price to a developer, and use that money to buy more abandoned farmland in other nowheresvilles, to wait for the time that they, too, will become somewheresvilles.

All Hail to the United States of Wal-Mart!

Paul, N0JAA

[n0jaa]

Quote[/b] (KD7ZRT @ May 08 2005,18:19)]
Both my Apple iPod and IBM ThinkPad were not only manufactured in China, but were drop shipped from there as well.[/QUOTE]
Does this mean they were dropped before they were shipped, or after?

Paul, N0JAA

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[K8ERV]

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ May 11 2005,17:47)]# If a line cord has a UL label; it might just mean that the line cord has been UL approved and not the unit it is connected to.
A bit surprised you said that. Back when I was working closely with U-L, they did not use the word "approved", cause it might imply a quality etc endorsement, rather than the correct meeting of safety (only) standards.

They "listed" (end product), or "registered" (components) #items.

As with line cords, use of a listed wall-wart does not mean that U-L has examined the entire product. But then they don't need to if the wall-wart's output meets certain energy limits. As I recall (poorly) this means less than 42 volts and 8 amps. These figures may not be right for all applications, the 8 amps seems a bit high.

While on the subject of U-L, a #"class 2" item, usually a transformer or transformer operated supply, means that the item will not be an external fire or shock hazard if the output is shorted, or under some possibly worse condition. The item may fail, smoke, sputter and say bad things, but will not be an external hazard by U-L's tests. Class 2 is also called "impedance limited" or maybe it is "impedance protected".

TOM K8ERV #Montrose Colo

[W2ILP]

erv...

As I said in my post I will not comment about UL in depth. #My HAM VE sessions are hosted by UL in Mellville, LI ,NY and I am closely in contact with some of the UL staff. #

You must remember that UL is now a large foreign based organization. #You must also realize how UL is intended to work.

!) UL receivers products from manufacturers who seek UL approval.
2) UL tests these products using standards and testing methods that may or may not be realistic...(IMHO especially in areas that are controversial such as RF hazard emission.)
3) If products do not meet specs, UL informs the manufactiurers and denys their stamp of approval.
4) If products do meet testing specs (however limited) UL grants approval.

IF UL does not approve, it is then up to the manufacturers to redesign the product to meet the specs, to elimiate the product, or to design a different product. #
UL is a testing facility, not an engineering design facility.
UL does not even recommend how to meet the specs in most cases. UL does not reengineer the product!

In the same way major airframe manufacturers are not responsible to redesign avionics products...The companies that get paid to design and manufacture them are. #Sometimes this area gets murky and field service reps or airframe engineerrs are reminded of that fact ...only too late to place responsibilities where they belong ...and only too late to save our government and the American people from #paying the wrong people for doing things that they can't even be responsible to do. #Some avionics systems may not be fully tested until they are actually installed on the aircraft that they are designed to be used on. #No numerical specs can be applied to many of such systems until the practical all over systems requirements are stressed. #An all over spec which say "The system shall work in the manner that was initially intended" is often applied to commercial systems that must meet FAA requirements...but not to "secret" systems that are at the cores and purposes of modern military aircrafts.

Who me? #Where does it say in the specs that it must...?...
I met the specs...If it don't work in the sysytem...Who cares ...?
Give me another contract and I'll design it again to newer spcs...if you give me more time to ....

I hope the GAO doesn't read this...

Get it done in China. It will be cheaper and might not even need to be tested because a million Chinese have already tried it. It was safe and it worked!

Enuf sed.

w2ilp (Irresponsible Listed Parties?)

[KD7WHQ]

Most of the VCR's sold in this country, regardless of branding, are Funai Corp machines.

Funai is, China.

If you have one and it flakes, open it up, and spin the mode switch a few times.

90% of the time, that's all it take to fix it.

YMMV, of course.

Someday, we will equalize the trade with China, but I'm not holding my breath..

[ka5s]

Quote[/b] (KG6QQL @ May 08 2005,17:29)]ahh.......huh? mandating HDTV?
Relax. It's only a problem if you want to watch TV. Who would need THAT?
FWIW, the price we pay to keep foreign workers out is having them compete from their homelands, where we cannot tax them to pay for Social Security with their wages, and where every dollar we spend strengthens their countries -- and weakens ours.


Cortland
KA5S

[ka5s]

About nine or ten years ago a McDuff store (Tandy low-cost subsidiary) near Fort Worth sold off their $300 Color TV's for $75 "as is." Seems "as is" is how they'd been sold to Tandy. "Cheap TV, no problem. Throw away bad one, still make money!"

They were tested *here*, and by customers -- #because someone wanted cheap stuff without looking too closely at its quality.

