Killing GPS in a crisis!

[KG4JYD]

President Bush has ordered plans for temporarily disabling the U.S. network of global positioning satellites (GPS) during a national crisis to prevent terrorists from using the navigational technology.

The AP/Wired article is here:
http://wired.com/news/print/0,1294,66056,00.html

[KC5SAS]

Old news. From the beginning there were plans to shut down GPS during certain emergencies. I remember a few years back reading accounts of boaters and hikers finding that their civilian GPS receivers were not working when the government temporarily shut the system down. And just this summer people along the eastern seaboard lost GPS reception when the government announced that it was testing a new GPS jamming system. Luckily they gave us a little warning before beginning that exercise.

[ai4ep]

guess we will just have to use an old-fashioned PAPER map !

Dern...how 20th centurish !!

Rats...how primal !!

Next thing you know, we will have to stop at gas stations to find out directions from folks that dont know where they are at, either !!

But there is always some one out there that will FREELY tell you " where to go and how to get there " !!


bwahaaahaa !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[K5USS]

Several years ago when GPS handheld units first came out I bought one. #I took it to the deerlease and showed it to my father thinking he would love it. #He kind of blew it off and asked if I remembered how to read a map from when I was in Boy Scouts. #I assured him I did. #He and a few of the "older" guys out there all said that we were getting to dependant on technology, or something like that.

3 weeks later when we all got to the lease he produced a USGS map and a new compass and handed them to me. #I asked him what it was for and he said when the batteries on my new toy ran down I would still be able to navigate and laughed. #Later that night he and a couple of the other OFs on the place decided to stay up late and play poker after I went to bed. #When I got up the next morning ready to go hunting I found a note on my truck that gave me some coordinants and in larger print the following words:

"WE TOOK YOUR GPS AND YOUR RIFLE TO THIS LOCATION. #MAKE SURE THE COFFEE IS READY WHEN YOU GET BACK WITH THEM."

Dad and the rest of the guys drove their point home with that. #Took me a bit over an hour to recall everything on how to use the map and compass, but the coffee was ready when they got up, as I sat there cleaning my rifle...

They made their point!!!

Charlie
K5USS

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] ] I asked him what it was for and he said when the batteries on my new toy ran down I would still be able to navigate and laughed. Later that night he and a couple of the other OFs on the place decided to stay up late and play poker after I went to bed. When I got up the next morning ready to go hunting I found a note on my truck that gave me some coordinants and in larger print the following words:

"WE TOOK YOUR GPS AND YOUR RIFLE TO THIS LOCATION. MAKE SURE THE COFFEE IS READY WHEN YOU GET BACK WITH THEM."

Dad and the rest of the guys drove their point home with that. Took me a bit over an hour to recall everything on how to use the map and compass, but the coffee was ready when they got up, as I sat there cleaning my rifle...

Excellent story. If you would be using an extension of your logic to defend the retention of telegraphy testing, your story above would fall on deaf ears. Nobody uses maps any more! GPS system will never fail! Tests on reading maps does not comport well with the goals of navigating! A test on reading maps is not a filter for those who are poor navigators! I should not be forced to read maps and learn to use a compass to be allowed to be a navigator! LOL.

You get the point.

[W5HTW]

Now if you could connect a GPS to a product-oriented cash register, the gal at McDonald's could not only figure the change, but could find her butt.

If you'll remember, the GPS system, until maybe three or four years or so ago, had a 'built-in error.' That was to prevent an enemy from being able to precisely pinpoint targets. Only the military had the error correction. Then the government decided everyone should have the corrected system. They removed the error generation and now we can ALL find our butts. Precisely.

Including those who hate us.

Ed

[WA2ZDY]

Tis true, mapreading is passe. Get rid of the sextants too. That stuff is like morse. Antiquated and useless. What a waste of time. I just want my GPS and that's all I'll need. See? I really am getting with the new way of thinking.

Now on a serious note, does anyone really think the terrorists will need GPS to find anything? Everything in the US is well documented on maps, and how to get there is well marked. Just ask AAA for a triptik.

