Refarm the bands [Archive]

af2cw

02-03-2005, 07:40 AM

Quote[/b] (wd0ct @ Feb. 02 2005,21:00)]Screw code versus no code. The real issue is when the fcc does away with the code requirement, the hf bands will be filled with techs and novices needing and wanting to use phone.

They won't give a dam* about cw or psk31 [hf email].

This will put a massive strain on the already over crowded phone bands.

The solution is obvious. Give cw/digital the bottom 25Khz of each band and the rest to phone modes.

Problem solved. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
No problem, cw ops will just operate where they usually
operate. Problem solved http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

ae4fa

02-03-2005, 11:10 AM

Quote[/b] ]when the fcc does away with the code requirement, the hf bands will be filled with techs and novices needing and wanting to use phone.

They won't give a dam* about cw or psk31
You are almost absolutely correct. But it is "IF," not "WHEN."

As for the rest, you are dead-on. The vast majority of NCTs have no interest in how radio works, experimenting with digital modes, advancing their communication skills, or contributing to the advancement of amateur radio.

The just wanna jack their jaws . . .

But it ain't gonna happen. I don't think the FCC will fall for ARRL's faulty logic, which runs something like this:

The phone bands are overcrowded, so we need to expand them by 25KHz or so - and then nearly double the population using those frequencies by giving - without additional testing - new privileges to NCTs.

Yup, that'll solve the problem . . .

KC0KBH

02-03-2005, 01:13 PM

No, I am an avid user of digital modes, and some of them need their space! One thing I still don't get, is why SSTV is in the phone portion of the bands.

KC9ECI

02-03-2005, 01:17 PM

Quote[/b] (KC0KBH @ Feb. 03 2005,07:13)]No, I am an avid user of digital modes, and some of them need their space! #One thing I still don't get, is why SSTV is in the phone portion of the bands.
So when you're done sending your image, you can switch back over to phone and talk about it.

kd7eze

02-03-2005, 01:32 PM

If an when the FCC drops the code requirement, I won't be in any hurry to navigate over to HF. What with all the bandhogging contesters, people like Gerritson and Baxter, and the insane cost of current HF rigs. If the FCC does ever give me the privelege of talking on HF, they'll have to give me a rig to operate on as well, with filters installed to block out contests and idiots. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

KC9ECI

02-03-2005, 01:49 PM

It really isn't all as bad as that. Gerritson is on VHF, unlicensed, and I'm guessing, not long for the free world, and Baxter takes up such a tiny percentage of the spectrum that I'm surprised people pay any attention to him...that's what he wants after all. If no one responded to him, he'd soon enough get bored.
Contests don't occupy all of the band all of the time. I shared a lot of your opinon, until I got on HF and played around on it for a while. There is more spectrum to be used than there are hams using it most days.
As far as the FCC 'giving' you HF privs, I hope they don't ever just 'give' them out, I'd still like to see people have to earn them even if it's with a simple multiple guess test. People tend to take things that are given for granted and cherish the things they have to work for or earn on their own.

K8YS

02-03-2005, 02:25 PM

Quote[/b] (kd7eze @ Feb. 03 2005,08:32)]If an when the FCC drops the code requirement, I won't be in any hurry to navigate over to HF. What with all the bandhogging contesters, people like Gerritson and Baxter, and the insane cost of current HF rigs. If the FCC does ever give me the privelege of talking on HF, they'll have to give me a rig to operate on as well, with filters installed to block out contests and idiots. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
and that is why they make CB radios

k6pme

02-03-2005, 02:40 PM

Quote[/b] (kd7eze @ Feb. 03 2005,06:32)]If an when the FCC drops the code requirement, I won't be in any hurry to navigate over to HF. What with all the bandhogging contesters, people like Gerritson and Baxter, and the insane cost of current HF rigs. If the FCC does ever give me the privelege of talking on HF, they'll have to give me a rig to operate on as well, with filters installed to block out contests and idiots. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
The other day I was tuning around 20m with a new antenna I just made and heard only 3 qso's in progress. It wasn't the homebrew antenna or a closed band. From central Ca. I was picking up 5, 7, 8, and 9 lands. There was plenty of room. In the 18 months I have had HF receive capabilities I never once heard K1MAN or an idiot on the air. NEVER.

Yes, the cost of HF rigs might be kind of high but if you shop around you can get one for a reasonable cost. I have about $1500 invested in my HF rig but that includes an FT-897, the power supply, an 'antenna tuner', a pretty good SWR meter and some coax. Antenna's I make myself and have NEVER cost me more than 25 or 30 dollars.

