View Full Version : Amateur Radio Marginalized by FCC on BPL Issue
AA7BQ
10-30-2004, 06:14 PM
==>FCC BPL REPORT AND ORDER STRESSES INTERFERENCE AVOIDANCE, RESOLUTION
The FCC this week released the full BPL Report and Order (R&O) in ET
Docket 04-37 that it adopted just two weeks ago. While extolling the
purported benefits of broadband over power line technology, the 81-page
document also declares the FCC's intention to protect licensed services
from harmful interference.
"We recognize that some radio operations in the bands being used for
Access BPL, such as those of Amateur Radio licensees, may occur at
distances sufficiently close to power lines as to make harmful
interference a possibility," the FCC conceded in its R&O. "We believe that
those situations can be addressed through interference avoidance
techniques by the Access BPL provider such as frequency band selection,
notching, or judicious device placement."
Notches would have to be at least 20 dB below applicable Part 15 limits on
HF, 10 dB below on VHF. The FCC called the ability to alter a system's
operation to notch out transmissions on specific frequencies where
interference is occurring "a necessary feature for resolving interference
without disrupting service to BPL subscribers."
In line with remarks made at the October 14 open meeting where the FCC
adopted the R&O--then still in draft form--the FCC declined to reduce the
Part 15 radiated emission limit for BPL systems. It maintained that
emissions from BPL systems are very localized and at low enough levels to
generally preclude harmful interference.
The FCC said it had no evidence before it that BPL operation would
significantly contribute to generally raising background noise levels. At
the same time, it seemed to put some of the onus on Amateur Radio
licensees to take steps to avoid power-line interference--and, by
inference, BPL interference--in advance.
"In addition, because power lines inherently can radiate significant noise
emissions as noted by NTIA and ARRL, good engineering practice is to
locate sensitive receiver antennas as far as practicable from power
lines," the FCC said.
In a footnote, the FCC took pains to advise ARRL that in cases where its
members experience RF noise, "such noise can often be avoided by carefully
locating their antennas; in many instances an antenna relocation of only a
relatively short distance can resolve noise interference."
BPL operators would be required to avoid certain bands, such as those used
for life and safety communications by aeronautical mobile or US Coast
Guard stations. The FCC R&O makes clear, however, that similar rules will
not apply to the Amateur Service.
"We similarly do not find that Amateur Radio frequencies warrant the
special protection afforded frequencies reserved for international
aeronautical and maritime safety operations," the Commission said. "While
we recognize that amateurs may on occasion assist in providing emergency
communications," the FCC added. It described typical amateur operations as
"routine communications and hobby activities." (emphasis added)
Although some cases of harmful interference may be possible from BPL
emissions at levels up to Part 15 limits, the FCC said, "we agree with
NTIA [National Telecommunications and Information Administration] that the
benefits of Access BPL service warrant acceptance of a small and
manageable degree of interference risk." The Commission reiterated in the
R&O its belief that BPL's public benefits "are sufficiently important and
significant so as to outweigh the limited potential for increased harmful
interference that may arise."
Among other specific provisions, the FCC's new rules mandate certification
of BPL equipment instead of the less-stringent verification, a public BPL
database--something the BPL industry did not want--and mechanisms to deal
swiftly with interference complaints. BPL systems will have to incorporate
the ability to modify operation and performance "to mitigate or avoid
potential harmful interference" and to deactivate problematic units, the
R&O says.
Further, the new rules spell out the locations of "small geographic
exclusion zones" as well as excluded bands or frequencies--concessions
made primarily at the insistence of the NTIA, which administers radio
spectrum for federal government users--and "coordination areas" where BPL
operators must "precoordinate" spectrum use. The rules also detail
techniques to measure BPL emissions from system equipment and power lines.
The FCC said it expects "good faith" on both sides in the event of
interference complaints. While the Commission said it expects BPL
operators to take every interference complaint seriously and to diagnose
the possible cause of interference quickly, it also suggested that
complainants have responsibilities.
"At the same time, we expect the complainant to have first taken
reasonable steps to confirm that interference, rather than a receiver
system malfunction, is occurring and, to the extent practicable, to
determine that the interference source is located outside the
complainant's premises," the Commission said.
Shutting down a BPL system in response to a valid interference complaint
"would be a last resort when all other efforts to satisfactorily reduce
interference have failed," the FCC said.
League officials are studying the R&O and considering possible responses.
The ARRL Executive Committee (EC) already has authorized filing a Petition
for Reconsideration. The EC also authorized ARRL General Counsel Chris
Imlay, W3KD, to "prepare to pursue other available remedies as to
procedural and substantive defects" in the BPL proceeding.
For more information on BPL, visit the "Broadband Over Power Line (BPL)
and Amateur Radio" page http://www.arrl.org on the ARRL Web site.
Material from The ARRL Letter may be republished or reproduced in whole or
in part in any form without additional permission. Credit must be given to
The ARRL Letter and The American Radio Relay League.
Quote[/b] (aa7bq @ Oct. 30 2004,11:14)]==>FCC BPL REPORT AND ORDER STRESSES INTERFERENCE AVOIDANCE, RESOLUTION
The FCC this week released the full BPL Report and Order (R&O) in ET
Docket 04-37 that it adopted just two weeks ago. While extolling the
purported benefits of broadband over power line technology, the 81-page
document also declares the FCC's intention to protect licensed services
from harmful interference....
The FCC acted based on the information provided.
If ham radio was 'marginalized'(ARRL's wording, not the FCC's, which actually praised ham radio in the proceedings), it either is an accurate description of the situation in the greater sense, or an indication of a non-compelling position taken by those who commented with respect to ham radio , and that includes the ARRL; these are my opinions based upon my reads of the R&O. I urge you to read them to form your own opinion.
In any case, it is time to work with the Access BPL folks, as the FCC indeed recommends.
73,
Chip N1IR
Looks like this administration is bent on ruining not only the government of this great country, but radio as well. We need to vote these rascals out in three days...Powell, in his self assured wisdom, doesn't have a clue..(I am a straight ticket republican for 50 years, who has seen the light)
...wake me up when this is all over
Quote[/b] (aa7bq @ Oct. 30 2004,11:14)]FCC added.... It described typical amateur operations as
"routine communications and hobby activities."[/b] (emphasis added)
Yes.
Why do so many of us not see this?
This is not why the amateur radio service exists.
The bulk of our activity is a bonus, not a right.
73,
Chip N1IR
WD8OQX
10-30-2004, 07:16 PM
WHAT ARE THESE PEOPLE THINKING? - We'll see what they think the next time there "lights go out & the boogieman is after them" - http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Quote[/b] (k7fd @ Oct. 30 2004,12:06)]yawn
zzzzzzzzz..... here too.
Chip already on the soapbox. #Here we go again.
The never ending speech on how wrong we all are.
Good God Chip, is there anything you think about other then BPL? You have made the same point about 50 times.
Really tiresome. #Think I'll spend my time in the courts if needed, and not listening to the same old thing over and over again.
And the court is where this is headed. #And in case anyone is confused, neither the FCC, GWB, or JFK has the final word on this one. #The courts will decide.
73, #W6NJ
Quote[/b] (NY7Q @ Oct. 30 2004,12:06)]Looks like this administration is bent on ruining not only the government of this great country, but radio as well. We need to vote these rascals out in three days...Powell, in his self assured wisdom, doesn't have a clue..(I am a straight ticket republican for 50 years, #who has seen the light)
Amen. #Same here for 37 years. #Tuesday, I'm making a different choice.
Michael Powell is absolutely daft. #And, so are the staff who have relegated anything but federal,aircraft, and radio telescope frequencies to 'non-essential' licensed services. #There's even a threat of administrative action for (in the FCC's opinion) what are deemed 'frivolous interference complaints.'
I guess they must think that of the situation out in Arizona, since they've taken no action on the complaint.
Here's the link to the Order:
FCC's BPL Sellout (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-04-245A1.pdf)
This was a complete sham. #And, issued before the NTIA's second phase study was completed. #I filed a petition seeking a second rulemaking notice to accommodate the additional information forthcoming from NTIA (so that it could be in the record and commented on). #And, as I expected, it was denied.
Valid data, after all wasn't that important unless your service was deemed important to protect from interference. #And, of course, they wouldn't want any more validation of the interference problem.
Inflated, erroneous flap by manufacturers and incorrect fabrications by utilities were the primary drivers for their decision anyway. Personally, I'm going to laugh my a** off when the idiotic utility that intends to use BPL as a SCADA medium finds itself with lots of incorrect operations and inability to status or control their systems since only a few watts of nearby RF has been shown to stop BPL operation. In fact, time for us to think about a plethora of 10Meter and 6Meter beacons.
Thank goodness that the order was issued before next Tuesday, though.
And, thanks, Fred, for posting this quickly.
73,
Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL
kc5lmf
10-30-2004, 07:45 PM
I sure wish we didnt blame BPL on politics -- its economic... no matter who is in the White House -- BPL -- will fail or succeed on its own financial merits...
I really cant see either Kerry or Nader or anyone giving a rat's ass about BPL issues so saying that this or that ADMINISTRATION can/will do something is immature --
no matter who we elect (or don't) if BPL can make money, and thus be able to be taxed, or just benefit one future voter -- its going to happen....
But anyway -- it will be funny to watch when a few 1000sss all start doing 10 meter becons or continous CW near the power lines and completely knock out all BPL through their neighborhood grid... theorectically one guy with a mobile 40 watt 10 meter trans parked under the BPL line could shut off an entire neighborhood...
LOL
w5hze
10-30-2004, 07:51 PM
What can be said about this that hasn't already been said before? #Hmmm . . . well, did anyone notice that the FCC blessed the BPL equipment manufacturers & operators with a 1 1/2 year (18 month) span during which the existing (non-certified, non-compliant, without shutdown capability, with inadequate notching capability, etc.) equipment may continue to be manufactured, sold, and deployed- and that any existing systems as well as systems installed during that 1 1/2 year period are in effect "grandfathered" and thus are to a large degree exempt from many of the stipulations of the R&O?
A technology refresh by the manufacturers probably would have occured by that time anyhow. #So the FCC in effect indicated that there is no sense of urgency to protect the spectrum and licensed operations by deploying certified equipment during the initial buildout phase. #A lot of infrastructure can be made operational in 18 months!
Also- the FCC did nothing more than to "suggest" that BPL operators test systems deployed in the field to assure emission compliance. #Their only burden is to resolve interference cases via the stipulated guidelines, which place no real urgency on interference resolution where amateurs are involved (the process remains relatively unchanged from the existing process for power line interference, #which is so very very frustrating to us). #They have to maintain a database (not a big deal)- which can be #managed by a BPL proponent (what a wonderful idea- NOT). #
And then the FCC had the gall to indicate that they would punish any "frivolous" interference reports (which you know darn well was a threat aimed directly at amateurs). #Considering that the FCC seemingly feels that every interference report submitted by amateurs during the so-called "trials"- no matter how well documented- was basically "frivolous," then where does that leave us in the future?
