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ad8bc
10-26-2004, 12:39 PM
(I don't know if you reference other articles but this is a very informative trade-oriented look at RFID tags I found in a magazine I recieve at work -- Bill AD8BC)

From EDN Magazine (a trade publication) October 14, 2004, EDN Magazine (http://www.edn.com)

Three decades ago, a 10-pack of Juicy Fruit gum and a cashier at a Marsh supermarket in Troy, OH, were the participants in the first successful test of what we now know as the UPC (universal product code) bar-code system. Evolution of the bar-code system continues; for example, US and European standards-group representatives recently agreed on a common 14-digit format that, beginning in January 2005, bar-code readers worldwide must support. But, all in all, bar codes today are mature, pervasive, and well-understood. (Some ex-presidents may beg to differ on that last point, though. Remember George HW Bush's befuddlement when, on the 1992 primary-campaign trail in New Hampshire, he unsuccessfully attempted to use a bar-code scanner in a grocery store?)

Technology marches on, though, and an up-and-coming contender to the product-identification throne has emerged: the RFID (radio-frequency-identification) device. Ironically, RFID technology is almost as old as bar codes, which in 1934 received their first patents. Great Britain's Royal Air Force employed RFID-like techniques to distinguish between friendly and enemy incoming airplanes during World War II, and Harry Stockman's October 1948 treatise, "Communication by Means of Reflected Power" in The Proceedings of the IRE (Institute of Radio Engineers) first detailed the theory and implementation of RFID. Prolific inventor Charles Walton in 1973 received the first RFID patent for a passive RFID-based door-lock reader. Walton coincidentally shares the same last name as the late Sam Walton, the founder of Wal-Mart, which, along with the US Department of Defense, has played a leading role in spurring current RFID deployments...........................


(For the rest of the story, go to
Reading Between the Lines: RFID's confront the venerable bar code (http://www.reed-electronics.com/ednmag/article/CA468418?text=rfid)

n7vr
10-27-2004, 04:58 PM
This was a great peice of information. I am currently working on RFID systems in my work and found it helpful to see an upbeat story with information on the RFID systems. The reason I became an Ham operator in the first place was the ability to experiment and fulfill my esire to learn new things. I intend to leave it to others to make the results good or bad:)

I thank the contributer for posting this.

Jim Fuller
N7VMR

n0nwo
10-27-2004, 06:23 PM
My concerns about this are more environmental. First off is the higher power consumption's. also is the fact of every product having a small battery operated transmitter. What will billions of batteries and computer chips do to the environment. You will also need to be very careful, not to put your coke or gum too close to a floppy disk, film,cassette tapes and video tapes. So what's wrong with bar codes anyway?

Minton - n0nwo

AD6ZP
10-27-2004, 06:25 PM
Thanks for the historical data. The company where I am working is in the process of introduceing RFID devices which may be seen at McDonalds in the near future.

AD6ZP
10-27-2004, 06:28 PM
Quote[/b] (n0nwo @ Oct. 27 2004,11:23)]My concerns about this are more environmental. #First off is the higher power consumption's. also is the fact of every product having a small battery operated transmitter. #What will billions of batteries and computer chips do to the environment. #You will also need to be very careful, #not to put your coke or gum too close to a floppy disk, film,cassette tapes and video tapes. #So what's wrong with bar codes anyway?

Minton - n0nwo
RFID devices are capactive and have no power of their own. The reader is what transmittes to the chip and the chip will respond. These have been used in dogs and cats for years. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

ad8bc
10-27-2004, 07:02 PM
Most RFID tags are passive (somehow modulating an incoming carrier). They get their power from the external souce. However, some are powered, when they need to have a higher range. They are more expensive, however, and most applications will use the passive ones, since most RFID applications are disposable.

We use them for access control where I work... and also we are a major material handling company that does work for Wal Mart (mentioned in the article).

Oh, and you are welcome, N7VMR. I get the hard copy of the magazine at work and thought it was a good article. Thinks like RFID tags don't scare me (with respect to interference to ham bands). I don't necessarily mind the idea of BPL, either, except for two things: #1 With power lines, and the associated BPL data, being "incidental radiators", they should follow Part 15 rules like everybody else, and #2 BPL's engineering just isn't sound, trying to stuff RF down an unshielded copper wire. If they can make BPL work without any interference, I'm all for it... but I digress. With most RFID tags being passive, I'm not too worried about ham radio interference.