And yes, I have filters to tune out contest's and 'idiots'. It's called a VFO.

From what you say, you have never been on HF. Try it, you might like it. Upgrading is not so difficult. The study material is not any more difficult than the Tech and code is doable. With the accomodations the VE's are able to make even the deaf can pass it.

The key to it is the mindset. If you WANT to then it can be done. If you DON'T want to then thats ok too as far as I'm concerned. Thats your business, not mine.

But until you at least try it, quit knocking it.

W5HTW

02-03-2005, 03:33 PM

Quote[/b] (KG6QQL @ Feb. 03 2005,07:40)]Quote[/b] (kd7eze @ Feb. 03 2005,06:32)]If an when the FCC drops the code requirement, I won't be in any hurry to navigate over to HF. What with all the bandhogging contesters, people like Gerritson and Baxter, and the insane cost of current HF rigs. If the FCC does ever give me the privelege of talking on HF, they'll have to give me a rig to operate on as well, with filters installed to block out contests and idiots. ???

The key to it is the mindset. If you WANT to then it can be done. If you DON'T want to then thats ok too as far as I'm concerned. Thats your business, not mine.
The "Mindset" appears to be "Give Give Give it to me."

Ed

kb9lor

02-03-2005, 03:52 PM

Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ Feb. 03 2005,08:33)]Quote[/b] (KG6QQL @ Feb. 03 2005,07:40)]Quote[/b] (kd7eze @ Feb. 03 2005,06:32)]If an when the FCC drops the code requirement, I won't be in any hurry to navigate over to HF. What with all the bandhogging contesters, people like Gerritson and Baxter, and the insane cost of current HF rigs. If the FCC does ever give me the privelege of talking on HF, they'll have to give me a rig to operate on as well, with filters installed to block out contests and idiots. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

The key to it is the mindset. If you WANT to then it can be done. If you DON'T want to then thats ok too as far as I'm concerned. Thats your business, not mine.
The "Mindset" appears to be "Give Give Give it to me."

Ed
Ed and then once a fella does go to general w/the 5 wpm you and all the rest WILL still find some way to slam them anyways...so WHY would they make the effort?? I usually don't post but I am so sick of seeing everyones gripe about the NCT's, yep, bet your butt I am one and proud of it too! So quit knocking ALL or just one NCT, be the better person for once, you and all the rest of the crowd need to just chill, and hey even you NCT'S need to chill out also, you know who you are, quit stirring the pot, jeeze....get a grip,life,love,whatever....sorry about the rant Ed..I do feel better, you be sure to have a nice day, and no I don't have that gimme attitude.

Cheers!

N8CPA

02-03-2005, 03:54 PM

The mindset also appears to be, "I'll be willing and able to afford a multiband, mutimode HF rig when I'm currently not willing to buy a multiband, multimode VHF/UHF rig," which could, with proper use, fulfill many of their DX dreams under current privileges.

K3UD

02-03-2005, 03:56 PM

Quote[/b] (wd0ct @ Feb. 03 2005,00:05)]Troll? I don't think so.

Look at k3ud's numbers and you can see what will happen.
Yes, the numbers are declining and there is a lot of conjecture out there as to why. Over 20,000 new hams became licensed in 2004 but it did not keep up.

My theory is that there are a lot of Techs and Novices who, for whatever reasons, are not renewing the license. The drop off began in may 2003 which coincided with the first licensed NCTs reaching the end of their grace period. Unfortunately, it seems to accelerating of late. I am also willing to bet that there are a sizeable number of Silent Keys in the FCC's gross numbers.

I posted the latest numbers 3 days ago. Looking at the numbers this morning we are down another 188 or about 63 per day. That annualizes at 23,000 per year if it holds at that level. (yes, I know the three day sample is too small to extrapulate) One trend that I am seeing is that the general class is declining 3 times faster than the Extra class is growing. However it is a recent trend and I don't think we should make too much of it at this point.

Will the bands become so crowded if the new Novice or Beginners license becomes reality? Who knows. I tend to think that IF Novices and Techs initially populate that class, we will see some increase in activity, but it seems to me that the overwhelming number of licensees in these classes are not active and most likely would not use the new privileges.

For many reasons I do not see the FCC instantly grandfathering either Novices or Techs to General without further testing and I still predict that the 5WPM code test will still be in place the the General and Extra, but this is just my opinion.

However, IF the new Beginner class proves popular and sparks interest in those who are presently inactive as well attracting good numbers of new hams, we will certainly need to take a look at how he bandwidth is allocated.

73
George
K3UD

K7JBQ

02-03-2005, 05:47 PM

Quote[/b] (K3UD @ Feb. 03 2005,08:56)]Quote[/b] (wd0ct @ Feb. 03 2005,00:05)]Troll? I don't think so.