So the R&O really places NO additional compliance burdens on the BPL operators in the short term, certainly nothing substantial (except for coordination/ avoidance related to certain "protected" frequencies and areas). #Any technological improvements necessary for compliance with the terms of the R&O can wait until the next generation of BPL equipment, sometime in 2006- and hereafter amateurs must walk a fine line when reporting BPL interference so that their cases are not labeled as "frivolous," thus resulting in reprisals from the FCC.
I am very disappointed with this complete sellout on the part of the FCC- no, that not right, I am absolutely livid. #A lot of people- from many services, not just amateurs- submitted detailed comments in an effort to identify issues and offer alternatives. #There was a great deal of solid substance within those comments, substance which was completely ignored (or belittled) by the FCC in the R&O. #One expects public servants, when presented with compelling evidence, to "do the right thing." #It would appear that the leader of the FCC regards himself not as a servant but instead a master . . . Mr. Powell should resign & assume his hard-earned position within the BPL industry. #He has broken faith and is no longer qualified to lead a major federal agency.
Ron WB5HZE
You know whats really sad about this? #BPL has been banned in most other countries that it was/is installed. #Leave it to this country because of politics/money (same thing), we will to have it in this country, needed or not.
Never mind it was a total, absolute, dismal failure in other countries. #Oh no, the USA can do better, we know better, we're smarter - no we're idiots. That's probably how we look to amateurs in other countries right now.
I believe BPL is also about poliitcal correctness. #How so? #The drive for equalality for the masses thats how so. #The poor disanfranchised who can't get broadband deserve to get like everyone else. #In very short order, I have grown to despise Powell, the wimps at NTIA and all the other players including the providers of BPL who know in their minds this stuff is no good, will never be good, if poor technology and was banned everywhere and yet they went for it.
It is so simple. Never mind all the technical studies, just this one simple fact we all know. Why is cable TV transmitted along a coaxial cable. Together now class, "because if it wasn't, it would interfere by signal radiation." Very good class. Now if one was to take an unshielded cable and place the same RF signal on it, what would happen. "It will radiate the signal instead of confining it to the cable". Again very good class, you are all so smart. Excuse me while I go puke.
K2WH
Quote[/b] (kc5lmf @ Oct. 30 2004,12:45)]I sure wish we didnt blame BPL on politics -- its economic... no matter who is in the White House -- BPL -- will fail or succeed on its own financial merits...
I really cant see either Kerry or Nader or anyone giving a rat's ass about BPL issues so saying that this or that ADMINISTRATION can/will do something is immature --
no matter who we elect (or don't) if BPL can make money, and thus be able to be taxed, or just benefit one future voter -- its going to happen....
If you had done a little research, you would have heard from the horse's a** his exact and specific cheerleading words for BPL (Dubyah's Farmington, NM speech and elsewhere).
Kerry has said nothing about BPL. #Only broadband in general, which I'll assume you understand is not just BPL.
Economics? #No, its not economic in rural areas. #Which was supposedly why Powell was cheerleading for it. #For areas that ostensibly had no other choice.
Purely big bucks in W's hip pocket is where the money is/was. #From the likes of honest, forthright, ethical folks like Ken Lay. #His biggest contributor in the last election. #Lay was CEO of Enron, of course.
73,
Lee
W6EM
"Following the lead of Dwight D. Eisenhower's son John, and Ronald Reagan, Jr. on election day."
AB8TM
10-30-2004, 08:29 PM
Ask yourself who has been selling Amateur Radio as a hobby.
The day that it is just a hobby will not happen, because that is the day it will end.
n7uqa
10-30-2004, 08:39 PM
This is exactly what I expected, the FCC has just put the amateur radio service on the same level as the CB service was 30+ years ago. Mr Powell may be a nice guy in person but he's a technical moron (no offense Mr. Powell). Mr. Powell, you are overstating BPLs importance by several orders of magnitude. The fact that the NTIA wanted exclusion zones and frequency's that are prohibited from BPL is proof that BPL will cause interference to thoes using the HF band.
"We similarly do not find that Amateur Radio frequencies warrant the special protection afforded frequencies reserved for international aeronautical and maritime safety operations," the Commission said. "While we recognize that amateurs may on occasion assist in providing emergency communications," the FCC added. It described typical amateur operations as "routine communications and hobby activities."
This implys that the amateur radio service almost never gets involved with emergency communications. This is a weak argument and has NO merit.
Now is the time for lawsuits, the FCC has ignored the technical facts and is dragging their feet in resolving current BPL interference (i.e. Cottonwood Arizona). BPL is NOT groundbreaking technology, it's a spin off of the PLC network that the power company uses for grid control and is as old as amateur radio itself.
I for one will not give up, BPL providers can expect me to keep a blow torch lit under their ass to get any BPL interference resolved immediately. If they turn a blind eye to me I won't screw around, I'll just sue. It will certainly be interesting to see how all this works out in the end, I would suspect that BPL providers are going to find the interference complaints impossible to manage.
Craig - N7UQA
Quote[/b] (w6em @ Oct. 30 2004,12:35)]
Michael Powell is absolutely daft. #And, so are the staff who have relegated anything but federal,aircraft, and radio telescope frequencies to 'non-essential' licensed services. #There's even a threat of administrative action for (in the FCC's opinion) what are deemed 'frivolous interference complaints.'
73,
Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL[/QUOTE]
Glad they slipped that one in. Imply that you may get cited if you complain about interference.
These are the "Nice Folks" that Chip says we should cooperate with.
Right, real nice. Now you will need to retain an attorney to protect yourself when you file a complaint.
Actualy, it is time for lawyers now. That document has more holes then swiss cheese.
Absolute double talk, and full of legal problems.
Yep, America should be proud to implement bogus tecnology, that has been proven harmful by so many other countries.
Just makes you proud. At least they will be able to work HF in Iraq, while we look at our S-Meters at 60 over.
But, don't expect Kerry to fix this. Just like the rest, he likes that money a lot more then your "Hobby".
W6NJ
Quote[/b] (n7uqa @ Oct. 30 2004,13:39)]I for one will not give up, BPL providers can expect me to keep a blow torch lit under their ass to get any BPL interference resolved immediately.
Craig - N7UQA
All right Craig,
Now that wakes me up.
A few thousand pissed off people and a few lawyers can make a difference.
W6NJ
k1ltj
10-30-2004, 09:03 PM
For those of you that think this isn't political, you need to re-think the issue. This is big business running the government, and the government employing nepotism in it's appointments. Do you think we can't change that? If you do, then just give it up now. Or think about this. Election day is the only hope at all for a solution. With a new administration there may be a chance, with the current one there is obviously no chance at all.
w5hze
10-30-2004, 09:28 PM
I doubt that a change of administration will have any effect on the BPL issue- it's not likely to warrant a President's personal attention unless BPL begins to interfere with the average Joe's home entertainment system on a wholesale basis, or unless it interferes with the comms from Air Force One.
But let's say that it does catch the next President's eye: #let's see, one candidate will put in on the back burner for four years while he deals with other matters more dear to his heart, the other will sit on the fence for four years while he decides which side of the BPL issue is politically safe . . . someone tell me, is there any candidate out there who is likely to do something for us? #Didn't think so.
73 . . . Ron WB5HZE
The next step, albeit a waste of time, is what the League and perhaps others like the Association of Public Safety Communications Officials will likely take: A Petition for Reconsideration. #The FCC has a history with these. #They accept them and wait 6 months or longer to do anything with them. #Which usually amounts to a couple of paragraphs to deny what's asked.
But, I would guess that the League must believe that going directly to the Court of Appeal could likely be challenged for not having exhausted all agency appeal processes first.
Looking at the calendar, folks, we're talking at least a year before the courts will ever get this.
Does anyone know if there's such thing as an "Emergency Petition for Reconsideration"? If there is, the League, and especially APSCO should file same as time is of the essence, especially for the potential harm to law enforcement, fire, and paramedic services using the 30-50MHz fixed and mobile band. #One such agency, the Missouri Highway Patrol emphatically commented on its concerns, and, of course was all but ignored. #Also, the California Highway Patrol operates exclusivelly in that band and would be similarly impeded by BPL interference. #Although, it looks like only perhaps municipalities will roll out BPL in CA.
To try and take on the Commission as individuals, you are talking big bucks, since I don't believe that the ARRL has enough resources to defend hundreds of us from administrative penalties from the FCC for filing complaints. #We need to be patient, and compile accurate logs of interference, and just as importantly, dates, times and context of discussions with offending BPL operators, and their response to each complaint. #That way, collectively, a history could be documented for perhaps some type of class action litigation or some such.
Remember, we aren't the only ones who got screwed. #And, we're in pretty good company with the likes of APSCO, NAB, and several more.
Now IS the time to let the ARRL pursue this along with others who have the influence and the pockets to support a cadre of attorneys to take the FCC on.
Good luck to all. #Its not our fault. #Its not the ARRL's fault, either. #Quite simply one of the biggest purchases of a government agency in our lifetimes.
73,
Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL
KC9AMZ
10-30-2004, 10:22 PM
[QUOTE]But anyway -- it will be funny to watch when a few 1000sss all start doing 10 meter becons or continous CW near the power lines and completely knock out all BPL through their neighborhood grid... theorectically one guy with a mobile 40 watt 10 meter trans parked under the BPL line could shut off an entire neighborhood...
Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!
Finally, we'll be able to put all the CBers-who-escaped-into-10meters types to good use. I can see the headlines now ->"Local BPL access utility foiled by Texas Star linear amplifier".
Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!
KB1LQC
10-30-2004, 10:24 PM
Im not sure if this waas already said but I wonder if amatuers have primary or secondary privilages with BPL? #Its probably primary but i just wanna make sure. and also if this is true:
[QUOTE]
"But anyway -- it will be funny to watch when a few 1000sss all start doing 10 meter becons or continous CW near the power lines and completely knock out all BPL through their neighborhood grid... theorectically one guy with a mobile 40 watt 10 meter trans parked under the BPL line could shut off an entire neighborhood..."
[/QOUTE]
then why not have everyone in the arizona area do that all at once for a day and see what happens? mabye the BPL companies would see that Amatuers have a lot more power than they think?
Quote[/b] (w6em @ Oct. 30 2004,14:31)]
Remember, we aren't the only ones who got screwed. #And, we're in pretty good company with the likes of APSCO, NAB, and several more.
Now IS the time to let the ARRL pursue this along with others who have the influence and the pockets to support a cadre of attorneys to take the FCC on.
Good luck to all. #Its not our fault. #Its not the ARRL's fault, either. #Quite simply one of the biggest purchases of a government agency in our lifetimes.
73,
Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL
Hi Lee,
Good post. #There isn't much need to get excited just yet. #This is going to be a drawn out process. #The organizations need to fight the FCC. #Individuals won't have a chance.
As individuals, we need to go after the BPL offenders. #I really don't think the FCC will do a thing. #That FCC document has so many contradictions it isn't funny.
I really like the part, where I should move my antennas to the front yard to get away from the power lines. #Cracks me up.
Obviously the FCC talks Part 15 Rules for BPL, but doesn't intend on actualy applying them to BPL.