That aside, it's good to know the GPS system can be controlled. Sometimes I wonder what is and is not really under control and what is remotely-ignored by outsourcing in India someplace.

[N7NET]

I recall debriefing a bomber crew after the aircraft was struck by lightning, and all the electronics went out. The nevigator shot the stars all the way from Nome to Sacramento. We seldem have to resort to old methods, but when we do it certainly is nice someone remembers.

73, Scott n7net

[al7n]

There is sure some to be said about retaining proficiency in basic navigation and map reading procedures etc. In my flying days, I always carefully plotted out my course over the ground using Sectional and WAC Charts, and figured the time en-route between checkpoints with the winds aloft reports and forecasts...I always made out well, and could get over the route at any altitude that was legal, as long as VFR conditions prevailed, radios or no. Others I knew would just climb high, and navigate from VOR to VOR without doing any of the closer planning they should have been doing, and used GPS etc...but radio trouble, electrical failures or unexpected winds aloft got more than a few of them of them in trouble...some of them didn't make it......

Indeed,, there are "other" ways to do it now, but it is best to have the basics under control if the "other" ways don't perform as expected. The CW mode is another good example of this.

AL7N

[ai4ep]

With any plan, it is wise to have at least one back - up plan.

[al2n]

I enjoy GPS when I am out hiking. I love Geocaching and such, but never will I leave without a map and compass in my pack.

Electronics are great and fun to use, but Murphy's Law always come into play when the chips are down and batteries always seem to die when you need them the most.

Best to have a map as backup and the know how to use it.

[XV2PS]

I remember in 95 when we boarded a Illyushin 76 (big russian cargo plane) heading to Sakhalin Island. Pure cargo, no passenger seat. We were sitting on the goods next to the open doors pilot cabin(s), and had a beautiful view through the nose bottom windows.
8 or 9 crew members.
Slight smell of alcohol in the plane. No real electronic. Even the guy just next to us was opening kind of old fashioned water taps and drawing lines on maps. As far as I could see, the about most modern piece of electronic (if any other onboard...) was a GPS for the navigator, and that was all. I imagine if the system shuts down what will happen.....

In some conflict areas, they can scramble the signals of the satellites over that place. but I guess the US army still has a way to decypher.

[WA2ZDY]

Quote[/b] (al7n @ Dec. 19 2004,17:48)]. . . Others I knew would just climb high, and navigate from VOR to VOR without doing any of the closer planning they should have been doing, and used GPS etc...but radio trouble, electrical failures or unexpected winds aloft got more than a few of them of them in trouble...
Oh come on now. Everyone knows they should have a back up system. But a map? I have my little nav/com HT here and it works just fine. Why I just looked at saw the date on the AA batteries is 2010. So I didn't even have to turn it on, I just KNOW those batteries will work when I need 'em.

Maps and sextants. Geez you OF guys, what a bunch of geezers. Next thing you'll say is I should know morris codes to know what VOR I'm following.

Pshaw . . .

[W0LPQ]

Chris, thanks for the chuckle..!

Aviation has been arguing this subject for quite some time. More and more aircraft (Corporate, Airline & Private) are adding GPS to the Navigation systems. Flight Management Systems (FMS's) take inputs from GPS, VOR/LOC, DME and blend them together. Each manufacturer does the logic a little differently, but the end result is the navigation display on either a mechanical or electronic display in the cockpit.

We in aviation have argued for quite some time that GPS should not be the SOLE means for navigation. That does not mean that the FAA has listened to us. They have, in a small way.

To make GPS the SOLE means for any navigation computation is inviting disaster, much as using ADF to navigate alongside a mountain range. While VOR/DME can give bearing and distance, GPS also adds altitude and some people are adding this altitude to another part of the navigation formula to aid the Air Data System to maintain correct altitude for the aircraft autopilot system.

Again, making GPS the SOLE means for enroute navigation including vertical flight path is not a sound way of doing things. Accurate yes, but .... when the system goes down or is rendered "less accurate" presents problems. When aircraft begin to fly at altitudes of 1000 feet separation, many things that are not part of the navigation, such as collision avoidance are compromised.