We got -- we get -- exactly what we ask for. Exactly!

The Japanese caught up and then beat us on quality when they started learning in the 1970's (from us?) how to mass produce quality. #We couldn't do it the way they did -- we aren't that disciplined; apologize publicly to the whole day shift? Unions'd HOWL.

But my junky 1965 Army-issue Japanese tools might be today's Shanghai versions, and the lesson is: They WILL catch up. Especially if all we do is sit on our butts and complain. #


Cortland
KA5S

[ka5s]

Quote[/b] (K8ERV @ May 12 2005,05:56)]condition. The item may fail, smoke, sputter and say bad things, but will not be an external hazard by U-L's tests.
Though not working for UL, I've been involved with some safety tests and they can be. . . exciting. There is good reason why electrical stress is applied behind a thick plastic shield. Ker-POW!

I saw a circuit breaker test once where the current source's resistor bank was overstressed; smoke poured out of it and one tech held up a marshmallow on a toasting fork. (Not that he'd dare eat it.)

Fun!

Cortland
KA5S

[N7RJD]

Quote[/b] (k9kxq @ May 08 2005,06:30)]Lets give them 40 or 50 years, then just maybe the products will be of more quality...
Problem is by the time the quality is up the prices will be too and we will turn our importing skills loose on another continent with cheaper labor.

Cheaper labor = You get what you pay for! Don't expect much.

[n2nh]

Quote[/b] (KG4ZQZ @ May 09 2005,05:59)]Quote[/b] (KG6QQL @ May 08 2005,20:29)]Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ May 08 2005,16:21)]You know this HDTV thing that OUR government is mandating?
ahh.......huh? mandating HDTV?
- yep... IIRC, analog TV signals are set to disappear in what, two, three years? gonna be lots of folks turning on the 'ol TV set and getting static unless there's a digital receiver attached!
The change-over was set for 2006, but it seems to be taking a bit longer. All those TV frequencies will probably be up for grabs.

[n2nh]

Quote[/b] (XV2PS @ May 09 2005,07:46)]Yaesu made in China
Sorry, but my Yaesu FT-817ND says "Made in Japan". So does my FT-857.

[K8ERV]

Quote[/b] (ka5s @ May 16 2005,17:49)]I saw a circuit breaker test once where the current source's resistor bank was overstressed; smoke poured out of it and one tech held up a marshmallow on a toasting fork. (Not that he'd dare eat it.) #
Once visited LittleFuse (or maybe it was Buss). They ran 100,000 amps (briefly) thru a solid 10ga wire. We were not behind a protective panel, we were in another room with a reinforced glass viewing pane.

I thot WW3 had started---

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

[n0jaa]

Quote[/b] (KE7DLG @ May 16 2005,16:57)]Quote[/b] (k9kxq @ May 08 2005,06:30)]Lets give them 40 or 50 years, then just maybe the products will be of more quality...
Problem is by the time the quality is up the prices will be too and we will turn our importing skills loose on another continent with cheaper labor.

Cheaper labor = You get what you pay for! Don't expect much.
Maybe by then there will be a factory on Antarctica making air conditioners!

Paul, N0JAA.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[n0jaa]

Quote[/b] (n2nh @ May 16 2005,17:32)]Quote[/b] (XV2PS @ May 09 2005,07:46)]Yaesu made in China
Sorry, but my Yaesu FT-817ND says "Made in Japan". #So does my FT-857.
Maybe the "Made in Japan" label was made in China!

Paul, N0JAA.

[W2ILP]

There is always the myth that the Japanese learned from us.
They say that an American man, named Demming, taught the Japanese all they needed to know about what was a buzzword in the 70s..
The buzzword was "Quality Circles".
Now what does "Quality Circles" mean?
It is the simple idea that the designers of a product must be in a short feedback loop with the assembly line workers and testers.
We had the same idea in the days of Henry Ford...
BUT we lost it when large corporations built company headquarters far from their manufacturing plants and engineers were in still another city. This happened because higher paid American engineers did not want to live near factories in towns that became slums. They moved further and further into cleaner suburbs. As a result cars were sent to dealers with doors that did not fit, and TV sets were sent to dealers which could only work poorly on one channel, etc....while the engineers knew nothing about quality problems until customers complained.
In most Japanese factories competent engineers were on the floor below the production line, if there was anything that the testers and troubleshooters couldn't get fixed the units went down a shute right to the engineer, who had to decide what the problem was and what to do about it before any more units could be made with the same problem. This is common sense...not just something you have to be told by a guru.
This came naturally in Japan, because there is more loyalty to the management and people are not afraid of being blamed for problems as long as threy get solved and thus communication between levels is surprisingly better than in the US. The fact that Japanes will often say everything is good as a matter of respect is also a myth. The average Japanese factory worker has more respect for the engineers than the factory worker in the US (if he ever gets to meet any of the engineers). What is more important is that the Japanese Industrial Engineers have no place to move away to and must stay where the production is happening.

