McCain Has 'No Confidence' in Rumsfeld

[W8EFA]

ABC News Report (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=327103)

Rumsfeld should have been fired months ago. #What kind of President would re-hire this failure when he had a chance to get rid of him.

Rumsfeld was told by Generals more troops were needed, #but arrogant Rumsfeld with no experience in military matters over rode their decision. #Now we know he was wrong and he should be fired!

[wd0ct]

Only the head fool of this ship of fools would rehire Rummy.

[KC2KFC]

From the ABC News Report

Quote[/b] ]He estimated an additional 80,000 Army personnel and 20,000 to 30,000 more Marines would be needed to secure Iraq. I'm curious how he arrived at these numbers.

Quote[/b] ]"I have strenuously argued for larger troop numbers in Iraq, including the right kind of troops linguists, special forces, civil affairs, etc.," said McCain, R-Ariz. "There are very strong differences of opinion between myself and Secretary Rumsfeld on that issue." Arabic, Persian and Farsi linguists are in very short supply. Where will they come from? It takes 2-3 years to train a special forces soldier. There is only one active duty Civil Affairs battalion all the rest are in the Army Reserve. Does he want more reservists on active duty?

Quote[/b] ]Rumsfeld has "relied upon the judgment of the military commanders to determine what force levels are appropriate for the situation at hand," Di Rita said. The army works on a pull system for resources. My questions are: Have the commanders on the ground requested more troops? Has Rumsfeld denied these requests?

[W8EFA]

Yes, Rumsfeld strategy from the beginning was not to listen to Powells plan of overwhelming force. The following taken from an article back in March.

One article in March 2003 (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/5472430.htm?1c)



Quote[/b] ]"This is the ground war that was not going to happen in (Rumsfeld's) plan," said a Pentagon official. Because the Pentagon didn't commit overwhelming force, "now we have three divisions strung out over 300-plus miles and the follow-on division, our reserve, is probably three weeks away from landing."

Quote[/b] ]Knowledgeable defense and administration officials say Rumsfeld and his civilian aides at first wanted to commit no more than 60,000 American troops to the war on the assumption that the Iraqis would capitulate in two days.

Intelligence officials say Rumsfeld, his deputy Paul Wolfowitz and other Pentagon civilians ignored much of the advice of the Central Intelligence Agency and the Defense Intelligence Agency in favor of reports from the Iraqi opposition and from Israeli sources that predicted an immediate uprising against Saddam once the Americans attacked.

The officials said Rumsfeld also made his disdain for the Army's heavy divisions very clear when he argued about the war plan with Army Gen. Tommy Franks, the allied commander. Franks wanted more and more heavily armed forces, said one senior administration official; Rumsfeld kept pressing for smaller, lighter and more agile ones, with much bigger roles for air power and special forces.

"Our force package is very light," said a retired senior general. "If things don't happen exactly as you assumed, you get into a tangle, a mismatch of your strategy and your force. Things like the pockets (of Iraqi resistance) in Basra, Umm Qasr and Nasariyah need to be dealt with forcefully, but we don't have the forces to do it."

"The Secretary of Defense cut off the flow of Army units, saying this thing would be over in two days," said a retired senior general who has followed the evolution of the war plan. "He shut down movement of the 1st Cavalry Division and the1st Armored Division. Now we don't even have a nominal ground force."

He added ruefully: "As in Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan, we are using concepts and methods that are entirely unproved. If your strategy and assumptions are flawed, there is nothing in the well to draw from."

In addition, said senior administration officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, Rumsfeld and his civilian aides rewrote parts of the military services' plans for shipping U.S. forces to the Persian Gulf, which they said resulted in a number of mistakes and delays, and also changed plans for calling up some reserve and National Guard units.

"There was nothing too small for them to meddle with," said one senior official. "It's caused no end of problems, but I think we've managed to overcome them all."

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Dec. 14 2004,07:50)]Yes, Rumsfeld strategy from the beginning was not to listen to Powells plan of overwhelming force.
Nice answer, Bill. Unfortunately, that's not what KFC asked. I'll quote KFC's question here again for ease of reference for the fact-challenged:

Quote[/b] (KC2KFC @ Dec. 14 2004,07:20)]My questions are: Have the commanders on the ground requested more troops? Has Rumsfeld denied these requests?

Note, KFC asks, "Have the commanders on the ground requested more troops?" Not, "Has Secretary Powell requested more troops?"

Perhaps you should attempt to answer KFC's question instead of trying to sidetrack the issue.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[KC2KFC]

I remember these types of articles when the war started last year. I'm not sure what the staffs who did the planning analysis used for force ratios. My question is have the generals on the ground today requested more troops? Have these troop requests been approved or denied?

If I recall correctly by the end of the first week we had not reached Baghdad and everybody said we were in a quagmire. A couple of weeks later we were in Baghdad.

Conventional wisdom says we went in there light on ground forces. I would agree, but it was also pretty amazing how fast they moved through Iraq. Tommy Franks had a pretty impressive plan that worked well with the resources and the constraints he had.

Also at the time, Turkey denied us the right of way to attack from the north with the 1st Armored Div (I think it was the 1st Armored, I'd have to go back and check). That alone changed the plan dramatically. There was a window of opportunity for the attack and Franks took that window of opportunity with the resources he had available. His concern was waiting another month (for a new moon and limited night vision ability for the enemy) would bring the fighting into the hotter summer months. At the time the intelligence people were saying the use of chemical munitions was probable so there was concern for troops in a sustained MOPP level 4 in the desert heat.

I agree you need more troops when making an attack against a prepared defense. The force ratio for an attack against a prepared defense is supposed to be 3:1, if I remember correctly, in your favor. I don't think we had that back in march. The question now is, because we can't go back and refight the war, what is the force ratio needed sustain a security mission?

[K0RGR]

I did not realize until last night that our government dropped the investigation of overcharging by Halliburton because it was the "Iraqui Provisional Authority" and not the U.S. government that was getting gouged! The fact that it was still the U.S. taxpayer that got scrod apparently doesn't count.

I believe that many persons high in this administration have strong convictions, and that they should have many more convictions soon.

Perhaps Mr. McCain thinks that Mr. Rumsfeld is starting to sound more and more like Mr. McNamara - remember him?

[W8EFA]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Dec. 14 2004,08:01)]Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Dec. 14 2004,07:50)]Yes, Rumsfeld strategy from the beginning was not to listen to Powells plan of overwhelming force.
Nice answer, Bill. Unfortunately, that's not what KFC asked. I'll quote KFC's question here again for ease of reference for the fact-challenged:

Quote[/b] (KC2KFC @ Dec. 14 2004,07:20)]My questions are: Have the commanders on the ground requested more troops? Has Rumsfeld denied these requests?

Note, KFC asks, "Have the commanders on the ground requested more troops?" Not, "Has Secretary Powell requested more troops?"

Perhaps you should attempt to answer KFC's question instead of trying to sidetrack the issue.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif
Do you have a comprehension problem? It is common knowledge that Generals retired and were fired because they wanted to go in with an overwhelming force. Rumsfeld wanted to rush to Baghdad with a small light force, didn't plan for the insurgents, and didn't occupy the weapons caches in the rear we had taken because he didn't have enough forces.
Quote[/b] ]
The officials said Rumsfeld also made his disdain for the Army's heavy divisions very clear when he argued about the war plan with Army Gen. Tommy Franks, the allied commander. Franks wanted more and more heavily armed forces, said one senior administration official; Rumsfeld kept pressing for smaller, lighter and more agile ones, with much bigger roles for air power and special forces.

"Our force package is very light," said a retired senior general. "If things don't happen exactly as you assumed, you get into a tangle, a mismatch of your strategy and your force. Things like the pockets (of Iraqi resistance) in Basra, Umm Qasr and Nasariyah need to be dealt with forcefully, but we don't have the forces to do it."

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Dec. 14 2004,09:32)]:unclesam:
Do you have a comprehension problem? It is common knowledge that Generals retired and were fired because they wanted to go in with an overwhelming force. Rumsfeld wanted to rush to Baghdad with a small light force, didn't plan for the insurgents, and didn't occupy the weapons caches in the rear we had taken because he didn't have enough forces.

Were YOU aware of the insurgent problem before the war started? If so, you were remiss in not calling Mr. Rumsfield and warning him. Perhaps you could have made a major difference.

Ed

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ Dec. 14 2004,09:39)]Were YOU aware of the insurgent problem before the war started? #If so, you were remiss in not calling Mr. Rumsfield and warning him. #Perhaps you could have made a major difference. #

Ed
Of course he knew, Ed, all liberals are psychic and can foresee exactly what will happen days, weeks, months, even years into the future.

He didn't call because he thought it would make it easier tor Kerry to win the election if the military was taking huge hits. Politics trumps patriotism for liberals, and winning at the cost of more American soldiers is acceptable to them.

[wu3u]

Were YOU aware of the insurgent problem before the war started? If so, you were remiss in not calling Mr. Rumsfield and warning him.

W5HTW

OM,

There were millions of people "aware" of the "insurgent problem," at least those using common sense and a little history who were not blinded by the Administration's rosey scenario predictions and empty flag waving designed to "get the masses with the program."

Those of us who opposed this war warned that this would happen. We made our objections known to the Administration in the press, on TV, in writing, on these boards, and in other forums only to be shouted down by the chest pounding "Super Patriots" who argued
"full steam ahead!" so WE were certainly not "remiss."

You sound almost surprised that an insurgency has developed in Iraq.

Frankly, it should come as no surprise: People generally don't like foreigners taking over their country no matter the rationale and it is a very human response to fight until the last man is standing to evict those foreign invaders.

Expect that this war will last for years - again just as those of us who argued against it said it would.

And it will come as no surpise that there is no chance at all of peace in Iraq until our government gets American forces the hell out of Iraq and leaves those people alone.

Go back and read that again: Leave them alone; get the hell out.

TP

[W3MIV]

Another thread devoted to the whining of the same losers, who now pretend to some military expertise as the bludgeon of their forelorn hopes.

Guess what, losers: after this four year administration, your aspirations will again be dashed against the shoals of solid values and decency unless the Democrites undergo a sea change and dump your philosophies in the dustbin of failed causes.

Bootlicking for the likes of Hillary and Howard will avail you naught. Prepare yourselves for decades of Republican domination.

Of course, you always have Ralph and his push cart.