Look at k3ud's numbers and you can see what will happen.
Yes, the numbers are declining and there is a lot of conjecture out there as to why. Over 20,000 new hams became licensed in 2004 but it did not keep up.

My theory is that there are a lot of Techs and Novices who, for whatever reasons, are not renewing the license. The drop off began in may 2003 which coincided with the first licensed NCTs reaching the end of their grace period. Unfortunately, it seems to accelerating of late. I am also willing to bet that there are a sizeable number of Silent Keys in the FCC's gross numbers.

I posted the latest numbers 3 days ago. Looking at the numbers this morning we are down another 188 or about 63 per day. That annualizes at 23,000 per year if it holds at that level. (yes, I know the three day sample is too small to extrapulate) One trend that I am seeing is that the general class is declining 3 times faster than the Extra class is growing. However it is a recent trend and I don't think we should make too much of it at this point.

Will the bands become so crowded if the new Novice or Beginners license becomes reality? Who knows. I tend to think that IF Novices and Techs initially populate that class, we will see some increase in activity, but it seems to me that the overwhelming number of licensees in these classes are not active and most likely would not use the new privileges.

For many reasons I do not see the FCC instantly grandfathering #either Novices or Techs to General without further testing and I still predict that the 5WPM code test will still be in place the the General #and Extra, but this is just my opinion.

However, IF the new Beginner class proves popular and sparks interest in those who are presently inactive as well attracting good numbers of new hams, we will certainly need to take a look at how he bandwidth is allocated.

73
George
K3UD
For all that look at the numbers and see Doomsday, consider:

In the 1930s, there were about 50,000 hams, out of a population of about 120 million. So, one in about 2400 was a ham.

By 1970, there were 250,000 hams and 200 million people. One in 800 was a
ham.

Now, there are 670,000 hams out of 300 million people. One in 450 is a ham.

The sky is falling? Yeah, buddy.

73,
Bill

KC0NBW

02-03-2005, 05:52 PM

Quote[/b] (KC0KBH @ Feb. 03 2005,06:13)]#One thing I still don't get, is why SSTV is in the phone portion of the bands.
because sstv uses audio frequencies and takes up the same amount of spectrum as a voice signal. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

gw4rcm

02-03-2005, 06:03 PM

We also had those scare stories when the UK abolished code, It never happened , CW ops kept to the lower portion of the bands as was usual. and the influx from the old "B" license has not been noticed., by this station.
RCM

kl7aj

02-03-2005, 06:56 PM

Could it be that the best solution to this is simply "More Kilowatts"?

k6pme

02-03-2005, 07:15 PM

Quote[/b] (kb9lor @ Feb. 03 2005,08:52)]Ed and then once a fella does go to general w/the 5 wpm you and all the rest WILL still find some way to slam them anyways...so WHY would they make the effort?? I usually don't post but I am so sick of seeing everyones gripe about the NCT's, yep, bet your butt I am one and proud of it too! So quit knocking ALL or just one NCT, be the better person for once, you and all the rest of the crowd need to just chill, and hey even you NCT'S need to chill out also, you know who you are, quit stirring the pot, jeeze....get a grip,life,love,whatever....sorry about the rant Ed..I do feel better, you be sure to have a nice day, and no I don't have that gimme attitude.

Cheers!
Just for the record.......I have NOTHING against NCT's. Hey, after all, I was one once.

My whole point was DON'T KNOCK HF IF YOUR NOT WILLING TO MAKE THE EFFORT TO GO THERE.

Go for it, search every post I have ever made. NEVER once will you see a post made by me that was in any way derogatory towards a NCT. You will find some subtle post's that would ENCOURAGE someone to upgrade but never a derogatory comment.

k6pme

02-03-2005, 07:19 PM

Quote[/b] (N8CPA @ Feb. 03 2005,08:54)]The mindset also appears to be, "I'll be willing and able to afford a multiband, mutimode HF rig when I'm currently not willing to buy a multiband, multimode VHF/UHF rig," which could, with proper use, fulfill many of their DX dreams under current privileges.
Where is an affordable multi-mode VHF/UHF rig without HF capabilities?

I personally can't see the point in buying a rig that for the same money will give me HF capabilities.

w8wlc

02-03-2005, 08:25 PM

Wow! Lets go one step further, Make the shortwave broadcasters move off 40 meters as well. Really the past week I have been checking band activity any given evening tuning the phone bands with the exception of 75 meters yields a average of 6 SSB conversations and around 20-30 CW QSO's going on in that portion of the band. Whats the problem? 75 meters why give the cesspool a chance to flow further down the band. 80 Meters evenings show a few QSO's going on but everytime I call cq I get a reply. Must be the professional ops use CW and their ears more.

