CANADA REPORTS AGREEMENT TO DROP MORSE

[KG0GY]

.......... but not buy. See my error correction still works

[KC2NRU]

The Service is going down the tubes. Im only 15 and im noticing it. I've noticed its not what it use to be (according to stories from older hams) and most of them are right. Soon I will be starting a club in school just to help the hobby spread around!

[KY1V]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Jan. 26 2005,16:02)]Hey!! #Looks like a code/no code poll on the "Ragchew" Opinions section and the no coders are winning!
I think you meant whinning!

David ~ KY1V

[P29NW]

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Jan. 22 2005,10:43)]It's the end of the world as we know it.

K6BBC
[QUOTE]

Before you bemoan the end of the world, just think how much better HAM radio would be if the FCC actually required new HAMs to pass a real technical exam. You only have to pick up a book and read it for a couple of hours, and, run into the locl radio club, grab a piece of paper and tick a few boxes.

Judging by some of the QSL cards we all receive one could be forgiven for thinking that someone else must have sat their exam.

We here "Colonial" types actually have to draw circuits, explain Ohms Law, draw receiver #and transmitter block diagrams, explain how circuits work and the list goes on.

The 5WPM is only receive after all, just imagine the cries of outrage if the FCC expected operators to be able to send CW....heaven forbid....

I learnt CW, liked it, I had to, otherwise I would never have mastered it, then alas...I "Lost" my key...Gee Whiz

Cheer up folks, it is NOT the end of the world if the FCC drops CW....The problem you face is your General Exam is TOO EASY...drop the CW, toughen the written test's, make them earn their spurs.

Oh well, I better drop down under the radar again, I feel the missile lauch is about to take place.

73's...Good DX....
Gary

I must be experiencing DeJavu, I think I have forgotten this before! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KD7YVV]

Quote[/b] (ve7ngr @ Jan. 26 2005,14:03)]
Quote[/b] (KD7YVV @ Jan. 26 2005,05:16)]When I first got my license, I used Echolink.
Yes, Echolink. Why? It was a mode I hadn't tried.
Then I got my first radio, a little Alinco DJ-V5TH.
So now I have 2 modes under my belt. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Echolink is a linking system. It is not a mode!
I'm not going to debate if it is a mode or not.
For those that absolutely must be politically correct about
everything:

It is a FORM of communication I hadn't tried.

Are you happy now?

--KD7YVV, Kirkland, WA ARES #154

[W1PPY]

This continuous debate is always entertaining, if nothing else...
The only sense I've heard so far is from Gary / P29NW.
& yes, look me up - I passed the Extra "Light" test w/ only a 5wpm section under my belt - regardless of the fact that I studied and excelled at CW for years in the Navy, (& not so long ago, either !)
So for a CONSTRUCTIVE input; let's get the FCC to make the technical content of the test worthwhile. Personally, I thought the Extra exam was WAAAY too easy, except for trying to remember usless bits of information that someone tried to insert to increase the challenge. SOme of them were so inane - we will learn the finer points when and if we are interested in those special modes.
Let's get back to drawing block & schematic diagrams, lets get back to explaining the operation of various circuitry, so there is a knowledge base in this hobby - and not just cutting wire to build dipoles ! The knowedge that a successful candidate can be proud of, having passed a challenging test, and unlike me, not feel (embarrassed ?!) when I answer that, "Yes, I'm an Extra Class Operator" #and it doesn't have to be as detailed as the Commercial R/T test, but for the top level of exam, it should be close to it...IMHO, as is often said.
The issue of who had/s a CB radio is the most ridiculous argument I've heard, and looking through the posts, it is everywhere. How about a show of hands: Who #has NEVER owned a CB radio ? #Uh-huh, I thought so...

73 Boys & Girls, let's play nice ! #8 )[B]

[K4JF]

OK, here's a suggestion. To qualify my statement, let me say I'm an Extra and passed the 20wpm code to get it. (That's really not all that fast - I was doing 25 as a Novice in 1975). Most of my operating in the last 30 years has been CW until recently. (Still haven't mastered an iambic paddle vs. straight key.)

I think we should:
1. Delete the CW for General class. It's not really a "filter", now is it?
2. Retain the code for Extra - at 15 wpm. After all, how can you claim top of the heap if you don't know the basics? And CW is certainly one of the basics. An Extra should be able to understand a repeater ID, for pete's sake!
3. Both General and Extra exams need to be much tougher, both theory and operating.
Someone commented on Extra should be near the difficulty of commercial exam. I have heard from more than one person who took both that, at one time, the Amateur Extra exam was a lot tougher than the First Class Commercial. Bring it back.

[ve6fet]

YAWNNNNNNNNNNNNNN This is getting Old real quick these arguements have not changed in 20 years .... Lets get on with the business of ham radio ....


Ed

VA6EF

[N8CPA]

If that wasn't a rhetorical question, I have never owned CB radio. And except for using old CH 14 walkie talkie at the request of a young relative for some back yard hide and seek game, or to test how far they could talk, I have never used CB.

However, my situation is somewhat unique since I was exposed to Amateur Radio at a very early age even before CB became legal. In fact, the first time I saw a CB, when I was about 10, I thought it was Amateur Radio.

Years later, when friends of mine got involved in craze era CB, and I declined because I was more interested in becoming a ham, I was called a snob. And according to some nowadays, I am a snob or elitist because I passed 5/13/20 and because I only failed one exam one time in the entire syllabus--despite what I at one time perceived as a complete lack of technical aptitude.

I've only been Extra for 11 years. I hope to someday be a real ham, in the sense that you imply. And I think passing my General first try before an FCC examiner 25+ years ago just might be a qualifying step. At least, I don't regret it.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (ve6fet @ Jan. 27 2005,08:15)]YAWNNNNNNNNNNNNNN #This is getting Old real quick these arguements have not changed in 20 years .... Lets get on with the business of ham radio ....


# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #Ed

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # VA6EF
Ed, don't expect the arguments to stop anytime soon. There are still people complaining about the "incentive licensing" of the 60s - which has proved its worth over and over.

[W5RCP]

We argue this Code/No Code issue as if we really have a say in it. In case you haven't noticed, people in Washington aren't listening to any of us.... Code or No Code.......

[AC4UT]

Quote[/b] (n0klu @ Jan. 26 2005,20:17)]
Quote[/b] (kf1g @ Jan. 26 2005,12:01)]It's a string!! #A thread would not support so many posts...
It's a rope, string is still too small.
A rope to some a "NOOSE" to others.

[kf4gmh]

The walkie talkie feature on my Nextel does me just fine. So, there you have it. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[VE3LT]

[QUOTE] KG0GY
"Did we learn nothing from the Tsunami? #Code is still the most reliable form of communication. #The digital modes are close buy my brain is far better at error correction than any digital mode. #Oh well, my old CB handle was hushpuppy".[QUOTE]

What century are you from?
Your brain is far better at error correction?
I think that is a pompous statement...

Time for Amateurs to "Boldly go where no Amateur has gone before" This debate is very old and ambivalent and will never change...

[KC0TJW]

Some people just can't wait for those whale oil futures to pay off. I for one think Extra Class lic holders should be required to demonstrate the ability to raise and train carrier pigeons.

[W7DME]

Quote[/b] (N8CPA @ Jan. 24 2005,10:06)]Mike, the waivers disappeared at the same time as 13 & 20WPM exams. #Since they were contingent on passing 5WPM, eliminating higher speeds eliminated the waiver. #You can read the full text at the FCC website. #Look for document FCC-99412.
Yep I went and looked it up and your right. Well, there is still hope because Code will probably be a thing of the past shortly. I see the FCC following suit with Cananda and other Nations, and now seems to me a "Done Deal". It is just a matter of time. What I read was that the FCC was "tired" of the abuse of medical waivers, and reasoned that 5 WPM was the same as a waiver deleting any code requirement at all. I sometimes wonder what planet these Officials are from? Even at 5 WMP maximun requirements, there are some who can't even do that, yet could pass a written test. I find it ironic that testing groups are allowed to accomodate someones physical limitations with verbal questioning ( I assume we are allowed to do that still) yet require them to pass 5 WPM. If I am wrong, and those accomodations are not allowed any more, then shame on the FCC!

Thanks for bringing me up to date

73,

Mike - K7OV

[AD5JN]

Drop the code and strengthen the written test General
Leave the code in place for Extra.
AD5JN
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[VE7NGR]

Quote[/b] (KD7YVV @ Jan. 27 2005,03:43)]
Quote[/b] (ve7ngr @ Jan. 26 2005,14:03)]Echolink is a linking system. It is not a mode!
I'm not going to debate if it is a mode or not.
For those that absolutely must be politically correct about
everything:

It is a FORM of communication I hadn't tried.

Are you happy now?
No debate required. That it isn't a mode is a fact.

I have no idea how this can be construed as political correctness.

I encounter a lot of people who have no idea what the term mode really means. These forums have a rather broad audience, and by using terms like this incorrectly, I fear we are contributing to the problem. A new ham who sees a term used incorrectly will often not know it is used incorrectly, and may become misinformed about what the term means. That is why I pointed it out.

My intent was not to criticize.

[KF9VH]

Do think the no-code guys are going to invade your beloved cw portion of the bands?

I am more worried about over crowding. Considering the lack of cw operators on and the over crowding all ready it seems to me some of the cw section should be opened up for phone operation.

Let the flames begin.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (KF9VH @ Jan. 27 2005,12:29)]Do think the no-code guys are going to invade your beloved cw portion of the bands?

I am more worried about over crowding. Considering the lack of cw operators on and the over crowding all ready it seems to me some of the cw section should be opened up for phone operation.

Let the flames begin.
No flames, just a correction - it is FAR more crowded in the tiny little portion of the bands for CW. But we can handle it, because a CW signal takes up little bandspace. Leave it like it is: 35 Khz ain't all that much.

[W0FS]

If W4ABX is going to use a "dit-dah-dah----------" sign off on his post, why doesn't he use his own call letters? Doesn't know the code?
73, Clay W0FS

[W4DRA]

vk3txz said it in a nutshell. Learning the code is like learning to shoe a horse to get a drivers license. And I have a horse.

I am a tech and have a problem with code, so I got myself a small $150.00 laptop and can send and recieve code as fast as you want. Just another reason to drop the code, who needs it with todays age of computers, cell phones, ect.
Hey if the guys like code thats great, but some people have no need for it and therefore holds back a lot of could-be good operators.

I myself use very little repeater's I prefer SSB either 6 meter or 2 meter. I would like to be able to use HF of some sort. However I am trying to do the code again for about the 4th time. I have a hearing problem and a attention problem so it is tough, and sometimes I want to give up.
So I would like to see them drop it and make the written a bit tougher.
Not all of us were gifted in learning CODE, and my hats off to the ones who are and I have a lot of respect for you guys.
Thats my thought if it means anything.
Ohh by the way, tune in to 3.945 and listen to the fellows there and then tell me about the 2 meter guys. Some of these guys would be banded from the repeaters.
Thanks for reading and have a great day.

W4DRA
Dunnellon, Florida #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[W7SAV]

Wooww, probably 80% of hams started out as "Chicken Banders",
Why is it that this Holy E R than Thou attitude comes out. Code ability
has nothing to do with electronic ability, experimentation, community
service.. Listen to 20,40,80 and 160 mtrs. you would think some of these
rude, cussing frequency owning, code pounders would remember what ham is
really about.. NOT CODE....

[KG4YUS]

Quote[/b] (vk3txz @ Jan. 22 2005,15:47)]Learning the code is like learning to shoe a horse to get a drivers license
I agree.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

I also feel those "Ole'timers" on 40, 80, and 160 who are as, #if not more foul mouthed, #than a drunken sailor with a bad case of the clap, ought to have there tickets taken.

I've copied more than one op who was not even licensed to be on the hf bands. They just use or had there calls changed to the old 1by2 or 2by2 "whiskey" calls.


W4DRA---

Hello Dave! What happend to 2m SSB @ 2030hrs???

3945khz is terrible late in the evenings

[KE6PKJ]

I taught my horse how to put his own shoes on, he can already copy morse at 20 wpm, and he's got his own drivers license. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[kb3lqy]

I believe the deletion of CW test requirements to gain operating privileges on HF would be good for the hobby as a whole. #CW is important. #It is the most basic mode; most likely to get through when conditions severely hamper other modes. #But, the CW test is like a barrier separating Hams from HF.
I go to Trinity High School, where we have a large amount of licensed operators. #The CW test clearly limits the potential of many of my peers to gain a stronger interest in the hobby by preventing them from experiencing the HF bands. #Some kind of "codeless HF” would be nice.
73,
KB3LQY

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (vk3txz @ Jan. 22 2005,13:47)]Learning the code is like learning to shoe a horse to get a drivers license
Bad analogy,(shoeing a horse to get driver`s license)

Its more like the guy who does not want to "work"
or "learn" anything about horses, but just want`s
to get on the horse and "giddy-up go".
Anyone who knows anything about horses and rides
with a "serious intent", knows there is a lot more to
riding than just getting on, and riding, otherwise the
horse can and will take an inexperienced rider for a
"real ride".
Same holds true for amateur radio,--one gets out of
an endeavor what one puts into it,--give very little,
and get very little back,--pure and simple.
Ham radio keeps getting "dumbed down", the "harvest"
will be minimal.
# # # # # # # # # # # # #73, K1MVP # # # # # # # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KD7YVV]

Quote[/b] (ve7ngr @ Jan. 27 2005,12:28)]
Quote[/b] (KD7YVV @ Jan. 27 2005,03:43)]
Quote[/b] (ve7ngr @ Jan. 26 2005,14:03)]Echolink is a linking system. It is not a mode!
I'm not going to debate if it is a mode or not.
For those that absolutely must be politically correct about
everything:

It is a FORM of communication I hadn't tried.

Are you happy now?
No debate required. That it isn't a mode is a fact.

I have no idea how this can be construed as political correctness.

I encounter a lot of people who have no idea what the term mode really means. These forums have a rather broad audience, and by using terms like this incorrectly, I fear we are contributing to the problem. A new ham who sees a term used incorrectly will often not know it is used incorrectly, and may become misinformed about what the term means. That is why I pointed it out.

My intent was not to criticize.
mode:

#1. A manner, way, or method of doing or acting: modern modes of travel. See Synonyms at method.
2. A particular form, variety, or manner: a mode of expression.
3. A given condition of functioning; a status: The spacecraft was in its recovery mode.

form:

#2 The mode in which a thing exists, acts, or manifests itself; kind: a form of animal life; a form of blackmail.

Cheers http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

--KD7YVV, Kirkland, WA ARES #154

[KD7YVV]

Quote[/b] (W4DRA @ Jan. 27 2005,13:59)]vk3txz said it in a nutshell. Learning the code is like learning to shoe a horse to get a drivers license. And I have a horse.

I am a tech and have a problem with code, so I got myself a small $150.00 laptop and can send and recieve code as fast as you want. Just another reason to drop the code, who needs it with todays age of computers, cell phones, ect.
Hey if the guys like code thats great, but some people have no need for it and therefore holds back a lot of could-be good operators.

I myself use very little repeater's I prefer SSB either 6 meter or 2 meter. I would like to be able to use HF of some sort. However I am trying to do the code again for about the 4th time. I have a hearing problem and a attention problem so it is tough, and sometimes I want to give up.
So I would like to see them drop it and make the written a bit tougher.
Not all of us were gifted in learning CODE, and my hats off to the ones who are and I have a lot of respect for you guys.
Thats my thought if it means anything.
Ohh by the way, tune in to 3.945 and listen to the fellows there and then tell me about the 2 meter guys. Some of these guys would be banded from the repeaters.
Thanks for reading and have a great day.

W4DRA
Dunnellon, Florida http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I like the quote about the horse. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I am also a tech, but am curious as to what happens when
you're out and about, and your laptop battery goes dead.
Cellphones aren't reliable. When we had an earthquake
here, the cell network was overloaded.
Technology is good and all, but even though I have 2
GPS units, it's still nice to know how to use a map and compass.

I too am having trouble with the code, but I found a program.
It costs money but in addition to the ARRL CD's I have it helps.
It's called Code Quick and helps you remember what letters
are by association.
For example:
C = dah dit dah dit = Catch It Catch It.
D = dah dit dit = Dog Did It

Don't give up on your code if you're learning.
Soon it will all click in. I'm still plugging away at it
and still waiting for it to all click in, but as the old
saying goes: practice makes perfect
Good luck with it!

Cheers,

--KD7YVV, Kirkland, WA ARES #154

[KB9KLC]

Look people, it's very simple. Want HF? learn the code. Don't want to take the time and effort to learn the code? NO HF. Those are the rules at this time. Get over it. All we've done here is make it possible for the owner of this sight to charge his advertisers more. Other than that we havn't solved anything. :0

[W5RCP]

Keep CW and get rid of the Technician Class. And BTW, for all you people complaining about the old timers using foul language, they aren't doing it with CW!

[KC2KVZ]

All I can say is WOW. What happened to the old tradition of HELPING new hams learn?

That is all....

73 de KC2KVZ

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (W4DRA @ Jan. 27 2005,13:59)]Learning the code is like learning to shoe a horse to get a drivers license. W4DRA
Dunnellon, Florida #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I disagree. (The horse is unrelated to a car, CW is obviously NOT unrelated to radio.)

A better analogy is requiring mastery of a manual transmission to get a driver's license. (That was the case when I got my first driver's license. You couldn't take the exam in an automatic, by law.) Obsolete to some people who don't really want to learn to drive. Not really required for safe operation, of some equipment.

BUT! You can never claim to have full control of a high-performance car if you can't handle a modern manual transmission.

Drop the code for General, keep it for Extra.

And make exams a lot tougher for both cars and radio licenses (BOTH are too easy)!!

[N0DIT]

Since we are making the test tougher. #Let's also re-test all the old gesers after they get a certain age to see if they can still cut the mustard. #Might see a lot of revoked license, both driving and radio. #If you're serious about your craft as you say you are, it should be a cake walk...right?

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (kc2kvz @ Jan. 27 2005,20:15)]All I can say is WOW. What happened to the old tradition of HELPING new hams learn?

That is all....

73 de KC2KVZ
Oldtimers still do help newcomers,(at least this guy
still does)--The whole thing is that a "newcomer"
years ago had what was called a "novice" ticket
and had limited privaleges, and General`s and
Advanced or Extra class licensee`s were able to
"help" the novice ham.--Problem is now, with no
"novice" ticket, and "quickie" ham classes, many of
the "generals" and "extra`s" of today are inexperienced
and without the "solid basics" to be able to help
a newcomer, as they are "newcomer`s"
.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # 73, K1MVP # # # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[W4DRA]

In response to KB9KLC comments.
Well I guess I am the only one who said anything about the foul words on HF so I guess I will speak up.

I thought these guys were the elete of the group. But guess I was wrong about that too. So why are these guy allowed to perform in such manner? And its not anything new, its been going on for well over 2 years. But I must admit it beats haveing to watch judge Judy.
I don't see anyone ragging on these guys and calling them CBers. (for lack of a better term). I don't hear that stuff on 2 meters, so who is the bad guys here?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #As far as getting over it, #I don't feel like it!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Guess what I am saying is, every time this comes up its always comes down to trashing the band by either techs or CBers. That is completly unfounded.

And kc2kvz has a point. (QUOTE) What happened to the old tradition of HELPING new hams learn?

I have heard a new guy come on some of the bands and was ran off because he didn't fit in with there little group. That the kind of mentality of some of the operators now days. Just as I here people complane about 60 meter being CHANNELS. So what! I think it has its good points and stops a lot of splatter with the lower power. But there are some who don't like it because of there antennas aren't made for it and they don't want to get up off there lazy butts and build one. There the one who would rather buy it.

So no mater how you slice it, you can't please every one all the time.
If it happens that the code is droped, I hope it doesn't mess up the bands. IF everyone takes a little bit of time to correct the new ham without flamming him or her, teach them the proper way then all will flow normal, But if the ole timers try to run everyone off and blast them everytime then its going to start a conflict, just like on the chicken bands. So we will see ....... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I wish everyone a good evening...

73's
W4DRA
Dunnellon, Florida

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (kc0sqv @ Jan. 27 2005,20:52)]Since we are making the test tougher. #Let's also re-test all the old gesers after they get a certain age to see if they can still cut the mustard. #Might see a lot of revoked license, both driving and radio. #If you're serious about your craft as you say you are, it should be a cake walk...right?
No problem, I would gladly "re-test" if they would go
back to giving "meaningful" tests that test the "true
basics" of electronics like they did years ago,--but
you won`t see that happen, I`ll wager in the near
or even distant future,--Get rid of the "multiple
guess" questions, es get back to the "real" elements
of electronics.
# # # # # # # # # # # #73, K1MVP # # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[V73NS]

If you give something away... it no longer has any value and will be abused.

If the US drops code it will be a very dark day for the world. Just tune 27.555 and listen to the future of amateur radio.

KEEP THE CODE.
KEEP THE PRIDE.

[W1PPY]

Justso's its clear - I studied and passed the Extra test so I could use all the BW available. I was fortunate enough to learn cw at the fist of my Uncle Sam, and not everyone has that advantage - 10 hrs a day, 6 days a week (sometimes), for 4 months - you get pretty 'proficient' that way. So what ?!
I prefer to speak and listen to a voice, so I spend 80% of my time on 2mtrs in the car, on the way back & forth to work. I know guys who love working cw while driving back & forth on the same road. On weekends and occasionally nights, I wander around 20 mtrs & make a few contacts. My key doesn't even have a connector on it, but only because I choose not to use it. That is how I am involved in the hobby. I hear others who say similar things about areas of it THEY enjoy.
Maybe there should be a cw req't @ 15 or 20wpm & tack a suffix on the lic. to identify those who have it, kinda like the old Radar Endorsement on the Comm'l 1st Class. (and btw, although I seriously doubt the amateur exam EVER rated up against the Commercial test, circuits is circuits !)
This is a hobby and the enjoyment of it is what counts.

I'll be interested to see how many more pages are here tomrrow - but right now, I'm going to bed.

[N0KLU]

Quote[/b] (V73NS @ Jan. 27 2005,15:47)]If you give something away... it no longer has any value and will be abused.

If the US drops code it will be a very dark day for the world. Just tune 27.555 and listen to the future of amateur radio.

KEEP THE CODE.
KEEP THE PRIDE.
Your too late! listen to 3.750 through 3.90 (75/80 meter band) it is already there, also listen across #40m and of course the 17m band, bad launguage, discussions on how the "lowlife techies" will ruin HF, and other such trash, Just like on eHam.net and now on the QRZ! Oh yes and by the way,add to the list no ID for hours on end. I recorded on conversation that lasted for 1hr and 12 min with no ID at all! But since no "ID" nothing can be done. (this is the pride and joy of the Code croud)

I find more polite operators on 6m and above for at least 100 miles around Rolla, Mo.

So your comments about NoCoders ruining HF are debunked on the onset.


BTW my emergency flashlights work just fine for the "dark day for the world" times.

[KY1V]

Quote[/b] (W4DRA @ Jan. 27 2005,23:09)]In response to KB9KLC comments.
Well I guess I am the only one who said anything about the foul words on HF so I guess I will speak up.

I thought these guys were the elete of the group. But guess I was wrong about that too. So why are these guy allowed to perform in such manner? And its not anything new, its been going on for well over 2 years. But I must admit it beats haveing to watch judge Judy.
I don't see anyone ragging on these guys and calling them CBers. (for lack of a better term). I don't hear that stuff on 2 meters, so who is the bad guys here?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #As far as getting over it, #I don't feel like it!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Guess what I am saying is, every time this comes up its always comes down to trashing the band by either techs or CBers. That is completly unfounded.

And kc2kvz has a point. (QUOTE) What happened to the old tradition of HELPING new hams learn?

I have heard a new guy come on some of the bands and was ran off because he didn't fit in with there little group. That the kind of mentality of some of the operators now days. Just as I here people complane about 60 meter being CHANNELS. So what! I think it has its good points and stops a lot of splatter with the lower power. But there are some who don't like it because of there antennas aren't made for it and they don't want to get up off there lazy butts and build one. There the one who would rather buy it.

So no mater how you slice it, you can't please every one all the time.
If it happens that the code is droped, I hope it doesn't mess up the bands. IF everyone takes a little bit of time to correct the new ham without flamming him or her, teach them the proper way then all will flow normal, But if the ole timers try to run everyone off and blast them everytime then its going to start a conflict, just like on the chicken bands. So we will see ....... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I wish everyone a good evening...

73's
W4DRA
Dunnellon, Florida
Let's analyze this piece by piece...and I won't even flame you for the dozen or so spelling errors...LOL.

--------------------------------------------------------

"Well I guess I am the only one who said anything about the foul words on HF so I guess I will speak up.

I thought these guys were the elete of the group. But guess I was wrong about that too. So why are these guy allowed to perform in such manner? And its not anything new, its been going on for well over 2 years. But I must admit it beats haveing to watch judge Judy."

First, let's premise your assumptions with some basic questions:

1) Who says the people using foul language are the elite?

2) How long have they had their licenses?

3) Are they of the new "memorize the test" era of the last decade or are they long time hams that took the old fashion tests in front of an FCC examiner?

I have been a ham for 29 years and I am proficient in CW. Heck, in 2004 I was selected "Amateur of the Year" and to this day, I have never considered myself elite. This is a label that you place upon a group of hams you don't particularly like.

Many of the SSB operators that you hear using such foul language are not CW operators and probably couldn't pass a 5WPM code test today, so referencing them in a code - no code debate only lessens the validity of your argument.

The reason they are allowed to "get away" with it is due to the new "hands off" approach of self enforcement that the ARRL and FCC have agreed upon, which obviously doesn't work.

