Radio Modification

[ka5s]

Quote[/b] (KD5MFA @ Feb. 03 2005,23:56)]modified or "opened up" so that I can use them on the fire service frequencies also. If so, can someone direct me to a technician that does this kind of modification.
Possible, yes, legal, no. Is it done? Uh huh. Can a department lose its license over it? Yup. Could a comms shop get in trouble for doing the mods? Sure could. Chance of getting caught? Pretty low -- if you don't post it on the Internet!

Cortland
KA5S

[KB3LIX]

Sorry to tell you Mike, but operation on the local fire, police, sheriff frequencies require a radio that is "Type accepted" for operation in that particular service.

The units that you mention are NOT Type Accepted and CANNOT legally be used on commercial frequencies.
Several public service agencies around the country have been BUSTED by the commission in the last several years for trying to save a few bucks by using modified ARS equipment.

One speciffically that I remember was the Philadelphia Fire Dept, they tried using modified ARS equipment and ended up paying a HEFTY fine as a result.

Sorry, but it's "The Law"

To others out there, If I am WRONG, please correct me.

73
bill # #KB3LIX

[n9gkh]

You might consider trading some of that existing gear in for late used commercial multichannel / multiband equipment that IS type accepted. How many total frequencies or pairs do you really need? Most will tune or program into the ham bands with out appreciable loss to either the commercial segment or the amateur segment. Ask your Radio shop tech about models: Bendix, Ericksen, Kenwood, Icom, Vertex (Yaesu commercial) to name a few of the brands available. You will find that the prices are not always way out of line and frequently the commercial equipment is more immune to intermod produts and have additional features.
Good Luck. #
Ron AB9KI/N9GKH

PS: As others suggest, please don't use your ham gear for Public Saftey. It threatens our very existence as amateurs everytime some one is caught.
That applies to the HF SSB boater that buys and uses a non type accepted or marine use certified rig on HF too! #
(for marine band use) http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[KC9ECI]

Mike-

It's OK to listen, but not transmit. Don't waste your time with a mod that in all probabilty, you will never be able to use legally.

[W0LC]

I would recommend getting a handheld scanner. I wouldn't recommend modifying an amateur HT to transmit there.

[W5HTW]

This is not finger pointing toward anyone. If we don't ask the question, we may not know. Part 97, amateur radio rules, does not cover Public Safety and business band, so unless someone reads those rules he or she may could think the use of ham radio equipment on non-ham frequencies is acceptable. In a word, "NO."

There is, though, a new tendency in ham radio to ignore the rules, and to 'do it anyway.' As someone else noted, this could eventually lead us to type accepted equipment for ham radio, and take away the ham's freedom to modify, build, design, etc., radio equipment. The FCC has its eyes open for abuse, and if abuse becomes a significant factor (and it has grown quite a bit in recent years) they could change the playing field.

For those in volunteer fire work, or volunteer medical work, if a radio is needed, the agency to which they volunteer should supply it. That's the bottom line. If you need a radio, get one from the qualifying agency. Nothing wrong with a scanner, or even using a ham radio as a scanning radio to listen, but when you transmit on it, on the PS bands (or anywhere else that isn't a ham band) you are risking your license, the radio license of the agency you are serving, very extensive fines for that agency, and the future of ham radio.

Ask your volunteer coordinator to supply you with a radio that is acceptable in that service.

Thanks

Ed

[KC9FRS]

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[K0RGR]

Now, it is possible and legal to purchase a used, type-accepted commercial HT, and have it programmed for both the public safety frequencies and some of your local ham repeaters. You can use a type-accepted radio on the ham bands, no problem. You just can't go the other way. We have a young ham in the next town with similar needs and uses nothing but old Motorola gear for ham radio. You need to find a radio that will cover the ham band as well as the commercial band of interest, and pay a commercial radio shop the non-trivial price of programming it - don't forget to have them set the PL tones and repeater offsets.

And, as HTW says, this should only be done with the knowledge and permission of the agencies involved.