GPS is nice. GPS is accurate (can be more or LESS so). GPS is not really all that expensive, except for airplanes and then it really gets"not cheap" as it needs FAA certification to be used for enroute applications.

Airports already have GPS overlays for landings. The day when the normal VOR/DME approaches are deleted, we are in trouble.

73

Bill, W0LPQ
Collins Avionics Field Service, Retired

[KC0NBW]

anyone remember the northwest plane that landed at the airforce base instead of the regular airport by rapid city ,south dakota a while back? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[k6ncx]

Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ Dec. 19 2004,09:49)]If you'll remember, the GPS system, until maybe three or four years or so ago, had a 'built-in error.' That was to prevent an enemy from being able to precisely pinpoint targets. Only the military had the error correction. Then the government decided everyone should have the corrected system. They removed the error generation and now we can ALL find our butts.
Well, kida, sorta. "Selective availability," the intentionally-induced error or fuzzing, could be turned off or on at a moment's notice, and still can be.

The one time it was turned off before being (permanently?) turned off just a few years ago was during the first Gulf War. It seems the U.S. military didn't have enough military-grade GPS receivers in stock so they resorted to uying off-the-shelf civilian ones. To make them accurate enough, they needed SA off, at exactly the time when they would have expected to put it back on if it were already off (which it should have been.)

The DoD missed at least two legal deadlines for setting a date to turn SA off. Apparently laws don't matter for them. [shrug]

[KD7WHQ]

Eagle Scout, 1975. I can read a map, and follow a compass heading, and get wherever. No problem.
If I know where I am, I don't even need the map, but the compass would still be handy.
GPS is slick though. I'll get a unit soon, but no rush.
It'd be more for APRS than anything else though at this point..

[WA2ZDY]

Glad to help out Bill. I have to confess though, I do NOT know how to use a sextant. Hey, I had a telegraph operators' license; I never claimed to be a navigator! I CAN find my way out of a wet paper bag though.

But yes, GPS is becoming the be all and end all out there. And of course, technology is wonderful, but knowing where you are, where you're going, and how to get back are better than knowing the expiration dates on the batteries in the GPS.

(I was worried someone might just be taking my two previous posts seriously . . . I was waiting for the hate mail and nastygrams in the box!)

[N0ZB]

Quote[/b] (KG4JYD @ Dec. 15 2004,21:03)]President Bush has ordered plans for temporarily disabling the U.S. network of global positioning satellites (GPS) during a national crisis to prevent terrorists from using the navigational technology.
The plans to be able to shut down GPS predate GPS. #Before that it was LORAN. #And VORs, TACANs and NDBs. If you go back far enough, there were plans to put out the smudge pot arrows old mail pilots used for navigation.

Even worse than planning, the FAA used to have regular exercises to simulate shutting down aeronautical navigation aids. The centralized ability to shut down NAVAIDS abrogated the need for little ol' me out in the boontoolies sending rotary dial codes to shut down a VORTAC, so the exercises over the years became less and less frequent.

Of course I do see the potential for abuse here. #The evil government could use National Security as an pretense for curtailing my geocaching.

IM TAKIN MY BALL BACK AND GOING HOME,SO THERE,KIDS!!!!

[N8CPA]

I use GPS navigation on long road trips. #But if it fails, I can always count on the backup system--PMS Nagivation: #

"YOU SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THAT EXIT!" #

"YOU'RE IN THE WRONG LANE!"

"YOU SHOULD HAVE TURNED LEFT!"

"ETC!"

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

You wouldn't believe how effective a mapping GPS, or even a properly used compass can be for preventing such epsisodes.

[K3UD]

I never had a GPS unit.

When I was flying I relied on the Sectional chart, the VOR, ADF, the gyro and the standard compass (compensated....of course)

I taught Orienteering to Boy Scouts for a number of years in it was always gratifying when they began to understand the mystery of the map and compass, and were able to confidently complete 1 mile compass confidence course.

I do wish I had learned celestial navigation though.