[N7AAO]

I have pretty much come to the conclusion that McCain makes outrageous statements, which he may or may not truly believe, just to get "face time" with the cameras.

As such, I tend to discount most of what he says.

If he enters the GOP primaries in 2008, I expect him to do about as well as Joe Lieberman did trying to win the Democratic nomination in 2004.

[wu3u]

Of course he knew, Ed, all liberals are psychic and can foresee exactly what will happen days, weeks, months, even years into the future.

He didn't call because he thought it would make it easier tor Kerry to win the election if the military was taking huge hits. Politics trumps patriotism for liberals, and winning at the cost of more American soldiers is acceptable to them.

N7AAO

Good God..such blather.

Common sense alone would have been sufficient to at least get a handle on what was likely to develop in the wake of an American invasion of Iraq, but common sense is not something Bush supporters are long on, quite unfortunately.

Their leader says JUMP and they say "How high?" like good lemmings should.

But MANY people DID warn at the outset that the war was a bad idea from the start and many are not "liberals," you know, that catch all phrase meaning "anyone who doesn't march in lock step with GWB" which is designed to deflect legitimate criticism amid an ad hominem attack.

Had our protestations received the respect that any opposition should in a free and democratic society, then perhaps things would have been different - but you folks wanted this war ever so badly - never mind the justifications, we just wanted a good old fashioned war to satisfy our quest for revenge, doesn't matter if the people we attack are legitimate targets of that revenge, just give us a war George - pretty please!

You were infused with a bloodlust, you had blood in your nostrils, and by God, you were gonna have your war come hell or high water - light troops, heavy troops, justified, unjustified - whatever - you were just aching and pining away for a war, any war would do.

But nothing good will come from something build on falsehood - nothing - you can fight this thing forever - and you will - and at the end of the day it was a bad idea.

Libertarians, traditional conservatives (yep, GWB is NOT a conservative), and just plain folk warned over and over again, wrote their congressmen, wrote letters to the editor and again only to be shouted down as unpatriotic and all the rest of that extreme right wing BS.

Remember those halcyon days AAO? When the war was going to be short? When Iraqi oil would pay for it? When surely there were stockpiles of weapons the tips of which were surely aimed at Chicago, New York, and LA?

When flying drones were gonna attack the US mainland? When the Iraqi people would sing and dance in the streets when a foreign invader "liberated" their country?

It was all gonna be just peachy because George says so.

Well AAO, the damn thing has happened just as the war's detractors said it would: Our troops fighting on one side of civil war with no end in sight, Iraq awash in violence, Middle East unstable, billions spent, American blood shed, thousands of Iraqi women and children dead, the world hates our guts.

Oh, and in world opinion, the single biggest threat to world peace is the United States.

Lovely, ain't it?

Had you guys listened to us for a minute instead of pounding your chests and marching about the room waving an American flag in an Uncle Sam suit....if you had sobered up a bit, then maybe our leaders would have taken a different course.

So here it is. We own the damn thing, the whole stinking carcass but you cannot say that some did not warn you because we did.

Don't cry in your beer to me about insurgents, violence, dead American soldiers, political problems, and all the rest of it for this is what you ordered up and this is what you got.

Dig in and chow down.

TP

[K8YS]

does not surprise me, McCain is NOT a republican, he might as well be a spokesman for the democrats.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (N8LXR @ Dec. 14 2004,12:22)]Well AAO, the damn thing has happened just as the war's detractors said it would: #Our troops fighting on one side of civil war with no end in sight, Iraq awash in violence, Middle East unstable, billions spent, American blood shed, thousands of Iraqi women and children dead, the world hates our guts.
First of all, you need to learn how to properly use the "quote" feature. Down at the bottom of the "Open Forums" area is a "Test Area." I suggest you go down there and play with it a bit... I am sure you will get the hang of it.

Now, as for "Iraq awash in violence," and "no end in sight," well, you are sadly misinformed. Tikrit, good old Saddam's hometown, is quiet. So is Fallujah. Baghdad has seen a few attacks, it is true, but that's primarily because that's where the TV cameras are! The terrorists want to convince noodle-brained couch generals in the USA that we are "losing" this war so they make sure their attacks are going to be covered by CNN.

You might want to read Arthur Chrenkoff's latest compilation (http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005986) of good news from Iraq... if you're not afraid to see the good we are doing, that is. Fair warning, I am going to excerpt some now, so if you don't want to see how well things are going, stop reading <span style='color:red'>now.</span>

From the &quot;Society&quot; section:

Quote[/b] ]After initially canvassing various other dates, Farid Ayar, spokesman of the Independent Electoral Commission of Iraq, announced that the election will take place Jan. 30. Says Abdel Hussein al-Hindawi, the head of the Electoral Commission: &quot;These are the first free, multi-party elections since 1954 and I can tell you that according to our 6,000 electoral agents throughout the country, there is a real fervour [to vote] even in the Sunni regions.&quot; The numbers involved in the exercise are considerable:

Quote[/b] ]Nearly 14 million voters are eligible to go to the polls, according to the number of ration cards issued to adults by Iraq's commerce ministry under the UN programme &quot;oil for food&quot; in the days of Saddam. But there are newcomers who have returned home after Saddam's fall in April 2003. They will be able to register to vote by showing two identity documents proving their Iraqi nationality. In addition, some three million Iraqis living overseas, many of whom fled the regime, will also be able to vote from January 28 to 30 in 14 countries. These are Australia, Britain, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Iran, Jordan, the Netherlands, Sweden, Syria, Turkey, United Arab Emirates and the United States.

Iraq is spending 250 million dollars for this landmark election. Voting papers are being printed in Switzerland to avoid counterfeiting, and a company will distribute them to the 9,000 polling stations which will be equipped with 40,000 ballot boxes. Each voting list will have a number and a logo.

[...]

In an effort to boost the election's chance of success in the Sunni areas of Iraq, the authorities have extended the deadline for the registration of political parties for one more week after the registration had finished everywhere else throughout Iraq. As a fallback option, however, &quot;Iraq's interim government is considering leaving some seats on the elected national assembly vacant so troubled districts that may not vote in the January elections could still get an opportunity to participate later.&quot;

[...]

Also a part of Iraq's rich historical mosaic, other faiths continue to survive inside the country, despite the attempts by jihadi zealots to drive them out. In Mosul, the Christian community is rebuilding churches and chapels destroyed in recent terrorist attacks. Some valuable assistance is now coming from Iraqi Christian living overseas. St. Katharine Drexel Catholic Church in Weston, Fla., is collecting money for rebuilding destroyed churches in Baghdad. Muslim organizations, including the local branch of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, have offered their help in raising the awareness of the issue and collecting funds. &quot;This is a shame to hear about it. . . . By Allah, if I don't condemn it, I will carry the sins,&quot; says Sofian Abdelaziz, director of the American Muslim Association of North America.

Now from the &quot;Economy&quot; section:

Quote[/b] ]On the international front, there is more good news for Iraq: &quot;The United States, Germany and other G7 nations agreed . . . to write off up to 80 percent or $33 billion of Iraq's Paris Club debt, which could pave the way for a wider international accord, officials said.&quot; That means, for example, that Australia will forgive Iraq $1.1 billion. The deal might have another good financial spinoff for Iraq: &quot;The accord with the Paris Club, which holds about $42 billion in Iraqi debt, may help pave the way for Iraq to receive about $8 billion in aid from the [International Monetary Fund] and World Bank.&quot; The Kuwaiti government, meanwhile, will be asking the parliament to approve an 80% cut in Iraq's $16 billion debt, a reduction in line with the Paris Club decision. Iraq's debt to Russia will be reduced from around $10.5 billion to between $700 million and $1 billion. And Saudi Arabia has also expressed willingness to make substantial cuts in Iraqi debt.

[...]

In oil news, &quot;Iraq, the fifth-largest oil producer in the Middle East, will spend more than $1 billion next year to increase oil production capacity by about 15 percent to 3.25 million barrels a day, an Iraqi official said. 'The budget is fixed for priority projects to build new export pipelines and complete modifications to our refineries,' Abdulilah al-Amir, a foreign relations adviser to Iraqi Oil Minister Thamir al-Ghadhban, said.&quot;

The authorities plan to build a new refinery in the town of Zakho, in the Kurdish north, close to the Syrian and Turkish borders and along a pipeline route to Turkey. Iraqi officials also are conducting talks with Norway towards building greater cooperation in the oil industry. And the Ministry of Oil has announced that it has shortlisted five foreign companies to study the giant Rumaila oil field in the south and another four to study the oilfields around Kirkuk.

[...]

In communication news, the Internet infrastructure is developing surprisingly well around Iraq, according to an Iraqi blogger: &quot;Internet service had recently reached the small town where I work which is practically in the Iraqi marshes area. The service was limited in the past few months to the governmental facilities like the hospital and the town hall but now it's available for public use in a neat, small internet cafe' from which I'm posting these news.&quot;

Now for &quot;Reconstruction&quot;:

Quote[/b] ]In Amman, Jordan, the Iraq Procurement 2004 forum and exhibition recently opened, &quot;providing the opportunity for Iraqi businessmen to meet with representatives of global companies hoping to play a role in the rebuilding of the war-stricken state. . . . An exhibition hosting over 50 regional and global companies will be held on the sidelines of the forum, providing the companies with the chance to display their products. During the three-day event, certain projects in the fields of IT, healthcare, energy production, telecommunications, banking, agriculture, water and sewage system will be presented to foreign investors.&quot;

[...]

In Balad, Task Force Danger Soldiers of the First Infantry Division and the Al Huda Company are building new roads, including new highway from Balad to Baghdad, as part of a $985,000 Accelerated Iraqi Relief Program project.

The Army Corps of Engineers and the Programs and Contracting Office in Baghdad are also expected to issue contracts soon worth $36 million to Iraqi firms to renovate some 76 train stations throughout the country. Speaking of rail infrastructure, a USAID program is constructing a 45-mile railway line between the southern port of Umm Qasr and Shuaibah junction near Basrah. The project should be completed by January 2005.

[...]

