Ethics Opinions Requested

[kc7ten]

Gentlemen:

I have a question to pose to the group. This is an actual situation that I find myself in.

I sold a radio through an internet ad to a ham who lives on the other side of the country. I advertised the radio in good condition and in working order, which was true. The rig was working perfectly when I shipped it.

After the other ham received the radio, a modern transceiver, he told me that it was drawing so much current that his MFJ 30 (or 35) watt power supply could not handle the load. He said he hooked it to a marine battery, and that it ran the battery down quickly. #And he asked if that was why I had sold the rig.

I told the other ham that I had used the rig with a 20-amp switching power supply without problem, and that the in-line fuses I'd used with the rig when mobile were 30A fuses, and that they had never blown. I suggested that he check actual current draw with a good ammeter, and check his connections.

The other ham took the rig to his technician to be checked out, and found that the rig worked well on the HF bands, but that it was intermittent on 6-meters. His technician told him that the problem was a cold solder joint on one of the circuit boards. I had never experienced this problem in the years I'd owned the rig, but I rarely used it on 6-meters, and then only to try it with some local repeaters. This was NOT the problem that the ham originally described to me.

The other ham asked me to take the rig back and to refund the purchase price. I agreed to do so, less the shipping and the PayPal fee. The other ham felt that I should pay half the return shipping (I had paid the shipping to him) but we never went down that road in the end.

I also offered an alternative. I offered to refund $50.00 of the $450 purchase price to pay for the other ham's technician to repair the rig.

The purchaser agreed, and I refunded $50.00 as agreed.

Several days have passed, and tonight I received another e-mail from the purchaser. He told me that the rig is displaying a "new" problem, in that the memories are "changing" by themselves while the rig is on his tech's bench. Again, this problem never manifested itself while I owned the rig.

The purchaser would now like me to take back this rig and refund his money.

So... the question is:

Was my ethical obligation met when the purchaser agreed to accept the $50.00 refund in lieu of returning the rig for a full refund? #Or, do I have an obligation to take the rig back and refund the remainder of the purchase price?

I believe that I have fulfilled my obligation, but I understand the purchaser's position as well. I'd be interested in courteous, considered opinions.

Regards,

Darrell

[KC0REY]

I once purchased an old car. It was a car I knew well and I knew it had been well taken care of. The day I bought it the clutch went out. Can you go back on the seller because the car broke? No, you would get nowhere and that is the way things go.

Is a used radio the same as a used car or any other type of used product? Yes, there is no difference. Doo-Doo Occurs.

If it was new and you were HRO then yes, refund or exchange and even that is at the discretion of the seller.

Have I purchased used radio equipment that did not work as I expected? You bet! Again Doo-Doo Occurs

Have I sold equipment that I knew did not work? Yes, and I specified each KNOWN problem. Have I sold used equipment that showed unknown problems? Not that I know of. I would feel badly if I had, but those are the breaks.

[w6vps]

I believe you have no further obligation.
My suspicious nature maybe working a little overtime here but I wonder about the spate of NEW TROUBLES that have suddenly appeared. After all the gear is used. Is it possible these problems are semi-bogus and the buyer is having buyer's remorse? Perhaps he wants a way out of the deal...but can't put it to you forthrightly? That's something to consider. Bottom line...you must do what your consicience dictates. 73 - Paul

[kc5nyo]

I've seen a lot of hams make light of the fact that so many sellers put in their ads something like, "Works and looks fine, but sold as is". Now you know why they do it......... there are all kinds of people out there that have no problem at all taking advantage of a nice guy with a conscience. Used gear is just that, used gear. Remember this incident in your next ad...... you have to cover yourself and the extent of your responsibility to the buyer.

[K8ERV]

Guess I have been lucky. I sell SATISFACTION guaranteed. Never had a request for return or refund. But then I sell mostly small parts rather than expensive rigs.

Your mileage may vary.

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

[N5PVL]

In the long run, no matter what anybody says, it's your lookout. Do whatever seems best at first guess.

If you're really stumped and are equally willing to go either way, then just flip a coin... If you are dissapointed with the outcome then hey presto! - You've developed an opinion!


Charles Brabham, N5PVL

Director: USPacket (http://www.uspacket.org)
Admin: HamBlog.Com (http://www.hamblog.com)
Weblog: N5PVL's Blog (http://www.hamblog.com/blog_n5pvl.php)

[K3UD]

When I sell something I always try to list anything that I know to be wrong with it. Last summer I listed my whole station which was severly damaged by lightning. I put the phrase "Guaranteed to be DOA" in the ad. Sold it to a broadcast engineer who agreed to the price and then spent a few months troubleshooting the stuff and getting it going again.