VCRs were almost all made in Japan by Matsuchita (sp?) It didn't matter whose brand name was on them. The newer VCRs are now made in China no matter whose name is on them. The VCR mechanism is a modern miracle because it is made up of simple stamped out pieces of metal, but works very accurately. The development of the VCR heads is an evolution between US and Japanese and others who took each step in impoving it. The whole concept of the modern VCR was developed by people working for Sony. This involves how the heads scan and track. VCRs are now going to be obsolete as they can be replaced by DVD CD players. Most new units contain both.

If in doubt about who invented what it is a good idea to search the Internet. Everything was not invented here and a lot of things that were invented here could never have been manufactured here because we do not have enough innovative industrial engineers living in factories who can improve things to the level where they work.

Enuf sed.

w2ilp (Increase Local Production)

[KF0RT]

ILP-

I remember the quality circle classes from the 80's. And everything since -- there have been a bunch of them. Some good, others just "feel good."

You hit the nail on the head by identifying the problem as one of communications. It's hard for me to say that this has anything to do with the distance between the engineers and the factory workers, though. More often, it is indicative of a management problem. Today, there are many successful ventures where manufacturing is a world away from engineering. Much of China's industry thrives on this these days, but that is changing.

Today, it is getting more difficult to find competent manufacturing facilities in the US. Understand that manufacturing is an art unto itself, and the days of high school kids "turning bolts" on a line for minimum wage are long gone. It now takes talent to turn that bolt and make sure tolerances are met.

So, outsourcing isn't as simple as we would like to believe. In order to manufacture a high-tech product today, a company needs talent at every step and feedback to the engineers is just a small (but necessary) part of the overall picture. As an engineer, I have great respect for the process. Sometimes, someone will ask me a question about a product I developed and I have to tell them that they really need to talk to someone in "support." Why? Because the support guys see more of the "wierd stuff" than I do. So much of this is just managing priorities.

Ultimately though, I've never seen the class distinction between engineers and others that you mention. May be accurate in a historical sense, but any company that fosters this behavior today is doomed. It doesn't matter if manufacturing is next door or in China -- most communications is instant today. It's the quality of the communications that's a problem.

By the way, it's Matsu####a, and the cheap VCR mechanism of today is the product of two plus decades of hard work from both manufacturing and engineering sectors and both sides of the "pond" (though mostly Far East). It is now a "refined" product. CD and DVD technology happened much faster, and that's the name of the game.

My question: Do we support HDTV technology when the networks are intent on brainless programming? Swear to Jebus, I turned the toob on last night just to see someone tearing strips of duct tape off a semi-naked fat guy. That was network TV. Oh yeah, my idea of fun. NOT!

I'm thinking a 756ProIII might be the better bet for my entertainment dollar. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

73, Rob

[W2ILP]

kf0rt
I forgot to mention that many inexpensive VCRs were manufactured in South Korea, under the brand name Emerson. I once worked for the original Emerson Radio and Phono Corp when they made TV sets in New Jersey. The Abrams family, who owned the business (both commercial and govt.). Sold the name Emerson along with the logo of a music sign and moved to Israel;....laying off everyone who worked in New Jersey. Maybe that is why things that have changed bother me more than most people.

I agree that they don't need minimum wage earners to turn bolts the way they used to. If you know much about how integrated circuits or microprocessors are now made and how they are mounteed on boards then you would know that this is now all done by machinery. How many people would it take to dope the substrate on a microprocessor chip to make the equivalent of 10 million active components as are now on a Pentium chip? The answer is : NONE. Tolerances? They are met intrinsically or the none of the chips could work. Shure it takes a few very skilled people to devise the processes and to make production machines but none of the actual work could be done by human hands. Once the methods are established and they work aftere initial corrections are made there is eventually a high yield. Items are so identical that there is sometime little or no need for spot checking.

The are lots of foresighted inventors in the USA but many do not understand modern production. They can not go down to a production line and pull a unit out and modify it to try out a good idea...but the country who has the production line going has an advantage that improvements can be tried on existing units. The factory also has the tools, clean room facilities, etc. to make the modification. The inventor away from the factory can dream all he wants because his lab is not capable of trying to do anything to make his dreams come true.