[n5tjd]

As others have said, you can't use an Amateur Radio to transmit on PS frequencies, but you CAN get a radio that is type accepted for the PS frequencies and use it in the Amateur Radio bands. If you are trying to minimize equipement by having one radio that can transmit on both, that would be the best bet and it is legal.

[K9STH]

You need to download 47 CFR Part 90 from the FCC website. This is the section that concerns most of the land mobile services.

Therein you will note that all equipment used must be type-accepted. Amateur radio equipment, just by the fact that you can "dial up" a frequency, cannot meet type acceptance even if the other "technical" specifications are met (and they are not met in virtually every case).

You can lose your amateur radio operator's license for the rest of your life, you can be fined up to $11,000 per day per radio if you use non-type accepted units, you can be imprisoned (means go to jail), you can have your equipment confiscated, the department can be fined if you use non-type accepted equipment, the department can lose their license, and that is just a start!

As such, I definitely recommend obtaining an older type accepted unit and "play by the rules". Frankly, my amateur radio operator's license, and my commercial operator's license, are way too valuable to me to take any known chance of losing them. I would think that it would be the same for you.

Glen, K9STH

[ai4ep]

So if a local VOLUNTEER fire department used icom 228h & 229 45 watt 2 meter mobiles..and older yeasu ft - 411 HT s .....modified to transmit on THEIR frequencies... that THEY would be breaking the FCC law ?

[ka5s]

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Feb. 04 2005,10:53)]So if a local VOLUNTEER fire department used icom 228h & 229 #45 watt 2 meter mobiles..and older yeasu ft - 411 HT s .....modified to transmit on THEIR frequencies... that #THEY would be breaking the FCC #law ?
Oh yeah, sure they would.

It used to be that Part 90 radios could be programmed from the front panel. The Commission found that a lot of folks were simply using what they thought was a vacant channel. (License? we don' need no steenking license!) So nowadays, these radios are progammable only in the shop. That's one reason Amateur rigs aren't type-accepted for Part 90 use. Then too, Part 90 has stricter technical standards. The radios end up being better, and in some cases a lot better, than our rigs.

An Amateur who uses his ham rig where type acceptance in another service is required, he is breaking the law. The agency which knows of this, and allows it, they are breaking the law, too, because the license holder is responsible for all units being operated lawfully.

Disclainer: This is not legal advice. For that, go to a lawyer. I am NOT a lawyer.


Cortland
KA5S

[K9STH]

EP:

Just talk to the Philadelphia Fire Department about trying to save a little money by purchasing amateur handheld equipment and then programming them for the fire frequencies. It cost the City of Philadelphia MANY dollars in fines for doing this. The City thought that since they were a "government agency" they could pretty much do what they wanted. Wrong!

Glen, K9STH

[W7DJM]

From where I sit it's not JUST the law, either.

A nameless friend is envolved in a small town volunteer work, and even after asking me, "they" got ahold of some 2 meter rigs through "a friend."

Didn't take them long to discover that it's very, very easy to get the radio "off into never never land" on some VFO/split/memory/menu---you all know the drill, so consider this--

You're out somewhere, maybe you get hurt, maybe you REALLY NEED that radio, and someone else gets ahold of it and bumps the wrong "button."

At least on legit public service radios, about all you would do is get onto the wrong channel. With an amateur rig, especially one that has been "opened up," you don't know where you might land.

[ai4ep]

So you have all this information that tell you " NOT TO DO IT ".

But some one out there, reading all these posts, has the idea in his/her head. They problably WILL GO AHEAD & DO IT...after all...it is every one ELSE who gets caught --- right ? :rock:

[kj5t]

A guy last night got alittle hotheaded with me over a conversation on 2 meters last night. He was talking about getting him a new 10 meter rig modified for 11 meters so he could talk to the truckers and keep them safe on the road. I told him that "I believe that it would be against FCC rules for him to using 11 meters from a 10 meter rig". He said " I have to get on out of here"..