If I sold a radio that I knew to be working on all bands and modes and got the email you did, I would first wonder about the treatment it got via shipping, then I would wonder about whether or not the the buyer immediatly took it out of the package, fired it up and somehow did some damage to it.

Alternatively, I would wonder if he went to DK mods to try to soup it up a bit and botched the job. (particulary with a "high Power" mod which would cause it to draw higher current, or the opening up the transmitter for general coverage mod.)

Unfortunately, there is absolutely no way to tell, or prove anything. In this case it sounds like buyer's remorse or maybe botched mod remorse.

Good luck

73
George
K3UD

[W7DJM]

The only other possibility I can think of at this point is for you to have him send the radio back and IF IF IF you (and your technical staff) determine that the cause was some glitch that was NOT caused by shipping damage and was NOT caused by someone (the buyer) tampering with or being technically incompetant (hooking the power up backwards) then and only then will you refund anything.

This thing, if you are telling it straight, has an awful smell to me.

Where I used to "hang out" there is an infamous ham, who, unfortunately, seems to have a lot of carisma. His "golden screwdriver" forays are semi famous--and not to the good,either. He is always buying and selling gear, opening up gear he knows nothing about, pulling out option boards and filters, and "golden screwdrivering" them.

This almost sounds to me like what the buyer is doing.


Having said all that, one or two good bounces off the back of the UPS truck.. . . . . .

[kc7ten]

Thanks to all who offered an opinion. I apprecaite the time you took.

I spoke with the Chaplain of the fire department where I volunteer, and to the Chief and Captain about this. All of them agreed that I have met my obligation to this buyer.

I still feel badly about it, I would be much more comfortable if the buyer were happy with his purchase. But he's been inside the rig now, and I have no idea of the competency of his technician.

I feel better about my decision not to take the rig back, but I still feel badly about the deal.

73

Darrell

[KD5KUF]

I have never bought a rig online that didn't work, but some have needed realignment. Whether from years of use, or the bangs and jolts of shipment. But like I tell my customers in the mortorcycle dealership I work in, if you buy an electronic part, and we don't test, install and retest, it is like a light bulb. It may burn out in five minutes and you are stuck with it. And I will not take it back under any circumnstances. I love it when they bring a part back anyway and say, that wasn't it, it still won't run. They hook it up they own it. Period. Either they just blew up a new part, or their diagnosis was wrong. Not my problem either way. The manufacturer will not cover anything after a certain time has elapsed. From then on no one is responsible. If it's a used car, you fix it or junk it, same with a radio. Moral is, never pay more than you can afford to lose when you gamble on used equipment. Because it is always a gamble. You win some, you lose some.

[W5HTW]

I believe you made the right decision, and it is certainly the decision I would have made. And sooner than you did. Unless you supplied a guarantee, stating up front you would take it back, and how you would handle refunds and shipping charges.

As you say, you don't know a thing about his tech. He may not BE a tech, but some ham who knows a dab more than the purchaser, so the purchaser considers him a tech. Interesting how people "own" a tech, a mechanic, a lawyer. He's MY tech. Probably not. Probably a fellow ham. But even if he is a professional, who earns an honorable living doing that, you had no idea of his skill, or lack of, in this type of radio, his overall knowledge, or what has happened to the radio once it left your possession.

To be honest, I would not sell used ham gear with any sort of guarantee. I don't sell much, but if I did, it was always be 'as is.' Same with cars. I have sold cars and trucks I know collapsed from fatal heart attacks shortly after I sold them. Well, to be honest, I wouldn't sell them if they were ready to run another 100K miles! I'm honest enough I say things like "this one will need a new carb" or "this one needs brakes." And in radios, I'll be honest; "this one needs new finals."

I have bought some lemons (cars AND radios!) and I have never asked for a refund from either an individual, or a used equipment/car dealer, unless there was an up front offer or guarantee.

Sorry it took you so long.

Ed

[K0RGR]

I've been on both sides of this equation, and I have to say that my sympathy tends to be with the seller. Old radios are not perfect, and radios that worked perfectly for ages will suddenly expire when transplanted to a new environment.

I don't sell radios to friends, either, because of something that happened with a car years ago. When I moved to Iowa, I had the California version of the Chevy S-10 pickup truck, which I really liked, but it was rear-wheel drive and I wanted something better in the ice and snow, so it soon became surplus. My wife's best friend begged us to let her husband buy it, so we did, for half of what I was hoping to get for it. I explained to them that if they EVER had to take it in for service, to tell the mechanic that this was the California version, and had the California emissions package on it.