73
George
K3UD

[KC0NBW]

i have been thinking about the subject of this thread.

bush has a plan ?

every president since the system was started had the same #plan!

it probably does not even take a presidential order to shut the system down, possibly just the agreement of the joint chiefs of staff.

the original concept of the gps system was for our military as the sole user, then it was altered to include
airlines and seagoing vessels.

the ability to shut it off on a moments notice was designed into the system from the very start.


the fact that we were allowed to know of its very existance is amazing , let alone that we are actually allowed to use it .

we should consider ourselves lucky that the system exists and that our country was the driving force behind it.

[WS2L]

CPA,

Sounds like we both have the same "Backup" GPS units, mine came "as is" with NO warranty, no option to return, all sales final. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

How about you ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[KC0NBW]

Quote[/b] (WS2L @ Dec. 20 2004,08:02)]CPA,

Sounds like we both have the same "Backup" GPS units, mine came "as is" with NO warranty, no option to return, all sales final. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

How about you ? # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
very hard to get replacement parts for,and impossible to return to the factory for repair too! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[KB1GYQ]

Quote[/b] (KC0NBW @ Dec. 20 2004,11:07)]Quote[/b] (WS2L @ Dec. 20 2004,08:02)]CPA,

Sounds like we both have the same "Backup" GPS units, mine came "as is" with NO warranty, no option to return, all sales final.

How about you ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
very hard to get replacement parts for,and impossible to return to the factory for repair too! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
I've heard some do have a trade-in policy though... two 20's for a 40 or something like that.

[W0LPQ]

Back when there were only 4 sat's in the air, our company Sabre 50 flew from Cedar Rapids to the Paris Air Show using GPS only for enroute Navigation. #This was when the GPS receivers were rack mounted and large. #The aircraft could only fly for so many hours a day, as the sat's were not in view for 24 hours per day.

The USAF was very much aware of our "demo" flights and was keenly interested. Upon landing, the Sabre taxied to the location per the GPS printouts and ... was less than 3 meters from the assigned parking spot. #Several pix were taken and as a net result, Rockwell International got the contract for military GPS receivers and today, these things are basically "on a chip". #Not only Collins makes them, but many others do also. #About the only thing you can "repair" is the interface circuitry.

When technology takes us from rack receivers to a chip, progress has truly been made. #Look at the size of computers, TV's and such when you look at even 5 years ago....let alone 10 or 15 years.

CPA: I got a huge chuckle about your PMS Navigation systems. I had not heard that comment for over 15 years. Several programmers in Cedar Rapids were female (darn sharp I might add) and one of them used to use that phrase ... quite seriously.... Needless to say, she did liven up the engineering department.

73

Bill, W0LPQ
Collins Avionics Field Service, Retired

[KC0NBW]

Quote[/b] (W0LPQ @ Dec. 20 2004,08:47)]When technology takes us from rack receivers to a chip, progress has truly been made. #Look at the size of computers, TV's and such when you look at even 5 years ago....let alone 10 or 15 years.

73

Bill, W0LPQ
Collins Avionics Field Service, Retired
tvs have not really gotten any smaller over the years!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[W0LPQ]

NBW: I beg to differ. Setting on my window ledge is a TV that has a 5" display, AM/FM radio and is less than 6" tall, 7" side and 8" deep. That was not heard of 10 or 15 years ago. Console TV's are long gone. For the same size of a console TV (that had ... maybe a 21" screen) you can pack digital audio, TV and more.

We used a Sony 13" Trinitron in Cedar Rapids in Engineering for its display capabilities. Now, to get that capability you use a whole lot less space. Cockpit displays are now LCD and take up less depth and consume less power than CRT displays and are much more reliable.

Hand held TV's were not heard of 15 years ago. Look at the latest Radio Shack flyer.....or any other electronics store..they are all over.

There is a joke going around the internet circle that notes some of the changes that have been made, that our kids cannot relate to, as they have never seen a dial telephone, crank phone...things change....usually for the better (still miss the operator on the line tho).

TV's have changed....quite a bit.

73

Bill, W0LPQ

[KC0NBW]

i didn't say they hadn't changed over the years!
i said they really have not gotten any smaller !
as far as your 5 inch tv goes, the first tv i ever saw had less than a 5 inch screen! #of course the case was a bit larger and heavier than the one you have!

i admit the concept of the "shirt pocket" tv is amazing, i even know a couple of people that have bought them, used them for a few weeks and then thrown them in a drawer because "you really can't see much action on that teeny weeny screen!"

if anything, tvs have gotten much larger over the years!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[W0LPQ]

I remember the Muntz 27" Console TV from the 50's..!