A large part of the effort to rebuild the country's health system consists of improving the skills of Iraqi doctors, who in most cases have been cut off for many years from the latest overseas medical developments. As part of that strategy, &quot;the Japanese government will invite 10 doctors from the southern Iraqi city of Samawah and its vicinity to Japan from . . . for training in infectious disease prevention as part of its reconstruction assistance for Iraq.&quot; Already, &quot;in March and October this year, Japan and Egypt jointly provided medical training for a total of 215 Iraqi doctors at Cairo University.&quot;

Oh, and we can't forget &quot;Coalition Troops&quot;:

Quote[/b] ]There are many ways of making Iraq safer for the future. In one of those valuable initiatives, coalition troops continue clearing unexploded munitions. Near Tikrit, &quot;working closely with the 201st Iraqi National Guard Battalion, more that 30 Bravo Company 'Predator' soldiers worked with more than 40 ING soldiers for two weeks to clean up the area. More than 1,000 rounds of highly explosive artillery ammunition were destroyed during the operation.&quot; Iraqi National Guard soldiers also conducted classes in local schools to teach children about dangers of ammunition.

The troops also continue to support the growth of local democracy. In Balad, the First Infantry Division has renovated former Baath Party headquarters at a cost of $100,000 and transformed the building into the Balad Municipal Building, which now houses both the city and district council, and a media center with a newspaper and a radio station.

The troops are working to restore not just the physical infrastructure, but also the human one. In Tikrit, for example, Bravo Company, 411th Civil Affairs Battalion has cooperated with the provincial governor to establish an &quot;On the Job&quot; training school: &quot;Here, students receive job-specific training in one of several fields including masonry, carpentry, ceramics and casting, electrical and sewing. The courses last 30 days and are taught by members of the trade who are already established in the local community.&quot; The school recently graduated its first class of 110 men and women. Each received a $50 voucher toward starting their own business.

[...]

There's also help for schools. In Tikrit, the 701st Main Support Battalion has sponsored two schools, the Al Barudy Primary School and the Al Barudy School for Girls, the first girls' school in northern Tikrit, among other things providing them with supplies: &quot;The 701st MSB did not complete this project on its own. Key contributions of school supplies came from Germany, where the Wurzburg American Middle School, also sponsored by the 701st, put together packages of school supplies for their Iraqi counterparts.&quot; Says First Lt. Scott Preusker, the battalion civil affairs officer, of her visit to school: &quot;The girls were very interested in speaking to the female officers and had many questions about their leadership roles in the U.S. military.&quot;

In Baghdad, soldiers from A Company, First Battalion, 153rd Infantry Battalion, Third Brigade Combat Team, and Detachment 1, First Battalion, 206th Field Artillery Regiment, attached to Company A, 1-153rd, delivered the stuffed toys and school supplies to children at the Ayn Al Mali Kindergarten in the Babil neighborhood. And in the Al Neida area, &quot;the Al Sa'ad and Hamalathania schools received supplies donated by churches and the families of the 30th Brigade Combat Team. The donations were sent from the United States and included individual supplies for the students, black boards, and class room items that were given to the teachers.&quot;

In addition to work on schools and hospitals, infrastructure projects continue, like this one in the village of Albu Bali, where Marines from the 372nd Engineer Group together with local contractors built a new water treatment plant for 500 residents.

[...]

And in Najaf, &quot;Marines from the 11th MEU distributed more than $1.1 million on 22 November in condolence and collateral damage repair payments to demonstrate goodwill to Iraqis caught in the crossfire during fighting . . . this August. Payments began on Sept. 30 and have resulted in a total of $4.7 million paid to more than 8,300 Najafis since then. Payments will continue as long as needed to meet each valid case. Condolence payments, known as solatia, are being paid to express sympathy to those injured or who lost a family member during the fighting. Collateral damage repair payments are intended for Iraqis who experienced damage to their home, business or other property.&quot;

And from &quot;Diplomacy and Security&quot;:

Quote[/b] ]In further evidence of the fraying of relations between the insurgents and the community, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi lashed out at Islamic scholars in a taped message, accusing them of betrayal:

Quote[/b] ]You have let us down in the darkest circumstances and handed us over to the enemy. . . . You have quit supporting the mujahedeen. . . . Hundreds of thousands of the nation's sons are being slaughtered at the hands of the infidels because of your silence.

You made peace with the tyranny and handed over the countries and the people to the Jews and Crusaders. . . . When you resort to silence on their crimes, when you refused to hold the banners of Jihad and Tawhid, and when you prevented youth from heading to the battlefields in order to defend the religion.

Instead of implementing God's orders, you chose your safety and preferred your money and sons. You left the mujahadeen facing the strongest power in the world. . . . Are not your hearts shaken by the scenes of your brothers being surrounded and hurt by your enemy?

[...]

In a related development, &quot;approximately three months after decisive combat operations ended in Najaf, the 11th MEU commander declared today that Iraqi Security Forces (ISF) have formally assumed local control of An Najaf province.&quot;

Elsewhere throughout the country, the Iraqi security forces are taking on more tasks. Two thousand Iraqi national guardsmen were recently deployed to protect vital oil infrastructure around Kirkuk.

[...]

Says Lt. Gen. Lance Smith, deputy commander of U.S. Central Command: &quot;The Iraqi security forces have fought well. . . . The way they performed in Fallujah clearly shows that there are a core of fighters in the Iraqi security forces that are prepared and capable of operating independently in war-fighting operations that does give us confidence that our efforts to train the Iraqi security force can be successful.&quot;

[...]

Overseas, &quot;Italy has hosted 42 Iraqi army officers for studies at the Centro Alti Studi Difesa military college in Rome. The Iraqi officers consisted of captains and majors who would spend three and a half weeks in school before returning to Iraq during the first week of December.&quot; Norway is sending additional 20 army instructors to Iraq.

In the region, a company from the Iraqi Army's 17th Battalion, Seventh Brigade, Fifth Division, is also training with Egyptian troops at the Mubarak Military City training facility near Alexandria. The training will involve &quot;individual movement technique, squad movement, land navigation, basic rifle marksmanship, rifle qualification, and platoon and company attack and defense training including live fire exercises with their Egyptian counterparts.&quot;

[...]

[AAO note: I gotta emphasize this last part:]

Increasingly, local cooperation is bringing positive results--in Samarra, soldiers from the Task Force 1-26 Infantry were distributing fliers about the danger of explosive devices when 10 minutes into the exercise they were approached by a local boy who pointed them to an improvised explosive device in an nearby alley. &quot;Task Force 1-26 Soldiers investigated and found one 155mm artillery round and one 120mm mortar round, wired as a phase II IED.&quot; Read also this fascinating relation from a raid on two Iraqi villages to check for insurgent activity: &quot;We didn't leave the villages as warriors, but as guests.&quot;

In other recent security successes: the arrest of more than 100 suspected insurgents in Baghdad (&quot;Among the 104 detainees, most were Iraqis but some were from Syria and other Arab countries. . . . Nine of the total had escaped from Fallujah&quot;); a seizure of a senior insurgency commander in the Anbar province; detaining 38 insurgent suspects in a raid near Kirkuk; the arrest of one of Al Zarqawi's top commanders in Mosul; the capture of five foreign fighters who escaped from Fallujah and were preparing attacks around Basra; the arrest of 116 suspects in a sweep southwest of Baghdad; the arrest of 57 suspects throughout Mosul and Ad Dawr, the town where Saddam was captured last year; rounding up 32 suspects and uncovering a stockpile of more than 500 artillery rounds by Iraqi and Coalition troops south of Baghdad; rounding up another 24 suspected insurgents in an operation around Tal Afar; and the arrest of 210 suspects in a week-long sweep through the so-called triangle of death.

So turn off the Clinton News Network and start searching for the real story of what's happening in Iraq.

If you're interested, Mr. Chrenkoff posts his update on good news from Iraq every other Monday on OpinionJournal.com.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[gw4rcm]

David
Is 1000 American Bodybags a success,? and rising.
Estimated 25000 Iraqi civilians Dead?
Every news broadcast, daily proclaiming a new bomb blast, with 20-30 Iraqi national guardsman or Police dead or injured.
You must spend all day trawling the papers for &quot;good news&quot;
I really don't know whether to laugh at you're diatribes, or feel sorry for you.
RCM

[KA9VQF]

Hummm,.... Been a while since I read 1984. What was the main characters job?

[KB8VNP]

EFA

I was just wondering---this is at least the second thread where you claim Secretary Rumsfeld doesn't have experience in military matters. #Where did you get that information? #Did you not know he flew aircraft as a naval aviator? #You could say non-vet in describing Undersecretary Wolfowitz and perhaps the same about David Chu, but yes indeedy, Secretary Rumsfeld has military experience. #Not to mention he was Secretary of Defense under President Ford.

What about yourself? #You are a year younger than myself and I did serve, at a time when the military was hated! #I have a feeling you did no such thing; however, you sure post like you have the military experience of Douglas MacArthur, George Patton, and Dwight Eisenhower all rolled into one. #If you have so much experience, surely you can do a better job at guiding the military than Secretary Rumsfeld has to date. #Maybe you should volunteer, after all, there are dems on President Bush's cabinent. #I am sure he would welcome your vast military prowess! #And if you did serve I am sure you weren't flying aircraft on and off an aircraft carrier!

Also, you should know that even the lowliest of grunts (which I can proudly say I was) that knows anything knows that you have to change tactics and strategies or else you risk the fact that your enemy can predict your movements and inflict horrendus casualties. #The &quot;Thunder Run&quot; to baghdad did what it was supposed to, with a minimum of casualties. #(Perhaps you should read Tommy Franks' autobiography, &quot;American Soldier&quot;. #He devotes a large section to his logic in planning the war.) #Yes, the Secretary probably underestimated the strength of the insurgency but if all of you whiners would let war be waged as it should, then we would have secured the peace long ago.

KC2KFC:

I believe the division off of Turkey was the 4th ID.

Sign me,

Bob Getsfred
CPL, US Army (Ret)
KB8VNP


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***EDITOR'S NOTE****

Bob, how does one RETIRE from the Army as a CPL? 20 Years as an E4? I am just curious.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (KB8VNP @ Dec. 14 2004,18:10)]Also, you should know that even the lowliest of grunts (which I can proudly say I was) that knows anything knows that you have to change tactics and strategies or else you risk the fact that your enemy can predict your movements and inflict horrendus casualties. The &quot;Thunder Run&quot; to baghdad did what it was supposed to, with a minimum of casualties. (Perhaps you should read Tommy Franks' autobiography, &quot;American Soldier&quot;. He devotes a large section to his logic in planning the war.) Yes, the Secretary probably underestimated the strength of the insurgency but if all of you whiners would let war be waged as it should, then we would have secured the peace long ago.