K8ERV
10-27-2004, 07:19 PM
Yes, tnx for the article. I printed all 7 pages.

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

VK1OD
10-27-2004, 10:22 PM
Quote[/b] (ad8bc @ Oct. 27 2004,12:02)]I don't necessarily mind the idea of BPL, either, except for two things: #1 With power lines, and the associated BPL data, being "incidental radiators", they should follow Part 15 rules like everybody else, and #2 BPL's engineering just isn't sound, trying to stuff RF down an unshielded copper wire. If they can make BPL work without any interference, I'm all for it... but I digress.
Do you really understand the strength and impact of interference that is compliant with Part 15?

If you did, I doubt that you would be comfortable with the S9+++ interference levels that could be continuous across the bands emanating from equipment that was compliant with 15.209.

Perhaps you are under the mistaken impression that to be in compliance with Part 15 means "without any interference". Worst case interference that was compliant with 15.209 would effectively end your HF experience.

Owen

ad8bc
10-27-2004, 10:40 PM
Quote[/b] (VK1OD @ Oct. 27 2004,15:22)]Do you really understand the strength and impact of interference that is compliant with Part 15?
Thanks for the clarification on Part 15. Perhaps I am mistaken. I was under the impression that Part 15 devices are not to cause "harmful" interference with primary spectrum occupiers. I guess the definition of "harmful" is up for grabs.

I want to be clear on this, I am OK with the idea of BPL. If it coexisted with licensed services without my idea of harmful interference. Which is, I don't want to hear it. My other point applies here... it is a poorly designed idea to send RF down an unshielded conductor. There is so much loss that you have to hit it with high power to get anything at the output. It is poor engineering practice. The fact that the FCC is so hyped up about it makes me cringe. Anybody with an idea of how radio works knows this. Heck, in my line of work I have enough trouble with 24 VDC devices near a 480VAC motor. You have enough trouble keeping 60Hz clean on a conductor. Why try to put RF down it?

Anyway, thanks for calling me on it, Owen.

N0MLR
10-28-2004, 01:15 AM
Lets see now..... # RF ID in your burger at McD's and in the coke you drink and the Medical Examiner wont even have to cut you open to know what your last meal was. We also need to keep in mind the Big help this will be to Law enforcement. Tags on everything and they can stand in the street and know whats in your Home. They will also know what items you have that may be Hazardous or in Illegal Quantities. Oh can you imagine how Giddy the Alcohol Tobaco and Fire Arms will be when they can stand in the street and tell if you own one box of Amunition more than the law allows and still be considered for personal use not a Business?
Oh and what about when a Criminal can get all this info driving thru your Neighborhood? He will know exactly which house to hit and what he will be looking for. Dont think for a second that the ability to decode this information won't fall into the hands of Criminals. I can see in now .... Web auctions for RFID decoders every where.
The information presented aludes to the fact that when Hi Power long range RFID tags are available in Quantities that over come the Economy of Scale the older Passive ones will be obsolete.
Big Brother is out there and he WILL be Watching YOU.
Anyone remember when they told us that the Social Security Numebr was only for Social Security Use and would not be a form of ID?
Its Human Nature to use information if its available and it may not all be legal or harmless. Just look at the intenet as a prime example. Does the word Cookies, Worms and Virus come to Mind?
Well yall sleep well now Yah Hear!

Greg Dunn / N0MLR

VU3SNM
10-28-2004, 03:28 AM
Very interesting information. I am a marine biologist by profession and we have been using this technology at work to tag a threatened species of starfish to gain information on their behaviour. Most of the tags we use are passive. It is still quite expenvise and I really hope the costs of the "tags" come down.
Thanks for the interesting article
73
Sasi
VK5SN / VU3SNM / 9V1SM (ex)

K2WH
10-28-2004, 01:21 PM
If I understand this correctly, didn't the ARRL oppose the use of widespread RFID systems as they transmit in the UHF region around 432 mhz?

