WHERE IS THE BPL INTERFERENCE?

[kb9ylu]

I live next to Princeton IL and BPL is here on a trial basis . I Have searched for the interferance and so have many other hams that live here. What is up ARRL said there would be sounds coming over the wires like 50,000 crickets. I cant hear 1 cricket. is arrl just saying this to get more members? I dont know? but BPL is here and running and hooked up to people who now have service. dont beleive me come to Princeton IL 61356 look it up and come on down.73

[ad4mg]

Quote[/b] (kb9ylu @ Feb. 05 2005,20:44)]I live next to Princeton IL and BPL is here on a trial basis . I Have searched for the interferance and so have many other hams that live here. What is up ARRL said there would be sounds coming over the wires like 50,000 crickets. I cant hear 1 cricket. is arrl just saying this to get more members? I dont know? but BPL is here and running and hooked up to people who now have service. dont beleive me come to Princeton IL 61356 look it up and come on down.73
No need to get confrontational with the 1st post in a thread OM. #Is the BPL system in your area fully operational, and how many subscribers are there currently using the system? #If there are few, or no subscribers, there will be no noise. #What is your proximity to an injection point? #I understand that these are typically the problem areas. #It is entirely possible that the BPL service provider is notching out the amateur radio bands successfully, which would be good news.

Your tone suggests anger with the ARRL and amateurs opposed to BPL. #If BPL can be implemented without interfering with amateur radio, or any other licensed service, I don't think anyone will have an issue with it. #The track record of BPL is such that it suggests that interference-free operation of the technology is very difficult, if not impossible.

Visiting Princeton IL 61356 won't be necessary, we'll just take your word as the truth. #If you are in close proximity to the BPL installation, and it's up and running with a multitude of subscribers, and you hear no interference, then this all becomes a non-issue. #And that would be good news for both amateurs and BPL providers.

It will take more than one successful BPL rollout in Princeton IL to convince the amateur community that the technology can co-exist with licensed services. #And although the ARRL is dealing with many unpopular issues without much progress, I seriously doubt that they concocted the BPL interference issue in an effort to increase membership. #The accusation is absurd.

No, I'm not a member of the ARRL, and don't plan on re-joining, ever.

73,
Luke

[K3UD]

In my experience 50,000 crickets is an understatement. It is more like a Gieger Counter sitting on top of an unshielded atomic pile. I visited a test site in MO and every band from 80 - 10 meters had between 20 and 40 over S9 Interference, complete with the hellish sound of the Gieger Counter gone mad.

(I did not have an antenna to test 160 meters on my mobile unit, but using the 80 meter antenna it was certainly there also)

Maybe you are too far away from the test area. The test area I visited comprised two blocks and the interference could be detected almost 1/4 mile from the test area.

73
George
K3UD

[ky5u]

Let's hope kb9ylu has indeed found the first BPL system without interference. It would give other power companies something to study and ideas to use. It's worth a good look-see.

[kb9ylu]

I checked about cedar rapids iowa and it seems they incorporated a wireless system that did NOT work.the system in princeton il has 13 bpl boxes 1 at every transformer that is being used for the trial,and there are subscribers to the bpl online as we speak.Am i mad at the arrl well no,but they made it sound so bad i was ready to get rid of my gear and the spokesman (Steve Gross) that arrl had here was a misimformed confused gentleman.I will keep you informed if this goes city wide and what the results are.I have stood under the bpl boxes and heard no interference.

[ad4mg]

Quote[/b] (kb9ylu @ Feb. 06 2005,13:11)]I checked about cedar rapids iowa and it seems they incorporated a wireless system that did NOT work.the system in princeton il has 13 bpl boxes 1 at every transformer that is being used for the trial,and there are subscribers to the bpl online as we speak.Am i mad at the arrl well no,but they made it sound so bad i was ready to get rid of my gear and the spokesman (Steve Gross) that arrl had here was a misimformed confused gentleman.I will keep you informed if this goes city wide and what the results are.I have stood under the bpl boxes and heard no interference.
You are on to the fact that there are several different approaches to delivery of broadband over power lines. #You are in a position to offer information not previously available to the informed readers of this site! #I think all here would be pleased if you could offer any reports on interference (or lack of) to the amateur spectrum, particularly the 80-10 meter bands. #Any additional information would also be appreciated, such as the receiver type, frequency, antenna specifics, etc. #All of this will provide terrific information that can be used to formulate a conclusion about the BPL trial in your area. #The name of the company doing the trial, and the brand name and model of the BPL equipment would be most helpful too. #If the system in your area works, it provides amateurs an argument that, if done properly, BPL can be deployed without harmful interference to licensed services. #You will certainly enjoy a large audience if you can be the source of this type of information!

I see you just joined QRZ! #Welcome to the site ... its a great place to hang out when not on the air. #Quite a few of the amateurs that hang out here are pretty sharp, and I've learned a lot from them. #Don't take anything you read here too seriously though! #You need a thick skin to last around here for very long!

Looking forward to your future reports on BPL in your area.