Bob Getsfred
CPL, US Army (Ret)
KB8VNP


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Cpl. Bob,

Isn't it a military saying that no battle plan survives contact with the enemy intact?

I would have gone into the Navy, like my late father, but for medical reasons I was turned down. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[KB8VNP]

Hello David:

Yes that saying you quoted is true but it is that no battle plans survives FIRST contact with the enemy intact. Also, remember Korea. MacArthur landed the First Marine Division ALONE in North Korea to turn the tide. My Dad just missed that landing but was on the Chosin resevoir when the Marines where attacked by 80,000 Chinese. Is history repeating itself with a &quot;light force&quot; kicking the hell out of the enemy???

Bob Getsfred
CPL US Army (Ret)
KB8VNP


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[KB8VNP]

Boys? I hardly think they are boys. Is that what you considered yourself when you served? If do, you have a low opinion of yourself.

For nothing? There is a lot of data concerning Saddam that is available on the net. Do you consider his thumbing his nose and shooting at our aircraft patrolling the no-fly zone a non-punishable offense? He agreed to those terms to end the first Gulf War. If you think he can go back on his word, then I DON'T want to do business with you of any sort. You can't be trusted! Also, he abused the oil for food program. He abused and gassed his own people. And you consider what we did for nothing?

Gordon - I was diagnosed with a Cerebellar Astocytoma, a tumor on the brain, while on active duty with the 101st Airborne Division. My brain swelled after the surgery was complete. As a result of this, I lost vision in my right eye and half the visual field in the left eye, among other disabilities. However, I don't think I am as blind to the facts that you are.......

Bob Getsfred
CPL US Army (Ret)
KB8VNP

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[KB8VNP]

One thing I forgot, Gordon. Our troops are the ones doing the a$$ kicking. Not the Iraqis. Didn't we just clean Fallujah out?

Yes, our force is a &quot;light&quot; force!

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[KC2KFC]

Quote[/b] (KB8VNP @ Dec. 14 2004,18:10)]KC2KFC:

I believe the division off of Turkey was the 4th ID.

Sign me,

Bob Getsfred
CPL, US Army (Ret)
KB8VNP


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Bob,

Thanks for the correction. You are correct because a friend of mine who is a civil affairs officer and was originally attached to the brits at the start of the war was later attached to the 4th ID. That's the combat patch he now wears on his right shoulder.

Also I concur with your thoughts about our light forces doing a bang up job over there.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (KB8VNP @ Dec. 15 2004,04:23)]Gordon - I was diagnosed with a Cerebellar Astocytoma, a tumor on the brain, while on active duty with the 101st Airborne Division. #My brain swelled after the surgery was complete. #As a result of this, I lost vision in my right eye and half the visual field in the left eye, among other disabilities. #However, I don't think I am as blind to the facts that you are.......

Bob Getsfred
CPL US Army (Ret)
KB8VNP

# http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Go get him, Bob! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

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[KB9YCO]

I would agree that our current administration stretched some facts, that has been proven, in order to invade Iraq. I also agree that they most likely have a number of agendas (like all politicians) that have nothing to do with the initial reason to be in Iraq. I also agree that they have worsened the war on terror by causing a bigger backlash to what some view as 'American imperialism'. I also think we could've done a lot more to shut down Iraq, before a shot was even fired, if we really wanted to.
But, and this is a big one, WE ARE THERE NOW, there is no turning back, and if we did we'd be looked at ten times worse than if we'd done nothing at all. We must support the cause at this point, whether we agree with the original reasons or not, or whether we agree with the current administration. We need resolve to this situation, whether it be on our own, or with more world participation, we must find some way.
McCain is right to question Rumsfeld, we are all right to question anything and everything going on in our government; but please, do not allow yourselves to be drawn into a mentality that does not support the men and women doing the dirty work, and getting the job done. I'm not saying just ignore the staggering facts about the blatant lies of this administration, but don't forget the people that are actually fighting this war.

[K8YS]

Quote[/b] (N6WK @ Dec. 15 2004,20:09)]Yes it is a Great Victory for all those that are losing their son's and daughters over there. NOT!!!
The fact of the matter is this, Bush won with a majority, popular and electoral votes.

GET OVER IT!

Next time, put up a winner and not a whiner.

The hell with what other countries think, I don't care, America first, always, forever, amen.

Don't like it, change your call to a CO, BA, XE or VE, I don't care, you will not be missed.

The last time I looked, the military is a job, soldiers joined the military, they were not drafted, they are not indentured servants. They all joined for a reason, to serve our country, to get an education, to run away from home, it does not matter, they joined with eyes wide open. No one &quot;shanghi'ed&quot; them in some bar on the waterfront. While loss of any American is sad, I celebrate their decision, I honor their service, I mourn their death, but above all I remember that they made a conscience decision for whatever reason.


As for the conflict in Iraq, better in their yard than in mine.

Remember the World Trade Center, rememeber the USS Cole, remember the Kurds.

[KB9YCO]

Don't get me wrong Gordon, I don't think this administration should be in any way praised for the lies that lead to the war in Iraq, and I don't know that it will have a positive outcome for them or us, but I will ALWAYS support our troops and have some shadow of a hope that the ultimate outcome will be what the Bush administration claims it will be; less terrorists, and democracy for a suppressed populace. I don't know that that's alone what the Bush administration hopes to gain, but I do have a sincere wish for those values of freedom. Only time will tell, and the more this mess stays the same, the harder it will get. We shall see.

[KB8VNP]

Gordon

Age really doesn't have anything to do with it - it is a maturity thing. You considered yourself a man, why? Because you were out on your own, responsible for yourself. If you call one of these warriors a boy, out of sheer respect he won't call you down, but you won't be his/her favorite person.

I work at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio and constantly see these young men and women. Gordon, I am only a few years younger than you, but because I am older, I do not consider them to be kids. I am constantly amazed at the maturity they show in light of the fact that one day they may be in the combat zone. They are adults, equal to me!

Speaking of these warriors, I would like to see you tell them that the insurgents are kicking the crap out of them. But then out of respect, they may just walk away from you.

Does America have to immediately gain something to make war worthwhile? To free an oppressed people is all that we need. Now it sounds like you are the one who wants Iraq's oil, gold or other treasures to compensate us for going to war.

You know that freedom isn't free. Why do you think we should sit and do nothing to a despot?
KC2KFC

Did I understand that you are going soon. I would like to contact you to keep in touch. I will give you my address at work.

The disability thing is indeed relevant. It is an analogy that shows how blind you are to the facts.

[KB8VNP]

I never heard Bush say that Iraq's oil would pay for the war. I think that is something you imagined. MAybe you can show me something where he said that?

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ Dec. 14 2004,09:39)]Were YOU aware of the insurgent problem before the war started? #If so, you were remiss in not calling Mr. Rumsfield and warning him. #Perhaps you could have made a major difference. #

Ed
And the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor because it would make us (the US) sue for peace. I've got a great deal on a very beautiful antique bridge in Brooklyn. NY I'd like to sell you.....Ya interested?

[K9STH]

Has anyone considered that Rumsfeld has no confidence in McCain?

Glen, K9STH

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (K9STH @ Dec. 15 2004,20:19)]Has anyone considered that Rumsfeld has no confidence in McCain?

Glen, K9STH
I agree with Mr. Rumsfeld on that one, I think. I stated my reasons earlier, so I see no need to repeat them now.

[KB9YCO]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Dec. 15 2004,22:29)]Quote[/b] (K9STH @ Dec. 15 2004,20:19)]Has anyone considered that Rumsfeld has no confidence in McCain?

Glen, K9STH
I agree with Mr. Rumsfeld on that one, I think. I stated my reasons earlier, so I see no need to repeat them now.
Good point Glen, doesn't instill much confidence in either one of them to me personally, even in their own party they can't find concensus or talk to one another about the issues in a non-public forum; then again, I don't have much confidence in politicians anyway, republicans or democrats, they're pretty much the same at this point. Believe what you want to, but it is true.

[wu3u]

I once read that the ability of a person who has bought a &quot;rare&quot; painting that turns out to be a forgery is inversely proportional to how much the buyer paid for it.

I think that's where supporters of this stupid war are now: They were sold a bill of goods and given the high cost in blood and treasure, they will never admit that the Iraqi War was mistake and that their Emperor has no clothes.

N7AAO goes to great lengths to dig up a Bush apologetic commentator to show how lovely things really are in Iraq, sort of like &quot;No! It really IS a Rembrandt...just look a little closer.&quot;

I'd like to have AAO live in inner city Bagdhad for just a week.

After going to a store to buy milk (if it was even available) and getting shot at a few times or having a bomb explode as he walked home...well I digress.

Yer'ight.

Things in Iraq are just wonderful. Yeah, that's it! Just look a little closer and you will see that this painting really IS a Picasso.

Interesting to note that the government itself does not share this view.

In assessing American involvement in Iraq, the Pentagon's Defense Science Task Force comments in a recent declassified report:

&quot;American efforts have not only failed, they may also have achieved the opposite of what they intended.&quot;

(And I will do it my way AAO, thanks. I use an outboard spell checker on these and it does not support the board's accessory features...nice try though.)

&quot;The opposite&quot; being increased hatred and loathing among Iraqi citizens for our troops and all we stand for (whatever the hell that is anymore...I am at a loss to understand even IF our government stands for traditional American ideals anymore) , increased popular support for radical Islamic causes, increased hatred and anti-American sentiment in the Middle East and even in the West.

End result? The Iraqi people roar &quot;Get Lost!&quot; nearly in unison while a sizable and growing minority take up arms in that regard, in a war with no end, as we vainly try to smash and bash the Iraqi people into a second rate image of ourselves, mostly in an effort to save political face for George W. Bush and his cronies.


Not to be undone, the CIA's station chief in Baghdad recently wrote:

&quot;The situation in Iraq is deteriorating and not likely to improve any time soon.&quot;

But no....it really IS a Rembrandt. Really!

Ya just gotta believe!

Believe ye minions....that the King may have victory.

If it weren't so sad, it would be really, really funny.

TP

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (N8LXR @ Dec. 16 2004,12:04)]In assessing American involvement in Iraq, the Pentagon's Defense Science Task Force comments in a recent declassified report:

&quot;American efforts have not only failed, they may also have achieved the opposite of what they intended.&quot;
Why don't ya post a link to that report so the rest of us peons can read it and see what the context of that comment is, hmmm?