Displays in some ways have gotten larger, due to HDTV and the like.

When you look at the Sony Trinitron from the 70's and compare the quality to today...the picture from the 70's on the Trinitron was amazing. We had a project in Cedar Rapids in the 70's using Cable TV for an FDM Telephone project. We used to use the Sony to adjust the CATV Head End stuff...the local (Iowa City) PBS Station used to sign on during weekends using the Cosecant Squared test pattern. The black line in the center looked like a thick magic marker on a normal TV, but the Sony looked like a microscopic scribe had put a line on the screen.....amazing..!

If it were not for the displays, TV sizes would be palm size. Audio systems really are not required to be part of the system anymore, since digital audio stuff is prevalent these days.

Shirt pocket TV's are almost a necessity for those who hunt or fish and have to watch the current ball games. As for me, no thanks..! Yes, trash can thoughts come to mind.

We had a GE B&W "portable" in the late 50's that had a 13" screen. The term portable was really a misnomer. Heavy little bugger..!

However, the thoughts of "higher authority" making the GPS system less accurate, when the same "higher authority" demands higher accuracy for aircraft flight plans, really turns me off...!

73

Bill, W0LPQ

[N8CPA]

Quote[/b] (WS2L @ Dec. 20 2004,11:02)]CPA,

Sounds like we both have the same "Backup" GPS units, mine came "as is" with NO warranty, no option to return, all sales final. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

How about you ? # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Yes it sounds like my warrantee. My system is highly subject to occasional spontaneous instability. There's also a problem with synchronization--She always asks for input when the score is tied, my alma mater is 3rd and goal on the 1 with 10 seconds left in the game. In addition, the system is subject to incessant noise, and attempts to intervene by instructing me what to do next, when I'm half finished with that particualr process.

Never the less, if the system license expired, I'd still renew it. 15 years as of Thanksgiving weekend, she still wants to keep me around. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[WA2ZDY]

The overall size of a TV set is limited by the display size. Yes, they are even flat, but you still can't get a 19 inch picture out of something less than 19 inches (excluding projections, and in that case, you need a wall big enough, so size becomes an issue again.)

But today's TVs, regardless of size, are on a small PCB about nine inches square (again, there is miniaturisation for specific uses . . .) I worked on TVs where the cabinet was FILLED with circuitry. At one time, the colour TV was considered the most complex piece of electronics around.

Yes, the circuitry sure has changed and gotten a whole bunch smaller.

Just like everything else. If I still had my first 2m rig . . . one channel, 50w, in a 6ft rack.

[KC0NBW]

how about the setchell-carlson "unitized" tvs of the 50s and 60s?

i used to gather all the old power supplies i could and rebuild them with solid state diodes and new caps !

i built all kinds of projects with them !


also, there was #earl "madman" muntz with his 4 tube tv sets ! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif # anyone remember them? #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (WA2ZDY @ Dec. 20 2004,15:19)]Just like everything else. If I still had my first 2m rig . . . one channel, 50w, in a 6ft rack.
Yeah, I had one, too. Probably the same thing. BC639 and BC640 transmitter? AM, 50 watts, used in ground to air comm. Very impressive rig but somewhat larger than my Icom 706!

Ed

[WA2ZDY]

No Ed, mine was FM - a GE PreProg base. The receiver was a 4ER21A1 and the transmitter a 4ET1E1. The transmitter used an 829 in the final for an alleged 50 watts out, but I'm sure mine was probably more in the range of about 10w out.

Both the transmitter and the receiver were open chassis hanging upright on the rack. No shielding or covers front or back! And this was in my bedroom and I never turned them off. I had a cable run over to my operating position and a control head with the telephone style handset.

Mine had come from a local police department via an old buddy of my brother. He had had it for some years, then my brother used it and finally I got it. I finally took the decks out of my mother's apartment maybe ten years ago and dropped them in the dumpster.