Best 73,
Luke Bannister

[KD7WHQ]

Quite!
To date, all installations have wreaked havoc on the bands.
If you aren't hearing anything at all, do a bit of investigation and figure out what it is they are doing that is preventing the interference.

The more information we all have, the least likely BPL will be a problem..

[n5tjd]

What equipement were you using? What bands were you monitoring? It would be GREAT if BPL and Amateur Radio could co-exist. Heck, I'd be the first to sign up for it since I am out in the boonies. BUT, everything we have seen so far seems to indicate that it would be very difficult if not impossible considering the frequencies used and the medium of transmission. I'd love to be proven wrong though.

[N1LAF]

Does anyone know what the distance between repeaters on BPL are? If they have to deploy many repeaters to make BPL viable, why not use a wireless system in the Ghz band, with 2 to 3 times the bandwidth? I would imagine that signals over power lines will radiate, not to mention impedance mismatching and other losses. Interesting that the frequencies chosen, 2 Mhz to 70 mhz, clears the AM and FM broadcast bands. If BPL affects ham bands as badly as advertised, then police, fire, and other utilities may be affected as well, and may be a matter of public safety. And would it work the other way around, ham radio service disrupting BPL? The only way for BPL to be inexpensive, is to increase the service charge for everyone. And if that is the case, then could unfair practices be an issue?

[ka5s]

Quote[/b] (kb9ylu @ Feb. 05 2005,17:44)]I Have searched for the interferance and so have many other hams that live here. What is up ARRL said there would be sounds coming over the wires like 50,000 crickets. I cant hear 1 cricket. is arrl just saying this to get more members? I dont know? but BPL is here and running and hooked up to people who now have service. dont beleive me come to Princeton IL 61356 look it up and come on down.73
If it's a loaded, running system, that may be very good news indeed. But check outside the Amateur bands too, will you? Merely jamming SWBC or low band VHF wouldn't be a good solution either.

Cortland
KA5S

[kb9ylu]

I will try to answer any questions that are asked in this thread. The City Of Princeton has its own electric generation and distribution. One of my good friends is a lineman for the city. He saw me at a city council meeting that the ARRL had us attend to fight off the BPL deployment. After the meeting he told me most of are information seemed to be incorrect and wondered if I wanted to see what info he had. The biggest issue was the six BPL deployments the ARRL rep said had been shut down by the FCC for interference was in fact only one. Cedar Rapids stopped their deployment after many interference problems. Their system relied heavily on wireless technology. This was what was causing the interference. The other five deployments were still running and some, like Manassas Virginia, were in full rollout. The info the city provided was a stack about two feet high and all I had was my ARRL magazine. The city has kept everyone notified of the BPL progress including local HAMMs, all local emergency departments, as well as the Illinois State Police. I called my friend to help answer some of your questions and here is what I got.

The City Of Princeton is doing the test phase, but will not be the provider. If the test goes well and the local provider decides to do a full rollout, than the city will put up and maintain the equipment purchased by the provider. The city has a 96-fiber backbone that runs through the town. This offers existing businesses and any future companies that may come here with an unlimited bandwidth for communication. At approximately 40 locations around the town they will tie the fiber into a media converter that is tied to a CU that injects the signal onto the electric distribution grid. At every transformer (approx. 1500 feet) an RU will bring the signal to the low voltage services feeding the homes and businesses that don’t need a direct fiber connection. The RUs also “repeat” the signal back onto the distribution system. In the homes the user will be able to plug into any outlet with an NT, which will tie the signal to their computer via an Ethernet port. The company that supplies the equipment is Main.net http://www.mainnet-plc.com/ . Main.net notches any frequencies in the spectrum the BPL uses that are also used by others. This is how they keep from interfering with others.



I will keep you all informed

[ka5s]

Quote[/b] (kb9ylu @ Feb. 07 2005,10:03)]... The company that supplies the equipment is Main.net #http://www.mainnet-plc.com/ #. Main.net notches any frequencies in the spectrum the BPL uses that are also used by others. This is how they keep from interfering with others.
Most of the information you've been provided describes any BPL system and could come as well from a marketing flier as an engineering description. Can you find out more?

The Manassas system was indeed interfering; see
http://www.target-eng.com/bpl/wwv5m_101704.wav
http://www.target-eng.com/bpl/40m20_101704.wav

Unfortunately, Main Net systems aren't known for being especially quiet. Unless they've changed their modulation scheme or were not using frequencies you were listening to I think it likely no data was being passed at the time.

Here's what one Amateur has had to say about a Main Net system:
Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum, which Main.net uses, has a very "thin" power density in idle mode--i.e. no active users on the system. We "experienced" and measured very little interference under those conditions (2% loading or less). There were noise pulses there that
were about 40-60db above the noise floor, but they were very thin across the band so they didn't cause much interference.