With a few rare exceptions, you would never have encountered this type of behavior in the 70's as is now prevalent on 75 meters today.

The solution to the problem is enforcement. Until the FCC begins enforcing the rules with an iron fist, this sort of behavior will persist.
--------------------------------------------------------


"I don't see anyone ragging on these guys and calling them CBers. (for lack of a better term)."

What would you have us do, get on their frequency and deliberately interfere with them? This only compounds the problem and puts the attacker in the same classification as the original offender.

You have pen and paper. Report them. Then use that big knob on your radio and tune to another frequency.

If there are enough reports, perhaps the FCC might do something about the situation. I can assure of this, getting on their frequency and arguing with them serves no useful purpose.
--------------------------------------------------------

"I don't hear that stuff on 2 meters, so who is the bad guys here?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif As far as getting over it, I don't feel like it!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Guess what I am saying is, every time this comes up its always comes down to trashing the band by either techs or CBers. That is completly unfounded."

Neither you nor I know whether the guys cursing on 75 meters are old CB'ers or not, so any statement without facts would be unfounded. Just because you don't hear cursing on 2 meters on your particular repeater doesn't mean it doesn't take place.

I can say with certainty, having a code test prevents many of today's CB'ers from getting on amateur radio.

No one will argue with you about whether or not this prevents many potential GOOD and BAD people from getting on HF, but I am willing to bet that there are more BAD than GOOD on CB. The question is, if we dumb down the process of obtaining an amateur license even further, which of these types will we attract, the GOOD, the BAD or BOTH (aka the UGLY)?

Based on what I have seen from the first dumbing down of amateur testing, it will attract a higher percentage of bad than good. Since most of you no-coders haven't been around HF long enough to have seen what us "old timers" have seen, you cannot comprehend the impact.
--------------------------------------------------------

"And kc2kvz has a point. (QUOTE) What happened to the old tradition of HELPING new hams learn?"

I don't think this is the issue. I think the issue is more about accepting help. How many times have you read a post where a no-coder is complaining and whining about having to learn code, only to have someone offer to help them, then be shunned by the no-coder? I have seen it in many threads on eHam and QRZ.COM.

I think you will find that most "old timers" are receptive to helping those that genuinely want help. All you have to do is ask. We can't force you to learn.
--------------------------------------------------------

"I have heard a new guy come on some of the bands and was ran off because he didn't fit in with there little group."

I won't condone running people off, but there are certain groups of hams that have their clicks and want to keep it that way. If they are using a frequency, I guess it is their prerogative to accept or deny breakers. You can't force people to accept you and you have no right to join or interfere with their ongoing QSO. You may listen all you want.

Personally, I welcome most any breaker, but occasionally you get a guy that breaks in and takes over the QSO with an off-topic subject or someone that can only be heard by one party. That isn't very much fun, is it?

Also, I doubt the newcomers are "run off the band". There's lots of frequencies on each band. Call CQ. Start your own group. Work DX. Whatever. The main thing is to have a backbone. If one group runs you off and makes you dislike amateur radio, perhaps you need another hobby, one you do alone.
--------------------------------------------------------

"That the kind of mentality of some of the operators now days. Just as I here people complain about 60 meter being CHANNELS. So what! I think it has its good points and stops a lot of splatter with the lower power. But there are some who don't like it because of there antennas aren't made for it and they don't want to get up off there lazy butts and build one. There the one who would rather buy it."

I'm not quite certain how to take this statement, however, I can't imagine that people don't like channelized radio because their antennas aren't made for it. Whatever the case, some like 60 meters, others do not. What does it have to do with this issue about learning code?
--------------------------------------------------------

"So no mater how you slice it, you can't please every one all the time."

Finally, we agree on something!
--------------------------------------------------------

"If it happens that the code is droped, I hope it doesn't mess up the bands. If everyone takes a little bit of time to correct the new ham without flamming him or her, teach them the proper way then all will flow normal, But if the ole timers try to run everyone off and blast them everytime then its going to start a conflict, just like on the chicken bands. So we will see ....... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif "

Again, there you go blaming a certain group. Just because you have had a bad experience with a few old timers, doesn't make them all bad. I know plenty of old timers that would bend over backwards to help a newcomer get a license, setup a station and learn how to become a good operator. Until you stop lumping everyone into one category, you will not be accepted yourself. No one will accept you if you are prejudiced against their group.
--------------------------------------------------------

I encourage you to learn code. Here are a few of the benefits:

1) Access - Immediate access to HF. This is, of course, what you want, isn't it?
2) Pride - You will feel a proud that you overcame an obstacle that you thought was insurmountable. You will have a sense of accomplishment
3) Discovery - You may discover that code is quite fun. Come join me in a contest in the Caribbean!
4) Acceptance - You will gain acceptance by the rest of the amateur community

Wouldn't it be a terrible waste of your life if you never learned code only to find out that the FCC never removed the requirement. I know that many of you are thinking that the code requirement will eventually be lifted, but what if it is not. Look at what you are missing!

David ~ KY1V

[VE7NGR]

Quote[/b] (KD7YVV @ Jan. 27 2005,19:18)]mode:

#1. A manner, way, or method of doing or acting: modern modes of travel. See Synonyms at method.
2. A particular form, variety, or manner: a mode of expression.
3. A given condition of functioning; a status: The spacecraft was in its recovery mode.

form:

#2 The mode in which a thing exists, acts, or manifests itself; kind: a form of animal life; a form of blackmail.
In any technical field, certain words are used which have meanings specific to that field. Now try looking it up in, say, the ARRL Handbook, or William Orr's Radio Handbook.

[N7WSB]

Quote[/b] (V73NS @ Jan. 27 2005,21:47)]If you give something away... it no longer has any value and will be abused.

If the US drops code it will be a very dark day for the world. Just tune 27.555 and listen to the future of amateur radio.

KEEP THE CODE.
KEEP THE PRIDE.
You should tell that to the free software foundation and the people who write and maintain linux.

[KD5INM]

Hi all,

I hope to eventually learn CW because CW is used in some bands that I enjoy such as 10 ghz. I do not agree with some opinions that CW is worthless, but I do agree that Amateur radio will be better served by removing it as a requirement to operate HF.
#I started out in CB as many Hams have, and while I might have jokingly done the good buddy thing with friends and such I never operated in a manner that reflected badly on myself or denegrated others (made them feel bad). I was always respectful and didn't carry on like an idiot(even on cb).
#I feel that with the threat of BPL and others who want to "purchase" our frequencies that we shouldn't be fighting about CW, and calling our ALLIES/FRIENDS to the north names is not going to help things either and darn sure isn't going to make them think kindly of us.
#We (amateur radio) should welcome the added Hams that will be able to use HF, did you folks ever think that if 10,000 more hams could use HF, then maybe 10,000 more would complain and speak up when HF is threatened by the likes of BPL?, strength in numbers applies here. Right now, many of the Technicians have no stake in HF, so they have no reason to care one way or another whether HF is "splattered" on or sold off.
#Things change, I took a different test (2 tests, 30 questions and 35 questions) and the one now currently is 35 questions, I don't feel upset that I had a different exam, I'm just glad that folks are able to test, get a license and join me in doing something that I love.
#If everyone that is worried about improper operating and such were to change their approach to a positive one and encourage the newbies to follow good practice and teach them , and correct them with a kind tone, then I think things would change if that is a problem in their region of the country/world (where I live in North Texas, we don't have much trouble with Hams misbehaving). Most new hams I have met look to me to set the example, as I did when I was new and most all of them want to do things correctly, they WANT to fit in and be a part of the Ham community, not a thorn in our side.
#I take my license seriously and I for one plan to follow the rules and be the best Ham I can be no matter what band I am on.
#BTW, many Hams would be surprised at some of the technical knowledge of some cb'ers that I've met, the only things I had to study for when preparing for the test was phonetics and MPE (permissible exposure) and what bands were what and where I could operate, I knew all the electronics, ohms law and such and my exam proved it. Don't discount the cb people, many of them love radio like we (hams) do, they just haven't found their way yet to join us, or in some cases, they just haven't met a kind ham who took an interest in them and encouraged them to take the first step to study. Saying bad things about folks who are like us in that they have different aspects of cb, such as some of them are interested in how radio works and some just want to talk to to friends, but to lump them all into one group and call them bad or degrade them is not likely to make them want to join our ranks, rather it would make them want to dislike us and be the opposite of us. Sure, cb has no license, but that is how many folks/young people get their first taste of radio and the wonder it can bring, we should try and interact with them and behave in a professional manner, a cut above so to speak and the ones(cb'ers) who tire of #lack of discipline on some channels might give Ham radio a thought. I've met several ex-cber's that became hams just because of the discipline that goes along with good Ham radio operation.

#That's my $.02 worth...73' John Hamilton kd5inm

[KB9KLC]

Quote[/b] ] W4DRA In response to KB9KLC comments.
Well I guess I am the only one who said anything about the foul words on HF so I guess I will speak up.
I'm not sure what the above is about, so I'll comment. I too have heard the foul language on the ham bands, frs, gmrs, and cb radio. It all boils down to the people.
I will work anyone on any band that shows good operating practice. I will indeed help anyone that I can that needs a helping hand. My responses in this thread have had to do more with people, rather than modes and bands. In the meantime, good luck to all. I wish you happy hamming.
Greg

[KB9KLC]

Quote[/b] (KD5INM @ Jan. 28 2005,05:14)]Hi all,

I hope to eventually learn CW because CW is used in some bands that I enjoy such as 10 ghz. I do not agree with some opinions that CW is worthless, but I do agree that Amateur radio will be better served by removing it as a requirement to operate HF.
I started out in CB as many Hams have, and while I might have jokingly done the good buddy thing with friends and such I never operated in a manner that reflected badly on myself or denegrated others (made them feel bad). I was always respectful and didn't carry on like an idiot(even on cb).
I feel that with the threat of BPL and others who want to "purchase" our frequencies that we shouldn't be fighting about CW, and calling our ALLIES/FRIENDS to the north names is not going to help things either and darn sure isn't going to make them think kindly of us.
We (amateur radio) should welcome the added Hams that will be able to use HF, did you folks ever think that if 10,000 more hams could use HF, then maybe 10,000 more would complain and speak up when HF is threatened by the likes of BPL?, strength in numbers applies here. Right now, many of the Technicians have no stake in HF, so they have no reason to care one way or another whether HF is "splattered" on or sold off.
Things change, I took a different test (2 tests, 30 questions and 35 questions) and the one now currently is 35 questions, I don't feel upset that I had a different exam, I'm just glad that folks are able to test, get a license and join me in doing something that I love.
If everyone that is worried about improper operating and such were to change their approach to a positive one and encourage the newbies to follow good practice and teach them , and correct them with a kind tone, then I think things would change if that is a problem in their region of the country/world (where I live in North Texas, we don't have much trouble with Hams misbehaving). Most new hams I have met look to me to set the example, as I did when I was new and most all of them want to do things correctly, they WANT to fit in and be a part of the Ham community, not a thorn in our side.
I take my license seriously and I for one plan to follow the rules and be the best Ham I can be no matter what band I am on.
BTW, many Hams would be surprised at some of the technical knowledge of some cb'ers that I've met, the only things I had to study for when preparing for the test was phonetics and MPE (permissible exposure) and what bands were what and where I could operate, I knew all the electronics, ohms law and such and my exam proved it. Don't discount the cb people, many of them love radio like we (hams) do, they just haven't found their way yet to join us, or in some cases, they just haven't met a kind ham who took an interest in them and encouraged them to take the first step to study. Saying bad things about folks who are like us in that they have different aspects of cb, such as some of them are interested in how radio works and some just want to talk to to friends, but to lump them all into one group and call them bad or degrade them is not likely to make them want to join our ranks, rather it would make them want to dislike us and be the opposite of us. Sure, cb has no license, but that is how many folks/young people get their first taste of radio and the wonder it can bring, we should try and interact with them and behave in a professional manner, a cut above so to speak and the ones(cb'ers) who tire of lack of discipline on some channels might give Ham radio a thought. I've met several ex-cber's that became hams just because of the discipline that goes along with good Ham radio operation.

That's my $.02 worth...73' John Hamilton kd5inm
John, this is so well stated. Again, it's about the people involved in the various bands, not the bands themselves. Thank you for reminding me why I got into this hobby. 73

[N9CHZ]

Quote[/b] (V73NS @ Jan. 27 2005,21:47)]If you give something away... it no longer has any value and will be abused.

If the US drops code it will be a very dark day for the world. Just tune 27.555 and listen to the future of amateur radio.

KEEP THE CODE.
KEEP THE PRIDE.
Then the dark days are already here.... Just tune around 80 meter's and take a listen!!!

[W4DRA]

Good morning David KY1V
Let's analyze this piece by piece...and I won't even flame you for the dozen or so spelling errors...LOL

Guess I need to take a little more time when typing HUH http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Or maybe I need a spell checker, Anyway thank everyone for there comments and thoughts in this. I enjoyed each and every one of them.

Every one had a different thought, idea, or feeling towards this matter of code. And I can see where each and every one comes from. So what ever happens I wish the hobby the best, I enjoy it and that's what counts to me. When I stop enjoying it I will have a big yard sale. LOL

In the mean time I will keep working in the code and trying.
#
73's de W4DRA
Dave

[VE3BDB]

Those who have their transmission lines in a knot over the CW issue in Canada have apparently not read the announcement. #It says there is overwhelming support for dropping the Morse Code as a qualification requirement, not that such has occurred or even how it will occur. #

I sincerely hope it will not be by "grandfathering" current Basic Qualification (no-code) holders who, it should be obvious, were mainly responsible for the "overwhelming" support to drop the CW qualification. #However, I submit that many of the rest of us saw the writing on the wall and gave support in view of the OTHER recommendations by RAC and _conditional on those recommendations being acted upon by IC_.

Having said that, there can be little doubt that it WILL happen. #As a long-time CW operator (professionally, in the military and as a ham) I'm ambivalent about the issue and have no intention of entering into yet another "Code War". #

But I urge all to go and carefully read the OTHER recommendations put forward by Radio Amateurs of Canada (RAC) in regard to Amateur Radio qualifications in Canada. You might be pleasantly surprised. #You will also no doubt find it interesting to note that the two recommendations that did not receive "overwhelming" support were those directly affecting those who currently have the Basic (non-code) qualification. #I hope Industry Canada will see that for what it is.

If you can't locate it from the url indicated, go to www.rac.ca . #There's much more to this than meets the eye and the fear of many code-qualified operators in Canada is that IC will do nothing to reinforce the examination system so that HF is not turned into another CB (GRS in Canada) band.

73,

Bob
ve3bdb

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (W4DRA @ Jan. 27 2005,21:09)]And kc2kvz has a point. (QUOTE) What happened to the old tradition of HELPING new hams learn?

73's
W4DRA
Dunnellon, Florida
I suggested that on another forum and was promptly and rudely informed that this is not 30 years ago, this is TODAY. I suppose it is an obsolete idea, but I'm going to keep doing it anyway.

[W3NRL]

Wow so many comments and many, many flamming and cut throating.
Come on guys lets enjoy the hobby for what it is.
This hobby gives varity to everyone, no one is left out. And everyone has something to offer to each other no matter what your skill level is.. share what you know, this hobby is not about who can spell or proper grammer or who holds a higher ticket or who is the dummy or the genius of the ham community... Enjoy it, don't abuse it.
Leave the bad mouthing aside, Life is short, #ham radio is going to be here long after we are gone!!!

[KC7JTY]

Quote[/b] (w3nrl @ Jan. 27 2005,11:07)]#ham radio is going to be here long after we are gone!!!
I'd check the quality of your crystal ball supplier.

[W3NRL]

Bill where do you think ham radio is going? I didn't say it will be the same now then in years to come. I said ham radio is going to be here long after we are gone!!!

[KC7JTY]

Quote[/b] (w3nrl @ Jan. 27 2005,12:06)]Bill where do you think ham radio is going? I didn't say it will be the same now then in years to come. I said ham radio is going to be here long after we are gone!!!
Oh...OK. I guess 500khz of 2 meters ONLY WOULD qualify as ham radio's still being in existance.

[W3NRL]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Jan. 28 2005,07:13)]
Quote[/b] (w3nrl @ Jan. 27 2005,12:06)]Bill where do you think ham radio is going? I didn't say it will be the same now then in years to come. I said ham radio is going to be here long after we are gone!!!
Oh...OK. I guess 500khz of 2 meters ONLY WOULD qualify as ham radio's still being in existance.

Quote[/b] ]Oh...OK. I guess 500khz of 2 meters ONLY WOULD qualify as ham radio's still being in existance.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[KE4RWS]

A lot of posters here regarding this subject have been civil about their feelings. But somehow others seem to make two separate situations when the inevitable happens. Some don't care about the US eventually dropping the code while others do everything they can to beat down those who don't care to learn cw. There are several snide comments from people who claim they don't want 2-meter repeater operators on HF. So be it. But I think it also stands to reason that many people who operate above 50 MHz don't want certain HF operators on 2-meters either. Of course, I'm refering to those who feel their so much better than everyone else.

[K0RGR]

I think I am beginning to agree with the idea that the issue should not be code/no-code. I think it should be SSB/no-SSB. If you've passed a code test, or crossed some other hurdle beyond the basic entry level - such as attending a required course of study - you can work SSB on HF. If you haven't, you're restricted to non-voice modes only.

Huh?

If you're easily offended, don't read this, but one thing about CW and digital mode users that we know - they can read and write. If they couldn't they would not be able to use the mode. Digital users can at least type with two fingers at about 20 WPM. This requires an IQ of more than 100. SSB does not require this, and that is why SSB is where we would expect to see the most problems in our hobby, and certainly do.

I have no problem whatsoever with giving the current Technicians full CW and digital priveleges on HF. Only the smart ones who will be good operators will use the priveleges.

[VA3FD]

Quote[/b] (K7BEN @ Jan. 22 2005,19:50)]"#What separates us from CB, FRS,GMRS is that we care about radio. "


IMHO what seperates us from CB, FRS, GMRS is that we EARN our ticket, it is not a free ride. #CW is just one of the things we must profess to learn to (presently) get on HF. Yes, it involves study and time. #But isn't THAT what hamming is all about? #That we have taken the time to put some effort into getting our ticket and it's not handed out as a freebie. #Seems to me that a lot of the "abolish CW" crowd just don't want to be bothered taking a few evenings to learn something new. #(I didn't say everyone... but sure seems like a LOT of the folks who a abhor CW requirements are just looking for a free ride to HF). #And BTW... I am not a member of RAC because for the last few years they have opined that CW should be abolished... hey, abolish CW, make the ticket easier to get, and grab a whole bunch of new memberships! #That's a business mindset, not a hobby mindset. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

73 de Fred
VA3FD / KC2JMG

[KC7JTY]

Quote[/b] (w3nrl @ Jan. 27 2005,12:22)]
Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Jan. 28 2005,07:13)]
Quote[/b] (w3nrl @ Jan. 27 2005,12:06)]Bill where do you think ham radio is going? I didn't say it will be the same now then in years to come. I said ham radio is going to be here long after we are gone!!!
Oh...OK. I guess 500khz of 2 meters ONLY WOULD qualify as ham radio's still being in existance.

Quote[/b] ]Oh...OK. I guess 500khz of 2 meters ONLY WOULD qualify as ham radio's still being in existance.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
No new intellegence detected. Was it meant just to be a rehash of previously covered material?....OH WAIT......I see it now....the emodicon! Never mind.

[KC7JTY]

VA3FD:
Better hurry up and try to pull the plug. From what I hear Canada is gonna drop the Morse requirement.

[W3NRL]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Jan. 28 2005,09:16)]
Quote[/b] (w3nrl @ Jan. 27 2005,12:22)]
Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Jan. 28 2005,07:13)]
Quote[/b] (w3nrl @ Jan. 27 2005,12:06)]Bill where do you think ham radio is going? I didn't say it will be the same now then in years to come. I said ham radio is going to be here long after we are gone!!!
Oh...OK. I guess 500khz of 2 meters ONLY WOULD qualify as ham radio's still being in existance.

Quote[/b] ]Oh...OK. I guess 500khz of 2 meters ONLY WOULD qualify as ham radio's still being in existance.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
No new intellegence detected. Was it meant just to be a rehash of previously covered material?....OH WAIT......I see it now....the emodicon! Never mind.
[/QUOTE]No new intellegence detected. Was it meant just to be a rehash of previously covered material?....OH WAIT......I see it now....the emodicon! Never mind.
[QUOTE]
no brainer!!!!

[ki4hpz]

i am learing code, i do not plan to ever use it after i take the test. Like someone said, "...just a ritural from times past." I noticed that at our ARES meeting that only 1 or 2 rarely used the code. And the others do not remember it or plan on ever using it.

I have had the 3 ARRL EMCOMM courses.

My opinion is the code should be dropped, even if i pass it later. The general test as is covers so much BS no longer needed. I have a BS degree in Electronic. The BS should be sripped out and the EMCOMM 1 course stuff put in its place. That would make the general a more valuable ham user. As is, to many are just remember the answers.

I feel that the extra test should be modified to include all the EMCOMM course material, cover the CORE traning stuff, and remove the out of date suff removed.


This would make the general a community service certificate. To me, that is what ham is mainly about....

[KF1G]

There, Their, They're

Please use them correctly......

and don't worry about nothing, because nothing is going to be okay...

[K7FD]

No-coders should learn at least six letters:

. .

_ _

. _ . .

. _

_ _ . .

_ . _ _


73, John K7FD

[N0KLU]

Quote[/b] (k7fd @ Jan. 28 2005,11:28)]No-coders should learn at least six letters:

. .

_ _

. _ . .

. _

_ _ . .

_ . _ _


73, John K7FD
and you should know this:

..-

.-.

-.

.-

...

...

[ki4hpz]

The FCC would love to take the radio waves from hams. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif Keep us from complaining about BPL, etc. Right now, the only argument to keep our waves safe is community service. That is why changing the general to a service license is so important...and the code is like someone said, "just a mode", of communication and nothing more." The code is fine for those who want to use it, but should not be a requiement for the general license.

[ki4hpz]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Knowing code will not keep out waves safe from the FCC...Knowing how to serve in times of disasters will…



http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[K8RHE]

Quote[/b] ]Learning the code is like learning to shoe a horse to get a drivers license

Well said! #Maybe some of us 2 meter trash can get rid of the foul mouth HF opps! Let the games begin, boy what a way to talk down a fellow ham aww screw em the old goats will die soon and we can have HF!!.:p

[KB9KLC]

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Jan. 28 2005,12:03)]
Quote[/b] (W4DRA @ Jan. 27 2005,21:09)]And kc2kvz has a point. (QUOTE) What happened to the old tradition of HELPING new hams learn?

73's
W4DRA
Dunnellon, Florida
I suggested that on another forum and was promptly and rudely informed that this is not 30 years ago, this is TODAY. I suppose it is an obsolete idea, but I'm going to keep doing it anyway.
I'm not sure what 30 years ago has to do with helping today....That must be another quality forum. I too will keep helping in any way that I can. I had several friends interested till they came here to qrz........Good job people.

[WD5KCA]

Once again, the board owner trolls his own board!

[KB9KLC]

Quote[/b] (wd5kca @ Jan. 28 2005,23:22)]Once again, the board owner trolls his own board!
What does that mean?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?

[N8PDH]

I haven't used the code since i passed my 20 wpm for the Extra Class. Now that I have all of the freq privliges I hope that the FCC doesn't take them away us if they decide to drop the code.

[N7WSB]

Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 28 2005,21:43)]
Quote[/b] (wd5kca @ Jan. 28 2005,23:22)]Once again, the board owner trolls his own board!
What does that mean?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?
He's trying to say that the operator of qrz.com put this post on this board as a troll, failing to realize that a troll post is one intended to incite the reactionary portion of the qrz.com population for his own amuzement. Most people on here seem highly reactionary though, so trolling is a given.

This is just news - no more no less.

[ve6fet]

Ah hell I give up .... Lets keep the code with the following conditions

#In order to operate anywhere on the 20 metre Ham Band An operator must pass a yearly code test of sending and recieving at a speed of not less than 23 words per minute with a score of 100 percent

In order to operate #anywhere on the 40 metre Ham Band An Operater must pass a yearly code test of sending and recieving of not less than 26 words per minute with a score of 100 percent

#In order to operate anywhere on the 80 metre Ham Band An Operator must pass a yearly code test of sending and recieving at a speed not less than 30 words per minute with a score of 100 percent ..

#Failure of any of the above examinations requires a 1 year waiting period to retest, no exceptions..

#Now lets see how open the bands become

This should become a standard for all amateurs in the US and Canada

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # #Ed

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #VA6EF

[ve6fet]

So OK guys and gals

Now that we have set the standard's for amateur radio I suggest that all American Amateurs begin a letter writing campaine to all there senators and congressmen to have the FCC change the rules at one to the above mentioned standards...

And you Canadiens outthere lets all demand that our members of parliment amend the radio act at once and instruct Industry Canada Spectrum Management to begin these new standards April 1st 2005

Guys and Gals this is the only way to save amateur radio
Ed
VA6EF

[K5RNA]

So Canada plans to drop the code requirement? Now if we could only get the hams in the U.S.to drop the subject.