I don't remember what I did with the rack frame. I wish I still had it now.

[K9STH]

When I was out at one of the TXU power plants checking on the communications equipment I took a "look" in the building that housed the lowband (37 MHz) FM equipment. It seems that every base station that had been used at the power plant was still in place. They had just sat the "new" one next to the "older" one and moved the antenna feedline to the next one. There were no less than 6 base stations. The "original" station had been put in place in 1946 and I was out there in 1998.

The original station was a single channel, 30 watt output, "wide band" (actually wider than +/- 15 KHz deviation which came about in 1949) with a single 807 tube in the final. What really "got my attention" was that this was in a cabinet that was 5 feet wide, 4 feet deep, and over 7 feet tall. Not all of the space was taken, but there were all sorts of chassis including an interface for telephone line control. Of course everything was tubes (mostly octal and loctal) with several relays for controlling various functions.

I looked up the original license application for this station from 1946. At that time you had to put in a complete technical description of the equipment including a schematic (even though the station was commercially built by General Electric). The person who had signed the application left the employ of the power company in the early 1950s and later became one of the engineers at the Dallas, Texas, FCC office. In fact, I took an amateur exam from him in 1968 and then got to know him even better when I had him demonstrate an actual spark transmitter at an antique radio convention in the early 1970s. He became a "silent key" several years ago.

Glen, K9STH

[N0ZB]

Quote[/b] (KG4JYD @ Dec. 15 2004,21:03)]President Bush has ordered plans for temporarily disabling the U.S. network of global positioning satellites (GPS) during a national crisis to prevent terrorists from using the navigational technology.

The AP/Wired article is here:
http://wired.com/news/print/0,1294,66056,00.html
Here's the FAA SCATANA and ESCAT info:

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/MIL/Apdices/milapd17.html

And US space-based positioning, navigation and timing policy:

http://www.ostp.gov/html....ING.pdf (http://www.ostp.gov/html/FactSheetSPACE-BASEDPOSITIONINGNAVIGATIONTIMING.pdf)

Bush didn't order any new plans, he merely updated a 1996 policy already in place.

N0ZB

[KC0NBW]

if more people would give serious thought to the subject,the concept of becoming too dependent on
"modern" technology without preserving the old technology would scare the socks off of them!

out of every 1000 people, how many could start a fire
without a match,lighter etc.,without help?

i have an "old fashioned" flint and steel in my go bag, as well as one of the newer "fire sticks", a magnesium bar with a flint along one side.

while the majority is waiting for lightning to strike, i will be sitting alongside a nice warm fire, eating a roast pheasant!

one that i shot with my flintlock!


don't throw out the maps and compasses yet!

[al7n]

I keep my flintlock(s) and (full) powder horns & flasks stashed away as well...plus a good supply of lead for rifle balls, among other "necessary" items.
They can call in the rest of the arms, but they'll not find mine. A good flintlock makes for a good flint & steel
fire starter too...truly a "multi-purpose" item.

If some "incident" such as EMP or such comes along,
and zaps all the hi-tech electronic gizmos, there will be some of us that can get along without them. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[W5HTW]

ZDY, ah, so. I had some GE pre-Prog stuff but don't recall the nomenclature. Had a LOT of it, in fact, perhaps two dozen radios that were working, and lots of parts units. I think I eventually scrapped it all, but really don't remember. I'm really bad about remembering model numbers! I recall having an SCR522 on the air for a while, and an ARC-3, both on 2 meters. But the biggest VHF rig was the BC639/BC640 and power supply. Very nice radio, actually, and I do not recall who made it, but it sure looked neat in the rack. The 639 was a truly good tuneable receiver. Of course, that was all AM.

A friend in aeronautical radio got it for me, and two of them for himself. They were used with the FAA, I guess, or maybe back when it was the CAA. I had mine in 1963, and again, I don't recall what I did with it. Probably traded it for something, like a gun or a car or a motorbike!