The key now, is to start documenting band noise. #If possible record the sound. #BPL does have it own unpleasing noise. #
It's not frivilous, if you can prove what you heard before, and what you have now after BPL is deployed. #I would let the FCC know up front that all has been documented, and the methods used to make sure that BPL is at fault.
Beyond that, it should be quite simple to isolate the origin of the interference with a wideband portable connected to a directional loop antenna.
I'm sure that down the road, the ARRL will publish many methods to get the evidence. #And, I am sure that we can work on some software to demodulate the signals, and actualy start reading data, to eliminate any doubt as to the origin of the interfering signal.
You can be sure the hackers will be working on this right away.
But HF still works, and I got a JA on 10 meters 10 over 9 on the back of my beam, so I think I'll work some DX, while I still can.
73, # W6NJ
Quote[/b] (W6NJ @ Oct. 30 2004,17:04)]And, I am sure that we can work on some software to demodulate the signals, and actualy start reading data, to eliminate any doubt as to the origin of the interfering signal.
You can be sure the hackers will be working on this right away.
But HF still works, and I got a JA on 10 meters 10 over 9 on the back of my beam, so I think I'll work some DX, while I still can.
73, # W6NJ
Good thoughts. #Hopefully fact and the law will prevail.
What you said about demodulating the BPL signals by hackers reminded me of what Dubyah Shrub said in Farmington, NM about doctors being able to send (and receive) patient medical information remotely. #The last time I checked, such stuff is quite sensitive and priveleged. #And demonstrated how little Shrub knew and knows about the technology.
I can see it now: #Hackers with portable gear to intercept BPL-radiated signals and decipher credit card information, medical records, and goodness knows what else. #Kind of like the characters that drive around in search of a wireless phone cradle to connect to. #Only, much simpler. #And, then there are the really stupid utilities that claim to want to use BPL for control of their distribution lines. #Now, that would be really laughable to watch a hacker shut down half a city using BPL for SCADA communications.
It's somewhat laughable. #No, more like pathetically laughable.
Propagation was excellent today here on 10M as well. #Heard serveral 10FM repeaters and a German using one calling CQ. #However, my QRP Motorola MT1000 handheld couldn't quite key them up.
73,
Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL.
K7JAZ
10-31-2004, 12:33 AM
Quote[/b] (kc5lmf @ Oct. 30 2004,12:45)]I sure wish we didnt blame BPL on politics -- its economic... no matter who is in the White House -- BPL -- will fail or succeed on its own financial merits...
I really cant see either Kerry or Nader or anyone giving a rat's ass about BPL issues so saying that this or that ADMINISTRATION can/will do something is immature --
no matter who we elect (or don't) if BPL can make money, and thus be able to be taxed, or just benefit one future voter -- its going to happen....
But anyway -- it will be funny to watch when a few 1000sss all start doing 10 meter becons or continous CW near the power lines and completely knock out all BPL through their neighborhood grid... theorectically one guy with a mobile 40 watt 10 meter trans parked under the BPL line could shut off an entire neighborhood...
LOL
I don't think that's going to help our case at all. Who's going to get the blame and be responsible for reducing power, making modifications, adjustments, relocation of antenna etc.? Not BPL, the interfering amateur. It's obvious we rate very low on their list of priorities and they don't care if they interfere with us. All the more reason to think they really WILL care if amateurs interfere with their precious BPL. I'm not a kneejerk panicky type, but I can see them really coming down on Amateur Radio, or at least the specific Amateur stations which cause significant problems with BPL. All in all, it sounds like the courts are going to be busy.
Regarding Bush vs Kerry and BPL, I hate to sound paranoid, but it's been mentioned before that one use of BPL is that anything plugged into an AC outlet can be accessed and information gathered via BPL. In these days of the Patriot Act, isn't it possible that this may be the number one reason the government is forcing BPL through, and the "broadband internet in every pot" is a smokescreen? It's been proven that their claims about BPL just aren't true...If this has anything at all to do with the gov. pushing BPL down our throats, then it stands to reason that maybe BPL would NOT have happened no matter who's in office, as most of these so-called national security measures have come about by Bush's people. Don't misunderstand, I'm not crazy about Kerry either, and I was for Bush in the beginning, but his goverment is getting scary, and it's hard to dispute that his administration has done more to bring about Orwell's 1984 than any other administration. It could be argued that any President might be doing the same things, since the 9/11 attacks, but that's debatable.
KC5CPO
10-31-2004, 12:47 AM
It's funny how just days before the election, people want to blame Dubya for everything from their toothache, to BPL. Wake up and smell the coffee people! It's not the president's fault that this is happening... It's the ARRL. If the League was doing the job they are supposed to be doing, representing the ham community in a positive light to the public and elected officials, we wouldn't be taliking about BPL now. Face it, the ARRL dropped the ball big time here. The ARRL is too busy thinking of ways to dum down the system to make it 'easier' for people to get into ham radio. No wonder the FCC sees us as little more than knitters or underwater basket weavers... Just Hobbiests, I think they called us, serving no real purpose. As far as the elections are concerned, Tuesday both myself and my ham wife are going to the poles to vote. GO DUBYA!
[quote=KC5CPO,Oct. 29 2004,18:47]It's funny how just days before the election, people want to blame Dubya for everything from their toothache, to BPL. Wake up and smell the coffee people! It's not the president's fault that this is happening... It's the ARRL. If the League was doing the job they are supposed to be doing, representing the ham community in a positive light to the public and elected officials, we wouldn't be taliking about BPL now. Face it, the ARRL dropped the ball big time here. The ARRL is too busy thinking of ways to dum down the system to make it 'easier' for people to get into ham radio. No wonder the FCC sees us as little more than knitters or underwater basket weavers... Just Hobbiests, I think they called us, serving no real purpose. As far as the elections are concerned, Tuesday both myself and my ham wife are going to the poles to vote. GO DUBYA!
Tell me about it. #I was listening to talk radio the other morning. #It is a new Liberal station called "Air America". #They were interviewing some guy about tainted meat getting into the American food chain due to a lax Department of Agriculture. #The MC asked well how do we correct this situation and the guests answer was incredible and I quote "The first thing we got to do is vote George Bush out of office". #I was incredulous to say the least.
I figured they would next blame Bush for the change of seasons and the leaves falling off the trees, but give Kerry credit for the wonderful fall colors. I am learning how to hate politics.
K2WH
K7JAZ
10-31-2004, 01:05 AM
That's right Dave, it's the ARRL's fault....I'm sure it's their fault too that there will no Social Security left for you when you retire, heck I'll bet the whole war in Iraq is their fault too, right?
Vote for whoever you want to, that's our right. By the way, I don't see ARRL listed in your club affiliations in your signature...how much did YOU do to fight BPL? I'm thinking the ARRL probably did a bit more.
I'm amazed...I don't agree with everything the ARRL does either, but it's still the most powerful organization we've got, who else is doing a better job? Besides, there are some things the government is just not going to do or give up, no matter who fights for it or who's president. Remember years ago when President Carter saw a UFO and they wouldn't even open the records for him. Years later another President said he was going to disclose to the public all the information on UFO's. He couldn't get near the records either. Whether you believe in UFO's or not isn't the point, the point is, there are agencies operating in the government that no one has control over, not the ARRL or even the President. They will do what they want, for "national security".
I'm not saying to vote for Bush, Kerry, or Nader. Just that we can control some things, some we can't. But I will say I don't like the way things have been going the last few years, not at all.
Quote[/b] (w6em @ Oct. 30 2004,17:29)]
I can see it now: #Hackers with portable gear to intercept BPL-radiated signals and decipher credit card information, medical records, and goodness knows what else. #Kind of like the characters that drive around in search of a wireless phone cradle to connect to. #Only, much simpler. #And, then there are the really stupid utilities that claim to want to use BPL for control of their distribution lines. #Now, that would be really laughable to watch a hacker shut down half a city using BPL for SCADA communications.
It's somewhat laughable. #No, more like pathetically laughable.
73,
Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL.[/QUOTE]
Outside of the interference problem, is the security issue.
I use 801 wireless at home. #I do networking for a living, so I know to use encyption, and mac address security, and a few other tricks. But most people don't. #It isn't that easy for the average person to setup.
Lucky for those folks, the current wireless in the home doesn't reach much beyond the boundary of your property. #So your risk is at least somewhat low.
BPL signals will transmit the data of users in a very large area. #And worst, even using encrytion between my laptop and wireless router would be defeated from my router through the BPL. #
That's right, credit card numbers, login and password to your bank account, and every other thing personal to you, is intercepted by anyone in a car with the right gear, within a mile of your home.
This isn't just about hams, it is about everyone that uses a computer on the internet.
I don't go into this subject much here, because it is covered elsewhere in computer forums, where the people in the know, also agree that BPL is a horrible technology.
Ham radio's fight against BPL is yet another "Public Service" that the public doesn't even understand.
Yes, the FCC's dream is simple. #Internet access on every AC outlet, and your personal information on every hackers computer that drives close to your home.
Being a ham, and a network professional gives me twice the headache as to the total lack of responsible government representation.
I get so upset by this stupidity, that I sometimes just want to ignore it. But all of the comments from my fellow hams keep my hopes up, and get me motivated for the fight. #You too Chip.
Off subject, Osama can kiss my rosy red as.... Bush or Kerry, you are going down OBL. #Count on it.
A day of joy that will be, indeed.
So count the camels, and find a new cave, but we are coming for you. #
Today, tomorrow, and everyday after, we are coming for you. #When my boy hits military age, he's coming for you. #Talk your BS about how we are guilty, but the giant is awake, and coming for you.
You can try to play with our elections, but this isn't Spain. No matter who wins, we are coming for you. No matter what, the USA will never rest until you go down.
You will pay the price for the 3000+ brothers and sisters that you killed, you bastard.
73, #W6NJ # #
K7JAZ
10-31-2004, 01:26 AM
Quote[/b] (W6NJ @ Oct. 30 2004,18:17)]
Osama can kiss my rosy red as.... Bush or Kerry, you are going down..
I'll bet it's safe to say that's one thing we can all agree on.
kc2kvz
10-31-2004, 01:51 AM
Quote[/b] ]It's the ARRL. If the League was doing the job they are supposed to be doing, representing the ham community in a positive light to the public and elected officials, we wouldn't be taliking about BPL now. Face it, the ARRL dropped the ball big time here. The ARRL is too busy thinking of ways to dum down the system to make it 'easier' for people to get into ham radio. No wonder the FCC sees us as little more than knitters or underwater basket weavers... Just Hobbiests, I think they called us, serving no real purpose.
Are YOU a member of the ARRL?
Just curious
73 de KC2KVZ
Quote[/b] (K7JAZ @ Oct. 30 2004,18:26)]Quote[/b] (W6NJ @ Oct. 30 2004,18:17)]
Osama can kiss my rosy red as.... Bush or Kerry, you are going down..
I'll bet it's safe to say that's one thing we can all agree on.
Yes, the one thing that pulls America together.