And don't tell me &quot;search for it yourself,&quot; since if I did that, and found that you'd yanked the quote out of context, you could say &quot;you didn't read the right report.&quot; I want you to specifically identify the report, via a link, so there is no confusion.

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[kc7jty]

LXR:
My only complaint is there isn't enough of you on here.

AAO: You're completely out of your league.

[KB8VNP]

AAO isn't out of his league! I have a feeling he is the master of his league.

[KB8VNP]

Gordon:

Thank you for the references you provided; however, these references do NOT prove that the war was over oil. #None of these references portrayed Bush as directly saying the war was over oil. #However, they did indicate that “administration officials” were responsible for the quotes. #The first reference you gave specifically stated that Iraq’s oil should be used to pay for the cost of prosecuting this war. #If true, then why has the President gone before congress in the springtime of each of the last two years to ask for a supplemental spending authority to pay for operations in Iraq? #If oil was paying to prosecute the war, I guarantee you that all of the humvees would be up-armored and there would be an abundance of equipment at FOBs. #A blind man can see that we taxpayers are paying for the war, it is not over oil. #In addition, if the oil goes to the victors as spoils of war we would really be protecting that pipeline from saboteurs, wouldn’t we?

Look at it historically. #Did we rape the German people after we kicked their a$$ in World War 2? #I don’t believe we did, in fact, we did the opposite. #We helped rebuild the country to make it one of the economic powerhouses that it is today. #Didn’t we do the same with Japan? #Both countries were losers in World War 2 but now their economies lead the world while ours struggles along, being decimated by the goods and services Germany and Japan produce.

Back to the oil thing. #If it was over oil, wouldn’t that make us a member of OPEC if we owned the oil? #Since we had over 30% of the world’s reserves and we kicked a$$ to get it, wouldn’t that make us the CHAIR of OPEC? #But so far, none of that has happened.

You know, you should really look at all of the facts before you begin to rant and rail at Bush and our government. #Let’s take education, for example. #If we lagged so far behind other countries, how come they send their students to our country to learn? #I attended a local college to complete the requirements for a degree in Electrical Engineering. #The majority of the students in any of the classes were foreign students from Pakistan, India, Saudi Arabia and the list goes on and on. #Then, the majority of the instructors are foreigners who stay after being educated in our system.

The bottom line is that the rest of the world does indeed rely on the US. #Why don’t their educated people return to their home countries and develop them into a super power? # After all, they don’t sign an agreement to use the education we have given them for only peaceful purposes or purposes we tell them to use it for. #The foreigners are here because they have a taste of freedom and like it.

The freedom to have a dual citizenship. #The freedom to speak as they wish (but you can’t threaten say the president’s life). #The freedom to choose their career, their wife or any of a million ideas. #And do you think you would be able to play CW on 40 meters? #Only if you had frequency hopping spread spectrum so the KGB or some other kick a$$ spy organization couldn’t get a lock on your location. Look at your own railings: #you label Bush as a jerk. #Do you think for one instance you could do that under Hussein’s rule? #What about Stalin or Hitler? #I guarantee as a minimum, you would know how much voltage your testicles could withstand. #Or you could disappear one night never to be seen or heard from again.

In the end, Gordon, it is not my job to change your opinion of the whole liberal versus conservative thing. #We are free and you are entitled to your opinion and I to mine. #I happen to be conservative and voted for Bush. #If you voted for Kerry, you had your reasons; however, you should not call Bush a jerk or stupid or let any of your emotions get the best of you and say childish things (I have an 8 year old that doesn’t characterize anybody like that and yes, he wanted Bush over Kerry). #I would hate to see a black helicopter appear over your house and you disappear, never to be heard from again…

One last thing, an apology is not included, as you haven’t proved that Bush said the war is over oil. #In addition, an apology should be offered if I hurt or abused you physically or mentally which I haven’t done. #If I am wrong I will apologize to you as a gentleman. #Since you have not provided me with a link where Bush directly says this war was over oil, I don’t need to apologize.


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[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (KB8VNP @ Dec. 16 2004,15:49)](I have an 8 year old that doesn’t characterize anybody like that and yes, he wanted Bush over Kerry). #I would hate to see a black helicopter appear over your house and you disappear, never to be heard from again…
I read this over about 5 times and it never changes....amazing. It really is saying what I think its saying.

[KB8VNP]

jty:

Taken out of context I guess you can make it say whateverr you want!

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[KB8VNP]

Thinking about your comment, jty, at first I didn't know what you were getting at. Now I now, you were probably trying to say that my 8 year old wanted Bush in the carnal way. Well, that is why your boy lost the election - you are a typical example of the democratic party - no morals at all. You probably even think its ok for Billy boy to do what he did with Monica. Well, keep up with the morals - you candidate will likely lose in the next election as well.



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[KB9YCO]

Slow down guys, I think you're both going a little far on this one. I think his comment, I am assuming now, was referring to 'the black helicopters' if he calls Bush a jerk thing; and it seems to me that your comment about the black helicopters was more tongue in cheek than what he thought. I'm just guessing, but I think you two are missing what the other is really saying.
Just playing Devil's advocate, at least trying, I could be completely wrong, it is rare but possible (insert rimshot). No one ever really wins in these type of debates anyway, but they're still interesting.

[KB9YCO]

Also, I agree with you to a point Gordon, but I don't think comparing Bush to Hitler is fair or even remotely the same situation. This administration has imposed it's will on many things that it really shouldn't, both foreign and domestic, but that hardly makes him a dictator hell bent on world domination and genocide. Tempering your argument with that kind of talk does not help the viewpoint you wish to prosper. Just had to say so... carry on gents.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (KB8VNP @ Dec. 16 2004,15:44)]AAO isn't out of his league! I have a feeling he is the master of his league.
Thank you for the kind words, Bob, but I get the feeling you are coming up behind me real fast... which is good... cause when you're on top everyone is aiming for you. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (KB9YCO @ Dec. 17 2004,09:41)]Also, I agree with you to a point Gordon, but I don't think comparing Bush to Hitler is fair or even remotely the same situation. This administration has imposed it's will on many things that it really shouldn't, both foreign and domestic, but that hardly makes him a dictator hell bent on world domination and genocide. Tempering your argument with that kind of talk does not help the viewpoint you wish to prosper. Just had to say so... carry on gents.
Aaaaah! My heart!

I am actually agreeing with part (note, please, I said part) of what Brett said.

I dunno if my heart can take it! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Dec. 16 2004,12:07)]Quote[/b] (N8LXR @ Dec. 16 2004,12:04)]In assessing American involvement in Iraq, the Pentagon's Defense Science Task Force comments in a recent declassified report:

&quot;American efforts have not only failed, they may also have achieved the opposite of what they intended.&quot;
Why don't ya post a link to that report so the rest of us peons can read it and see what the context of that comment is, hmmm?

And don't tell me &quot;search for it yourself,&quot; since if I did that, and found that you'd yanked the quote out of context, you could say &quot;you didn't read the right report.&quot; I want you to specifically identify the report, via a link, so there is no confusion.

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Still waiting on that link to that story... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

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[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (KB8VNP @ Dec. 16 2004,17:37)]Thinking about your comment, jty, at first I didn't know what you were getting at. #Now I now, you were probably trying to say that my 8 year old wanted Bush in the carnal way. #Well, that is why your boy lost the election - you are a typical example of the democratic party - no morals at all. #You probably even think its ok for Billy boy to do what he did with Monica. #Well, keep up with the morals - you candidate will likely lose in the next election as well.



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Boy are you off base. You couldn't have judged me more incorrectly, but hey...its OK. You people live in a fantasy bubble anyway. Enjoy that blissful ignorance, there sure seems to be plenty of it throughout the land.
BTW: your 8 yr old is probably right on par with those that voted for Bush.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (N6WK @ Dec. 16 2004,17:51)]It is ironic that you would refer to Germany and WWII because Bush and hitler both are simular in that they want to impose their will on the rest of the World.
Now here is something a cut above the usuall mindless chit chat.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (KB9YCO @ Dec. 17 2004,09:38)]I'm just guessing,
yes you are...and its not a good guess.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (KB9YCO @ Dec. 17 2004,09:41)]hell bent on world domination and genocide.
drop the &quot;and genocide&quot; and you've got something very believable. As far as the genocide part: probably no....but remember we have Guantanamo.

[KB9YCO]

Relax dude, you're preaching to the choir with me, I've got very little to say that is positive about this administration, but I try to be fair and not let partisan politics or propaganda cloud my thinking.
It seemed to me that the two of you were interpreting something completely different from what was actually said. If you really meant that his 8 year old would want Bush (nice useage of someone's kid for shock value, and creepy), or if he really meant that the black helicopters should be at your house, then you are both way out of line. Two stupid comments that add nothing to the debate at hand, no offense, but come on.
Can't you discuss something without resorting to that kind of childish bickering. I was just trying to clarify, and yes, I was guessing. If I am wrong on both counts it says something rather disturbing about both of you. Again, just a guess, and I am quite done guessing, I'd much rather stick to the issue that analyze pointless insults.

[KB9YCO]

Wow, and this list is growing, not a good sign for Mister Rumsfeld.
&quot;U.S. Sen. Susan Collins, a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, has joined other Republicans in criticizing Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.&quot;
&quot;U.S. Sen. Chuck Hagel, R-Nebraska, said troops in Iraq 'deserved a far better answer than that flippant response.' &quot;
Former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott, R-Mississippi.


News story (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/12/16/rumsfeld.senators/index.html)

[KB9YCO]

An update? Is he going?

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (KB9YCO @ Dec. 17 2004,12:11)]Wow, and this list is growing, not a good sign for Mister Rumsfeld.
&quot;U.S. Sen. Susan Collins, a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, has joined other Republicans in criticizing Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.&quot;
&quot;U.S. Sen. Chuck Hagel, R-Nebraska, said troops in Iraq 'deserved a far better answer than that flippant response.' &quot;
Former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott, R-Mississippi.


News story (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/12/16/rumsfeld.senators/index.html)
One thing to remember, Brett, is that SecDef does not serve at the pleasure of the Congress, but at the pleasure of the President.

Therefore, &quot;all&quot; these voices (what, four out of 535, counting both House and Senate, so far?) are just nattering to themselves. The only one's opinion who matters is Mr. Bush.