Also check out
http://www.target-eng.com/bpl/bpl.htm
and
Description:
"The following audio files illustrate the Main.net BPL interference/signals observed in Rochester, MN on 3.924 MHz and 15 MHz WWV with and without BPL transfers active. These recordings were made on September 7, 2004 with notching active on the ham bands ... reflect only a single active user/download."
http://www.arrl.org/~ehare/bpl/video/3924+noXfer_sm.wav
http://www.arrl.org/~ehare/bpl/video/3924+xfer_sm.wav
http://www.arrl.org/~ehare/bpl/video/WWV+BPL_sm.wav
http://www.arrl.org/~ehare/bpl/video/WWV_no_BPL_sm.wav



Cortland
KA5S

[K0RGR]

Yes, Main.net has lots of documentation to "prove" that they have no interference problems. Yet, every installation that we've heard of, including the one they tested here in Rochester, generated lots of QRM.

It is also extremely susceptible to incoming interference from hams. We found that 5 watts, particularly on 17 meters, did a good job, but most any band will do.
CB should work. You can read Mannassas' experience with that.

Most likely, there is little or no traffic on the network. With no load, there is very little QRM. But when the net gets busy, the QRM builds. We saw a pretty steady S6 signal in the notched ham bands when driving the net with one active PC doing tests with www.dslreports.com continuously. Outside the ham bands, the QRM was much stronger, and 30 meters was not notched at all. You can hear some recording at www.rarchams.org . That is what a Main.net system sounds like. Also see the recodings from Mannassas - same stuff. Mannassas definitely has Main.net 'Phase II' gear, ours was a mix of 'Phase I' and 'Phase II' I think.

When the net was busy, you could hear it from a distance of a couple blocks here. You won't hear it from the other side of town. The trial here was conveniently set up around a church parking lot, so we could sit in the lot about the same distance we'd be from the power lines as our antennas would be if we lived near them. We also drove up and down the nearby streets looking for 'hotspots'.

Have you been to the ARRL website?
ARRL video/audio recordings (http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/aud-vid.html)

You'll find recordings of different flavors of BPL - lots of Main.net - from around the world here.

If you're serious, you can contact me offline for additional information.

[K0RGR]

By the way, those of us hoping that BPL would die a natural death due to being unprofitable were dealt a blow this week, when Duke Power became the first to ask their state's PUC to have all the ratepayers pick up the tab for implementing BPL. If the power companies can get us all to build it, maintain it, subsidize it, and then pay for it again in subscription fees, it becomes a "no brainer". Can you say "Windfall Profits"?

Better send your dues to AMSAT just in case. HF is not looking real healthy.

[n9lya]

Quote[/b] (kb9ylu @ Feb. 06 2005,05:11)]I checked about cedar rapids iowa and it seems they incorporated a wireless system that did NOT work.the system in princeton il has 13 bpl boxes 1 at every transformer that is being used for the trial,and there are subscribers to the bpl online as we speak.Am i mad at the arrl well no,but they made it sound so bad i was ready to get rid of my gear and the spokesman (Steve Gross) that arrl had here was a misimformed confused gentleman.I will keep you informed if this goes city wide and what the results are.I have stood under the bpl boxes and heard no interference.
I think it is more that the Potential is so great for the Power Companies to implement their systems on the cheap side that interference will be the norm.. Maybe someone in their oganization is a HAM and helped engineer in the needed equipment.. to Make it work without interference...??? who knows.. Or maybe you just got lucky... And have not had any yet...

73 jerry

[kc8zum]

I have written an article on the BPL that has been deployed here in Cincinnati. #As you will see by reading the article BPL is far from perfect. #I also have many pictures of the BPL equipment on my site.

http://www.danielwoodie.com/aboutbpl.htm

I have been unable to find any interference eminating from the BPL here in Cincinnati. #The system here is fully operational and they are selling service ( http://www.current.net ). #They have over 5000 subscribers last I was told so there is plenty of data on the lines. #I set up a G5RV parallell to the power lines carrying the BPL within 25 ft of them and could not identify any interference on any band (10-160M, 6M, 2M, 440) I used my mobile to detect 2M and 440 and my handheld for 6M. #I have many pictures of the BPL equipment used here on my web site http://www.danielwoodie.com/bpl.htm

73,
Dan
KC8ZUM

[KD7WHQ]

One correction for your article.
DSL is measured in Kbps. I have a 512 Kbps connection here, even though I pay for a 256 http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif No complaint.
Would that I could get a 2 MBps connection for the price http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

That's getting into T3 territory..

[K0RGR]

Dan, my understanding of the technology being used in your area is that the medium voltage distribution is not actually done at HF - it is all above 30 Mhz. - hence you should not be hearing anything. #This is tremendously different than the stuff being used in Princeton, and what was tested here and in Mannassas, which puts HF signals on the overhead lines.

The wiring into the house is done using Homeplug, which does operate at HF, but Homeplug worked with ARRL during development of their equipment, and they do notch the ham bands by 30 dB. The way it was put to me was that if you had it in your home, or if your neighbor had it in his, you would notice it.

Our power comany is currently considering the system in your area for deployment here. We're waiting to see what happens. Your vendor won't do a trial here, because it is "proven technology" - they want big bux up front and a complete rollout.

Do they have 5000 subscribers, or have they "passed 5,000 homes?". That's actually the pitch used in one BPL implementation.