That pitiful SOB. #The one that pulls our polarized society together.
Probaly not what OBL wants, but that is what he does.
He sure isn't very good at tactics.
Everytime he opens that camel sewer on his face, he unites America.
Go figure. #He must beleive that we think like the sub-human ass that he is.
Osama, we ARE coming for you. #Just a matter of time.
W6NJ
KE4MOB
10-31-2004, 02:05 AM
Actually, I can envision a scenario where Kerry might actually cause more BPL rather than less.
It's well known about his environmentalist tendencies. I could see a Kerry administration saddling power companies with a huge financial burden due to new environmental controls. Power rates are about as high as they can be right now, so how are the power companies going to still turn a profit?? Lease their lines to BPL providers!!!
AB8RU
10-31-2004, 03:16 AM
You think that maybe they ought to have Radio Engineers for the FCC Board ? maybe we can get things done right 4 a change http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
w5hze
10-31-2004, 03:24 AM
The FCC was well staffed with good engineers once upon a time- but they are mostly gone now. #They had an annoying habit of ruining perfectly good fantasies with tiresome facts . . . #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
73 . . . Ron WB5HZE
Quote[/b] (WB5HZE @ Oct. 30 2004,20:24)]The FCC was well staffed with good engineers once upon a time- but they are mostly gone now. #They had an annoying habit of ruining perfectly good fantasies with tiresome facts . . . #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
73 . . . Ron WB5HZE
Not just the FCC.
Corporate America.
The "devil in the details" quote is a sure bet for early retirement.
Wonder when Icom will have the tech center in India?
Now we sell out America's technology. Soon it will be too late.
Time to vote next Tuesday. Third world is a reality here soon.
Dumbing down ham radio was the begining of dumbing down the USA.
We will be the third world, if this continues.
W6NJ
I guess this finally answers the 'are we a service or a hobby' question, huh...
73 John K7FD
w0cbf
10-31-2004, 08:47 AM
"We similarly do not find that Amateur Radio frequencies warrant the
special protection afforded frequencies reserved for international
aeronautical and maritime safety operations," the Commission said. "While
we recognize that amateurs may on occasion assist in providing emergency
communications," the FCC added. It described typical amateur operations as
"routine communications and hobby activities."
Well I guess that lets us know where we stand with the FCC (if we didn't before). Remember its all about the $$$ and ham radio does not bring any $$$ to the FCC table. We can forget about the "good old days" for those of us that live near a major line (me). What's the address of eBay???
KF7CG
10-31-2004, 12:01 PM
I am afraid that on the service versus hobby side we were always a hobby. We were perceived to be a hobby of special benefit to the community, a status that is now perceived as untrue from lack of understanding.
Other great hobbies include, search and rescue groups. They can perform great public service in the wilder areas of the country but it is a hobby. That is what the search and rescue people that I knew told me. In the West, they were one of the largest groups to be added to Amateur radio when the no-code tech came through.
They are a hobby for the same reasons we are a hobby. They don't get paid to train, the don't get paid to work, they are mostly responsible for the cost of their own equipment. Finally and most important they are not required to serve when the need arises. The are quite willing but have no reason to do so other than wanting to.
Amateur radio operators don't have to serve in emergencies, some would say we only get in the way anyway. We don't get paid. We mostly pay for our own equipment. We don't get paid to train. We serve because we want to.
Yes, we and many other valuable community services are hobbies.
Bicycle riding is a hobby and the governments will go to great lengths to produce special trails and roads for bycyclists, but they won't even protect Amateur frequencies.
The next really big charitable event communications provision should be ignored in a BPL out. We can't ignore the real stuff - fires, hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, and other things that threaten life and limb. Walkathons, bikathons, and other hobby events are fair targets.
If our spectrum, all of it, does not rate protection; why should we go out of our way to support some other hobby.
This idea would also provide a good test of our real value, if the community were to function well without our aid, we would then know that our hobby meant as much to the community as needlepoint.
KB1SF
10-31-2004, 12:23 PM
BPL is DOA, folks, in spite of what our overpaid government hacks would have us believe. #
As the old saying goes, “You can put lipstick on a pig, but, in the end, you still have a pig”. #And, BPL is nothing more than Mr. Powell’s (and “Dubya’s) dressed up pig. #
Besides, all the notching and other measures BPL providers are going to have to install on their systems if they want to go this route, it seems to me the power companies are going to have to FIRST figure out how to silence all their own QRM from power line noise (loose clevis joints and hardware) that are endemic to most power grids in the USA.
For example, right now, my own “noise floor” here (thanks to my friendly power company) is sometimes well over S-9+ of pure, unadulterated, broadband noise from HF right through VHF. #Would someone please explain to me how a workable BPL signal is going to get through THAT?
Next, and as others have already pointed out, once someone figures out how to tap into BPL Internet services “for free” and, thereby gains “unauthorized” access to all that sensitive information flowing over it, it will be all over, folks. #Would YOU pay real money for such a service?
As far as politics is concerned, and as I have said before, we don’t get the government we deserve, we get the government we allow. #For too many years, the “Republicrats” have passed themselves off as the “only” choices, and, like sheep, we’ve blindly followed. #
While it’s always nice to vote for a “winner”, I think we’ve sold ourselves down the river as a result. #The unadulterated arrogance of Powell Jr. and his dimwit lawyer hacks at the FCC on this BPL issue should be a wakeup call to us all. #However, a simple change of administrations from Republican to Democrat isn’t going to give us back the many freedoms we’ve lost as a result of our (so-called) “two party” system.
Folks, there ARE alternatives to JFK and GWB for those who want to do their homework. #We don’t need to settle for “the lesser of two evils” this time around, particularly when the Republicans and Democrats are simply two factions of the same country club.
Do your homework and make your vote count! #It’s high time we threw the bastards out….ALL of them!
73,
Keith
KB1SF
Quote[/b] (w0cbf @ Oct. 31 2004,01:47)]"We similarly do not find that Amateur Radio frequencies warrant the
special protection afforded frequencies reserved for international
aeronautical and maritime safety operations," the Commission said. "While
we recognize that amateurs may on occasion assist in providing emergency
communications," the FCC added. It described typical amateur operations as
"routine communications and hobby activities."
Well I guess that lets us know where we stand with the FCC (if we didn't before). Remember its all about the $$$ and ham radio does not bring any $$$ to the FCC table. We can forget about the "good old days" for those of us that live near a major line (me). What's the address of eBay???
Wow. Lots of misunderstanding and hyperbole, IMO. Incredible digressions--all irrelevant and wrong--to politics; technical competency of the FCC; etc, again IMO.
The R&O details modifications to Part 15. It adds location and frequency restrictions to assure that services so licensed can continue to enjoy said benefits as described in their definition.
There is nothing in how the amateur radio service is defined--by US law--that requires prescriptive (or proscriptive) restrictions in order for that definition to be maintained with respect to BPL.
Period.
Essentially, there is nothing in the R&O that changes Part 15 with respect to Access BPL and ham radio.
It provides a clear path towards identifying and dealing with harmful interference cases, if they arise.
The FCC, wisely, recognizes that a vast amount of HF ham radio is "routine" and "hobbyist", neither of which constitutes the mission of the amateur radio service.
If you go scouting out BPL, then in the sense that your efforts are neither 'routine' nor 'hobbyist' but more 'activist', you will also not be making a case for the compromise of the mission of the amateur radio service.
For those who seek legal remedies, the only one that appears to me--IMO- is to attempt to change the definition of the amateur radio service. I think, however, the likelihood of this is extraordinarily low.
Work with the Access BPL folks. There is no reason not to.
73,
Chip N1IR
W1CAR
10-31-2004, 12:36 PM
In order for BPL to become viable, don't they have to develop a group of consumers that actually use the service? Or is it just going to exist everywhere regardless if there are any BPL customers?
I have yet to see a commercial on TV advertising BPL service.
All of the information about problem and interference that BPL causes should be given to the competition: Cable and DSL providers... and Satellite Broadband. I see commercials every day about "why cable is better than Dish Network" and "why Direct TV is a better choice than cable TV"... maybe the ticket is to get these internet providers to use that information against the BPL service providers as a means of fighting off competition.
The last thing the Cable and DSL broadband giants want is more competition... and I believe the information we've got on BPL could be useful to them; to prove their internet services a better choice.
I have Starband here.. a broadband satellite internet service because I cannot get DSL or Cable in the boondocks.
Is this even a good idea? or am I smoking crack...?
Quote[/b] (n1ir @ Oct. 31 2004,05:29)][quote=w0cbf,Oct. 31 2004,01:47]"We similarly do not find that Amateur Radio frequencies warrant the
special protection afforded frequencies reserved for international
aeronautical and maritime safety operations," the Commission said. "While
we recognize that amateurs may on occasion assist in providing emergency
communications," the FCC added. It described typical amateur operations as
"routine communications and hobby activities."
Where the ARRL, CQ, and other radio amateur efforts failed--and they have failed, based upon the R&O, IMO, is:
1) failure to identify the mission of the amateur radio service and to detail the present implementation of said service with respect to it ;
2)failure to demonstrate that said mission will be compromised by the use of Access BPL or other part 15 devices;
3) incorrect emphasis on potential compromise to what the FCC calls 'routine' and/ or 'hobbyist' communications;
4)apparently incorrect procedural methods for detailing alleged harmful interference.
It was a real mistake, IMO, for the ARRL to show a world map to demonstrate how more 'difficult' it will be to work DX under BPL.
I repeat, that IMO, the ARRL's BPL Fund efforts, or any other activist ham radio approaches, have not had any impact in this R&O.
Hams do fine with emergency comms at VHF and higher; the need for such on HF is extremely limited these days, IMO. No one has demonstrated compromise to that ability, BTW and IMO.
73,
Chip N1IR
k2lck
10-31-2004, 01:42 PM
Guess we have figured out that the FCC is a political organization responding to a campaign contribution by now, haven't we? The politican partys have sold everything but our souls for campaign contributions... sigh....
Quote[/b] (W1CAR @ Oct. 30 2004,06:36)]In order for BPL to become viable, don't they have to develop a group of consumers that actually use the service? #Or is it just going to exist everywhere regardless if there are any BPL customers? #
I have yet to see a commercial on TV advertising BPL service.
All of the information about problem and interference that BPL causes should be given to the competition: #Cable and DSL providers... and Satellite Broadband. #I see commercials every day about "why cable is better than Dish Network" and "why Direct TV is a better choice than cable TV"... maybe the ticket is to get these internet providers to use that information against the BPL service providers as a means of fighting off competition. #
The last thing the Cable and DSL broadband giants want is more competition... and I believe the information we've got on BPL could be useful to them; to prove their internet services a better choice. #
I have Starband here.. #a broadband satellite internet service because I cannot get DSL or Cable in the boondocks. #
Is this even a good idea? #or am I smoking crack...?
This ham brings up a good point. The utilities currently (no pun intended) have power AVAILABLE on their lines. Isn't it probable that BPL could be injected into the lines with or without subscribers, there for the taking when a subscriber requests the service.