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[KB9YCO]

True, but it still points to some deep division within the party, which could ultimately affect the president's decision, and the over-all attitude of the Republican party. Hard to say, but it certainly isn't a good sign. Plus the fact that this is only the first four, who knows how many more there may be. Time is the tyrant.

[kc7jty]

We deserve Rumsfeld...and Condi as well. They are part of the Bush experience.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (KB9YCO @ Dec. 17 2004,12:28)]True, but it still points to some deep division within the party, which could ultimately affect the president's decision, and the over-all attitude of the Republican party. Hard to say, but it certainly isn't a good sign. Plus the fact that this is only the first four, who knows how many more there may be. Time is the tyrant.
Actually, what it shows is that these four think they can score political points by attacking Rumsfeld.

Now, let's see... there are 51 Republican Senators and 229 Republicans in the House... that makes 280. 4 out of 280 is 0.014285714285714285714285714285714. So, about 1.4% of Republicans in Congress have stated that Rumsfeld should go.

Yeah, 1.4% is a huge division in the party.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[KB9YCO]

Quote[/b] ]True, but it still points to some deep division within the party, which could ultimately affect the president's decision, and the over-all attitude of the Republican party. Hard to say, but it certainly isn't a good sign. Plus the fact that this is only the first four, who knows how many more there may be. Time is the tyrant. KB9YCO

Quote[/b] ]Actually, what it shows is that these four think they can score political points by attacking Rumsfeld.

Now, let's see... there are 51 Republican Senators and 229 Republicans in the House... that makes 280. 4 out of 280 is 0.014285714285714285714285714285714. So, about 1.4% of Republicans in Congress have stated that Rumsfeld should go.

Yeah, 1.4% is a huge division in the party. N7AAO
Just because they are the only people speaking out doesn't mean they are the only ones that think that way. I know what you're saying, but it can't be a good sign if someone in your own party will publicly denounce the officials they were partially responsible for electing, at least the president anyway since he is the person that has appointed these people. I won't be suprised if more people say something, we'll just wait and see.

[KB8VNP]

Man, go to a holiday call at work and miss out on about 2 pages of posts.

First, YCO - Brett- I know that WK and I are both missing the intent/meaning of each others messages. #I did not threaten with black helicopters, rather, I just made mention of the fact that if he insisted on calling the president names, one day the Secret Service would hear him and then what?

Next, jty, I apologize to you if I didn't catch your meaning. #One thing I was illustrating was about 2 weeks before the election CNN or someone indicated that in the poll done by scholastic reader for school children the winner was elected president. #I was trying to say that he was in the group that voted for Bush (Bush over Kerry); however, in this case I didn't make my meaning clear.

I am confused by WK's remark that the WW2 German Army was the best trained force in the world. #They had to be trained by their leadership and if that leadership was faulty, the training would also be faulty. #There isn't any doubt we kicked their a$$ and our leadership was much better than theirs. #It really doesn't make any difference, we won. #A win is a win whether they are pretty or ugly.

Also, I find that his remark is offensive, referring to the soldiers that abused the prisoners. #I would like to see where he found information that our soldiers tried to smuggle a lot of riches. #War trophies, perhaps, and I am sure anybody would like to get their hands on thst much money. However, it never left Iraq. #There have been a couple instance of stealing war trophies but the suitcases of money were not smuggled out.

[wd0ct]

&quot;First, YCO - Brett- I know that WK and I are both missing the intent/meaning of each others messages. I did not threaten with black helicopters, rather, I just made mention of the fact that if he insisted on calling the president names, one day the Secret Service would hear him and then what?&quot;

Please tell and then what. Is the secret service gonna swoop down with a black helicopter and drag someone away for calling dubya a dumbass, moronic, lying, war mongering, elitist, right wing, neocon, fool?

[kn6z]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 17 2004,11:08)]Quote[/b] (N6WK @ Dec. 16 2004,17:51)]It is ironic that you would refer to Germany and WWII because Bush and hitler both are simular in that they want to impose their will on the rest of the World.
Now here is something a cut above the usuall mindless chit chat.
Powerful nations, including this one, have been exherting their will against the rest of the world for a very long time. But it's getting expensive, isn't it? Small countries are aquiring big weapons, and rag-tag bands of thugs are finding novel ways to kick the Big Boy's asses.

[KB8VNP]

WK

Bush is NOT comparable to Hitler. The world domination angle is not even a viable option. The other peoples of the world would not even allow it to happen. If world domination was the President's agenda, we would be in more countries than you could count. There would be a draft but most importantly, you would not have the freedom to say the things you do.

As for the soldiers who have committed wartime atrocities, well, there is always some unscroupulous individuals that think it is ok to do these things. More importantly, didn't Jesus say the let he who is without sin cast the first stone? Why are you casting?

:rock:

[k5rna]

Hey.We should all thank efa for telling us this as it sure is a big help to us people who don't have TV's or radio to hear the news and the ones like my self who doesn't buy news papers because i don't know how to read. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (KB8VNP @ Dec. 17 2004,15:14)]Next, jty, I apologize to you if I didn't catch your meaning. #One thing I was illustrating was about 2 weeks before the election CNN or someone indicated that in the poll done by scholastic reader for school children the winner was elected president. #I was trying to say that he was in the group that voted for Bush (Bush over Kerry); however, in this case I didn't make my meaning clear.
Thanks for the explanation. I honestly think however, that 8 yr olds voting for who they think should be president is the epitome of sillyness. They will reflect what they hear from others and in no way be able to give and argue/defend their position as to why.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (wd0ct @ Dec. 17 2004,16:02)]Please tell and then what. Is the secret service gonna swoop down with a black helicopter and drag someone away for calling dubya a dumbass, moronic, lying, war mongering, elitist, right wing, neocon, fool?
Can you tell I'm smiling now?

P.S. Some groups are getting the run around by our gvt. because they wish to attend and protest W &amp; the war at his inauguration on Jan 20. Will be interesting to see how it all turns out.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (kn6z @ Dec. 17 2004,16:45)]Powerful nations, including this one, have been exherting their will against the rest of the world for a very long time. #But it's getting expensive, isn't it? #Small countries are aquiring big weapons, and rag-tag bands of thugs are finding novel ways to kick the Big Boy's asses.
Yes!

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (kn6z @ Dec. 17 2004,16:45)]Powerful nations, including this one, have been exherting their will against the rest of the world for a very long time. But it's getting expensive, isn't it? Small countries are aquiring big weapons, and rag-tag bands of thugs are finding novel ways to kick the Big Boy's asses.
Ya know, NZ, I am reading a book (well, I got it in e-book form, but you can get it on paper too) about just how Al Qaeda managed to surprise everyone on September 11, and what we need to do about it now.

People on both sides might want to check it out, as the author is being scrupulously fair about the decisions (both good and bad decisions) of all the administrations since Carter that led us to where we are now. In one paragraph he tells what the elder President Bush did wrong, then a few paragraphs later he talks about President Clinton making mistakes, too. I am about mid-way through the 3rd chapter, and I honestly can't tell what party the author belongs to.

(Fair Warning: If you're a hard-liner of either party, feeling that your party can do no wrong, and the other party can do no right, do not purchase this book... you won't like it.)

The book is America's Secret War (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=gu5jEZbAdl&isbn=0385512457&itm=1) by George Friedman, who is founder and chairman of Stratfor Forecasting, a private global intelligence company. (No, I don't make any money on that link, I provided it for everyone's convenience.)

As I said, folks on both sides who are interested in the war on terror should check it out.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[N7AAO]

Vewwy intewesting™...

Good ol' N6WK says:

Quote[/b] (N6WK @ Dec. 18 2004,20:24)]&quot;Judge not, that you be not judged&quot;

But, earlier in the same message he says:

Quote[/b] (N6WK @ Dec. 18 2004,20:24)]Well, I will Continue to say what I want, When I want about the current JERK in the White House. I didn't vote for Him and It's obvious that I do Not support him. So, If the black (and why do they have to be black) Helicopters come and do me in, then so be it. If it is my time to go, then I don't think there is much I can do about it.

So, is calling someone a &quot;JERK&quot; judging? I think it has to be... how do you know they are a &quot;JERK&quot; if you haven't judged them?

But, as a liberal, N6WK obviously has no problem with applying different standards to others than he applies to himself. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[KB8VNP]

WK

I am still waiting for links that show Bush, not some anonymous member of his administration, saying the war was over oil.:p

[KB8VNP]

WK

I think you need to read this ENTIRE page:

http://smokeonthewater.typepad.com/smokeon....ds.html (http://smokeonthewater.typepad.com/smokeonthewater/2004/06/sovereign_lands.html)

Oil my foot!

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (N6WK @ Dec. 18 2004,20:49)]And aren't you (mister I claim to be a Bible toter) Judging me by always Making some Snide comment about my being a &quot;Liberal&quot;&quot;??
Double Standards apply to you too davie??
And Again you go with the &quot;He's a Liberal&quot; crap . Same old story from you huh davie?? Always bagging on the People that disagree with you. What happened to that &quot;Christmas Spirit&quot; thing you were posting about in a different thread???
Well, there you go again™...

First, I never claimed to be perfect. Point 1-A, I was not the one that dragged out the &quot;judge not, lest ye be judged&quot; line, you were. Ever heard of practicing what you preach?

Second, I was not using &quot;liberal&quot; as an insult... merely as a form of identification, like your insistence on calling me &quot;davie.&quot; But, I'll stop if you will. Would you prefer &quot;Bush-hater&quot;? That's certainly descriptive of you!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

p.s. On second thought, I think I will still call you a liberal, since that is obviously what you are... on the rare occasion that I choose to dignify your rants with a response. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[W3MIV]

AAO.

David: The wise man does not argue with fools. Let it go; it is not worth the trouble.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Dec. 19 2004,11:00)]AAO.

David: The wise man does not argue with fools. Let it go; it is not worth the trouble.
Why do you think I ignored him for so long? One more reply, tho... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (N6WK @ Dec. 19 2004,10:06)]Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Dec. 19 2004,05:57)]I was not using &quot;liberal&quot; as an insult...
Yes you were!
Nice to know we have a telepath here to tell me what I was thinking. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KB9YCO]

Feel free to refer to my signature if you really want to know what a 'liberal' is, it's not an insult, and in most cases it's not a Democrat either. Just had to say it yet again.
I see that the downward slide for Mister Rumsfeld is continuing, here's the story:
Rumsfeld signature rubber stamped on condolence letters (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041219/wl_afp/usiraqmilitaryrumsfeld_041219111523)
Regardless of what political party or philosophy you choose to follow, this is just wrong. It's not like the numbers are up in the tens of thousands of soldiers to where he couldn't humanly keep up, and yet he can't even provide his own signature. That just seems wrong.
On another note, and to be fair, the President did defend Mister Rumsfeld in his impromptu press conference today. Here's the story:
Bush Comes to Rumsfeld's Defense (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=542&ncid=703&e=1&u=/ap/20041220/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/rumsfeld)

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Dec. 18 2004,13:31)]by George Friedman,
I just wonder if he is BIASED in favor of Israel?