W3MIV

02-03-2005, 09:12 PM

Quote[/b] (gw4rcm @ Feb. 03 2005,14:03)]We also had those scare stories when the UK abolished code, It never happened , CW ops kept to the lower portion of the bands as was usual. and the influx from the old "B" license has not been noticed., by this station.
RCM
And that's probably what will happen here as well, Dennis. But, 'til then, the pot needs stirring...

wd0ct

02-03-2005, 11:13 PM

I think some of you may be missing the point.

Here are k3ud's latest figures:

"These are the number of unexpired FCC ARS
licenses held by individuals on the dates listed:

As of May 14, 2000:

Novice - 49,329
Tech - 205,394
Tech Plus - 128,860
General - 112,677
Advanced - 99,782
Extra - 78,750
Total Tech / Tech+ - 334,254
Total all classes - 674,792

As of January 30, 2005

Novice - 29,449 (-40.03%) (-19,880)
Tech - 265,749*
Tech Plus - 53,046*
General - 137,774 (+22.77%) (+25,097)
Advanced - 77,541 (-22.29%) (-22,241)
Extra - 106,121 (+34.76%) (+27,371)
*Total Tech/TechPlus - 318,795 (-4.62%) (-15,459)
Total All Classes - 669,680

Total all classes (5/14/00) - 674,792
Total all Classes (4/21/03) - 687,860
Total all classes (9/6/04 ) - 674,788
Total all classes (1/30/05) - 669,680
Total loss of 5,112 since 5/14/2000 ( Was 674,792)
Total loss of 5,108 since 9/6/2004 ( Was 674,788)
Total Loss of 18,180 since 4/2003 (all time high of 687,860)

Notes,

For the 5th straight reporting period, all classes except for Extra (gaining 41) declined. There was a net loss of 1,174 licensees in this reporting period which is again the most I have measured since keeping the statistics. We are now averaging a decline of about 1,122 per month since September 04 and 827 per month since the all time high in April of 2003

* Technician and Tech+ are presently being renewed as Technician.

The base totals are from implementation of the then new licensing changes in May 2000. September 6, 2004 is the date I started measuring the changes. The peak number was in April 2003.

73
George
K3UD"

Look at the total number of novice, tech, and tech plus licenses. Compare this total to the total of license classes allowed on hf now.

When the fcc does away with the code requirement these guys will be upgrading to hf in droves.

I see a real problem for the phone bands.

wd0ct

02-03-2005, 11:44 PM

Quote[/b] (w8wlc @ Feb. 03 2005,13:25)]Wow! Lets go one step further, Make the shortwave broadcasters move off 40 meters as well. Really the past week I have been checking band activity any given evening tuning the phone bands with the exception of 75 meters yields a average of 6 SSB conversations and around 20-30 CW QSO's going on in that portion of the band. Whats the problem? 75 meters why give the cesspool a chance to flow further down the band. 80 Meters evenings show a few QSO's going on but everytime I call cq I get a reply. Must be the professional ops use CW and their ears more.
I keep hearing about 75 meters being a cesspool and worse. I don't see it that way at all.

It is vastly cleaned up from what is was in the 80s and is very pleasant to operate. I rarely hear anything to gripe about on that band.

It is the best band for prime time evening qsoes. Even now just try to find a hole to call cq or meet a ham friend for some conversation. Add a couple hundred thousand ops with new hf privileges and it may become the mess some of you think it is now.

The cw/digital part of the band is way under utilized though.

k3ud's numbers do seem to show that we are dying off and or not renewing enough to maintain viable numbers in the hobby down the road. If the trend stays as it is... Well you all are smart enough to know what will happen.

KC9ECI

02-03-2005, 11:45 PM

Quote[/b] (wd0ct @ Feb. 03 2005,17:13)]When the fcc does away with the code requirement these guys will be upgrading to hf in droves.

I see a real problem for the phone bands.
Who say's they're going to?

KA4DPO

02-04-2005, 02:29 AM

OK? What if nothing changed? What if the FCC keeps things just the way they are for the next decade. HuH? What then?

You gonna sell your 2M rig and take up tiddly winks? You gonna keep posting B___ch notes on the web about how the man is keepin you down by forcing you to prove your worth?

How about you get serious. How about learn something and apply it instead of carping about how unfair it is to have to do something you don't want to do and make the rest of us sick in the process.