Therefore, it is possible to have BPL interference in your neighborhood without any actual subscribers.
K2WH
Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Oct. 31 2004,06:46)]Isn't it probable that BPL could be injected into the lines with or without subscribers, there for the taking when a subscriber requests the service.
Therefore, it is possible to have BPL interference in your neighborhood without any actual subscribers.
K2WH
Yes, BPL presence is possible and very likely without customers, since some very stupid utility folks have expressed a desire to the commission that they want to use BPL for distribution system control and operation. #Thus, they allege to be their own customer, whether or not any paying customers subscribe.
As I've said before, and offered in commentary to the NOI, such intentions are flawed, since BPL operation depends upon continuity of the distribution lines. #Hence, for short circuits, opens, etc., BPL won't be there for utilities to use to open or close switches, reclosers, and circuit breakers or monitor system voltage or power flow and most importantly, to switch out faulted sections and restore power to as many customers as possible remotely. #Competent utility operators employ other communication means such as battery-backed radio and telco interface equipment that are almost always independent of power line continuity, power availability, and operational configuration. #This is done to allow control and status when the system is damaged and off line.
Again, the commission staff demonstrated its prejudice and ignorance in acceptance of technically-flawed statements as fact to support the necessity of BPL in spite of comments to the contrary.
Lee
W6EM
k1ltj
10-31-2004, 03:15 PM
Quote[/b] (WB5HZE @ Oct. 30 2004,16:28)]I doubt that a change of administration will have any effect on the BPL issue- it's not likely to warrant a President's personal attention unless BPL begins to interfere with the average Joe's home entertainment system on a wholesale basis, or unless it interferes with the comms from Air Force One.
But let's say that it does catch the next President's eye: #let's see, one candidate will put in on the back burner for four years while he deals with other matters more dear to his heart, the other will sit on the fence for four years while he decides which side of the BPL issue is politically safe . . . someone tell me, is there any candidate out there who is likely to do something for us? #Didn't think so.
73 . . . Ron WB5HZE
A new administration means a new FCC chairman. Hopefully it may also mean that 'we the people' will also have some small level of influence in Washington. Something we don’t have now. Remember when the government gave some consideration to the people, the environment, and business, instead of just business and big money interests? We need a government that will not turn a deaf ear. I choose to be a bit less cynical, and see hope here. You can choose to talk about it, or do something about it.
Quote[/b] (k1ltj @ Oct. 31 2004,08:15)]A new administration means a new FCC chairman...
What?
Firstly, what does the FCC have to do with the Chairman as an individual? The Chairman implements; he does not dictate. This is an FCC action, not one by a sole individual. This was NOT Michael Powell's R&O; it's the FCC's R&O.
Secondly, are you aware that it was President Clinton's administration that brought Mr. Powell to the FCC? Before that, he did admirable public service at the Pentagon. Mr. Powell is a great public servant; he deserves better than what he has been receiving here (as I post via my Wi-Fi link--which didn't exist pre-Powell).
I have never, ever, seen anything done under Mr. Powell's chairmanship that qualifies as partisan politics. What Mr. Powell IS doing is implementing the FCC's vision for future telecom.
It is a tragedy that some hams are focusing on Mr. Powell as the 'cause' of their distaste for Access BPL. Do you appreciate how such attitudes erode our credibility as a public service? That is my opinion, and you should consider whether I am unique in that view.
Regards,
Chip N1IR
w5hze
10-31-2004, 03:34 PM
Hey K1TJ, please don't take my comment out of context. #I'll vote, & I'll place my vote based on matters more important- frankly speaking- than BPL.
There's no cynicism in pointing out that BPL is not an important issue for ANY candidate now- nor will it be when the next President is in office, unless BPL causes problems for the general public. #That's just a statement of fact, uncomfortable as it might be.
I'd love to see a change in leadership at the FCC. #But I'm sure as hell not going to waste my vote by voting solely on the (nebulous) hope that the next appointee will be a better leader than Powell. #I'm a bit more concerned about seeing OBL hung by the neck until dead, plus some related issues.
Ron WB5HZE
Quote[/b] (WB5HZE @ Oct. 31 2004,08:34)]I'm a bit more concerned about seeing OBL hung by the neck until dead, plus some related issues.
Ron WB5HZE
Same here.... That's why I'm going to vote for the candidate that hasn't received any Bin Laden family money to fund his business interests; nor placed the Bin Laden family members and friends on a plane to go home to Saudi Arabia on 9/13/01.
Lee
W6EM
n0xmz
10-31-2004, 06:27 PM
Well, now we see what the FCC really thinks of us hams. In one particular newsgroup, someone suggested that the ARRL just sue the FCC in court the same way other special-interest groups sue the governement when they aren't happy with the way an agency rules. Are they afraid of the FCC disbanding our service?
As for the BUSH vs. KERRY controversy here, let me make one thing very clear: Kerry is one of the most liberal democrats in the senate. Kerry coming out against BPL is HIGHLY UNLIKELY. BPL make "promises" that appeal to any politician, especially liberals who whine about "the digital divide" (uh hum.. remember Al Gore?). Bush (who I've already voted for and whole-heartedly support) doesn't know anything about radio engineering. All he can do is listen to Powell make his recommendations and if they sound good - so be it. Would YOU act any differently if YOU were president and knew nothing about radio electronics? Powell, on the other hand, is not as innocent. It looks like he just wants to advance his political career to follow in his dad's footsteps (except for the military service). Anything that will make him popular with the masses. Appearently he either knows nothing of radio signal propogation or he does know BPL is a failure waiting to happen but doesn't care because for now he can make himself look good by promising "high speed Internet at every electrical outlet".
Regardless of how you vote Nov. 2 (if you haven't already), it's not going to make a bit of difference for ham radio or BPL. Vote your conciense. We've got Bin Laden threatening us again along with other lunatics that are already on oour soil. We need to be looking for ways to help the Feds nab these sh*th**ds who want to kill us. We need a leader who is capable of fighting this war on terror with a vengeance. We need BUSH!
BPL is a failed technology and the companies that have tried it already know that. That's why they got out of the biz. BPL will die because of it's own poor technology. And besides, wireless Internet is the wave of the future, not some unshielded wire that needs a repeater every thousand feet.
I still like to think BPL will fail on its own shortcomings.
I live in a fairly rural area, 40 miles west of NYC. #Even though I am in NJ, I live on a mountain top. #I would say there are about 200 homes here and we are surrounded by 50,000 acres of forest.
Anyone on the internet around here has high speed wideband cable service along with TV. #I can see BPL invading if after a survey by the utility indicated sufficient subscribers to make it profitable. #If not enough subscribers sign on, then BPL will not invade. #However, if the utility just proceeds to install BPL services on their lines with or without subscribers, then I am afraid we will be forced to move to VHF or UHF if we wish to continue as hams.
My antenna, a simple dipole strung in the trees here, is only about 10-15 feet from the 4160 volt utility lines (safely). #I could not imagine what the interference would be like. #It would be possible to move the antenna further away, but from the studies, I don't think I could possibly move it far enough to limit the interference it will receive.
Hopefully, it will be a long time coming and in the interim, other emerging non-polluting technologies will win the day. In addition, I think it would be wise to have available in your possession, some kind of flyer or brochure to place in your neighbors mailboxes detailing the downside of BPL if it happens to come to your town. Maybe ARRL can print something for our use.
K2WH
n7okl
10-31-2004, 07:57 PM
Kerry as come out in favor of BPL at an appearance in AZ.
Still want to see the son of a Bush out of office.......
Mel
N7OKL
K7JAZ
10-31-2004, 08:15 PM
I just find it hard to believe that our entire hi-tech army, complete with "remote viewers", #hasn't been able to find OBL since 9/11, then about a year ago I read a news article where they asked Bush, "What's going on with OBL, do you know where he is?" and Bush responded (according to the article), "I don't know and I don't care". #That one comment really short-circuited my brain where this administration is concerned. #Kerry may not care any more about Amateur Radio and the BPL problem, maybe no President will, but I'd like to see a President who would "care where OBL is".
kb8zuz
10-31-2004, 08:41 PM
I am sorry i can't provide communications during this (power outage, terrist attack or whatever). I am waiting for my BPL to come back up!!!
Quote[/b] (kb8zuz @ Oct. 31 2004,13:41)]I am sorry i can't provide communications during this (power outage, terrist attack or whatever). I am waiting for my BPL to come back up!!!
It may prove especially challenging for you at HF (which is the issue), as you are technician and cannot operate below VHF.
Was that your point?
73,
Chip N1IR
KF7CG
10-31-2004, 09:35 PM
Chip,
It is going to be extremely difficult to peacefully coexist with a BPL deployment. There is at least one ingress interference study the shows normal home operation at HF by an amateur will knock out BPL for at least a couple of blocks in any direction. I do not know how long the users of BPL will peacefully coexist with individuals that routinely knock out their broadband service.
There is anecdotal evidence that even 4W from a 2 meter handheld will knock out BPL for about a block. This leaves very little useable spectrum if we wish to avoid ingress interference.
The tone of the FCC's footnote to the ARRL was complain and lose, so how long will interruptions be tolerated? I do not believe that peaceful coexistence is possible in the long term and maybe not in the long term.
We must see BPL modified to the point to which it will not interfere or be interfered with. At this point, I do not see an economically viable technology which can do this.
Therefore a turf war with BPL will be inevitable.
N3Tvv
10-31-2004, 09:57 PM
First of all, they only have to notch their Precious Bpl Signals 10 db on Hf and 20 on Vhf , While we "the Hobbiest" Have to notch our Hf signals 20 db on Hf and 42 on Vhf , THIS IS BULL !!!!
The Fcc ,should start paying more attention to the people who already use all of the frequencies , where Bpl is going to be Interefering and NOT The almighty $$$$ .:angry:
God Forbid, anyone in the nieghborhood ,gets knocked off the internet ,because , the first person they would blame is the ham radio operator down the street,Even if we arn't Home.
As far as trying to eliminate interference, it's fiesably impossible, it's always going to interefere with something no matter how much notching and filtering they do.
This is why all of the other countries that tryed it ,shot BPL down, it's a Problem waiting to happen . I'm also, not looking forward to having my toaster and all of my appliances radiate rf in my House.
What about the amount of Rf exposure, we're going to get with all of this, with ever Wire in our houses radiating RF.
Would be about the same as going in my attic and calling cq 20 cq 20 , on my indoor dipole?
What about people with pace makers, this rf Wouldn't or couldn't be good for them either.
I'm not claiming to Be the Sharpest Crayon in the Box ,by Any means,But,The FCC ,should Get their Heads out of their Asses and Listen to what everyone else,yes,this includes other countries too,about this subject rather then, hearing the ca ching ca ching of the money falling into their pockets.
A Very Upset Amateur
Eric T Bott
N3TVV
Common Sense Applies to Everything Do .
Money only applies to things we want............E.t.B
PART 97_AMATEUR RADIO SERVICE--
Table of Contents Subpart A_General Provisions
Sec. 97.1 Basis and purpose. The rules and regulations in this part are designed to provide an amateur radio service having a fundamental purpose as expressed in the following principles:
(a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect to providing emergency communications.