We didn't hear from them for a few weeks. It turned out that the clutch had gone out in the truck a couple weeks after they bought it from us. When they took it in to get the clutch fixed, they decided to have a tuneup done - big mistake! The mechanic was alarmed to find that it was running much too lean, so he adjusted the mixture - which resulted in the California smog control malfunctioning. They ended up replacing the onboard computer. $2000 later it still wasn't right. I told them to get the original computer back and take it to Chevrolet, and tell them it was a California car. They did, and the problem was quickly fixed.
But the original mechanic would not refund their money. Sadly, they stopped talking to us for selling them this 'lemon'. Ahhhhhh...

[N1XHF]

Sounds to me that this guy did a power mod(wonder why he had a marine battery on hand? linears maybe?) and tried to unlock the VFO for out of band operation. Since he did have the covers off the radio you are right not to take the rig back.

[ai4ep]

correct

[kc7ten]

In fairness, I have no reason to believe the guy tried to modify the rig. My main point is that he took the rig to a tech of his choice, and we agreed on a remedy for the problem that he identified. I paid the amount we agreed, and at that point I think he "owned" the rig. It seems unreasonable for him to expect a different remedy now, after he and/or his tech. have opened the cases.

Thanks again for all the comments.

Darrell

[wa4brl]

You tried to do the right thing, for the right reason, and now you're getting burned for it. I suspect there are NO problems with the rig as received. The buyer was fishing to see if you'd offer monetary compensation for a "reported" problem. Since you gave in once, maybe you will again, so he reports something else. Doesn't hurt him to try, he has no consience. It's just stolen money to him -- no big deal.

The rest of us who have consciences can't comprehend that kind of thinking until we learn our lesson. Now you've learned it. Try to be happy it only cost you 50 bucks. In the future, if you know an item was OK when shipped, advise the buyer to file a claim with the delivery company.

[w0wls]

My opinion is that you should have a clear conscience in the matter and put it behind you. The other gentleman excepted your offer of a refund for repairs instead of returning the radio. That would have been "case closed" for me. You also mentioned that the buyer was a great distance away. Shipping damage is always a probability. Take 2 Tylenol, get a good nights sleep and go on with your life.
73's

[ky5u]

ten,

Like all isseus, there is always two sides to a story. Based on what you have related it sounds like you'v done all you're morally required to do. In the interest of fairness, I'd like to hear the other side of the story.

Truthfully, buying used gear is "buyer beware". While people who misrepresent the condition of items should be skinned and set a-fire, many amateurs have unrealistic expectations. When I sell something I usually give the buyer 24 hours to change their mind. I have taken mobile rigs back with blow polarity diodes on three occasions, but it is not worth the bad blood. Paying the technician bill was fair. Tell the guy the gravy train is over.

[kj5t]

Once you sale the rig, you sold the rig. Its not your fault the rig had problems, if you did not know of them. Its possible these problems were made by the ham and his tech. You never know... Don't worry about it. If you and the ham end up having some bad vibes between eachother, don't worry about it.

IMHO, when you buy used gear, you buy it As-Is. If the seller tells you it was tested working, and it does not work.. Then the seller just lied. If the seller tells you it worked last time they used it. The seller may be right. Or maybe they did not use it on all the bands/modes.

[KC0KBH]

I plan to grease up the burned out bearing on my old little chainsaw and sell it off for $30 As-is. I was going to sell that thing a while ago to buy my Stihl, but now I got a Stihl free, and only had to spend $20 on parts to get it working, and now it cuts all day without a problem. All my time is spent cutting now with my Stihl, instead of fixing that dumb Mcculloch.

[ai4ep]

Several years ago one of the neighbors of some of the relatives I was visiting was using a chainsaw to cut some small trees in his yard, yet I noticed there was no sound coming from the saw. My relative & I walked over and talked to the dude. My relative took the saw from his hands and pulled the cord and started the motor. His neighbor jumped back and asked " what s that noise " ??

My relative & I could not keep from laughing as we walked back to his home, knowing the dude with the chainsaw could not hear us.

[KG4CGC]

Perhaps the buyer may have had an identical rig and wanted to pull a "switch" on a couple of boards. Stranger things have happened.

[kb2vxa]

Hello Texas Chainsaw lovers,

Unless you express or imply warantee anything sold may be considered as is, period.

73 de Warren KB2VXA