[AA8EK]

I say drop CW, ham radio needs to generate new hams and this is one way to get people interested in HF again. Use it or loose it as they say. It is all about money anyhow. Look at the high dollar rigs the manufacturers are marketing. If I was selling a ten thousand dollar ham radio the last thing I would want is for it to be harder to get a ham license.
The CW sections of the 40 meter band is dead most of the time late at night. Here it is Friday night and I have been calling CQ for an hour with no answers, that is because there is hardly anybody out there to answer me. If the phone sections of the HF bands become too crowded or noisey then maybe that will encourage some hams to learn CW. But we need to keep bringing in new hams and dropping the morse is one way to do just that.
It is just a matter of time and CW will no longer be a requirement to get on the HF bands and that will be a good thing for the hobby. I am a 20 WPM Extra who has had my Extra ticket about 12 years. I love CW and think people should want to learn it and not be required or forced to learn it. If they want to learn it there will be more qualified CW operators out there to talk to.

[KB9KLC]

Quote[/b] (n7wsb @ Jan. 29 2005,01:49)]
Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 28 2005,21:43)]
Quote[/b] (wd5kca @ Jan. 28 2005,23:22)]Once again, the board owner trolls his own board!
What does that mean?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?
He's trying to say that the operator of qrz.com put this post on this board as a troll, failing to realize that a troll post is one intended to incite the reactionary portion of the qrz.com population for his own amuzement. Most people on here seem highly reactionary though, so trolling is a given.

This is just news - no more no less.
OK thanks. I appreciate the explaination

[KB9KLC]

Quote[/b] (K8RHE @ Jan. 28 2005,22:26)]
Quote[/b] ]Learning the code is like learning to shoe a horse to get a drivers license

Well said! Maybe some of us 2 meter trash can get rid of the foul mouth HF opps! Let the games begin, boy what a way to talk down a fellow ham aww screw em the old goats will die soon and we can have HF!!.:p
Gee Maybe we ought to close this one out before someone says someting really hateful. I think this is sad. And the owner of this forum thinks the above post was "OK"http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[N9CJT]

I really appreciate the presence of this and other similar threads, and the service qrz.com provides the entire Amateur Radio fraternity by keeping the lids busy typing instead of jamming the airwaves.

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 28 2005,20:44)]
Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Jan. 28 2005,12:03)]
Quote[/b] (W4DRA @ Jan. 27 2005,21:09)]And kc2kvz has a point. (QUOTE) What happened to the old tradition of HELPING new hams learn?

73's
W4DRA
Dunnellon, Florida
I suggested that on another forum and was promptly and rudely informed that this is not 30 years ago, this is TODAY. #I suppose it is an obsolete idea, but I'm going to keep doing it anyway.
I'm not sure what 30 years ago has to do with helping today....That must be another quality forum. #I too will keep helping in any way that I can. #I had several friends interested till they came here to qrz........Good job people.
It has to do with the fact that a "beginner" back 30
#or 40 years held a NOVICE ticket, es was NOT a
#"general" or "extra" sans knowledge or experience,
#as is so common today.--Thats the problem,--when
#general`s and extra`s don`t #understand "basic
#electronics" themselves,--how can they teach?
#Might it have something to do with "jiffy
#cram and jam" classes, where a guy can guess
#his way through the exam--and doing away with
#the "traditional" novice License?
#Many of us "ol geezer`s" think it has, even though
#the ARRL says no,--gee I wonder why?
#"Get em in the door" anyway you can boys, es then
#let the "old timers" teach them--another ARRL
#philosophy.
# # # # # # # # # # # # #73, K1MVP http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KB9KLC]

Quote[/b] (K1MVP @ Jan. 29 2005,09:41)]
Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 28 2005,20:44)]
Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Jan. 28 2005,12:03)]
Quote[/b] (W4DRA @ Jan. 27 2005,21:09)]And kc2kvz has a point. (QUOTE) What happened to the old tradition of HELPING new hams learn?

73's
W4DRA
Dunnellon, Florida
I suggested that on another forum and was promptly and rudely informed that this is not 30 years ago, this is TODAY. I suppose it is an obsolete idea, but I'm going to keep doing it anyway.
I'm not sure what 30 years ago has to do with helping today....That must be another quality forum. I too will keep helping in any way that I can. I had several friends interested till they came here to qrz........Good job people.
It has to do with the fact that a "beginner" back 30
or 40 years held a NOVICE ticket, es was NOT a
"general" or "extra" sans knowledge or experience,
as is so common today.--Thats the problem,--when
general`s and extra`s don`t understand "basic
electronics" themselves,--how can they teach?
Might it have something to do with "jiffy
cram and jam" classes, where a guy can guess
his way through the exam--and doing away with
the "traditional" novice License?
Many of us "ol geezer`s" think it has, even though
the ARRL says no,--gee I wonder why?
"Get em in the door" anyway you can boys, es then
let the "old timers" teach them--another ARRL
philosophy.
73, K1MVP http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Rene, while I agree in part with what you said, I'm not sure that tells the whole story. Although only licensed in 95 rest assured I have more than a "basic knowledge of electronics."
I guess we could go ahead and say they never should have changed the classes and or testing procedures to begin with. Of course I agree but what is done is done.
None of this means we shouldn't help the guys today. From your biography you seem to be in a unique position to teach and assist. I am, of course, sure you do this whenever the opportunity presents itself. I know I do. Good hamming om and hope to catch you on the air sometime qrp cw.

[VE3RPF]

Quote[/b] (K4HCA @ Jan. 21 2005,20:37)]Who cares what the Canadians think. I don't know of a single, solitary thing that the Canadians have ever come up with that would make the United States a better place. They are just a micro-second removed from socialism.

If a prospective amateur doesn't care enough to get a 5 WPM license, he/she isn't going to contribute to the Amateur Service anyway. Who needs them.

Harold K4HCA

Long
[QUOTE]Who cares what the Canadians think. I don't know of a single, solitary thing that the Canadians have ever come up with that would make the United States a better place. They are just a micro-second removed from socialism.

That's nice.
Ignorance must be bliss in your house hold!
Very proud to be a Canadian and Proud to call many Americans friends.

The code is going to go even in the US. The writting is on the wall. The good part in all this is that you can still use the code it you like and I like CW very much.

Robert VE3RPF

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (pe0cj @ Jan. 29 2005,08:16)]If you ask your european HAM friends, you'll find out it works just fine overhere. Maybe you've worked one yourself allready on HF. And ... did you noticed any difference ?
Maybe it has to to with "expectations" of an amateur
radio.--years ago, one expected a ham radio operator,
to be more than just an "operator",--he was also
expected to be able to do more than just hook up
a prefab antenna es microphone.
An amateur was expected to be able to "know"
something about electronics es thus "contibute" to
the craft.
If one believe`s that all that is required is to be
an "operator", then "watering down" requirements
and deleting cw will be no problem.

# # # # # # # # # # # # #73`s, K1MVP # # # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[K1MVP]

KB9KLC,

#Just a "note" to let you know I DO NOT fault the
#newcomer for this "mess".
#Yes I am in the process of helping a "newcomer"
# es I know others who are great guys, es help
# whenever I can, but I DO fault the "system" for
# not teaching or empasizing the "basics" es
# continuing to deny any problem, other than "the
# numbers are down". etc, etc,(and I don`t believe
# I have to mention who is in charge of the "system)

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # 73`s, K1MVP # # # #
# # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KB9KLC]

K1MVP,
No you don't need to mention who's in charge of the "system". Best to you om and indeed hope to work you soon. Although I live in a apartment complex, I do the best I can with what I have to work with. (a lot of qrp cw spoken here) LOL.
73 de KB9KLC

[KC7JTY]

Quote[/b] (ki4hpz @ Jan. 27 2005,19:19)]should not be a requiement for the general license.
should not be a requirement for anything.

[KC7JTY]

Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 27 2005,21:44)]#I had several friends interested till they came here to qrz........Good job people.
There are those who have the ability to never discern the truth. Many of whom live in a wonderland of bliss. Others, however, upon seeing it in a timely manner are able to make wise decisions that can save a lot of time and effort spent pursuing something that wasn't what they thought it would be.

[KC7JTY]

Quote[/b] (n8pdh @ Jan. 27 2005,22:55)]I haven't used the code since i passed my 20 wpm for the Extra Class. Now that I have all of the freq privliges I hope that the FCC doesn't take them away us if they decide to drop the code.
What does this mean?

[KC7JTY]

Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 28 2005,05:17)]
Quote[/b] (K8RHE @ Jan. 28 2005,22:26)]
Quote[/b] ]Learning the code is like learning to shoe a horse to get a drivers license

Well said! #Maybe some of us 2 meter trash can get rid of the foul mouth HF opps! Let the games begin, boy what a way to talk down a fellow ham aww screw em the old goats will die soon and we can have HF!!.:p
Gee Maybe we ought to close this one out before someone says someting really hateful. #I think this is sad. And the owner of this forum thinks the above post was "OK"http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Mommie mommie I saw jonnie's duehickey.....lets cut it off so it doesn't happen again!

[W5NL]

Well, here's how I see it. It's all about how bad you want it. I could have resorted to the same bitching and moaning and making excuses why not to pass element 1 but I wanted to earn my extra class so guess what? I put down the excuse book and picked up the key and learned the code. I couldn't give 2 dits and dah about CW and I haven't used it since. But I have full HF priviledges. It wasn't that hard. It was harder to come up with all new excuses not to do it. Those waiting for the rules to change to get on HF are still waiting . It's been 2 years since WRC '03 and element 1 is still required. I personally don't see it happening and while you folks are waiting, I'll be on HF enjoying the fruits of my labor.

[KC7JTY]

Quote[/b] (WS5X @ Jan. 28 2005,13:17)]while you folks are waiting, I'll be on HF enjoying the fruits of my labor.
Yes...with a brown nose.

[KC7JTY]

Waiting for what? If the Morse req. was dropped tomorrow I don't know if it would make much of a difference to my doing anything.

[KB9KLC]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Jan. 29 2005,14:12)]
Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 28 2005,05:17)]
Quote[/b] (K8RHE @ Jan. 28 2005,22:26)]
Quote[/b] ]Learning the code is like learning to shoe a horse to get a drivers license

Well said! Maybe some of us 2 meter trash can get rid of the foul mouth HF opps! Let the games begin, boy what a way to talk down a fellow ham aww screw em the old goats will die soon and we can have HF!!.:p
Gee Maybe we ought to close this one out before someone says someting really hateful. I think this is sad. And the owner of this forum thinks the above post was "OK"http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Mommie mommie I saw jonnie's duehickey.....lets cut it off so it doesn't happen again!
Just cause you're a spoiled brat doesn't mean I have to be. Have a nice day http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[K2BT]

I HAVE MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS (MS) IT'S CAUSED COGNITIVE AND MEMORY PROBLEMS. I MANAGED TO PASS WRITTEN PART AFTER A YEAR OF VIDEOS AND ONLINE TEST.---------------------------------------I have MS too and have the same problem. I try and try to learn cw but the brain says no. They don't have my CDL yet 'cause I haven't told them, but I don't drive anymore anyway. I feel for you brother!

[KB9KLC]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Jan. 29 2005,14:03)]
Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 27 2005,21:44)] I had several friends interested till they came here to qrz........Good job people.
There are those who have the ability to never discern the truth. Many of whom live in a wonderland of bliss. Others, however, upon seeing it in a timely manner are able to make wise decisions that can save a lot of time and effort spent pursuing something that wasn't what they thought it would be.
A wonderland of code dropping waiters perhaps???

[W5NL]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Jan. 29 2005,12:21)]
Quote[/b] (WS5X @ Jan. 28 2005,13:17)]while you folks are waiting, I'll be on HF enjoying the fruits of my labor.
Yes...with a brown nose.
Then why are you posting on this topic. So it's not the code it's just the effort altogether.

Don't be a lid. I spend more time on 2 than I do on HF. But I CAN go there.

[W5NL]

Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 29 2005,12:26)]
Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Jan. 29 2005,14:12)]
Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 28 2005,05:17)]
Quote[/b] (K8RHE @ Jan. 28 2005,22:26)]
Quote[/b] ]Learning the code is like learning to shoe a horse to get a drivers license

Well said! #Maybe some of us 2 meter trash can get rid of the foul mouth HF opps! Let the games begin, boy what a way to talk down a fellow ham aww screw em the old goats will die soon and we can have HF!!.:p
Gee Maybe we ought to close this one out before someone says someting really hateful. #I think this is sad. And the owner of this forum thinks the above post was "OK"http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Mommie mommie I saw jonnie's duehickey.....lets cut it off so it doesn't happen again!
Just cause you're a spoiled brat doesn't mean I have to be. Have a nice day #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
You will be a brat with an expired license soon. That takes effort too. Can you handle it?

[WX5AAA]

Quote[/b] (vk3txz @ Jan. 22 2005,08:47)]Learning the code is like learning to shoe a horse to get a drivers license
an old grumpy horse.....

[VE7HJ]

Morse Code "A"

I have been a licensed ham since 1979 I only passed my CW a few years back. I do not believe that the dropping of the Morse Code requirement will prevent poor operating practices. I have met many long time hams from around the world who do not use CW. In yet they were required to learn it at much higher speeds then today’s 5-WPM.

I can also say that poor operating practices, like tuning up on top of other stations in a DX pile up is happening by operators who have held HF licenses for decades.

Maybe encouraging new hams to learn more about good operating practices, rules, regulations and traditions would prevent the issues we fear most.

I for one think that CW is language, so teach it as such. It is a language that can be very intimidating if sent too fast. And trust me I have had many hams respond to my CQ's at 20-30 wpm, when I am sending at 10 wpm. #

There are many smart people in the world today who are unable to learn a second language. Should they not be given a chance to participate in a great hobby and public service during a disaster? Let’s not make ham radio a private club where discrimination of others is accepted.

Morse Code is an International language and should be taught with that in mind. The new hams that take the time to learn it will have a language that will allow them to communicate with others around the world.

Can we not improve the hobby by encouragement instead of discouragement?

VE7HJ

[W7DME]

Quote[/b] (kl7uhf @ Jan. 29 2005,12:36)][quote=vk3txz,Jan. 22 2005,08:47]Learning the code is like learning to shoe a horse to get a drivers license
Adding my two cents worth. Using this kind of an anology is like saying that to get a drivers license you have to learn to change the spark plugs in your car. Stupid reasoning! Even when people relied on horses for transpertation some chose to rely on tradesmen to do their horseshoeing for them, and this is a maintenance issue, not a learning or skill issue. But, you can bet that you need to know how to use the breaks and turn signals as well as to know and use, if needed the hand signals (for vehicles without modern turn signals) to get a drivers license in this country.

In fact, if you have turn signals on a car here in the U.S., they are required to work. That is a better anology to CW in Ham radio. If you have the legal right to use it, you should be tested on whether or not you know how to.

If the FCC removes the CW requirment, then they should make it an illegal mode of communications because they are not testing on it like they do with all the other modes. Also, that would make more room for all of the "Legitimate" modes.

So, by your reasoning, lets require breaks on cars, but not require drivers to know how to use them. (whether or not they do at present is another issue).

Stop and think things through before you use a lame example like that. There are more and better reasons one could use to argue against CW, not that I would buy them either!

Just for the record, I am for keeping the CW testing and the CW bands. I do agree that 13 or 20 WPM may not be necessary, but some knowledge at least. I said the above about doing away with the bands to keep your interest!

73,

Mike - K7OV

[W7DME]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Jan. 29 2005,12:03)]
Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 27 2005,21:44)]#I had several friends interested till they came here to qrz........Good job people.
If your "friends" were turned off by Hams expressing their opinions about something that effects all of us in one way or another, maybe they need to find another hobby anyway! I am all for promoting Ham radio, but like the old saying goes, don't throw the Baby out with the bath water! What that means in my application, is don't deregulate to the point that the hobby is no longer what it was designed to be in the first place, a technical hobby. All of the other things non technical, are just icing on the cake.

People of all walks of life express their opinions about various subjects on various forums and do so with some very pointed lanquage sometimes. If these "Friends" of yours are intimidated by this forum and choose to put a bad light on ham radio because of it, then maybe they have a little growing up to do. But, I suspect that maybe their feeling about this may be influenced by your opinions and vocalizations, and thus, the culprit here is not us or them, but you, because you didn't defend the ham radio operators right to express his opinon on a forum designed to do just that. Whether you, or I for that matter, agree with any topic or observations by another fellow ham, should not make any difference to anyone over the age of 5 or 6. Like all things in life, they can just "turn it off" like I do when I hear something I find distasteful on the air. Or, if they disagree, they can exercise their freedom of expression that we have in this country and vent their own spleens. Don't try to make us feel guilty over someone elses failings. It's time to Grow up!

73,

Mike - K7OV

[KC7JTY]

Quote[/b] (WS5X @ Jan. 28 2005,13:34)]You will be a brat with an expired license soon. That takes effort too. Can you handle it?
I&#39;ve been struggling with that for over a month now. Leaving it till the last minute gives all those who look up my call and CLASS on QRZ (and whose eyes light up when they see the <span style='color:red'>RED PRINT</span>) a chance to moan about it here.

[W7DME]

Quote[/b] (K1MVP @ Jan. 29 2005,09:34)]
Quote[/b] (pe0cj @ Jan. 29 2005,08:16)]If you ask your european HAM friends, you&#39;ll find out it works just fine overhere. Maybe you&#39;ve worked one yourself allready on HF. And ... did you noticed any difference ?
Maybe it has to to with "expectations" of an amateur
radio.--years ago, one expected a ham radio operator,
to be more than just an "operator",--he was also
expected to be able to do more than just hook up
a prefab antenna es microphone.
An amateur was expected to be able to "know"
something about electronics es thus "contibute" to
the craft.
If one believe`s that all that is required is to be
an "operator", then "watering down" requirements
and deleting cw will be no problem.

# # # # # # # # # # # # #73`s, K1MVP # # # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Well said. Just to add to your comment, there was a time not so long ago, before the 80&#39;s when just holding a general class license or higher could get you a job in the industry. But, times change, and so, maybe the technology has passed us by as "technicians". If so, I doubt that we will be able to justify the number of bands and frequencies we currently hold. I beleive that sometime in the not so distant future, the commercial interests will be able to take our spectrum one bite at a time. BPL is an example where the FCC is showing signs of not protecting us as a service any longer. It will get worse.

73,

Mike - K7OV

[W7DME]

Quote[/b] (ki4hpz @ Jan. 28 2005,14:40)]i am learing code, i do not plan to ever use it after i take the test. Like someone said, "...just a ritural from times past." I noticed that at our ARES meeting that only 1 or 2 rarely used the code. #And the others do not remember it or plan on ever using it.

I have had the 3 ARRL EMCOMM courses.

My opinion is the code should be dropped, even if i pass it later. The general test as is covers so much BS no longer needed. #I have a BS degree in Electronic. The BS should be sripped out and the EMCOMM 1 course stuff put in its place. That would make the general a more valuable ham user. As is, to many are just remember the answers.

I feel that the extra test should be modified to include all the EMCOMM course material, cover the CORE traning stuff, and remove the out of date suff removed.


This would make the general a community service certificate. To me, that is what ham is mainly about....
No offense, but if you have a B.S. degree ( I assume you mean Bachelor of Science) wasn&#39;t English a requirement? Perhaps you got it in another country where the requirements were different. Which disipline was it in?

Just curious,

Mike - K7OV

[KC7JTY]

Quote[/b] ]
Adding my two cents worth. Using this kind of an anology is like saying that to get a drivers license you have to learn to change the spark plugs in your car.
False...cars HAVE spark plugs.

Quote[/b] ]
Stupid reasoning&#33; Even when people relied on horses for transpertation
I don&#39;t know what that is but I&#39;m sure the horse would reject the opportunity if given the choice. Trans spert&#33;&#33;?? Not beastiality I hope.

[KB9KLC]

Quote[/b] (k7ov @ Jan. 29 2005,16:45)]
Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Jan. 29 2005,12:03)]
Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 27 2005,21:44)] I had several friends interested till they came here to qrz........Good job people.
If your "friends" were turned off by Hams expressing their opinions about something that effects all of us in one way or another, maybe they need to find another hobby anyway&#33; I am all for promoting Ham radio, but like the old saying goes, don&#39;t throw the Baby out with the bath water&#33; What that means in my application, is don&#39;t deregulate to the point that the hobby is no longer what it was designed to be in the first place, a technical hobby. All of the other things non technical, are just icing on the cake.

People of all walks of life express their opinions about various subjects on various forums and do so with some very pointed lanquage sometimes. If these "Friends" of yours are intimidated by this forum and choose to put a bad light on ham radio because of it, then maybe they have a little growing up to do. But, I suspect that maybe their feeling about this may be influenced by your opinions and vocalizations, and thus, the culprit here is not us or them, but you, because you didn&#39;t defend the ham radio operators right to express his opinon on a forum designed to do just that. Whether you, or I for that matter, agree with any topic or observations by another fellow ham, should not make any difference to anyone over the age of 5 or 6. Like all things in life, they can just "turn it off" like I do when I hear something I find distasteful on the air. Or, if they disagree, they can exercise their freedom of expression that we have in this country and vent their own spleens. Don&#39;t try to make us feel guilty over someone elses failings. It&#39;s time to Grow up&#33;

73,

Mike - K7OV
OK well number one, I never wanted the hobby deregulated. It wasn&#39;t broken with the licensing structure that was in place. Neither my friends nor I have any growing up to do. My only mistake was recomending this sight for them to find information on ham radio. Some people don&#39;t take part in forums here or elsewhere for that matter.
Now then...you have no idea about my part in ham radio and I don&#39;t yours, so we won&#39;t even go there. My friends have NEVER heard me say anything bad about the hobby I&#39;ve grown to love.
Technical hobby??? OK been lots of that in this thread. bickering and flaming perhaps, but I don&#39;t think the technical value of this thread has been too great.
As far as turn it off, well that&#39;s the best idea yet. You take care and 73 hope to catch you on the air. Much better conditions there I would think.
Greg

[KB8RTZ]

folks, the year is 2005. the last 20 years have brought about significant change in technology. we are a user society now since many technologies have become sophisticatedly advanced. gone are the days of buying and building kits for our own radios. sure, there are qrp&#39;ers who offer kits for simple qrp cw (and ssb?) operation. and there are those (qrp flying pig i believe) who strive to make their little homebrews ever smaller or make their own cw keys, and even those who still craft their own hf amplifiers.

the point being is that even though we are a user society, the technologies involved in making today&#39;s radios is well beyond what the vast majority of us, and all of you old timers should agree, can build.

so what does this have to do with cw requirements? times have changed. cw is a nice form of communication with a world-wide universality, preceding the days of am, ssb, and fm. it is the main form of communication for moon-bounce. it is the preferred form of communication when conditions for phone operation are poor. but it does not promote technology as technology is known today.

the fcc mandates that i now have to copy 5 wpm morse to operate on the hf bands. nobody ever sat me in front of a radio to be sure when i operated phone that i knew how to set my mic gain so i didn&#39;t exceed the maximum bandwidth. nobody ever tested my proficiency using oscilloscopes and rf measuring equipment so i knew how to properly connect and use them.

see, the fact is that even though all, well many, of us who passed any or all elements are not in any way, shape or form classified as electronics technicians or experts in today&#39;s world. the amateur bands are structured to preserve and outdated mode that is rarely used in emergency situations. (note: RARELY)

yes, i subscribe to a few amateur radio lists, every so often the code-no-code discussion appears. what i read from many many many well experienced cw operators is that new cw operators can&#39;t send code worth a darn. so why don&#39;t these people who are so bent out of shape about new cw operators sending bad code help them out instead of discouraging them from keying? two-way street folks.

to end my rant i would propose to open more of our cw portions to phone, preserving a little for cw. remember, cw requires very little bandwidth (500hz). we can fit a lot of cw into a little bandwidth and still be happy. lets align ourselves with the rest of the world.

last thing to remember, people: even though we strive to help those in times of need, promote amateur radio as it should be - FUN&#33; if you can&#39;t enjoy yourselves and can&#39;t make it enjoyable for the rest of us, please do us a favor and cease communications.

73...patrick...kb8rtz...

[K5CO]

Well, I also know how to shoe a horse and change spark plugs. But there sure are a lot of guys that are too dim to see the purpose of learning code. Forget about them, it is their loss, not mine.

[VE7NGR]

Quote[/b] (KB8RTZ @ Jan. 29 2005,16:13)]gone are the days of buying and building kits for our own radios.

the technologies involved in making today&#39;s radios is well beyond what the vast majority of us, and all of you old timers should agree, can build.
My base rig is a 100W, all mode, all band, DSP, computer-controlled, etc. radio with a receiver that will beat the pants off of the best that YaeComWood has to offer. Built from a kit 6 months ago - and the vast majority of us would be able to build it successfully.

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (k7ov @ Jan. 29 2005,14:54)]An amateur was expected to be able to "know"
something about electronics es thus "contibute" to
the craft.
If one believe`s that all that is required is to be
an "operator", then "watering down" requirements
and deleting cw will be no problem.

# # # # # # # # # # # # #73`s, K1MVP # # # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Well said. Just to add to your comment, there was a time not so long ago, before the 80&#39;s when just holding a general class license or higher could get you a job in the industry. But, times change, and so, maybe the technology has passed us by as "technicians". If so, I doubt that we will be able to justify the number of bands and frequencies we currently hold. I beleive that sometime in the not so distant future, the commercial interests will be able to take our spectrum one bite at a time. BPL is an example where the FCC is showing signs of not protecting us as a service any longer. It will get worse.