Of course I do know the rules.. or so I think.. It is okay to modify commerical gear for Amatuer Radio Use.. BUT you may no longer use that gear on the Public Safty/Business frequencies. It is against the law to modifty amateur gear to transmit on anything other than amateur radio frequencies. Even if you don't transmit.. I believe the modification is still against the law.

[ka5s]

Quote[/b] (KD5OWO @ Feb. 04 2005,22:34)]Of course I do know the rules.. or so I think.. #It is okay to modify commerical gear for Amatuer Radio Use.. BUT you may no longer use that gear on the Public Safty/Business frequencies. #It is against the law to modifty amateur gear to transmit on anything other than amateur radio frequencies. #Even if you don't transmit.. I believe the modification is still against the law.
You were correct about his modifed 10 meter rig but not because we can't modify our rigs. We can. Our licenses allow us to do so, among other things. The license carries an obligation not to operate modified equipment in a manner contrary to law.

Legitimate reason for modifications include MARS (I've been a member since 1966, on and off) and transverters; VHF and above bands often require a tunable IF to cover 4 or more MHz and a lot of unmodifed Amateur gear doesn't do that. Modified Amateur transmitters may be used as wide band signal sources,too; I've used a modified IC-706 to test telephone equipment susceptibility. Rough and ready, yes, but there when I needed it.

Where your friend (?) would go wrong is by operating on 11 meters. That turns his equipment from lawfully modifed Amateur equipment into non-certified CB gear, a violation of Part 95.

(Usual disclaimer, I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, etc.)

Cortland
KA5S

[AE6QE]

One suggestion to look at, would be to pick up some old Icom H16s or U16s, depending on your needs. They are wonderful little commercial radios that can be field programmed to commercial or amateur uses, and have the same feel of the Icom 02/04 series.

They are old radios though...so no DCS.

Rickey/AE6QE

[ai4ep]

sooo..let me see if I read this correct ---

Even with a general / extra class amateur license..a person can NOT use a " ranger / galaxy, etc " modified radio in their personal vehicle legally ? If that person wants a 10 meter rig for their personal use in their personal vehicle, and also have a CB rig...legally they must have 2 SEPERATE RIGS...one for cb..the other for exclusive 10 meter use http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif? Is that correct, or not ?

Please clarify in the simpliest layman terms available.

inquiring minds want / need to know

[N5LRZ]

RE ai4ep

CB radios are "Type Accepted". Ham radios do not have type acceptance.

NO, absolutely not, nada, forget it, no way jose to what your friend (or yourelf) wants to do. And to the question of class of license, License Class is irrelevant. Its just flat out illegal for ALL AMATEUR CLASS licenses to use a non type accepted radios on CB frequencies. Tell him to get a cheap CB radio.

So sayith the FCC, the giver of the law.

[K9STH]

OWO:

It "depends" on just what you consider "modification" as to whether or not a type accepted radio has its type-acceptance voided when "converted" to amateur radio.

If all that is required is either reprogramming or recrystalling (you can retune the unit) then the unit is still type accepted. If you modify it by removing turns from a coil then it is no longer type accepted. If you add capacitance to the tuned circuits that are the same as the unit would have in it when type-accepted for the particular band range then the unit is still type accepted. If you do anything to the unit that is different from the configuration when it is type-accepted then it is no longer type-accepted.

I have often used type-accepted equipment for Business Radio Service operation in which I have programmed amateur radio frequencies. This is perfectly acceptable and allows me to legally use a mobile on both amateur and commercial frequencies.


EP:

You cannot use the same radio for both Class "D" Citizen's Radio Service and amateur radio. In fact, the FCC recently cited 11 amateurs for doing just that. If you want to take a chance on a fine, having your equipment confiscated, being imprisoned, losing your amateur radio operator's license for the rest of your life, and so on, then definitely use your amateur radio transceiver on 11 meters. But, if you wish to remain an amateur radio operator then I definitely suggest not doing so.