This is KA4DPO signing off.. It's been fun but enough is enough, I'm a grown up and I don't want to listen to this nonsense anymore.

wd0ct

02-04-2005, 04:30 AM

Quote[/b] (KA4DPO @ Feb. 03 2005,19:29)]OK? What if nothing changed? What if the FCC keeps things just the way they are for the next decade. HuH? What then?

You gonna sell your 2M rig and take up tiddly winks? You gonna keep posting B___ch notes on the web about how the man is keepin you down by forcing you to prove your worth?

How about you get serious. How about learn something and apply it instead of carping about how unfair it is to have to do something you don't want to do and make the rest of us sick in the process.

This is KA4DPO signing off.. It's been fun but enough is enough, I'm a grown up and I don't want to listen to this nonsense anymore.
Who are you talking to? I don't own a 2 meter rig. I've been on hf for years.

I'm not carping about how unfair anything is. I pointed out what is likely to happen when the code requirement is gone.

If the fcc keeps things as is for the next decade, so be it. I will continue to operate the same as I do now.

K3UD

02-04-2005, 04:25 PM

Quote[/b] (K7JBQ @ Feb. 03 2005,12:47)]Quote[/b] (K3UD @ Feb. 03 2005,08:56)]Quote[/b] (wd0ct @ Feb. 03 2005,00:05)]Troll? I don't think so.

Look at k3ud's numbers and you can see what will happen.
Yes, the numbers are declining and there is a lot of conjecture out there as to why. Over 20,000 new hams became licensed in 2004 but it did not keep up.

My theory is that there are a lot of Techs and Novices who, for whatever reasons, are not renewing the license. The drop off began in may 2003 which coincided with the first licensed NCTs reaching the end of their grace period. Unfortunately, it seems to accelerating of late. I am also willing to bet that there are a sizeable number of Silent Keys in the FCC's gross numbers.

I posted the latest numbers 3 days ago. Looking at the numbers this morning we are down another 188 or about 63 per day. That annualizes at 23,000 per year if it holds at that level. (yes, I know the three day sample is too small to extrapulate) One trend that I am seeing is that the general class is declining 3 times faster than the Extra class is growing. However it is a recent trend and I don't think we should make too much of it at this point.

Will the bands become so crowded if the new Novice or Beginners license becomes reality? Who knows. I tend to think that IF Novices and Techs initially populate that class, we will see some increase in activity, but it seems to me that the overwhelming number of licensees in these classes are not active and most likely would not use the new privileges.

For many reasons I do not see the FCC instantly grandfathering #either Novices or Techs to General without further testing and I still predict that the 5WPM code test will still be in place the the General #and Extra, but this is just my opinion.

However, IF the new Beginner class proves popular and sparks interest in those who are presently inactive as well attracting good numbers of new hams, we will certainly need to take a look at how he bandwidth is allocated.

73
George
K3UD
For all that look at the numbers and see Doomsday, consider:

In the 1930s, there were about 50,000 hams, out of a population of about 120 million. So, one in about 2400 was a ham.

By 1970, there were 250,000 hams and 200 million people. One in 800 was a
ham.

Now, there are 670,000 hams out of 300 million people. One in 450 is a ham.

The sky is falling? Yeah, buddy.

73,
Bill
Bill,

I certainly do not see doomsday but I do detect some stagnation, at least as a short term trend.

We have no way of knowing how many of the hams at any time period were active. Just based on what I hear on the bands each day and what I hear or don't hear on the 15 two meter repeaters I scan, It seems that the bands are not nearly as populated as they were in the 60s and 70s. This infers that the persentage of active hams today, in realtion to the overall numbers of those licensed is lower than what it was during the time period mentioned. Just my observation.

I think that the real questions are:

1. Does it really matter if we are losing numbers due to inactive hams letting their license expire?

2. Is it more important to have very large numbers of licensees, maybe half of which are not active, or a smaller number of licensees who are active?

Just a thought.

There are 321,436 licensees who have substantial HF privileges. (I did not include the Tech+ or the Novice). On the air HF activity does not seem to be as high as when we had 200,000 - 250,000 TOTAL hams (including Novice and Tech)

What are we missing?

73
George
K3UD

K0RGR

02-04-2005, 04:42 PM

I think it's time that the U.S. joined the rest of the world and did away with the subbands. Why do we really need them?

If Canada really does implement a no-code license, as seems likely, and if it is a success, our subbands will become a real problem for us, as hundreds of new VA SSB stations flood our digital and CW subbands to get away from the perceived QRM in the U.S. phone band.