73,

Mike - K7OV[/quote]
Exactly,(on a general or higher ticket) being "meaningful"

Employers back years ago did regard the holder of an
amateur ticket as a "plus" es if it was on a resume back
then,--it gave the ham an "edge" over the non-ham
applying for a technical job.
I can attest to this, as back in the late 60`s I was
able to acquire an electronics tech position,(with HP)
through an entrance exam, es the fact that I held an
an ham ticket "cinched" the offer of a job.
The military also regarded an amateur ticket back
then, as an asset,--nowadays it means very little,
to employers and the military.--things have changed.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # 73`s, K1MVP
# # #

# # # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[K1LWI]

Quote[/b] (Kd5tef @ Jan. 22 2005,22:43)]I am a tech I think every ham operater should know the code I have studied long and hard and I think it should be a requirement everywhere. People are lazy if they want to be ham operater must be true to the core 100% javascript:emoticon(&#39;http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif&#39;)
smilie
you are right http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[K1LWI]

Quote[/b] (ki4hpz @ Jan. 28 2005,18:43)]http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Knowing code will not keep out waves safe from the FCC...Knowing how to serve in times of disasters will…



http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
read n1ea bio qrz.com cw work all other mode did not http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (K1MVP @ Jan. 29 2005,09:34)]prefab antenna es microphone.
What is a "prefab antenna es microphone"http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif? Wait, I think I guessed it.

Gentlemen, to pick a CW "nit": ditdididit is NOT "es" (that would be dit dididit - notice the spacing). It is "&" (the ampersand). You have that key on your keyboard, please use it. It is confusing to try to translate nonwords ("es"... what language is that? Spanish, I think...).

And I&#39;m not picking on anyone, just trying to be helpful to new hams, even though that is an obsolete idea.

[K6UEY]

Interesting comments,but one thing I see there is a tendenacy to give the impression that the world has changed,which it may well have in it&#39;s opinion of Amateur Radio.

Chronologically I believe it was Amateur Radio that changed,leading to a reassesment of their opinions.

Amateur Radio was but no longer is a Technical Fraternity whose members shared a bond of common interest in the Art of Radio Communications.

That interest has over the years,been diluted,debased, disenfranchised, to an unrecognizeable HOBBY.

Even today licensed Hams are openly stating their only interest is "shooting skip"and making friends in a lonely hearts society.If some one mentions learning CW,some thing that has been a standard practice from day one,or if it is questioned about their technical ability they immediately become offensive as though some one has insulted them.

Some say it must have changed with the new century,you got that right baby, it NO LONGER resembles Amateur Radio,and shortly the 21st Century crowd will get bored and move on to another "HOBBY"and the foundation they so willing let crumble will no longer support the Facade.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Jan. 29 2005,18:31)]
Quote[/b] (K1MVP @ Jan. 29 2005,09:34)]prefab antenna es microphone.
What is a "prefab antenna es microphone"http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif? #Wait, I think I guessed it.

Gentlemen, to pick a CW "nit": #ditdididit is NOT "es" (that would be dit dididit - notice the spacing). #It is "&" (the ampersand). #You have that key on your keyboard, please use it. #It is confusing to try to translate nonwords ("es"... what language is that? Spanish, I think...).

And I&#39;m not picking on anyone, just trying to be helpful to new hams, even though that is an obsolete idea.
Talk about "nit-picking"--Please excuse my lack of
"gramatical correctness",--Most(CW) old timers would
have no problem with the old "cw shorthand", or is
it that in the new computer age, with these keyboards
it`s no longer "permissable"?
How about "cuagn sn" AND "fb om",or "cul",--gee what
language is this?
#not on my keyboard either,--I wonder why?
#And they wonder why we are losing the sense of
"ham fraternity"? --It`s no wonder to me.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # #73`s(oops, not correct)
# # # # # # # # # # # # # #Best Regards, K1MVP

#P.S, maybe its the new "politically correct" ham
# # # #that can`t understand

[N1XHF]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Jan. 28 2005,19:47)]Interesting comments,but one thing I see there is a tendenacy to give the impression that the world has changed,which it may well have in it&#39;s opinion of Amateur Radio.

Chronologically I believe it was Amateur Radio that changed,leading to a reassesment of their opinions.

Amateur Radio was but no longer is a Technical Fraternity whose members shared a bond of common interest in the Art of Radio Communications.

That interest has over the years,been diluted,debased, disenfranchised, to an unrecognizeable HOBBY.

Even today licensed Hams are openly stating their only interest is "shooting skip"and making friends in a lonely hearts society.If some one mentions learning CW,some thing that has been a standard practice from day one,or if it is questioned about their technical ability they immediately become offensive as though some one has insulted them.

Some say it must have changed with the new century,you got that right baby, it NO LONGER resembles Amateur Radio,and shortly the 21st Century crowd will get bored and move on to another "HOBBY"and the foundation they so willing let crumble will no longer support the Facade.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
Maybe the amateur radio as you know it but not the way the majority see it.

[VE3XEM]

I wonder how many of the pro-CW folks out there that rail about how awful the bands will be if there are no code requirements, could build a CW transceiver?

The hobby is not about code, but experimentation, exploration, communication and friendship. If you love CW, use it. If you don&#39;t, then don&#39;t. We all worry about the increasing age and decreasing numbers in our hobby . . . I believe anything we can do to make it more attractive is worthwhile.

73, Pete
VE3XEM (Basic, Advanced, AND Code&#33;)

[KB9KLC]

Quote[/b] (K1MVP @ Jan. 29 2005,22:19)]
Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Jan. 29 2005,18:31)]
Quote[/b] (K1MVP @ Jan. 29 2005,09:34)]prefab antenna es microphone.
What is a "prefab antenna es microphone"http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif? Wait, I think I guessed it.

Gentlemen, to pick a CW "nit": ditdididit is NOT "es" (that would be dit dididit - notice the spacing). It is "&" (the ampersand). You have that key on your keyboard, please use it. It is confusing to try to translate nonwords ("es"... what language is that? Spanish, I think...).

And I&#39;m not picking on anyone, just trying to be helpful to new hams, even though that is an obsolete idea.
Talk about "nit-picking"--Please excuse my lack of
"gramatical correctness",--Most(CW) old timers would
have no problem with the old "cw shorthand", or is
it that in the new computer age, with these keyboards
it`s no longer "permissable"?
How about "cuagn sn" AND "fb om",or "cul",--gee what
language is this?
not on my keyboard either,--I wonder why?
And they wonder why we are losing the sense of
"ham fraternity"? --It`s no wonder to me.

73`s(oops, not correct)
Best Regards, K1MVP

P.S, maybe its the new "politically correct" ham
that can`t understand
This might help..." It is interesting to note
that the Amateur Radio codes "73" (best wishes) and "88" (love and kisses), are
believed to have been first used by American railway telegragh operators during the
nineteenth century and the CW abbreviation for "and" is "es", which is actually
the old American land-line telegraphy code group for the ampersand (&)." So it is es and means the ampersand too.
I think four dits together is the letter H.(no matter how you type it) So what I&#39;ve proved here is you&#39;re both right. Lots of phrases and abbreviations are used in cw. tnx fer qso is common. all of the ones mentioned by K1MVP are also common. I wouldn&#39;t want to loose the abbreviations and phrases that have been used for years and years, and I don&#39;t think anyone using cw would suddlen want to change all that either. 73 and yes it&#39;s ok to say that. Greg

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (K1MVP @ Jan. 29 2005,20:19)]Most(CW) old timers would
have no problem with the old "cw shorthand", or is
it that in the new computer age, with these keyboards
it`s no longer "permissable"? # # # # # # # # # # # # # #73`s(oops, not correct)
# # # # # # # # # # # # # #Best Regards, K1MVP
Actually, in case you haven&#39;t noticed, I am a CW "old timer" and I was taught back in the 50s when I first learned it (as a Boy Scout) and in the early 70s when I got my license, to write & when I heard that sound. "es" does not mean "and". "&" does.

Didn&#39;t mean to upset you, OM, but there have been several comments on here about hams not helping each other and I don&#39;t like "not helping". If we advocate the value of CW, then we should use it correctly.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 29 2005,21:29)]How about "cuagn sn" AND "fb om",or "cul",--gee what
language is this?
Interesting to note that the Amateur Radio codes "73" (best wishes) and "88" (love and kisses), are
believed to have been first used by American railway telegragh operators during the
nineteenth century and the CW abbreviation for "and" is "es", which is actually
the old American land-line telegraphy code group for the ampersand (&)." #So it is es and means the ampersand too.
I think four dits together is the letter H.(no matter how you type it) #So what I&#39;ve proved here is you&#39;re both right. #Lots of phrases and abbreviations are used in cw. #tnx fer qso is common. #all of the ones mentioned by K1MVP are also common. #I wouldn&#39;t want to loose the abbreviations and phrases that have been used for years and years, and I don&#39;t think anyone using cw would suddlen want to change all that either. #73 and yes it&#39;s ok to say that. #Greg
Nothing wrong with 73, 88, cu agn, fb om and all the abbreviations that have come into use. They are a valued part of the language and are universally understood. "wx hr" for "weather here is" and many more have crept in and made the exchange of information flow more smoothly. I don&#39;t think there is anything wrong with any of them, including "Q" signals and they are fine on fone, too. You are right, I wouldn&#39;t want to lose them.

But "H" sounds like didididit... all run together evenly.
"&" is ditdididit, with a smaller space than the separate letters "e" and "s". Yes, it is from the old railroad telegraphy, when there were sounders, not buzzers, and all sounds were short... no "dah"s.

And yes, it is a fine point, just a detail and not worth getting upset over. Sorry if I offended, but I was trying to be as helpful as W4KMK (one of my Elmers) was to me many years ago.

73 & GL, Jim

[KB9KLC]

Jim,
Tnx & 73 to you too..I hope you (& I ) will always continue to help when we can...I appreciate the info, and the history. I actually learned about the ampersand.

K1MVP,
Take care OM hpe to cu sn on the air.
Greg

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Jan. 29 2005,21:29)]
Quote[/b] (K1MVP @ Jan. 29 2005,20:19)]Most(CW) old timers would
have no problem with the old "cw shorthand", or is
it that in the new computer age, with these keyboards
it`s no longer "permissable"? # # # # # # # # # # # # # #73`s(oops, not correct)
# # # # # # # # # # # # # #Best Regards, K1MVP
Actually, in case you haven&#39;t noticed, I am a CW "old timer" and I was taught back in the 50s when I first learned it (as a Boy Scout) and in the early 70s when I got my license, to write & when I heard that sound. #"es" does not mean "and". #"&" does.

Didn&#39;t mean to upset you, OM, but there have been several comments on here about hams not helping each other and I don&#39;t like "not helping". #If we advocate the value of CW, then we should use it correctly.
To myself es many others, this would be called a form
of being "picky". --As far as helping newcomer`s,--
this is a sensitive subject, as far as I am concerned
because of the ARRL`s stance on what I consider
"watered down" exam requirements.
This issue came to my attention a couple of years ago
in a "personal" way, as I was asked by a then recently
licensed ham for assistance in setting up a vintage
station, of which I was more than happy to do.
I have been involved for the past 2 years as a "mentor"
and,(es) whichever, in teaching him basic electronics,
as we knew it back in the "old days".
Let me say, that I DO NOT blame the newcomer,
for the lack of traditional basics, BUT I do fault the
"system" of weekend "jiffy classes" that just teach
the test.
I think instructing a newcomer in the proper use of
#"and" or "es" is quite minor when there is a much
bigger issue, at hand,--and that is teaching them
"basic electronics", which in my opinion and many
other`s, the ARRL and NCVEC has not in the past
number of years.--This is what will effect ham radio
in the long run much more profoundly, than the use
of "es" or "and",-- IMO and others.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # #73, K1MVP # # # # # # # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KG4MMY]

Quote[/b] (KB9YZE @ Jan. 22 2005,19:18)]Last time I checked you didn&#39;t need to be tested to be on the CB.
What testing are you referring to? Do you mean the memory excercise that the feds pass off as testing to get an Amateur license? You can&#39;t mean that. A test is supposed to be a method of proving competency in a given discipline. The amateur radio examinations, and I mean all of them, from the 5 wpm code to the Amateur Extra are, now, all simply excercises in memorization. There are no skills demonstrated,(unless you want to call 5 wpm morse, or an ability to memorize a list of answers, a skill). There are no formulas to prove by showing your work, no circuits to draw and then explain; you simply fill out the answer sheet with the words you&#39;ve memorized and hand it in. What a grand acheivement&#33;&#33; #
# #The true question in the "code, no code" debate is not a matter of retaining the code or letting it slide into the past. It is the desire by the dwindling few to require something, ANYTHING, that can can be seen as "earning" the ticket, instead of simply having it handed to you. It seems,though, that the majority of people today are no longer interested in doing anything that might require the smallest amount of effort to achieve. # #
# #If you simply want to talk to somebody, get a cell phone; but if you truly want to be a Ham, then join with those of us who wish to bring back some small level of competency and expertise to the hobby. I would suggest the following as a good starting point for revamping the testing program for Amateurs:

1.) Give examinations in which the answers are not known beforehand. (A real no brainer&#33;)

2.) Retain the code requirement, and increase the speed to at least 12 wpm. (Not because CW is, or is not, particularly useful in todays communications environment, but because it ties the old with the new. It is THE ritual of Amateur radio. It is our a rite of passage; and, simply put, it&#39;s HARD&#33;)

3.) Require all problems given on the test to include, along with the correct answer, a detailed explanation of how the answer was arrived at.

4.) Live send and receive testing for CW.
# #
# Well, for good or ill, I&#39;ve said my piece. Ya&#39;ll can take it with a grain of salt, or take to to heart, as you please; but at least think about what would be good for Amateur radio, instead of what will make things easier for the next Joe who wants a Ham ticket.

[K4LYP]

Hell, they might as well drop it here. They are already giving ham tickets to anyone who wants one. Two meters is not gettting bad....it been bad for years&#33; CB all over again&#33;

"Some" of these new hams (extra class CB&#39;ers) are a joke&#33;

[VE7NGR]

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Jan. 29 2005,18:31)]Gentlemen, to pick a CW "nit": ditdididit is NOT "es" (that would be dit dididit - notice the spacing). It is "&" (the ampersand). You have that key on your keyboard, please use it. It is confusing to try to translate nonwords ("es"... what language is that? Spanish, I think...).
I believe that "ES" is an abbreviation, not a prosign. Every reference I have ever seen has listed it that way. I have never seen it listed as a prosign. It should be sent as "ES", or "dit dididit".

I&#39;m not sure which language it comes from. I&#39;ve heard French, but that would be "et". I believe Spanish would be "y", though I don&#39;t speak Spanish and could be wrong.

I do agree that it&#39;s better to use "and" or "&" in typed text.

[K1LWI]

how about droping the exams too no code and no exams just a give away few more years ham radio will be just like cb radio. ham radio going down hill fast #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif i been lic 44 yrs .i am not happy way ham radio going lots of very lazy guys/girles want a lic with no work dummy #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[K5CO]

Thereis a definite reason why Canada did not give birth to all the great inventors that the US has had. Let&#39;s not go the way of the folks to the North.
We already have the worst educational system in the industrialized world; let&#39;s see if we can keep it a challenge to enter the world of Ham radio.

[KA5S]

Quote[/b] (k5rna @ Jan. 29 2005,01:26)]Now if we could only get the hams in the U.S.to drop the subject.
Churchill defined a fanatic as one who "...can&#39;t change his mind, and won&#39;t change the subject."

Cortland

[KA9KQH]

I am currently an Advanced class ticket holder who is testing for my Extra ticket in under a week. While I had to do the old 13wpm test to get where I am I think there is room for HF Access without the Element 1 (morse). The easiest way to prevent a big problem here is provide a small segment of certain HF Bands to the "no code" croud. Then once they have upgraded to a license with a 5wpm code speed they would be allowed access to the CW Portions of the bands...and more than likely an increased amount of Voice spectrum.

Of course there is no single solution that will make everyone happy that is just the way it is.

73 de KA9KQH.

[KC0FDE]

I currently do not supprt continuing the use of code in our hobby. A hobby is something that you get into and pick the portions of it that you enjoy and ignore the parts that you dislike. If this is a hobby then how can we impose upon people the use of or atleast the knowledge of cw? I could personally care less who knows code and who doesnt, you pick what you like about ham radio and become proficient in that and the other parts you leave to someone else who enjoys that to learn and become proficient. I personally love to home brew, however, I do not necessarily find it to be a necessity that we add to to the exams a portion to where you must sit and build some small circuit in order to prove that you can. Why can we not just accept change. There is never a time when change is not happening. You cant change the fact that things change so the only thing you can do is go with the flow and learn to adapt and get along. Instead of being divided over code, all hams should unite and strive just to keep this hobby surviving as the times change and we see changes in electronics. If we unite together we cannot be broken as easily but separately we can be broken easily so unite and support ham radio and enjoy it while you have it. Take care everyone&#33;

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (K1MVP @ Jan. 29 2005,21:59)]I think instructing a newcomer in the proper use of
#"and" or "es" is quite minor when there is a much
bigger issue, at hand,--and that is teaching them
"basic electronics", which in my opinion and many
other`s, the ARRL and NCVEC has not in the past
number of years.--This is what will effect ham radio
in the long run much more profoundly, than the use
of "es" or "and",-- IMO and others.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # #73, K1MVP # # # # # # # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
If you will add "teaching basic operating procedures & courtesy" to electronics, then I will agree whole heartedly&#33;&#33;

73 & cu agn

[W9GRN]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Jan. 29 2005,18:47)]Interesting comments,but one thing I see there is a tendenacy to give the impression that the world has changed,which it may well have in it&#39;s opinion of Amateur Radio.

Chronologically I believe it was Amateur Radio that changed,leading to a reassesment of their opinions.

Amateur Radio was but no longer is a Technical Fraternity whose members shared a bond of common interest in the Art of Radio Communications.

That interest has over the years,been diluted,debased, disenfranchised, to an unrecognizeable HOBBY.

Even today licensed Hams are openly stating their only interest is "shooting skip"and making friends in a lonely hearts society.If some one mentions learning CW,some thing that has been a standard practice from day one,or if it is questioned about their technical ability they immediately become offensive as though some one has insulted them.

Some say it must have changed with the new century,you got that right baby, it NO LONGER resembles Amateur Radio,and shortly the 21st Century crowd will get bored and move on to another "HOBBY"and the foundation they so willing let crumble will no longer support the Facade.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
I am in the minority of people I guess, that agrees with K6UEY.Not against change per se,just make the tests worth while. To me, it&#39;s also more than just a hobby. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Jan. 30 2005,09:50)]
Quote[/b] (K1MVP @ Jan. 29 2005,21:59)]I think instructing a newcomer in the proper use of
#"and" or "es" is quite minor when there is a much
bigger issue, at hand,--and that is teaching them
"basic electronics", which in my opinion and many
other`s, the ARRL and NCVEC has not in the past
number of years.--This is what will effect ham radio
in the long run much more profoundly, than the use
of "es" or "and",-- IMO and others.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # #73, K1MVP # # # # # # # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
If you will add "teaching basic operating procedures & courtesy" to electronics, then I will agree whole heartedly&#33;&#33;

73 & cu agn
Jim,
I agree, in including "basic operating procedures" which
I did not include,--but as I recall, this was also
included in the exams of years ago.--Another item
that would help would be REAL FCC enforcement
of rule violations which did occur years ago.
Sorry if I might have "overreacted", but this issue
as I mentioned in my previous posts is a "pet peeve"
that I have a problem with.
The ARRL up until 10 or 15 years ago did a great
job of representing ham radio, BUT since the deletion
of the "traditional" novice license, and institution
of the NCT license as the "entry" level license, they,
(the ARRL) have not helped amateur radio,IMO.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # #73`s, K1MVP # # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[W2DWL]

IT&#39;S ABOUT TIME. JUST READ ALL THE PERSONAL PROS AND CONS. FOR ONE, IF ITS THE END OF HAM RADIO, GO TO THE SWAPENET AND SELL YOU RADIO, AND STOP BELLY-ACHING. IF YOUR CONCERN IS SINCERE, HELP THOSE WHO NEED HELP WITH THE CODE.

73
DENNIS
W2DWL

[KU2US]

RESULTS FROM THIS THREAD (Rope). I read every reply on this thread. Weeded out the replies that have nothing to do with the Code/No Code argument. Here are the results: In favor of KEEPING the code testing requirements: 113. Those in favor of ELIMINATING the Code Testing Requirements: 56.. More facts: Most of the "no Code" people have 2x3 call signs.Most of the "Pro-Code" people are higher class licensed. More facts:most "no Coders" are Cb&#39;ers, lazy and want something for free with-out working for it. Most "Pro-Coders" are old farts & elitists. If the code requirement is dropped for testing, HF will be flooded with inexperienced operators that will degrade ham radio. If the code testing is retained, then this will stop the no-coders from experiencing the joy of HF. JUST A NON-SCIENTIFIC OBSERVATION....Ken #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[N7PXH]

Ken,

There are other ways to deal with the rif raf. I personally am ok with 5 wpm as a standard as anyone should be able to do that. But the 13/20 wpm was bogus. I was a electronic tech in the Navy and the knowledge tests are no problem. But code kicked my backside, never could get past 10wpm. So I was relegated off the HF bands for the last 20 years. Once the code limits were lifted, even I had to review a bit, but I still had my Extra ticket in two weeks.

If this wonderful hobby is to progress, it&#39;s members need to stay current. The written tests need to be updated to reflect current technology as well. Morse code needs to go the way of the doo-doo bird.

Most of the crud on 2 meter in our area are from kids of operators taking the family car out and get on the radio and play. Anyone that has worked to get their ticket is respectful.

[N7PXH]

Quote[/b] (KU2US @ Jan. 30 2005,12:01)]RESULTS FROM THIS THREAD (Rope). I read every reply on this thread. Weeded out the replies that have nothing to do with the Code/No Code argument. Here are the results: In favor of KEEPING the code testing requirements: 113. Those in favor of ELIMINATING the Code Testing Requirements: 56.. More facts: Most of the "no Code" people have 2x3 call signs.Most of the "Pro-Code" people are higher class licensed. More facts:most "no Coders" are Cb&#39;ers, lazy and want something for free with-out working for it. Most "Pro-Coders" are old farts & elitists. If the code requirement is dropped for testing, HF will be flooded with inexperienced operators that will degrade ham radio. If the code testing is retained, then this will stop the no-coders from experiencing the joy of HF. JUST A NON-SCIENTIFIC OBSERVATION....Ken #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Ken,

I find your comment about No Coders being CB&#39;ers and lazy very offensive.

My wife, and two sons are No Coders, and are neither lazy nor do they act like CB&#39;ers.

All three put in work to earn their ticket, are mindful of the rules and regs, and frankly perform better than many of the old crusty guys.

You need to pull your head out and realize your comments do damage to this hobby. A hobby that has been driven by the old fools for too long. Your comments are more typical of what I would expect from a Chicken Bander than a fellow Ham.....

John

[ki4hpz]

I agree, drop the code as a requiement...Anyone saying the code makes better hams is full of mud, but does not know it yet-LOL. I have heard some of the language of code hams on HF.

[ki4hpz]

These is good and bad in anything in life. To attack no code hams show a lack of common sense. The ones with this attitude should look into the mirror to see the real problem with ham radio....

[VE3EN]

Removing Morse Code as a requirement.. hmmmm.
Right on.. now the 11M boys club Alfa Tango can move its operations to 10M.

What can i say.. we live in an era where people are lazy, and people want things without having to work for it.
Ive been a ham now for 4 years, and i can say i proudly learned the code and can #send / receive at around 25wpm. With the help of local ham friends that introduced me to the hobby... i was able to do it.

People say the code isnt with the times.. well i say it is.. its a tradition and part of the hobby. #This hobby is a serious one.. and a fun one.. but instead of trying to drop this.. and drop that in order to lure more people into it.. how bout better promoting it.

For some people getting their drivers liscense may have been a tough one, but hey.. in this day and age.. why not drop the parrallell parking or get rid of that funny Yield sign. Common sense says you should stop or slow down anyways.... right ?

Obivously this comment is supposed to either prove a point or be a little bit comical.. but thats just my idea.

I plan on being in this hobby for the rest of my life.. and will always be showing this to friends, family members.. and try and recrute new hams. And hey.. i now have an uncle studying for his ticket and my gf is starting to even wanna take a listen now and again. But keeping morse code a part of the testing.. thats a good thing.
5wpm is not that hard to learn.. if you want something bad enough.

73, Kevin
VE3GIB

[W8ABN]

Look, We can DISCUSS this til the end of the world. Both sides has very good points, BUT do not knock someone just because they haven&#39;t taken or pass the code test ( I AM STUDYING NOW). Are you going to look down or not have a QSO with a new ham who han&#39;t had the code yet. Code does not make you a good operator&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; Times are a changing for better or worse( hi hi) so live with it like always. I am not for code or against it http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[KC0PDF]

The first Morse Code message, "What hath God wrought?", it was sent from Washington
to Baltimore. I understand him now by reading all the posts here on QRZ.

Morse Code was invented by Samuel Finley Breese Morse (1791-1872),
He conceived the basic idea of an electromagnetic telegraph in 1832,
and produced the first working telegraph set in 1836. Wow that was a long time ago.

TITLE 47--TELECOMMUNICATION COMMISSION Sec. 97.1 #Basis and purpose.
#The rules and regulations in this part are designed to provide an
amateur radio service having a fundamental purpose as expressed in the
following principles:

# #(a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service
to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service,
particularly with respect to providing emergency communications.

# #(b) Continuation and extension of the amateur&#39;s proven ability to
contribute to the advancement of the radio art.

# #&copy; Encouragement and improvement of the amateur service through
rules which provide for advancing skills in both the communication and
technical phases of the art.

# #(d) Expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio
service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts.

# #(e) Continuation and extension of the amateur&#39;s unique ability to
enhance international goodwill.

Lots of things have been said in this thread and a lot of it will not fit in the
basis and purpose definition of amateur radio.

Recognition of the value (a) of the amateur service to the public
with respect to providing emergency communications. Not much of that yet.
Recognition of amateur proven ability to spell is what I have seen here.