Enjoy

Season's Greetings, all

Ed

[KC0NBW]

Quote[/b] (al7n @ Dec. 22 2004,17:11)]I keep my flintlock(s) and (full) powder horns & flasks stashed away as well...plus a good supply of lead for rifle balls, among other "necessary" items.
They can call in the rest of the arms, but they'll not find mine. #A good flintlock makes for a good flint & steel
fire starter too...truly a "multi-purpose" item.

If some "incident" #such as EMP or such comes along,
and zaps all the hi-tech electronic gizmos, there will be some of us that can get along without them. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
i also have a #.54 hawken percussion,and several percussion handguns, including a walker replica.

i have several pounds of powder on hand #and know how to make more if necessary! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
i also have quite a stash of wheel weights and lead,plus molds for the charcoal burners and some other calibers.

an interesting story about the availability of ammunition.

this really happened during ww2 when civilian ammo was out of production.

my grandfather's car gave up the ghost and he traded a box and a half or so of .33 winchester to a neighbor for a
car!

the guy had 2 cars, but just a few rounds left for his rifle.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[al7n]

That is the advantage a good flintlock has over percussion or metallic cartridge guns....
If you can't get caps or primers, you can't do much shooting....but as long as you have useable powder and ball, and flint flakes large
enough to fit the jaws of your flintlock, you've got something that will work.
It ain't an automatic weapon and it won't shoot fast, but it can still be an effective weapon and hunting tool. It also can be used to capture other weapons and ammunition if need be.

Dunno what all this has to do with shutting down GPS satellites, but it is interesting to think about anyway....:)

[KC0NBW]

Quote[/b] (al7n @ Dec. 22 2004,19:30)]That is the advantage a good flintlock has over percussion or metallic cartridge guns....
If you can't get caps or primers, you can't do much shooting....but as long as you have useable powder and ball, and flint flakes large
enough to fit the jaws of your flintlock, you've got something that will work.:)
if you look at a map of minnesota, you will find a road up in the arrowhead called the gunflint trail !

i also have a good supply of percussion caps on hand.

back in 1962, my dad got my great great grandfathers civil war musket and his double barrel percussion shotgun from another relative.
the powder was still good and the percussion caps were good too !

g.g.g. died in 1866 and this stuff had just been sitting since that time!

i reload for all my others too, and i have a fair stock of supplies on hand.

plus whenever i find some ammo at a garage sale or something,i buy it even if it's not for anything i have.

it could become valuable barter material in the future http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[KC0NBW]

Quote[/b] (al7n @ Dec. 22 2004,19:30)]That is the advantage a good flintlock has over percussion or metallic cartridge guns....
If you can't get caps or primers, you can't do much shooting....but as long as you have useable powder and ball, and flint flakes large
enough to fit the jaws of your flintlock, you've got something that will work.
It ain't an automatic weapon and it won't shoot fast, but it can still be an effective weapon and hunting tool. #It also can be used to capture other weapons and ammunition if need be.

Dunno what all this has to do with shutting down GPS satellites, but it is interesting to think about anyway....:)
i just made a comment about the dangers of becoming too dependent on the latest technology and used the
punkin rollers as an example of "ancient" tech that is still good today! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[KB2SFH]

Quote[/b] (KG4JYD @ Dec. 15 2004,23:03)]President Bush has ordered plans for temporarily disabling the U.S. network of global positioning satellites (GPS) during a national crisis to prevent terrorists from using the navigational technology.

The AP/Wired article is here:
http://wired.com/news/print/0,1294,66056,00.html
What does he think that will accomplish? the terrorists are using the system when it isn't disabled. what a stupid president.

[KC0NBW]

Quote[/b] (KB2SFH @ Dec. 23 2004,05:37)]Quote[/b] (KG4JYD @ Dec. 15 2004,23:03)]President Bush has ordered plans for temporarily disabling the U.S. network of global positioning satellites (GPS) during a national crisis to prevent terrorists from using the navigational technology.

The AP/Wired article is here:
http://wired.com/news/print/0,1294,66056,00.html
What does he think that will accomplish? the terrorists are using the system when it isn't disabled. what a stupid president.
slick willy was the pres back in 96,when it was updated the last time.
was he stupid too?


another point,do you figure the terrorists used gps to find the world trade center, or did they use a map from texaco and a lucky guess?