K2WH

w1ppy
10-28-2004, 04:04 PM
Not to mention the tags on clothes in stores. Geez, back in the early 80s I worked on some of Sensormatic's early equipment and that's what it was, RFID - of course, w/o the ID part, just as an "intrusion" alarm.
Also, the RFID technique has been used by dairy & beef operations for years as well, in a small capsule the animal swallows which resides in one of its stomachs for (some amount of time); Inventory mgt & data collection everyt time they walk thru the gate.
Just another piece of the technology pie !

n0nwo
10-28-2004, 04:50 PM
thanks for explaining the passive nature of these. That makes me feel better. I think a lot of this hype of Big Brother traking our every move is SiFi BS. How and why would they go to the trouble to process that much data when they already suffer from data overload?

Minton - n0nwo

WK2X
10-28-2004, 05:47 PM
The RFID devices I've worked with were 900MHz. Right smack in the middle of the ham band that's up there, but still...they could be heard from maybe 50 feet away by my mobile rig (which does have 900MHz receive, btw).

To the "big brother is watching you" poster: I think a possible solution would be to simply remove the RFID tag from your box of ammo and throw it out with the trash. I personally don't mind such things, as long as I have a way to "shut it off" and effectively dis-allow the intrusions you describe if I wish.

73,

WK2X

AD6ZP
10-28-2004, 08:43 PM
Quote[/b] (N0MLR @ Oct. 27 2004,18:15)]Lets see now..... # RF ID in your burger at McD's and in the coke you drink and the Medical Examiner wont even have to cut you open to know what your last meal was. We also need to keep in mind the Big help this will be to Law enforcement. Tags on everything and they can stand in the street and know whats in your Home. They will also know what items you have that may be Hazardous or in Illegal Quantities. Oh can you imagine how Giddy the Alcohol Tobaco and Fire Arms will be when they can stand in the street and tell if you own one box of Amunition more than the law allows and still be considered for personal use not a Business?
Oh and what about when a Criminal can get all this info driving thru your Neighborhood? He will know exactly which house to hit and what he will be looking for. Dont think for a second that the ability to decode this information won't fall into the hands of Criminals. I can see in now .... Web auctions for RFID decoders every where.
The information presented aludes to the fact that when Hi Power long range RFID tags are available in Quantities that over come the Economy of Scale the older Passive ones will be obsolete.
Big Brother is out there and he WILL be Watching YOU.
Anyone remember when they told us that the Social Security Numebr was only for Social Security Use and would not be a form of ID?
Its Human Nature to use information if its available and it may not all be legal or harmless. Just look at the intenet as a prime example. Does the word Cookies, Worms and Virus come to Mind?
Well yall sleep well now Yah Hear!

Greg Dunn / N0MLR
I didn't say anything about being in the food. The company I work for makes POS terminals (Point of Sales).

But they could tag you like what has been done with dogs. As a matter of fact they want to put your medicial records on a chip and put it in you. There thinking is that every doctor that you saw would have your records.

Talk about big brother they could track you where ever you went and what every you did. The hobbnail jack booted BATF would be one of the lest of your worries. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

AD6ZP
10-28-2004, 08:50 PM
Quote[/b] (VU3SNM @ Oct. 27 2004,20:28)]Very interesting information. I am a marine biologist by profession and we have been using this technology at work to tag a threatened species of starfish to gain information on their behaviour. Most of the tags we use are passive. It is still quite expenvise and I really hope the costs of the "tags" come down.
Thanks for the interesting article
73
Sasi
VK5SN / VU3SNM / 9V1SM (ex)
I don't know about your tags. The ones that will be used for inventory tracking have come done in price to about 1 cent.