Glen, K9STH

[KC9EOG]

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Feb. 05 2005,08:03)]sooo..let me see if I read this correct ---

Even with a general / extra class amateur license..a person can NOT use a " ranger / galaxy, etc " modified radio in their personal vehicle legally ? #If that person wants a 10 meter rig for their personal use in their personal vehicle, and also have a CB rig...legally they must have 2 SEPERATE RIGS...one for cb..the other for exclusive 10 meter use http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif? #Is that correct, or not ?

Please clarify in the simpliest layman terms available.
11/10 meter in one rig= http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

seperate 11 /10 meter rigs= Legal and nice http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

But you knew that didn't you? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KC0OFZ]

In a nutshell, is modifying ham radio equipment illegal? NO it can be done and the FCC gives permission to do just that with homebrew and the like, however, it is ILLEGAL to use them out of band.
Actually some of the mods (like the ones that allow 60 meter operation on some rigs in HF) are fun and it is a learning experience with the radio to work on it but just DO NOT use them out of band!
Having the modified radio is not illegal, using it improperly (out of band) is.
KCØOFZ

[ai4ep]

THANKS FOR THE FAST RESPONSES !!

So, in simple terms...if you wish to be a GENERAL / EXTRA class amateur radio operator and use 10/11 meters while in your vehicle --- then --- to be LEGAL you will need one rig for 10 meter AMATEUR radio use &one rig for CB use. SEPERATE RIGS .

Thanks...several folks will disagree with it, but it appears that individual rigs for both bands is the LEGAL way to go.

---however, most folks will think " heck, it is just one rig in all these thousands of vehicles across this great nation, what are the odds the FCC will catch lil ole me ? " Well, they can !

But THANKS for the fast answers...it IS appreciated !!

[N1XHF]

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Feb. 04 2005,09:03)]sooo..let me see if I read this correct ---

Even with a general / extra class amateur license..a person can NOT use a " ranger / galaxy, etc " modified radio in their personal vehicle legally ? If that person wants a 10 meter rig for their personal use in their personal vehicle, and also have a CB rig...legally they must have 2 SEPERATE RIGS...one for cb..the other for exclusive 10 meter use http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif? Is that correct, or not ?

Please clarify in the simpliest layman terms available.

inquiring minds want / need to know
Looks like you will have to get rid of that freebanding radio you have been using for both CB and 10 meters.

And to think you should know better http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[ai4ep]

I aint got no galaxy...used to own a ranger 2950 but I sold it to a general class amateur...had the option of buying a realistic htx-10 ( check on other thread for me asking for mod info...with NO answers..it cant be modded )...so...some day I might get a 10 meter rig or use my 706 in my vehicle, but I aint too eager to put a $ 700- $900 radio in my vehicle...)...some day ( maybe ) but not today !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[N1XHF]

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Feb. 04 2005,14:05)]I aint got no galaxy...used to own a ranger 2950 but I sold it to a general class amateur...had the option of buying a realistic htx-10 ( check on other thread for me asking for mod info...with NO answers..it cant be modded )...so...some day I might get a 10 meter rig or use my 706 in my vehicle, but I aint too eager to put a $ 700- $900 radio in my vehicle...)...some day ( maybe ) but not today !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Don't blame you, just a little on the expensive side for a moble.

[KC9ECI]

Besides, you're better off driving than playing on the radio when you're on the road anyway...unless you're a passenger, then playing with the rig might not be so bad.

[ai4ep]

I dont see why I can not use my rig while mobile...I see other folks doing --

1) driving
2) talking on cell phone
3) eating sausage & biscuit
4) drinking coffee - soft drinks - alcohol
5) chatting with passengers
6) reading newspaper
7) got the " thump - thump " coming from bass speakers

so why can I not just use my rig & talk & drive ?

but I would rather arrive at point B after leaving point A than talk to Alaska on 10 meter ssb with 5 watts or less !!

Maybe some one who aint said nuthin will learn sumthing from reading all these posts ...I shore hope so !!


btw...I just can not see putting a $700 - $900 radio in a $300 vehicle ( with a tankful of gas )...!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KC9ECI]

I'm sorry to hear you're driving around in a Ford.