How can this be fulfilled if the HF bands are unusable by mobile stations involved in RACES or ARES activities and emergency regional and international nets (unless all overhead power lines carrying BPL within miles are de-energized)?
(b) Continuation and extension of the amateur's proven ability to contribute to the advancement of the radio art.
We can't contribute to the advancement of the radio art without the ability to use and test equipment on a wide range of frequencies. #And, yes, that includes novel antenna designs on HF.
© Encouragement and improvement of the amateur service through rules which provide for advancing skills in both the communication and technical phases of the art.
Again, same as (b) comments above. #We can't meet this purpose unless HF frequency bands are usable, which they wouldn't be if BPL is widely deployed.
(d) Expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts.
Although many today start with VHF and above privileges, without the HF bands, we will not be able to attract nearly as many people to amateur radio.
(e) Continuation and extension of the amateur's unique ability to enhance international goodwill.
This is one we most certainly will fail to meet if BPL is implemented, since most DX is weak signal. #And, being unable to meet this purpose falls within the present Administration's practice (and apparent goal) of global isolationism and arrogance.
Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL
W9JOL
10-31-2004, 11:28 PM
Quote[/b] (n1ir @ Oct. 31 2004,14:18)]Quote[/b] (kb8zuz @ Oct. 31 2004,13:41)]I am sorry i can't provide communications during this (power outage, terrist attack or whatever). I am waiting for my BPL to come back up!!!
It may prove especially challenging for you at HF (which is the issue), as you are technician and cannot operate below VHF.
Was that your point?
73,
Chip N1IR
Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] (kb8zuz @ Oct. 31 2004,13:41)]I am sorry i can't provide communications during this (power outage, terrist attack or whatever). I am waiting for my BPL to come back up!!!
It may prove especially challenging for you at HF (which is the issue), as you are technician and cannot operate below VHF.
Was that your point?
73,
Chip N1IR
Whether or not he's a Tech has no bearing on this. Unless, of course, you think Tech's are somehow less worthy than you.
Was that YOUR point?
the government always usurpts science in any form to futher the encroachment of their views, amateurs taught how to use radio, now radio in the form of 911, computers, and other services will be used to control the masses, we call that progress, progress and be damned. Was anybody really surprised with the outcome of BPL? Don't politicise, it's just human nature. It's really just about one thing in the end.....CONTROL. 73's and get ready for rest of the story.
Quote[/b] (W9JOL @ Oct. 31 2004,16:28)]Quote[/b] (n1ir @ Oct. 31 2004,14:18)]Quote[/b] (kb8zuz @ Oct. 31 2004,13:41)]I am sorry i can't provide communications during this (power outage, terrist attack or whatever). I am waiting for my BPL to come back up!!!
It may prove especially challenging for you at HF (which is the issue), as you are technician and cannot operate below VHF.
Was that your point?
73,
Chip N1IR
Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] (kb8zuz @ Oct. 31 2004,13:41)]I am sorry i can't provide communications during this (power outage, terrist attack or whatever). I am waiting for my BPL to come back up!!!
It may prove especially challenging for you at HF (which is the issue), as you are technician and cannot operate below VHF.
Was that your point?
73,
Chip N1IR
Whether or not he's a Tech has no bearing on this. #Unless, of course, you think Tech's are somehow less worthy than you.
Was that YOUR point?
No; my point is that you can't cry crocodile tears if you don't have eyes.
The 'issue' is HF. Not VHF at 50 megs and up.
73,
Chip N1IR
w5hze
11-01-2004, 12:29 AM
Ahhh . . . Chip . . . Have you actually READ the R&O? #Reason I ask: because if you had, you would surely realize that the frequency range addressed in the R&O- and in the NPRM too, for that matter- includes VHF frequencies (for amateurs, the 6M band).
And the limitation of BPL operations to fundamental frequencies below 80 MHz does not preclude interference above 80 MHz from harmonics or from intermodulation products. #This, BTW, was a potential problem- identified by many commenters (including the NTIA)- that the FCC chose to ignore in the R&O.
Just to set the record straight- BPL has potential impact on the operations of all US amateur licensees, including Technicians.
73 . . . Ron WB5HZE
Quote[/b] (WB5HZE @ Oct. 31 2004,17:29)]Ahhh . . . Chip . . . Have you actually READ the R&O? #Reason I ask: because if you had, you would surely realize that the frequency range addressed in the R&O- and in the NPRM too, for that matter- includes VHF frequencies (for amateurs, the 6M band).
And the limitation of BPL operations to fundamental frequencies below 80 MHz does not preclude interference above 80 MHz from harmonics or from intermodulation products. #This, BTW, was a potential problem- identified by many commenters (including the NTIA)- that the FCC chose to ignore in the R&O.
Just to set the record straight- BPL has potential impact on the operations of all US amateur licensees, including Technicians.
73 . . . Ron WB5HZE
Ahhh.. Ron.
The issue, if at all, is HF.
I have read it thrice.
73,
Chip N1IR
Quote[/b] (N3Tvv @ Oct. 31 2004,14:57)]God Forbid, anyone in the nieghborhood ,gets knocked off the internet ,because , the first person they would blame is the ham radio operator down the street,Even if we arn't Home.
I seem to recall that this was a common fear with respect to TVI in the 60's and 70's....
I actually remember that I used to get blamed for TVI to someone's tube about 1/4 a mile away (shades of BPL fears!) Put a filter in and tested it with the person. No problem. She then started a day later complaining that I didn't fix the problem--fine, except I was watching TV (myself) or playing guitar or something at the time. This went on for months, and every time I was not on the air.
The last time she called my mom answered; and forwarded the complainer my phone number at college (25 miles away)--I had just talked to my mom a second earlier.
That, as they say, was that:-)
Still, ham radio survived, and TV didn't die an economic death either.
73,
Chip N1IR
you dont understand do you sonny, it's not about your hf or your batf or ........ let me not be obscure or/obtuse we are losing the rights God gave us and we are not fighting back effectivley (my spelling sucks) you think because I have a tech. standing that I don't know what I am talking about! I have talked to almost every nation on this earth with the equipment I have built or begged borrowed and phinnaggled for do not judge people or their abilities on a license granted by the govenment that you yourself keep bitchin' about....goodness gracious don't get trapped into being a hall monitor for anyone, just keep talking on your radio aND do not be afraid. bpl won't last long anyway, it wont work right...tech,my ass, I have been building antennas some 35 years I am 49 now..... back to the original topic please!
w5hze
11-01-2004, 02:47 AM
Chip, your reply says it all. #Thanks for participating in the discussion.
Anyone else who thinks that the potential for BPL interference is limited to HF alone should take a look at the NPRM and the R&O, and for a deeper understanding should read some of the more substantial comments that were filed during the proceedings as well as the NTIA study. #Facts can ruin perfectly good assumptions.
Ron WB5HZE
k1ltj
11-01-2004, 02:52 AM
Quote[/b] (WB5HZE @ Oct. 31 2004,10:34)]Hey K1TJ, please don't take my comment out of context. #I'll vote, & I'll place my vote based on matters more important- frankly speaking- than BPL.
There's no cynicism in pointing out that BPL is not an important issue for ANY candidate now- nor will it be when the next President is in office, unless BPL causes problems for the general public. #That's just a statement of fact, uncomfortable as it might be.
I'd love to see a change in leadership at the FCC. #But I'm sure as hell not going to waste my vote by voting solely on the (nebulous) hope that the next appointee will be a better leader than Powell. #I'm a bit more concerned about seeing OBL hung by the neck until dead, plus some related issues.
Ron WB5HZE
Of course, you are completely correct Ron. This issue is insignificant compared to the other issues you raise. I agree with you, it's unbelievable, and unforgivable that OBL is still on the loose. I think we can accomplish both tasks on election day, BPL and OBL with one vote.
Quote[/b] (ai4cb @ Oct. 31 2004,17:31)]So suing anyone is not going to work any better than the ARRL strategy of sending mobiles out to seek out interference.
On the other hand, there is nothing in the US Code that mandates the existance of the amateur radio service. It exists only in the FCC regulations, and the FCC has the authority to change regulations however it sees fit to meet the "public interest, convenience or necessity". It could decide for example that hams are inconvenient or unnecessary, and that it's in the public interest to end ham radio. There'd be an uproar of course but in the end it wouldn't matter.
I don't think you are an attorney. #And, neither am I, so I'll offer my two cents.
First off, you need to read the FCC's practice and procedure at 47CFR 1.XXXX, et. al. #What the FCC produces must be validly promulgated in accordance with Part 1. #So, they just can't delete the amateur radio service. #At least, not without lots of paper filings and commentary. #And, an inevitable battle of all battles in federal court.
Also, instead of just reciting US Code which created the FCC, you might want to think more globally about a document called the US Constitution and its Amendments. #Especially Amendment No. 14, which provides for equal protection under law. #For instance, here's a hypothetical or two: Are all radio services with a stated purpose to perform part or all of their functions in the interest of public safety and emergency communications, including the amateur radio service, provided substantially equivalent protection from predicted interference by BPL unintended radiation? #Are federal government frequency assignments for non-public safety uses afforded more protection than corresponding local and state government frequency assignments used for public safety and emergency purposes? #Are international aircraft, maritime and shortwave broadcast frequency bands that are designated by international treaty all protected to the same extent?
A Petition for Reconsideration would be, IMO, a waste of time, unless it is submitted as part of a lawsuit. #In view of the potentially serious compromise to emergency and public safety communications, a lawsuit should be filed post haste with the United States Court of Appeals to request that the Report and Order be set aside.
Just my 2 cents, and not legal advice, of course. :-)
Quote[/b] (WB5HZE @ Oct. 31 2004,19:47)]Chip, your reply says it all. #Thanks for participating in the discussion....
#Facts can ruin perfectly good assumptions.
Ron WB5HZE
You are welcome, and we agree about FACTS yet again.
If hams generate hyperbole and fear in this Access BPL rollout, it will only be the hams who will be "marginalized". That is absolutely the wrong approach.
But perhaps it doesn't matter: there is no one to reign in the activists.
73,
Chip N1IR
Quote[/b] (ke7auw @ Oct. 31 2004,19:19)]you dont understand do you sonny, it's not about your hf or your batf or ........ let me not be obscure or/obtuse we are losing the rights God gave us and we are not fighting back effectivley (my spelling sucks) you think because I have a tech. standing that I don't know what I am talking about! # I have talked to almost every nation on this earth with the equipment I have built or begged borrowed and phinnaggled for do not judge people or their abilities on a license granted by the govenment that you yourself keep bitchin' about....goodness gracious don't get trapped into being a hall monitor for anyone, just keep talking on your radio aND do not be afraid. # bpl won't last long anyway, it wont work right...tech,my ass, I have been building antennas some 35 years I am 49 now..... back to the original topic please!
I presume you are responding to me, but it's not entirely clear.
I believe I am a bit older than you, so 'sonny ' doesn't work.