Continuation of the amateur&#39;s proven ability (b) contribute to the advancement
of the radio. Who knows if the next Sam Morse holds a technicians ticket or is
just looking at amateur radio service as a way to better him or her self thru
radio. Or can write the next software for your rig or for your mode of choice?

Encouragement &copy; = LEARN THE CODE OR GET A CB = Now can I ask you a question?
that is encouragement to improve my skills in both the communication and
technical phases of amateur radio? Or what?

Expansion of existing trained operators (d), technicians, and electronics enthusiasts
was also covered here and technicians must copy the Morse Code from 169 years ago
in order to use HF.

International goodwill (e) was covered way back on the first 10 pages (I&#39;m sorry some
people in Canada did feel the need to defend it self here).

Ham radio operators have this enormous amount of frequency spectrum dedicated
specifically for their use in communication. Technician Class operators
are authorized to use amateur VHF and UHF frequencies and above.

You know I did get a radio gram to join in on slow speed CW net for NOVICE
on a HF band just days after I just passed the TECHNICIAN examination
and was posted in the FCC database what was he thinking? Was he trying to
be an ELMER or get me an OO letter from the FCC? I still wonder about that one.

Please do a Goggle search for ham radio elmers #7,030 for ham radio elmers Searching
8,058,044,651 web pages And the first one will say Elmers Directory on Indefinite Hiatus.
Even the World Wide Web is not into Elmers for technicians looking for help.

How do you expect to attract new people into the amateur radio if you are not willing
to help the technicians looking for help in the place that has the answers to the
questions that they have like the World Wide Web, For many new Hans it has been there
all their life, I bet a lot of hams young and old look to the Web for help as well.

Not all Hams had a Timex Sinclair or a C-64 for a computer but the ones who did had
to put them away and move on to using 8088 286 386 486 and Pentium computers. And also put
away the 300 baud modem for 14.4 and 33.6 and 56k and now we have broadband. And computers
that run at GHz speed yes gigahertz speed. Yes things have changed a lot in short time and
I do miss using my C-64 and load "*",8,1 to get a program started or a system command to get
the packrat pk64 going for packet but things are a lot better and faster with Windows.

By combining GPS and computer technology with the Web and amateur mobile radios,
the Automatic Position Reporting System (APRS) was developed and is now widely used, #
I bet a lot of Hams think of that as noise toys or is it the SSTV or is the other
digital modes that are the noise toys, the only radio I ever had that had a noise toy
was a RCI 2950 a 10m rig with a roger beep on it.

Fifteen years ago I tried for a ham ticket and was stopped by the Morse code. I even
had a nice packet setup but with no code I was not a Ham. Now I am just a technician
but I am a licensed Amateur Radio Operator. And proud if it.

Am I a good amateur radio operator I do not know but 25 years ago I dispatched emergency
service at the race track in Minnesota for SCCA IMSA races and I sure hope I did a good
job I did it for 8 years.

Am I knowledgeable in electronics I hope so I was trained to repair copiers and fax
machines and repairing computers for more than 12 years now.

Back about page 32 someone said I should only have to know 6 letters of Morse code
and to make his point did it in code spelling out "Im lazy" You do not know me so
why do you think that I·----·m lazy? ·----· Apostrophe right?

There might be a way to do it faster and with out all of the mistakes of made by
someone sitting pounding a key. It is called a computer and not a C-64 any more. I do
use Morse code every day and I use my keyboard not my key for it. I am also told how
good it sounds. But after I tell them it is from my sound card I get a different
attitude about it. But it is how I am learning the code. I am working on it.

Is it about the money yes I think so but not the money from buying new radios,
more like the big money from the BPL will make for the power providers. Less than
a mile from my QTH I have high power transmission lines and I bet BPL will be a big
problem even before I get on HF. The FCC acted fast on BPL and moves slow on this
the petitions regarding dropping the Morse Code testing requirement almost 2 years now,
so yes I do think it is about the money the big money.

HF is not the best right now and VHF is busy now so the use it or loose it just
might be true. I said might be true do I know for sure NO, do you?

And if my battery dies and my solar panel breaks and I can not make a wind mill
out of some old car parts I will just sink some pennies and galvanized nails in
a potato.

So if I am not ready for the code test, and the FCC has not stopped testing for the code
I will use CW on 6m and 2m. Even if the only code on VHF I have heard is on contest
weekends and on simplex fm on our morning net with others how need a little help with
the code.

QRZ ham census page tells me that of all licensed amateur radio operators
technician class has the largest percentage of all the licensed operators.

# # # # # # # # E # # #A # # #G # # P # # #T # # # N
Total 675274 105552 #79253 139251 #57986 262422 #30810
#pct # #100 #15.63 #11.74 #20.62 # 8.59 #38.86 #4.56

Look at the numbers. If 38,89% of all licensed amateurs file comments on
a petition pending before the FCC I thimk it would be over already.

However, the IARU said it best -Morse Code is no longer a relevant requirement
for licensing.

So before you say I received my ticket from a Cracker Jack box or that I took a Dumb=Downed
test and look down at me because I carry a ham shack in my shirt pocket, a GPS, laptop
computer with an interface and WIFI card ask me to show you how it works you might learn
something new. I will be more than happy to show you, We can go for a ride in my car and
find a hot spot to show you APRS or do some slow scan from the web cam if it is in the car
it is cool and it is all good.

It&#39;s the end of the world as we know it = page 1 first reply = You are right as we know it
but there is "Always Tomorrow" 1941 the history of the Coca-Cola company
a feature film 3 parts and it is on line for free watch it "Always Tomorrow".

Wow 1836 Technicians must copy the Morse Code from 169 years ago
in order to use HF. "It is confusing to try to translate nonwords ("es"... what
language is that? Spanish, I think...)." QSL QSL? Code for code, but I thought the rules
said something about no code,,, Sec. 97.113 /a/4. But no I will not go there.

One way or the other I hope to work all of you someday soon #have fun and good DX to you
work it if you can, Or if you still can with all that QRM soon QRN. QSL? #73 .

Fred is not trolling he is just posting the news. I for one look at QRZ for the
latest news and this code no-code debate it is hard to find any news without all
the flaming and insults.

Thank You Fred please keep us up to date on this. And keep up the good work&#33;

OK here is the address or do need a link OK and try mpeg1
http://www.archive.org/movies....Company (http://www.archive.org/movies/movieslisting-browse.php?collection=prelinger&cat=Coca-Cola%20Company)

[VE3EN]

i would never not talk to a person who does not know the code.. that is immature. I would help them learn.

That comment is against the type of people that hear about ham radio... and hear about morse code.. and think.. Morse Code ? Nope.. not gonna do it. No way. Give me a ticket without it. That is lazyness.

[KU2US]

John: I am not sure what you are talking about? & why you and your wife were insulted? My post was an overview of what has been said up to this page? by the whole thread, both sides. Still, my position is unchanged. No-coders, if thats what one wants to be, is fine. BUT-no more privledges, no HF, untill it is Earned, which includes at least 5 WPM code profficiency testing. Why do people want things for free, with no effort being put forth? CW started it all, and it will be with us always. Use it or dont use it. But, it makes #ham radio different and yes, ELITE, the way it is supposed to be and the way it was intended. We are supposed to be a cut above, more knowledgable, the "examples". Thats why no CB testing, No FRS testing. For the life of me, I just cant understand why some folks want to DUMB DOWN even further the Ham Radio Service? Is it just for lazy, selfish non-motivation? Ham Radio is a PRIVLEDGE, not a right. If you want to be a REAL ham radio operator, with access to HF, then learn the code and stop crying-PERIOD.If you do not like cw, or if you will never use it, then be a No-Coder, no hard feelings, but dont expect to go any farther&#33; Dont expect me to give away my privledges that I and many others EARNED, because the "Gimme Generation" demands it, because it will never happen..Ken

[N0DOZ]

Aren&#39;t you guys done with this yet?

[KC0PDF]

Nope 400?

[W0VU]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Jan. 28 2005,15:53)]
Quote[/b] (WS5X @ Jan. 28 2005,13:34)]You will be a brat with an expired license soon. That takes effort too. Can you handle it?
I&#39;ve been struggling with that for over a month now. Leaving it till the last minute gives all those who look up my call and CLASS on QRZ (and whose eyes light up when they see the <span style='color:red'>RED PRINT</span>) a chance to moan about it here.
Who cares what you do http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?? Learning code today is a no brainer. 5 WPM is nothing.....

[W8ABN]

One of my best friends and fellow amateur (15yrs.) is a tech and has tried every program,tape and now CDs and, (repairs commercial and amateur radios for 12yrs.) just can not pass the code does that make him less of a ham. Why shouldn&#39;t he be able to get on HF

[KC0PDF]

One of my best friends and fellow amateur (15yrs.) is a tech
He had to pass a code test back then....
is a tech and has tried every program,tape and now CDs and, (repairs commercial and amateur radios for 12yrs.) just can not pass the code does that make him less of a ham
No he is still trying...
Why shouldn&#39;t he be able to get on HF
Well give him the good news ... Just a little more time soon very soon.

[N4SVA]

Quote[/b] (kc0pdf @ Jan. 30 2005,15:57)]One of my best friends and fellow amateur (15yrs.) is a tech
He had to pass a code test back then....
is a tech and has tried every program,tape and now CDs and, (repairs commercial and amateur radios for 12yrs.) just can not pass the code does that make him less of a ham
No he is still trying...
Why shouldn&#39;t he be able to get on HF
Well give him the good news ... Just a little more time soon very soon.
We also have a shortage of high school math and science teachers. Should we lower the standards for them just because there is a shortage of them?

[KC0PDF]

If they know the code:0 http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[KB8RTZ]

Quote[/b] (n4sva @ Jan. 30 2005,15:59)]We also have a shortage of high school math and science teachers. Should we lower the standards for them just because there is a shortage of them?
that&#39;s a low blow, pal. don&#39;t even equate any education system to amateur radio proficiency exams.

patrick...kb8rtz...

[K9APR]

You know I used to feel the way that most no-coders do. Why do I need code, it is not worth the time to study, always something going on and never no time to study.It was always one excuse after another. Typical Excuses follow below.

1. Boss chewed my a*s&#33;&#33;&#33;
2. Car broke down
3. Dog eat my tapes
4. Computer ate the CD
5. Doctor says I&#39;m not smart enough to learn code
6. I have to much to do
7. Neighbor hears me doing code and calls the police

See I could go on but won&#39;t, EXCUSES gets you no where in life.

I&#39;ll wait around until they give me free HF access. Well, that&#39;s not right either like getting something for nothing. Will you have the technical know how of a current General? if they drop the code they need to retain the theory part. I&#39;m a firm believer in that, otherwise we&#39;ll have a bunch of new generals that don&#39;t even have a clue.

I have a totally different opinion since I spent a couple of months learning the code and upgrading from tech to extra. I feel they should leave code alone.

And I don&#39;t feel the no-code techs are CBer&#39;s if so I must have been a CBer for nearly 11 years before I upgraded. I have been a Ham for nearly 12 years now.. So do I fit in the CB crowd. I think not&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; Just means I used excuses not to upgrade plain and simple.

Whether you love code or hate code, once you learn the code you&#39;ll have a different opinion... Trust me&#33;&#33;&#33;

Lighten up&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; And get to studying&#33;&#33;

K9APR
ARC = Extra http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[KB9KLC]

Quote[/b] (KB8RTZ @ Jan. 30 2005,18:12)]
Quote[/b] (n4sva @ Jan. 30 2005,15:59)]We also have a shortage of high school math and science teachers. Should we lower the standards for them just because there is a shortage of them?
that&#39;s a low blow, pal. don&#39;t even equate any education system to amateur radio proficiency exams.

patrick...kb8rtz...
Interesting...It would seem both involve taking tests, both are done by choice, and both could be used to "educate." Actually the academic standards in some areas have been lowered since I went to school. I agree they are two different areas of life, but I&#39;m not sure which one you were considering the better of the two. My father taught school for 31 years so I have no problem&#39;s with teachers. Just curious where you were going there Patrick.

[KC0PDF]

My father taught school for 31 years so I have no problem&#39;s with teachers. Just curious where you were going there
... even with all the ones who came after this....
academic standards in some areas have been lowered since I went to school.

[KB9KLC]

Quote[/b] (kc0pdf @ Jan. 30 2005,18:40)]My father taught school for 31 years so I have no problem&#39;s with teachers. Just curious where you were going there
... even with all the ones who came after this....
academic standards in some areas have been lowered since I went to school.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[W5SOU]

Gee, I wonder if K1MAN KNOWS MORSE CODE? Hasn&#39;t made him any better for having it&#33; Just because some of us have a hard time of learning code doesn&#39;t mean it will be the death of hf and we will run rampant over the bands. It doesn&#39;t matter to me if they drop it or not. I will still continue to be a ham and will still continue to study code at my unbelievable slow rate.

[K8RHE]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Jan. 29 2005,12:12)]
Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 28 2005,05:17)]
Quote[/b] (K8RHE @ Jan. 28 2005,22:26)]
Quote[/b] ]Learning the code is like learning to shoe a horse to get a drivers license

Well said&#33; #Maybe some of us 2 meter trash can get rid of the foul mouth HF opps&#33; Let the games begin, boy what a way to talk down a fellow ham aww screw em the old goats will die soon and we can have HF&#33;&#33;.:p
Gee Maybe we ought to close this one out before someone says someting really hateful. #I think this is sad. And the owner of this forum thinks the above post was "OK"http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Mommie mommie I saw jonnie&#39;s duehickey.....lets cut it off so it doesn&#39;t happen again&#33;
Well I do apologize for the comment but thats the way I feel. I can listen all over and HF and Is full of foul mouthed opps. What makes you better than me? get over yourself, code shouldn&#39;t be a requirment. Its a die hard mode and I do like it for that, but don&#39;t force it on me. If I have to I may sometime down the road learn it to get to HF, I will never use it. If I do I so be it but it will be because I WANT to..........


Rich

[KB9KLC]

Quote[/b] (K8RHE @ Jan. 30 2005,20:07)]
Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Jan. 29 2005,12:12)]
Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 28 2005,05:17)]
Quote[/b] (K8RHE @ Jan. 28 2005,22:26)]
Quote[/b] ]Learning the code is like learning to shoe a horse to get a drivers license

Well said&#33; Maybe some of us 2 meter trash can get rid of the foul mouth HF opps&#33; Let the games begin, boy what a way to talk down a fellow ham aww screw em the old goats will die soon and we can have HF&#33;&#33;.:p
Gee Maybe we ought to close this one out before someone says someting really hateful. I think this is sad. And the owner of this forum thinks the above post was "OK"http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Mommie mommie I saw jonnie&#39;s duehickey.....lets cut it off so it doesn&#39;t happen again&#33;
Well I do apologize for the comment but thats the way I feel. I can listen all over and HF and Is full of foul mouthed opps. What makes you better than me? get over yourself, code shouldn&#39;t be a requirment. Its a die hard mode and I do like it for that, but don&#39;t force it on me. If I have to I may sometime down the road learn it to get to HF, I will never use it. If I do I so be it but it will be because I WANT to..........


Rich
Never said I was better than you. I&#39;ve never said code should or should not be a requirement. I&#39;m not sure what&#39;s up with you man perhaps you need to get over yourself. I&#39;m not the one talking about people dying and trash you are. I&#39;m not requiring you to do anything, the rules are. Jeesh. I stared as a Technician and value all ham radio class licenses. The stuff some of the techs do around here is awsome. There are probably more techs involved in skywarn (in this area anyway) than other classes. Take care Rich and 73

[KF1G]

Quote[/b] (w8abn @ Jan. 30 2005,15:45)]One of my best friends and fellow amateur (15yrs.) is a tech and has tried every program,tape and now CDs and, (repairs commercial and amateur radios for 12yrs.) just can not pass the code does that make him less of a ham. Why shouldn&#39;t he be able to get on HF
Because he has not met the requirements

[K8RHE]

Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 30 2005,18:13)]
Quote[/b] (K8RHE @ Jan. 30 2005,20:07)]
Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Jan. 29 2005,12:12)]
Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 28 2005,05:17)]
Quote[/b] (K8RHE @ Jan. 28 2005,22:26)]
Quote[/b] ]Learning the code is like learning to shoe a horse to get a drivers license

Well said&#33; #Maybe some of us 2 meter trash can get rid of the foul mouth HF opps&#33; Let the games begin, boy what a way to talk down a fellow ham aww screw em the old goats will die soon and we can have HF&#33;&#33;.:p
Gee Maybe we ought to close this one out before someone says someting really hateful. #I think this is sad. And the owner of this forum thinks the above post was "OK"http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Mommie mommie I saw jonnie&#39;s duehickey.....lets cut it off so it doesn&#39;t happen again&#33;
Well I do apologize for the comment but thats the way I feel. I can listen all over and HF and Is full of foul mouthed opps. What makes you better than me? get over yourself, code shouldn&#39;t be a requirment. Its a die hard mode and I do like it for that, but don&#39;t force it on me. If I have to I may sometime down the road learn it to get to HF, I will never use it. If I do I so be it but it will be because I WANT to..........


Rich
Never said I was better than you. #I&#39;ve never said code should or should not be a requirement. #I&#39;m not sure what&#39;s up with you man perhaps you need to get over yourself. #I&#39;m not the one talking about people dying and trash you are. I&#39;m not requiring you to do anything, the rules are. Jeesh. I stared as a Technician and value all ham radio class licenses. #The stuff some of the techs do around here is awsome. #There are probably more tec&#39;s involved in skywarn (in this area anyway) than other classes. #Take care Rich and 73
This was not directed to you. I am a tech like you. I just used your post for the quote. The rules do require me to learn CW if I want on HF Not any other ham. But the rules need to be changed and there are to many people the think change is bad and flame us techies for wanting change. It may be after I break down and learn code but there will be a time that HF opps don&#39;t have to learn code to get there. Give me all the written tests you want to if that makes the HF opps feel better. Just because I don&#39;t know CW does not make me a bad ham opp.....

73 DE Rich K8RHE

[KB9KLC]

Quote[/b] (K8RHE @ Jan. 30 2005,20:37)]
Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 30 2005,18:13)]
Quote[/b] (K8RHE @ Jan. 30 2005,20:07)]
Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Jan. 29 2005,12:12)]
Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 28 2005,05:17)]
Quote[/b] (K8RHE @ Jan. 28 2005,22:26)]
Quote[/b] ]Learning the code is like learning to shoe a horse to get a drivers license

Well said&#33; Maybe some of us 2 meter trash can get rid of the foul mouth HF opps&#33; Let the games begin, boy what a way to talk down a fellow ham aww screw em the old goats will die soon and we can have HF&#33;&#33;.:p
Gee Maybe we ought to close this one out before someone says someting really hateful. I think this is sad. And the owner of this forum thinks the above post was "OK"http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Mommie mommie I saw jonnie&#39;s duehickey.....lets cut it off so it doesn&#39;t happen again&#33;
Well I do apologize for the comment but thats the way I feel. I can listen all over and HF and Is full of foul mouthed opps. What makes you better than me? get over yourself, code shouldn&#39;t be a requirment. Its a die hard mode and I do like it for that, but don&#39;t force it on me. If I have to I may sometime down the road learn it to get to HF, I will never use it. If I do I so be it but it will be because I WANT to..........


Rich
Never said I was better than you. I&#39;ve never said code should or should not be a requirement. I&#39;m not sure what&#39;s up with you man perhaps you need to get over yourself. I&#39;m not the one talking about people dying and trash you are. I&#39;m not requiring you to do anything, the rules are. Jeesh. I stared as a Technician and value all ham radio class licenses. The stuff some of the techs do around here is awsome. There are probably more tec&#39;s involved in skywarn (in this area anyway) than other classes. Take care Rich and 73
This was not directed to you. I am a tech like you. I just used your post for the quote. The rules do require me to learn CW if I want on HF Not any other ham. But the rules need to be changed and there are to many people the think change is bad and flame us techies for wanting change. It may be after I break down and learn code but there will be a time that HF opps don&#39;t have to learn code to get there. Give me all the written tests you want to if that makes the HF opps feel better. Just because I don&#39;t know CW does not make me a bad ham opp.....

73 DE Rich K8RHE
Rich,
OK thanks. I thought you were talking to me directly. I have went on thru Tech plus and currently a General, however I rememember very foundly my Tech days. 2 ssb what a hoot LOL. Anyway, I wish you well. I looked at your bio and wish I had the room for the equipment you have. I know with a family how hard it can be to find the time or the desire to learn the code. I have had the pleasure to have worked many people of all classes that had wonderful procedure and knowledge. Yes that means the technician class too.(even still today) Hopefully someday I&#39;ll be able to put up a proper six meter antenna and we&#39;ll qso or perhaps you&#39;ll upgrade, with or without the code (whatever the rules are at that time). Once again, take care and 73 nice to "meet you"

[K8RHE]

Greg,

Thank you. We need more upper classman like you. I would love to work a QSO in with you someday. My comments are not directed to all hams just the ones that feel that me not learning code will make HF turn into CB and flame us for wanting change, I started in CB and like alot of others did too but are tooo up on themselves to say they did. I take pride in the fact I&#39;m a ham and will fight for the rights of any ham where it be BPL or anything that may hit us down the road. We need to stick together, and move on with some changes to keep our hobby alive.


73 DE Rich K8RHE

[N5AQ]

Hey Canada - welcome to Citizens Band Ham Radio - Good Luck

[N7PXH]

Ken, #KU2US

How is it lazy when the "no coders" have to study to learn about basic electronic theory, rules/regs, and freq bands? #To make broad negative statements about a group of individuals because you don&#39;t like how the rules are written now, or because of some bad apples is wrong.

You&#39;re old school, you and your ilk are losing ground on your position, and in due time code will be gone. #I believe it will be beneficial to this hobby to lose the code requirement. #Frankly it is only because people in the hobby that had some ability to be forward looking and coming up with the no code tech years ago that saved the hobby. #If the requirement for code was the same as 20 years ago, the number of hams now would be a lot smaller and would continue to shrink as the narrow minded became silent keys. #Soon the activity on the air would be so small and the memberships so few the allotted freq. spread would be given to other groups.

But for you to make such offensive comments about no coders, is not what a senior ham should be like. #And if I was a newbie sitting on the fence wondering if I wanted to join the ham club and read your posts, I would move on to another hobby. #Senior hams like "us" Extra class hams should be singing the praises of the hobby, and encourgaging progression in their licenses, helping, mentoring, and teaching.

Pull your skirt up, get over it, and realize you old timers and your old ways are on the way out.

Oh by the way, I guess I need to refer to you as junior operator seeing as you are ONLY an Advanced licensed ham,,,,how come you haven&#39;t upgraded to Extra?? Oh I know, you must be real LAZY&#33;

[N4EMP]

There are those of us "No Code" Techs who deeply respect the HF world privileges&#33;&#33; If I am not "required" to know the code to obtain a General Class Licence... Can I sign a sworn affidavit to relinquish my license if I ever am found guilty of abusing any portion of the HF bands? (Unlike some of the cursing folks that I hear constantly being complained about by some of you HF users that are currently allowed there&#33;)-- I would NEVER want my son to hear what is said to be on some of the HF bands&#33;&#33; That&#39;s why I got out of Citizen&#39;s Band&#33;&#33; Channel 19 gets pretty filthy&#33;&#33;&#33; http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[KF4VGX]

Quote[/b] (N4EMP @ Jan. 30 2005,21:59)]There are those of us "No Code" Techs who deeply respect the HF world privileges&#33;&#33; If I am not "required" to know the code to obtain a General Class Licence... Can I sign a sworn affidavit to relinquish my license if I ever am found guilty of abusing any portion of the HF bands? (Unlike some of the cursing folks that I hear constantly being complained about by some of you HF users that are currently allowed there&#33;)-- I would NEVER want my son to hear what is said to be on some of the HF bands&#33;&#33; That&#39;s why I got out of Citizen&#39;s Band&#33;&#33; Channel 19 gets pretty filthy&#33;&#33;&#33; http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
If I can help you in anyway in learning the code,let me know. At your option of course.

QUOTE .
(I got out of Citizen&#39;s Band&#33;&#33; Channel 19 gets pretty filthy&#33;&#33;&#33; . )

So will HF ,you just move on to cleaner frequencies
( BANDS ) .
I have a few tips that will help you along your way, if you decide to learn the code .
It&#39;s still a requirement. Not my place to judge you, I&#39;m sure you will enjoy this hobby, just has a few rough edges.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # 73 #KF4VGX

[W5RCP]

Quote[/b] (N7PXH @ Jan. 30 2005,21:18)]Oh by the way, I guess I need to refer to you as junior operator seeing as you are ONLY an Advanced licensed ham,,,,how come you haven&#39;t upgraded to Extra?? Oh I know, you must be real LAZY&#33;
Oh by the way, I guess I need to refer to you as junior operator seeing as you are ONLY an Advanced licensed ham,,,,how come you haven&#39;t upgraded to Extra?? Oh I know, you must be real LAZY&#33;

No, I waiting for them to drop the requirment. I&#39;m not going to use that knowledge anyway so why do I have to learn it? If I want it later i will study it, but that should be my choice&#33;

I just hope and pray non of you no-coders are studying to be doctors..........