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Dec. 19 2004,11:00)]AAO.

David: The wise man does not argue with fools. Let it go; it is not worth the trouble.
Ahhhh.....this one was good for a laugh out loud.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 20 2004,11:00)]Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Dec. 18 2004,13:31)]by George Friedman,
I just wonder if he is BIASED in favor of Israel?
So far, Israel has not even been mentioned.

Why must you assume that someone with a certain last name must be biased? Racial profiling, perhaps? Or is it just plain old bigotry?

Inquiring minds want to know!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[KB8VNP]

Gee, it looks as if the liberal press will get their man, Secretary Rumsfeld. #President Bush will have an opening in his cabinet..wait, EFA can fill it. #He must have lots of experience, plus he can do a better job. #Isn't that what your posts amount to, EFA? #You say Secretary #Rumsfeld doesn't have any experience. #That must mean you do. #Since you can name your own undersecretaries you can fire Wolfowitz and get none other than N6WK in there. #He is good at calling people names and distorting facts. #Then he can say that Bush said the war is over oil and he will have a link to prove that Bush said it.

How about that, the dynamic duo EFA and WK. #They should run for president in 2008!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Dec. 20 2004,12:05)]Inquiring minds want to know!
Just keep wondering you squeeky clean, puritan, politically correct, mainstream, George Bush supporting, pre programmed, &quot;terrorist&quot; hating, etc. person.
&quot;Hey everybody...I know who the bad guys are&quot;!

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (KB8VNP @ Dec. 20 2004,18:44)]How about that, the dynamic duo EFA and WK. #They should run for president in 2008!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
They couldn't be any worse than Hillary.

[KB8VNP]

Sparky?!?!

Better than some names I have collected over the years!

I need to check your links again and see if names are named. If not the attributed wuotes are a figment of the liberal press' minds.

:rock:

[K6UEY]

First of all I want to wish the BEST for the Brave Dedicated Troops who are fighting this countries battle in IRAQ.
There are troops in country who post on this board and also returning troops. Some of us would like to know how you feel,after risking your LIFE and losing buddies,just how it is to come home and have people like N6WK and others call you a loser.
The anti-war Crud in this country RUINED the lives of many returning veterans from the Viet Nam war and now they are trying to pull the same thing again for the brave troops fighting in IRAQ.
DON'T pay any attention to them,as you know there are sicko's from every generation.
The numbers don't lie,the majority of the voters backed President Bush,and APPRECIATE the sacrafice you troops are making for this country.

More people die from a 3 day Holiday weekend than have died in the IRAQ war but little is said. These people are cowards who will prey upon your bravery and sacrifice to make a political point,giving little thought and care how you weather the experience.

The president warned the country before going into Iraq that this terrorist fight will be a long and hard fought battle.The courage being demostrated by our troops in winning this battle is one that would make anyone PROUD to be an AMERICAN. # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[W5MEJ]

Quote[/b] (N6WK @ Dec. 21 2004,18:01)]You can bag on EFA and myself all you want but consider this, #If you and I #were both still in uniform, #You would be Saluting and calling me &quot;SIR&quot;. #But, I don't expect you to call me Sir any longer. My military days are over..Thank God!
With that attitude, I'm sure you were one of the officers I would have been happy to salute...

&quot;Sniper Check, Sir!&quot;

Orv, thanks for coming out of the shadows and posting on this one - I agree with you 100%!

If any of our troops over in the sandbox do happen to read this...Thank you for what you are doing. #I think about you every day. Every casualty report that I see causes me great pain, but I thank God that this country still has young men and women willing to put themselves in harms way so that folks like N6WK can freely express their opinion.

Merry Christmas, and Godspeed
Chuck

[W3MIV]

Welcome back, Orville. You've been gone too long. Some members of the class again have been unruly and are fecklessly throwing spit balls at the President and the finest Secretary of Defense in recent history. As usual.

Get out the yardstick and have at the little #@&amp;%#s!

[KB8VNP]

Well, Gordon, many thoughts and feelings are racing through my mind. #Our young men and women are doing a remarkable job. #They freed an oppressed people from a tyrant (can you say he DIDN’T gas his own people) in a short time. #They continually work to calm the insurgency, insurgents that aren’t even Iraqi. #These insurgents are fanatics that are taught only to hate Israelis and Americans. #You know what Gordon? #You are included in the latter category. #Your political views don’t mean squat to these insurgents, only that you are American.

I am sure you will blame the President for making the world hate the US. #One thing, remember after 9/11? #CNN kept showing al-Qaeda in their training camps. #Whose image was on the pop-up targets for the aspiring terrorists? #Gee, it was none other than Bill Clinton. #IMHO, Billy Boy was the culmination of this whole mess; dubya is going to be the one to get us out.

As far as being a leader and me calling you Sir and saluting is a figment of your imagination. #I have O-4s, O-5s, O-6s and above calling me Sir. #Our directorate commander, a bird colonel, came into my work area, and engaged me in respectful conversation. #I may have been a corporal many years ago but things change. #Life is dynamic not static.

You don’t exhibit any leadership qualities, Gordon. #To disagree with your commander-in-chief is one of your rights in this great country. #However, to call him jerk, moron and the rest of the adjectives you use is at best, childish. #In the military, it is a punishable (under the UCMJ) offense to call your CIC those names. #I can’t see being led by someone who willfully violates the UCMJ.



Again, I question your ability to lead. #I only know you through your childish name calling here on QRZ. #From that vantage point, I think you would have trouble leading your men into an ambush! #I am sure you would succeed after a while, but is that the mark of a good leader? #At the risk of offending you, I think you are a legend in your own mind. #

Finally, your attack on our fine servicemen/women is unjustified. #It amazes me that they can fight and die or become messed up for our country and you want to belittle them.

If you are such the leader you are, you should be trying to get over there. #And yes, I am trying to get there. #Since I work for the Department of the Air Force, there is a unique program for Electronic Engineers to go. #However, there is such a response that I am way down on the list. #The only thing I see from you is bi***ing and that won’t get anything accomplished. #Put your money where your mouth is!

I, too, want to express my thanks to all of our servicemen/women who are fighting over in Iraq. #I know it is thankless from people like N6WK but I appreciate the dangers you face everyday. #God Speed!

I thank you as well, K6UEY for coming out of the shadows and posting in this thread. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[n0ov]

Quote[/b] (N6WK @ Dec. 20 2004,19:01)]If you and I #were both still in uniform, #You would be Saluting and calling me &quot;SIR&quot;. #
Many folks in the military Salute two types of people -- leaders they respect and would follow and complete idiots who couldn't lead their way out of a paper bag.

Hm............ makes you wonder what type of salutes you would be receiving.

One thing to remember -- the military does not make policy, they enforce it. Need to support the troops and as far as I'm concerned their &quot;elected&quot; commander and chief!

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (w0pee @ Dec. 22 2004,07:07)]Need to support the troops and as far as I'm concerned their &quot;elected&quot; commander and chief!
Uh... it's Commander in Chief.

Using the proper terminology increases the chances that you'll be taken seriously. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[W3MIV]

Perhaps it is time to add a small corrective (emetic?) to this thread. The braying of fools has gotten off the track.

In the first place, McCain is in little position to judge much of anything military: He has been out of service for some thirty years and has little to offer beyond political bloviation.

Similarly, Powell retired some ten or eleven years ago and foresook the uniform for pin stripes: A whole different outlook on the world, and not necessarily one of modern Realpolitik.

I should here insert that the military and its technologies have changed exponentially since either one of them were involved (Powell as a CJCS and McCain as a jet jockey).

Donald Rumsfeld has taken on the mission of moving our military forces and structure from one of confronting a Soviet threat (primarily the swift invasion of Europe through the Fulda Gap with massive armor opposed by lots and lots of tactical nukes as the NATO forces fall back to the Channel). That mission is passé.

The downsizing and realignment of the whole military plant has been causing hives throughout the Pentagon, particularly among the JCS (who are nothing more than uniform-wearing politicians solely interested in parochial concerns for the old-school colors). They have, of course, an honored following among the trollops on Capitol Hill, and the leaks and behind-the-back whispers are coming from those two play-for-pay parlors.

Rumsfeld is doing a vital service to this nation, and, incidentally, to the modern military. Bush backs him because of what he is doing (and because Bush has balls enough to stand up for that in which he strongly believes).

As to the internet experts who are posting nonsense on this thread... my lead paragraph states my view quite clearly. I shall now follow my own sage advice and refrain from any further argument with fools.

[KB9YCO]

Welcome back Orv, I kind of forgot you left, tip that right wing scale a little further won't you?! Me, I prefer rational thinking.
As far as supporting the troops and the president I would agree, he is our president and they are the troops of our country; but, that doesn't mean you shouldn't question what is going on and why, that is fundamentally American, to do otherwise would show a lack of concern if you ask me. We the people need to keep a close eye on all the actions of the government, their power is derived from us, though they choose to sometimes forget that.
I'm sure we all have the best intentions in mind, but we must also all realize that politicians are not perfect and that it is our duty to maintain an interest in what's going on, good or bad, if we didn't we'd be doing more of a disservice to our soldiers.
Happy holidays.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (N6WK @ Dec. 22 2004,09:09)]Trolling is so Much Fun.
#So many take the Bite #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
AHA!

N6WK admits he's a troll!

And I have the full quote here to prove it! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Ahh, it's a wonderful day in the neighborhood! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[dancing a little jig]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[n0ov]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Dec. 21 2004,09:04)]Quote[/b] (w0pee @ Dec. 22 2004,07:07)]Need to support the troops and as far as I'm concerned their &quot;elected&quot; commander and chief!
Uh... it's Commander in Chief.

Using the proper terminology increases the chances that you'll be taken seriously. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Feedback noted.