Wal_Mart has created quite a bit of activity in the RFID market when they mandated that all their larges vendors must use these tags.

wa9cwx
10-30-2004, 03:44 PM
Lets see now...Internet access to or from every item that uses the power grid...ID tags in every item we own or use...ID tages on or even IN our bodies....Supercomputers that use quantum based technologies...I wonder...Could any of this be used against us?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif? . . . NAW. Our government will protect us. GO FOR IT !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

k5lxp
11-04-2004, 04:19 PM
RFID typically runs at Part 15 levels but this isn't like BPL, which is broadband. #Most RFID transmitters are merely a carrier, some have data but it's fairly narrow banded and strictly regulated. #Systems like the Sensormatic tags run at 13.56MHz, which is a worldwide ISM band. #The rest reside mostly at 900MHz and up, at power levels the same as most cell phones. #Yes, some run at 433MHz but you won't see much of those in the US, though they are legal here. #Same as remote weather stations, wireless video, remote car starters and other Part 15 devices. #As far as you 'big brother' folks go, defeating these tags is as simple as squashing it, or putting it in a shielded box or static bag. #The range of the tiny passive tags is very limited, usually a few feet or less. #So the notion of "reading" all the products in your home is just not possible. Wally World isn't using RFID for theft control, but inventory management. #RFID used in parcel delivery allows you to see the contents of a box or bin without opening it up, a boon for the likes of FedEx, UPS or USPS. #The rail industry has been using RFID on railcars for almost 2 decades now, and there are many homeland security RFID applications being developed for sea containers coming into US ports. #Both of my dogs have RFID, 'cause they're too stupid to find their way home. #Many states use RFID for toll road payment. #RFID is up and coming, and it's applications are limited only to the imagination. #Not sure if it will ever replace UPC but for a lot of applications, it already has.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM

w1yw
11-07-2004, 01:07 PM
Quote[/b] (AD6ZP @ Oct. 28 2004,13:50)]I don't know about your tags. The ones that will be used for inventory tracking have come done in price to about 1 cent.

Wal_Mart has created quite a bit of activity in the RFID market when they mandated that all their larges vendors must use these tags.
No;no.no.no.

There is no one-cent tag.

There are far more expensive tags right now, and these are used on palettes and boxes, not individual items or products at the consumer level.

It is very challenging, from a cost of goods perspective, to have a 1 cent tag. No one who is doing so--anyone?-- will stay in business for long.

73,
Chip N1IR

ka5s
11-08-2004, 04:47 AM
Quote[/b] (k5lxp @ Nov. 04 2004,09:19)]Yes, some run at 433MHz but you won't see much of those in the US, though they are legal here. #Same as
Of some interest with respect to 433.92 MHz RFID; MFJ is selling a low-power ATV transmitter that can be set at 433.95 Mhz.

Hmm.

Cortland

G1bnd
11-10-2004, 04:42 AM
Quote[/b] (n0nwo @ Oct. 27 2004,11:23)]My concerns about this are more environmental. #First off is the higher power consumption's. also is the fact of every product having a small battery operated transmitter. #What will billions of batteries and computer chips do to the environment. #You will also need to be very careful, #not to put your coke or gum too close to a floppy disk, film,cassette tapes and video tapes. #So what's wrong with bar codes anyway?

Minton - n0nwo
The "tag" carries no power at all. Each tag consists basically of a chip and an antenna. Energy for the chip is provided by the energy transmitted by the reader. In this configuration it is possible to read tags over distances exceeding 3 meters. This site carries a lot of info regarding this exciting aspect of radio.
http://trolleyscan.com/

G1bnd
11-10-2004, 04:54 AM
Quote[/b] (WK2X @ Oct. 28 2004,10:47)]The RFID devices I've worked with were 900MHz. #Right smack in the middle of the ham band that's up there, but still...they could be heard from maybe 50 feet away by my mobile rig (which does have 900MHz receive, btw).

To the "big brother is watching you" poster: #I think a possible solution would be to simply remove the RFID tag from your box of ammo and throw it out with the trash. #I personally don't mind such things, as long as I have a way to "shut it off" and effectively dis-allow the intrusions you describe if I wish.

73,

WK2X
If it is a passive tag, it will only transmit data as long as it is in the RF field of the reader. As the chip requires the RF field to charge the capacitor for transmit, the chip if not in a sleep mode after transmit, would be incapable of maintaining transmit for any period of time outside its reader field. Typically operating within reader antenna restraints and power levels there would be little or no chance of unwanted tag transmission at distances more than a few meters from the reader. The real challenge in developing this technology is to get tags to read whilst attached to radio frequency absorbant materials such as liquids (particularly oil) and on radio reflective materials such as metal.