[KC9ANQ]

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Feb. 05 2005,11:24)]THANKS FOR THE FAST RESPONSES !!

So, in simple terms...if you wish to be a GENERAL / EXTRA class amateur radio operator and use 10/11 meters while in your vehicle --- then --- to be LEGAL you will need one #rig for 10 meter AMATEUR radio use &one rig for #CB use. #SEPERATE RIGS .
IF your 2950 OR your Galaxy radio is modified to TX on 11 meter you can still use it on 10 meter as an amateur operator BUT YOU CANNOT use it on 11 meter except to RX ONLY

IN FACT some of the 2950DX radios will open the TX and RX from 24 MHz to 32 MHz which is legal! You can ONLY TX on the amateur bands. That is where one should be cautious, just because you can hear someone there does not mean they are suppose to be talking there. KNOW YOUR AMATEUR BAND LIMITS for TX and do not TX outside of them.

I have a Cobra 148 that has been modified for operation in the 10 meter band, and more. BUT I can ONLY TX IN THE 10 METER band with it legally now, I can RX anywhere the radio will RX. EVEN though it was a 11 meter CB at one time it is now NOT type accepted so I cannot go down to the 11 meter section and talk with it because it is not legal. But in the same sense I bought a Cobra 148 at a church sale and it is 11 meter only.
Same radio, one modified one not, I can use the NON-MODIFIED radio all day long on 11 meter.

It all boils down to IF the radio can TX on ANY amateur band YOU CANNOT use it on CB legally.

I to am also sorry you are driving a Ford,,,,,,, http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[ai4ep]

Who told you folks I was / am driving / pushing a FORD ? Was it THAT obvious ?

Oh well.....(sigh ) .

[kj5t]

STH:

Thanks for the reply. I have seen people do different mods, some require taking a part out or adding a part, others are just software mods. I have heard people say doing this is against the law, and others say its all right. So thanks for helping me clear that up.

I personally don't have a reason to use the PS bands, but I have considered getting a modified motorola radio to work on 2 meters. I have a friend in Dallas who does software mods for hams. He programs all the local repeaters in the radios, and does not charge very much. Since when I get a car (hopefully this summer) I will want some form of a rig (not to use while driving, but they are good to have.. and anyways you have to have a rig in your car in Texas to qualify for ham plates).. Not sure if I will have the money for very much. Maybe I will find an old 2 meter down at a ham fest. Of course I would like to go HF mobile, but it will take awhile before I could invest in that.

Maybe I can use a modified CB for 10 meter AM QRP.. I might find SOMEBODY.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[KL7FZ]

You can mod any radio to do anything you want, given enough parts, time, and expertise.

Why I just modified my ICOM IC-751 into the New ICOM IC-7800.
Took some work getting all the extra controls on the front panel. Tight fit. Hi!!

#Now to turn the old FT-101 into the new FT-9000.
#I had better get some schematics.
#
# http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

#KL7FZ

[KC0NBW]

i turned 2 hw101s and a tempo 1 into a yaesu 560dx once! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[wd5kca]

Quote[/b] (KL7FZ @ Feb. 07 2005,13:36)]You can mod any radio to do anything you want, given enough parts, time, and expertise.

Why I just modified my ICOM IC-751 into the New ICOM IC-7800.
Took some work getting all the extra controls on the front panel. Tight fit. Hi!!

Now to turn the old FT-101 into the new FT-9000.
I had better get some schematics.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

KL7FZ
Please write an article on this and submit it to 73 for publication.

[ad5st]

Quote[/b] (KL7FZ @ Feb. 07 2005,14:36)]You can mod any radio to do anything you want, given enough parts, time, and expertise.

<snip>
Does the reverse modification process work too?

I have a Yaesu FT-8000 that I'd like to modify into a KW-1 and 75A-3 (or perhaps a 30K-1/310A/75A-1).

[ai4ep]

..........so how does some one turn this COBRA 19 PLUS cb radio into a 2 meter rig ?

Or is it pretty close to being one already ?