Guess my spelling goes when I'm trying to stop my hands from typing what I'm actually thinking.

Merry Christmas

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Dec. 22 2004,05:09)]Get out the yardstick and have at the little #@&amp;%#s!
Is he a Catholic nun? Where do you keep the habit Orv? I'll bet you look spiff wearing it.

Saw a movie titled Magdalen Sisters last night. It was about a Catholic convent/prison/laundry for &quot;unpure&quot; girls in Ireland in 1964. The story was based on fact.
It was about as screwed up as our involvement in Iraq. (I was raised Irish/Catholic, I know all about it). The fact that our little venture into Iraq is a failure is a good thing. Had it been the easy success predicted we would probably be into Syria, Iran, who knows where now, and one can only guess as to where after that.

The misuse of our troops for this political/corporate fiasco is most unfortunate.
Do you think people like me hate/resent our military for this and the Viet Nam wars? If you do your thinking cap needs adjustment.

BTW: Welcome back sister.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (KB8VNP @ Dec. 22 2004,05:33)]Billy Boy was the culmination of this whole mess; dubya is going to be the one to get us out.
Welcome to my world of fantasy.

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] ]Saw a movie titled Magdalen Sisters last night. It was about a Catholic convent/prison/laundry for &quot;unpure&quot; girls in Ireland in 1964.

Yeah, I saw that. All the holy water fountains had seats.

(Next to them, Mr. Dirty Mind! Now for that impure thought say 5 Hail Marys and an act of contirtion.)

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Dec. 22 2004,08:04)]Using the proper terminology increases the chances that you'll be taken seriously. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
It doesn't work for you.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Dec. 22 2004,08:26)]I shall now follow my own sage advice and refrain from any further argument with fools.
Promises, promises.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Dec. 22 2004,11:19)]Quote[/b] ]Saw a movie titled Magdalen Sisters last night. It was about a Catholic convent/prison/laundry for &quot;unpure&quot; girls in Ireland in 1964.

Yeah, I saw that. #All the holy water fountains had seats.

(Next to them, Mr. Dirty Mind! Now for that impure thought say 5 Hail Marys and an act of contirtion.)
YO: #The thing that amazed me the most was the girls (except one) remaining devoted Catholics.
The study of human behavior is indeed the most complex and fascinating. Once you grasp even a small fraction of it it can be difficult to be at peace with your fellow men/women.

I would like to comment on your last thought but it would offend many. (the truth has a most capable way of doing that). In parting however, I will go as far as to mention the term homosexual pedophilia.

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 22 2004,14:32)]The thing that amazed me the most was the girls (except one) remaining devoted Catholics.
You make the common error of confusing the religion with the people who practice it. Christ left a law and a legacy; not all who profess to follow it do so without error, often serious error. That is not the fault of the doctrine; it is the fault of those who misinterpret it.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Dec. 22 2004,11:39)]Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 22 2004,14:32)]The thing that amazed me the most was the girls (except one) remaining devoted Catholics.
You make the common error of confusing the religion with the people who practice it. Christ left a law and a legacy; not all who profess to follow it do so without error, often serious error. That is not the fault of the doctrine; it is the fault of those who misinterpret it.
Promise broken.

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 22 2004,14:41)]Promise broken.
Wrong. Different topic.

[kc7jty]

Its not the facts of what you are and have been over the centuries. The fact is what you could have, would have, should have been.

Another puzzle of human behavior/thinking.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Dec. 22 2004,11:43)]Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 22 2004,14:41)]Promise broken.
Wrong. Different topic.
I'm the same fool though.

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 22 2004,14:50)]I'm the same fool though.
The Irish Catholicism in which I was raised taught me charity in the face of truth.

[gw4rcm]

Quote[/b] (N6WK @ Dec. 22 2004,09:45)]Other then a few bad apples, Our Troops are the BEST anwhere in the world. #I felt I needed to CLEAR that up!


UUhh!
Now I dispute that, The Brits have the best troops in the world, Hell we even have to train you lot.
You may have the brawn but we certainly have the brain.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
RCM

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Dec. 22 2004,11:39)]Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 22 2004,14:32)]The thing that amazed me the most was the girls (except one) remaining devoted Catholics.
You make the common error of confusing the religion with the people who practice it. Christ left a law and a legacy; not all who profess to follow it do so without error, often serious error. That is not the fault of the doctrine; it is the fault of those who misinterpret it.
Albert, my Brother:

Quote[/b] ]Stay away from a foolish man,

for you will not find knowledge on his lips.

Proverbs, 14:7, NIV

[gw4rcm]

N6WK

You have to admit that Dafydd not only bites the hook, he sometimes jumps right onto the riverbank
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
RCM

[kn6z]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Dec. 22 2004,08:26)]I shall now follow my own sage advice and refrain from any further argument with fools.
Do you understand the difference between an argument and an assertion?

[KB8VNP]

RCM

If the British army is the best in the world, how come there are only 8,000 Brits in Iraq. If we listened to you, they could have secured Iraq all by themselves!!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[gw4rcm]

Quote[/b] (KB8VNP @ Dec. 22 2004,17:51)]RCM

If the British army is the best in the world, how come there are only 8,000 Brits in Iraq. #If we listened to you, they could have secured Iraq all by themselves!!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
As I said, You have the brawn we have the brain,
8000 is all we need , it's not the size that matters it's how you use them.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
RCM

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (kn6z @ Dec. 22 2004,20:39)]Do you understand the difference between an argument and an assertion?
Certainly: deciBels.

[KB8VNP]

RCM and WK

Yes I admit they are good. #In addition, our Special Forces (Green Berets) are modelled after the SAS. #However, if they are so good they should have been able to clean up Iraq by now. #And with only the 8000 there. #However, they have to be kept in the south where the action isn't. #Also, some of them came up north to help us. #I wonder what happened to them???

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[gw4rcm]

There was a rumour that the SAS and the SBS,
were &quot;underground&quot; At Fallujah, acting as spotters for the USAF, when they were bombing the place.If so, rather them than me.
The Scotish Black Watch regiment was drafted south of Baghdad, when Fallujah kicked off, to cover for American troops.
They have now been withdrawn to the UK.
Not only are you're Delta Force, based on the #SAS but also trained by them.
RCM

[nx6d]

Who cares who's better?

Neither the UK nor the USA should be involved in this stupid war anyway.

Thanks to our criminal president el Busho, we're going to be stuck with the Iraq albatross for a long time.

Can any of you say... USSR in Afghanistan?

WX7B

[W3MIV]

Yes. USSR in Afghanistan. Your point?

[nx6d]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Dec. 23 2004,16:22)]Yes. USSR in Afghanistan. Your point?
Well, obviously, you are too obtuse to make the connection.

Quagmire, ie, we are getting stuck in Iraq as the Ussr got stuck in Afghanistan and eventually lost.

Does that clear it up for you?

WX7B

[K8YS]

Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Dec. 23 2004,20:51)]Who cares who's better?

Neither the UK nor the USA should be involved in this stupid war anyway.

Thanks to our criminal president el Busho, we're going to be stuck with the Iraq albatross for a long time.

Can any of you say... USSR in Afghanistan?

WX7B
are you on drugs?

[nx6d]

Quote[/b] (K8YS @ Dec. 23 2004,17:02)]Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Dec. 23 2004,20:51)]Who cares who's better?

Neither the UK nor the USA should be involved in this stupid war anyway.

Thanks to our criminal president el Busho, we're going to be stuck with the Iraq albatross for a long time.

Can any of you say... USSR in Afghanistan?

WX7B
are you on drugs?
Well, you obviously are...

[W3MIV]

Disregarding the stunningly &quot;adult&quot; riposte above, I can only comment that there is no parallelism between Afghanistan (either at present or when the USSR was waging war there some quarter-century ago) and what is happening in Iraq. To assert otherwise is to be mistaken at best, or disingenuous at worst. I leave it to the reader to decide which is true in this case.

Of the 18 Iraqi &quot;states&quot; or districts, fifteen are now fairly stable and mostly peaceful; three are dangerously subject to terrorist attacks. In most of Iraq, kids are returning to school, businesses are again functioning, markets are open, hospitals are staffed and functional, civil affairs proceed apace.

[KB8VNP]

RCM

I think CSM (Ret) #Eric Haney would have something to say about the Brits training Delta Force.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Dec. 23 2004,17:33)]Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Dec. 23 2004,16:22)]Yes. USSR in Afghanistan. Your point?
Well, obviously, you are too obtuse to make the connection.

Quagmire, ie, we are getting stuck in Iraq as the Ussr got stuck in Afghanistan and eventually lost.

Does that clear it up for you?

WX7B
Actually, one reason the USSR bogged down in Afghanistan is because the good old USA was arming the rebels... where do ya think the Northern Alliance came from in the first place?

Oh, I forgot, you only remember the history that makes the USA look bad. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KB8VNP]

Gee, on the next segment of CNN, Rumsfeld pays a surprise visit to Mosul. #Did Cohen go to visit the Cole sailors that were injured? #Did Aspin go to Mogadishu? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[kn6z]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Dec. 23 2004,18:16)]there is no parallelism between Afghanistan (either at present or when the USSR was waging war there some quarter-century ago) and what is happening in Iraq.
A number of interesting parallels are discussed at

http://www.hunterthinks.com/politics/iraq/vietnam.html

and

http://www.hunterthinks.com/

Hunter compares the current Iraq war to Vietnam and the USSR invasion of Afghanistan. He concludes that the Iraq war is much less like Vietnam than Afganistan.

Hunter makes some predictions about the Iraq war in the first link, then scores himself in the more recent, second link. He recaps Iraq/Afghanistan parallels in the second link.

[gw4rcm]

Quote[/b] (KB8VNP @ Dec. 23 2004,18:18)]RCM

I think CSM (Ret) #Eric Haney would have something to say about the Brits training Delta Force.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif
I don't know who Eric Haney is, but Delta Force was founded in 1977 by a Col Beckwith and was influenced by the SAS, as a result of of a year long (62-63) exchange tour with them. (Quote from specialoperations.com)
The SAS has trained and advised counter terrorist organisations, from many countries, and you would find that they often have &quot;foreign&quot; senior officers attached to they're units.
RCM

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Dec. 22 2004,17:51)]Can any of you say... USSR in Afghanistan?

WX7B
Every time I try to say it it comes out: USA in Afghanistan.

[kc7jty]

Can anyone say USA in Iran? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!
It is TIME kiddie