The last time I looked, license numbers were growing faster in Europe than they were here, and it appears now that we are experiencing somewhat 'negative growth'. Listening on the bands in Europe last fall showed me that activity seemed much higher there than here. So why do we feel the need for subbands when they don't?

I think it's time to re-examine this whole concept. If we're going to continue the graduated incentive licensing idea, let's base it on something other than frequency/mode restriction - it seems that the rest of the world likes to use power restrictions instead.

K7JBQ

02-04-2005, 05:57 PM

Quote[/b] (K3UD @ Feb. 04 2005,09:25)]We have no way of knowing how many of the hams at any time period were active. Just based on what I hear on the bands each day and what I hear or don't hear on the 15 two meter repeaters I scan, It seems that the bands are not nearly as populated as they were in the 60s and 70s. This infers that the persentage of active hams today, in realtion to the overall numbers of those licensed is lower than what it was during the time period mentioned. Just my observation.

I think that the real questions are:

1. Does it really matter if we are losing numbers due to inactive hams letting their license expire?

2. Is it more important to have very large numbers of licensees, maybe half of which are not active, or a smaller number of licensees who are active?

Just a thought.

There are 321,436 licensees who have substantial HF privileges. (I did not include the Tech+ or the Novice). On the air HF activity does not seem to be as high as when we had 200,000 - 250,000 TOTAL hams (including Novice and Tech)

What are we missing?

73
George
K3UD
George,

I don't disagree with that, but I suspect the sunspot cycle may have something to do with it. And the growing number of hams who live in CC&R hell probably is involved as well.

I do think we lost a lot of "active hams" when the cell phone obviated the "need" for the autopatch, but I'm not sure that was a tragic loss.

73,
Bill

n2nh

02-04-2005, 06:29 PM

Quote[/b] (wd0ct @ Feb. 02 2005,21:00)]Screw code versus no code. The real issue is when the fcc does away with the code requirement, the hf bands will be filled with techs and novices needing and wanting to use phone.

They won't give a dam* about cw or psk31 [hf email].

This will put a massive strain on the already over crowded phone bands.

The solution is obvious. Give cw/digital the bottom 25Khz of each band and the rest to phone modes.

Problem solved. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
<span style='color:red'>Troll.... troll... troll... HOOKED!!</span>

Not really. As a mode, Phone uses more bandwidth than CW. Take all the phone bands and make them CW which is much more spectrum efficient than phone. Give phone the top 25 kHz of each band (except 10 Meter which has more than enough spectrum devoted to phone on the FM repeater part of the band). Now, that's the best than can be expected. Using PSK-31 and CW (and probably Hellschreiber) - more efficient band management - due to more amateurs using less bandwidth per QSO. Just divide it so that anybody using +20 WPM has to use the present Extra part of the band (and have their Extra). That way users that are having trouble at (-) 20 WPM will not be left out when we start sending. Also, all the lower class licenses will still have some incentive to upgrade. Not much of one admittedly, but for those who want to, they will.

Mission Accomplished!

BTW, K3UD, I'd feel disenfranchised if you say that hams aren't getting on the air and it's because they can't pass the code, then you don't even count Tech Plus and Novices? Sorry, that may be convenient but it just doesn't reflect reality.

K3UD

02-04-2005, 10:47 PM

Quote[/b] (n2nh @ Feb. 04 2005,13:29)]Quote[/b] (wd0ct @ Feb. 02 2005,21:00)]Screw code versus no code. The real issue is when the fcc does away with the code requirement, the hf bands will be filled with techs and novices needing and wanting to use phone.

They won't give a dam* about cw or psk31 [hf email].

This will put a massive strain on the already over crowded phone bands.

The solution is obvious. Give cw/digital the bottom 25Khz of each band and the rest to phone modes.

Problem solved. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
<span style='color:red'>Troll.... troll... troll... #HOOKED!!</span>

Not really. #As a mode, Phone uses more bandwidth than CW. #Take all the phone bands and make them CW which is much more spectrum efficient than phone. #Give phone the top 25 kHz of each band (except 10 Meter which has more than enough spectrum devoted to phone on the FM repeater part of the band). #Now, that's the best than can be expected. #Using PSK-31 and CW (and probably Hellschreiber) - more efficient band management - due to more amateurs using less bandwidth per QSO. #Just divide it so that anybody using +20 WPM has to use the present Extra part of the band (and have their Extra). #That way users that are having trouble at (-) 20 WPM will not be left out when we start sending. #Also, all the lower class licenses will still have some incentive to upgrade. #Not much of one admittedly, but for those who want to, they will.

Mission Accomplished!