I have no interest in judging you. I do have an interest in pointing out that your statements about being incapable of doing emergency communications, because of Access BPL, are without merit, IMO, based upon the restrictions imposed via your license class. If Access BPL is a problem at all, it is not a VHF one at 50 MHz, again my opinion based upon the facts and the R&O.
Could you kindly provide some info on previous emergency ham communications you have provided, and why that could not be executed moving forward, because of Access BPL?
Also, I am not aware that God has provided us any rights with respect to the RF spectrum.
Finally, I am puzzled how you have managed to talk with every nation on earth to date. How is this possible on 6M and up, or are we discussing another telecom medium, such as ..cell phones or VoIP?
I believe, at least at one time, I talked to every nation on earth...it's called #1 DXCC Honor Roll. Not bragging; just providing you a basis for my information/experience.
Also, I have antenna experience: it appears that from an age; DX; and antenna viewpoint we have much in common, based upon your assertions.
73,
Chip N1IR
touche' you are experienced and you are not jimi' hendrix 27.215 am 27.385 lsb and on and on and on.....and around the world... where have you been? I can talk anywhere I want to.and with 20 watts! you are lost you do not know what's go'in on for the last 30 years
Quote[/b] (n1ir @ Nov. 01 2004,02:05)]I do have an interest in pointing out that your statements about being incapable of doing emergency communications....
My apologies David;
I should have included the phrase 'by inference' here.
73,
Chip N1IR
Quote[/b] (ke7auw @ Nov. 01 2004,02:19)]touche' you are experienced and you are not jimi' hendrix 27.215 am 27.385 lsb and on and on and on.....and around the world... where have you been? #I can talk anywhere I want to.and with 20 watts! you are lost you do not know what's go'in on for the last 30 years
David,
Are you saying that you have and continue to operate illegally as a CB'er? These are not ham frequencies...
Please clarify.
Also, I sound much more like SRV, Danny Gatton, and Roy Buchanan these days than Jimi (RIP). I've been playing for almost 40 years and have the calluses to prove it:-)
73,
Chip N1IR
As usual, the FCC is all it's ignorant and assinine wisdom!
Yeah, relocate your tower and antenna further away from the RFI source rather than fix the RFI source as is required by law! That should work!
Write letters to your congressmen, senators, etc. asked that Powell be removed and that BPL be ceased immediately. That is what I am doing.
Quote[/b] (KB1LQC @ Oct. 30 2004,15:24)]Im not sure if this waas already said but I wonder if amatuers have primary or secondary privilages with BPL? #Its probably primary but i just wanna make sure. and also if this is true:
[QUOTE]
"But anyway -- it will be funny to watch when a few 1000sss all start doing 10 meter becons or continous CW near the power lines and completely knock out all BPL through their neighborhood grid... theorectically one guy with a mobile 40 watt 10 meter trans parked under the BPL line could shut off an entire neighborhood..."
[/QOUTE]
then why not have everyone in the arizona area do that all at once for a day and see what happens? #mabye the BPL companies would see that Amatuers have a lot more power than they think?
Would it matter? The FCC could careless about amateur radio. We are a thorn in their side. They don't want to fool with us, and they resent us cutting into there under the table racketeering with the local utilities.
I have never understood the need for BPL when we can access internet via phone lines, cable, satellite and wireless. To me, BPL is a total waste of time. That is, unless the government has other ideas in mind!
Quote[/b] (K7JAZ @ Oct. 30 2004,18:05)]That's right Dave, it's the ARRL's fault....I'm sure it's their fault too that there will no Social Security left for you when you retire, heck I'll bet the whole war in Iraq is their fault too, right?
Vote for whoever you want to, that's our right. #By the way, I don't see ARRL listed in your club affiliations in your signature...how much did YOU do to fight BPL? #I'm thinking the ARRL probably did a bit more.
I'm amazed...I don't agree with everything the ARRL does either, but it's still the most powerful organization we've got, who else is doing a better job? #Besides, there are some things the government is just not going to do or give up, no matter who fights for it or who's president. #Remember years ago when President Carter saw a UFO and they wouldn't even open the records for him. #Years later another President said he was going to disclose to the public all the information on UFO's. #He couldn't get near the records either. #Whether you believe in UFO's or not isn't the point, the point is, there are agencies operating in the government that no one has control over, not the ARRL or even the President. #They will do what they want, for "national security". #
I'm not saying to vote for Bush, Kerry, or Nader. #Just that we can control some things, some we can't. #But I will say I don't like the way things have been going the last few years, not at all.
Get real. Did you really believe social security would be there for you after 8 years of Clinton? All taxes go into one big governmental pot. They all draw from the same pot. So where does anyone leave social security?
Frankly, I would prefer as President Bush recommended, that we take our weekly deductions and invest them ourselves. Knowing the government though, they would tax it before you put it in and when you take it out!
I think the government has other ideas for BPL other then "internet" access.
Quote[/b] (ai4cb @ Nov. 01 2004,05:08)]Quote[/b] (w6em @ Oct. 31 2004,23:05)]What the FCC produces must be validly promulgated in accordance with Part 1. #So, they just can't delete the amateur radio service. #At least, not without lots of paper filings and commentary. #And, an inevitable battle of all battles in federal court.
There was tons of commentary on the proposed BPL rules. Thousands of comments filed. Almost all of them against BPL. In the end it didn't matter. They sided with BPL. So of course they have their procedures but in the end they make whatever decision they want to make. Again, it's not what we consider to be reasonable or necessary or in the public interest, but what THEY consider to be reasonable or necessary or in the public interest.
There's that "... an inevitable battle of all battles in federal court ..." thing again. Again, on what grounds?
As for the 14th Amendment, I don't get your point. Maybe you can quote the paragraph of it that protects ham radio?
Like I said, I'm not an attorney, and obviously you aren't either.
I would suggest that you ask one what 'equal protection' can be applied to.
The FCC has been purchased at the behest of our present administration. #You can see how Dubyah did it in Texas. #Try reading Shrub by Texan Molly Ivins to see how he favored big business interests, especially energy interests, in Texas. #
But, the FCC can still be reeled in. #Expecially with a new Chairman and some challenges to the basis for this order. #Especially its impact on the health and welfare of the public, its inconsistent application of information at hand, and failure to consider the remaining part of an ongoing study which was used as a basis for the Order. #
I've already stated several good reasons. #And, according to law, orders and decisions by agencies like the FCC can be and are challenged in federal court, which is where the challenge belongs.
73, unless you have something more than argument for a response. #You are beginning to sound like another troll.
Lee
W6EM
Quote[/b] (W0LC @ Nov. 01 2004,05:27)]I think the government has other ideas for BPL other then "internet" access.
That's why if its 'deployed' on the electric service supplying my residence, I will add about 3 mH worth of inductance to each incoming leg to stop the signal from 'snooping'.
Lee
W6EM
KE4MOB
11-01-2004, 01:46 PM
Quote[/b] (ai4cb @ Nov. 01 2004,05:08)]Quote[/b] (w6em @ Oct. 31 2004,23:05)]What the FCC produces must be validly promulgated in accordance with Part 1. #So, they just can't delete the amateur radio service. #At least, not without lots of paper filings and commentary. #And, an inevitable battle of all battles in federal court.
There was tons of commentary on the proposed BPL rules. Thousands of comments filed. Almost all of them against BPL. In the end it didn't matter. They sided with BPL. So of course they have their procedures but in the end they make whatever decision they want to make. Again, it's not what we consider to be reasonable or necessary or in the public interest, but what THEY consider to be reasonable or necessary or in the public interest.
There's that "... an inevitable battle of all battles in federal court ..." thing again. Again, on what grounds?
As for the 14th Amendment, I don't get your point. Maybe you can quote the paragraph of it that protects ham radio?
I think that legal challenges won't be on the technical merit, it will be more administrative/procedural. For example:
A) Was the decision to not have Powell recuse himself a correct one?
B) Does the FCC have the authority to "weigh" primary licensee's usage of spectrum against the right of interference prevention/mitigation?
C) Does BPL classify as a Part 15 device?
D) Was parties given enough time to respond to the NPRM?
I think right now that a FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) request would be a good opening start. It might be illustrative to see what the BPL companies were telling the Commissioners behind closed doors...and what kind of discussions went on between the FCC and NTIA. Was the NTIA pressured by the FCC? It would be interesting to see!!!
WA3KYY
11-01-2004, 02:18 PM
Quote[/b] (w6em @ Oct. 30 2004,12:35)]Quote[/b] (NY7Q @ Oct. 30 2004,12:06)]Looks like this administration is bent on ruining not only the government of this great country, but radio as well. We need to vote these rascals out in three days...Powell, in his self assured wisdom, doesn't have a clue..(I am a straight ticket republican for 50 years, #who has seen the light)
Amen. #Same here for 37 years. #Tuesday, I'm making a different choice.
Michael Powell is absolutely daft. #And, so are the staff who have relegated anything but federal,aircraft, and radio telescope frequencies to 'non-essential' licensed services. #There's even a threat of administrative action for (in the FCC's opinion) what are deemed 'frivolous interference complaints.'
Unfortunately it won't make any difference any time soon. The Commissioners are on 5 year appointments that cross administration lines. The incoming administration only gets to appoint replacements for those whose terms have expired. I seriously doubt either administration will make appointments that help our cause. Cheap broadband access for all is the Holy Grail for both parties regardless of who gets hurt in the process.
Mike
WA3KYY
This is all pretty funny, because how many of us park our antennas next to power lines anyway, and for folks on small lots like myself who work mainly hf, we have already done the best we can.
I just hope our utility company decides this is too much of an investment, and BPL doesn't come to town.
Mike - K9MI
hb9vid
11-01-2004, 04:10 PM
I think you guys have to stop to give help in case of emergency or other helpful service (MARS, ARES, and so on)
Just to see how mutch you are realy just a "routine communications and hobby activities." .
And Yea just move you big tower a few feet that's so easy !!!
I'm realy sorry for you guys.
73,
Arno (hb9vid, kf6ayi)
W1CAR
11-01-2004, 04:37 PM
http://www.abmtools.com/images/Cutters_and_Pincers/Bolt_Cutter.jpg
k4wwa
11-01-2004, 04:50 PM
It,s nonthing but a hobby..........and dont' forget that!!!
Quote[/b] (ai4cb @ Nov. 01 2004,07:15)]Quote[/b] (w6em @ Nov. 01 2004,07:28)]73, unless you have something more than argument for a response. #You are beginning to sound like another troll.
You made the assertion that the 14th Amendment to the Constitution would protect ham radio. I asked you to explain how but you won't. So who's the troll, then?
Look, buddy, you obviously didn't read the examples in my first post that clearly showed how the FCC's regulation was not "fair and balanced". #:-) #(and if you did, you didn't comprehend - are you suffering from Dubyah syndrome?)
Not too difficult to understand. #That is if you know what "equal" means. #
Go troll someplace else.
Quote[/b] (k4wwa @ Nov. 01 2004,09:50)]It,s nonthing but a hobby..........and dont' forget that!!!