[ve5rww]

Hi to all. These days with the internet, Cell phones FRS and GMRS and CB that need no testing at all. You have to wonder if the younger generation will not consider Ham Radio because what it takes to much to get into. I think we need new blood in the Hobbie and if dropping the code requirement will help well what is it going to hurt in the long term. Times change and we should change with them. Let the People decide. Take care all and 73,s

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (ve5rww @ Jan. 31 2005,05:31)]Hi to all. These days with the internet, Cell phones FRS and GMRS and CB that need no testing at all. You have to wonder if the younger generation will not consider Ham Radio because what it takes to much to get into. I think we need new blood in the Hobbie and if dropping the code requirement will help well what is it going to hurt in the long term. Times change and we should change with them. Let the People decide. Take care all and 73,s
"let the people decide",--really?
#Then why bother to have the FCC at all anymore, if
#thats the case,--let the people decide what should
#be on the exams too,--what the heck we have to
#"change with the times"
#I could just imagine the reaction back when we had
#to test before an FCC examiner, if we had told him.
#"hey, I should not have to take this cw exam"
#Times sure have changed, for the "better?--thats
#very questionable
.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # #73, K1MVP

#P.S., everything is now a "right", not a "privalege"
# # # # its the "American and Canadian way"
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[W7DME]

Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 29 2005,15:52)]
Quote[/b] (k7ov @ Jan. 29 2005,16:45)]
Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Jan. 29 2005,12:03)]
Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 27 2005,21:44)] I had several friends interested till they came here to qrz........Good job people.
If your "friends" were turned off by Hams expressing their opinions about something that effects all of us in one way or another, maybe they need to find another hobby anyway&#33; I am all for promoting Ham radio, but like the old saying goes, don&#39;t throw the Baby out with the bath water&#33; What that means in my application, is don&#39;t deregulate to the point that the hobby is no longer what it was designed to be in the first place, a technical hobby. All of the other things non technical, are just icing on the cake.

People of all walks of life express their opinions about various subjects on various forums and do so with some very pointed lanquage sometimes. If these "Friends" of yours are intimidated by this forum and choose to put a bad light on ham radio because of it, then maybe they have a little growing up to do. But, I suspect that maybe their feeling about this may be influenced by your opinions and vocalizations, and thus, the culprit here is not us or them, but you, because you didn&#39;t defend the ham radio operators right to express his opinon on a forum designed to do just that. Whether you, or I for that matter, agree with any topic or observations by another fellow ham, should not make any difference to anyone over the age of 5 or 6. Like all things in life, they can just "turn it off" like I do when I hear something I find distasteful on the air. Or, if they disagree, they can exercise their freedom of expression that we have in this country and vent their own spleens. Don&#39;t try to make us feel guilty over someone elses failings. It&#39;s time to Grow up&#33;

73,

Mike - K7OV
OK well number one, I never wanted the hobby deregulated. #It wasn&#39;t broken with the licensing structure that was in place. #Neither my friends nor I have any growing up to do. #My only mistake was recomending this sight for them to find information on ham radio. #Some people don&#39;t take part in forums here or elsewhere for that matter. #
#Now then...you have no idea about my part in ham radio and I don&#39;t yours, so we won&#39;t even go there. My friends have NEVER heard me say anything bad about the hobby I&#39;ve grown to love. #
#Technical hobby??? OK been lots of that in this thread. #bickering and flaming perhaps, but I don&#39;t think the technical value of this thread has been too great.
#As far as turn it off, well that&#39;s the best idea yet. #You take care and 73 hope to catch you on the air. #Much better conditions there I would think.
Greg
My point was to not blame the personal opinions and thus comments on this web site for someone else&#39;s excuse for why they don&#39;t want to be a ham. People in this country are going to express their own opinions no matter what hobby or avocation in life they associate with, that is just a fact in life. My expression about "Growing UP" is an observation about people who blame others for not doing something they are interested in. I fly airplanes, yet I am aware of expressed opinions of other pilots that I don&#39;t particularly agree with, but their opinions and expressions won&#39;t stop me from persuing flying. That is the point I was trying to get across. People can alwasy find an excuse why they don&#39;t want to do something, in this case ham radio. "I can&#39;t learn Code&#33;" "The test is too hard&#33;" "There are too many Questions and too many tests&#33;" "I don&#39;t like what I hear on QRZ forums&#33;"

There are always excuses. But for those who are really motivated, they will get their licenses regardless of the requirements needed to do so, or comments from others. Any thing else is just an excuse for not wanting to work for it. The issue in this thread is all about CW and the current FCC requirement. It is a very emotional subject for many people and so, there are bound to be a lot of controversy, and diverse opinions. This is just a fact of life. If your freinds are turned off by this, then I have to assume they are imature or living in a fantasy world. Personally, I don&#39;t believe that is the case. What I do believe is that YOU are turned off by the discussion and made an emotional response yourself. If I am wrong, then I apologize in advance, but you should be able to see that a logical person could make that kind of assumtion based on your original comment. I do hope to see you on HF, maybe with your friends. Contrary to what has been said on this thread by others, the HF bands are not a wasteland of bad language and rude operators. Those are statements of people who only work one narrow set of frequencies or who go to specific frequencies to listen to the controversy so they can then go out to forums like this and complain about all of the foul language and bad operators. This is just a sign of our times. The easier we make it for new ones to get their licenses, the more of these types of people we will see. This is just a numbers game, but if we lower standards to raise participation, then we have to accept that we will have more "rebel dissadents" in our midst. That is just a fact of life. But that being said, they can do what I do and that is limit their association on and off the air with those whoes personal example they find appealing. They don&#39;t have to participate in these forums if that disturbs them or even talk with hams who do use this forum.

I look at people who make excuses for not doing something they are interested in as a lost oportunity because, the best way to improve any hobby is to set a good example. I feel that good examples are much easier to find on ham radio than the reverse. So, if you truly have friends that are "turned off" because of this forum and thread, then point out to them that the hobby is worth working for, and they can become one of those "good examples".

73 and I would welcome chatting with you on any band.

Mike - K7OV

[W7DME]

Quote[/b] (n0klu @ Jan. 25 2005,21:52)]
Quote[/b] (n0doz @ Jan. 25 2005,15:18)]Is this code crap EVER going to end?
N0DOZ, I whole heartedly agree with you. I wish this devisive issue would be over. It make otherwise good hams act like fools. I for one will be so glad when the FCC makes a final decision one way or another, to stop this insane bickering between classes.
Gentlemen, it is not over until the fat lady sings&#33; The purpose of this forum is to allow people to express their opinions without resorting to the airwaves and otherwise causing a lot of QRM on the air.

But, your plea does not go unnoticed. Obviously, you are being held at gun or knife point to click on the appropriate links to get to this thread. Please let us know who is forcing you to read this stuff and we will send out troops to rescue you so that you don&#39;t have to read this&#33;

73,

Mike - K7OV

[KB9KLC]

Mike (K7OV),
If YOU didn&#39;t know a lot about ham radio and only had heard people talking about it, I believe YOU too would look at this particular thread with so many posts and wonder too about hams.
Now then am I turned off by some of these? You bet buddy&#33;&#33;&#33; I&#39;m sure I&#39;m not alone there. I have "talked it up" to lots of folks, some of which I&#39;m sure will continue on and get the license.
I agree with you however, better here than on the air. I think I&#39;ll just get them over here to "listen" on the air. I live in an apartment and my antennas although modest, do work.
I&#39;ll look for you on the air buddy. Take care and 73 to you and yours.

[N9CJT]

Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 30 2005,16:25)]
Quote[/b] (KB8RTZ @ Jan. 30 2005,18:12)]
Quote[/b] (n4sva @ Jan. 30 2005,15:59)]We also have a shortage of high school math and science teachers. Should we lower the standards for them just because there is a shortage of them?
that&#39;s a low blow, pal. don&#39;t even equate any education system to amateur radio proficiency exams.

patrick...kb8rtz...
Interesting...It would seem both involve taking tests, both are done by choice, and both could be used to "educate." #Actually the academic standards in some areas have been lowered since I went to school. #I agree they are two different areas of life, but I&#39;m not sure which one you were considering the better of the two. #My father taught school for 31 years so I have no problem&#39;s with teachers. #Just curious where you were going there Patrick.
I&#39;d guess Patrick has never worked WB2JKJ and has no knowledge of the radio station at Jr. High #22 in NYC. #Joe has used radio to teach inner city kids all kinds of stuff, from math to geography to political science, and whole bunches of those kids can&#39;t even read well when they first come in. #Then you end up talking with them on 15 meters and hearing their stories about how they not only learned CW but learned to think. #Guess that proves that there&#39;s no connection between ham radio and school teaching, eh?

[N7PXH]

Quote[/b] (KA5HZV @ Jan. 31 2005,05:11)]
Quote[/b] (N7PXH @ Jan. 30 2005,21:18)]Oh by the way, I guess I need to refer to you as junior operator seeing as you are ONLY an Advanced licensed ham,,,,how come you haven&#39;t upgraded to Extra?? #Oh I know, you must be real LAZY&#33;
Oh by the way, I guess I need to refer to you as junior operator seeing as you are ONLY an Advanced licensed ham,,,,how come you haven&#39;t upgraded to Extra?? #Oh I know, you must be real LAZY&#33;

No, I waiting for them to drop the requirment. I&#39;m not going to use that knowledge anyway so why do I have to learn it? If I want it later i will study it, but that should be my choice&#33;

I just hope and pray non of you no-coders are studying to be doctors..........
KA5HZV,

That comment was meant for Ken, not everyone in general.

[W7DME]

Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 31 2005,08:51)]Mike (K7OV),
If YOU didn&#39;t know a lot about ham radio and only had heard people talking about it, I believe YOU too would look at this particular thread with so many posts and wonder too about hams. #
Now then am I turned off by some of these? #You bet buddy&#33;&#33;&#33; #I&#39;m sure I&#39;m not alone there. #I have "talked it up" to lots of folks, some of which I&#39;m sure will continue on and get the license. #
I agree with you however, better here than on the air. #I think I&#39;ll just get them over here to "listen" on the air. #I live in an apartment and my antennas although modest, do work. #
I&#39;ll look for you on the air buddy. #Take care and 73 to you and yours.
I guess that if I was interested in Motorcycles and my only exposure was to a biker gang, I might be turned off too. I guess that is why it might be better to take people to places that foster more upbeat references to our hobby, that is, if we want to win them over. Show them that this is not the only forum for ham radio.

But this forum is just hams expressing their opinions, to which they are entitled. Sooner or later, they will be exposed to these people and will have to understand that this is just part of life, that we might have to hear ideas and opinions that we may not agree with, and that some people are going to be rude. That is just a part of life.

That you are not alone in your opinion is the same for all of us. Like I have mentioned in other comments, if you don&#39;t like what you are reading, don&#39;t read it. What makes you think that any of us, including you, have the right or power to tell others not to express their opinions, or deny them the forum to do so? I don&#39;t think you probably view it that way, but just because you and others don&#39;t like what you read here does not mean that those who write here don&#39;t have that right. You on the other hand, if offended, have the right to leave and not read these threads. It is just like someone buying Playboy, then objecting to pictures of naked women. Expressed another way, if you give a party and no one shows up, then you most likely won&#39;t give another party. The same is true here, if someone makes a post and no one reads or responds to it, then it will die on the vine, so to speak. As long as you keep objecting, someone is going to reply to it, because that is the way it works. On some level you should be aware of this. And since you are aware of these things, shouldn&#39;t it be your responsibility to explain this to your friends instead of trying to quash the expressions here, or blame those who do post here for somehow scareing somene away from Ham Radio?

If your friends looked at these posts and "Wondered" at them, then the one message they will get from this is that Hams are passionate about their opinions. I personally don&#39;t see anything wrong in that.

73,

Mike - K7OV

[KC7JTY]

Quote[/b] (w0vu @ Jan. 29 2005,16:35)]Who cares what you do http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?? Learning code today is a no brainer. #5 WPM is nothing.....
I must not have a brain?

[KC7JTY]

Quote[/b] (k7ov @ Jan. 30 2005,09:31)]
Quote[/b] (n0klu @ Jan. 25 2005,21:52)][quote=n0doz,Jan. 25 2005,15:18]Is this code crap EVER going to end?
It will end ONLY when Morse is dropped as a requirement. Until then savor it for that day will eventually come.

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Jan. 31 2005,13:14)]
Quote[/b] (k7ov @ Jan. 30 2005,09:31)]
Quote[/b] (n0klu @ Jan. 25 2005,21:52)][quote=n0doz,Jan. 25 2005,15:18]Is this code crap EVER going to end?
It will end ONLY when Morse is dropped as a requirement. Until then savor it for that day will eventually come.
First, Morse may or may not be dropped as a requirement. #It&#39;s not yet a "given". #However #the controversy will not end there. #For proof of that, see how many people are still complaining about the "Incentive Licensing" which came about in the 60s and has proved its worth over and over again&#33;&#33; #Some folks just won&#39;t let go&#33;&#33;

Good on the comments about all people having a right to have their voices heard. #I agree fully, and (as a right-wing extremist) have always maintained that, whether I agree with you or not, I will always defend your right to speak out.

[KB9KLC]

Quote[/b] (k7ov @ Jan. 31 2005,14:12)]
Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 31 2005,08:51)]Mike (K7OV),
If YOU didn&#39;t know a lot about ham radio and only had heard people talking about it, I believe YOU too would look at this particular thread with so many posts and wonder too about hams.
Now then am I turned off by some of these? You bet buddy&#33;&#33;&#33; I&#39;m sure I&#39;m not alone there. I have "talked it up" to lots of folks, some of which I&#39;m sure will continue on and get the license.
I agree with you however, better here than on the air. I think I&#39;ll just get them over here to "listen" on the air. I live in an apartment and my antennas although modest, do work.
I&#39;ll look for you on the air buddy. Take care and 73 to you and yours.
I guess that if I was interested in Motorcycles and my only exposure was to a biker gang, I might be turned off too. I guess that is why it might be better to take people to places that foster more upbeat references to our hobby, that is, if we want to win them over. Show them that this is not the only forum for ham radio.

But this forum is just hams expressing their opinions, to which they are entitled. Sooner or later, they will be exposed to these people and will have to understand that this is just part of life, that we might have to hear ideas and opinions that we may not agree with, and that some people are going to be rude. That is just a part of life.

That you are not alone in your opinion is the same for all of us. Like I have mentioned in other comments, if you don&#39;t like what you are reading, don&#39;t read it. What makes you think that any of us, including you, have the right or power to tell others not to express their opinions, or deny them the forum to do so? I don&#39;t think you probably view it that way, but just because you and others don&#39;t like what you read here does not mean that those who write here don&#39;t have that right. You on the other hand, if offended, have the right to leave and not read these threads. It is just like someone buying Playboy, then objecting to pictures of naked women. Expressed another way, if you give a party and no one shows up, then you most likely won&#39;t give another party. The same is true here, if someone makes a post and no one reads or responds to it, then it will die on the vine, so to speak. As long as you keep objecting, someone is going to reply to it, because that is the way it works. On some level you should be aware of this. And since you are aware of these things, shouldn&#39;t it be your responsibility to explain this to your friends instead of trying to quash the expressions here, or blame those who do post here for somehow scareing somene away from Ham Radio?

If your friends looked at these posts and "Wondered" at them, then the one message they will get from this is that Hams are passionate about their opinions. I personally don&#39;t see anything wrong in that.

73,

Mike - K7OV
Passionate indeed… This is after all a thread about Canada dropping the code. Looks like I got off track. Well good for Canada. I’ve been there beautiful country.
I do however live in the United States and love that fact. I suppose till the rules change here I’ll just follow the U.S. rules.
Thanks for the explanation on how threads and forums work. Now that I know no one here said anything hurtful, and it’s just the way forums work I’ll be better.
Passionate, well that’s an understatement.
73

[KC7JTY]

JF:
I seriously doubt that incentive licensing would carry 4 threads all located in the upper 1/3 of the current listing.
This Morse code as a requirement sure is a hot potato.
If Morse is dropped for all but extra there will be a short lull then we&#39;ll be right back at it all over again.
Just like having antique furniture, Morse should be a choice not a requirement.

[W7DME]

Quote[/b] (KB9KLC @ Jan. 31 2005,13:28)]#Thanks for the explanation on how threads and forums work. #Now that I know no one here said anything hurtful, and it’s just the way forums work I’ll be better.
#Passionate, well that’s an understatement. #
73
Look at what you just said: "Now that I know no one here said anything hurtful, and it’s just the way forums work I’ll be better."

Are you crying because some are abusive about how they express their opinions? You&#39;re in the wrong place to try to change these people&#33; I would suggest church as a good place, but the fact is most of these people probably don&#39;t go there. I am just guessing of course. It sounds like you might have a higher standard than they have, and that is not bad, but you need, in addition, a thicker skin, because neither of us is going to change these people. They don&#39;t respond to reprimands or even a good example. Blaming this forum or thread doesn&#39;t do anything but generate a repsonse from people like me who feel that they have as much right to be idiots as we do. There will always be those few who like to stir things up with personal attacks, and if you felt that my comments were personal, then I apologize, because I was just trying to honestly respond to a statement you made that I felt was a mis from the mark. My point in a nut shell is that if people are old enough to get a ham license, then they are old enough to understand that those type of people are around, no matter what hobby they are interested in. People who ride motorcycles, to use my previous example, simply have to understand that biker gangs exist. That should not deter anyone from enjoying their own hobbies. That there are people on the air who abuse the priveledge by using foul language or make harsh and personal attacks on the character of people on this or any other thread are just "part of doing business", you know, the good with the bad. I looked over my last comments, and although I stand by what I said, I can see where I might have fallen pray to some personal observations. Please accept my apology for that. In my frustration, I was just trying to get you to see a point.

73,

Mike - K7OV

Best,

Mike - K7OV

[M0CUS]

[I find the above evry odd. Unless you mean you went up to 10WPM and gave up. #I trained and became a Marine Radio Officer in 1980. The requirement was 22WPM and I don&#39;t know of ANY who gave up the course because of CW. In my class, I had retired old people who wanted to become R/Os because back then there was"big money" in it&#33; Several 50-60 year olds did pass the MRGC and go to sea and made fine operators.]

I was in the royal Navy and the RO&#39;s only had to pass at 5wpm . Now that does not mean they can only send at 5wpm (some could tx-rx at 40wpm)but that was the regulation code speed. Maybe different in the wavey navy though.

[KB9KLC]

Mike,
Ok. Let me start by saying I don’t need thicker skin. I’m already a ham LOL. I was simply conveying some thoughts reflected to me by people that don’t have the capabilities to post here yet. I usually don’t frequent frequencies that have the language and such that my grandkids couldn’t hear.
If I said anything wrong to you I’ll apologize, that was never my intent. You and indeed everyone have the right to express their opinion, as do I. The forums are “stimulating” to say the least. I think I had 8 posts before this thread and as you can see that number has went up. If I didn’t want to be here I wouldn’t. I think some have been abusive but I suppose it that’s their opinion, so be it.
I’ll still look forward to the qso area of ham radio, more than the forums however. Take care and I’ll look for you on the air.
73
Greg

[VE3LT]

YAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNN

The finger wheel on my mouse has gone around more times than the litigious bickering that is present here&#33;

Such contempt over such a debatable topic?

[VE3RXM]

Either way you look at it, you go with the flow. And for you folks out there bitching its the end of ham radio. Grow up you pompous asses this is a hobby you act like this a big secret fraturnity. We as hams provide a service. Times are changing you bitched about Echolink and Irlp. Now this??? Once it is passed the FCC will follow. I listen to some of you HF er&#39;s out there and you treat it like the CB band. Some of you want to take the hobby with you to the grave. Some of you won&#39;t even take the time to show a new ham the ropes and help he or she with code. So you have yourselves to blame. Alot of the negative comments I have read carefully from American hams are just plain selfish. Then again americans have been brought up under the assumption that they are better than everyone else in the world. They stick their noses into other countries business and get back what they get deserve back. So folks get off your high horses and quit bitching, you may find out there are a hell of alot of good hams out there. If you don&#39;t like the changes coming in the future then go to your next hamfest and sell your equipment. You never know I may be one of those good hams buying your equipment...hi hi.

[kd4mxe]

Quote[/b] (ve3rxm @ Jan. 31 2005,16:51)]Either way you look at it, you go with the flow. And for you folks out there bitching its the end of ham radio. Grow up you pompous asses this is a hobby you act like this a big secret fraturnity. We as hams provide a service. Times are changing you bitched about Echolink and Irlp. Now this??? Once it is passed the FCC will follow. I listen to some of you HF er&#39;s out there and you treat it like the CB band. Some of you want to take the hobby with you to the grave. Some of you won&#39;t even take the time to show a new ham the ropes and help he or she with code. So you have yourselves to blame. Alot of the negative comments I have read carefully from American hams are just plain selfish. Then again americans have been brought up under the assumption that they are better than everyone else in the world. They stick their noses into other countries business and get back what #they get deserve back. So folks get off your high horses and quit bitching, you may find out there are a hell of alot of good hams out there. If you don&#39;t like the changes coming in the future then go to your next hamfest and sell your equipment. You never know I may be one of those good hams buying your equipment...hi hi.
ve3rxm tell them like it is you got a good post, 73 good luck

[ki4hpz]

The death of ham radio will be hams looking down at hams. Code ham looking down at non code hams, etc. I have heard it said that 1/2 of the new hams do not renew there license. Wonder why? We are all God&#39;s children...Some need to start acting like.:D

[KC7JTY]

....like what?

[VE3LT]

Code ...No-Code...
Fascist...Socialist...
Colonial...Independent...
Rich…Poor…
Black... White...
Tutsi...Hutu...
Christian…Muslim…
Code…No-Code…

Americans eat their young&#33; All they can do is bitch because they fall under the false banner of free speech. (It actually means all the stupid people can talk and make fools of themselves with uninformed commentary, vile remarks and of course untenable vilification for their meager perspectives on this subject.) Oh Boy&#33; have they come out of the woodwork on this one ...AGAIN...&#33;

Many have said..."The hobby will fall on its face if we give away the silent HF bands to newcomers...oh my god...."

I have been listening to this crap for over fifteen years now. How many times have I read this bull#### in this thread so far? 45 pages and you wonder why a "Times Journalist" calls this hobby "slightly embarrasing"?
ki4hpz says it best by stating that this hobby will self destruct with all the internal prejudice&#33;
I don&#39;t see this in my other hobby which is flying. A night rated or Insturment guy does not look down his nose at a VFR guy. He knows the VFR guy can read the instruments only that he is not checked out by a CFI. We are all Pilots.
In no other avocation have I witness such disgusting acrimony as in this hobby, which by the way I partcipate in reguarly and enjoy (most of the time?). When I read the rhetoric in these threads I have to shake my head for a moment to see if this is real or just ball busting. Few (very few indeed) are actually well written, but most are just the accumulated drivel, rampant paranoia, racist ruminations, & other minutiae that degrade this hobby.
No one seems to have learned from history what all of this hatred has done, such as my comments at the top of this reply. Pitting Code against no code is flogging a dead horse.
The Code is going to go, so the old farts better face it. Better yet maybe we should all take our vitamins and just wait it out until all the Code Nazi&#39;s die off...Then the acrimonious hatred and all the fear mongering of the death of Ham Radio will have passed.

nuff said...

73 de Tom, closet anarchist & progenitor of anti evil empire movement

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Jan. 31 2005,13:40)]JF:
I seriously doubt that incentive licensing would carry 4 threads all located in the upper 1/3 of the current listing.
This Morse code as a requirement sure is a hot potato.
If Morse is dropped for all but extra there will be a short lull then we&#39;ll be right back at it all over again.
Just like having antique furniture, Morse should be a choice not a requirement.
Oh, I agree it&#39;s not the "hot" subject of the day. But I have seen adverse comments on "incentive licensing" as the "source of all our problems" on these boards very recently.

My real concern currently is a problem with people advocating expansion of the phone bands into the CW segment (or even, as some have said, banning CW) if the requirement is dropped. That will probably be the next step, and has already shown up on this thread. The CW bands are rather small at present (35 khz on 20 meters, for example, ain&#39;t much), but because of the narrow bandwidth it is presently adequate. 10% of the band isn&#39;t too much to ask, is it?

[KF4VGX]

Quote[/b] (ve3lt @ Jan. 31 2005,20:46)]Code ...No-Code...
Fascist...Socialist...
Colonial...Independent...
Rich…Poor…
Black... White...
Tutsi...Hutu...
Christian…Muslim…
Code…No-Code…

Americans eat their young&#33; All they can do is bitch because they fall under the false banner of free speech. (It actually means all the stupid people can talk and make fools of themselves with uninformed commentary, vile remarks and of course untenable vilification for their meager perspectives on this subject.) Oh Boy&#33; have they come out of the woodwork on this one ...AGAIN...&#33;

Many have said..."The hobby will fall on its face if we give away the silent HF bands to newcomers...oh my god...."

I have been listening to this crap for over fifteen years now. How many times have I read this bull#### in this thread so far? 45 pages and you wonder why a "Times Journalist" calls this hobby "slightly embarrasing"?
ki4hpz says it best by stating that this hobby will self destruct with all the internal prejudice&#33;
I don&#39;t see this in my other hobby which is flying. A night rated or Insturment guy does not look down his nose at a VFR guy. He knows the VFR guy can read the instruments only that he is not checked out by a CFI. We are all Pilots.
In no other avocation have I witness such disgusting acrimony as in this hobby, which by the way I partcipate in reguarly and enjoy (most of the time?). When I read the rhetoric in these threads I have to shake my head for a moment to see if this is real or just ball busting. Few (very few indeed) are actually well written, but most are just the accumulated drivel, rampant paranoia, racist ruminations, & other minutiae that degrade this hobby.
No one seems to have learned from history what all of this hatred has done, such as my comments at the top of this reply. Pitting Code against no code is flogging a dead horse.
The Code is going to go, so the old farts better face it. Better yet maybe we should all take our vitamins and just wait it out until all the Code Nazi&#39;s die off...Then the acrimonious hatred and all the fear mongering of the death of Ham Radio will have passed.

nuff said...