BTW, K3UD, I'd feel disenfranchised if you say that hams aren't getting on the air and it's because they can't pass the code, then you don't even count Tech Plus and Novices? #Sorry, that may be convenient but it just doesn't reflect reality.
John,

I never said that hams are not getting on the air because they can not pass the code. Please take a look at my post again if you will. I think you might be attributing the wrong post (concerning the code) to me.

I left out the Novice and Tech+ in my numbers comparison in order to show the actual number of those who have substantial HF priviliges and I judged this to be General, Advanced, and Extra. If a Tech+ or Novice is on the air on HF it is either on 10 meters or in the Novice CW sub-bands.

I am in the Novice CW sub-bands quite a bit and enjoy chatting with those who are trying to improve their code speed, or chatting with those who are there like (like I am) to help them along. I usually have QRZ.com up on the computer when I am on the air and from my experience, I rarely see a Novice or Tech+ licensee come up when I query the database for license info of those I am working. #I do that when I am working in theos bands to see if I am actually working a Novice or Tech+.

Yes, there are a few, However, there are most likely many more licensed Novices and Tech+ than there were in the days when the Novice bands were crowded beyond belief, and every night was bedlam on the 40 and 80 meter Novice CW segments.

If they are active on HF, where are they? 10 meter phone? I think some might be there, but again it is kind of rare for me to hear one.

73
George
K3UD

kb9lor

02-05-2005, 09:12 AM

Quote[/b] (KG6QQL @ Feb. 03 2005,12:15)]Quote[/b] (kb9lor @ Feb. 03 2005,08:52)]Ed and then once a fella does go to general w/the 5 wpm you and all the rest WILL still find some way to slam them anyways...so WHY would they make the effort?? I usually don't post but I am so sick of seeing everyones gripe about the NCT's, yep, bet your butt I am one and proud of it too! So quit knocking ALL or just one NCT, be the better person for once, you and all the rest of the crowd need to just chill, and hey even you NCT'S need to chill out also, you know who you are, quit stirring the pot, jeeze....get a grip,life,love,whatever....sorry about the rant Ed..I do feel better, you be sure to have a nice day, and no I don't have that gimme attitude.

Cheers!
Just for the record.......I have NOTHING against NCT's. Hey, after all, I was one once.

My whole point was DON'T KNOCK HF IF YOUR NOT WILLING TO MAKE THE EFFORT TO GO THERE.

Go for it, search every post I have ever made. NEVER once will you see a post made by me that was in any way derogatory towards a NCT. You will find some subtle post's that would ENCOURAGE someone to upgrade but never a derogatory comment.
I never said you made a derogatory comment, I said don't slam them, when you said give me, give me, what do you think most people are gonna think? it is HOW you say things, ya know use tact. jeez....and If I came across as accusing you of the above I am sorry, but the bickering is getting old and I just had to vent on your comment. sorry for that also, I guess I did not help the matter with my comments either, anyways have a nice weekend, nice chatting with you all.

Cheers!

k4kyv

02-05-2005, 07:38 PM

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Feb. 04 2005,09:42)]I think it's time that the U.S. joined the rest of the world and did away with the subbands. Why do we really need them?
We don't have them on 160, and that band works fine. The FCC apparently agrees, since they recently rejected a petition by a few disgruntled licensees to establish 160m subbands.

On 80m, even during CW contest periods, you can count on nearly 100 kHz of spectrum lying essentially idle, between 3600 and 3700 kHz, even during prime time winter evening hours on weekends, while the "phone" bands may reach levels of congestion that make it impossible to find a QRM-free frequency to operate.

This congestion is mostly artificial, caused by our unrealistic subband allocations on that band.

The only argument that the pro-subband camp has been able to muster to justify this unused spectrum is that these frequencies remain in "reserve" for future "digital" modes yet to be developed, and speculative at best.

With our matrix of subband privileges based on both emission modes and licence class, we have the most over-complicated amateur radio band structure of any country in the world.

Why can't our FCC, like licensing authorities in nearly every other country, simply declare: "These are your band limits, stay within them, work out your own band plans and maintain good amateur and engineering practice."

In addition to mode (or bandwidth if you prefer) subbands, what is the point today of maintaining incentive licensing operator-class subbands? When I.L. was being debated, its stated purpose was to reverse the trend, very evident at the time in the amateur radio community, of retreating away from technical pursuits. It takes no rocket scientist to realise that from this perspective, I.L. was a dismal failure. If anything I.L. resulted in an ACCELERATION of the trend away from the technical aspects of amateur radio including homebrewing and experimentation, towards appliance operating and becoming firmly established as a "communicator's hobby." I recall that within a year or two after I.L. went into effect, nearly all the remaining homebrew stations I used to hear on HF had disappeared.