Chinese industry is not miles away from their own industrial engineers.
Their few highly skilled techs can become highly skilled industrial engineers and there are also academic institutions in China where they can learn theoretical engineering. Our engineers have nothing to do with the factories in China once they get started and it becomes their job. You see the manufacturers and investors build factories in China...,not because a lot of unskilled labor is cheaper there...but because a little needed skilled engineering is much cheaper there. Some of the engineers there might have come from India or Japan or Europe...but most of them are Chinese.

The class distinction between management, engineers and those who work in production is a de-facto class distinction, because there is a great lack of communication between different cities or even different buildings. These people don't know each other and rarely read reports of problems until they get reported by field engineers or customers. True there are American methods engineers...BUT some of them are told to leave the production areas after their jobs are wrongly believed to be finished. This is the fault of bean counters (guys who price the whole job in man hours or supposed fault numbers) who are usually far off from reality one way or the other.

w2ilp (Inventing Litttle Production)

[K8ERV]

Quote[/b] (n0jaa @ May 17 2005,11:05)]Maybe by then there will be a factory on Antarctica making air conditioners!
Nah, they will just bottle the cold air---

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

[KC2KFC]

I thought this was a rather interesting article concerning products manufactured in China

Stopping the Theft of American Ingenuity (http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050518/1074130.asp)

[W2ILP]

Ok on the article suggested by kc2kfc;

It is foolish to believe that you can manufacture something in another country and easily protect your copyrights. You cant even manufacture something here and protect your copyrights in the USA in many cases.

When engineers learn how to do things in a factory setting they make improvements on whatever is being made and they eventually form new companies and disband old companies and alter stuff so that noone knows whose patents are involved for shure. Most of the solid state experts at Intel and Motorola came from Fairchild. Fairchild patented a 4 bit microprocessor that would not even be fit for a toy now. Patents run out after 17 years. There are companies like RCA and Hazeltine that lived off patent rights for years. When they stopped making new production and new patents...Well Hazeltine folded up and sold out, RCA sold their name commercially to Phillips of Europe, etc.
Most companies who hold patents can't use them unless they share them with others by granting cross licensing...You give me your patents, I'll give you mine. If this were not so nothing would ever get made...or there could be no competition.

It is foolish to blame the Chinese companies for steeling patents along with doing the dog work of mass production.
It is like hiring a starving man to work in a bakery and not expect him to ever eat any of the bread he bakes. If people who have invented things want the best protection they can get, why do they sell the rights for production in China to begin with? Why don't they get production going in the USA? I mentioned the reasons before...There are others, both political and economic.

There is nothing to protect engineers and technicians from being laid off when companies move or out source...or evenwhen the government closes engineering facilities. How are we supposed to be worried about a guy who wants to get paid for doing nothing just because he had an idea that is being used in a Chinese factory...Maybe he got that idea from a technician who worked for him who is now unemployed because his boss decided to have his idea used in China???
According to Fortune magazine the highest paid hourly employee in the world was a Japanese Methods Engineer. He was worth it because he saved his company millions. He could not have saved millions if his company didn't produce millions of units for a world market. The initial ideas are not as rewarding as the end results. More than half of the worlds greatest Physicists, Chemists and other Scientists died in poverty...even when they held patents that were valuable after their death...or when it was realized that someone was steeling their patents.

w2ilp (Insecure Legal Patents?)

[K0RGR]

I know it's an American company, but Wal Mart has assumed the role of marketing department for the Red Chinese government. Over 80% of what they sell worldwide is manufactured in China, and yes, they have forced many American and other western manufacturers to close in favor of Chinese factories.

It's arguable whether or not a Wal Mart really contributes anything to a community when they move in. Many people believe they drain off far more dollars than they bring into the community. I think they are really a giant vacuum cleaner sucking dollars to Peking, with a fairly large percentage going to the heirs of Sam Walton and other big stockholders.

I cringe every time I see those automated checkout counters - that's just a few hundred more jobs eliminated in my town.

Wal Mart once had a policy of favoring American producers, wherever possible. I don't think that most Americans are aware that the policy changed drastically years ago.

Watch what happens if the U.S. decides to impose a tarriff on all Chinese goods due to their unfair currency exchange rate. I doubt that the administration will really do this, but we've threatened to. Wal Mart will have a collective heart attack!

[W2ILP]

Amid local controversy Wal-Mart opened a large store in Mexico. Americans think this will help our economy. It might be profitable for shareholders and owners of Wal-mart, but most of the stuff being sold in Mexico is made in China...so I feel it isn't doing much to protect either us or the small businessmen of Mexico..or the folks in Mexico and visitors to Mexico who feel that Wal-Martization of the landscape is destroying the natural charm of Mexico itself.

w2ilp (Influencia La Patria)