There is someone who is completely out of tune with Amateur Radio.
It is far, far more than a hobby. It is a SERVICE to the people of our country, and internationally, in addition to being a hobby. The service part comes first, too.
Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Nov. 01 2004,12:28)]Quote[/b] (k4wwa @ Nov. 01 2004,09:50)]It,s nonthing but a hobby..........and dont' forget that!!!
There is someone who is completely out of tune with Amateur Radio.
It is far, far more than a hobby. It is a SERVICE to the people of our country, and internationally, in addition to being a hobby. The service part comes first, too.
only in our minds. Certainly the FCC doesn't see us as a service...
Quote[/b] (k7fd @ Nov. 01 2004,12:30)]Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Nov. 01 2004,12:28)]Quote[/b] (k4wwa @ Nov. 01 2004,09:50)]It,s nonthing but a hobby..........and dont' forget that!!!
There is someone who is completely out of tune with Amateur Radio. #
It is far, far more than a hobby. #It is a SERVICE to the people of our country, and internationally, in addition to being a hobby. #The service part comes first, too.
only in our minds. Certainly the FCC doesn't see us as a service...
Of course they do. Read the regs sometimes.
Also Dept. of Homeland Security fully recognmizes the value of A.R.S.
If you are in it just for the hobby aspects that's fine. Just don't pretend that those who put in countless hours and dollars serving the public interest don't exist. They do.
Also remember that EVERY significant advance in electronics communications, with the single exception of the transistor and related integrated circuit, came from the ranks of Amateur Radio. Including the home computer you are using right now.
Quote[/b] (ai4cb @ Nov. 01 2004,12:47)]Quote[/b] (k7fd @ Nov. 01 2004,14:30)]only in our minds. Certainly the FCC doesn't see us as a service...
Yes. As far as the FCC is concerned, and they've said so, it's a hobby that occassionally provides emergency communications.
Same thing can be said about the Citizen's Band Service.
Actually, no, that can't be said of CB in the last 20 years or so. Maybe back in the 60s.
k6gty
11-01-2004, 08:01 PM
I don't know why we should be surprised at the FCC's #BPL announcement. #The elite clique at the ARRL has failed us again. #The latest foul-up by the ARRL is the band width issue. #I become quite worried when I hear, 'Hi, I'm from the ARRL, and I'm here to help you". #NOT!. #I feel that the only way we hams can be "saved" is for the entire ARRL ruling elite clique to go back to CB, or where ever they came from. #MD
Quote[/b] (k6gty @ Nov. 01 2004,13:01)]I don't know why we should be surprised at the FCC's #BPL announcement. #The elite clique at the ARRL has failed us again. #The latest foul-up by the ARRL is the band width issue. #I become quite worried when I hear, 'Hi, I'm from the ARRL, and I'm here to help you". #NOT!. #I feel that the only way we hams can be "saved" is for the entire ARRL ruling elite clique to go back to CB, or where ever they came from. #MD
No, the way to change it is to join the ARRL, make your views known to the leaders and the rank and file, and vote out the ones you disagree with. IF you have anything better to offer, that is.
k2lck
11-01-2004, 09:13 PM
It is not what our hobby is, it is what those in power think it is. # The felons in washington will sell our frequencies for campaign contributions like the whores they are, and you have just heard official washingtons' first notice of the coming demise of amateur radio. #And some of us don't support ARRL? #We get what we deserve. and I am glad it lasted the 50 years it did for me.. #If I had known what damage campaign contributions could do to our society::::: I would have been a Tory... Long live the King, and could you VE's just make it a little warmer up there???.
Quote[/b] (NY7Q @ Oct. 30 2004,12:06)]Looks like this administration is bent on ruining not only the government of this great country, but radio as well. We need to vote these rascals out in three days...Powell, in his self assured wisdom, doesn't have a clue..(I am a straight ticket republican for 50 years, #who has seen the light)
Amen to that...some hams try to marginalize the political influence, but it's all right there in front of you. #Michael Powell is a mindless party hack, who owes his position because he happens to be Colin Powell's son. #Even if Kerry puts his own mindless party hacks in the FCC, at least we might have a chance at making a difference, because what we've done so far seems to be meaningless to Chairman Powell (rhymes with Mao)...
Quote[/b] (ai4cb @ Nov. 01 2004,12:44)]Maybe you were trying to posit that there must be "equal protection" from even the possibility of interference -whether it actually occurs or not? #
Wow. Good luck in Federal Court with that concept!
lol #"A--I-4-CB" #10-4, good buddy.
Precisely. #You're getting close to Channel 10-4.
What do you think newly created elitist "BPL-free" zones surrounding aircraft and maritime base stations and some federal facilities would be? #
And mandated notching of BPL for federal frequencies. #Frequencies that just might be not as important to life safety and emergency operation as, lets say, frequencies used by the Missouri and California Highway Patrol, the US Forest Service Fire operations, or paramedic units.
All are examples of "possibility of interference" protections based upon NTIA's phase I study results that have no equal provisions for other impacted services in the released Report and Order. The provisions are clearly discriminatory.
Your cite of existing prior language (that is not now largely being adhered to) is also at issue. #Ask the AZ hams who have themselves filed complaints and the ARRL also, on their behalf with no FCC enforcement action after months of proven harmful interference to amateur communications.
10-7 from here on out, good buddy. #Find someone else to argue your illogic.
Lee
W6EM
why don't you quit waisting your time on the internet and start writing letters to the FCC? Make those bastards haul your letters in by the hand-truck, by the way I do what I want to do, it's called freedom and as far as I'm concerned talking on the radio to someone 10,000 miles away that is willing to talk to me and pass the time on this sick, boring, piece of crap planet that we all live on is fun and if you hall monitor know-it-alls don't like that then turn your radio OFF, then you won't have to listen to my lifelong favorite HOBBY. Because that's all that it is! If you want to become MR. IMPORTANT the train and be a cop, a fireman, a clergyman, a governor, a judge< sorry that last one made me laugh till the water I was drinking went out my nose> anyway I think you all get the drift. Ha Ha I'm a lawbreaker for talking on the radio and enjoying every second of it. BPL won't last anyway just wait till the first public utility gets sued for bring lightning into the house and killing someone. I love me I'm sooo controversial.. Your rights are at risk as a free human being on the earth, why don't you wake up and fight back? Make phone calls, write letters, hell, go to Washington and protest. Or just sit home and do what you always do and bitch about it when they come toyour door and ask not politely for your equipment. Oh yeah, and your guns. We need to quit jumping on each other and jump on our senators, remember?,,,that is what they are there for. 73
W1CAR
11-01-2004, 10:55 PM
um.. huh?
Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Nov. 01 2004,13:42)]Quote[/b] (k6gty @ Nov. 01 2004,13:01)]I don't know why we should be surprised at the FCC's #BPL announcement. #The elite clique at the ARRL has failed us again. #The latest foul-up by the ARRL is the band width issue. #I become quite worried when I hear, 'Hi, I'm from the ARRL, and I'm here to help you". #NOT!. #I feel that the only way we hams can be "saved" is for the entire ARRL ruling elite clique to go back to CB, or where ever they came from. #MD
No, the way to change it is to join the ARRL, make your views known to the leaders and the rank and file, and vote out the ones you disagree with. #IF you have anything better to offer, that is.
It seems to me that the ARRL is quite aware of a number of fact-based opinions; I see no evidence that being part of the ARRL has added any impact into this R&O.
I am not of the opinion that the ARRL has any ability to push through an "activist" --quote ARRL CEO Dave Sumner K1ZZ--agenda. It may have the ability to work together with Access BPL folks, but I see no evidence for that approach being implemented at present.
I do not wish to be part of an activist organization. Ergo I am a member of he Appalachian Mountain Club, but NOT the Sierra Club.
When an activist philosophy dominates a non-profit, it is rare, if ever, that said oganization drops that approach, from my observations.
This philosophy is set by the ARRL Board of Directors, and not the rank and file membership, as far as I am aware.
On the other hand, maybe I will be surprised.
73,
Chip N1IR
w5hze
11-02-2004, 04:57 AM
(yawn), (wearily shake head in amazement)
Talk about the Eveready Bunny . . . . it just keeps on going, and going, and going . . . . .
Think I'll see if there's anything interesting on the bands yet, or find a thread where an intelligent discussion is taking place. #Heck, maybe I can find one with no trolls or half-baked "experts" who didn't even bother to read & understand the background material on the subject under discussion.
..._._
K7JAZ
11-02-2004, 07:42 AM
Quote[/b] (n1ir @ Nov. 01 2004,02:25)]Also, I sound much more like SRV, Danny Gatton, and Roy Buchanan these days than Jimi (RIP). I've been playing for almost 40 years and have the calluses to prove it:-)
73,
Chip N1IR
Another quote from N1IR - "Could you kindly provide some info on previous emergency ham communications you have provided...?"
Well, Chip, could you kindly provide some info qualifying comparing yourself to the above-named guitarists?
I played guitar with Gladys Knight's band and with several other big names over the past 30 years, so I'm interested in a player who claims to play like SRV, Danny Gatton and Roy Buchanan.
well,well,well mr. wb5hze are not you the cat's meow if this topic bores you sooo much then realize this.... you will lose your rights if you do not pay attention, BPL is just a small part of it . I am not your enemybrother . I just want you guys to see where this is going. and by the way the arrl is not the same organizasion (myspelling again) that it used to be, they can be bought too! I just want to talk on the radio as you all do.... don't be fooled a lot of people are jelous about that... listen we are lover's of radio .. don't let it be taken away! please vcote your conscience, but for GOD'S sake vote vote vote 73
Quote[/b] (K7JAZ @ Nov. 02 2004,00:42)][quote=n1ir,Nov. 01 2004,02:25]Also, I sound much more like SRV, Danny Gatton, and Roy Buchanan these days than Jimi (RIP). I've been playing for almost 40 years and have the calluses to prove it:-)
73,
Chip N1IR
Chip, you are so full of %#@ it absolutely amazes me. #Now you're BSing on my turf. #I played guitar with Gladys Knight's band and with several other big names over the past 30 years, and I say you are full of it.
Just telling you what I sound like. The fact that folks like Danny and Roy --especially Danny--had profound frustrations in their later lives , based upon the difficulty of making a living, only indicates why I am not doing gigs--and haven't for almost 20 years. (Note that both Roy and Danny committed suicide.) Even Mike Bloomfield (another suicide) was picking up gigs as a plumber and carpenter in his last years (great professions, but tough on the hands). Rest in peace for these guys. Life is damned tough.:-(
Danny was a little jazzy for me, but his fast tele style resonates. Listening to Roy taught me how to 'cry' on the tele. SRV had a nice, rock edge to his blues. ( The Montreux live sessions are incredible, BTW--on DVD). He be just SOOO sweet.
I saw Danny several times in DC, and Roy a bunch, back with the original Snake Stretchers. SRV I caught once, on an off-night, unfortunately.
It's not hard to sound like these guys; what's hard to do is to sound like yourself, and find out exactly what that is. It's fascinating to see how it evolves with time; and what piece