The FCC has better things to do and better ways to spend its limited share of tax dollars than to micromanage amateur radio.

K0RGR

02-06-2005, 02:43 AM

Quote[/b] (k4kyv @ Feb. 05 2005,12:38)]In addition to mode (or bandwidth if you prefer) subbands, what is the point today of maintaining incentive licensing operator-class subbands? When I.L. was being debated, its stated purpose was to reverse the trend, very evident at the time in the amateur radio community, of retreating away from technical pursuits. It takes no rocket scientist to realise that from this perspective, I.L. was a dismal failure. If anything I.L. resulted in an ACCELERATION of the trend away from the technical aspects of amateur radio including homebrewing and experimentation, towards appliance operating and becoming firmly established as a "communicator's hobby." I recall that within a year or two after I.L. went into effect, nearly all the remaining homebrew stations I used to hear on HF had disappeared.
Yes, and isn't it even more ironic that today, our most fertile ground for technical innovation seems to lie in the area of digital radio techniques, which is at the same time governed by a defined-mode subband system that makes it difficult to develop new digital modes?

wd0ct

02-06-2005, 02:43 AM

KYV: "
Posted: Feb. 05 2005,12:38 QUOTE
Quote (K0RGR @ Feb. 04 2005,09:42)
I think it's time that the U.S. joined the rest of the world and did away with the subbands. Why do we really need them?

We don't have them on 160, and that band works fine. The FCC apparently agrees, since they recently rejected a petition by a few disgruntled licensees to establish 160m subbands.

On 80m, even during CW contest periods, you can count on nearly 100 kHz of spectrum lying essentially idle, between 3600 and 3700 kHz, even during prime time winter evening hours on weekends, while the "phone" bands may reach levels of congestion that make it impossible to find a QRM-free frequency to operate.

This congestion is mostly artificial, caused by our unrealistic subband allocations on that band.

The only argument that the pro-subband camp has been able to muster to justify this unused spectrum is that these frequencies remain in "reserve" for future "digital" modes yet to be developed, and speculative at best.

With our matrix of subband privileges based on both emission modes and licence class, we have the most over-complicated amateur radio band structure of any country in the world.

Why can't our FCC, like licensing authorities in nearly every other country, simply declare: "These are your band limits, stay within them, work out your own band plans and maintain good amateur and engineering practice." "

This is much better than refarming. Makes more sense too. I hope it comes to pass.

n2nh

02-07-2005, 03:59 AM

Quote[/b] (wd0ct @ Feb. 02 2005,21:00)]Screw code versus no code. The real issue is when the fcc does away with the code requirement, the hf bands will be filled with techs and novices needing and wanting to use phone.

Quote[/b] (w3ud @ Feb. 04 2005,17:47)]
====
I never said that hams are not getting on the air because they can not pass the code. Please take a look at my post again if you will. I think you might be attributing the wrong post (concerning the code) to me.

I left out the Novice and Tech+ in my numbers comparison in order to show the actual number of those who have substantial HF priviliges and I judged this to be General, Advanced, and Extra. If a Tech+ or Novice is on the air on HF it is either on 10 meters or in the Novice CW sub-bands.

I am in the Novice CW sub-bands quite a bit and enjoy chatting with those who are trying to improve their code speed, or chatting with those who are there like (like I am) to help them along. I usually have QRZ.com up on the computer when I am on the air and from my experience, I rarely see a Novice or Tech+ licensee come up when I query the database for license info of those I am working. #I do that when I am working in theos bands to see if I am actually working a Novice or Tech+.

Yes, there are a few, However, there are most likely many more licensed Novices and Tech+ than there were in the days when the Novice bands were crowded beyond belief, and every night was bedlam on the 40 and 80 meter Novice CW segments.

If they are active on HF, where are they? 10 meter phone? I think some might be there, but again it is kind of rare for me to hear one.

73
George
K3UD
The topic was refarming of the CW/Digital parts of the HF bands. #I would feel that most Tech Plus and Novices are upgrading, but those that haven't still have their HF priviledges. #IMHO, whether or not they're operating doesn't matter, we don't know how many General, Advanced and Extras are operating on HF either - priviledges notwithstanding. #I didn't have the experience of hearing the Novice sub-bands ever being very busy, so to me it seems that maybe the reason they're quieter is becuase they're upgrading to higher classes. #Sorry if I took it out of context.

BTW, CW's demise is being chanted over and over again by those who propose a no-code HF license. #The logic is that it is not being used as a mode because it is obsolete. #In the Feb. 2005 issue of CQ, their poll show OVER 70% #use morse regularly.