73 de Tom, closet anarchist & progenitor of anti evil empire movement
GEEZZZZZZZZZZZZzz &#33; # Take a chill pill&#33;


Quote,
( Americans eat their young&#33; All they can do is bitch because they fall under the false banner of free speech. )

We Don&#39;t eat our young &#33; What kind of fruit loop are you &#33;

And so to speak of FREE SPEECH #Err #? what are you doing ? Riding the wave of free speech ?

And then you say ,

73 de Tom, closet anarchist & progenitor of anti evil empire movement.

( Anti evil empire movement &#33; #) Let&#39;s think about this for a few seconds.
If evil had a movement ,your next comment brought it to life &#33;


( Americans eat their young&#33; ), let&#39;s get a grip now Tom.

That scares the Hell out of Amateur Radio operator&#39;s.
With you being in it.

[N0KLU]

Quote[/b] (k7ov @ Jan. 31 2005,02:31)]
Quote[/b] (n0klu @ Jan. 25 2005,21:52)]
Quote[/b] (n0doz @ Jan. 25 2005,15:18)]Is this code crap EVER going to end?
N0DOZ, I whole heartedly agree with you. I wish this devisive issue would be over. It make otherwise good hams act like fools. I for one will be so glad when the FCC makes a final decision one way or another, to stop this insane bickering between classes.
Gentlemen, it is not over until the fat lady sings&#33; The purpose of this forum is to allow people to express their opinions without resorting to the airwaves and otherwise causing a lot of QRM on the air.

But, your plea does not go unnoticed. Obviously, you are being held at gun or knife point to click on the appropriate links to get to this thread. Please let us know who is forcing you to read this stuff and we will send out troops to rescue you so that you don&#39;t have to read this&#33;

73,

Mike - K7OV
Mike, I have been making a collection of the terrible statements that have been said about those "------ no-coders" so I know who not to talk to when I hear them on the air&#33; Those who have had civil and decent comments I will be glad to talk with. I read these threads (this one&#39;s a rope) just for that purpose. You guys use Code as a filter, I use common decency as my filter.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[W7DME]

Quote[/b] (n0klu @ Jan. 31 2005,23:12)]
Quote[/b] (k7ov @ Jan. 31 2005,02:31)]
Quote[/b] (n0klu @ Jan. 25 2005,21:52)]
Quote[/b] (n0doz @ Jan. 25 2005,15:18)]Is this code crap EVER going to end?
N0DOZ, I whole heartedly agree with you. I wish this devisive issue would be over. It make otherwise good hams act like fools. I for one will be so glad when the FCC makes a final decision one way or another, to stop this insane bickering between classes.
Gentlemen, it is not over until the fat lady sings&#33; The purpose of this forum is to allow people to express their opinions without resorting to the airwaves and otherwise causing a lot of QRM on the air.

But, your plea does not go unnoticed. Obviously, you are being held at gun or knife point to click on the appropriate links to get to this thread. Please let us know who is forcing you to read this stuff and we will send out troops to rescue you so that you don&#39;t have to read this&#33;

73,

Mike - K7OV
Mike, I have been making a collection of the terrible statements that have been said about those "------ no-coders" so I know who not to talk to when I hear them on the air&#33; Those who have had civil and decent comments I will be glad to talk with. I read these threads (this one&#39;s a rope) just for that purpose. You guys use Code as a filter, I use common decency as my filter.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Common decency as a filter is not a bad thing, in fact maybe one of the better types. I have not said anything derogatory except to defend a persons right to speak their minds, even if I personally regard their comments to be rude, crude or just plain racist, such as the uncalled for remarks about our Canadian friends. One must realize that those people either make those comments to get something going, or if they really feel that way, have a screw loose. Either way, free speach is the American Way. That being said, I also support the site owners right not to allow it to be printed.

As for the "No Coders" I have no personal animosity toward them or their stand. I do hold an oposite opinion, but I have many friends who feel that way, but I still regard them in high esteem. You don&#39;t have to believe the way I do to be considered a friend of mine. I guess that is why I feel they have a right to express their opinions. I take issue with the idea that there is only one way to view an issue. If that were true, then there would be only one type of car, boat, airplane, food etc. I value the varied opinions and use them to examine my own. So, to me they are valuable. But, what I don&#39;t value, are people who use others actions and beliefs as an excuse for why they don&#39;t want or can&#39;t do something in life. What you, or anyone else does or believes does not affect my course through life unless I let it. I also don&#39;t keep track of those who I consider "Idiots" as I have better things to do with my life. I will talk to anyone on the air, until they make themselves unwelcome. I don&#39;t hold grudges, and I try not to judge people (hard for us humans not to do) and when I make a mistake, and I make many, I apologize.

As for the no code thing, I don&#39;t view it as a filter. I think it can be to a limited extend, but I do view it simply as one part of our hobby that deserves to be tested on, if it is a legal mode of communications, just like packet, Amtor, AM, FM, and SSB. I also believe that if we remove the code or CW requirement, we should remove the subbands that were specifically designated for CW and are commonly referred as the CW portion of the band. I am for the All in or All out approach, and see no value in a half way approach. Yes I got my extra when 20 WPM was the requirement, but don&#39;t feel that is necessarily something that needs to be passed on to posterity. I already had my 2nd Telegraph license, so I had to take that speed anyway, and I used my license as credit for the Extra.

The thing that does exasperate me though, is this idea that the FCC views code waivers for prospective hams who have handicaps as being "too much trouble". Wow, what an attitude for an agency whoes mandate is managment of communications. That might also be a violation of the Disabilities Act, but I don&#39;t know for sure, just guessing. But I view that as more of an issue than whether we require code or not. And, if you subscribe to the belief that No Code is just a short matter of time, then why would they not grant waivers in the interim so that those handicapped hams don&#39;t have to wait? Why do we discriminate against them? I can think of no valid answers to these questions. But rest assured that I value all of my Ham friends equally, code or no code.

73,

Mike - K7OV

[VE3LT]

Quote[/b] (kf4vgx @ Jan. 31 2005,17:14)]
Quote[/b] (ve3lt @ Jan. 31 2005,20:46)]Code ...No-Code...
Fascist...Socialist...
Colonial...Independent...
Rich…Poor…
Black... White...
Tutsi...Hutu...
Christian…Muslim…
Code…No-Code…

Americans eat their young&#33; All they can do is bitch because they fall under the false banner of free speech. (It actually means all the stupid people can talk and make fools of themselves with uninformed commentary, vile remarks and of course untenable vilification for their meager perspectives on this subject.) Oh Boy&#33; have they come out of the woodwork on this one ...AGAIN...&#33;

Many have said..."The hobby will fall on its face if we give away the silent HF bands to newcomers...oh my god...."

I have been listening to this crap for over fifteen years now. How many times have I read this bull#### in this thread so far? 45 pages and you wonder why a "Times Journalist" calls this hobby "slightly embarrasing"?
ki4hpz says it best by stating that this hobby will self destruct with all the internal prejudice&#33;
I don&#39;t see this in my other hobby which is flying. A night rated or Insturment guy does not look down his nose at a VFR guy. He knows the VFR guy can read the instruments only that he is not checked out by a CFI. We are all Pilots.
In no other avocation have I witness such disgusting acrimony as in this hobby, which by the way I partcipate in reguarly and enjoy (most of the time?). When I read the rhetoric in these threads I have to shake my head for a moment to see if this is real or just ball busting. Few (very few indeed) are actually well written, but most are just the accumulated drivel, rampant paranoia, racist ruminations, & other minutiae that degrade this hobby.
No one seems to have learned from history what all of this hatred has done, such as my comments at the top of this reply. Pitting Code against no code is flogging a dead horse.
The Code is going to go, so the old farts better face it. Better yet maybe we should all take our vitamins and just wait it out until all the Code Nazi&#39;s die off...Then the acrimonious hatred and all the fear mongering of the death of Ham Radio will have passed.

nuff said...

73 de Tom, closet anarchist & progenitor of anti evil empire movement
GEEZZZZZZZZZZZZzz &#33; # Take a chill pill&#33;


Quote,
( Americans eat their young&#33; All they can do is bitch because they fall under the false banner of free speech. )

We Don&#39;t eat our young &#33; What kind of fruit loop are you &#33;

And so to speak of FREE SPEECH #Err #? what are you doing ? Riding the wave of free speech ?

And then you say ,

73 de Tom, closet anarchist & progenitor of anti evil empire movement.

( Anti evil empire movement &#33; #) Let&#39;s think about this for a few seconds.
If evil had a movement ,your next comment brought it to life &#33;


( Americans eat their young&#33; ), let&#39;s get a grip now Tom.

That scares the Hell out of Amateur Radio operator&#39;s.
With you being in it.
kf4vgx
We Don&#39;t eat our young &#33; What kind of fruit loop are you &#33;


How can you deny the fact that the old are not persicuting the youner generation of newcomers by making the HF band an elitist club? I would say the deratement of the newcomers in this thread and those opossed to change is in fact"eating their young"

Its an expression which you frankly don&#39;t understand or can admit to.

[VE3LT]

Quote[/b] (kf4vgx @ Jan. 31 2005,17:14)]We Don&#39;t eat our young &#33; What kind of fruit loop are you &#33;



How can you deny the fact that the old are not persicuting the younger generation of newcomers by making the HF band an elitist club? I would say the beratement of the newcomers in this thread and those opossed to change is in fact "eating their young"

Its an expression which you frankly don&#39;t understand or can admit to.
You are in denial.

[N0OV]

Quote[/b] ]CANADA REPORTS AGREEMENT TO DROP MORSE

Who cares -- it&#39;s their country and they can do what they want.

If someone calls on a mode I am capable of answering, I&#39;ll have a QSO with them&#33;

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[KC7JTY]

Quote[/b] (ve3lt @ Jan. 30 2005,21:46)]Code ...No-Code...
Fascist...Socialist...
Colonial...Independent...
Rich…Poor…
Black... White...
Tutsi...Hutu...
Christian…Muslim…
Code…No-Code…

Americans eat their young&#33;.................
Isn&#39;t free speech wonderful?

It was said that incentive licensing was beneficial....well the legacy of incentive licensing is evident in the turmoil that is amateur radio today. Beneficial in the LONG run.....I don&#39;t think so.

[KC7JTY]

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Jan. 30 2005,22:30)]My real concern currently is a problem with people advocating expansion of the phone bands into the CW segment (or even, as some have said, banning CW) if the requirement is dropped. #That will probably be the next step, and has already shown up on this thread. #The CW bands are rather small at present (35 khz on 20 meters, for example, ain&#39;t much), but because of the narrow bandwidth it is presently adequate. #10% of the band isn&#39;t too much to ask, is it?
As tempting as it would be for me to support the BANNING of MORSE I never will because that would make me just like those I despise (you can guess who I&#39;m talking about).
If, on the other hand, Morse at some future date does fall significantly in band space as well as popularity I certainly won&#39;t shed a tear.

[N0KLU]

Quote[/b] (k7ov @ Feb. 01 2005,02:01)]
Quote[/b] (n0klu @ Jan. 31 2005,23:12)]
Mike, I have been making a collection of the terrible statements that have been said about those "------ no-coders" so I know who not to talk to when I hear them on the air&#33; Those who have had civil and decent comments I will be glad to talk with. I read these threads (this one&#39;s a rope) just for that purpose. You guys use Code as a filter, I use common decency as my filter.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Common decency as a filter is not a bad thing, in fact maybe one of the better types. I have not said anything derogatory except to defend a persons right to speak their minds, even if I personally regard their comments to be rude, crude or just plain racist, such as the uncalled for remarks about our Canadian friends. One must realize that those people either make those comments to get something going, or if they really feel that way, have a screw loose. Either way, free speach is the American Way. That being said, I also support the site owners right not to allow it to be printed.

As for the "No Coders" I have no personal animosity toward them or their stand. I do hold an oposite opinion, but I have many friends who feel that way, but I still regard them in high esteem. You don&#39;t have to believe the way I do to be considered a friend of mine. I guess that is why I feel they have a right to express their opinions. I take issue with the idea that there is only one way to view an issue. If that were true, then there would be only one type of car, boat, airplane, food etc. I value the varied opinions and use them to examine my own. So, to me they are valuable. But, what I don&#39;t value, are people who use others actions and beliefs as an excuse for why they don&#39;t want or can&#39;t do something in life. What you, or anyone else does or believes does not affect my course through life unless I let it. I also don&#39;t keep track of those who I consider "Idiots" as I have better things to do with my life. I will talk to anyone on the air, until they make themselves unwelcome. I don&#39;t hold grudges, and I try not to judge people (hard for us humans not to do) and when I make a mistake, and I make many, I apologize.

As for the no code thing, I don&#39;t view it as a filter. I think it can be to a limited extend, but I do view it simply as one part of our hobby that deserves to be tested on, if it is a legal mode of communications, just like packet, Amtor, AM, FM, and SSB. I also believe that if we remove the code or CW requirement, we should remove the subbands that were specifically designated for CW and are commonly referred as the CW portion of the band. I am for the All in or All out approach, and see no value in a half way approach. Yes I got my extra when 20 WPM was the requirement, but don&#39;t feel that is necessarily something that needs to be passed on to posterity. I already had my 2nd Telegraph license, so I had to take that speed anyway, and I used my license as credit for the Extra.

The thing that does exasperate me though, is this idea that the FCC views code waivers for prospective hams who have handicaps as being "too much trouble". Wow, what an attitude for an agency whoes mandate is managment of communications. That might also be a violation of the Disabilities Act, but I don&#39;t know for sure, just guessing. But I view that as more of an issue than whether we require code or not. And, if you subscribe to the belief that No Code is just a short matter of time, then why would they not grant waivers in the interim so that those handicapped hams don&#39;t have to wait? Why do we discriminate against them? I can think of no valid answers to these questions. But rest assured that I value all of my Ham friends equally, code or no code.

73,

Mike - K7OV
Mike please don&#39;t get me wrong, I wasn&#39;t pointing at you personally, I have no problems with dissenting opinions for we all have differing opinions that we hold dear. This is a good thing. but I am talking about those who have decided to become personal rude and degrading and that on both sides of this debate. I honor those who love the code, and believe that perhaps one day I might even decide to learn it also. When we take this debate and levy rude/degrading comments to a personal level it is out of bounds, a foul, and these who on more that just in the heated debate that use such should be discounted and for a time shunned until they reconcile their attitudes. This is why the comment of using "common decency as a filter" I understand not all use code as a filter but in reading this debate (on several different threads in the archives) there are those same individuals that seem to prefer rude and unseemly remarks to make their points. It really makes no difference to me if code stays or goes, I am quite happy on 2m SSB and 6m, which is where you&#39;ll find me most of the time. I do occasionally listen to HF.

73 my friend, maybe we will have a good QSO one day on the air.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[KF4VGX]

Quote[/b] (ve3lt @ Feb. 01 2005,09:12)]
Quote[/b] (kf4vgx @ Jan. 31 2005,17:14)]We Don&#39;t eat our young &#33; What kind of fruit loop are you &#33;



How can you deny the fact that the old are not persicuting the younger generation of newcomers by making the HF band an elitist club? I would say the beratement of the newcomers in this thread and those opossed to change is in fact "eating their young"

Its an expression which you frankly don&#39;t understand or can admit to.
You are in denial.
Its an expression , ( Eating our young ) # OK &#33;

While I agree Amateur&#39;s are argue mental over change.
I just think the term eating our young is a bit Harsh.


Maybe it was a bad choice of words.


We as amateur&#39;s are a close minded lot ,I have to agree.

It will take a whole new generation of Amateurs to filter it out.


Time is on my side &#33; Or is it? After all Im close to 50.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # 73

I&#39;m gonna go take my young out to eat lunch , and talk about whats on their minds with Amateur radio.

[W3TDM]

Well one thing is for sure it could be no worse than some of the cry babies that are on Hf right now and maybe when you get some of the tech class operators on Hf you will also get some control back on the band also
i here all sorts of people on Hf complain about one another and telling one another i was here first no i was here first maybe the tech class operators of today will bring back some order that the general and extra class operators lost track of when the fight of no code got the best of them and ruled there world.

maybe we should focus on what the Amateur operators are all about and maybe just sit back and see what happens.


# # # # # # # # # # # # # 73

.

[K0RGR]

Caramba&#33; Is this debate still raging?

It will be very interesting to see what happens if this comes to pass. Since our VE and VA brethren have no dividing lines between phone and CW bands, and historically, they have moved below the U.S. phone bands to escape our crowds, this could have real repercussions in the U.S..

[KE6IRP]

what a joke--- soon the arrl will have the chance to push this off on us--- lower standards----lids----- perfect---- man the arrl is a joke

[KE6IRP]

Quote[/b] (W3TDM @ Feb. 01 2005,11:03)]Well one thing is for sure it could be no worse than some of the cry babies that are on Hf right now and maybe when you get some of the tech class operators on
wrong my friend----- if you like vhf you&#39;ll love it when hf turns into cb--- you have seen nothing yet-- hf is still waaaaaaaaaay more organized, friendly etc than cb or vhf--- no comparrison--- KE6IRP

[W0VU]

Quote[/b] (ve3lt @ Jan. 30 2005,21:46)]Code ...No-Code...
Fascist...Socialist...
Colonial...Independent...
Rich…Poor…
Black... White...
Tutsi...Hutu...
Christian…Muslim…
Code…No-Code…

Americans eat their young&#33; All they can do is bitch because they fall under the false banner of free speech. (It actually means all the stupid people can talk and make fools of themselves with uninformed commentary, vile remarks and of course untenable vilification for their meager perspectives on this subject.) Oh Boy&#33; have they come out of the woodwork on this one ...AGAIN...&#33;

Many have said..."The hobby will fall on its face if we give away the silent HF bands to newcomers...oh my god...."

I have been listening to this crap for over fifteen years now. How many times have I read this bull#### in this thread so far? 45 pages and you wonder why a "Times Journalist" calls this hobby "slightly embarrasing"?
ki4hpz says it best by stating that this hobby will self destruct with all the internal prejudice&#33;
I don&#39;t see this in my other hobby which is flying. A night rated or Insturment guy does not look down his nose at a VFR guy. He knows the VFR guy can read the instruments only that he is not checked out by a CFI. We are all Pilots.
In no other avocation have I witness such disgusting acrimony as in this hobby, which by the way I partcipate in reguarly and enjoy (most of the time?). When I read the rhetoric in these threads I have to shake my head for a moment to see if this is real or just ball busting. Few (very few indeed) are actually well written, but most are just the accumulated drivel, rampant paranoia, racist ruminations, & other minutiae that degrade this hobby.
No one seems to have learned from history what all of this hatred has done, such as my comments at the top of this reply. Pitting Code against no code is flogging a dead horse.
The Code is going to go, so the old farts better face it. Better yet maybe we should all take our vitamins and just wait it out until all the Code Nazi&#39;s die off...Then the acrimonious hatred and all the fear mongering of the death of Ham Radio will have passed.

nuff said...

73 de Tom, closet anarchist & progenitor of anti evil empire movement
Just wait, if and when they drop the code here in the
US. Enought said.

73&#39;s BOB

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (ve3lt @ Feb. 01 2005,09:12)]How can you deny the fact that the old are not persicuting the younger generation of newcomers by making the HF band an elitist club? I would say the beratement of the newcomers in this thread and those opossed to change is in fact "eating their young"

Its an expression which you frankly don&#39;t understand or can admit to.
You are in denial.
I&#39;ll deny it in an instant. We have always made it easier for the young than we had it - it&#39;s a centuries-old tradition here. If we were "persicuting" our young, we would be making it more difficult than we had it, when in fact it is indeniably easier. Methinks you have it backward.

Nothing elitist about HF. Just pass the test, and you are welcome to join in. Really quite simple.

[ki4hpz]

At one time it was thought that the earth was flat, and it was thought that cutting a hole in ones head would let evil spirits out, and there was no immunization against polio. The human story over the ages is change. How many would refuse good medical treatment due to outdated thoughts.

Only thing doomed here is old outdated philosophies. To live in the human race is to embrace change and enjoy…

Please do not spend your time on earth being filled with hatred against code or non code hams. One day you will wake up and wonder where life has gone...

[ki4hpz]

I hate to break the news to some of you. But when you die, you will not be judged on code or non code...The hatred in your heart may be a judgement factor...

Sorry&#33;

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[W8RKG]

It&#39;s about time CW is something you should have to do ONLY if you want. I should not be forced to learn something I will never use, or let make everyone learn PACTOR/PACKET/PSK31 and SATOPS
in order to get on HF...Let&#39;s all wakeup and remove the CW from testing this is 2005 not 1950 Times they be a changing http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ki4hpz]

To answer all, ask yourselves, in case of a real emergency does the FCC care if you use HF without passing a code test?

That is the true test of how important code is. Just a mode...

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[N0OV]

Yawn. What does this have to do with Canada dropping morse code?

It&#39;s their decision.

[KC7JTY]

RKG: How did you end up in Camden, DE with an 8 land call?

[W3TDM]

well you may be right about being more organized that is not the issue at hand why not let the people with tech class take a written test for general class and move forward if they want to move to extra class then i guess they will have to know code.
but on the other hand i know extra class operators who can not even solder a wire, read schematics, etc etc
and as for CB this is not at all about 11 meters and there are people on hf right now with extra class that are not as smart as a cb operator so i guess it still revolves around the old timers and should we keep code or let Amateur radio be a dying art.

[N0KLU]

Quote[/b] (W3TDM @ Feb. 01 2005,13:16)]well you may be right about being more organized that is not the issue at hand why not let the people with tech class take a written test for general class and move forward if they want to move to extra class then i guess they will have to know code.
but on the other hand i know extra class operators who can not even solder a wire, read schematics, etc etc
and as for CB this is not at all about 11 meters and there are people on hf right now with extra class that are not as smart as a cb operator so i guess it still revolves around the old timers and should we keep code or let Amateur radio be a dying art.
W3TDM, I like your Avitar of the eagle/flag over the cross.


I also liked your comments&#33;

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[W5TVW]

It&#39;s a sad day in Amateur Radio&#33; #Too bad the simpletons around can&#39;t at least learn 5 wpm and preserve "Morse", one of the most elegant forms of simple radio communication&#33;
I&#39;ve been around this game since 1949 when I was a kid. #I struggled with Morse for a long time but finally learnt it&#33; #
Judging from some of the "newbie" hams in the game who want to talk and nothing else, we will, in a few more years, have a giant wasteland on HF radio, which WILL have a tendency to turn into a giant "CB" band&#33; #(If you like the idea or not&#33;)
There are some of the "newbies" who are still polite, respect the older modes, and some who are VERY good CW operators, but there seems to be a faction (both new and old) who want to get rid of the "hated code" as soon as possible.
When their numbers are many, you can count on CW and AM operations being alienated just as smokers are today&#33; #Will CW operation become "banned"? #Or possibly just run off the bands completely some other way?
I hope not for at least the preservation of a bit of important history.
73,
Sandy W5TVW

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (w5tvw @ Feb. 01 2005,19:54)]It&#39;s a sad day in Amateur Radio&#33; #Too bad the simpletons around can&#39;t at least learn 5 wpm and preserve "Morse", one of the most elegant forms of simple radio communication&#33;
I&#39;ve been around this game since 1949 when I was a kid. #I struggled with Morse for a long time but finally learnt it&#33; #
Judging from some of the "newbie" hams in the game who want to talk and nothing else, we will, in a few more years, have a giant wasteland on HF radio, which WILL have a tendency to turn into a giant "CB" band&#33; #(If you like the idea or not&#33;)
There are some of the "newbies" who are still polite, respect the older modes, and some who are VERY good CW operators, but there seems to be a faction (both new and old) who want to get rid of the "hated code" as soon as possible.
When their numbers are many, you can count on CW and AM operations being alienated just as smokers are today&#33; #Will CW operation become "banned"? #Or possibly just run off the bands completely some other way?
I hope not for at least the preservation of a bit of important history.
73,
Sandy W5TVW
W5TVW,
#I agree with your comments,--It seems that many
#today think that a ham ticket is a "right" and not
#a "privalege", for some reason.
#CW is "old fashion", and #working for
#something is also "old fashion".
#We live in a new world of "entitlements", and
#"quick results" with little or no effort.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # 73, K1MVP # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[K4JF]

There are, and will always be, bad operators in every license class. There are, and always will be, good operators in every license class. It is our responsibility to help make sure that the latter always outnumber the former.

[N0DOZ]

I don&#39;t want to get rid of code, just the moronic debate about it.

[N0DOZ]

400+ posts about something over which you all have absolutely no control... why?

[N0KLU]

Quote[/b] (n0doz @ Feb. 01 2005,17:14)]400+ posts about something over which you all have absolutely no control... why?
Maybe, they just like to fuss and argue... But most I think just want thier opinions to be heard. Each side has the "die-hard" and "opinionated to the death" the "I will hate you if it goes/stays" and finaly the smaller group that is civil and discuses the potential problems and the potential gains of each side of the equation. Anywhere there is a good subject to fight over... Deer hunting "calls" include "deer antlers" why? they also just love a good fight. I sort of enjoyed the humorus "Hammandoes".

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Lets see if this can get up to 1000&#33; Go team&#33; Sick-em Sharks&#33;

[VK2XXL]

NO MORSE CODE REQUIRMENTS TO GET YOUNG PEOPLE IN THE HOBBIE AND KEEP IT GOING period

[KL7FZ]

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Jan. 31 2005,13:23)]
Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Jan. 31 2005,13:14)]
Quote[/b] (k7ov @ Jan. 30 2005,09:31)]
Quote[/b] (n0klu @ Jan. 25 2005,21:52)][quote=n0doz,Jan. 25 2005,15:18]Is this code crap EVER going to end?
It will end ONLY when Morse is dropped as a requirement. Until then savor it for that day will eventually come.
First, Morse may or may not be dropped as a requirement. #It&#39;s not yet a "given". #However #the controversy will not end there. #For proof of that, see how many people are still complaining about the "Incentive Licensing" which came about in the 60s and has proved its worth over and over again&#33;&#33; #Some folks just won&#39;t let go&#33;&#33;

Good on the comments about all people having a right to have their voices heard. #I agree fully, and (as a right-wing extremist) have always maintained that, whether I agree with you or not, I will always defend your right to speak out.
Incentive licensing proved it&#39;s worth?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Say what??

It darn near killed Amateur Radio all by itself. It caused a drop in numbers. A loss of experienced and knowledgeable hams that never came back and have not been replaced. The demise of a few good American radio manufacturers.

If Incentive Licensing had died back then, we would not be having the present problems.

I was a General before the ARRL screwed up things with their grand scheme.
Incentive Licensing.....Phooey&#33;

#KL7FZ

[PY2XC]

Here in Brazil we are going the same way... I think it is just fine: PY on CW will soon be, as it was in the past, a rare DX. Maybe some DXpeditions would be planned.

[W1YW]

Quote[/b] (w5tvw @ Feb. 01 2005,19:54)]It&#39;s a sad day in Amateur Radio&#33; #Too bad the simpletons around can&#39;t at least learn 5 wpm and preserve "Morse", one of the most elegant forms of simple radio communication&#33;
I&#39;ve been around this game since 1949 when I was a kid. #I struggled with Morse for a long time but finally learnt it&#33; #
Judging from some of the "newbie" hams in the game who want to talk and nothing else, we will, in a few more years, have a giant wasteland on HF radio, which WILL have a tendency to turn into a giant "CB" band&#33; #(If you like the idea or not&#33;)
There are some of the "newbies" who are still polite, respect the older modes, and some who are VERY good CW operators, but there seems to be a faction (both new and old) who want to get rid of the "hated code" as soon as possible.
When their numbers are many, you can count on CW and AM operations being alienated just as smokers are today&#33; #Will CW operation become "banned"? #Or possibly just run off the bands completely some other way?
I hope not for at least the preservation of a bit of important history.
73,
Sandy W5TVW
To me, saying someone is a simpleton because they don&#39;t want to learn Morse is like saying someone is retarded because they don&#39;t sing with perfect pitch.

The bizarre character of these rants is clear: although the issue is &#39;should CW be an entry barrier to HF?&#39;, it is being played out as &#39;don&#39;t take morse away from me or say I&#39;m a baddie because I used it&#33;&#39;.

Remember, when the CW requirement drops--and it will drop in the US-- that doesn&#39;t mean someone can&#39;t USE CW. It doesn&#39;t mean new hams can&#39;t LEARN CW. It means they just don&#39;t HAVE to learn it.

Big deal. Typical modern day ham non-controversy. Like BPL. What a disputatious bunch we must look like to others.

73,
Chip N1IR

[K1MVP]

Quote[/b] (n0doz @ Feb. 01 2005,23:14)]400+ posts about something over which you all have absolutely no control... why?
I agree, we have "no control" now, as the FCC sought
comments on this "restucturing" issue back in April of
last year on the FCC EFCS(electronic comment system)
website.
Comments were open to the public on different
petitions,(ARRL RM-10867, RAF-10868, and NCVEC
RM-10870) and others as I recall.
The question is how many who are complaining now,
did in fact submit thier comments back then when it
"counted".
Its sort of complaining about election results, when
you don`t take the time to vote.

# # # # # # # # # # # #73, K1MVP #
# #
# # P.S., I would agree,--"chewing" on this subject is
# # # # # # getting old,--its up to the FCC now.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[K1MVP]

KL7FZ,
#quote,"incentive licensing proved its worth? say what"?
# # # # # "killed amateur radio"?
#
#Not as I recall,--true, we may not have "liked" to
#retest to regain our #privaleges when
#incentive licensing was instituted back in the late
#60`s, but most of us did NOT complain,--we just
#"hit the books" and did what was required to get
# get the advanced license, and YES we were better
# off for it in the "long run".

# # # # # # # # # # # # #73, K1MVP

# # P.S., But of course, that was back when a ham
# # # # # #ticket was not considered a "right" but a
# # # # # #"privalege"
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (KL7FZ @ Feb. 02 2005,01:52)]
Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Jan. 31 2005,13:23)]
Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Jan. 31 2005,13:14)]
Quote[/b] (k7ov @ Jan. 30 2005,09:31)]
Quote[/b] (n0klu @ Jan. 25 2005,21:52)][quote=n0doz,Jan. 25 2005,15:18]Is this code crap EVER going to end?
It will end ONLY when Morse is dropped as a requirement. Until then savor it for that day will eventually come.
First, Morse may or may not be dropped as a requirement. #It&#39;s not yet a "given". #However #the controversy will not end there. #For proof of that, see how many people are still complaining about the "Incentive Licensing" which came about in the 60s and has proved its worth over and over again&#33;&#33; #Some folks just won&#39;t let go&#33;&#33;

Good on the comments about all people having a right to have their voices heard. #I agree fully, and (as a right-wing extremist) have always maintained that, whether I agree with you or not, I will always defend your right to speak out.
Incentive licensing proved it&#39;s worth?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Say what??

It darn near killed Amateur Radio all by itself. It caused a drop in numbers. A loss of experienced and knowledgeable hams that never came back and have not been replaced. The demise of a few good American radio manufacturers.

If Incentive Licensing had died back then, we would not be having the present problems.

I was a General before the ARRL screwed up things with their grand scheme.
Incentive Licensing.....Phooey&#33;

#KL7FZ
I will try hard to not take that personally, since I am a ham ONLY because of incentive licensing. I may not have developed any new electonics, but I did work my way up to Extra (and passed the slow 20 WPM CW test), have helped with a number of emergency situations over the years, Elmered several hams all the way to Extra, made friends all over the world, and am now a VE, helping new hams make the grade. And this is not bragging, because my accomplishments are small beside many of my peers.

With the responsibilities of raising a family, developing a career, helping with civic affairs, and numerous other things, I would never have been able to become a ham without incentive licensing. So I am not "experienced and knowledgable" and am worthless to some people, and ham radio would have been better without me (and the thousands and thousands just like me). >sigh< Oh, well. BTW, most of the hams I knew before the 70s were still at it decades later, so I don&#39;t think we "lost" all that many, just because the later ones could do it in steps.

[N0DOZ]

I agree that it&#39;s at best amusing to read the posts that seethe with anger over this subject. The ones that really get me laughing are the ones implying that, if you didn&#39;t get licensed way back when you had to go down to the FCC for testing, you aren&#39;t a REAL ham. Too funny... as if anyone has control over when they were born, or when they discover ham radio.
It&#39;s not about incentive, or what makes a ham "real."
It&#39;s about whether or not a person has an interest in radio strong enough to get further into the hobby, or get in it in the first place. It&#39;s also about having enough free time to work at it.
Here&#39;s a good analogy I just thought of (should have sooner): You get the same vote for keeping code as you do for who&#39;s the next Pope.

[N1XHF]

Quote[/b] (W3TDM @ Jan. 31 2005,20:16)]well you may be right about being more organized that is not the issue at hand why not let the people with tech class take a written test for general class and move forward if they want to move to extra class then i guess they will have to know code.
but on the other hand i know extra class operators who can not even solder a wire, read schematics, etc etc
and as for CB this is not at all about 11 meters and there are people on hf right now with extra class that are not as smart as a cb operator so i guess it still revolves around the old timers and should we keep code or let Amateur radio be a dying art.
It&#39;s funny you say that because I see the same thing around here where I have people wanting me a lonely tech to fix their radios or wire a mic.

Some people forget that some on HF never really even passed a CW test. If memory serves me correct that in the past it only took 2 generals or higher to sign off on a CW endorsement and that a lot of people were given endorsements by their buddies when in fact they had never even touched a key

[VE3LT]

Quote[/b] (w5tvw @ Feb. 01 2005,14:54)]I&#39;ve been around this game since 1949 when I was a kid. #I struggled with Morse for a long time but finally learnt it&#33; #
Judging from some of the "newbie" hams in the game who want to talk and nothing else, we will, in a few more years, have a giant wasteland on HF radio, which WILL have a tendency to turn into a giant "CB" band&#33; #(If you like the idea or not&#33;)
There are some of the "newbies" who are still polite, respect the older modes, and some who are VERY good CW operators, but there seems to be a faction (both new and old) who want to get rid of the "hated code" as soon as possible.
I can think of a good annalogy to this situation of old farts vs newcomers...
I have another hobby which is muscle cars. I have been an avid piston head for longer than I have been a radio enthusiast.
You mention that fact that HF will become a wasteland... I think not.
Us old farts still love and preserve our cars and I love to go to car shows with my old car. I look at the new kids with their 19 inch wheels and their boom box sound systems and the fancy paint jobs and wonder. Its not the same as my vintage muscle car but it is interesting&#33; Its remarkable that these little four cylinders can turn a 12.5 in the quarter mile and all they have to do is pop in a &#036;109 - 32 pin chip and the car goes faster&#33; I do it the old way with hard work, greasy hands and mechanical parts. (CW vs Digital) Does that mean I expect everyone to do what I love and admire such as rebuilding an engine? No...There are different ways to achive the same goal.
What is the goal of Amateur Radio? It is not clearly defined for many of us who are denizens of this radio hobby.
This is the same argument that "If I learned CW, then you must too..." This is unnatainable and realistically will never happen, just like the kid who will never own a 67 Mustang or a big block Chevelle. Not just because he can&#39;t find one but because he wants to do the same thing as the other kids of the present day. (and there is nothing wrong with that)
Do we shun these newcomers...no, we embrace them and they ralley around the older cars with envy as they realize that these vintage vehicles are in high demand because of their "rarity", and are respected because of their horsepower. The young build these "J" bodies and imports because that is their niche&#39;. The newcomers to Amateur radio do the same as they fall into the countless catagories of this diverse hobby. They play with what they like.
If there were more muscle cars (or money) available to them, they would do what I do, but they work with what they have available and can afford. The same goes for Ham radio. If a newcomer wants to get their feet wet, they buy a handheld for a hundred bucks at a hamfest. Don&#39;t brow beat these individuals because they have taken a shining to the hobby of radio but have not learned the code yet&#33; Not many will spend thousands on an HF rig and build multiple long wires and beams and erect towers of glory&#33;
The CW issue is such a heated and acrimonious topic it should not divide us, but should unite us all. Stop the no-code bashing and help the newcomers evolve in all aspects of this diverse avocation.

73 de Tom, Anti Ham basher, Champion & eschewer of facetious posts & non believer in the apocalyptic death of Ham Radio

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (n0doz @ Feb. 02 2005,08:20)]I agree that it&#39;s at best amusing to read the posts that seethe with anger over this subject. #The ones that really get me laughing are the ones implying that, if you didn&#39;t get licensed way back when you had to go down to the FCC for testing, you aren&#39;t a REAL ham. #Too funny... as if anyone has control over when they were born, or when they discover ham radio.
It&#39;s not about incentive, or what makes a ham "real." #
It&#39;s about whether or not a person has an interest in radio strong enough to get further into the hobby, or get in it in the first place. #It&#39;s also about having enough free time to work at it. #
Here&#39;s a good analogy I just thought of (should have sooner): You get the same vote for keeping code as you do for who&#39;s the next Pope.
I agree with all but the analogy. #We didn&#39;t get asked for comments (and those comments taken into consideration and answers documented, as it will be) on who will be the next Pope. #Sorry.... not the same. #The FCC is required by law to take into consideration the input of the public on this and other issues.

Now about the comment of FCC office testing. #I got my General at the FCC office in Atlanta, but I never took the 13 WPM test. #Impossible, you say? #Here&#39;s how. #As much as I disliked initially relearning the code, I used the heck out of it while a Novice, getting up into the mid 20s. #When I went to Atlanta, I took the 20 wpm test first, feeling that 13 would seem slow after that and make it easier (nervous, you know). #Well, I passed sending, but failed receiving by one character. #The examiner said "I know that was just due to nervousness, so I&#39;ll sign off on 13. #Go on in and take the written." #Years later, I took the Extra, complete with 20 wpm CW, which seemed really slow by then. #So even though I&#39;m a 20 wpm Extra, I never took the 13 wpm test to get there. >chuckle<

By the way, I sent my suggestions about CW testing to ARRL, and it isn&#39;t all that far from their position with the FCC. #So I get to feel like they listened. #Now, it&#39;s just wait and see what the FCC does. #And take flak from BOTH sides on this issue&#33;&#33; #:o)

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (N1XHF @ Feb. 02 2005,08:21)]Some people forget that some on HF never really even passed a CW test. If memory serves me correct that in the past it only took 2 generals or higher to sign off on a CW endorsement and that a lot of people were given endorsements by their buddies when in fact they had never even touched a key
Don&#39;t remember that one - - at least in the last 30 years. Care to document it??

[W5RCP]

Quote[/b] (K1MVP @ Feb. 02 2005,06:28)]
Quote[/b] (n0doz @ Feb. 01 2005,23:14)]400+ posts about something over which you all have absolutely no control... why?
I agree, we have "no control" now, as the FCC sought
comments on this "restucturing" issue back in April of
last year on the FCC EFCS(electronic comment system)
website.
Comments were open to the public on different
petitions,(ARRL RM-10867, RAF-10868, and NCVEC
RM-10870) and others as I recall.
The question is how many who are complaining now,
did in fact submit thier comments back then when it
"counted".
Its sort of complaining about election results, when
you don`t take the time to vote.

73, K1MVP

P.S., I would agree,--"chewing" on this subject is
getting old,--its up to the FCC now.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
They don&#39;t pay a bit of attention to us...... just like elections...i.e. April 2000 and Nov 2000

[W5RCP]

[
[QUOTE]It&#39;s funny you say that because I see the same thing around here where I have people wanting me a lonely tech to fix their radios or wire a mic.

Hey, I can apply a bandaid... does that make me a doctor. You need to get a mic fixing license... No Code required

[W5RCP]

Quote[/b] (ve3lt @ Feb. 02 2005,09:38)]
Quote[/b] (w5tvw @ Feb. 01 2005,14:54)]I&#39;ve been around this game since 1949 when I was a kid. I struggled with Morse for a long time but finally learnt it&#33;
Judging from some of the "newbie" hams in the game who want to talk and nothing else, we will, in a few more years, have a giant wasteland on HF radio, which WILL have a tendency to turn into a giant "CB" band&#33; (If you like the idea or not&#33;)
There are some of the "newbies" who are still polite, respect the older modes, and some who are VERY good CW operators, but there seems to be a faction (both new and old) who want to get rid of the "hated code" as soon as possible.
I can think of a good annalogy to this situation of old farts vs newcomers...
I have another hobby which is muscle cars. I have been an avid piston head for longer than I have been a radio enthusiast.
You mention that fact that HF will become a wasteland... I think not.
Us old farts still love and preserve our cars and I love to go to car shows with my old car. I look at the new kids with their 19 inch wheels and their boom box sound systems and the fancy paint jobs and wonder. Its not the same as my vintage muscle car but it is interesting&#33; Its remarkable that these little four cylinders can turn a 12.5 in the quarter mile and all they have to do is pop in a &#036;109 - 32 pin chip and the car goes faster&#33; I do it the old way with hard work, greasy hands and mechanical parts. (CW vs Digital) Does that mean I expect everyone to do what I love and admire such as rebuilding an engine? No...There are different ways to achive the same goal.
What is the goal of Amateur Radio? It is not clearly defined for many of us who are denizens of this radio hobby.
This is the same argument that "If I learned CW, then you must too..." This is unnatainable and realistically will never happen, just like the kid who will never own a 67 Mustang or a big block Chevelle. Not just because he can&#39;t find one but because he wants to do the same thing as the other kids of the present day. (and there is nothing wrong with that)
Do we shun these newcomers...no, we embrace them and they ralley around the older cars with envy as they realize that these vintage vehicles are in high demand because of their "rarity", and are respected because of their horsepower. The young build these "J" bodies and imports because that is their niche&#39;. The newcomers to Amateur radio do the same as they fall into the countless catagories of this diverse hobby. They play with what they like.
If there were more muscle cars (or money) available to them, they would do what I do, but they work with what they have available and can afford. The same goes for Ham radio. If a newcomer wants to get their feet wet, they buy a handheld for a hundred bucks at a hamfest. Don&#39;t brow beat these individuals because they have taken a shining to the hobby of radio but have not learned the code yet&#33; Not many will spend thousands on an HF rig and build multiple long wires and beams and erect towers of glory&#33;
The CW issue is such a heated and acrimonious topic it should not divide us, but should unite us all. Stop the no-code bashing and help the newcomers evolve in all aspects of this diverse avocation.

73 de Tom, Anti Ham basher, Champion & eschewer of facetious posts & non believer in the apocalyptic death of Ham Radio
Holy Crap.... I hope you can do at least 100wpm or we&#39;d be at it all night long. Old cars...young kids??? Do you have sleep problems or something.... This is nutso&#33;

[KB8UYC]

Here is my thought.

I have been licensed now for just over 10 years. I tried a couple of times to force myself to learn the code. I just cannot. I know a few of the letters but that is it. I hope that the USA pulls the morse code requirement for certain HF bands. This will allow most of us that are restricted to 2 meters to buy better equipment and be able to move forward in the hobby that we all love. Please dont get me wrong. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with code. Code is what Amateur Radio was founded on, but we have to realize that we are now in the 21 century and a digital age. Most of the "New" hams dont want anything to do with code, where in the "older" hams do. This is great&#33; I like the idea of leaving the Advanced(or extra class) with 5 wpm, but everything else should not have a code requirement. A lot of people believe that this will be an end to ham radio. How can that be?? Many more people will be able to use their HF equipment that they have in storage for years. HF will be fun yet again&#33; All the hams will just have to learn to get along with the "newbies" I really think that it will be a great moment in Ham radio when they lift the code requirment.

Eric-KB8UYC

[KC7JTY]

Quote[/b] (n0klu @ Jan. 31 2005,20:41)]W3TDM, I like your Avitar of the eagle/flag over the cross.
Is that what that is?

[KC7JTY]

Quote[/b] (n0doz @ Feb. 01 2005,00:04)]I don&#39;t want to get rid of code, just the moronic debate about it.
The two go hand in hand. You won&#39;t have code as a req. without the debate. If you enjoy the 5 wpm req. make the best of the moronic debate cause its here till the code goes.

[KC7JTY]

Quote[/b] (KL7FZ @ Feb. 01 2005,02:52)]If Incentive Licensing had died back then, we would not be having the present problems.

I was a General before the ARRL screwed up things with their grand scheme.
Incentive Licensing.....Phooey&#33;

#KL7FZ
< B R A V O&#33; >

[W5RCP]

Quote[/b] (KB8UYC @ Feb. 02 2005,11:39)]Here is my thought.

I have been licensed now for just over 10 years. I tried a couple of times to force myself to learn the code. I just cannot. I know a few of the letters but that is it. I hope that the USA pulls the morse code requirement for certain HF bands. This will allow most of us that are restricted to 2 meters to buy better equipment and be able to move forward in the hobby that we all love. Please dont get me wrong. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with code. Code is what Amateur Radio was founded on, but we have to realize that we are now in the 21 century and a digital age. Most of the "New" hams dont want anything to do with code, where in the "older" hams do. This is great&#33; I like the idea of leaving the Advanced(or extra class) with 5 wpm, but everything else should not have a code requirement. A lot of people believe that this will be an end to ham radio. How can that be?? Many more people will be able to use their HF equipment that they have in storage for years. HF will be fun yet again&#33; All the hams will just have to learn to get along with the "newbies" I really think that it will be a great moment in Ham radio when they lift the code requirment.

Eric-KB8UYC
Eric... Come on now&#33; This is a language with only 26 words. People learn to speak Spanish everyday... you can&#39;t learn 26 sounds?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif? If we flood the airwaves with people who can not learn a 26 word language how is this good for Ham Radio... No my friend, it is good for you because you get what you have not earned, but not for Ham Radio......

[KC7JTY]

Quote[/b] (n1ir @ Feb. 01 2005,06:22)]Remember, when the CW requirement drops--and it will drop in the US-- that doesn&#39;t mean someone can&#39;t USE CW. It doesn&#39;t mean new hams can&#39;t LEARN CW. It means they just don&#39;t HAVE to learn it.

Big deal. Typical modern day ham non-controversy. Like BPL. What a disputatious bunch we must look like to others.

73,
Chip N1IR
Its just as evil to them...loosing CW altogeather or loosing the required 5 wpm test makes no difference.

[KE6IRP]

Quote[/b] (KB8UYC @ Feb. 02 2005,11:39)]Here is my thought.

I have been licensed now for just over 10 years. I tried a couple of times to force myself to learn the code. I just cannot. I know a few of the letters but that is it. I hope that the USA pulls the morse code requirement for certain HF bands. This will allow most of us that are restricted to 2 meters to buy better equipment and be able to move forward in the hobby that we all love. YC
Ok-- well said-- I love the code and see its importance in the ars and hobby--- but if the arrl was as wise as this fellow I would join them&#33; This guy takes a reasonable view-- maybe drop code for a limited hf band like say a part of 10? Perfect----- but the wholesale dropping of cw is the same old crap that is ruling the world these days---- lowered standards--people just don&#39;t want to work hard, period, no amount of silly blog arguing will ever convince me------- now I am not talking about the folks with challenges that don&#39;t allow them to learn the code-- hell-- i say waive em in asap&#33; ---but folks who can learn a simple 5wpm test can and do and should and they will have a greated psychic investment in the ars and hobby which will be good for us all--- ham radio is wonderful----- the arrl needs to advocate better, lobby better, stay way stronger, and grow up-- Chris KE6IRP _ _ ... ..._ _

[KC7JTY]

Quote[/b] (K1MVP @ Feb. 01 2005,07:28)]
Quote[/b] (n0doz @ Feb. 01 2005,23:14)]400+ posts about something over which you all have absolutely no control... why?
I agree, we have "no control" now, as the FCC sought
comments on this "restucturing" issue back in April of
last year on the FCC EFCS(electronic comment system)
website.
Comments were open to the public on different
petitions,(ARRL RM-10867, RAF-10868, and NCVEC
RM-10870) and others as I recall.
The question is how many who are complaining now,
did in fact submit thier comments back then when it
"counted".
Its sort of complaining about election results, when
you don`t take the time to vote.

# # # # # # # # # # # #73, K1MVP #
# #
# # P.S., I would agree,--"chewing" on this subject is
# # # # # # getting old,--its up to the FCC now.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
The people&#39;s complaining about the Ukraine election got some results. The American revolutionaries complaining got some results. DICK NIXON resigned.......had everyone been polite about it he would have served his term.
The complaining makes you pro codies uncomfortable as hell and that is results too.

[KE6IRP]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Feb. 02 2005,12:22)][ The complaining makes you pro codies uncomfortable as hell and that is results too.
not really-- I think hams are just concerned that like a lot of things, piece by piece the quality is being/has been dissmantled in a gradual way and folks are just standing up to protect a wonderful and soulful hobby and service in a world where CLEARLY many folks just look for the easy way-- that&#39;s all---- chill my friend--- we (you ) are all entitled to our opinions&#33;

[KE6IRP]

Save the code--- hey - i think i am the 500th comment&#33;

[AE1X]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Feb. 02 2005,14:22)]
Quote[/b] (K1MVP @ Feb. 01 2005,07:28)]
Quote[/b] (n0doz @ Feb. 01 2005,23:14)]400+ posts about something over which you all have absolutely no control... why?
I agree, we have "no control" now, as the FCC sought
comments on this "restucturing" issue back in April of
last year on the FCC EFCS(electronic comment system)
website.
Comments were open to the public on different
petitions,(ARRL RM-10867, RAF-10868, and NCVEC
RM-10870) and others as I recall.
The question is how many who are complaining now,
did in fact submit thier comments back then when it
"counted".
Its sort of complaining about election results, when
you don`t take the time to vote.

# # # # # # # # # # # #73, K1MVP #
# #
# # P.S., I would agree,--"chewing" on this subject is
# # # # # # getting old,--its up to the FCC now.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
The people&#39;s complaining about the Ukraine election got some results. The American revolutionaries complaining got some results. DICK NIXON resigned.......had everyone been polite about it he would have served his term.
The complaining makes you pro codies uncomfortable as hell and that is results too.
There is still time to debate and comment on this issue. The FCC has not issued a NPRM on this issue yet. Once one is issued, another round of comments will be solicited. This will be the final time for comments. Once the comment and reply comment periods are closed, then the issue will be in the hands of the FCC, not until then.

Ken

[WD8BIL]

YES &#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;
Its about time someone has the guts to modernize&#33;&#33;

And no surprise the doom n&#39; gloomers have spoken &#33;&#33;&#33; http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

The code should be allowed. Should be remembered.
Should not be required &#33;

[KE6IRP]

Quote[/b] (K1MVP @ Feb. 01 2005,21:00)]W5TVW,
#I agree with your comments,--It seems that many
#today think that a ham ticket is a "right" and not
#a "privalege", for some reason.
#CW is "old fashion", and #working for
#something is also "old fashion".
#We live in a new world of "entitlements", and
#"quick results" with little or no effort.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # 73, K1MVP # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Well said--- you know the proof of this is just this; When the no code troops read this kind of thing it angers them---the anger can only come from one place-- they think they just deserve this----maybe we should provide folks with free gear? --all the entitlement crowds respond the same way, whether it&#39;s welfare, a driver&#39;s license, college tuition grants etc.... there has been a slow transformation of society to regard these things as rights------ hard for some to hear but sadly true...